ACLU's Request Out of Line

Christianity is a large tent of methods used to meet a wide range of expectations enabling people to find satisfaction in a church.

The use of prayer as a tool for evangelizing is why clerics demand that opportunity in contradiction to Jesus' view of prayer as contained in Matthew, chapter 6. Once it is said aloud for others to hear it ceases to be a "prayer."

If one can't "pray" for themselves, they might try the method used in the orient, prayer wheels, or they can read the "prayers" of other people.

Christian Clergy of the many divisions of Christianity may have an effect on how you accept God, in the religion your were born into, or accepted when older. How your Lifestyle develops, will strengthen your Faith, or change it, or lose it.

I had two pastors, in the Missouri Synod Lutheran Religion. One from Birth until I was 32, when I moved to to suburbs. I had another pastor until I was 50, when I gave up Church for this new understanding, of GOD, God, and Human Life. I did not give up GOD, God or Jesus.

Eternal Physical Life After Birth, is a High Tech Science Lifestyle of the Gods of religion and myth. GOD is the Maker, of the Temple of All Visible and Invisible, Physical and Element Life, as we Know it today.

I accept that Human Pure-bred Asexual Bodies, made in a High Tech Womb, can have Eternal Physical Life After Birth, like the Gods of Religion and myth. I do not accept Religious 'Life' After Death anymore.

The Invisible Elements of our Physical Bodies, made in the female womb, do Return/Decay to the Invisible Elements, in our Solar System and in our Universe. High Tech Science Eternal Physical Life, is possible After Birth, for Humans Born, or 'regenerated' like Jesus with High Tech Science.

Jesus and the 'Father' of Life on Earth, are Physical Higher Human 'Beings', called Religious Spirit 'Being' Gods. Original Humans on Earth, with Eternal Physical High Tech Pure-bred Human Life, lost this Knowledge, when they started Heterosexual Mis-bred Body Birth, and lost their High Tech 'regeneration' Science.

What is Life After Death, but the return of our Living Elements, to GODs Invisible Elements Storehouse, that are Eternal, but change into Life Forms. Without GODs Invisible Elements, to Transmigrate, there is No Life as we Know it, After Birth.

Hmmm, maybe a simple Wicca Spell would be easier/cheaper than "voodooing" dolls that require "hoodooing"/medical treatment after pin pricking.

To wit:

"Three Red Leaves Spell (to protect us from the voodoo and hoodoing of Islam)

This spell is used to protect the mind against things such as nightmares i.e. Islam, negative thoughts (i.e jinn) and “invasions of evil” i.e Islam.

First you must gather three red leaves from any tree, plant or bush. Lay them in a triangle on a flat surface. In the centre of the leaves, place an already lighted candle, and place a few drops of chrysanthemum oil on each leaf.

Say this incantation three times:
“Red leaves, gift from earth,
Birth to death and death to birth,
Keep Islam far away,
Day to night and night to day.”

Then extinguish the candle, and wrap the leaves in a white cloth or pouch. Place this near your bed within three feet of your head and it will stop all nightmares and negative thoughts.

Invocation of the Elements
Air, Fire, Water, Earth,
Elements of astral birth,
I call you now; attend to me!
In the Circle, rightly cast,
Safe from curse or blast,
I call you now, attend to me!

From cave and desert,sea and hill,
By wand, blade,and pentacle,
I call you now, attend to me!
This Is my will, so mote it be"

Paganplace,

Do you have a more truthful invocation?

While religion has many excesses, Free, I'd like to point out that atheism doesn't actually *grant* any IQ points.

Gee, I dunno, Freestinker, I thought the point here was chowtime *without* someone insulting your intelligence.

Freestinker's Grace:

"Gods are a hunch, let's munch!"

Who can find fault with that one?

Janet:

"I would imagine that if prayer before meals were abolished those who wish to "say grace" would manage to sit together so that they could do so.
"End, I would think, of problem."

You'd think so. But the real problem isn't saying 'grace' over meals, ...the problem is people using those meals to isolate non-Christians.

In a climate of real respect for religious diversity, I don't think these sorts of meals would even be a problem... (Then again, the people putting them on wouldn't be trying to use them so.)

The current context is one where Fundamentalists are pursuing sectarian agendas through the military and government, and that just turns the meaning of these things into something divisive and discriminatory.

"A chaplain medicine man/woman who practices voodoo with some hoodooing sounds like a great idea. Just think, how much tax money we would save by pricking Islamic dolls vs. shooting their terrorist back sides."

Your ignorance is showing, again, CCNL. 'Voodoo' and 'Hoodoo' aren't the same as what medicine folk do.

Of course, if you'd like to run on up to the Taliban in battle and score a touch without harming them, I'll gladly bless yer coup-stick. :)

Some of the rules of engagement are different than you like to imagine for that sort of thing. :)

I think you're the one foolish enough to try and 'stick pins' in an 'Islamic doll,' you just do it with blog posts.

I would imagine that if prayer before meals were abolished those who wish to "say grace" would manage to sit together so that they could do so.

End, I would think, of problem.

No one is drafted in to the Service Academies. You know what your getting into when you volunteer. In fact you have to jump through several hoops just to get into one of the service academies. Griping about the prayers at meal time is the least of your average plebes problems.

Priver,
Bright Blessings! Glad to be here.

I don't know. From my experience, while limited as being family of military, is that the military does want to give their Officers as much as possible. They go to these academies to learn to be Ladies and Gentlemen as well as military officers (don't get me started on the double standard between officers and enlisted!). The problem with the military is that if they can't write it down and hand someone a manual about it, they don't know what to do with it.
The military requires written direction for everything and Paganism doesn't lend it's self easily to qualifiers, limitations or outside direction.

In living with my very Catholic father, I have learned that balance is your best bet. Living in harmony can be achieved but everyone has to give. and sometimes that give is in directions you least expect them to be i.e. a Catholic and a Pagan agreeing that saying a Buddhist Thank You is the best compromise.

For the origins, etc. of "grace before and after meals" see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_(prayer)

So Chief Justice Berger wrote: “an invocation for divine guidance is not an establishment of religion,” but simply “a tolerable acknowledgment of beliefs widely held among the people of this country.”

That's a double judgment. First he judged, “a tolerable acknowledgment of beliefs widely held among the people of this country" to be so. Is it? Do people actually know what they believe? He was talking about God?

The belief widely held by Mormons is that Joseph Smith is both truthful and positively identified an angel that could have easily come from Devil to have from God. Is that what the Chief Justice had in mind or was he talking about a widely held belief in God? There's a radical difference between the two.

No one actually believes in God not even you. You believe in Joseph Smith. All Jews and Christians believe in Moses. And Muslims believe in Muhammad. God is everywhere present yet no where to be found not even in faith. I know that's so because God as defined can't be imagined and only idiots believe in things they can't imagine.

The supreme court has ruled and correctly so that there is no union of faith in God and religion. But then it also rules that we are a nation of idiots. Half right is a failing grade. But they're such nice people and so highly educated. Al Capone was a smart dresser.

JJ, you are nuts!

A chaplain medicine man/woman who practices voodoo with some hoodooing sounds like a great idea. Just think, how much tax money we would save by pricking Islamic dolls vs. shooting their terrorist back sides.

And returning to the topic, "just what is the propose of saying grace?? "

A simple grace such as "Thankyou Farmers of the Globe!! Let's eat!!!" should suffice.

Otterson argues that a mandatory meal with a mandatory prayer is not establishment of religion because "prayer in the armed services have become part of the diverse fabric of our pluralistic society." In other words, the military has been violating the Constitution in the past, so let them continue. What utter nonsense.

Proud Pagan,

Merry Meet! It's always heartening to see more of us out there.

I would be interested to see an On Faith column detailing your efforts to be the first Pagan Chaplain in the armed forces. I wonder if that would be possible. I doubt it cause I *think* the armed forces don't want their folks to talk too much about their experiences. I could be wrong though.

I think your idea of saying Thank you is absolutely lovely.

My Father joined the military the year before I was born. Spent 21 years in, proud of everyone of them. My Father is a deeply religious man and having a Catholic Chaplin on duty helped him through many an event: the problem birth of his only daughter, where he almost lost said daughter and wife, while he was on board ship, the loss of his sons to drugs and rebellion, the loss of his mother and father. The chaplain on many a military base was there for him.

I believe chaplains on base serve a need of the men and women who are stationed there and their families. My problem is why aren't there more minority Chaplin's? Why has the military made it so hard for someone who does not practice a majority faith to have a chaplin? The structure of my faith does not meet the requirements of the chaplin review board i.e. there is no main building or functioning head of faith to dictate to the military how to deal with me. That does not make my faith any less a faith! Or my need for chaplin services any less! Just different.

I am as deeply religious as my father, and as deeply patriotic. I am hoping to follow in my father's footsteps and join the military, not just as an officer, but as a Pagan Chaplin.

As a Pagan Chaplin, I hope to serve those in need with as open a minded view as possible. In regards to prayers at meals. I would take a more Buddhist point of view. I would ask those I serve to bow their heads and say "Thank you". A thank you that goes out to all who made it possible for us to eat that day, they who cooked and served the meal, the land that grew it, the animals that gave their life for it, and whatever higher power each individual service man or woman believed in.

A simple Thank you is something, I think, that the religious and non religious can all support. If nothing else, saying thank you is basic common courtesy we should all practice.

b

". . . who are in communal gatherings who don’t share that faith have the right to focus their minds on whatever thoughts might give them comfort, peace, and courage"

Can we just think about porn instead? You are still telling us what to think sir, and when to think it. Why not just NOT HAVE THE PRAYER and let individuals do/think what they will before a meal? Who does THAT offend? Who does THAT disrespect?
"But they don’t have the right to deny others the privilege and comfort of prayer in such group settings"
No one is denying anyone's right to pray, no one. This statement is just blatent obfuscation. This is about specific, mandatory, commissioned-officer-led oral prayer in a mixed setting. It serves neither God nor the U.S. Navy.

Rich: "Common courtesy would dictate respect for differences people may have; not for an intolerant imposition of one's own demands upon others"

But only if that respect means respect FOR religious folks and their activities(more specifically, christian). Leading a Christian Prayer in front of a mixed faith group is the very intolerance for the very differences you claim to respect. Keep your celebrations and prayers amongst yourselves, please. That disrespects no one.

Rich writes:

"I wonder just who these "many" are that opposed military chaplains? And, if, as the poster indicated, they "lost the debate", is that not ample reason for the ACLU to understand that we live in a Republic where the majority of the people and their representatives speak for the majority?"

Funny how those in the majority often fail to remember that the hallmark of our democracy is that the rights of the MINORITY are not abrogated by the opinions of the majority. If this wasn't true, then the Christians in the country - who are a clear majority - could force believers of all other religions to convert to Christianity. They could insist that elected officials be Xian.

In fact, our representatives emphatically do NOT speak "for the majority." They represent everyone, majority and minority included. They are elected by a MAJORITY of the electorate in their particular district who send them to Washington to do their Constitutional duty, which involves their representing everyone from their district, not just the majority who elected them.

That this basic premise of our democracy is ignored by the Richs of the world is as appalling as it is expected.

Dear Rich -

Military chaplains were opposed by James Madison and other.

His "Detached Memoranda," was very clear about clerics in the armed forces:

"Better also to disarm in the same way, the precedent of Chaplainships for the army and navy, than erect them into a political authority in matters of religion. … Look thro' the armies & navies of the world, and say whether in the appointment of their ministers of religion, the spiritual interest of their flocks or the temporal interest of the Shepherds, be most in view."

Madison also opposed clergy giving opening prayers before sessions of Congress.

The major argument against chaplains in the military (and Congress) is that they are paid out of taxpayer funds, and this amounts to government support of religion. Of course, bush's "fantasy based" initiative has blown that out of the water.

"Of course, many of our Founding Fathers vigorously opposed military chaplains, but this being a democracy, they lost that debate."

I wonder just who these "many" are that opposed military chaplains? And, if, as the poster indicated, they "lost the debate", is that not ample reason for the ACLU to understand that we live in a Republic where the majority of the people and their representatives speak for the majority? The nay-sayers do not, should not, and usually have not, dictated policies binding upon the nation...at least not without significant negative consequences.

Perhaps "Concerned" needs to review why chaplains are in the military and it is NOT strictly for members of their particular religious faith; it is for ALL military members to include military families and to assist in any way possible--and that is not always just in spiritual/religious needs.
Just because someone doesn't "like" prayer or finds it "useless" or "futile" does not mean they have the "right" to eliminate prayer. Common courtesy would dictate respect for differences people may have; not for an intolerant imposition of one's own demands upon others.

"Offering prayers at mealtimes in the military is not “establishment of religion.” Chaplaincies, and prayer in the armed services have become part of the diverse fabric of our pluralistic society."

Except of course that it's darn near impossible for some religions to get a chaplain of their own anywhere in the military, never mind on their own base, while aggressive Christians try to conflate evangelical piety with patriotism and 'unit cohesion.'

Someone has made these things threatening and divisive, and it wasn't atheists, people of (most) minority religions, or mainstream to liberal Christians who keep getting discriminated against for not jumping on divisive evangelical bandwagons.

If you want pluralism, how about we get chaplains of all faiths, instead of seeing one of the best-regarded chaplains in Iraq sent home for turning Pagan and suddenly not being worth retaining....

As for prayers, if these dinners are being used to make obvious who isn't an evangelical Christian, by people who claim non-Christians are unpatriotic and thus somehow an indirect threat to everyone in a unit's life, then it's not 'free exercise,' it's institutionalized division and intimidation.

Of course, many of our Founding Fathers vigorously opposed military chaplains, but this being a democracy, they lost that debate.

"Members of the uniformed services, who are called to put their lives on the line for their country, have the right to seek divine comfort and guidance through prayer."

It is so sad to see our soldiers being bought off with such attention to a cheap right (prayer) that costs our military nothing.

How much better it would be if religious leaders in our country took up the cause of treating our military with dignity and respect after they've done their service! Where's the outrage about the post-Iraq medical treatment our soldiers don't get? Where's the outrage about the VA budget being slashed during a time of war? Where's the outcry over the increased suicide rate that is currently sweeping through our military, a military who has - perhaps - used up their quota of prayers through bush's endless deployments and RE-deployments to Iraq and other hell-holes bush has created for them to suffer and die in.

Yes, arguing about allowing prayers in the military is an effective deflection from the real issues confronting our soldiers of all religious and non-religious bents. Prayer is cheap. Hospitals, artificial limbs, psychological help and out-placement services in a tough job market are not.

One would hope that the catch phrase "realities on the ground" would begin to be applied to the situation our soldiers find themselves in post-battle. We owe it to them - ALL of them.

They deserve more than a lick and a prayer.

Who started meal prayers anyway? Very odd practice to say the least. Based on the chaotic nature of raising crops, farmers should be thanked and not god/natural law who/that introduced/evolved said chaos via the Big Bang and the innate "gifts" of free will and future.

The chaplians are there to serve the needs of their religious members of the academies. When the meal crowd is mixed, meal prayers if desired should be said silently.