Self-Indulgence: A Chronic Human Failing

BGONE: “Just one little problem. How did Joe Smith verify that the supernatural being he spoke with and got the straight fact from, how do we know that one came from God and not the other unmentionable place.”

Men don’t gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles. We, as well as Joseph Smith, are known by our fruits. Our Father doesn’t give ME stones but YOU bread when we ask for bread; He gives us both bread. He doesn’t give ME a serpent but YOU a fish when we ask for fish. He gives us both fish.

How can one tell the difference between good and evil spirits? Doctrine & Covenants Section 129, available at Scriptures.lds.org answers that question (it’s just a short section).

Sister Mary Lisa:

"Wink"

tDMg
LdsNana

To My Friends of Faith,,,, on an unrelated topic that requires our attention....
Recently a friend at our church brought this "film" to my attention.
Her son apparently was sent this web link from someone.

It's a movie clip (that has been recently released, or is about to,,, I'm not sure),,
anyway, it depicts Mormons as flesh eating ghouls, and it is just awful. www.thebookofzombie.com

On behalf of myself and my husband, and our Mormon friends,
I would like to make sure that young people are NOT subjected to this terrible conception of our faith.

please let me know if you are able to help.

regards, Betty Toms

Great comments Mr. O. It is so clear to me that if the world's populations concentrated on the this basic tenet of Christ's teaching "to love God and love our neighbor" we would truly not have to worry about the deadly sins whatever they may be. In fact, though I don't know a lot about all the world's customs and cultures, surely this idea of loving God (whomever that might be) and doing good to others isn't uniquely Christian. Do we not all want the best for our friends and loved ones? Why can't we extend that love and consideration for others outside our homes, communities and country borders? If we all followed the example of the city of Enoch were all people were truly "of one heart and mind" - the world would be a better place.

Parker!

How nice to see you again! And thank you for remembering about my little quest for... Chicago. :-)

Oh, and I can think of nobody finer I'd rather hang out with than you three. Just sayin'...

"Nice to know that you are still out there being sinful and inquisitive."

Being sinful?? Methinks thou dost project too much. ;)

Miss you too, Phaedrus. I think my sis is gonna be in your neck of the woods in a few months...I'll let you know.

Mayan: Sorry my pachyderm pal. I offer the same teeth-grinding congrats to you, another Fenway Fiend. :)

Henry is correct regarding our mutual inability to avoid philosophizing. But I must admit that I would never have set foot in Psych 101 if I could have mastered plot and character development. In my opinion, writers rule.

And as for you SML, didn't your mother warn you about hanging out with the likes of the three of us? Lounging about on street corners yelling out provocative premises and rude interrogatives to good Christian passers-by. (read with Python-esque accent)

Miss you guys. Nice to know that you are still out there being sinful and inquisitive.

Fondly dreaming, as you know. We shall reign supreme in our little corner of heaven, I'm certain of it. Imagine the fun times we'll have as we make up how we think the world should be. Oh, wait. We already do that now! Fun times, fun times.

I've missed you, HJ.

Men like Phaedrus and myself HAVE to get philosophical. We can't do anything practical. That we leave to the womenfolk.

(of course I'm only half right. P helps people deal with traumas and other vital things. I just write aesthetic novels.)

I do think, however, that I have a moral obligation to pat Mike O on the back when he is ecumenical. I don't see a hint in his post here that one must even believe in Christ.

I hope you are still dreaming of our future alliance in the Celestial Kingdom.

I love it when my friend Phaedrus and Henry James get all philosophical with each other. Does my little black heart some good.

Hi to you too, Mayan Elephant. And why did you change your name, RTC? What's up with that? I thought name changes only happen in the temple...*wink*

Phaedrus, are you passing out sox attaboys and forgetting to deliver equally? shame, how dare forget your fellow man/mayan in such a way?

did you read the link to bensons talk about pride? that gem is a classic. this was written long before the internets were available in millions of homes.

speaking of lying and vanity and pride. benson said this: "Think of the many who are less active members of the Church because they were offended and their pride will not allow them to forgive or fully sup at the Lord’s table.

Think of the tens of thousands of additional young men and couples who could be on missions except for the pride that keeps them from yielding their hearts unto God."

this is such a lie and disgrace on the part of the leaders of the church and of otterson. sure, that love thy neighbor and love god stuff sounds all nice and genuine. but when it is partnered with the prophet saying that anyone that leaves the church or does not go on a mission is proud, the ultimate sin, thats junk.

people leave the church for many diverse reasons, including the simple little fact that the mormon church is not what the church claims. it is not what otterson claims, his label of pride and the association it has to people leaving the church is ridiculous. perhaps he should go back and watch Helen Whitneys "The Mormons", where theories and insults like this one, from benson, are discussed.

Phaedrus, are you passing out sox attaboys and forgetting to deliver equally? shame, how dare forget your fellow man/mayan in such a way?

did you read the link to bensons talk about pride? that gem is a classic. this was written long before the internets were available in millions of homes.

speaking of lying and vanity and pride. benson said this: "Think of the many who are less active members of the Church because they were offended and their pride will not allow them to forgive or fully sup at the Lord’s table.

Think of the tens of thousands of additional young men and couples who could be on missions except for the pride that keeps them from yielding their hearts unto God."

this is such a damn lie and disgrace on the part of the leaders of the church and of otterson. sure, that love thy neighbor and love god stuff sounds all nice and genuine. but when it is partnered with the prophet saying that anyone that leaves the church or does not go on a mission is proud, the ultimate sin, thats junk.

people leave the church for many diverse reasons, including the simple little fact that the mormon church is not what the church claims. it is not what otterson claims, his label of pride and the association it has to people leaving the church is ridiculous. perhaps he should go back and watch Helen Whitneys "The Mormons", where theories and insults like this one, from benson, are discussed.

Henry, my friend, nice to have contact with you again. And, I would be craven not to congratulate you (through clinched teeth) on the Sawx. In the midst of these dark weeks I long for the words; "pitchers and catchers reported today....."

Clarity, do you think that Christ's refusal to delineate between guilty and innocent blood implies that all killing is sinful? Even in self-defense, wars of defense or pre-emption, capital punishment etc?

'allo Phaedrus. Long time no see (speaking in platitudes).

You are of course correct, as usual.

The thing i liked about Mr O's post is that
a. he avoided ANY hell fire and damnation rhetoric, which i think is something Mormons actually do pretty well.
b. he clearly indicates that the important thing is loving your neighbor (admittedly NOT an original thought) rather than believing that an Angel appeared to Joseph Smith or that the Book of Mormon is authentic.

And, it doesn't matter whether one believes in the Mormon view of the afterlife, or the Catholic or the Hindu or the Buddhist (there is none).

What matters is how you treat your fellow humans.

Best to you
Henry

I believe the he is speaking of interpreting the two great commandments of Christ as meaning that the guilt or innocence of blood is insignificant. Shedding blood that has been viewed as "guilty blood", as you referenced by the 9/11 hijackers, would not be violating the list of seven, but would clearly be violating Jesus' words.

There is little to disagree with in Mr. O's latest post, because he takes refuge in familiar platitudes. You'll be hard pressed to find anyone who will argue in favor of shedding "innocent blood," but oceans of disputation as to whose blood is actually innocent, and why that may or may not be the case. The 9/11 hijackers believed that the blood spilled in their attacks was made guilty through complicity in the activities of a guilty western ethos. It is in operational definitions of terms such as innocent, gluttony, pride etc that the material issues lie.

Lance:

First thing, get your supernatural beings straight. Satan is the accuser that uses a lie detector to determine if the reborn dead were sinners in their previous life. Pictures of Satan at http://www.hoax-buster.org that date Moses.

I was talking about Lucifer the angel that wanted to be God. Evidently he had enough power that he thought he could throw God out of heaven and seat Himself on God's throne. The Lucifer story and not Satan story is at http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul

Clearly, sacred scriptures tells us that the supernatural being in the famous burning bush that conscripted Moses to lead "His" people out of bondage in Egypt was actually Lucifer. So we can say that Lucifer has the power to do all the things mentioned in the Bible/sacred scriptures.

The question I asked is how do you and I mean you know any encounter like Moses or Joseph Smith had was actually with God or God's agent(s) and not Lucifer or some other angel that got "ideas" about being God. I'll simplify that. What's the difference between Lucifer and God.

We know that Satan stays in place giving the lie detector test, is actually an agent of God doing what St Peter is recently credited with doing and never speaks to any live human. It's a demonstration of either larceny, (a con) or ignorance to run the two together and say they are one and the same angel. While you're at it maybe you can tell the forum why religious folk insist on doing that, confusing Satan and Lucifer? What are they, (you?) hiding? Looks like a cover-up to me.

BEGONE's post typafies something that has always interested me. Which is how so many eagerly desire to attribute Satan so much more power and capability than God. Clearly Satan has much power to decieve as you look at the pursuits men chase, he seems to easily trap many in his worldly snares.

Yet God does continue to speak to man today as he always has and will always continue to do as he is unchanging. One simply has to align his desires and life with God and seek to do his will to begin to understand and see God's very powerful continued hand and revelation in the world.

David and Ghostbuster,
'Nice to hear from each of you.

Carol,
Also enjoyable to hear from you. I hope you are enjoying your studies of the "trip to Chicago".

David,
Since you mentioned CARMS, perhaps you could use your influence with them (I tried unsucessfully twice a year ago or so) to get them to at least be a bit more accurate by removing the words "outer darkness" from the brief section about "to LDS" since the LDS teachings would be that someone who left the LDS church would either 1) receive the loving influence of their parents in the spirit world (if the parents had been active LDS) to draw them back into the fold, or 2) if they still refused that loving opportunity but lived honorably they would inherit the terrestrial kingdom, which has the presence of Christ and is therefore pretty much what evangelicals describe as "heaven".

Also, David, since you're a lover of the Bible, not to toot my own horn but to illustrate that LDS do have the teachings of the Bible in our hearts, I did an exercise that maybe you could try, by using Word to test your memory of as many verses as you can type from memory with the Bible closed and of course not using the Internet as a source. I posted my result as a couple of entries in the "Inexhaustible Treasure" comments section in Brother Otterson's blog here in "On Faith". (I'd be interested in your results.) (By the way, if you look at what I typed I realize you will find many memory lapses, but at least I got many right as far as being close to word-for-word. It was a fun memory exercise.) Have a good year, all.

Hey Ghostbuster,

How ya been man?

I've really been into philosophy lately myself. You ever read anything by Ravi Zacharias?

He's a wonderful Christian philosopher. He's taught me a lot about the philosophy of the Christian worldview.

Hope all is well with you.

Take care

Hey all,

I thought I'd pop in and and say hello real quick too.

Parker, I'm glad to hear your son is doing well in Iraq. That is great news.

David, I will try to check out that blog sometime though I'm more into chatting about philosophy than debating theology.

HJ, Isn't the greatest of the 7 deadly sins "bad writing"? ;)

Mr. Otterson, thank you for a great post.

regards

Hello Parker!

I'm doing great. I've been studying a lot lately...learning more and more about Christian apologetics and the such. I thank you for your concern about Nephi's journey and all, but I still am very much against the teachings of the mormon church. I do not want you to take that personal Parker because I respect you highly, but the more I research mormonism, the more I see that it doesn't add up. But I appreciate your concern.

I hope all is well and I have prayred for you Parker. I'm glad to hear your son is doing well over there. That's great news! I just thought I'd pop my head in and see if you all are still around and yes indeed!

I actually post a lot on a different blog now.

christiandiscussionforums.org

It's a great site for practicing apologetics and to also debate and inform others of the truth of Jesus Christ. I have actually witnessed a few conversions on this site. I know you may not be happy about this, but two of them were mormons who after extensive tries in defending the mormon faith could not longer admit to it's legitamacy.

It is a great site for witnessing and I'm glad to be a part of it. For now, I just popped in to see what's happening and to wish everyone a happy new year and a big hello.

Hope all is well.

yet without selfishness there is no sin.

Now we're getting somewhere. LDS isn't one of those cheap, imported, made in Italy religions.

Just one little problem. How did Joe Smith verify that the supernatural being he spoke with and got the straight fact from, how do we know that one came from God and not the other unmentionable place.

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul proves that Moses sold his soul for the wealth of earth. How did old Joe make out after he was visited by angels? I understand that Muhammad had a similar kind of encounter with supernatural being(s).

Sale of soul is said to bring the wealth of earth to the seller except there are so many willing to pay for a ticket to hell that only those leading the multitudes to hell are rewarded here and now. Everyone else, the ones praying "God's" fee to the ministry will get their reward in the next life.

What do you mean they're getting rewarded right now? Sub prime what? Foreclosed? $4 gasoline? Business failing? Lost job? What did you expect? Get a real God already!

In fact, the Bible offers other choices or lists of sins. For instance, in Proverbs:

These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."

Above mentioned characteristics can be frequently found with the present administration, right from day one when this President was inaugurated. Remember that cowboy phrase" Bring 'em on"!! Pride, lies, arrogance, division that has been casued by them amongst the public, false witnesses in the form of Roves, DeLays, Rumsfelds, Gonzales and Wolfowitzs is exactly delineated in the above saying.
Blood of innocents, Greed of oil and false prestige is so plainly visible, although they claim to be compassionate conservatives. Sad that Christian voters chose them the second time.

Hi,

I have not been around in a while. In the past I have posted as RTC.

Busy with other things online, and so I have not had as much time to blog. I popped over, and here I find such a lovely topic. Everyone is saying such kind things... wow!

It is so very nice to see many of you that I have posted with in the past. I hope that all is well with each of you, and that you are off to a wonderful new year.

Wouldn't it be nice, if we could 'better' apply the first and second Commandments of God?

Just think

-- Mutual respect would completely soar, and we would actually understand one another!

Thinking of others and their needs, would be our first priority!

Cultural, religious, political and all social differences would dissipate!

There would be no poor amongst us!

This list could easily go on for miles and miles.

Imagine...

LdsNana-AskMorom a.k.a. rTc

David,
Hello and 'hope all is well with your family. I thought you might be interested in the following article about Nephi's journey in the Old World:
http://www.meridianmagazine.com/bookofmormon/080117nephi.html
P.S. A daughter of mine is going to Nova Scotia on mission. My son is doing well in Iraq. (Ghostbuster had asked about him.) I've posted a short response to a November query of yours. Best to you.

Excellent post and very insightful. What a difference it would make if people would focus on the two great commandments.

It would also be helpful if people would judge whether or not someone is a Christian by how they strive to live those two great commandments from the Savior instead of by whether or not they fit into some creed devised by men.

Excellent response Brother Otterson and glad to see you return. I have learned quite a bit from the impressive article you referenced on Pride. I am very thankful that you posted it.

David T

I congratulate you on your perspicacity.

"Good" it not by business. Truth is. And if I can fake that, I consider myself a success.

Love and kisses to you, my kind sir.

Henry:"

Nice article Mr. Otterson. We may not agree on our theology, but I cannot disagree with you on this one.

Nice job.

BTW, hello HJ. I haven't been around in awhile.

I see your still up to no good. :)

Take care.

Greed, greed, greed!!!!

And you can measure it:

Enron: lost jobs, 4,500 and a loss of $80 billion

WorldCom: lost jobs, 17,000 jobs and a loss of $100 billion.

Qwest Communications: lost jobs, 11,000 and a loss of $32 billion.

Sunnis ("Wannabees") vs. Shiites (Iran): 80,000 Iraqi citizens killed and $ 200++ billion to prevent added blood shed in the obvious greed for oil in the 800 year-old blood feud.

That link to the article about pride was great stuff! "The central feature of pride is enmity—enmity toward God and enmity toward our fellowmen..." And it just got better from there. Thanks, Mr. Otterson.

Mr. Otterson,

I usually disagree with you but this time I could not find fault with anything you said.

Mr Otterson

Another sterling column. Congratulations.

Thanks for pointing out the secular nature of the seven deadly sins.

And absolutely correct, shedding innocent blood is far worse than gluttony (have you seen pictures of me?).

Though Pride may lead to the shedding.

Finally, kudos for concentrating on
love our neighbor
and
love whatever we conceive of as God.

Henry

I agree with your idea of focusing on the two great commandments. The Book of Mormon teaches that it's impossible to enumerate all the ways we can sin. We must rely on the Holy Spirit to guide us and protect us.

"But this much I can tell you, that if ye do not watch yourselves, and your thoughts, and your words, and your deeds, and observe the commandments of God, and continue in the faith of what ye have heard concerning the coming of our Lord, even unto the end of your lives, ye must perish. And now, O man, remember, and perish not." (Mosiah 4:30)