Knowing Evil When We See it

"My father, mother, brother, and 5,000 relatives are active mormons, so I am talking about my family"

Now this is unimaginable!!! You have 5,000 living relatives who are all Mormons?

Please explain!

As an apostate Mormon who is NOT bitter, and who has thought a lot about the difference between a Religion and a Cult, i must objectively say that Mormonism usually gets a YES vote on 1/2 to 2/3rds of the criteria generally used to identify a Cult.

My father, mother, brother, and 5,000 relatives are active mormons, so I am talking about my family

But go to google and look up "cult characteristics." Again, Mormons qualify on 50-70%.

I must admit that I believe that belief in God is a delusion. But many Unitarians believe in "God" (question mark), and Unitarianism is NOT a cult by any stretch of the definition.

Henry James

JACOB JOSEVZ:

Nice is good, not nice is evil.

Nice is light, evil is darkness.

I prefer to live in the light!

WARM HEART 4.3.09;8:07Pm

Nice nice very Nice-aaa!

Ria Ramkissoon believed Queen Antoinette would resurrect her son because the latter said she could. Ms. Ramkissoon applied her faith in contradiction to all facts.

Faith is what one is willing to believe without facts; but should never be accepted in contradiction to them.

The facts surrounding the basis of your church are:
DNA evidence refutes the idea of close relationship between the Native Americans and Israelites
There is no trace of the Land of Bountiful or the cities of Nehpi or Gid, etc.
There were no horses, sheep, pigs or elephants in the New World before Columbus

Your faith is based on the fairy tales of a (convicted, even before he became your prophet) swindler and charlatan.

"In a democracy, we justifiably set the bar pretty high for freedom of religious expression and conscience. But our societies enact and enforce laws against antisocial behavior or extreme actions that threaten others, without which our communities would collapse. When people choose to cross the line, they face the consequences."

BWAHAHAHAHA!

Look at what the Catholic Church did! And the consequences faced by their CEO?

A state reception and welcome!!!

Imagine if it was forbidde, on WAPO (onfaith/onreligion & postglobal) to use the words "MICH{AE}{L}" {OTTER}{SON}" Or "SA{LLY}" "QU{i}NN" or "DA{VID" "WA{}TERS" or " "FA{R}EED" "ZAK{A}R}IA}" or "DAV-ID" "I{}G{}NATiUS" or the word "Washing{ton}" or "PO{ST" , MOSES, JESUS etc..???

For a test of "Ingoodfaith" Please remove curly brackets in WAPO's Editor & hit "Submit" button. For the Word:

""SH{i}L{O}H" [PEACE BRINGER]. So
WHY would Washington Post or George Town University et al; be soo so afraid of a (biblical) word meaning, "PEACE", Freidan, PAZ, Mir, SHALOM or "SH{}{A}{L}{O}{M}", Salaam, Ahimsah, Zhingyu"?.....?.. Testing testing:

"HUE{-}MATES"
"JO{}K}{T}AN" [The UNITED Anscestors]
{WE [i] Cometh from This Father/Mother EBERu line} hence [i] WE; US? are innately evolved as "HUEMATES" not as HUMAN anymore. As Prophecy: WE [i] Removeth the "Scepter & the Rod.. from Both hand & between King DAVID's realm who are "P{E}{L}E{G"ians [The DIVIDED Ancestors]. WE Reverseth the DRUNKIN NOAH [racist] CURSETH/SINETH preposterous Story of Moses & his Jealoused Co., And So
INSTEAD of god, replaced "ITSELF" w/the knowledge of "IT" via the Holyi Cosmic "MELCHIZEDEK PEACE-BLESSING" & more "Good TiDINGS"!

Testing Testing:

"P{E}{L}E{G"
[Means the "DIVIDED" Eber/ABRAHAMICs branch/splinter, Isaac, Ishamael, Jacob, Joseph, David, Solomon, Esau, Jesus, includes Muhammad Folks, Mormons too etc.., as their Lineage/Anscestor (NOT OUR's, Never! or unlike US HUEMATE-arians of that Holyi Cosmic NEBULA awared "IT"s (G-D) Naturally Selected , aka, Chosen, "JO{}K}{T}AN"ian) EBERu race!

WOW! WHY WAPO???????????? WHO {Sect?, Cult?, Preacher, Editor, Moderator(s) , Mormon, Evangelousical? , rick Warren? Chuck Colson? etc..} is Behind This Blatant 1st Amendment Violation & Anti Public-Internet DEVILISH/EVIL Censorings???

Wow! Please WAPO & Co., stop Jealously Blocking OUR, not your, Intellectual works about the "IT" [G-D doing work & becoming what one is becoming] And then Borrow for Ye gains or Withholding such whiteboarding hard work from its genuine Authors!?

According to the ""ULTRA PARATESTAMENT" Of The Holyi-Cosmic NEW-SONG"" coming from All our OLD-SONGS, That "SUPERNATURAL" means "PRETER/NATURAL" here & means, both BEFORE + AFTER and is same as "SUPERNATURAL" [not the biblio's Pre-Apocalyptic ones or two's.. god(s) in Heaven? or Hell?]:

"IT" [CREATOR of our PHOTONS, not a HE/HIM nor is "IT" a SHE/HER] is about the Nature of the UNIVERSE {our Real CONSTITUTION} befor ANY, EVERY & ALL of "IT" or "iTSELF" became as "NATURAL" as "IT" is today! Or,

The EPONYMOUS "HOLYi-NO-MON" {G-D, IT etc. now hath a 1,000 Names & no longer by 99} of "SOURCEONE" {"IT"} which The-People of Space-Ship Earth(s) have been also calling the SUPER/NATURAL!

Note: "IT" has a BRIGHT-SIDE & a DARKSIDE that reavel's "iTSELF" {G-D} in the acts of CREATION that Human folks , not yet matured/evolved into HUEMATES, have been calling "Works of G-D" and "Works of the DEVIL/Jinn/Kali/Satan.. called by several names, not Many.

Note: The Prophet ISAIAH [pbuh], of the JUDEO-CHRISTIANS, once said, "I FORM the PHOTONS (Warmth) and create Darkness (Cold); I make PEACE & create EVIL; I the LORD do ALL these things. So,

"Preter" means both BEFORE & BEYOND. And If coupled to the Word NATURAL [as in our Holy Cosmic LAWS as 'Clauses' from our Holyi Universe as ou Holyi Constitution] that

"IT" refers to the "ELEMENT OF BEYONDNESS" before-US which is the MOVER OF ALL {IT's} THINGS&STUFFS in ITSELF, thus being a {US] in MIRACLE as if On a HOLY Cosmic Move as "IT" balances Itself from place {NEBULA to PLANETS like Here; some worse, some better & some like Earth here} to Place {Beyond]. So,

ALL Things in IT's holyi cosmic Move is also HIDDEN {not Manna} from O.U.R. View by the Acts thus resulting in the natural world that depends on the "PRETER/NATURAL" aka "SUPER/NATURAL" to POWER "IT" accordingly. See: IMMORTAL HEURISTIC/a/o' and see our "ETERNITY AVOIDING LONLINESS" in ITSELF {G-d by 1,00 names, no more by 99}.!

Dear "GABy1 & Friends?:

[WE] i'am curious about what you said here;

You say things like,

""the great shining light"."

Note: WE [i] know that Ye art a "Queen" Wiccan/Witch, but [i] WE do not understand YOUR [not OUR] meaning of "the great shining light". Soo,

Can you explain or elaborate on that concept? or idea? or maybe illussion?. [WE] i do not understand that sentence.

Ye also sayth,

"Now if ony you would understand that the light is for ALL, including the ones you despise so much."

"IF.. Understand? .. the light for ALL? includes ... "THE ONE's YOU DESPISE???"

You sound like an Angel turned Witch/Wiccan/Pagan/Voodoo who flys around in a Broom overhead!?? And then YOU? say,

"Then you would truly be an E*lation."

Are you and Ye Company TRUE blue/blooded "E*lat-ion?" Please, elaborate & tell Us [WE, i] what you mean by "E*lation"? Sounds Alien to [ME, i, WE, US]!

PS: Are you & also some of them other folks {like You involving i [WE] in Berkley University Facalty? or in Astronomy?} who have been searching the ends of Earth & these United States ,

for OUR-3-Books of the "HOLYI-COSMIC-FEELERS-FAITH" [Ho-Co-Fe-Fa} System; A NEW SONG coming from All our Old Songs Prophetically; A Belief, like a Religion, but Better and Based on TRUTH (opposite MYTH)??

Note: i [WE] caught many people getting their hands on IT & using it , as if it is their NEW SONG..!???. Getting No Credit, only Evil!?

Jehovah’s Witnesses twisted beliefs:

A) They are at your door to recruit you for their watchtower corporation,they will say that “we are just here to share a message from the Bible” this is deception right off.

B) Their ‘message’ is a false Gospel that Jesus had his second coming in 1914.The problem with this is it’s not just a cute fairy tale,Jesus warned of the false prophets who would claim “..look he is here in the wilderness,or see here he is at the temple…”

C) Their anti-blood transfusion ban has killed hundreds if not thousands

D) once they recruit you they will “love bomb” you in cult fashion to also recruit your family & friends or cut them off. There are many more dangers,Jehovah’s Witnesses got a bad rap for good and valid reasons.

99% of the world has rejected the teachings of the Watchtower Jehovah’s Witnesses, the darker truth is they are a destructive and oppressive organization.
–
Danny Haszard Jehovah’s Witness X 33 years http://www.dannyhaszard.com

JJ, Ye are brilliant as well as in "the great shining light". Now if ony you would understand that the light is for ALL, including the ones you despise so much. Then you would truly be an E*lation.

See you later, Gator!

CCNL,

How does Mark say? Sit, Sit .....

Considering the mumbo jumbo that Joe "Satan Slick" Smith fed his followers, the title describes him well and is very appropriate.

Think about it, horn blowing "pretty thingie" named Moroni, gold plates hidden god only knows where, polygamy, and racist to name some some of items on this guy's con list!!!

"Warm Heart" Ye art Brilliant!

PS: There is A genuine/Real "SUPERNATURAL"!

Hint: "IT" starts with YE & ends with US [WE]! Eternity, is All/US, Avoiding Lonliness in "IT"s {G-D, never is IT a HE/HIM/HIS nor a She/Hers} own Holy-i "TIME" {Holy-"TEMPerature", not man made, clock-time thinking }

HISTORY is O.U.R. JURY & The UNIVERSE is O.U.R. Holyi Cosmic [innate] CONSTITUTION. And The LAWS of "IT"s Nature THEREFROM, are O.U.R. CLAUSES; in ORDER(!) to

"Uphold, Magnify & make Honorable APOCALYPTICALLY thinking" no-more, by Pre-Apocalyptically thinking!

A cult or sect is nothing other than a derivative of the original. Be it religion or philosophy.

So let's suppose that at one time there was only one "religion", then all others that have formed from the original are a cult or sect.

Think about it! Catholics claim they are the one and true Christian faith. It's that "Peter the Rock " thing. In reality they are just an offshoot of Judaism.

Then Mohammed came along, yet another offshoot of of Judaism and Christianity.

Then Luther formed the cult of Lutherans Protestants now often confused with Protestants of all sorts. Equally, many others had different ideas. So now we have I don't know how many denominations in America and they all claim they are a religion when in effect they are nothing but a cult/sect.

This is not an anti Mormon post. It is an anti religion/cult/sect post.

If only people would let go of their delusions in the supernatural and live an ethical live we all would be much better off.

Ah, the No True Scotsman defense!

After the comic relief of two or three of CCNL's posts, I stopped reading them altogether because I already knew what the next one would contain. The exception to that was his reference to the Time magazine article. I posted that comment, not so much to CCNL (because conversation with him is pointless) but to others with a modicum of intelligence who might read the comments. I wanted to make sure the facts about the way the Church handles donations were available.

CCNL doesn't actually bother me. I just feel sorry for him.

CCNL,

Let's suppose for a moment that you're really trying to help Mormons with your posts on this thread. Do you really think that referring to their founder as 'Joe "Satan Slick" Smith' is going to help them consider your point in a rational way? Of course not. All those types of references will do is make people (like Volkmare) defensive and dismissive of your point. If your interest is to help, then try showing people that you respect them and that while you may not agree with their beliefs, you appreciate the good things their religion does.

Whatever you believe about Mormonism or any other religious group, you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Poor Mark, he simply cannot grasp that his "prophit" (his spelling - new type prophet?) was one of the great con men!!!

CCNL

Only in your dreams!
Now sit down and be a good, respectful dog.
You know, not the "Yappy" hair-lip type. (EG: Mark Mark Mark Mark....)

If you want respect, you must earn it by showing it first. Try it some time, you may just like it.

If all you can do is to "Disparage (other) religions", then you will get no respect here.

Mark
Always seek the truth.

"Disparage their religions" ???

The founders of the major religions and even the minor religions like Mormonism disparaged their religions.

The followers of these religions simply cannot handle the truth about these very flawed founders. And telling the truth started about 200 years ago when the OT and NT passages began to be analyzed with the throughness that was lacking up to that point.

See the many published works on this to include the books by four of the On Faith panelists i.e. Professors Crossan, Borg, Fredriksen and Pagels.

If you look at the previous half-dozen posts you'll see exactly why I talk about needing a lot of understanding and tolerance when we look at other religions. Obviously those who have posted on Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons lack that tolerance. I have known people of each of those two religions and for the most part they have been good people trying to make the world a better place. And yet people like CCNL and Jehovahinfo feel the need to disparage their religions.

If you want to talk about flaws in religions, it needs to be done in a respectful manner, not as if you were third graders calling names. We should all take Gamaliel's advice in Acts 5:38-39 (from the NIV):

"Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God."

Fight evil, not religious groups that for the most part try to do good.

The Jehovah's Witnesses got BIG time sinners and they cover it up.

http://www.theopenpress.com/?a=articles&code=01&id=370

FBI Most Wanted Pedophile Jehovah's Witnesses
The Open Press (press release) 1-10-09
McLean used his position as a respected member of the Jehovah's Witnesses to gain trust,..

Read how the FBI and US marshal service MOST WANTED pedophile in the world was enabled by the Jehovah's Witnesses.

You can also go to my own website: http://www.dannyhaszard.com

And it is obvious that Mark's brainwashing in/obedience to the "prophet" of Mormonism is very deep. Should we offer a free Five Step Program to set him free??

Sit, ccnl, sit!
I know of a good obedience school. It would do any bad dog a world of good.

Mark
Always seek the truth.

Mark, Mark, Mark,

Hmmm, so Mormonism has even more problems having another "hallucinator" aka the simple preacher man aka Jesus as a co-founder!!! P, M, M, L and J did a real "slicking" on him turning him into a god and all!!!
Joe "Satan-Slick" Smith (the prophit?/profiteer) simply followed/borrowed their methods.

And the word Mormon originally was an insult? What insult might that be??

No, CCNL, Jesus Christ founded the "Church of 'Jesus Christ' of Latter Day Saints".

Joseph Smith was his prophit.

When the term Mormon was coined, it was ment to be an insult, but we liked it. It is just another example of a hate group trying to hang a name on us (like the term "Cult") that failed, as they always do.

;o)

Mark
Always seek the truth.

Hello JEHOVAinfo and YASHUA, YAWH, HASHEM, ADONOI, ALLAH, ISHVARA, I-Chi etc..

ON:The Satan/Jinn/Kali/Asura/Durga/devil(s)

Once upon a many time [i] stared the Devil/Satan.. by many names, in them Eye (Even today) & in the Eye of ME Mind. And guess what [i] see or saw? ME [i, a being, a YE a HE].

Like Blogger "GARAT" said, on "Sebelius vs. Archbishop Naumann" question [see , J.L. Simon @ 'God In Government' spool Today] ,It's TRUE/opposite MYTH,

"...Didn't the alleged founder? {by Josephus & Paul, not Yashua} of the church say, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"? Or do the teaching of Jesus apply only when bolstering the church's position?"

Note: It is said that, "The DEVIL is is the Details" Note again: "Once ]i] ME was lost but now i [WE] are found!"

Hint: One must always be vigilant in distinguishing 'MYTH' (opposite TRUTH) and 'APATHY' (Opposite GOOD) from YE REALITY in contemplation or consideration for OUR (not MY) Posterity!

The End of Holyi, Cosmic, NEBULA-Built, Miraculously OUR (not MY) sweet sweet Space-Ship Momma/Poppa Earth(s) of Many like Us! WE [i] are not alone!

Note: Don't forget: There is GOOD (Saints?) & EVEIL (BAD) on them other Worlds/Planets Too! soo,

PEACE,Paz Salaam,Shalom Ahimsa, Shantih, Zingyhu, Freiden, Mir, ...

Jehovah's Witnesses and no blood transfusions quickie FYI

Modified Kosher dogma appeared circa 1945 when the "Christian" JW back then (a fraction of the membership they are in 2009) thought the world was coming to an end any day.

This is the key,the leadership back then never thought that they would 'still be here in this ole system' in the 21st century.The end of the world was suppose to come a long time ago.
So what has happened since is thousands of men,women and CHILDREN have perished for this made up rule,and now the Watchtower legal dept has got to spin this so they don't get sued for wrongful death.

Soooo, they invented the fraction loop hole where in the fine print JW actually can really take blood to save their life but just can't call it *whole* blood.

Complicated? That's the idea so that a jury would think so.
Watchtower don't get sued for money and JW children can still die.If the Watchtower legal could find a way to squirm outta this mess they would fold faster than superman doing laundry.

JW BLOOD REFORM NOW!
http://www.ajwrb.org/basics/abstain.shtml

Gimpi,

I generally agree with your classification, but the problem is that it depends on intentions and one person's intention to harm is another person's intention to help spiritually. On some level we cannot objectively judge another person's beliefs so we need to make a strong effort to understand and tolerate different beliefs. Of course we cannot understand or tolerate starving a baby to death, but I think generally we need to err on the side of respect for other beliefs.

Kjohnson3,

I think that's a rough but generally accurate definition of a cult, but I would argue that those 5 actions in conjunction are in fact evil. They may not be as bad as starving your child to death, but little evils tend to grow over time.

"Religious groups like the Amish or Jehovah's Witnesses don't intend to harm their children by refusing some medical procedures, but yet you obviously feel that they are harming their children and should be prosecuted. What about parents who don't vaccinate their children? Should they be prosecuted if their child comes down with polio? It has been shown that divorce negatively affects a child's emotional and intellectual development. Should we outlaw divorce or prosecute those with bad marriages?"
Posted by belivingscientist

Those are hard questions. I guess I would go with an "active harm" vs "passive harm" rule. Denying food, medical care, or battering are actions you choose to take. You know what you're doing, and you choose to do it, consequences be damned. The child is at the center of your decision, and you seem to find the harm you do acceptible.

Having a bad marriage, or solving that bad marriage by divorce is more reactive, not intending harm, but harm coming as an undesirable part of your actions. You aren't setting out to harm the child, it in many cases, it simply can't be helped. A sick parent, a parent dying, poverty are all hard on kids, but can't all be prevented, and we certianly can't prosecute people for child abuse because they lost their job, or their spouse died.

No one sets out to have a bad marriage, but people activly join sects (or stay in them) that require them to hurt their children (or others) as a price of membership. That price should always be too high.

On vaccinations, I'm not very objective. My mom was a polio survivor, and I think not vaccianting your children is about as selfish as you can get. I've seen the pain these preventable diseases can cause, and when you don't vaccinate, you put others at risk. That said, it is a sort of "passive harm" that probably falls below the bar for state intervention. I want that bar set high.

We can't make children's lives perfect, but we can prevent their parents from denying them necessary food, medical attention, or abusing them. I, personally would set the bar at what I'm calling active harm. I'm interested in what others think, though.

And Joe "Slick" Smith was not the founder of Mormonism????

Such biting wit. CCNL has a fresh, bold, and new approach to each subject of this column every time he posts. Such intelligence. Such insight.

Such stupidity.

Believingscientist,

Perhaps we need to learn each other's definition of "evil," as I suspect we may be pretty far apart on that continuum.

However, to respond to your question on my definition of "cult," I pretty much agree with the five defining characteristics used by Rabbi Hirschfield over on his thread:

"Cults are typically defined by five characteristics. First, cults tend to centralize power in the hands of a single individual or small group that is considered beyond questions. Second, they treat all questions about the group and its beliefs as intolerable challenges to the group's authority and authenticity. Third, they demean all those who do not share their beliefs and sow fear and mistrust amongst their believers about all such people. Fourth, they typically cut off all or most opportunities for members to interact freely with those outside the group. And finally, they take revenge upon those who choose to leave the group, in ways which include, cutting them off from all relationships with those who remain inside, confiscation of material goods and even physical harm."

These five characteristics don't necessarily imply evil. Certainly, some aspects of them, if carried to extremes, could constitute evil, depending upon the type and degree of harm inflicted and the presence of intent to do the harm. But the fact that these characteristics set the stage for often cruel, heartless treatment of others doesn't mean that evil must be involved.

Your thoughts?

Kjohnson3,

I'm interested in your definition of a cult. When I use the word, I essentially mean a religious group that inspires evil, like those evils mentioned by Gimpi. What do you mean?

Gimpi,

I agree that laws should prevent and punish harm from occurring, but the problem has always been how to define harm. Religious groups like the Amish or Jehovah's Witnesses don't intend to harm their children by refusing some medical procedures, but yet you obviously feel that they are harming their children and should be prosecuted. What about parents who don't vaccinate their children? Should they be prosecuted if their child comes down with polio? It has been shown that divorce negatively affects a child's emotional and intellectual development. Should we outlaw divorce or prosecute those with bad marriages?

"Many groups in US history from Native Americans to Catholics to Mormons were subjected to often violent persecution because their religions were weird or different, not evil."

Believingscientist,

It sounds as if you're saying that all cults are evil. Do you think this is the case?

Belivingscientist;

For me, the line is very simple and very bright. When your actions cause harm (physicial or extreme mental) to someone, you WILL be prosecuted. It's just that simple. Cult, religion, whatever. If you cause no harm, you can believe whatever wish, and act on it however you will, as long as you don't hurt anyone, including your own family. Different shouldn't matter. Weird shouldn't matter. Size of your group shouldn't matter. All that should matter in law is are you causing harm. Other than that, the law needs to leave religion alone. Likewise, religion needs to return the favor, leave the law alone, and not try to have their beliefs passed into law. (A difficult line for belivers and law alike, but at least clear)

Therefore, if you starve your child, deny your child medical care, kill your sister in the name of religious honor, force your 14 year-old daughter into a marriage (plural or otherwise), beat your wife because she's not submitting to you, attack someone who your religion views as dangerous or sinful, or cause anyone harm in any profound way, you need to be prosecuted.

And, we need to be honest here. Look at how many examples I cite (and we all recognise) involve hurting our children, our female siblings or our wives. The sad fact that many religions (and most of the ancient world) has in the past viewed women and children as property. Hurting or killing them was just not viewed as a crime. Our laws have, thankfully, changed, but in many cases some aspects of our religions have not caught up. Can they? If so, how? If not, how do we resolve the dicotomy? I don't know. Any ideas?

Believin Scientist: Interesting.

I think Mr. Otterson is spot on here. It is generally easy to spot evil when we see it. Here that was easy because killing babies is about as evil as one can get. But we do need to be careful not to label a group that seems strange to us as a "cult" simply because it is different. Many groups in US history from Native Americans to Catholics to Mormons were subjected to often violent persecution because their religions were weird or different, not evil. We need to make sure we take a through look at a group with a heavy dose of understanding before we start labeling them as a "cult".

I think it is despicable that the court system accepted their plea that if the baby is resurrected there will be no crime.

Granted, the odds of resurrection are zero, but it sets a precedent that has appalling repercussions.

Action should be taken against the judge that allowed such a preposterous plea.

Mark
Always seek the truth.

CCNL makes it a point to use the word as a mask for his own intolerance in every post. Unfortunately, the mask doesn't hide anything.