God With Us, Grieving

God, being in control of the universe, can prevent suffering whenever He sees fit, but wherever free will exists, consequences of choice must also exist. We refuse to remember that we are the ones who betrayed God, not vice versa. We are the ones who listened to the lies of the evil one in the Garden of Eden. We chose to mistrust the heart of God. In breaking the one command He gave us, we set in motion a life of breaking His commands.

Being able to discipline oneself for the benefit of others is the very essence of maturity. Shantideva said, “All the joy the world contains, Has come through wishing happiness for others. All the misery the world contains, Has come through wanting pleasure for oneself (at the expense of others).” How we spend our time shapes who we are, and how we assemble the persons we are is cause for social concern. What examples are adults, entrusted with the awesome responsibility for their care, to the rapidly maturing next generation who will impact our society positively or negatively depending on to what we expose them. We have experienced the natural progression of an unguarded nation towards neglect, corruption and the loss of idealism. When awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1989, the Dalai Lama said in his lecture, “…For if we each selfishly pursue only what we believe to be in our own interest, without caring about the needs of others, we end up harming not only others but also ourselves…” One does not have far to look to witness the chaos and devastation caused in our society due to our turning away as a nation from our Judeo-Christian roots. Our culture is rotting. Just listen to the lyrics of popular songs, pick up a book or magazine, view a movie or television show. Pay attention to the violence permeating our communities, the disrespect and lack of courtesy displayed by all, judicial tyranny, and the neglect of and abuse directed at women. (Could this be a direct result of pornography? Duh!) Then consider that perhaps we are allowing the wrong input in our lives and the lives of those who have been entrusted to our care. After all, we are raising our next generation of leaders!!! Words like diversity, pluralism and tolerance have anesthetized us to the reality of good and evil. Tolerance is the cultivation of an attitude of indifference to things we see happening around us. In the name of peace, we tolerate evil. In the name of tolerance, we accept sin and call it freedom of speech or freedom of sexual persuasion. Albert Einstein once said, “The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don’t do anything about it.” We dare not stand up for what we believe for fear of being labeled intolerant. Tolerance sees your sin and embraces it. Grace sees your sin and hands you over to Christ's healing embrace.

God cannot make us choose to abide with Him. For now, God, tormented, waits upon us through one holocaust after another. satan’s best deception is its general success in concealing its own reality from the human mind. Most people live in such naivete regarding evil. What will it take for us to take evil seriously? satan lashes out on the earth like a madman, setting people against each other all over the globe. it devastates many lives through starvation, alcoholism, substance abuse and pornography. satan is at work in the holocaust of violent, disrespecting aborting of babies; narcissism; materialism; elitism; and the self-absorption we wallow in when we do not ensure our next generation is brought up in a culture with enriching, wholesome values. Failing to label evil evil misleads us about the world in which we live and our necessity for God’s grace, the only real answer and hope for any of us. If you are not living in touch with God, it is easy to blame Him or pass judgment on Him. We experience suffering and temptation because mankind chose to follow satan. Lurking in the heart of man, evil will erupt when it is permitted to act unimpeded.

Entrusted with the awesome responsibility of my children’s care, I am concerned about how their generation is being raised, to what they are being exposed, and the examples they have in their lives. Are they being enriched in mind, spirit and character? They all need highly esteemed mentors to guide them along the path to liberty. If we don’t stand for something, we will fall for anything. “The humblest citizen of all the land, when clad in the armor of a righteous cause, is stronger than all the hosts of Error,” - William Jennings Bryan. Hopefully, seeking our own pleasure is not the measure of our lives. We are called to be intolerant in love. Why not live as Philippians 4:8 instructs us to: Whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. God is reaching out to rescue us … God made nature to sing His praises, to declare His glory and to love Him. He made humans with the ability to choose. He could have ordered our obedience; instead, he calls for our heart.

What are we doing in God´s world to stop evil? Hoping it will "dissappear" from others mean while we sit comfortably on the side lines convinced "we" are OK?.

Jesus died and rose again. That is the price God payed to change all our evil human hearts. Let´s get on board with the agenda of the Cross to let him change our hearts and thus put evil to death from within.

Steven posts,

"BLUE and WHITE still can't find a word in Luke 13 where Jesus is condemning violence when Jesus claimed that people must repent or perish."

I would have never guessed you to be a biblical literalist. Actually, most Christians interpret Luke 13 precisely the way you interpret it.

CARR
Steven:

I quote the Bishop of Durham.

http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Historical_Problem.htm
'In this context we must set Daniel 12 and, in particular, 2 Maccabees, with its grisly accounts of martyrs who taunt their torturers by assuring them that they, the martyrs, will receive back from Israel’s god the physical bodies that are now being torn apart'

Wright continues later 'These righteous Jews who have been martyred at the hands of the pagans....'

I'm guessing from this quote that you believe that the use of the phrase, "righteous Jews," is a phrase that is particular to Wright as if he was making a qualative statement by using this phrase. It's not. It's a technical phrase used during that time period of Jewish people who resisted foreign domination.

Or perhaps, you somehow believe that Wright's observation that the martyrs anticipated that they would be given new physical bodies, is his personal praise of their sacrifice.

Where do you see Dr. Wright praising Jewish people for their violent revolt of pagans??

MIKE K is quite right.

Still, God allegedly did once save one child from a massacre.

He warned the parents of Jesus that he was in peril from Herod.

God teaches us a valuable lesson.

If there is a massacre of children, make sure your child is safe, and let the others fend for themselves.

CARR
"As it happens, the Bishop of Durham has praised people who took part in the violent revolt of the Maccabees as martyrs."

ANONYMOUS
That's simply not true. Offer the quote (not your interpretation) and the source of where you claim Dr. Wright has said this.

CARR
I quote the Bishop of Durham.

http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Historical_Problem.htm
'In this context we must set Daniel 12 and, in particular, 2 Maccabees, with its grisly accounts of martyrs who taunt their torturers by assuring them that they, the martyrs, will receive back from Israel’s god the physical bodies that are now being torn apart'

Wright continues later 'These righteous Jews who have been martyred at the hands of the pagans....'

BLUE and WHITE still can't find a word in Luke 13 where Jesus is condemning violence when Jesus claimed that people must repent or perish.

Still, I will leave him believing that Jesus was preaching a way that Jesus believed would not lead to Christians suffering at the hands of Romans :-)

Does NT Wright really condemn the violent revolt of the Maccabees as being exactly the sort of violent revolt Jesus was against?

Of course he doesn't!

Jeff, you posted "The reality of this world is that God allows man his free will. If free will choices were not present, we would have no souls. We would be robotic. Allowing free will means there will be people who do terrible things and it means cultures will go terribly wrong at times."

Why do you hold your god to a lower standard of conduct than humans? Why aren't humans concerned with the sanctity of free will when when it's used for evil? Crimes are committed all time while your god stands by. Children drown in pools while your god stands by. Yet any decent human would stop them. Are they guilty of crimes against free will?

What about the nonmoral evils that your god (presumably) allows to happen, like tsunamis and earthquakes. There's no free will involved in there. What about birth defects?

CARR Says,

"Of course, nobody was doing any such thing at the time Jesus was telling people to repent or perish.

This is probably why Luke 13 contains not one word claiming that people were trying to overthrow the Romans by violence, or one word bye Jesus telling people to stop doing that."

If you don't put scripture in its proper historical context, you will interpret it any way you want. So sure, one possibility is that Jesus pulled that line about perishing out of thin air in a general sort of way.

"As it happens, the Bishop of Durham has praised people who took part in the violent revolt of the Maccabees as martyrs."

That's simply not true. Offer the quote (not your interpretation) and the source of where you claim Dr. Wright has said this.

Maybe what you meant to say was that in that particular historical context, many people in Israel celebrated the successful revolt of the Maccabees.

I don't mind differences of opinions on this board but when you offer a disagreement by discrediting the author of the original post falsely, you need to back it up.

Cho is certainly responsible for what he did as are each of us for what we did or didn’t do. God showed up in Jesus of Nazareth and revealed how each of us can continue to show up. We’re slow learners!

Once the course is completed God will have put everything right with heaven and earth integrated and everyone living there according to God’s original plan.

BLUE AND WHITE
Jesus is telling them that if they continue to try to overthrow the Romans by violence, they will end up dying at the hands of the Romans.

CARR
Of course, nobody was doing any such thing at the time Jesus was telling people to repent or perish.

This is probably why Luke 13 contains not one word claiming that people were trying to overthrow the Romans by violence, or one word bye Jesus telling people to stop doing that.

As it happens, the Bishop of Durham has praised people who took part in the violent revolt of the Maccabees as martyrs.

What goes around, comes around.

That is what can be said my friends.

What goes around, comes around.

Imagine if something like what happened in Blacksburg happened here every day. Yesterday was an average day.

BAGHDAD Apr 18, 2007 (AP)— Two explosions rocked Baghdad at midday Wednesday, killing at least 15 people and wounding 19, police said.

Meanwhile, U.S. troops killed five suspects and captured 30 others in a raid in Iraq's western Anbar province, a day after police uncovered 17 decomposing corpses beneath two school yards in the provincial capital.

- Thanks Blue and White for giving the proper context of Luke 13, which was originally misapplied. Words only have meaning in context and such is true in the Bible as well as in real life. Taking one snippet and universalizing it is not a fair treatment (so with the above use of Isaiah 45:7; which is in the context of God bringing judgment on His people, Israel, at that time - they were in the Babylonian captivity).

The reality of this world is that God allows man his free will. If free will choices were not present, we would have no souls. We would be robotic. Allowing free will means there will be people who do terrible things and it means cultures will go terribly wrong at times.

The shooting at Virginia Tech was tragic and senseless - a young man who never embraced (or perhaps experienced) real love and purpose for his life. I pray for the families involved. Yet, unexpected and premature death happens every day in this nation. On an average day in America, 115 people lose their lives unexpectedly from motor vehicle deaths. A signficant percentage of those are young people. Why do we not grieve every day for those families?

Free will and free actions make it a dangerous world from a physical perspective. And, while we should seek make the world the best place we can, there is no escaping that life is short, random, and unpredictable. All the more reason to consider our relationship to our Creator. He doesn't promise a long and lasting life. He does demonstrate His love through His son and the hope of eternal life, and a better life.

"Jesus had a philosophy that people get what is coming to them"

please elaborate.

Blue & White: I've never heard the passage in Luke applied that way. I don't necessarily agree, but it is an interesting take.

thanks

Steven: You post,

"Luke 13:5 'Or those eighteen who were killed when the tower of Siloam fell on them - do you think they were worse offenders than all the others living in Jerusalem? No I tell you, but unless you repent, you will all perish just as they did.'
Jesus had a philosophy that people get what is coming to them.
Not one that I personally share...."

Jesus is telling them that if they continue to try to overthrow the Romans by violence, they will end up dying at the hands of the Romans. As a result of a future battle with Rome, buildings will collapse on them (see reference to Siloam.) In this passage, Jesus is calling for the people to adopt his way of peace. If they continue to way of revolution, it will end in disaster. In other words, this isn't a general story about being good and faithful to God or you'll get what's coming to you. It's a story about adopting Jesus' Kingdom way of peace because whether they want to believe it or not, the Romans will not be stopped by Israel's forceful resistance.

Jesus uses the Siloam reference (which was a random tragedy that that had already happened in their lifetime)and he applied it to the specific situation of how the people of God should relate to Rome, which Jesus says, should be the way of peace and nonviolence.

The way of peace is something that I hope most people seek to share.

Ghostbuster 'I wonder if God bought that excuse from him yesterday?'

CARR
Won't God just forgive him unconditionally in the way that Christians forgive people unconditionally?

But will God forgive the people who were killed, who were, if the Bible is correct, unrighteous sinners, just as bad as the killer?

Luke 13:5 'Or those eighteen who were killed when the tower of Siloam fell on them - do you think they were worse offenders than all the others living in Jerusalem? No I tell you, but unless you repent, you will all perish just as they did.'

Jesus had a philosophy that people get what is coming to them.

Not one that I personally share....

'My faith tradition (ordinary Christianity) doesn't really try to explain the origin of evil either in general or in particular awful situations.'

ISAIAH 45:7
'I form light and create darkness. I make good and create disaster. I the LORD do all these things.'

The word for 'disaster' is the same word used in Genesis to describe the tree of knowledge of good and disaster.

God passes by on the other side when tragedy strikes.

But Jesus backed up Wright's claim that God was 'sharing and bearing the pain and the burden.', when He said 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?', which is an irrefutable proof that the one true God of monotheistic Christianity was on the Cross, sharing the pain and the burden.

omigod, ET - you did it too.

"The idea that a single sentence encapsulates the whole of religious belief is absurd to the extreme."

ET,

Try: OM MANI PADME HUM

Your in the Buddha.

Mr. Mark,

The idea that a single sentence encapsulates the whole of religious belief is absurd to the extreme.

Drose wrote:

"MR MARK,

"Perhaps GOD has done so, repeatedly - how would one know that GOD prevented the unexpected?"

Thank you, Drose. In the space of a single sentence, you've encapsulated the whole of religious belief (ie: "how would one know that god...").

I don't know if that was your intention, but I salute you for the effort.

MR MARK,

Perhaps GOD has done so, repeatedly - how would one know that GOD prevented the unexpected?

Naw Mr. Mark:

It's much more dramatic if it's a last second rescue.

Wouldn't it be nice if once, just ONCE, god would decide to show up a day earlier and stop such a tragedy before it happened?

Ann O,

From the little we currently know about the killer's motives from a letter written in his own words and posted on various news sites, he says... "You caused me to do this".

You. Not me. I am not responsible for my own actions. I wonder if God bought that excuse from him yesterday?

People will spend the next few days blaming everything and everyone for the magnitude of this tradgedy.

Sometimes when we clearly see the face of primitive evil we are only left wishing there must be more to it.

BISHOP WRIGHT tells us: ... the fact of the incarnation and the cross means that the creator God is with us in the middle of the horror, sharing and bearing the pain and the burden. This, clearly, is why so many medieval churches -- at a time of endless wars, incurable diseases, social ills, and so on -- had (to us) quite graphic and gory pictures and statues of the crucifixion.

ANN O. responds: Thanks, Bishop, for that explanation of all the gory medieval images. It makes much more sense than the stereotype of the medievals as sadists/masochists who were anti-life.

ISTM the apparent utter irrationality of the shooting is what shocks us most. But, of course, the shooter did have motives, however twisted they were. The theological question then becomes: how does such objective evil *fit* in God's world? How can it be even considered as a *part* of God's world? The killer and the victims shared one space-time, but does that mean they really lived in the same "world"? In some very primitive way they did, of course. But surely there must be more to it.

Ann O.