Mormon voices in the public square and what to make of them

Hi there blubergamo, To start off, I am not sure how your 'fox guarding the hen house' comment applies at all in this situation with Mr Otteson. So the rest of your story sounds like the same tired rant of someone who chose not to follow truth any more and had to make the church sound loony to justify his own decision to take an easier, more worldly route.

The end of your post shows that you never paid much attention to the direction from the LDS church when you were going. The leadership of the church has been saying for decades to be prepared for hard times - financially, physically and spiritually. Looking in scripture, you only have to look at EVERY prophet recorded to see that if people are not really choosing to listen then they will not heed any warning given from divine revelation.

Having Otterson comment on his church is very much the stuff of "fox guarding the hen house." A faithful Latter-day Saint marches lock-step with the leadership no matter where they go. Besides, he's blatantly wrong: Any time a political situation arises that offends Mormon leadership, orders rain down from Salt Lake City upon the heads of the rank-and-file Mormons to contribute time and money to defeat the initiative in question. Otterson is talking crazy talk. He's pursuing the time-honored Mormon practice of "lying for the Lord."

I was raised a Mormon and raised my family in the Mormon church. I served a mission, attended BYU, married in the Los Angeles Soviet-style temple (where I took the blood oaths that I would allow my throat to be slashed and my bowels torn out if I divulged the secrets of the Mormon temple ceremony), and as a "High Priest" have served in Mormon leadership positions too numerous to mention. Sadly, it turned out to be an odious cult. While the Mormon church continues to inexplicably cling to beliefs and traditions that are largely irrelevant, it changes other fundamentally Mormon beliefs each time they cause public embarrassment.

Only one in five people who don't know a Mormon has a favorable impression of them. But more telling is that, according to the same recent poll, only one in three people WHO DO KNOW a Mormon has a favorable impression of them. As for me, I could no longer take the cognitive dissonance regarding the nutty teachings, and the micromanagement of Mormon leadership of largely nitnoy actions. Regarding their prophet's "inspiration" and "divine guidance," can anything be more glaring that to completely miss the financial meltdown in the US, the 9/11 attacks, the subsequent wars, yet to demand that Mormon women limit the number of earrings they wear and not wear flip-flops in church?

Hurray for the mormons putting their money toward moral issues in many places! And I am not sure what mormons you know who are homophobes (whatever that means) or racist, but the ones I know embrace gay loved ones and actually adopt children of other ethnicities and love them to pieces. It is always a mistake to lump all people of the same religion into the same pot.

Interesting P.R. piece by Mr. Otterson; however, contrary to his statements, the Mormon (LDS) Church is actively involved in politics and political campaigns. The Proposition 8 campaign in California (2008) is a great example--the Mormon Church played a major role in the proposition passing.

There is also evidence (pending release of the donation files as ordered by a federal judge) that the Mormon Church is a major financial supporter of the National Organization for Marriage, a group that has opposed marriage equality in a number of states and jurisdictions. (It was the major funder of the successful campaign to overturn marriage equality in Maine.) The Mormon Church also funded other "front" group that opposed marriage equality as well.

As a response to various comments, see http://www.blacklds.org for information on Mormons and race issues. An article by Dr Armand Mauss at http://www.blacklds.org/mauss is an excellent summary of the problems and progress Mormons have made on these issues. It starts with a 1978 statement by an Apostle of the church to show how revelations correct prior errors. Leaders are inspired but not infallible.

My understanding of the corrections to what Brigham Young and others taught is that spiritual curses or separations come by spiritual choices or by impositions by others and not by blood lines. And for polygamy, the focus was on raising families in a Biblical covenant and typically not what the world assumed. Today we achieve the same goals without polygamy by programs to support families including adoption, youth programs, etc.

The theological debates are fascinating about the meaning of Jesus and the Psalms in referring to humans as "gods". Suffice it to say that we humans could only achieve this grace through a higher power.

I really have to chuckle at posts like SFCANATIVE's, who includes quotations from the Journal of Discourses. How disappointing it must be to learn that hardly anybody in the Church gives a fig about the Journal. It is never quoted in any Church meeting or conference. It is not part of any document or revelation on which Church doctrine or practice is based. It has about as much relevance to Latter-day Saints as the price of latinum in the Delta Quadrant.

The only people who care anything about the Journal are Mormon-bashers. They weep, wail, and gnash their teeth ad nauseum about the Journal; they think they've discovered a treasure trove of material that will horrify the masses. The problem is, the masses don't care. These pathetic losers just continue doing what they are compelled to do, all the while completely ignoring what Otterson actually writes, but in the end, it won't make the slightest difference.

The other piece of entertainment available in this comments section are Woodstock-41's posts, which constitute clear evidence of a mental breakdown.

Opponents of religion continue to use this age-old fear tactic. "Do you really want a President who believes this crazy thing?" or "Do you want a President who listens to religious leaders?"

Kennedy faced these same anti-religion voices when he gave his famous address: "But if the time should ever come," he vowed, "... when my office would require me to either violate my conscience or violate the national interest, then I would resign the office."

Sometimes these voices come from opposing belief systems. Kennedy had to address Protestants who didn't like how Catholics follow the Pope.

Mormons, including Romney, are bound by covenant to follow every teaching, pronouncement, utterance and direction of their "prophet" on earth. Here is what one of those prophets commanded of the Mormons, a prophetic direction which still stands today: "Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 110). "Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 266). Also, "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p. 269). "I say now, when they [his discourses] are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible . . . " Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 264; see also p. 95). I ask: Is this the belief system of someone we want running the country?

The practice of religion is rooted in not in "belief," but in collective experience. Or, to put it differently, it is more empirical than theoretical.

One can measure the number of fantasies people claim to experience, it is this measurement which is empirical. The fantasies themselves are still fantasies.

A collective fantasy is a provided fantasy. People are too lazy, too unimaginative to invent their own. Collective fantasies are still fantasies.

Most of these religious fantasies handed down to us today all contain the dire threat of eternal extinction, eternal torture, if you don't believe them.

That is belief. You can try to make your judgement of these fantasies sound as scientific as possible, but you're just plain wrong.

woodstock-41 - what on earth have you been smoking?

F A R N A Z_M A N S U R I, et al: &

D E M T S E, et al:

"OYE", "WOW"!

Demtse:

Addendum to post

Many Hindus are also scared. Fear transcends the color and religion line. Atheists are scared--pick a reason.

All this mormonism white supremacy is scaring the bejesus out of jews and non-white people...

Posted by: demts
-----------------------------
Nonwhites are scared because of Mormon racism. Gays are scared because of Mormon homophobia. Many christians are scared becuase of the foregoing. Ditto, many Muslims. And many Jews.

Oooopsss. Correction:

O' TEA PARTY?

att: FREDj et al;

i[WE] used to have a PALOMINO [Horse] named "BEK" {pbuh} in Coney Island & Flushing, New York long ago.. And

me Bek (Horse) was/is Smarter than [MAYGOG, NOt G_D GOG, Player) Glenn Beck, the Shmeck and others, is the wannabe god Player, or is it 'Horse Player"? oopss, God wannabe Player. Aye!

PS: Ye/Yo should see the Scars on me body friom all that 'Horse Breaking' (NO Saddle Bots-n-Gals). EeeeHaaaaaa! U.S.A & Friendly's!

PS: This character [Satanic figure] Glenn Beck is a PUPPET of the VATICAN, aka the "Mother/Father Of Harlot's, Imported from Europe!

O' "TEA-PARTY"!

att:

ESTMED, oops, DEMTSE et al;

iNterestin.

All this mormonism white supremacy is scaring the bejesus out of jews and non-white people...

The bucolic vision of the Mormon community as warm-hearted respecters of all traditions and viewpoints is just plain silly:

This is a white-knuckled reactionary sect devoted exclusively to Conformance, Compliance, Control, Organizational-Perpetuation, and above all else: Image.

Glen Beck may just be Mormonism's most prominent symptom ...

Oooopss. Example:

There is a time for DAD (Republicans) to take over the House(s) (for a While or who's presence how ever long via CURRENT-EVENTS; i.e., Terrorist threats, or to Economy & Friendly's etc.. is needed) AND

There is a time for MOM (Democrats) to take-over the House(s) (for a while or Who's Presence how-ever long via CURRENT EVENTS; lalala is likewise needed).

Brethren Otterson et al;

Please know that as WE[i] see IT (current Events: Political that is) Is THAT

A DEMOCRAT is Like a "Sunni?" and a REPUBLICAN is like a "Shia?". And or

The DEMOCRAT is like a "WOMAN" and the REPUBLICAN is like a "FATHER". And a "Liberal is Like a Schizophrenic. Example:

When things are 'normal' in Sweet Sweet U.S. of A. & on S.pace-S.hip Earth(s); That the Mother (Sunni, aka Moderate (only an analogy, so don't get any ideas Ishlami's whom r reading this) is in charge of the House-Chores. But

But When Things in Sweet Sweet U.S.of A's is in Danger of External forces/People/Nations/TERRORISTS, THEN

The Father (Shia, aka Conservative) is in charge of both Domestic 'Chores" (i.e. House Cleaning etc..) AND

in charge of the None-Domestic Household (chores & more). Especially in "TiMES" (forget Prophetics) Of National Emergency. Soo

When the Danger to Posterity & 'Family' & Future & 'Country' is No Longer a Threat; Then & Only Then can MOM do her (Natural) thing and DAD resume his daily choirs!

PS: Ironically; During Times of PEACE, PAZ, MIR.... that Nations Build-Up Weapons (via "R & D") for Offense & Or Defense "Intentions".

It is This {Pre-Apocalyptic} Mentality which MUST END!

Praise The HOLYi NO-MON/WOM; Only "IT" [No "HE" nor a "SHE"].

Shaaame on [JEALOUS] Richard Dawkins & CO.!

Glen Beck and the "I'm a Mormon" campaign: loose the second "m"

"When one learns science and history, one is not being converted--there is no set belief."

Actually, that is a matter of some controversy within the sciences these days. I would agree with you, but there are others who insist that one should actually BELIEVE in the premises of one's discipline as dogmas, rather than simply treating them as working assumptions.

Meanwhile, religion is not really about "belief" in the usual modern sense of that word. The whole notion of "belief" as intellectual assent to dogma is an invention of non-believers of the Enlightenment era, who did not really get religion. That it is now accepted uncritically by some would-be believers just shows how little influence real religious thinkers have had in our culture for the past three centuries.

The practice of religion is rooted in not in "belief," but in collective experience. Or, to put it differently, it is more empirical than theoretical.

Emerging Moronism brings us sterling characters like Glen Beck, Harry Reid and Mitt Romney.

Emerging Moronism is certainly not doing our politics any good.

"What is it about humans that makes us want to believe rather than to know?"

Believing is easy; learning and understanding is usually more difficult.

I wonder about the phenomenon of conversion to Mormonism or any other religion. When one learns science and history, one is not being converted--there is no set belief. What is it about humans that makes us want to believe rather than to know? The same credulity which leads to conversion to, say, Mormonism, leads to conversion to, say, Islam. To the extent that romantic idealism is the stuff of intolerance (even dictatorship), we need to bring up children who are more skeptical of all claims--and this very definitely includes the claims of religion.

Mormons like most Christians are fine. It is the political activities of their leaders that is alien. The baptists have been hijacked by racists and xenophobes; the LDS is in danger of the same thing happening. No more tax deductible religion.

I believe in the views of Dallin H. Oaks here, http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/religious-freedom

I have been living among the Mormons since 1961. I married a Mormon girl. I actually converted to the Church in 1968 even though I consider myself pretty much agnostic. I was initially attracted to the Church because of its moderation. Even though it is an evangelical church, it has always been a more moderate to progressive faith as opposed to say, the more fundamentalist Baptist sects, particularly those in the South.

But, the Church has changed in recent years. It has been more welcoming to people like Glenn Beck. The type of people coming into the Mormon church now are not all that different from the rabidly fundamentalist types one finds in so many evangelical churches in the south.

This is beginning to cause some friction among more liberal members of the faith. There are a growing number of Mormons who are into Tea Party activities and who actively engage in spreading racist rhetoric concerning this President. This is somewhat unprecedented and goes against a basic Mormon Article of Faith.

I fear that Mormonism is becoming another far right political force rather than an agent for dispensing the Word of Christ. I'm sort of hanging on for my wife's sake but I have to tell you, my feelings toward the Mormon church have changed and I cannot believe I am the only one.

I have been living among the Mormons since 1961. I married a Mormon girl. I actually converted to the Church in 1968 even though I consider myself pretty much agnostic. I was initially attracted to the Church because of its moderation. Even though it is an evangelical church, it has always been a more moderate to progressive faith as opposed to say, the more fundamentalist Baptist sects, particularly those in the South.

But, the Church has changed in recent years. It has been more welcoming to people like Glenn Beck. The type of people coming into the Mormon church now are not all that different from the rabidly fundamentalist types one finds in so many evangelical churches in the south.

This is beginning to cause some friction among more liberal members of the faith. There are a growing number of Mormons who are into Tea Party activities and who actively engage in spreading racist rhetoric concerning this President. This is somewhat unprecedented and goes against a basic Mormon Article of Faith.

I fear that Mormonism is becoming another far right political force rather than an agent for dispensing the Word of Christ. I'm sort of hanging on for my wife's sake but I have to tell you, my feelings toward the Mormon church have changed and I cannot believe I am the only one.

Utah's unique history must have something to do with its being a very Republican state, but if we imagine Utah having been Methodist instead, I suspect it would be full of conservative Methodists, similar to those in Wyoming.

The mormon church, like all other christian churches in particular in America, engages in representation without taxation.

That's where the problem lies. How is this any better than taxation without representation?

You're given a free ride on taxes -- which surprisingly enough I happen to agree with. Taxation is control, you put one cult of christians in control of the government and they'll find a way to tax all the others to their own cult's benefit.

When the church itself engages in political activities, as with proposition 8 in california, that is Partisan by nature. Prop 8 is part of the political process in California, and you people stuck your big rich christan thumb in the eye of everybody who disagreed with you on this issue.

You can't have it both ways. And really, do you want the other christians noticing you so much? It's the other christians who hate you, you know that.

As a Mormon, I am deeply concerned about the Republican culture of the Church. They can deny partisanship all they like, but reality says it is a Republican church. I have seen Democrats effectively shunned on the local level. Even when Church leader Marlin Jensen stated a few years ago that the Church needed more Democrats, he was publicly excoriated by GOP leaders, including former Rep. Jim Hansen, and nothing more was ever said. Jensen was not defended by the leadership. This is an issue that is truly serious. The Church is perceived as Republican, and this has indeed affected missionary efforts, including in Europe. This Republican/conservative culture has to end if the Church truly wants to be an international church of Christ instead of a conservative institution that essentially excludes over half of the population. Maybe it is time for the Church leadership to hit this head-on instead of dodging the problem, It won't go away, and denying the cultural identification with a political party is nonsense. The Church did it before in the 19th Century, and for the sake of the Church and the Gospel, it must be done again.

The Mormon Church, that essentially has a Republican, right-wing theocracy in Utah, is misrepresenting the truth.

Forming a huge multi-state PAC to support Prop 8 and directly giving money to anti-gay campaigns in Alaska and Hawaii is hardly staying out of politics.

The revival of Rove's manipulated neochristians through Glenn Beck Christianity is more reason to withdraw tax exemptions from "religions" that fraudulently abuse them.

Mr. Otterson warns, "reflective of an outdated yet deeply entrenched tendency to stereotype Mormons."

I would suggest that stereotypical views of Mormonism are continually reinforced by the teachings of the church itself. As long as the church claims that its central scripture, the Book of Mormon, is a true history of Hebrew peoples in the Americas, it will never be able to fit into the mainstream, religious or otherwise. And while the LDS church vigorously attempts to disassociate itself from its practice of polygamy, the doctrine of "celestial marriage" remains central in the church. Indeed, it was the sexual habits of the church's founder, Joseph Smith, that resulted in his murder.

Mormonism is at a crossroads. If it wants to say, "We're just like the other faiths," will it be able to survive the amputation of those elements that make it so alien?

@SFCanative (part 2)

I'm wondering about your assertion that only tax-paying entities can speak in the public forum to "sway public policy." Is there a legal basis for your assertion or is that just your personal opinion?

If it's your personal opinion, that's fine. I can respect that. But I'm wondering if there is actually some legal meat to your opinion.

@SFCANATIVE

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints did advise its members to support Prop 8, you're correct. The Church retains its right to speak out on issues it deems important... usually those of "moral" consequence.

What you missed is that "Mr. Otterson" said that membership lists or other resources are not used for PARTISAN politics. Check the part you quoted; it's right there.

Prop 8 was/is not a partisan issue. Period.

Great article! What's with all the weirdos posting comments in all or part or random capital letters? Go back and read the article and stop ranting.

Churches have no business dictating public policy. If their membership wishes to speak up, like a Glenn Beck for example, so be it. The non-tax paying church entity has NO voice in government. NONE. If they wish to get involved in politics, they can pay corporate taxes like everyone else.

(And paleeeese don't post that sorry old song that the Mormon church pays taxes on profits from all of their varied business interests.)

Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

Aummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

Amennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.. AND now

EKLAHtttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt-i

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PEACE,PAZ,SHALOM,SALAAM,AHIMSA,MIR, ZHINGYU..
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.Sing: "Happy Everyday Today..." Praise the Holyi-NO-MON/WOM! HAILALUYA!

PS: The "EUCHARIST" must be Out-Lawed or Abandoned, in all of Sweet Sweet U.S.A. & on all of S.S. Earth {for the "Future-Bound & the Space-Forth" GENE-POOLS}.
.
..... Credit "JJ" http://onwapo.com

Thank you for the much needed viewpoint.

Correction:

" It is The "MOROMONS" via the "MELCHIZEDEK" Whom Revers'th the Pre-APocalyptic "WAR-BLESSINGS" of the "PiSCES-AGE" whom will Gracefully "Bring" or Deliver'th unto ALL, every and any HUUMATES (no more Humans) a "NEW-COVENANT" or "PEACE-BLESINGS" for A NEW-AGE of FAiTH EXCHANGING in the "AQUARiUS-AGE" (not Horoscope; Not Astrology et al);"

YE/YO know NOt what His Honorable, JO Smith {pbuh et al] completely meant. Note: Your Title Should Be: "VANGUARD OF MORMMON/XRSTiANs"

Hint: IF Ishlami/Esaui Pish-Poor Pakistan can Posses "PLUTONIUM" [processed Yellow Cake] Then Let Them, aka the "VANGUARDS of ISHLAMI/ESAUMi" Eat Yellow Cake Instead! Let Them Barter with U.N. or U.S. FOOD FOR URANiUM"; Else let the 54+ Ishlami U.N. of "OIC"s take care of Them; Not U.N. (mostly made-up of KAFIRS; None Ishlami/Esaumi's). O' Evil Empires! {includes Jealous SINO's/Chinko's, & their sneaky Co-Partners in Crime).

iMportantanto: If Ye/Yo Read'th what Sir 'STEPHEN HAWKiNG's NEW-BOOK, "G-R-A-N-D--D-E-S-i-G-N" say, Then "IT" is time that Mormon's Adopt HIS Prophecy. ELSE, Perish! Please see: Entitled: "SiR STEPHEN HAWKiNGS, Beyond Einstein, Dirac & Spinoza?" http://www.onwapo.com/

Secret: As EKLAHt-i-ON's, aka HUUMATES or as "Automatic Born Citizens/Denizens of Holi-S.pace-S.hip Earth; That It is The "MORONS" via the "MELCHIZEDEK" Whom Revers'th the Pre-APocalyptic "WAR-BLESSINGS" of the "PiSCES-AGE" whom will Gracefully "Bring" or Deliver'th unto ALL, every and any HUUMATES (no more Humans) a "NEW-COVENANT" or "PEACE-BLESINGS" for A NEW-AGE of FAiTH EXCHANGING in the "AQUARiUS-AGE" (not Horoscope; Not Astrology et al); Then

"Healing of Nation"s & Genuine "World-Peace" & Many many more good Tidings. It is the EKLAHt-i-ON (aka; HUUMATES not Humans anymore) Prophecy, and Melchizedek's Promise [TO AMERIKa/o 1st; then rest of world 2nd].!

Note: Stephen Hawking's et al, art "APOCALYPTARiAN's", a/k/a believers of the HOlyi-COsmic-Feelers-Faith" (a Belief, Better than Pre-Apocalyptarians Religion & more!

YES! iMagine the "RELiGION of everything , Before the SCiENCE of everything!?

Note: WE[i] art NOt MORMON's, but Prophetically, i[WE][ Love Ye/YO , LDS's, as the "2nd-Chosen"!

O' "S-H-i-L-O-M", a/k/a The "Photon/light Bringer of The Apocalypse "on Sweet Sweet S.S. Earth, aka S.S. GAiA, S.S. GEOiD, S.S. TELLUSng something & more.

PS: Brethren Sir Stephen Hawking's is OUR (of the O.ne U.niversal R.eligion) Prophet [note: NOt a Saint!].

O' L-O-R-D! Praise the HOLYi-NO-MON/WOM! aka "IT" being "iTSELF, in and out of US all, in "ETERNITY AVOiDING LONELiNESS" thing.

PS: O' ye slick, but NOt Evil/Satinic.. MORMON's, Beware of the Jealous Evil "VATICAN" empire! Do NOt mingle with them NICOLATIANS!, aka "MOTHER/FATHER of Harlots from Europe et seq! ELSE

Ye & CO., will be Destroyed & considered like(un)wise as NICOLATIAN's [Human's] too. Forget what happened at Sodom & Gomorrah!!

Secret: There is "M-THEORY" but now There is Apocaltpytarian's; "G-THEORY", aka EKLAHt-iON(s) or "R-THEORY"! [Where "R"= Religion or "G"= 'IT' or being 'iTSELF' [IN & OUT of US ALL

"Mormonism is Christianity plus some very stupid ideas" -- Sam Harris

Regardless of their family and community values, the very premises of Mormonism HAVE to be injurious to the thinking process. Trying to introduce America into the biblical chronology is just bad history and terrible science. Unlike the Judeo-Christian bible, the Book of Mormon is archaelogically useless.

As a secularist, I get a lot from reading actual histories of the biblical period, by authors like William Dever, Israel Finkelstein, Lawrence Boadt, and (for Christians) Bart Ehrman. By contrast, the works of convicted swindler Joseph Smith is just made up nonsense to collect tithes from Americans.

"World Public Affairs Function of "C(JS)LDS" (Mormon for Short), a Former Editor For News Papers" (for LDS)?

Churches are allowed to make public stances on policy issues. Under the U.S. Constitution, all churches have a right to have their voices represented in the public square. There is a distinction between that and supporting specific political candidates or parties (i.e. "partisan"). This comes because Freedoms of Speech and Religion allow churches to speak up on issues they consider moral ones. In opposition are those who believe churches and their constituents should not be allowed to be vocal publicly about policy issues--unless, of course, the stance is politically correct. Prop 8 was not a partisan issue: Democrats and Republicans voted on both sides of the aisle. It would be unfortunate indeed if churches were silenced in supporting issues they considered moral in public.

Oh, no, Mr. Otterson, Mormon leadership doesn't exploit "... membership lists or other resources to be used for partisan political purposes."

Unless, of course, it's a proposition on the California ballot (Prop 8) which you co-sponsored and endorsed. Then you step right in with cash, church resources, members and lies to sway public opinion.

After the deception is complete, the State of California Fair Political Practices Commission FINES the Mormon church THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS for deceptive practices. The Mormon church gladly PAYS the reduced fine. Damage done nevertheless.

You lied in your article. Your church lies to the public. You've been spinning the same tale for 180 years. Nothing has changed.