The Open Door at Dachau

LIA2

Well Said.

Mark
Always seek the truth.

Sorry if my last post didn't make a lot of sense...I guess my internet filter deletes the word d e a d when I type.

kjohnson3 seems to have a lot of bitterness and anger against LDS Church members. "Worst kind of disrespect," "condescending," "atrocity"....Wow.

I'm your garden variety, temple-going Mormon, and gary2635 is right...baptism for the for me is a way to "show the highest respect to others."

I'm lucky enough to live close to a temple. Every Thursday I take a few hours to go there and do service for deceased people. Recently a convert from India submitted a large number of names of his ancestors to the temple, so lately the names that I have been doing are Indian. When I look at the name and pray over it, I realize that this person may have never even heard the words "Jesus Christ" during their lifetime. It may very well be that the deceased person neither knows what I'm doing nor cares; but I believe that what I'm doing makes it possible for that person to receive the gospel of Jesus Christ, if they want it. It is my gift to them, the best gift I can offer. And I always pray that they receive it.

It's strange and disturbing to come on here and find that some people ascribe some evil or disrespectful motive to me.

Courteous people the world over know how to recognize and graciously accept a gift. If someone wishes me Happy Hanukkah, am I offended? If a Muslim friend says a prayer for me in a mosque, do I do anything but say "thank you so much"? If a Catholic acquaintance lights a candle for my ailing father in the cathedral, do I say "My father is Mormon!" and call her disrespectful? Here is the truth: If any Christian denomination in the entire world made note of the scripture in 1 Corinthians and started practicing "baptism for the " -- and then found the name of my great-grandmother and took the time to be baptized for her so that she could (in their minds) have salvation in the world to come, I'll tell you what I would say. I would say, "That is one of the kindest things I've ever heard of."

When people fling names and accusations at people like me that they've never met, it's hard to believe that they have any great respect for the . It's like that wise N.T. scripture says: If a man doesn't love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? If a person can't even speak graciously and with respect toward living, breathing strangers around the world, what respect can he possibly have for masses of unknown ?

Speaking of this, thank you Michael Otterson for the respect you've shown in this post.

lepidopteryx

It would be better if you did it while you are in this world than in the spirit world when things are clear. It would carry more weight with God.

That again is your choice and no one elses no matter when you do it.

Mark
Always seek the truth

lepidopteryx
That’s not likely.
In case you weren’t listening, you are not my family.
Mark
Always seek the truth

Posted by: volkmare | June 16, 2009 11:43 PM
______________________________________________________________________________________

I was using "you" generically, not specifically.
But to clarify:
To my knowledge, none of my family members are LDS. But if any of them should convert and perform a posthumous baptism on my behalf, I will haunt that person. If I wanted to be baptized, I would have done it while I was alive.

kjohnson3

I am not your typical LDS aggressive family history researcher, but I have found, through simple inquires to that database over 350 ancestors, even an English knight and an Israeli king.
I am even related to Meriwether Lewis, the explorer.

I am more of a Racer, Hunter, Competition Shooter, and Network Administrator and don’t have a lot of time for family research, much to the chagrin of my bishop.

What you could find out about your family might amaze you.
You should try it some time.

Mark
Always seek the truth

kjohnson3

Ill explain the database for those of you in the “cheep seats”.
Ill even do it in simple terms so you can understand.

It helps us find who our family members are so we can submit family names for temple ordinances.

It is open for all to use.
It is a research tool that is of value to all faiths and all people of the world.

Even you.

Mark
Always seek the truth

lepidopteryx

That’s not likely.

In case you weren’t listening, you are not my family.

Mark
Always seek the truth

I just did one for my mother, a catholic, in Seattle this weekend.

It is up to her to decide wither or not to accept it.

Mark
Always seek the truth.

By the way, Baptism for the dead --IS-- in the bible.

Look it up some time

Mark
Always seek the truth.

WmarkW

No, we don't unless family members specifically request having their deceased family members baptized.

That is the way it has always been.

The Jewish leaders objected to it before they learned that family members had to request it.

Even at that it is still up to the deceased person to decide wither or not to accept the baptism.

They still have a free will in the spirit world.

A proxy baptism merely gives them the opportunity if they choose to take it. Again, then only at the request of one of their descendants.

Mark
Always seek the truth.

I feel good there is something Elder Otterson and I finally agree with.

I, too, went to Dachau and second his sentiments exactly. Kudos to Elder Otterson from one of the world's foremost Mormon bashers.

"I don't think that these comments are "pure stupidity". I feel that a comment like that is inflammatory and unnecessary. Most people who criticize the Mormon proxy baptisms are good, sincere people who are simply misinformed."

No, actually. What it is to most, is claiming and erasing other people's ancestors, rewriting who they were, and using the *dead* to claim something about other people's families.

"Many people don't realize that these actions are a way for Mormon believers to show their highest respect to others in their most sacred place. It is similar in a way to many who pray for their president. It is sincere, unselfish, and harmless."

I think what it is is actually ...Mormons treating others as other branches of Christianity treat still others.

Appropriation. Erasure. *Profound* insult to people who have a different idea what 'baptism' is, ....people who lived lives of their own, whatever they believed in.

What it is is the Mormon church *refusing* the dead the dignity of their own lifetimes and claiming 'It's good for ya.'

Especially to Christians, Jews, Muslims, ....well, just about anyone... You may as well be digging up Gramma to claim she was 'really' Mormon.

It's a sort of ritual desecration.

Within Mormonism, of course, it's a way to make Mormons not have to face all the people their dogma consigns to Hell retroactively.

But the real thing of it is, *blithe, total, and noxious lack of respect for others.*

"Stifling the truth, facts, is never a good idea, sir."

Very true.

However, it is an article of faith with the Mormons to lie about anything that doesn't show their church in a good light. Don't expect honesty there; you won't find it.

I don't think that these comments are "pure stupidity". I feel that a comment like that is inflammatory and unnecessary. Most people who criticize the Mormon proxy baptisms are good, sincere people who are simply misinformed.

Many people don't realize that these actions are a way for Mormon believers to show their highest respect to others in their most sacred place. It is similar in a way to many who pray for their president. It is sincere, unselfish, and harmless.

Many also don't realize that these actions are taken by individuals and not the church.

Contrary to what I have read in the media, this has nothing to do with forcing people to be members of the Mormon church. In their belief it is an offering that individuals can accept or reject.

While showing their caring for their fellow man in this way is odd, I can certainly accept the fact that it is intended as an expression of love.

I also have been to Dachau, and had a similar experience. It was a reverential feeling. It brought to my wife and I a profound sense of love and even kinship to those who suffered so much in this place.

The use of the word "atrocity" to describe the LDS practice of baptism for the dead is an example of extreme hyperbole and pure stupidity.

The Church as an institution does not, as a matter of policy, submit names of Holocaust victims for baptism for the dead. If a church member, however, is descended from such a person, no one inside or outside the Church has the right to prevent that ancestor's name from being submitted if it is the express wish of the descendant.

But really, this discussion is moot anyway, despite Kjohnson3's insane obsession with the topic. Baptism on behalf of the dead, as Latter-day Saints practice it, harms no one, no matter how many claims to the contrary. For those who reject it, there is no effect whatsoever. For those who accept it, it is of great benefit.

Good post, Mr. Otterson, thank you; however, the question as to whether the Moromon Church, despite protests, is still baptizing Holocaust victims is a good one. Comments concerning this practice should not be removed from this thread, as was done recently in the case of one posted by WMARKW.

The practice is real issue. If it has ended, say so. If not, you may comment on that as well. In other words, you may post in reply. Stifling the truth, facts, is never a good idea, sir.

In the absence of evidence to the contrary, one must assume that Mormons are still committing this atrocity against Jews worldwide, alive and dead.

It is the worst kind of disrespect -- both dismissive and condescending.

Mr. Otterson, does your church still retroactively re-baptize Holocaust victims as Mormons?

Seeing that oven must have been staggering. I probably would have cried out loud.

I pray for the souls that were lost in the Holocaust.

Mark
Always seek the truth.