Dual Roles for Churches: Saving Spiritually and Temporally

Whoever posted that last comment is mentally ill.

ctcnl

I Certanly do!
The question is, why dont you?

Mark

Eichendorff, Eichendorff, Eichendorff,

So you really believe that there was/is a pretty, horn-blowing, thingie named Moroni?

So you really believe Joe Smith was not a con man?

And you really believe Mormonism is not a business cult fronting as a religion?

Well, I don’t know about all you long winded bloviaters, but I have yet to find the Church of Jesus Christ to be wrong about anything, and I have looked at it long and hard.

That, among other things, is why I am a Mormon, and proud of it.

I will now “duck & cover” (not read your responses) because I am sure I just set you off.

One day you will regret your blathering.

;o)

Mark

I mean, I may be a little biased, cause where I've lived, I've seen that wonderful LDS system turn kinda ugly at times. I've protected braver queers and battered women than myself from it. And it can get ....spooky. Some of that money goes... Interesting places, let's say.

See those warm and fuzzy 'Foundation For A Better Life' commercials? Cross reference who's behind them with some 'private security firms.' Holy Mother, but that's a ball of wax.

" Tim:

"It teaches principles of self-reliance. It values hard work. It encourages individuals to look to their own resources first, then to those of their family, and then the Church. It urges its members to avoid debt and live within their means. And for those who fall on hard times, it provides a support network and practical help while emphasizing the dignity of work and preserving the individual's self-respect."

It also taxes all members with a 'Divine Commandment' ....just for the purpose of assisting the 'self-reliant' 'chosen few' at need, claims it's a virtue of piety that this *works nicely... for some,* and demands the government not 'tyrranically' do the same.

It's good in some ways, but, also, essentially, a theocratic government within America trying to undercut any social supports but its own.

I'm not strictly-against what the LDS church does, there. It's OK to look out for your own. More religions should do that. But trying to undercut any government support of the poor in order to make its own scheme more attractive... to potential converts.... with not-exactly-wholly-theological incentives to sign themselves and their ancestors on the dotted line...

Errr...... Was that 'righteous' again?

Somehow it makes me want to wipe the Guy Smiley smile off Mitt Romney's face.

RE: Otterson et al, CAVEAT, Warning [attached below or above this Blog].

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"It teaches principles of self-reliance. It values hard work. It encourages individuals to look to their own resources first, then to those of their family, and then the Church. It urges its members to avoid debt and live within their means. And for those who fall on hard times, it provides a support network and practical help while emphasizing the dignity of work and preserving the individual's self-respect."

Great, Mr. Otterson, but what do you do during the really tough times? That is what the question is about. Or maybe you have never really experienced some really tough times?

During really tough times it is God who always reaches down and lifts me up. When things are going well, I know he is there and I also know he expects me to avail myself of all those things you are talking about, like self reliance.

But darn it Otterson, there are times when only God can deliver and sustain a person. During these times all your self help and self reliance stuff is a waste. Get on your knees and pray and throw the notes to your financial seminar in the trash.

1 Peter 5:10 And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, establish, and strengthen you.

Well, all I can say is that if you don't like the Mormons theologically, consider what they can do by *taxing their own members and providing social supports,* ...all that social support is one of the big parts of the sales pitch from the constant canvassing of poorer neighborhoods where people suffer from the very cuts in *secular* supports that the Mormons tend to advocate politically.

It's like the 'Faith based Initiatives' for other evangelical types, only better organized and better-funded.

There's a lot that can be learned from how the LDS church goes about *those* things, and not just for adherents to that religion.

Conservatives don't like *taxes,* but proclaim what can be done with 'tithes'.

Not to add to the notions Mormons are all sinister or anything, but they do have an element of theocracy-within-a-capitalist-nation that maybe people shouldn't have to fall back on.

No, CTCNL, it's really very simple.

I just read your stupid posts.

Shane Ownbey:

This church is awesome. I have reason to believe they lead in every aspect.
-----------------

Well not quite, Shane.

If you were a "Gentile" in Utah or Southern Idaho you would find its members extremely ethnocentric to the point of being overbearing and discriminatory in politics, in community activities and the in workplace.

Their well documented (but totally denied or conveniently ignored) history of the treatment of their gay members is horrifying and includes using electro-shock therapy at BYU and by bishopric referrals. (A good question for LDS Mark: As a bishop, do you still continue to do this?)

Mormon leaders and most of their members (in Utah , at least) are neocons who support the corrupt and immoral Bush administration, pre-emptive war, torture, and capital punishment, and favor big business over government education, health care and other social programs.

It is an awesome Church, but it hardly leads in every aspect.

"Me thinks" a few con men just joined the conversation.

Shane Ownbey:

I too was born Catholic and converted about 5 years ago and likewise would be happy to answer any questions as well.

Glad to see you here!

Shane Ownbey:

i was born and railed catholic but am now mormon.
if you have any questions, i would be glad to discuss it with you.

remember, the bible is just as important to us.
the two complament each other.

mark

After reading this article I went to the mormon.org website and order a Book of Mormon. I really want to know what makes these people so much nicer than every body else.

I am Catholic and we just sit on our butts because we have been doing it an nobody seems to mnd. The Mormons are like super christians...the work they teach they sing (choir) and they do all this charity work too.

Awesome, just awesome!

This church is awesome. I have reason to believe they lead in every aspect.

Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny bring joy to the world but they are still based on myths.

And the Red Cross does the same works of charity without the need for a religious front. And then there are the USA taxpayers who make the "donations" of Mormon look like chicken feed.

Again, what are the "charitable" motives of the Mormon "prophet" and the bishops of Moroni??

Let us not forget that the charity of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) is not restricted to its own members.
To innumerate only a few recent events;
· Aid to the Indian Ocean tsunami victims.
· A convoy of trucks on the way BEFORE Katrina made landfall.
· An Islamic relief organization's 747 cargo plane filled with supplies on its way to Indonesia after the next earthquake.
· Another Islamic 747 filled and sent to Lebanon for war relief.
· Local reconstruction and cleanup efforts in most of the above.

I was aware of it but didn’t understand the extent of it until I became a member of a local bishopric.

Its good to be a Mormon.

Mark

Although I am quick to point out examples of Otterson's hypocrisy on other issues, like his Church's treatment of its gays, I must say that what I saw growing up in Utah, he speaks the truth here.

The Mormon systems of taking care of their own is truly Christian in nature and very noble. This is among the Mormon characteristics to be admired and emulated like their strong emphasis on education and the family including setting one night a week aside for Family Home Evening. Although I suffered prejudice and exclusion at the hands of Utah Mormons, there is a lot to be respected about their religious culture.

CTCNL is a pathetic loser.

In other words, the Mormon/Moroni "Church" is a business cult/con fronting as a religion.

Any non-Mormons in the management of all those "charitable" holdings?

And no doubt those "charitable" offerings are made to keep the Mormon "businesses" listed as charities and therefore free from paying income taxes. Of course, being required to tithe is a form of taxation. Do you get to vote on how your money is spent?? Hmm, I forgot, the prophet knows better.

Start with the myth/con of Moroni/Joe Smith and the religion aspect of Mormonism collapses.

And this is said not in hatred but to bring reality to Mormonism.

This is what I have grown up with. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints practices what they preach! Jesus Christ served people until he died. He is our example. All churches do good. The LDS church has one of the most organized, smooth running churches in the world. As the article stated, we teach SELF RELIANCE & HARD WORK. To avoid DEBT - live within your means. We have canneries, storehouses, Deseret Industries, encourage people to have food storage, self confidence, etc. This is the most awesome church! They help everyone, not just members of the church! We are almost everytime the first church to send aid to those hit by hurricanes, floods, Tsumanis, earthquakes, etc. We send food, clothing, first aid, whatever is necessary to help those who are in need. We live the law "Love one another". We do what Jesus Christ would do. For those who cannot understand, I am sorry that you feel you have to attack our church or show such hatred. You will never see us attacking or saying things about other churches. You will never see us protesting outside your religious buildings during your worship services. We believe that all men have the right to believe as they want to believe. We have missionaires to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ as we believe it to be true. We are not a perfect congregation, no church can claim to be perfect. All churches have their "black sheep" so to say. But we are all human. We make mistakes & that is how we learn & grow. The Gospel of Jesus Christ helps us to try to be more like him. We have to work on it daily. We only want to live in peace & do what is right. God Bless everyone & may we try to live in peace one with another, accepting each other for the beautiful children of God that they are.

Faith is the building block of our existence. We get out of bed because of it, we act according to it. I appreciate the analysis you bring that people must be wiling to exercise faith with agency in order to have truths revealed. This is a great one.

I also am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I know that only when people are accountable before God for his given commandments, are blessings both temporal & spiritual dispensed, and freely. Not to say "believe & get rich," but the basic beliefs will lead you to habits and characteristics that promote individual prosperity.

This is wonderful. I have no qualms with religious groups that do good for the world.