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Thank you, Mr. Wright, for speaking the truth about the Lord, Jesus Christ. I find the reason that unbelievers are so filled with disdain and sarcasm toward Jesus and His flock is that they're afraid 1)He won't answer if they call, and 2)that if He does answer it would be a figment of their imaginations. The greatest proof is seeing for yourself. God promises He can be found in Jeremiah 29:11, and we can expect He will honor His word, lest all Christians be made liars. The job of the seeker? To seek Him with all your heart. That's all.

The Evidence, is what Josh McDowell sought, as he attempted prove that the Jesus "christians" beleive in, worship and follow as Lord was a fraud, a fool or a Myth.

The comment by a learned proffessor "I disagree with your conclusions because of my philosphical outlook" says it all.

I know what I beleive do not confuse me with facts that I will not accept.

Jesus found the same when he walked the earth, healed the sick and raised the dead, they those who refused him, saw but would not beleive. He commanded his disciples to do the same. "teaching them everything I have commanded of you".

Its no different today, but some beleived and they changed the world.

How about you, are you changing the world, is Jesus changing you?

Are you willing to test the claims of this carpenter from Nazareth, its dangerous just ask Josh McDowell.

God Changed his point of View, his life and his eternal destiny.

Dave

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I could speak from the many tangibles proofs of the existent of Godbeing ontological, cosmological, telelogical, and even from maoral code creation and you could refute orm try to in some way. Yet, what Jesus did when I turned my life over to him the freedom from a life of pornography, alcohol, and many other sins I need not mention, you cannot refute. It is not the books that prove or disprove who Jesus is but rather what happens in one's heart when he shines his light into the darkness of our lives.

9 ὅτι ἐὰν ὁμολογήσῃς ἐν τῷ στόματί σου κύριον Ἰησοῦν καὶ πιστεύσῃς ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ σου ὅτι ὁ θεὸς αὐτὸν ἤγειρεν ἐκ νεκρῶν, σωθήσῃ· 10 καρδίᾳ γὰρ πιστεύεται εἰς δικαιοσύνην, στόματι δὲ ὁμολογεῖται εἰς σωτηρίαν.

Bishop W_Right exactly so. When I was a child in an orphanage, a lady came up to me and looked deeply into my eyes saying that my eyes are dark brown aren't they? ah huh...I said...what else is a child to do? She must have seen something from across the room. Something that perhaps only Angels can see? A "Shining" I now suppose. I have often prayed to God asking to be God's Soldier, God's Weapon, God's Tool, God's Hand...and it always seemed that in doing what I thought was right, or the lesser of two evils, I paid a heavy cost. I wonder now if God was testing to see if this vessel was worthy. I guess I got a tentative approval...I thought all was all but lost for me, and my God, my dear Sweet God lifts me back up. As Always. Thank you Bishop. God Bless you, your family and your entire flock. May you sow God's Love and Reap God's Joy forever more. Ask and you shall receive. amen.

Let me just say that if you see the words, "overwhelming, massive, irrefutable evidence," then you should be very catious when reading any paragraphs after that.

What I have found is that a lot of what we accept as "proof" has to do with what sources we trust. Burton Wolfe may provide some evidence of some sort, but it's only going to be "overwhelming and irrefutable" to those who do not accept the New Testament texts as they stand.

Burton H. Wolfe wrote above: "The problem with self-described "Christians" is that they cannot get it through their feeble brains that scriptures do not provide evidence of anything."

Well, why is it that scriptures are automatically ruled out as historical sources? Notice there is no reason given. Because they were written up after the fact to reflect the church's agenda? Perhaps; but then again perhaps not. How can we know if we do not even examine them to test their credibility as historical sources? Clearly the scriptures do provide evidence that some Jews and/or Gentiles in the 1st century believed certain things about Jesus. Now whether or not those beliefs are true is what needs to be examined. To imply that the New Testament is totally worthless is to cut off all dialogue on this topic before it even has a chance to start. But then maybe that is what Mr. Wolfe wants, since I am clearly one of those "Christians [...] with [...] feeble brains." Perhaps a little more humility (not just on one side, but both) might result in a less polarized and more constructive debate.

Matthew Varnell

"Blessed are those who have not seen...and yet believed." - Guess Who?

I see there is a lot of debate here about whether or not there is this alleged "massive historical evidence". As someone else already pointed out, Josephus' alleged references to Jesus are probably Christian forgeries. But, even if they are not, Josephus validates very little of the Christian story.

One apologist in this thread said that if we were to dig up four biographies of someone unknown to us, even if they differed some, that would be sufficient to conclude there probably was such a person. And, overall, I'd agree. *UNLESS*, there is some counter-evidence. And, indeed, there is some counter-evidence. Now, I'll concede the counter-evidence isn't air-tight, and so I don't assert with certainty that there was no actual Jesus. There could have been. But, if there was, what we know about this person is very little. The is NO contemporary reference to Jesus, meaning someone writing while he was still alive.

And, the same would be true if we were to dig up four biographies of somebody else otherwise unknown. If these four biographies were by unknown authors at an unknown period after the person's life, undocumented as to how the evidence was gathered, etc., we could come to the same conclusion: Maybe this person existed, but we can't say anything conclusive.

So, Mr. Wright, you simply are not being accurate when you say there is a wealth of evidence for a historical Jesus. There might have been one, but there is certainly no such wealth of evidence.

Jesus is God Almighty and every person who has ever lived will one day kneel before Him and acknowledge His diety. He came and died for our sins so that we would not have to be eternally seperated from the Godhead. Anyone who puts their faith fully in Him by acknowledging their sin and asking Him to forgive them and come into their life will be born again and receive a new spirit. Amazingly, you have just read the truth of God's plan but how many of you will come to the Lord as you are and let Him apply to your life the gracious work He did for you at the cross?

Name: Agha Dilbar(deserves for the noble peace prize)

Website:No-1 aghadilbar No-2 aghadilbar2 No-3 aghadilbar3

E-mail aghadilbar3@yahoo.com

Location: Lahore, Pakistan

Topic: Peace Comments Change the World with Peace and Prosperity 10-Million Urgent Peace letters to Head of States, UN, Parliaments, Political Parties, TV News Channels, International Newspapers, Magazines, Universities, Think tanks, Amnesty International and Welfare NGOs, all over the World Subject: Friendship, Progress and Prosperity for peace throughout the World I Agha Dilbar Founder International Revolution Movement have sent10-Million research Peace Letters to International Community from 11-September 2001(9/11) till today about War on Terror. Our NGO International Revolution Movement (IRM) has 3-Principles, Friendship, Progress and Prosperity all over the World. Our NGO, s programmed is for The Welfare of International Community and to save the Human Being from 3rd World War and World Terrorism. I Agha Dilbar have a Great Peace Plan for Kashmir, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Middle East and Iraq to stop and eliminate Suicidal Bomb Attacks and State Terrorism, all over The World. Some Powerful Underground Groups want to begin 3rd World War for their worst intentions. World should remember that religion Islam is a religion of Peace Security, Fraternity and Love. We Muslims are not concerned with any sort of Terrorism; Terrorists are only using the name of Islam. Likewise people using the name of Islam to pretence are not Muslims. They are only Terrorists. I, Agha Dilbar on emergency ground want to present solid suggestions to International Community, regarding their policies on War against Terrorism, Can be saved from Economic Crisis, I should be given a chance to make Open Speech and Dialogue, on the leading TV News Channels to eliminate Poverty, Unemployment and Lawlessness at International level. I am warning the International Community that according to my previous Research spread over a period of 5-years; it is evident that sufficient Intentional or Unintentional efforts have not been made to eradicate The Root Causes of Terrorism in all its forms and manifestations (Suicide Bombing and Destructive Tendencies). As a result thereof it is quite possible that there may be dramatic hundred times (100%) Increase in the Incidences of Terrorism and Suicide Bombing in the near future. For the sake of World Peace, I therefore request the International Community to provide me an Opportunity to explain to them, the root causes of World Terrorism and Suicide Bombings as to take bold steps to put an end to its basic causes. In Nutshell instead of using Brute Force, try to solve the matter through Table Talk. I should convince those who are on the wrong track that they are their Well - wisher and are interested to develop Friendship for mutual Progress. In the Reward of my Sincere Services, I please be given a chance of Official Visit to Interested Countries for Elaborating my Great Peace Plan before the Head of States and other concerned Higher Authorities. Regards Please Donate Funds for International Peace Campaign for conveying message of Peace through Friendship, Progress and Prosperity by International Revolution Movement in a better way 1000 times more, We Need Funds on Urgent Bases. Please send your Donations to Bank account: Allied Bank of Pakistan, Lahore Branch: ABL, Allama Iqbal Town, Lahore-0688Account: Agha Dilbar Account No.001100-5809-2 Agha Dilbar founder International Revolution Movement64-neelum, Allama Iqbal Town, Lahore (Pakistan) Ph: 0092-42-7830084, Mobile: 0300-4370258 (website:aghadilbar) Thanks for using this service. Please E-mail these peace letters to your friends, for the welfare of Humanity. Thank you for your participation. We appreciate your contribution for Humanity (Live with Dignity and Dye with Grace. Guide Line from Agha Dilbar) Agha Dilbar,s Urgent Peace Letter No.2) Subject: Agha Dilbar request for a chance of Open Speech and Dialogue To World Community for Peace. We want Peace not War. I Agha Dilbar have a Great Peace Plan for the World Community. This is A Great Treasure for Humanity. After following my Great Peace Plan, War on Terror will fight through UN Principles. I request to all the Head of States, UN, Parliaments, Political Parties, TV News Channels, International Newspapers and Magazines, Think Tanks, Universities, Amnesty International And Welfare NGOs, Please invite me in your Countries, Institutions, TV Shows, Media Forums to give me a chance of Open Speech and Dialogue about my Great Peace Plan. Thanks .I am sure that my Great Peace Plan will protect the Impending 3rd world War. After following the instructions contained in my Great Peace Plan, People of The World become Prosperous and Developed according to the latest Scientific Era. I Agha Dilbar have a Great Peace Plan, which depends upon, Friendship, Progress and Prosperity throughout the World. I hope that World Community will favor my Great Peace Plan quickly. Any question about my Great Peace Plan? Write directly to me. Thanks and Regards. Agha Dilbar,s Urgent Peace Letter No. 3) Subject: Make the UN Peace Force strongest force of the World to save The World coming from on 3rd World War and State Terrorism, I Agha Dilbar warns the World Community that Israel should be Stopped from genocide and atrocities committed in Palestine and Labnan, In the wake of these Atrocities there must be more Suicidal Bombing and many other Horrible Incidences like 9/11 Attacks due to revenge, which can cause 3rd World War Any time.1) To begin the coming 3rd World War the owners of many Armament producing Factories are playing their roll very actively; so that they can get New Orders after the old stock get exhausted during the 3rd World War. I am putting on alert, UN, Head of States, Parliaments, Political Parties, TV News Channels, International Newspapers and Magazines, Universities, Think Tanks, Amnesty International and welfare NGO,s all over the World, that afterThe3rd World War the Progress and Prosperity of all the Rich, Developed, Under Developed, Poor and Backward Countries of the World will become a dream In the wake of their Economic Crisis.3) Current Powerful, Rich and Developed Nations should keep in mind, That Even if they conquer the Weak Poor and Backward Nations their Armies will Have to face an upended Gorilla War in the occupied regions for the Next Five, Ten or Twenty Years, which might result in the destruction of? Their Defense Power and Economy. Here is a live example of Palestine, Kashmir, Chechnya, Afghanistan and Iraq.4) According to Agha Dilbar strategy, the entire giant disputes of the World Like Palestine, Kashmir Chechnya, Afghanistan and Iraq could only be solved Through UN Peace Force, after making it the strongest force in the World. I am positive that instead of using the wrong tactics of power in solving The above mentioned disputes of the World, will try to solve these amicably Through Friendship, Progress and Prosperity can avert World Terrorism and 3rd World War. Agha Dilbar,s Urgent Peace Letter No.4)Subject: Agha Dilbar,s request to Rich and Developed Nations not to crush Underdeveloped and Poor Nations with State Terrorism or by starting 3rdWorld War .As per my research the State Terrorism in Kashmir, Palestine, Chechnya, Afghanistan and Iraq may cause of 3rd World War and Hundred Times Suicide Bombing all over the World. My message to UN is to crush the State Terrorism through UN Peace Force in Kashmir, Palestine and Chechnya. Also in the war affected areas. UN Peace Force should make practical efforts to solve Disputes with Table Talk, through Friendship Progress and Prosperity; All over the World .I hope the UN would be successful by implementing my Great Peace Plan, Friendship, Progress and Prosperity in disputed countries all over the World. If UN failed to bring Peace in these countries then 3rd World War and World Terrorism would be resulting in death of Twenty Crore People and Complete destruction of World Economy. Remember as per my research the next 3rd World War would not be an Atomic War, but it will be fought through traditional newly invented Dangerous Weapons. There will be no doubt that Developed and Rich Countries Forces Equipped with newly invented Dangerous Weapons will win the 3rd World War. In case of starting 3rd World War, Developing Countries and their Survival Countries involved in the long Gorilla War for their survival. Resultantly the World Community will totally collapse. Therefore in view above stated positions, the Developed Countries, possessing Fatal Weapons Should, instead of conquering the Under Developed, Poor Countries by Force, May achieve the goal through Friendship, Progress and Prosperity with the help of UN, so that permanent World Peace should be brought. Agha Dilbar s Urgent Peace Letter No.5) Subject: New Revolutionary Planning to eradicate the worst Economic Crisis at the International Level I Agha Dilbar present new revolutionary planning to the World Community to Eradicate the worst Economic Crisis. After the implementation of these Suggestions all the Developed Rich Countries and Underdeveloped Poor Countries will enter in a new golden era of Friendship, Progress andProsperity.1) According to new business strategy of Agha Dilbar, all the Developed and Rich Countries of Europe, America and Asia will contribute @ 1% of their Annual National Budgets as a free aid to the Underdeveloped, Poor Countries for their Education, Health and Agriculture projects.2) In future all the Developed Rich Countries will make a final Decision to Produce commercial loans in Agriculture, Industry, Trade and Education at The rate of 1% Interest.3) In future all the Developed Rich Countries of the World will get the50%Profit of all the commercial projects installed in Agriculture, Industry, Trade and Education fields, of poor and underdeveloped countries. Rest of the 50% profit will be spent on the welfare projects of Underdeveloped Poor Countries in the fields of Health, Education, Agriculture and Industry etc.4) Moreover Developed Rich Countries of the World will bound to pay 50% of their earnings in Gas, Oil, Electricity and in the projects of minerals like Coal, Steel, Jewels, Gold as royalty to the Underdeveloped Poor Countries of The World.5) In future Developed Rich Countries of the World will make a treaty Through BOOT, according to which Under Developed Poor Countries will Provide Free land on 20 years lease for the commercial projects in Agriculture, Industry, Trade and Education etc. Under the BOOT_ Treaty all the Investors of Developed Rich Countries will Hand Over their Business Assets, Buildings, Machinery and Transport to the Undeveloped Poor Countries after 20_Years Free of cast.5) after above said business strategy, introduced by Agha Dilbar in Future may avoid World Terrorism and 3rd World War on its implementation. This Plan requires the Rich Developed Countries to invest on big commercial Projects In the fields of Agriculture; Industry and Trade in Under Developed Poor Countries to promote Friendship, mutual Progress and Prosperity. Agha Dilbar s Urgent Peace Letter No.6) Subject: Agha Dilbar Great Peace Plan to give the command of forces of All The countries UN Peace Force to decide War against any TerroristCountry.1) Under the resolution of UN Security Council, to control the coming 3rd World War and World Terrorism, to make the UN Peace Force the most Powerful Force of the World. Following rules and regulations will be acted upon.2) In future UN Peace Force would be given the command of forces of all The Countries and UN Peace Force will decide whether to wage a War against any Terrorist Country or not.3) In future UN Peace Force will be Independent to take any timely Action against Terrorist Country.4) Under the UN Security Council Resolution, UN will take the charge of all Armament Producing Factories of the World in future. And in the said Factories the production would be curtailed to 25% only, and the rest of 75%Production would take place in the form of Cars, Buses, Trucks, Tractors, Trains, Ships, Aero Planes and Latest Machinery.5) After tacking the charge of all the International Forces, UN Peace Force will convert 25% of army into UN Peace Force, and rest of the 75% will be? 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The rich nations in spite of their victory will have to face the Destruction of their Defense Power and Economy in the Long Gorilla War.1) According to Agha Dilbar s research on War against Terrorism Rich and Developed Countries of the World should never take an emotional step of Initiating the War on the bases of their Defense and their EconomicPower2) If their exist such few Terrorist Countries, then to destroy such Countries War should be fought from the platform of UN Peace Force .3) Rich and Powerful Countries should remember that due to state Terrorism In Kashmir, Palestine, Chechnya, Afghanistan and Iraq the bloody events Like 9/11 could take hundred times in revenge.4) If Rich and Powerful Nations do not take a positive and strong step To Stop the State Terrorism in Kashmir, Palestine, Chechnya through UN Peace Force and instead they start aimless 3rd World War, then their would be Hundred Times more Suicidal Terrorist Attacks in revenge.5) According to Agha Dilbar s research, in the wake of 3rd World War, Twenty Crore innocent people will fall prey to death .6) In the wake of expected 3rd World War Rich and Powerful Nations in Spite of becoming victorious will have to face a worst Gorilla War in theNext5, 10, 20 years, which will destroy the Defense and Economic Power of Victorious countries.7) According to Agha Dilbar s Research, World Terrorism and Suicidal Bombing Should be rooted out through UN Peace Force or through Table Talk.8) It is the best Advice to Rich and Powerful Nations from Agha Dilbar That Instead of staging 3rd World War they should keep the veneration of the Global village and its people and try to solve the disputed problems Through UN Table Talk and take the step of Friendship for mutual Progress and Prosperity. Agha Dilbar s Urgent Peace Letter No.8) Subject: A New Plan of Agha Dilbar for solutions of disputes between Enemy Countries instead War or Terrorism and convert them to promote, Friendship Mutual Progress and Prosperity1) The disputed issues should be resolved through Table Talk instead of War or Terrorist Activities, between enemy countries.2) The enemy countries should launch mutual Cultural Shows on permanent basis.3) The disputed enemy countries start on large scale mutual Import /Export Facility on Barter Treaty.4) The Disputed Enemy Countries should provide mutual Scholarships to their Talent Students on equal basis.5) The disputed enemy countries should sign Mutual Pacts to construct Schools, Colleges, Universities and Hospitals for welfare purposes.6) The disputed enemy Countries should sign pacts for reducing the Arms and Engaging their Armies for construction of Dams, Canals, Highways, Bridges, Sports Complexes, Schools, Colleges, Universities, Hospitals, Airports, Sea Ports and Heavy Industries.7) The disputed enemy countries should co-operate to finish Terrorism In their countries on equal basis.8) The disputed enemy countries should start mutual Economic Programmed for giving Jobs to Doctors, Engineers, Mechanics, Electricians and Labor on equal basis in their countries.9) The disputed enemy countries should sign mutual pacts to construct Dams, Canals, Motorways, Bridges, Five star Hotels, Airports, Seaports and Heavy Industries. With the help of above Agha Dilbar plan the disputed enemy countries would be able to solve disputes and stop War and Terrorist Activities. Agha Dilbar s Urgent Peace Letter No.9Subject: According to Agha Dilbar s research, what type of acute? Horrible and dreadful problems, World Community will have to face during and after The coming 3rd World War.1) If UN fails to avert the coming 3rd World War, which would be fought with Traditional Weapons, under these circumstances, World Community will have to Face the following expected terrible results.2) Powerful and Rich countries after making continuous attacks and Capturing At least four countries within the next few months, the 3rd World War would start Formally and it will continue for the next one year.3) In the coming 3rd World War, the allies of Powerful Rich Countries would Be Hundred in Number, and the Weak and Poor Countries against these Would also be Hundred.4) In the coming 3rd World War, around 20 Crore Innocent People would fall Prey to death, and about 50 Crore would get crippled.5) Due to the 3rd World War, about One Billion People homeless and Jobless after destruction of their cities, and they will have to live a Nomadic Life In the open places for the next 5, 10 or 20 years.6) During and after the 3rd World War there will be a 75% decline in The Business of Agriculture, Industry, Trade, Tourism, Import and Export in The Next 5 years.7) After the 3rd World War, there will be a chain of Bloody Revolutions In The Rich Develop Countries and Poor Underdeveloped Countries due to Inflation, Unemployment, Lawlessness and Corruption.8) To avert all these terrible consequences of the 3rd World War, I Agha Dilbar request UN and World Community to instead of making the Global Village a Fire, Terrorism and War, they should try to solve the burning Issues through Table Talk or UN Peace Force in a Friendly, Progressive and Prosperous way . Agha Dilbar s Urgent Peace Letter No.10) Subject: A Grate Peace Plan for UN and International Community to save The World coming on 3rd World War I Agha Dilbar put a Great Peace Plan, War against Terror, for the sake of World Community. I appeal UN to act upon my Great Peace Plan Unconditionally for the sake of World Peace.1) All countries of the World should make the strongest UN Peace Force.2) UN Peace Force should be given full authorities for the sake of World Peace in Kashmir, Chechnya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, Sari lanka and Nepal etc where Peace Plan may be implemented war effected areas and all administrative authorities may allotted to the UN Peace Force till the Peace Restored completely4) I Agha Dilbar am afraid that the World Community may enter into the3rd World War, because of such disputes among the above mentioned Nations, are Acting may induce the bloody war. Which can increase losses of life and Economy Hundred Times? Agha Dilbar s Urgent Peace Letter No.11) Subject: World Community must support the Great Peace Plan of Agha Dilbar to stop the horrible, dreadful 3rd World War and World Terrorism1) For stopping the 3rd World War, which may erupt as a result of? Retaliation in Philistine, Kashmir, Chechnya, Afghanistan and Iraq State Terrorism, the World Community should support Agha Dilbar s Great Peace Mission. For this purpose, peace rallies should be organized in all big Cities as the next 3rd World War may take 200 Million innocent human Lives, besides crippling 500 Million People and starving, homeless One Billion People in addition to carrying inherent danger of Economic Crises.2) The World Community should awaken International awareness for making The UN Peace Force as the strongest Peace Enforcing Body having its control over Armies of all UN Member Countries.3) Apparently, Agha Dilbar s Great Peace Mission is a weak but truthful Concept, which with the help of World Community will compel the strong And Superpower armies to surrender before UN.4) The World Community should keep in mind that their support of this Great Peace Mission will change the 3rd World War and World Terrorism into Friendship Progress and Prosperity then the World will enter into a new Golden era. Agha Dilbar s Urgent Peace Letter No.12) Subject: Next 3rd World War is the Oil and Economic Interest War, which will Bring numerous International Revolutions between the Conquers and Concurred Nations1) World Community must remember that next 3rd World War is represented Religious War. Infect above mention war is the Oil and Economic Interest War.2) Next 3rd World War is the Oil and Economic Interest War, which will bring Numerous International Revolutions between the Conquers and Concurred Nations.3) International Anti-war demonstrations will play historic role to Stop the 3rd World War.4) The beginning of 3rd World War will prove strong grip of bureaucracy on the Democratic Institutions.5) The suspension of 3rd World War will crush the strong grip of International Bureaucratic Institutions. Agha Dilbar s Urgent Peace Letter No.13Subject: Agha Dilbar,s Practical Steps for Peace Mission and International Community Awareness1) All the vehicles throughout the World should affix a sticker saying "Peace not War"2) Posters with the same slogan," Peace not War" should be displayed at all Public Places, like Shops, Showrooms, Hotels, Restaurants, Clubs, Schools, Colleges, Hospitals and Factories.3) World famous Singers, TV, Film and Stage Artists should present Songs, Stage Shows, Dramas and Films with this theme," Peace not War"4) World Fame commercial and industrial organizations, Banks, Mills, Import Export and Insurance Concerns should advertise with this slogan: "PeaceNotWar"5) At International Level, Amnesty International and all the welfare NGO,S should organize public rallies of "Peace not War"6) The affected classes of World would be affected, 3rd World War, like Laborers Farmers Students, Women and Children should hold rallies in support of" Peace not War"7) The Social and Political Activists Teachers, Advocates, Politicians Intellectuals, World Famous Players and Social Workers should send E-mails(With a copy through International News Papers and Magazines) for Stoppage of War to those Head of States who are preparing for War.8) According to Agha Dilbar s Thesis, the only solution for preventing The Next 3rd World War is that the UN should be converted into the Worlds Strongest Peace Force instead of baseless speech forum. Agha Dilbar,s Urgent Peace Letter No.14Subject: To stop the 3rd World War all the Anti-War Countries should make use full strongest Media Radio, TV, Internet and Newspapers1) Anti-War Countries should make appeal for Peace not War the peace Loving People of the World.2) Anti-War Countries should prove their propaganda; the Superpowers of the World are fighting for the security of their wrong Economic, Oil andPowerInterest.3) Anti-War Countries should tell to the people of the World through their Media that next 3rd World War will become the cause Death of Two Hundred Million Innocent People and make Five hundred million People disabled.4) Anti-War Countries should tell the International Community that next3rdWorld War will become the cause of One Billion People Homeless and Unemployed. In this way they will live in Nomadic Life for the next5, 10 or20 years.5) Anti-War Countries should tell the International Community that next3rdWorld War will become the collapse of 75% International Business of Agriculture, Commerce, Industry, Tourism and Import Export. In this way all Rich and Poor Countries of the World will become the cause of Inflation, Unemployment Lawlessness and Corruption with consequences of Bloodshed. Agha Dilbar,s Urgent Peace Letter No.15Subject: A few Powerful Developed Countries want to Enforce Law of Jungle (Might is Right) after Conquering the World, International Community should Stand against it, Like an Iron Wall1) For controlling the Oil Resources of World, a few Developed Countries are Planning to enslave the International Community through next 3rd WorldWar.2) World Community should resist this move of Powerful Countries, who are Launching 3rd World War through false propaganda of Terrorism and Weapons of Mass Destruction.3) The recent announcement of these countries has proved their Falsehood That they will not hesitate to form a new International Organization, if UN Security Council does not support their War Mission.4) The World Community must continue Peaceful Rallies for stopping the3rdWorld War, so that 200 Million People can be sued from Death, 500Million>From being Crippled and One Billion from Starvation and becomingHomeless.5) The World Community should act upon Agha Dilbar s Great Peace Plan by Establishing Anti-War Peace Force under UN Control.6) Agha Dilbar appeal to International Newspapers, Magazines and TV News Channels that my Great Peace Plan is printed / broadcast on urgent Basis, so that World Community must know it for stopping the 3rd World War. Agha Dilbar,s Urgent Peace Letter No.16) Subject: Stop War against Iraq for the World s Peace). 1Agha Dilbar am warning the Developed Powerful Countries to stop the War against Iraq, which can Cause of next 3rd World War any time.2) UN to make strong action to stop the War against Iraq or UN will Break any time.3) World Community should start Peaceful Demonstrations immediately against War on Iraq otherwise 6-Billion People will become the victim of Worst Economic Crisis.4) Developed Powerful Countries after winning the War against Iraq, will be Engaged in long Gorilla War next 5, 10 or 20 years which will destroy their Defense and Economic Power.5) If the present War against Iraq continues 100% Suicidal Attacks can Take Place in Revenge.6) To stop the present Iraq War, it is Agha Dilbar s Great Peace Plan UN Peace Force goes in Iraq immediately for World Peace.7) In case War against Iraq continue, there can be 100% Increase World Terrorism and Suicide Attacks which can cause the complete destruction of International Economy. Agha Dilbar,s Urgent Peace Letter No.17Subject: World Community must help War Effected, Injured Iraqis1) Agha Dilbar appeals to UN, Head of States, World Red Cross that on Humanitarian grounds practical steps should be taken to help thousands of War Effected Iraqis.2) World Community should send Doctors, Nurses and Medicines to Iraq on Large scale and on Urgent Basis.3) Immediate Food is needed for thousands of War Effected Iraqis.4) Immediate steps should be taken for provision of Employment Resources to Hundred of Thousands of People in War affected Iraqis.5) UN and Red Cross Aid distributing Teams should be immediately sent to Iraq.6) Human Rights Missions should be sent to Iraq for inspecting Prisoners of War are being dealt according to Geneva Convention or not.7) UN Network should be immediately established in Iraq for Distribution of Aid, Medicines, Food, Drinking Water and Tents etc.8) Agha Dilbar specially appeals to all Muslim Countries and International Welfare NGO,s that immediate help to Iraqis be given in shape of Food, Medicines and Tents etc. Agha Dilbar,s Urgent Peace Letter No.18) Subject: Collation Forces after ceasefire in Iraq must go back to their Homeland, in other case Collation Forces after conquering Iraq will Back to Their countries with fifty thousand Dead bodies (Research by Agha Dilbar 1) After horrible and dreadful bombardment of Collation Forces in Iraq the Worst sentiments of International Community can take place against Collation Forces all over the World.2) Continuous horrible and dreadful War in Iraq will cause deaths of 10-Lakes Iraqis and one laq Collation Forces in a long Gorilla War.3) Agha Dilbar advise Collation Forces they should not conquers Iraq for Iraqi Oil, in this way they can loose their Defense Power and Economy.4) Collation Forces can conquers Iraq after killing 10-Laks Iraqis, in Consequences, 100% Suicide Attacks can burst throughout the World against Collation Forces.5) Collation Forces decision to double their army in Iraq for their Victory will prove them a next Vietnam War.6) Collation Forces, keep in mind that Palestine,Labnan, Chechnya, Kashmir, Afghanistan and Iraq cannot solve with Brute Force, in this way 9/11Type Incidences can take place against Collation Forces all over the World.7) Above-mentioned international disputes, Collation Forces should solve these disputes with the help of UN Peace Force, through Friendship, Progress and Prosperity. Agha Dilbar urgent Peace Letter No.19) Subject: According the rule of Might is Right, Collation Forces Conquered Iraq and than threatened Syria, Iran and North Korea.1) Collation Forces are blaming Syria, Iran and North Korea to Collecting Weapons of Mass Destruction and Terrorism.2) Now Collation Forces have started horrible and dreadful planning to Attack Syria and than Iran for their oil Resources interest.3) UN can become helpless, if Collation Forces kept on capturing many Weak and Undeveloped Countries one by one.4) Collation Forces want to make slave all the countries of the World with The new Jungle Law. (Might is Right) 5). World Community should Convert such Collation Forces to UN Peace Force as Strongest force of the World.6) Peace Loving people of the World should solve their disputes not with Brute Force and Terrorism. They should solve their differences through Friendship Progress and Prosperity with the practical help of UN Peace Force. Agha Dilbar Urgent Peace Letter No.20) Subject: The dream of Collation Forces to enforces Law of Jungle in World through use of power/cruelty will be resisted by World Community, as People all over the World have arisen and by becoming united they will crush Collation Forces in Iraq.1) For capturing oil resources of Iraq, the Collation Forces have started Aggression and worst bombing. People all over the World should condemn It.2) The aggression and cruelty, which the Collation Forces have started In Iraq is a plan to enslave the poor and weak nations. The World Community should take practical steps to stop this in Iraq.3) Agha Dilbar advises the Collation Forces that World can be conquered through Friendship, Progress and Prosperity instead of aggression andCruelty.4) The dangerous plan of Collation Forces to dissolve UN, which they have Prepared under influence of force, barbarity and cruelty, UN should Resist It with the help of World Community.5) The Collation Forces, for capturing oil resources of Iraq have started Mass Killings of thousands of Iraqis. Iraqi soil will revenge it and The World Super Power will get humiliating defeat like Russians in Iraq.6) World Community must condemn the false propaganda of Collation Forces that they are doing it for freedom of Iraqi people.7) The Collation Forces must remember that in retaliation to state Terrorism against Philistine People, a tragic incident like suicide attack of 9/11Took place. It is possible that in revenge of aggression in,Labnan, Afghanistan and Iraq, many such like incidents may reoccur and never ending process may start. Agha Dilbar's Urgent Peace Letter No.21Subject: The Collation Forces through massive War Power trying to Enslave of Poor World. How to stop them? 1) Recently the Collation Forces have started War in the name of Iraqi Freedom its only solution is that the World Community by making a UN Peace Force the most powerful body should take immediate steps to control the Plot of Collation Forces for starting 3rd World War.2) The World Community, through powerful media, i.e. Radio, TV Internet, Newspapers, Magazines, should start media propaganda for Public Opinion building.3) The World Community through Economic Boycott of Collation Forces, should Hit their Economies through Media.4) The War Crimes of Collation Forces in Iraq should be made publicThroughMedia.5) The World Community should move to Intl Court of Justice against Collation Forces for damage to Iraq, People of Iraq and for withdrawal from Iraq.6) The Poor Countries, especially those with Oil Resources who will be First Targets of imperialist motives of Collation Forces, should start Campaign Through UN and other international Forums for their immediate Withdrawal and Establishing Democratic Govt in Iraq. Agha Dilbar's Urgent Peace Letter No.22Subject: A new plan by Agha Dilbar to curb World Terrorism, Suicidal Attacks And for permanent restoration of Peace.1) The present strategy of Collation Forces to fight against World Terrorism and for stopping of Suicidal Attacks by attacking on Poor Countries, is resulting in further 100% Terrorism.2) The sufferings people of Poor Countries, massive killings of their Innocent people, loss of proprieties and source of livings is making them Customized to Suicidal Attacks.3) This strategy of Collation Forces to attack on Poor Countries one by one In the name of curbing Terrorism, may result outbreak of 3rd World War at any time.4) The Collation Forces must remember that their continuous attacks on Poor Countries are generating Bloody Rebellions, Civil Wars and long Gorilla Wars with possibility of devastating World Economy.5) According to Agha Dilbar's Great Peace Plan, the Collation Forces And all Countries of the World should hand over their Army High Command to UN_PeaceForce.6) According to this Great Peace Plan proposed strongest UN_ Peace Force of the World should resolve International Disputes (As such Kashmir, Philistine, Chechnya. Afghanistan and Iraq etc.) Through Friendship Progress and Prosperity instead of Military Actions for curbing Terrorism and Suicidal attack. Agha Dilbar,s Urgent Peace Letter No.23Subject: Agha Dilbar s new plan "United States of the World"(USW) should Immediately adopt this Plan for Defense of Poor Nations and Welfare of Their People.1) The World Community with the help of France, Germany, Russia, Japan, China, other European, Asian, Arab, African, States should form an Institution like Nato and European Union.2) The Headquarter of this proposed Institution (USW) should be based at France , Germany or China and its Head should be elected annually through Voting of Member States.3) This Institution (USW) will take all actions including Military, Economic, Industrial, Agricultural, Commercial, Educational and Cultural under the Principles of UN.4) USW will ensure Regional Safety and Defense of its Member States.5) USW will take immediate and practical steps for assurance of SingleCurrency.6) By abolishing Travel Restrictions, USW will encourage Tourism among Member States.7) USW will encourage Free Trade by abolishing Tariffs.8) For Economic, Industrial Agricultural Commercial and Educational Development of its Poor Member States, USW will provide technology and Confessional (@1%) Long Term Loans.9) USW will establish Schools, Colleges, Universities, Hospitals, and Sports Complexes, Motor Ways, Dams, Canals and heavy Industries in its PoorMemberStates.10) USW will take measures to control Environmental Pollution in itsMemberStates.11) USW will resolve Regional Disputes of its Member States through Table Talk, Friendship, Progress, Prosperity instead of War and StateTerrorism.12) USW will take steps for reduction of Armaments and Atomic Weapons throughout the World.13) The Member States of USW will establish common banks, Airlines and Shipping Companies.14) For making Brotherhood among USW member States, Govt Level Concessions will be provided to Cultural Groups for Traveling, Hoteling and Entertainment Shows. Agha Dilbar Urgent Peace Letter No.24Subject: Collation Forces should remember that by their conquest of Poor Countries People of the World, instead of getting Peace, will become Victim of Suicide Attacks.1) By following Agha Dilbars principles of Friendship, Progress and Prosperity the World Community can establish permanent Peace in theWorld.2) Instead of relying on Supper Powers, the World Community should Hand Over, Command Forces of all countries to UN Peace Force, after making It the Mightiest War Power. In this way the UN should be the Global VillageSupperPower.3) USA, UK, Russia, India and Israel must remember that use of Indiscriminate and continues State Force in Afghanistan, Iraq, Chechnya, Kashmir and Palestine will result in 100% Increase in Terrorism instead of Curbing it.4) The Collation Forces must forgo their dream of Capturing the World Through use of Force-they should remember that in this age of I.T. when World Is becoming A Global Village, the outdated rule of "Might is Right" of Previous 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th Centuries will not successes.5) I Agha Dilbar sincerely believe that only by adopting Principles of Friendship, Progress and Prosperity the Dream of World peace will Become a Reality after 5, 10, 50,100 years.6) The Collation Forces should not be mistaken that they will become a Cause of Peace and Progress after Conquering Poor Countries one by one; Rather Suicide Attacks World Over including Collation Countries, long Gorilla Wars will destroy World Economy.7) Collation Forces also remember that controlling World Terrorism by Enslaving Poor Countries (as Afghanistan and Iraq etc) Through War Machinery, killing of thousands innocent people, destruction of cities and Villages and eliminating employment sources, a new greater series of Suicide Attacks has started which can be controlled by abandoning use of BruteForce.8) World Community, Collation Forces, UN and Head of States all over the World Powerful Media, Radio, TV, Inter Net, Newspapers, Magazines should Propagate Principles of Friendship, Progress and Prosperity for Establishing of World Peace.9) Collation Forces must remember that capturing Poor Countries one by one will start 3rd World War. Collation Forces overseas consists of 2 Million Army, Fighters, Aircrafts, Navel Ships, Airfields, Latest Destructive Armaments, Is destroying World Economy. In retaliation to this, a never-ending Chain of Suicide Attacks will start engulfing the whole World Economy, Especially in USA, Europe, Africa, Middle East, Asia and Australia.10) UN must stop This Indiscriminate Use of Force by Collation Forces of the World it will have to face a fate like its predecessor the "League ofNations".10)The Collation Forces should not forget that naked use of Military Force The World Over is 100 times destroying World Peace and Economy. For get Rid of World Terrorism and Suicidal Attacks, only Principles of Friendship, Progress and Prosperity can make this World a Haven. Agha Dilbar's Urgent Peace Letter No.25Subject: The World Community has started March towards Peace in the Light of Agha Dilbar's Principles of Friendship, Progress and Prosperity.1) It is a pleasant news that Pakistan-India are preparing for talks to resolve Kashmir Dispute.2) Israel and Philistine are going to hold talks as per President Bush's Road Map instead of War and Suicidal Attacks.3) Russia has also agreed for talks with Chechens Gorilla Fighters.4) Keeping in view these facts and for strengthens peace process in the World. Agha Dilbar Appeals to Collation Forces to gradually withdraw>From Afghanistan and Iraq and under an International Agreement, UN Peace Forces should be deployed there till Normalcy.5) India, Israel, Russia, USA and UK must remember that as per research of Agha Dilbar in present Global Village Age, Peace is not possible by Conquering Weak countries on the pretext of Weapons of Mass Destruction and by State Terrorism, Mass Killings and destruction of Means of Production, rather use of Brutal Force will increase Suicide Attacks 100 Times resulting in Failure of World Economy. Agha Dilbar's Urgent Peace Letter No.26Subject: UN Peace Force should be displaced till Restoration of Peace In Internationally Disputed Arias of Kashmir, Palestine, Chechnya, Afghanistan and Iraq.1) As per Research of Agha Dilbar for stoppage of Guerilla War in Internationally Disputed Arias like Kashmir, Palestine, Chechnya, Afghanistan and Iraq and for fully resolving other disputes. These Disputed Areas should be put under control of UN Peace Force.2) After taking control these disputed areas and bringing Army, Police and Administration under Command of UN Peace Force should resolve all Issues Through Table Talk in the light of Principles of Friendship, ProgressAndProsperity.3) UN Peace Force after taking charge of Kashmir, Palestine and Chechnya, Will order Indian, Israeli and Russian Armies to Vacate these DisputedAreas.4) Similarly it will Order Nito and collation forces to Withdraw from Afghanistan and Iraq and go back to their Homeland.5) UN Peace Force, after taking Control, will conduct Free and Fair Elections in Afghanistan and Iraq within 2-years and will Handover Govt to Winning Political Parties. However UN Peace Force will remain thereTill3-years for full Restoration of Peace.6) According to Proposed Plan of Agha Dilbar, UN Peace Force will Remain in Deployed in Kashmir, Palestine and Chechnya for 5-years after signing of Peace Agreements Disputed Parties Groups and it is expected Normalcy will Return that Period.7) It is hoped that UN Peace Force will succeed getting rid of Long Gorilla Wars and Suicide Attacks in the lights of Golden Principles of Friendship, Progress and Prosperity with the help of UN Peace Force. Agha Dilbar, s Urgent Peace letter No.27) Subject: UN Security Council, through a Resolution for permanent World Peace will Order to Reduce 75% in the Defense Budgets of all Countries.1) UN at the International Level will Order the following Solid Steps To Maintain Peace and the Removal of Poverty.2) Under UN Orders, all the Nations of the World will renounce officially in the Reduction of their Defense Budgets 75%.3) Under suggested Defense Budget Plan, all the States will Reduce 75%InTheir Armies Sea, Air War Fare in the Production and Buying of Ammunition. According to Suggested Agha Dilbar s Revolutionary Plan, all the Nations will be bound to Spend their Savings made by Reduction of 75% in their Defense Budget in the following Plans. A) According to UN Order all the States will be bound to Provide Free Medical Aid Facilities to each and every Person. B) According to UN Orders all the Govt. Will Provide Free Education Facilities to each Person in future. C) According to UN Orders all the Govt. will Provide UN Employment Allowance to each Person till the age of 60-Years.D) According to UN Order all the Govt. Will Provide Old Age Allowance To Each Person after 60-Years till Death. E). According to UN Order all the Govt. Will Provide 20-Years Soft Bank Housing Loans to each Person. F) According to UN Orders all the Govt. Will Provide @1%Interest Bank Loans for Trade, Agriculture and Industrial Projects.Agha Dilbar, s Urgent Peace Letter No.28Subject: Throughout the world, UN should install, autonomous Institutions, UN Privatize Commissions (UNPC) to remove Poverty, Unemployment andCorruption.1) To privatize all the Govt Institutions in a transparent manner, Under the following rules and regulations of Autonomous Institutions will beEstablished.2) Suggested Institutions (UNPC) in all the countries will perform their duties as autonomous bodies.3) All the Executive Employees of suggested institutions (UNPC) will be recruited on Merit from other countries.4) Suggested Institutions (UNPC) during the next 5-years shall Privatize all the Banks, Water and Power, big Industrial Projects Health, Education, Agriculture and City Corporations etc in a TransparentManner.5) Throughout the world all the countries will not Privatize their Defense. Currency and Telecommunication. And they will run under GovtControl.6) Suggested Institutions (UNPC) shall be Privatize on such terms and Conditions that they will have to carry the same Businesses. In case of Violation of Rule, UNPC will take back these Institutions without anyPayment.7) Suggested Institutions (UNPC) shall be bound to sell all the Govt And Semi-Govt Institutions through their Stock Exchange in Shares.8) To bring forth the Suggested Institutions (UNPC) Decisions shall be Taking By Voting in the UN General Assembly.9) By establishing the Suggested Institutions (UNPC) at the International Level, the Privatization of all Govt and Semi-Govt will help in Alleviating the Poverty, Unemployment and Corruption all over the world. Agha Dilbar's Urgent Peace Letter No.29Subject: According to UN Security Council Order, all countries would Allocate @ 2% of their National Budget for UN Development Fund (UNDF).1) Suggested UNDF would be used for the following Development Programmed to Eradicate Poverty and Unemployment from the Developing, Backward andPoorCountries.2) Through UNDF Dams, Canals, Railways, Motorways, Heavy Industry and Five star Hotels will be built in the Backward and Poor Countries.3) UNDF will be spent on Oil, Gas and Mineral Projects in Backward andPoorCountries.4) UNDF will be spent on Schools, Colleges, and Professional Institutes, Universities, Hospitals and Sports Complexes will be Constructed in Backward and Poor Countries.5) Under Suggested UNDF Latest agriculture Farms, Poultry Farms, Cattle Farms, Fish Farms and Export Processing Zones would be built in Backward and Poor Countries.6) Suggested UNDF would be spent on Population Planning in Backward andPoorCountries.7) Suggested UNDF would be install Airways, Banks and Shipping Companies In Backward and Poor Countries.8) Under UNDF following Basic Industries would be installed in Backward and Poor Countries.1. Steel Mills 2.Car, Bus, Truck, Tractor industries 3.Textile Industry 4. Tires, Tubes and Shoes Industry 5. Medicine Laboratories 6. Engineering Industry 7.Electronic Industry 8. Computer Industry 9.Dry Milk Industry 10. Tin Pack Fruit Industry. Agha Dilbar, s Urgent Peace Letter No.30) Subject: To abolish Kick Backs at International Level, UN Anticorruption Commission (UNAC) should be established.1) Under the UN Resolution UN Security Council would be established, UN Anticorruption Commission (UNAC).2) Suggested (UNAC) would be authorized at the International Level to Take Stern preventive measures to control the Contacts of Kick Backs.3) Suggested UNAC would be authorized to take Hand over the Kick Back Cases Of Govt Officials, Ministers, Govt Contractors and Head of States to The International Court of Justice.4) Suggested UNAC would be authorized to charge Govt and their Head of States who would be found guilty of taking Kick Backs in the big Govt Contarcts.5) Suggested High Power International Institution (UNAC) would Confiscate All the Black Money made through Un-Fair Means, and giving all such Cases of Inappropriacy to International Court of Justice, it would help in Awarding The severe punishments to all Head of States, Ministers, High Officials, Smugglers and Traders who are found guilty in Corruption.6) Through the suggested UNAC, by eradicating Kick Backs and Black Money, it Will keep to remove Poverty, Unemployment and Terrorism immediately Throughout the World. Please Note: Donate Funds for International Peace Campaign for conveying message of Peace through Friendship Progress and Prosperity by International Revolution Movement, in a better way 1000-Time more. We need Funds urgent basis. Please Send your Donations to Bank Account: Allied Bank of Pakistan, Lahore Branch: Allama Iqbal Town, Lahore No.0688Account: Agha Dilbar Account No. 01100-5809-2Agha Dilbar founder International Revolution Movement Central Secretariat64-Neelum, Allama Iqbal Town, Lahore, Pakistan Thanks for using this service Please E-mail these Peace Letters to your friends for the Welfare of Humanity Thank you for your Participation. We appreciate your Contribution for Humanity (Live with Dignity and Dye with Grace. Guide Line from Agha Dilbar)__________________Please see our Message in internet search Website No-1 aghadilbar No-2 aghadilbar2 No-3 aghadilbar3

One person asked: Putting aside questions about the existence of Jesus, in which part of the four canonical Gospels does Jesus say explicitly in his own words, "I am The Son of God"?

Good question.

I just did a quick search, and I found many Scriptures where Jesus is called the Son of God, including one where He clearly refers to Himself that way: John 10:36.

a little word from Gordon Clark on empiricists and logic:

Every statement, even if particular, depends on the law of contradiction. Truth and error are incompatible. If all marhoucals are rhinosaps, there cannot be a single marhoucal that is not a rhinosap. We do not have to inspect the infinite number of the latter in order to assure ourselves that none can be found. Given the premise, we do not need to examine even one. That O ab cannot be deduced from A ab is a necessity of logic. And if our minds are not so constructed, we can never distinguish truth from error. But empiricism furnishes no necessity, no universality, no all, no none.

Indeed, it furnishes no some either. Whether the logical form be universal or particular, the proposition must have a subject term. All dogs are vertebrates; some dogs are black. Suppose now that the subject term, dogs, had five meanings. This is not unusual for English words. Consult Merriam-Webster’s Unabridged Dictionary. Look up the words fast, curb, domestic, race, land-not to mention love, emotion, grace, religion, and virtue. Each one will have possibly four, five and sometimes six different meanings. This frequently introduces considerable ambiguity, with the result that an argument, apparently logical, is actually fallacious. The fallacy can be avoided, sometimes with a bit of trouble, by specifying meaning one, meaning two, and meaning three. But there is a deeper problem. Suppose a given word has an infinite number of meanings. The word fast would then mean every word in the dictionary from the article “a” to “zyzzogetan,” plus an unimaginable greater number. “Fast fast fast fast” would mean, “Today is last Tuesday” and “Washington discovered America in 1066.” That is to say, a word that means everything means nothing.

***** But this which is so obvious could not be deduced from any finite number of observations.*****

It is a principle which must be accepted even before the term “observation” could be given any meaning at all. Therefore the use of any single word in an intelligible sentence depends on an a priori principle. No blank mind could ever discover this principle. One could phrase the principle as “a word, to mean something, must also not mean something”; or, “if a word means everything, it means nothing.” Like the law of contradiction, it is a way of maintaining the distinction between truth and falsehood. And this distinction is the basic element in the image of God.

Alan Phillips,

Well said. And this is exactly why I, as a christian theist, am not an empiricist.

History is suspect. Archaeological digs are suspect. In short, all empiricism is suspect. Some of the most well-known names in science have admitted this.

Albert Einstein, for example, speaking of our knowledge of the universe, said: "We know nothing about it at all . . .. The real nature of things, that we shall never know, never."

The British philosopher Karl Popper wrote: "We know that our scientific theories always remain hypotheses... In science there is no knowledge, in the sense in which Plato and Aristotle understood the word, in the sense which implies finality; in science we never have sufficient reason for the belief that we have attained the truth." Popper went on to say: "It can even be shown that all [scientific] theories, including the best, have the same probability, namely zero."

Bertrand Russell said:

"All inductive arguments in the last resort reduce themselves to the following form: "If this is true, that is true: now that is true, therefore this is true." This argument is, of course, formally fallacious. Suppose I were to say: "If bread is a stone and stones are nourishing, then this bread will nourish me; now this bread does nourish me; therefore it is a stone, and stones are nourishing." If I were to advance such an argument, I should certainly be thought foolish, yet it would not be fundamentally different from the argument upon which all scientific laws are based."

And I agree! But the problem with most atheists is that they are either ignorant or too much of a coward to fully embrace the logical implications of their empiricism.

We have agnostics and atheists making claims of finality and truth...what hogwash.

If only the atheists here were more logically trained.

Well put Jason!

In fact, that naturalist claims that nature is all that there is yet they try to explain nature with logic they cannot account for with the senses. What hypocrisy. They just do not want to be accountable for their wickedness so they deny God's existence.

Veritos

Mr. Burton Wolfe,

In response to your challenge:

"I challenge you to provide any historical evidence, even the tiniest scrap of historical evidence, that Jesus or Paul or John actually existed."

The so-called New Testament would be a primary source from those who knew Jesus personally and also those who knew Jesus secondarily. This would amount to some of the best evidence available from the ancient world.

However, also Tacitus was a first century Roman historian. From his _Annals of the Caesars_, Book 15, Chapter 44:

"Hence to suppress the rumor, [Nero] falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."

Suetonius was a second century Roman historian. From his _Lives of the Twelve Caesars_, Claudius:

"Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Christ], [Claudius] expelled them from [Rome]."

Suetonius, _Annals_ 15.44

"Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief."

There are extra biblical sources that support the claim that Jesus (Yeshua) existed and many have already been mentioned in the emails above. One of the most prominent that give credibility to this claim and I'm surprise that No one has mentioned it,is the fact that his roots can be traced to his family members especially James (Jacobi)commonly knowned as the brother of the lord. Asked any Jewish rabbi or biblical scholar of the authenticity and validity of the fact that James was the first bishop of Jerusalem as recorded in Jewish history and the famous throne he sat on. Josephus goes into more indepth explanation of James bishopship and his death and also Eusebius and jewish historical books. There are written fact on James as the first leader of the jerusalem church or what we call church today and even his epistle reads as if though Jesus was writing it himself. If appears to be true that it's hard to validate the evidence written about Jesus since it was written after the fact but the same cannot be said about his brother, James the Just who grew up with him and his deeds as bishop were recorded as historical facts.

1. There is not one single contemporary record of jc's existance. The Christian New Testament was not started until decades after his supposed death. Never mind the Greek/Roman practice of authors taking on the name of their subject (Matthew, Luke, etc). For the most part the authors of the Christian Bible are unknown. All other mentions of him are in writings of ppl who were not alive when he supposedly was and for the most part refer to Christians.

2. The Christian concept of messiah does not and never has existed in Judaism. The word messiah is english for moshiach. Moshiach is a title given to any man who is properly annointed with oil and we've had many of them, kings, priests, and even warriors. There is nothing supernatural about a moshiach whatsoever.

3. The phrase 'son of HaShem' in Jewish writing and thought simply indicates that the person in question had or has a unique relationship with HaShem and in no way is linked to being a moshiach.

4. The chapters in Josephus's writings referring to jc have been fully debunked and are recognized by all serious scholars as forgeries added by a Christian monk around the year 400.

The point of the histortical Jesus is that He accomplished His task Divine or not if we accept Him as a Change Master. The problem with Divinity is not itself but that it can certainly be used as an excuse for accepting the status quo since God will return when He should. NO matter what. So why bother with changing the world for the better now. Even worse a segment of Christians believe the worse the world gets the more likely He will finally come. So pile on the grief and suffering around the entire world and hasten His return !

The fact is that if His message and teachings were and are worth following by definition THEN they are worthwhile because they make sense for Humanity whether He was physically resurrected or not.

How shallow is it if the ONLY reason to Follow His path is he had to prove He was a God and not human bringing Himself back from the dead and then levitating Himself up into Heaven. That in effect we should walk away from Him and ignore His Message if anyone ever somehow proved to us Jesus Himself was not a Supernatural God.

I've always been curious about the statement WITHOUT Christ's Resuurection and Ascention into Heaven phsically there is NO Christian religion. WHY. Because certain Church "leaders" throughout history have proclaimed that as ontologically true without having to prove the statement. Which of course they can't it being an ontology.

And the obvious question to ask these "leaders" is what if God had decided it was in His and all of humanity's best interest that He NOT present Himself as a Supernatural Being. Could He not have done that ?? WHY.

The historical Jesus offers an entirely different message which is to live to create a Paradise in the here and now for all humankind. Jesus rebelled against the Status Quo. That is undeniable. Supernatural God or not.

That to be a CHRISTian is to be fully commited to ending poverty, hunger, oppression, disease for ALL of humanity and to make the personal sacrifices necessary to do it. And to live an exemplary life as well and to do onto others as we would have them do to us. As He did.

If Jesus' message is received as a Messanic Leader rather than a Super-Human God then by definition for example a greedy hedge fund manager or CEO with endless stock options who pays himself $100 million a year using "every trick in the book" and manipulating government and tax policy to his personal advantage then spending to incredible execees buying everything in sight and then some more cannot be a Christian since he is obviously NOT a follower of Jesus' life or message.....

.....but in fact many of these individuals are the very pillars of their churches BECAUSE in their minds (and the official Church) and their priests and ministers God is about the Hereafter not the Herenow. If it is about the Here & Now they are out of Luck living lives of excess ! Because they are NOT CHRISTians. Not in any way like Jesus Christ and not living as He did. Or His disciples.

It is with the Council of Nicaea in 325AD and Christianity being proclaimed the official state religion and the emperor the symbol of excess as the embodiment of Christ that Christianity became obsessed with the Supernatural and the AFTERlife and the kind of worship exemplified by the other Roman "gods." The "perfect" religion for trying to maintain the Status Quo the emporer represented. The emperor will be rewarded now the Christians in the NEXT life in Heaven with God. Think Jesus of Nazareth would have bought into that convoluted interpretation of His Life. And Teachings.

And the form of Christianity (sic) still most practiced today around the world and most of all in the USA. And as for the statement Render onto Caesar what is Caesar's. And to God what is God's. Is a statement with a very different answer than the conventional interpretation today. The Early Christians who really knew Jesus and His Message knew the real answer.

Suspending my judgement on the affirmation that there are numerous historical proofs of the existence of Jesus and that he said more or less what is written in the Godspels, I have the following question: in which part of the four canonical godspels does Jesus says explicitly in his own words 'I am The Son of God'? If he calls God 'father', He also says that God is our common father to all humans, as is reaffirmed in the 'our father' prayer. The only particular expression he uses for speaking of himself is 'the son of the man', which some scholars have tried to explain as being an indirect way to speak of himself as the son of God ('son of man' being sometimes abusively translated in some Bible as 'son of God'), the argumentation being quite cumbersome on that point. Also, does Paul anywere refer to the historical Jesus in his letters?

Thank you, Alan Phillips. It is disturbing to me that people demand more of a standard of proof for the existence of Jesus than they do for other historical figures. I suppose to acknowledge his existence opens up a line of debate that many do not wish to have, or maybe they think they can keep 2.3 billion people quiet by refusing to accept that Jesus of Nazareth ever walked on this planet.

I have read "The Case for Christ" and learned a lot from it. The author was an atheist when he began his investigation, but I suppose those who convert are viewed with greater contempt by non-believers than those formerly of faith who come to their senses and join the side of "reason."

I've stopped by this board on a number of occasions hoping to see the civility of discourse that it purports to promote, but I've not observed it yet. I would love to know if the people at the Post are pleased with what they have unleashed here. I tell myself to bypass this blog, but I guess it's like a car wreck - I can't avert my eyes from it. Does anyone read the comments here and come away feeling more respectful of one another? I wonder if it's even possible today for people to have civil and respectful dialogue on any topic.

certainly brings out the Christ haters and deniers. they especially like to spout off around Christmas. Merry Christmas to All.

Only the Holy Ghost knows for sure. Call Ghost Busters before these looney tunes start some more killing.

If Jesus didn't exist, why can't we just let it be?

If Jesus did exist, why can't we just believe?

Could it be, Jesus compels & confounds us to this very day? If so, have we considered why that is?

When faced with a terminal situation, does your salvation depend on whom you had believed in or does it depend on an overall or absolute truth irrespective of your belief? The following experiences may teach us a thing or two. Note!!

Dr. Nasir Sidiki was on the national TV (TBN) on 04/15/05 to give his testimony and that of his blood brother Asif.[If you wish to get in touch with him, just google his name and you'd get all you want.] Read on!

Dr. Sidiki's Personal Experience (Delivered from Death and Sickness)

Dr. Sidiki: I was a Muslim and from a very prominent family. I had a virus called shingles. Shingles is like the nerves burning the skin from the inside out. You feel like somebody puts gasoline and strikes a match on you. I had blisters one inch in size. In that condition, I also developed chicken pox (Showing a picture that was taken when he laid on the bed in the hospital with his right side full of big red blisters). I had a temperature of 107.6 degrees. You could fry an egg on me. 104 degrees is considered serious, and 108 is death. I was 0.4 degrees away from death!

In that condition the doctors called my wife out of the room and said if I make it through the morning, the right side of my body (having the boils and blisters) will be paralyzed, I will lose my eyesight and my hearing, and there was also brain damage because of hyperthermia-the high temperature. They said if I survive, I'd simply be a garbage-the chances are that I'd be dead by the morning. In that condition, I was abandoned to die on the 8th floor of the Toronto General Hospital.

In that desperation, I cried out that night! I come from a prominent Muslim family. I cried out in desperation for Allah to save me. I come here to testify that it was Jesus who walked into the room instead and healed me that night. Mohammed did not come, neither did Allah. As real as I am to you, Jesus was standing at the end of the bed and He said just two things to me: "I Am the God of the Christians. I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." That's all He said.

The next morning, the same doctors who left me to die walked in, they said the shingles have gone into remission; the boils and blisters are not growing anymore. It became a case study in the Toronto General Hospital! I also became curious about this Jesus.

When I was discharged, one day in my living room I was flipping through the channels and I stumbled on TBN (The Trinity Broadcasting Network) channel, and a man of God was preaching the Gospel. He requested people to give their lives to Jesus Christ and become Born Again. Having had this experience, I was now convinced and in my living room I also gave my life to Jesus Christ. I got a Bible secretly from one Christian Arab and started to study it as the man of God had said.

When my father realized that I had become a Christian, he became so bitter and disowned me immediately. He said I'm no more his son, nor the son of his wife! And that I'm no more a child of that family. My life was in total threat as its usually the case when a Muslim becomes a Christian. Through the help of some christian brothers, I flew to the US. I attended a Bible seminary, and today I'm a Born Again Arab preacher, testifying to the world that the reason I'm alive today is because of Jesus, the only Savior of the world!

Asif's Testimony (An Ultimate Experience)

(Recounted by his brother, Dr. Nasir Sidiki)

Dr. Sidiki cont'd: On December 27th 1996 at Tulsa Oklahoma where I reside until date (2005), I got a phone call from my natural sister in London England saying that our natural brother Asif was admitted in the Westminster Hospital, in a respirator, and in a deadly condition and there was nothing they could do to help him out. So they were about to pull out the respirator and left him to die. He was a Muslim too. I cried out saying don't do that, don't let him die; I'm going to take the next flight to London.

The next day I arrived in the Gatwith (sp?) Airport and I was picked up by my sister and taken to the hospital where I met my brother in the intensive care unit. You could barely tell if he was still alive; just a skeleton with wires all over and in a respirator. Only his heart monitor could prove that he was still alive, but it indicated that he was in a comma. I met with Dr. Richard Litch (sp?) who said Asif had acute Pacreatitis on Nov. 17th. They could not carry out surgery because of the pain. So they gave him Morphine. It didn't get rid of the pain. So they gave more Morphine; and more Morphine. And finally the Morphine was so much that his chest went off! I said what does that mean? Dr. Litch responded he died; his heart stopped. And in their attempt to resuscitate him, he instead started to bring up into his lungs; Adult respiratory distress syndrome. Now his lungs are clogged up. Finally, they gave up, put a sheet over him, took him to the elevator and down to the morgue in the basement. Then I said but I just saw him in the intensive care unit. Dr. Litch said we cannot explain why we brought him back, but there is no hope for him. They were about to give up finally. I started to pray for my brother. The Bible says "believers shall lay hands on the sick, and the sick shall recover." I declared that my brother will not die and go to Hell, but he must come back to life and serve the Lord Jesus Christ.

The doctor called me aside and said they cannot keep him in the respirator anymore, they have to take him off. I said you can't let him die. He said there's only one option then, that they'd drive a tube into his lungs through his voice box to keep him breathing. And he said but if they do that, Asif would not be able to speak again! I said you can't do that. He said they were already two days overdue, and they must do that tonight. The next day I came back and asked if they carried out the operation, the doctor said no they didn't because he did a little bit of breathing on his own, but that there's nothing yet to be excited about. I knew immediately that the Holy Spirit was at work. The next day again I went back to the hospital and Asif's bed in the intensive care unit was empty. I was told they moved him to the 3rd floor in the Victoria Hall section. I went to the nursing station there and the nurse said he's in one of the rooms sleeping. I said sleeping!! One nurse said they'll wake him up for me. I said wake him up? But he was in a comma just yesterday. She said oh no, he was up and about this morning I said Halleluiah!!

We went into the room. As they woke him. The first thing that he said to me was, Nasir, I died.

Nasir: "I know that you died. The reports say so. The doctors confirmed it that you died. But how do you know you died?"

Asif: "Because I woke up and looked down and I could see my own body on the stretcher. I saw one doctor on each side trying to revive my heart. I saw when I brought up into my lungs. I saw as they gave up at that point. I saw as they covered me with a sheet. And they wheeled it into the elevator and took it down. I saw them as they put it into the morgue."

Dr. Nasir: "You saw all of that?"

Asif: Yes!

Dr. Nasir: "What happened next?"

Asif: "Then I found myself in a very deep hole." (With a frightened countenance.) I was falling continuously. There were very horrible creatures all around me. I didn't know what was happening. Then suddenly I looked up and I saw a crucifix."

Dr. Nasir: "What do you mean by a crucifix?"

Asif: "The one that Jesus was on."

Dr. Nasir: "You saw Jesus on the cross?"

Asif: "No! No! I saw myself on the cross. I was so horrible. My face was deformed. That was the ugliest thing I've ever seen in my life! It was so bad.

Dr. Nasir: "So what happened?"

Asif: "Then I cried out!" As I cried out, the Lord brought me back. But Nasir, what does this mean? I do not understand."

Dr. Nasir: "My brother, you deserve to be on that cross."

Asif: (Covering his face.) "I don't even want to think about that. It was so horrible.

Dr. Nasir: "My brother, 'The wages of sin is death.' We all deserve to be on that cross."

Asif: "I don't ever want to go back to that cross."

Dr. Nasir: "There's only one way for non of us to go back to that cross. If we will accept Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord who went to that cross for your sins and my sins."

Dr. Nasir cont'd: And in sorrow and tears, my brother gave his life to the Lord Jesus Christ and became a Born Again. Within three days he was in the rehabilitation already on his way out. Today, he's alive and well. He's saved, healed and delivered."

END!!

"Since none of that is acceptable to non-believers, they should be asked what, if anything, is believeable."

Well, there are varying levels of evidence -- as one would reasonably expect. There is a pretty strong indication as to the existence of some of the Egyptian leaders [as evidenced by pyramids and mummified remains]. Likewise, artifacts play a significant role in establishing existence of behavior of numerous leaders [from Mayan and Incan to Chinese and Japanese]. The importance of such evidence has not been lost on the Christian faith, hence some of the initial Christian crusades to identify 'holy locations' and preserve these.

With respect to Jesus himself, strong evidence would include non-Christian official records consistent with Biblical accounts [such as the census which according to the Bible caused Mary and Joseph to travel to Bethlehem] -- it is fairly clear that there are no such records which certainly brings at least that portion of the Biblical account into question.

Given biblical inconsistencies and lack of supporting evidence, it is certainly reasonable to question the existence of Jesus -- though as many of indicated, it appears that the most reasonable assessment is that someone of that name existed and preached during that time -- and the lack of Biblical consistency is due to the natural exaggeration associated with accounts of the supernatural.

Dear Mr. Wolfe and all who doubt Jesus:

Can you read Classical Greek? If not, I suggest you use the link I will provide.

Some of the best evidence we have for Jesus life was written by Josephus Flavius, a Jew who lived from 37 CE to 100 CE. His historical book, Jewish Antiquities, has several passages that describe Jesus as the Christ. You can find them in Book 18:63-64 and Book 20:200. Google them if you like.

This is only one of many proofs we have that Jesus really lived.

Here is the link:

http://pace.cns.yorku.ca/York/york/showText?book=18&chapter=6&textChunk=nieseSection&chunkId=63&text=anti&version=whiston&direction=&tab=&layout=split&go.x=17&go.y=5

Tom Whelan wrote:
"Our Creator is a being of light, ie. of energy. As such our creator cannot experience his creation."

Where do you get this from? Certainly not the Bible - in the Bible, God says "Let there be light", implying that he created it. He can't experience his creation? But you said he was omnipotent, so how is anything, including experiencing his creation, beyond his powers? And since when does light/energy have thoughts and intentions? How can it even "think" about experiencing something?

It's amazing reading these posts - so many of you religious people seem to be flying by the seat of your pants - making it all up out of whole cloth as you go along. Incredible.

Mr. Wolfe, whatever it is that you believe in, at some point, also has to take a leap of faith. In fact, it takes faith to believe that Christ does not exist. You are appear to be a proud person who does not have true inner peace. Lighten up, life is short, you are blessed with intelligence but your wisdom is lacking. You have likely hurt those who love you at some point. It is obvious by your brash arrogance, which pervades every other area of one's life.

When it comes to supporting the historic accuracy of Jesus, or any other historical character, I am struck by the lack of consistency by historians. What, exactly, is the historical proof for Socrates? Or Buddha? or Krishna? or Moses? or Abraham? Or Ulysses? Or Homer? For these and most other ancients, there is no objective evidence for the existence of any of them. All of them have had their existence affirmed, not by objective evidence, but by the testimony of their followers. It is true that no historian believes in first person testimonies? If so, than how much of our history will have to be thrown out? Nearly all of it, I believe.

First person testimony, in most cases, is all we have to describe the existence of nearly every historical figure, especially ancient ones. The Biblical testimony, in the New Testament, is first person testimony for the events in the life of Jesus. Because the sayings of Jesus are found in the Gospels of Mark, Luke, John and Thomas, they suggest that these first person accounts were written down and distributed between 30 to 50 AD. Then we had the letters of the apostles, the gospels, the rituals, the historical testimony of the church and the various testimonies of those who have had some kind of religious experience.

Since none of that is acceptable to non-believers, they should be asked what, if anything, is believeable. If they answer that only empirical, scientific evidence is reliable, then they have to explain how they reconcile that with the uncertainties inherent in scientific proof. When first person testimony is arbitrarily dismissed, it becomes impossible to pass along any knowledge of culture, family, tradition or history. This is the beginning of a new Dark Age.

Crystal wrote:
"I feel a great sadness for each of you who do not beleive in Jesus Christ and his purpose for coming to mankind."

Know what, Crystal? We feel just as sorry for you.

Religious people often bring up Pascal's wager (usually without knowing it): What have I got to lose by believing, even if it's not true; when if it is true, I have so much to lose by not believing?

But you do lose by believing. I have a friend who follows the dietary laws from Leviticus - she won't eat seafood, or pork. When she eats beef or lamb, she has it cooked so completely well done that there's not a hint of pink (because the Bible says not to eat any blood). Imagine going through life with never a taste of lobster thermidor, or shrimp scampi, or a good juicy steak, or a BLT! Not for me, thanks.

Another aquaintance goes to church every day. EVERY DAY! What a colossal waste of time! The only time you're ever going to have. And of course he tithes.

These people won't watch nature documentaries, or visit a museum of Natural History, because this might be the devil tempting them from their faith!
How intellectually stifling! What a loss to miss the fascinating things the natural world has to teach!

You keep your (maybe) eternity - I'll take what I know for sure I've got right here and now.

"No, that is what I am asking for naturalists to prove...what proof do you have to offer that we come to understand things based on our senses?"

Just so that I understand what we have established and what we haven't -- are you ok on the classical Descartes argument that as one capable of asking the question of existence I have demonstrated sufficiently the existence of 'self'?

If so, as a 'self' capable of asking the question, I also have the capability to receive external stimuli. The nature and accuracy of this stimuli is certainly open to question, but the existence of this stimuli after the acceptance of the existence of 'self' appears to follow. [I agree that I am still not to the point where I am proving that we can 'understand based on our senses' as you request -- and we will certainly need to better define 'understand' -- but again, am just trying to get to a common base.

There is overwhelming evidence to support the entire Bible, including passages that refer to Jesus Christ.

A book I would highly recommend is "Signature of God," by Grant R. Jeffrey. He has done a great deal of research on the Bible and has uncovered all kinds of evidence for you to carefully consider, much more than what I could summarize here.

By the way, for full disclosure purposes, I am a Christian, but I have no personal interest in promoting Mr. Jeffrey's book, other than to recommend a good reference for people who are struggling with important spiritual questions.

The question of who Jesus Christ is and whether He truly existed and accomplished what is recorded in the Bible is a most critical question, one that we all have to answer for ourselves.

Burton H Wolfe:
just checked out your website. Looks very similar to many conspiracy theory websites I read for a good laugh. And anyone who repeatedly uses the word "irrefutable" in a description of their "evidence" is quite suspect in my mind. I'm now certain you are just trying to sell more of your "e-books".

There is not enough room on this page to present to you the evidence for the existence of God and of His son Jesus. It was recommended in an earlier post for you to read Lee Strobel's A Case for Christ. It is an excellent and objective look at the historical evidence of Christ as the Messiah. Go get it; read it and THEN respond. Until then, save your crazy rants for your website.

With all due respect, how can anyone believe anything in a book that starts out with Genesis?

I cannot compete with the obviously well educated previous replies but here goes my attempt.
I feel a great sadness for each of you who do not beleive in Jesus Christ and his purpose for coming to mankind. Some of you say you beleive in the Bible, but then you discount God's Word to you through the life and witness of Jesus Christ himself.
I can tell you from experience that you will never find the peace and purpose for your life that you are searching for until the truth of the Bible is disclosed to your heart and mind personally.
God promises that if you search with all your heart you will find the answers. His Word is true.
Eternal life is just for the asking.
Blessings to everyone.

This has got to be the most lackluster piece in support of Christian theology I've read in a long time. I mean, you could have been discussing balancing your checking account.

anony said,

"Now, this 'self' is capable of perceiving based on a number of natural senses."

No, that is what I am asking for naturalists to prove...what proof do you have to offer that we come to understand things based on our senses?

To everybody viewing this web site:
    The Wikkipedia Encyclopedia is not a reliable source of information. Anybody can write an article, and many contributors are posting egregious errors that go uncorrected.
    I have not yet read the article about the "historicity of Jesus." I will get to it. Meanwhile, I will tell all of you that there is no "historicity" of the "Jesus" you are talking about (Joshua the messiah). I have proved he is a fiction. Until you have read my book, you have no right to say I have not proved it, I do not know what I am talking about, etc. etc. etc., yada yada yada.
    In my book I demonstrate that no matter what version of Josephus's history you refer to - and none of them can be authenticated - that First-Century historian did not mention the "Jesus" called "christ" that is at the heart of the New Testament scriptures. Josephus mentioned several dozen of the most prominent "Jesuses" (Joshuas) of the First Century and provided considerable details about them. Not one of those "Jesuses" is the "Jesus Christ" of New Testament fame. There is no mention of that "Jesus" by Josephus. A Catholic forgerer dumped a counterfeit reference or two references into a bogus Slavic edition of Josephus and off went the hoax from then on. All bonafide scholars, including a few honest Catholic scholars, have identified the purported mentions by Josephus of the New Testament "Jesus" as forgeries.
    I continue to challenge the On Faith panelists and any of the uninformed persons posting their nonsense on this web site to provide any evidence that the major "Jesus" of the New Testament, the one called "christ" (messiah), actually existed. And I am telling all of you that it cannot be done. I have researched this subject for decades. There is not a scrap of evidence, not the tiniest scrap of evidence, to support belief in the major "Jesus" (out of four distinct characters named "Jesus" in the English-language New Testament) as someone who actually existed. As I have proved in my book, beyond all possible dispute, the "Jesus Christ" upon whose existence all of "Christianity" exists was and remains nothing more than an invention of ancient Hebrew scribes who took stories of prior "messiahs" and rewrote them: "old wine in new bottles," as the brilliant former Catholic priest turned university academician, Andre Dupont-Sommer, put it.

"When was the last time you saw a woman give birth without being inseminated by a man? You make it sound as though women create babies without men."

Actually, it's now possible to take the DNA from one egg, and insert it into another egg, making it possible for two women to have a child together - no men involved.

Andy M said:

*Why is GOD male? God according to religion is a spirit. Since when does an entity have a sexual nature. Why isn't God a woman? In our world who gives life? When was the last time a man gave birth? If God gives life wouldn't he be a woman?*

So you make the valid point that a spirit would not have a sex, and then contradict yourself by insisting that a spririt should be a female? How ridiculous. You sound like famous self-loathing male Michael Moore.

When was the last time you saw a woman give birth without being inseminated by a man? You make it sound as though women create babies without men.

Jason Bradfield said
"(i would actually prefer 'minds' because i don't believe we think with our brains)"

This may well be true in his case. But let's test it - let's remove Jason's cerebral cortex and see how well he thinks.

While we're looking at the meaning of words let's examine one more, EVIL. What does that word mean? Does it mean the opposite of GOOD? NO!!!!! The opposite of GOOD is BAD. What is the opposite of EVIL? How about HOLY?

EVIL - has a body
HOLY - has no body

Usage - The boys are always looking for EVIL girls because they don't like HOLY ones. Men don't like HOLY women because they have not bodies at all.

EVIL SPIRITS must have bodies. Australian beer is EVIL while American beer is HOLY, (no body) according to Paul Hogan of Crockadile Dundee fame.

HOLY SPIRITS cannot be seen while EVIL ones can be seen. HOLY SPIRITS come from the mind, thoughts. EVIL SPIRITS cause people to think bad things. Thus EVIL is misunderstood to mean bad. Not bad but MAY cause bad thoughts.

SPIRITS - Information that can be either good or bad and must always be one or the other else it does not inform. Bearers of bad news shall be executed, have head chopped off. Is that EVIL?

"Ashlye, I'm willing to bet that your naturalistic worldview cannot account for one of the most basic questions we have - how do we come to know anything at all?"

Others have historically addressed this as follows:

What do I know? Well, starting at the basics I know that I am asking this question. That is, I know that there is something I will call 'self' that is capable of thinking of this question. Thus, if there if this 'self' that is asking this question, then this 'self' must in fact exist.

Cogito Ergo Sum.

Now, this 'self' is capable of perceiving based on a number of natural senses. While we cannot assume that these sense are inherently accurate, we can develop a model of existence and apply the input from these senses in an attempt to establish consistency.

The refinement of this model is left as an exercise for all of us readers...

The above post was by "have faith" and addressed to "E Favorite"

Want to see some writings about the existence of Jesus Christ? Try http://www.hoax-buster.org

Depends on the meaning of words. Christ means savior, one capable of getting others past the demom that blocks the path from here to heaven. Jesus is one of millions of them, taking history as a whole. The Jesus of the Bible was baptized which tells us he was special. Baptisim was a requirement because he was not the firstborn son of Pharaoh.

So the thing that one needs to get straight is why Jesus had to be baptized. Do you recall a story in the Bible about a "firstborn son" getting eliminated by an angel of God? When the firstborn son is the crown prince that's a thing better known as "making room at the top." All but the firstborn son of God have original sin. The evidence says the word Pharaoh and God are the same words in two different languages.

The ignorance is defening. Do Egyptologists read hieroglyphics? But of course they do. Do they comprehend what they read? Is there a more inportant word than God? Why can't they seem to read it? The pope won't let them? Why not? Have anything to do with the kingdom of God? Who runs the kingdom for dead and/or invisible kings?

And they say Constantine was converted. They don't know the difference between converters and convertees.

To NT Wright:

You say, "First, there is overwhelming historical evidence that Jesus of Nazareth really existed and did more or less what it says in the Gospels (which the church has often misread, by the way). I have written on this at length elsewhere."

"Overwhelming evidence that Jesus of Nazareth really existed" is a strong assertion, but it's only an assertion. Please tell us where we can find your extensive writings about this evidence.

Also, what do you mean ..."did 'more or less' what it says in the Gospels"? This sounds equivocal.

Thanks for considering these questions.

Jake has faith. Mikey likies it. Two testimonials is good enough for those of faith. I believe it. Like I said, I believe it. Believe what?

Josephus - the great Jewish fiction writer. I believe! Believe me!! Like I said, I believe!!!

Christianity has it stoutest roots in opposition to the Roman empire. That continues today in it's proudest tradition, in opposition to all governments on earth as it continues to stump for the establishment of "the kingdom of God" right here on earth.

Can anything of substance in the Bile be found in asia minor. Hasn't been so far. All those great kings of Israel are nowhere to be found. They have a lot in common with God, nowhere to be found yet are more represented than any people, place or thing ever. And the great minds continue to search.

Have faith for faith moves mountains. Exactly what kind of mountains faith moves is disputed. Could they be mountains of lies told by those who would extablish a kingdom for an invisible king? What was early Christianity all about? Perhaps one should ask a very simple question for therein lies the answer. Who will run the kingdom of God? When we answer that question we will have answered all questions posed at this blog.

Have faith. Believe me. It's all about morality. And never forget. Lies that cause people to have faith are moral. All three great faits are moral are they not? When the subject can't be dominated then change the subject.

"Desire cannot be destroyed, only dominated."

it is so clear that one responder has a LARGE ego, is arrogant, self-absorbed [only person to list his own site to read his own treatis] or a "true navel gazer", very defensive, loose tongued, non-"ist" who in the very next sentence says he is an "ist" [he is a liar by his own admission] -- uses words w/ such carelessness that i would NOT dare to read it or ask anyone to read it -- AND he does not personally know Mr. Wright well enough, i gather, to call him by his first name -- there, i have clearly identified you, your obvious character, and site w/out having to give any details, but the readers know who you are [why would i give you any more press than you have sought/claimed for yourself??].

Norrie Hoyt:

anyone who studies history around the period of your orginal question asked, will quickly discover many outside sources BEYOND the Holy Bible itself to help verify the Scriptures. You can read Josephus' [a Jew, non-Christian], who is a now world-acclaimed historian, accounts of the events of the era.

You can also read Pliny, another non-Christian historian of now world-acclaimed status, who writes of the events of the day.

Then there are the goverment officials of Rome, be they Senators, Governors, or other officials out in the hinterlands and close to local events and activities, who were charged with writing things down for the Emperior [clearly a non-Jew, a non-Christian, a persecutor of Christians] and these government documents can also be read for your outside evidence of what Christ Jesus did.

AND, more importantly, these outside sources prove some of the events written in the Bible are true -- so, you can deduce that many other items beyond those that are collaborated, are also true.

after reading these accounts, reading all of the Holy Bible, it simply comes down to your belief that it is all true. AND, do not be too concerned over four [4] non-historian men writing down events -- in ANY culture if you asked four [4] non-historian people to write down the same history, you will find differences in how they tell the story -- especially if these four [4] people came from different backgrounds, different educations, and wrote to different audiences and for different reasons.

Faith comes from hearing, and hearing comes from the Word of GOD !!

Jason B. I don't believe you exist. You are but an illusion like all others, the entire universe even. Life is virtual reality and I am the only one alive.

In virtual reality I can deduce certain things. Gravity is one of the basics. God cannot be deduced for there is no physical manisfestation of God. Does that mean there is no God? No, of course not. It means I have no way of knowing. That's not no way of knowing for sure but rather just no way of knowing - for sure does not count in virtual reality for there is no reality only perceived reality.

What kind of person takes money, things of value from other people claiming there is reality, that God is real, that God makes demands, more of course too lengthy to list and that God is represented by people, vicars - attorneys in fact that have power granted by God? CONFICENCE MEN.

http://www.hoax-buster.org The Bible, the source of God for all three great faiths is a PROVED HOAX by the standard for proving literary hoaxes. There is no faith in God. All faith is in God's vicars that use a hoax so people will have confidence in them.

Mr Burton, sir. You're too polite. Theya are not teaching garbage, it's lies. Why do they teach lies? http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul tells us why. Those who lead the most to hell will receive the greatest reward right here on earth.

Jesus was based upon the female would be Pharaoh Amenophis IV, the Amen of Revelation. No Jew had anything to do with it except the Inquisitions, holocost and so on.

Religion is a criminal activity, the conficence scam. That's why it's unlawful in China and not because the Chinese people including their leaders do not believe in, have faith in God.

Ashlye,

On gravity:

1. What proof do you have to offer that I will fall to the ground if i jump off a building?

I have spoken with a couple of agnostics trained in logic who understand the problem with induction.

He would say it is "probable" and this is consistent thinking, but not certain...as you seem to suggest.

2. When someone does fall to the ground, this by no means proves that there is some 'natural law' of 'gravity' at work. How do you deduce from an apple falling to the ground that there is some natural law at work that implies that all future apples will fall to the ground?

Lastly, on Josephus - I'll ask you the same thing I did to Burton. I would agree with you that Josephus doesn't 'prove' the Jesus of the Bible.

But again, I'm not an empiricist as Wright and the vast majority of Christians are..."Forget about discussions of Messiah, resurrection, and atonement for a second...what i would like is for you to explain to me how i can know anything...how does this work?"

Ashlye, I'm willing to bet that your naturalistic worldview cannot account for one of the most basic questions we have - how do we come to know anything at all?

Fiver says,

"Sure the Evangelical Bible in inerrant truth; yet why is it that no fundamentalists ever follow it. How's that kosher diet coming? Still practicing up on those burnt offerings? Or does your belief in your own infallibility excuse you from such technicalities?"

Fiver, if you were a theologian, you would understand that the Bible itself speaks of time when "burnt offerings" will cease. The Bible is very explicit on this. And not just the New Testament, but the Old as well.

How about leaving theology to the theologians...

Thanks, Tom, for those articulate comments. I have a constructive suggestion, which I posted as a comment to my own posting, suggesting that "son of God" has a different meaning in the Jewish community before Jesus.

Jesus is a manifestation of our Creator. Our Creator is a being of light, ie. of energy. As such our creator cannot experience his creation. That is our purpose. We were created to enable the creator to experience the cosmos and what it means to exist on this physical plane. As a reward we will eventually evolve into "angels", beings of light that can communicate directly with the Creator. Until then that part of of the creator, that energy that is a part of us allows God to experience what we experience; hence 'omniscience' and 'omnipresence'. As a being of pure energy the creator is 'omnipotent'. There will be many who doubt our evolving as that term has become a source of conflict. However I ask that you note that a reconstructed ape, gorilla or anything else from 200,000 years ago is the same as today. Reconstructions of the first homo sapiens are quite different from us. We evolve mentally, emotionally and spiritually as well. Reflect for a minute on the number of charitable organizations in the world today versus 200 years ago. Our forefathers would have thought us insane to aid our former enemies to rebuild as we did after WW11. I applaud your blog as it might help to lessen the religous friction present in our nation and our world. Well that may be asking too much but it can't hurt. Tom Whelan

Veritos:

We have evidence that gravity exists. Try jumping off a roof sometime. We have no evidence of any gods.

Anonymous:

You recommended "To all who doubt that Jesus is who He said He was,I challenge you to have a seat in your home and tell Him just that.I guarantee He will answer you..."

I just did this. There was no response. Since your guarantee was worthless, perhaps you should reconsider your beliefs.

Interested Person:

You fail to mention that nearly every biblical scholar considers the apparent Josephus references to Jesus to be unrelated the biblical Jesus. The first reference is considered to be about another individual, and the second is almost certainly a Christian forgery made centuries later. It is important to remember that Christians have engaged in lying, forgery, and fabrication to support their beliefs for millenia. Deceit is at the heart of Christianity. This continues today with fundamentalist schools teaching children outright lies about the natural world and history.

In general, I would say religious individuals such as Nicholas Wright are inherently untrustworthy when speaking on matters of science and history. Their religious presuppositions make objective examination of the evidence impossible, and their preoccupation with the afterlife justifies deceit in this one.

Veritos,

Excellent choice in pseudonym. Someone who claims truth and uses a Roman appointed prophet to back it up. Have you even bothered to consider that your BEST case scenario is that you are preaching a fraud.? If even one iota of what you claim to believe is true, your hypocrisy will not so easily be hidden from the Almighty. Sure the Evangelical Bible in inerrant truth; yet why is it that no fundamentalists ever follow it. How's that kosher diet coming? Still practicing up on those burnt offerings? Or does your belief in your own infallibility excuse you from such technicalities?

"When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites.... But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret." Matthew 6:5-6

What is it the the arrogant inherit?

Hey Realist,

Does that mean that gravity does not exist? Nice try, it sounds like you are comfortable with your unbelief. You will face God's judgment because He is clearly revealed to you. See Romans 1:18-32

Veritos

Dear Burton Wolfe,

You have proved nothing. Just because you claim you have indisputable proof does not make it so. Sounds like you are a legend in your own mind.

Veritos

"Who was Jesus?" seems to be the question that dominated the minds of those who belonged to the diverse movements who attributed their existence to him. For some he was just a man, while to others he was the only God -- for the rest he was something between those positions. Interestingly, it seems that they would have all called themselves "Christians." It was probably the political support of Emperor Constantine, much more than theological purity that determined what would become the "orthodox" answer to the question.

Karen,

Thank you for your kind words. And for the reference to Lee Strobel's book. I hope it will answer my questions about the historical Jesus. I understand that you're not trying to convince me of anything. I'm neutrally interested in the topic. Whether Jesus was divine, if he did exist, is of course a separate question. Though if Jesus did not exist as a man, then organized Christianity would seem to have a problem!

Best wishes.

While I do see the Bible as an historical document, its scholastic reliability is affected by modern standards applied to primary records. Still, I think that most people are missing the point here. Religious belief is more a matter of faith than it is reliance upon empirical substantiation. Any fool can believe in mathematics because there is only ONE correct answer. Religion is complex by its nature, and its presence among a body of people is what helps to classify them as “civilized.” Nevertheless, I think people tend to forget that the most important role of biblical accounts, and this is certainly true about stories about the life and death of Jesus of Nazareth, is that they provide guidance about how we should be living our lives. Simply, we will find more joy in our life if we treated others as we ourselves wish to be treated. Kindness is better than cruelty, decency is preferred to decadence, and we should avoid social calamities such as murder, rape, lying, cheating, adultery, and so forth. This is not exactly rocket science, but I think that social structures fall apart without a perpetuated belief in God – and the evidence of this is what is happening in our country even now. Life doesn’t have to be hard. There is an easier way. All we have to do is put our faith in it.

Norrie Hoyt
I appreciate the respectful and sincere tone of your posts. As Interested Person pointed out, there are historical references to Jesus and the New Testament should not be discounted as a historical source because they were written too close to the original events to take the shape of mythology.
Having said that, if you are interested in looking for the historical Jesus, I would highly recommend the book The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel, a former legal journalist and editor for the Chicago Tribune. I am not in anyway recommending this book to "convice" or "convert" you but because it lays out in a very readable form the documents and evidence available regarding the historical Jesus. You can make up your own mind after reading the book whether there is enough evidence that Jesus really did exist.
Andy, plenty of us christians or believers say I don't know. Having faith does not mean we don't struggle to understand the world or God's will. We have certainty about the fundamentals of our faith but realize that there is still much about God that we do not understand.

Burton,

Thanks for answering. However, what I am waiting to see is when will men like yourself and others stop going around in circles with Christian empiricists? The fact is, Mr Burton, that there are a number of Christians who HAVE got in their "feeble brains" (i would actually prefer 'minds' because i don't believe we think with our brains) that you cannot empirically prove the existence of God.

I'm with you on that one. However, this doesn't get you off the hook. I'm wanting to take it a step further.

Mr Burton, how do you come to know ANYTHING at all?

Forget about discussions of Messiah, resurrection, and atonement for a second...what i would like is for you to explain to me how i can know anything...how does this work?

Gordon Clark, a philosopher and theologian from the past century, explored these questions and is light years ahead of the so-called 'scientists'.

http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=84

Interested Person,

Thank you very much for your response. It's interesting and helpful to me. I especially appreciate the detail you provided.

Andy Mercado,

I appreciate your post. However it seems not to provide evidence of the existence of Jesus the man. Nevertheless, thanks for posting.

To Norrie Hoyt:

Wikipedia has an article entitled "Historicity of Jesus." You can find it at: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus. Skip down to the section "Greco-Roman Sources," and you will find a list of ancient writers who refer to either Jesus or his followers.

The most important of these is the Jewish historian Josephus who mentions Jesus twice in a text written in about AD 93. Josephus understands Jesus to be one of the many colorful historical persons who populated Jewish society in the generation that preceded him.

One caution about the Wikipedia article. In an attempt to be fair to everyone, it mentions modern writers who have argued that Jesus was a complete fabrication. However, within the guild of contemporary New Testament scholars--scholars that include both Christian believers and non-religious historians--you would be hard pressed to find anyone who doubts that Jesus existed. Scholars argue over whether Jesus said all the things the New Testament records that he said and over whether he did all the things, etc. But it would be difficult to locate a New Testament scholar (i.e., one who is engaged in university teaching and publishes in academic, peer-reviewed journals) who discounts the historicity of the man Jesus. I know this from personal experience doing graduate research in Bible at a secular university.

It is unfortunate that some participants in On Faith have discounted the New Testament as evidence for the existence of Jesus. Accepting the New Testament as evidence for Jesus' historicity is not a circular religious claim of believing the Bible because it is the Bible. Described without religious jargon, the New Testament is a library of some 27 separate texts written by members of an ancient Jewish sect who believed their leader was the Messiah. Only later were these texts brought together into one collection that we know today as the New Testament. It includes four biographies of this leader written by different people within 80 (or less) years of his life. There are discrepancies between these four biographies, but not so severe as to doubt the basic historicity of the founder of the sect. If archaeologists today dug up four ancient biographies of someone who lived less than a century before the biographies were written, they would be justified in accepting the historicity of the person even if the biographies differed in some of the specifics.

Most scholars agree that the earliest manuscript of the New Testament is a small piece of papyrus (known as P 52) dated to about AD 125. It is a small fragment--all that survives--of an early copy of the Gospel of John. There are a few other papyrus fragments of New Testament books dated to the 2nd century, and there are a lot of papyri dated to the third century. Our first complete New Testament is dated to about AD 350.

This evidence may seem thin to contemporary minds who want "scientific certainty." But history, especially ancient history, works with limited evidence and makes practical, reasonable judgments from available sources. "Scientific certainty" isn't even relevant to the discussion. We know most people from ancient history from sources that post-date their lives. Strong contemporary evidence for ancient persons is rare, because contemporary bureaucratic records didn't survive. Since Jesus was the leader of a small religious sect in the backwaters of the Roman empire, the evidence we have for his existence is as good or better than could be expected.

Norrie, here is your answer. Jesus did exist, however he had no special powers of any kind. He was not the son of God. Religious people as a whole are obtuse. They quote scriptures in order to make a point. Have you ever heard a religious person say i don't know? They are hubris and ignorant at the same time. Ask your religious friends this question. What does GOD look like? Not Jesus but God. Why is GOD male? God according to religion is a spirit. Since when does an entity have a sexual nature. Why isn't God a woman? In our world who gives life? When was the last time a man gave birth? If God gives life wouldn't he be a woman?

Norrie, here is your answer. Jesus did exist, however he had no special powers of any kind. He was not the son of God. Religious people as a whole are obtuse. They quote scriptures in order to make a point. Have you ever heard a religious person say i don't know? They are hubris and ignorant at the same time. Ask your religious friends this question. What does GOD look like? Not Jesus but God. Why is GOD male? God according to religion is a spirit. Since when does an entity have a sexual nature. Why isn't God a woman? In our world who gives life? When was the last time a man gave birth? If God gives life wouldn't he be a woman?

Norrie, here is your answer. Jesus did exist, however he had no special powers of any kind. He was not the son of God. Religious people as a whole are obtuse. They quote scriptures in order to make a point. Have you ever heard a religious person say i don't know? They are hubris and ignorant at the same time. Ask your religious friends this question. What does GOD look like? Not Jesus but God. Why is GOD male? God according to religion is a spirit. Since when does an entity have a sexual nature. Why isn't God a woman? In our world who gives life? When was the last time a man gave birth? If God gives life wouldn't he be a woman?

Norrie, here is your answer. Jesus did exist, however he had no special powers of any kind. He was not the son of God. Religious people as a whole are obtuse. They quote scriptures in order to make a point. Have you ever heard a religious person say i don't know? They are hubris and ignorant at the same time. Ask your religious friends this question. What does GOD look like? Not Jesus but God. Why is GOD male? God according to religion is a spirit. Since when does an entity have a sexual nature. Why isn't God a woman? In our world who gives life? When was the last time a man gave birth? If God gives life wouldn't he be a woman?

Jason:
    With one exception, I am not any overall kind of "ist." I am a philosophical integrationist, and I always hesitate to use that term because there are so many ignoramuses who equate it with "racial integration," whereas it has nothing to do with that subject. A philosophical integrationist is one who absorbs a wide variety of disciplines into his or her thinking and amalgamates them to arrive at a position that will be held until further information alters it.
    F. Scott Fitzgerald offered, as a test of someone's sanity, the ability to hold two contradictory ideas in the mind without going crazy. The philosophical integrationist must be able to hold dozens, scores, maybe even hundreds, of contradictory ideas in her or his built-in computer, the mind, without going crazy.
    As for empiricism, as you know that is defined, in regard to philosophical position, as the doctrine that all knowledge is derived from experience. I derive my knowledge via information from other minds that exhibit attention to detail along with logic and reason, and from evidence - whether obtained from reading or discussion or personal experience. I accept the experience of others if it is backed up by evidence and if it makes sense. Nicholas Wright has neither to offer. I will bet you my whole bank account that the only "evidence" to which "Chris" has reference consists of what Wright has read in the New Testament, since that is the only source of purported information about "Jesus" and the "apostles." The problem with self-described "Christians" is that they cannot get it through their feeble brains that scriptures do not provide evidence of anything.
    I trust I have now answered your question, and I apologize for not having answered it before. - Burton

US Marine:

I do not have an abundance of education or any expertise concerning this topic.However I can speak confidently of my experiences in life and how God has shaped and saved it(many times over).To all who doubt that Jesus is who He said He was,I challenge you to have a seat in your home and tell Him just that.I guarantee He will answer you...Health and happiness to everyone and I wish all a safe New Year.

Mr Wright:

Instead of getting confused or confuse others, go to the only source that is telling it like it is about Jesus. That source states the following:

1. Jesus is the Messaiah or the Christ
2. Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel
3. Jesus was not crucified, but it was made to look so.
4. God raised Jesus from earth
5. Jesus is nothing but a prophet

It can't get clearer than that. Oh, the source, you ask? I will let you guess!

A week ago on another thread I said: "I have a question that is very serious for me: Is there any evidence that Jesus the man actually existed? Please give me a non-polemical answer" No one replied. Can anyone on this thread provide an answer?

Being familiar with the works of Wright, I would be very eager to see Burton H. Wolfe take him on. The evidence Wrihgt has is very compelling and real, and like Wright said, he has written on it at length elsewhere. It is not a discussion for this forum, although any evidence that is presented to you, you will no doubt dismiiss with your one sided pride as "hogwash" before you even try to examine it.

Mr. Wolfe, Your extreme pride in your own work is your downfall. You are just as dogmatic as those you criticise for being dogmatic. You are just as arrogant as those you criticize for being arrogant. Your arguments reek of ad-hominem attacks which lower your credibility lower then your blunt, shove-it-down-their throats point of view does. Please do us all a favor and stop posting your own self worship all over this panel.

No doubt you will criticize me too, but you will notice that I have not stated my own opinion on the matter, for all you know I could agree with your view, just not your presentation or personality.

Burton H. Wolfe:

I disagree with Wright here that Jesus can be empirically verified, but I'm not an empiricist...are you? Why did you not answer my question to you on the Land thread?

Are you an empiricist?

Paul wrote:
"He is the image of the invisible God"

As Delos B. McKown said:
The invisible and the non-existent look much alike to me.

Jesus was wrong about what God would do for him and for Israel. Isn't it time to stop paying attention to him?

Nicholas:
    Though I thought that the lunacy and fraud appearing on the On Faith web site could not possibly get any worse, with the posting of your hogwash it just did.
    In my ebook "The Case Against Jesus" - http://burtonsbooks.com - I prove by overwhelming, massive, irrefutable evidence that there was no such person as "Jesus Christ" (Joshua the messiah), that he was nothing more than an invention of ancient Hebrew scribes who rewrote the stories of prior "messiahs" into their own version of it. I challenge you to read that ebook and refute anything I have written.
    Meanwhile, I challenge you to provide any "historical evidence," even the tiniest scrap of "historical evidence," that "Jesus" or "Paul" or "John" actually existed, whether under those preposterously Anglicised names or by any other names. I challenge you to provide any "historical evidence" that the fables about "Jesus" in the "gospels" actually occurred - that he fed thousands on five fishes and a basket of bread, that he raised people from the dead, that he "walked on the sea," that he transmitted such powers to "Peter," and for starters that he was "born to a virgin" and for finishers that he was "resurrected" after being "crucified on a cross." Come on, Nicholas. You have stated for everybody visiting this web site to see that there is "historical evidence" for all of that. Let's see it. Show it to us, Nicholas. I can hardly wait to see it.

Woo-hoo! Glad to see you chiming in here, Bishop!