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here's an argument in response to nt wright's article that is a reversal of societies semantic with a true semantic. everybody's faith position is fundamental. everyone's position is "religious" & "extreme". everybody comes to the table with their faith assumptions about eternity which are fundamental, exclusive & dogmatic even if they are so in a seemingly less obvious fashion. even a "neutral" position, which i do not believe exists, is "fundamentally" that. one only needs to be honest & think a little to realize that the claim that all religions are simultaneously valid is as absolute as saying there is one God- while simultaneously displaying ignorance of the logical incompatibility of different claims. it is important to talk & much guttsier to tackle the issues & analyze the "truths" & fallaciousness of different faith claims- but with the full knowledge that at some point it will come to an irreconcilable head- at which point, if there is not a change of the heart the intellectual argument is futile. and so the age we are in is an age where the logical irreconcilability of all the different faith calims is rearing it's head. and without basing ourselves in help from the true God & His truth- & certainly not by trying to smooth things over with political correctness- is there a way to argue or prove to anyone that flying planes into buildings in the name of their god is wrong-

here's an argument in response to nt wright's article that is a reversal of societies semantic with a true semantic. everybody's faith position is fundamental. everyone's position is "religious" & "extreme". everybody comes to the table with their faith assumptions about eternity which are fundamental, exclusive & dogmatic even if they are so in a seemingly less obvious fashion. even a "neutral" position, which i do not believe exists, is "fundamentally" that. one only needs to be honest & think a little to realize that the claim that all religions are simultaneously valid is as absolute as saying there is one God- while simultaneously displaying ignorance of the logical incompatibility of different claims. it is important to talk & much guttsier to tackle the issues & analyze the "truths" & fallaciousness of different faith claims- but with the full knowledge that at some point it will come to an irreconcilable head- at which point, if there is not a change of the heart the intellectual argument is futile. and so the age we are in is an age where the logical irreconcilability of all the different faith calims is rearing it's head. and without basing ourselves in help from the true God & His truth- & certainly not by trying to smooth things over with political correctness- is there a way to argue or prove to anyone that flying planes into buildings in the name of their god is wrong-

Tonio writes:

'If Wright's proposal for a debate should ever become a reality, I urge the believers to focus on what kind of world they want to live in, instead of trying to figure out what kind of world their god wants.'

Tonio, that's exactly it!

That's why the world is like it is. We all want the world the way WE would like it. Hence the anger and frustration, oppression and terrorism, ideologies, nationalism and wars.

Unfortunately, humanity, even with Christianity, has turned its back on the Bible, returned to the techniques of political power that Christ overcame, to achieve what we think is good.

'There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end leads to death.'
Proverbs 14:12

Brad

You are quite right, actually. My choise of words was not well thought out. My point was that the Bishop's own writings provide the answer to the question he is asking. For those not familiar with them his best is probably "Jesus and the Victory of GOd". Highly recommended.

Bill

This conundrum CAN be resolved... quickly... easily... economically... once and for all.

My simple solution requres only that for one whole month, every newspaper in the free world devote its front page to cartoons ridiculing Allah (peace on him) and Mohammed (peace on him, too). By the end of that time, all of Islam will have self-destructed in a paroxysm of snits, hissy-fits and terminal apoplexy. WARNING: This will not be pretty... but the world will be a much better place for it.

My only regret in this is that I cannot think of a similarly uncomplicated, cost-effective and efficient stratagem to dismantle Christianity... but, oh well... one thing at a time. One only does what one can.

To JD:

How different from Muslim fundamentalists are the Christian fundamentalists who bomb abortion clinics?

How different from Muslim fundamentalists are the Christian fundamentalists who persecute and murder African-Americans and Jews, as well as Caucasian-Americans whom they deem race-traitors?

Maybe more of this lumping together would be a good thing. Birds of a feather...

Respectfully,
Nick Gill
Frankfort, KY

Bill Skelton, you said "My impression of him is that threatened with a cruel death at the hand of a moslem he would say rather something to the effect that 'Jesus is Lord and Mohamad isn't.'" This is all well and good, but I don't see how this is any different then "talking religion" since that is a profoundly religious (and/or theological) statement!

The main difference ignored by the Bishop is that while one might blame Christians for being hypocrites to their religion in trying to "dominate" Iraq and Afghanistan, one can't blame the radical Muslims for that: they are following the clear teachings of Mohammmed in blowing nonbelievers to Hell. One of the truest teachings of protestant Christianity, as opposed to Catholicism, is to not look to the (very fallible) Church, but look to Christ -- only he is perfect. If one compares Christ and Mohammed, one sees differences of abyssian proportion. If one looks at the people who follow each, one will see a lot of sinful, fallible humans.

Sorry my mistake Sura 9:29

I do not want to talk to a muslim other than to tell him about Jesus. Why? Sura 29:9 If he is true to the Koran he has to obey

I'm sure that if God knew what people would say after they had 'spoken' to him, he would be a lot clearer in his answers to their prayers for guidance, and not give one answer to one person's prayers, and tell somebody else something quite different.

Oh wait, people are talking to themselves when they pray, which is why they get such widely different messages from their 'god'

Bishop Tom

I'm a bit supprised to hear that you would have nothing better to say to a Muslem terorist than "let's talk some religion".

There is a writer you might wish to aquaint yourself with. His name is N. T. Wright. My impression of him is that threatened with a cruel death at the hand of a moslem he would say rather something to the effect that "Jesus is Lord and Mohamad isn't"

Tom and N.T. should get together!

Bill Skelton, PCA

Bishop Tom

I'm a bit supprised to hear that you would have nothing better to say to a Muslem terorist than "let's talk some religion".

There is a writer you might wish to aquaint yourself with. His name is N. T. Wright. My impression of him is that threatened with a cruel death at the hand of a moslem he would say rather something to the effect that "Jesus is Lord and Mohamad isn't"

Tom and N.T. should get together!

Bill Skelton, PCA

Allah Who?

Hmmm, strange "god" who degrades women and sends Muslim boys, men and women on suicide missions.

Hmmm, strange "god" invented by some hallucinagenic Arab centuries ago.

Hmmm, strange "god" who sends a "pwtfft" to communicate with said "holy hallucinator".

Hmmm, strange "god" whose members borrowed and plagiarized the good books of the ancients.

Hmmm, strange "god" indeed!!!!

cut it right!
thanks respected sister victoria may ALLAH reward you.i may add the following:
1-quran is the word of ALLAH.
2-the true gospel is the word of ALLAH.
3-the true tura is the word of ALLAH.
4-any true divine book was revealed to mankind is the word of ALLAH..
5-all divine books are the word of ALLAH not the word of humanbeing,not the word of moses, not the word of jesus ,not the word of human being where every messenger of ALLAH is humanbeing,moses is human being,jesus son of marry is human being,mohamed is human being, all are food eaters and market place goers.
6-last but not least, all divine books confirm each other ,the tura that was sent to moses confirm the gospel that was revealed to jesus,both the tura and the gospel confirm the quran and the quran confirm the tura and the gospel,all confirm the reality that the creator god is one he is unique by himself none befor him and none after him ,he begets not,nor was he begotten,and there is none coequal or comparable unto him.
8-the song of the songs that mankind sing every day, willingly and unwillingly, is ,all praise goes to the creator where every single mankind live and enjoy this life that is created by the creator god ,his proper name is ALLAH the creator and originator of this universe that mankind see and doesnot see .

Have to say, what I don't understand at *all* is why, if the 'belief' is so perfect it just *has* to be the only one:

Why's the 'line' so 'fine?'

What if it's neither?

The militaristic Japanese had to be transformed the hard way so maybe a 20 kt nuke on Mecca and Medina is the only way to transform Islam.

while i believe CANYON SHEARER has good intentions- there are many misunderstandings about islam-

1) there is no GOSPEL OF MOHAMMED(pbuh)- the qu'ran is the word of ALLAH,given to the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) transmitted through the angel Jibreel(Gabriel).

2) The Literal meaning of Islam is PEACE; surrender of one's will i.e. losing oneself for the sake of God and surrendering one's own pleasure for the pleasure of God.

3)this is the danger of taking one sentence and trying to construct
3:57 "As to those who believe and work righteousness, Allah will pay them (in full) their reward; but Allah loveth not those who do wrong."
3:58 "This is what we rehearse unto thee of the Signs and the Message of Wisdom."

3:59 The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.
3:60 The Truth (comes) from Allah alone; so be not of those who doubt.
3:61 If any one disputes in this matter with thee, now after (full) knowledge Hath come to thee, say: "Come! let us gather together,- our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves: Then let us earnestly pray, and invoke the curse of Allah on those who lie!"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AS YOU CAN SEE, THE LIE IS NOT A GENERAL LIE, BUT ADDRESSING THE SPECIFIC LIE OF GIVING DIVINITY TO JESUS(ATA) AND MAKING HIM CO-EQUAL WITH GOD.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
4)"Whosoever does any work on the Sabbath, he will surely be put to death. This is in order to make sure you worship the Creator above creation."
~~~~~~~~~~~STATEMENT BY MR SHEARER~~~~~~~~~~

Assembly 62:9. O ye who believe! When the call is proclaimed to prayer on Friday (the Day of Assembly), hasten earnestly to the Remembrance of Allah, and leave off business: That is best for you if ye but knew!

10. And when the Prayer is finished, then may ye disperse through the land, and seek of the Bounty of Allah: and remember Allah frequently that ye may prosper.
``````````````````````
no sabbath, no putting to death- friday is not a holiday like sabbath but we go to pray, and return to work.

5)also, again, half of a sentence misleads rather than edifies.
``````````````````
[9:34] O you who believe, many religious leaders and preachers take the people's money illicitly, and repel from the path of GOD. Those who hoard the gold and silver, and do not spend them in the cause of GOD, promise them a painful retribution.

[9:35] The day will come when their gold and silver will be heated in the fire of Hell, then used to burn their foreheads, their sides, and their backs: "This is what you hoarded for yourselves, so taste what you have hoarded."
`````````````````````````````````
it is addressed to thieving religious leaders, not the general population.

the rest is all christian scripture so need no address.

however, the Prophet(pbuh) did not quoe Jesus(ata) and the gospel is a not a word used in the qu'ran.gospel (etymological roots)
O.E. godspel "good news," from god "good" + spel "story, message," translation of L. bona adnuntiatio, itself a translation of Gk. euangelion "reward for bringing good news." First element of the O.E. word had a long "o," but it shifted under mistaken assoc. with God. Gospel-gossip was Addison's word ("Spectator," 1711) for "one who is always talking of sermons, texts, etc."

just wanted to clarify misunderstandings

thank you for your piece mr shearer
i understand your excellent intentions and applaud the desire for unity you are working towards
peace

Canyon Shearer, your post is beautiful. Amen.

You know what, people? I happened to take note on what I stated earlier and I've made one correction: the middle-men are the ones I shouldn've termed more so arguable than any perceived god; that is Jesus, Muhammad, etc. God can exist more easily as creator of all things after all, without (for lack of a better word) hype. Again, [God is] in all after all. And I would tend to think that counts him as being creator of the universe and everything of it. But who really knows beyond a doubt?

Still, the types of middle-men mentioned -- arguably men, who've had super-powers thrust upon them through mere tales over the ages, often compel much more scrutiny and demand for vindication worldwide. And that is where I put in the demand, as I feel it is worth the risk of supposed truth universal; of course, in the name of human kind, which I happen to love.

I do appreciate that you have taken time to post your thoughts. Thanks for starting this one off. [Smile]

I love how you put it, TONIO, 'cause the main concern needing focus may first be on societal aims towards peaceful consensus, whether any perceived god is in the mix or not. In other words, maybe people can concentrate on improvement in terms of people first...for what we'd call god is notably gonna be there -- somewhere. It's been said "God is all" after all. Nevertheless, it's highly arguable that is to be tested. And I'm one who tends to demand testing. Best wishes to you all. Thanks.

Saturday, July 21, 2007
THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO MOHAMMED

Islam means “Submission to God”, as God has told us, “The Lord lifts up the humble; he casts the wicked to the ground. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.”

So the submissive will indeed go to Heaven, as long as they submit to God’s will.

One verse that jumps instantly to mind is, “God is not willing that any should perish,” God’s will includes demonstrating His righteousness, having upright followers, and that justice be done; but the most important from our earthly standpoint is that wrongdoers are rectified to Him, “that all should come to repentance."

Islam is in majority alignment with the Biblical understanding of Heaven and Hell; I think this is illustrated nicely in Surah 43 (Adornments), verses 70-77. Heaven is nice, and Hell is hot and eternal.

Where Christianity and Islam divide is how to get to Heaven; but how to get to Hell is the same in both religions.

Surah 43:74 tells us that “Sinners will be in the punishment of Hell, to dwell there forever.”

Surah 83 speaks of our conscience, the Sijjin, a register fully inscribed that will be open on the Day of Judgment; woe to the sinner, his conscience records his wrongdoings.

God knows the secret thought life, and has appointed a Judgment Day for all mankind. The Koran accepts Moses as a prophet and the Law of the 10 Commandments which were given to him. “God gave Moses the Scripture and the Criteria between right and wrong.” – Al-Baqara 2:53

If all sinners will have their punishment in Hell, it’s in our best interest to find out if we’re sinners.

Answer these questions truthfully and you’ll know:

Have you ever told a lie? What does that make you?
If I rape one girl, I’m a rapist, if I murder one person, I’m a murderer. A single lie makes me a liar. The Koran says to, “Invoke the curse of God on those who lie!”
– Al-Imran 3:61
The Bible promises that all liars will have their place in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone.

Have you ever stolen anything? What does that make you?
Both the Koran and Bible have very strict punishments for thieves. Maida 5:38 tells us, “As to the thief, cut off his or her hand(s).”

Have you always kept the Sabbath?
The Koran demands that you remember God on Friday, leaving off business and travel.
– Assembly 62:9
Whosoever does any work on the Sabbath, he will surely be put to death. This is in order to make sure you worship the Creator above creation.

Have you ever worshipped money, power, science, or possessions above God?
“Let not your riches or your children divert you from the remembrance of God. If any act thus, the loss is their own.”
– Hypocrites 63:9
This you know, no idolater will see the kingdom of God.

Have you committed adultery?
The prophet Jesus said, “Whosoever looks upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery already with her in his heart.”
The Koran is clear, “Do not come near to adultery: for it is a shameful deed and an evil, opening the road to other evils.”
– Israelites 17:32
Clearly “coming near to adultery” is the same as Jesus taught, that a lust-filled glance is seen by God as shameful. Take note that the word for adultery in Arabic is sometimes translated as “Fornication”, sex outside of marriage.

Have you ever used the name of God in Vain?
“Those before them also devised many a blasphemy, but God took their structures from their foundations, and the wrath befell them without them perceiving from whence it came.”
– Bee 16:26
God will not hold him guiltless that takes His name in vain.

If you’re like me, you’ve broken every one of these, and these are only six of the 10 Commandments. The Bible says that we have stored up wrath for ourselves on the Day of Judgment. The Koran is nearly identical, “On the day when heat will be produced out of the fire of Hell, and it will brand your forehead, your flanks, and your back, “This is the treasure which you stored for yourselves: you then taste the treasure you amassed!” – Immunity 9:35

There is a minor difference in the Hell of the Bible and the Hell of the Koran. In the Bible it says that we will beg for a drop of water, but none will come. The Koran says that we will have an overabundance of water, albeit it will be superheated past boiling and we will be forced to drink it, and it will wreak havoc on our insides. Either way, Hell is not somewhere I want to go, nor do I want you to go there.

There is a way to be saved from this punishment we have earned, it is the Injeel which according to the Koran was given to the prophet Jesus. Injeel means, “Good News”, and avoiding such a terrible place as Hell is definitely good news.

Some think that the good news is that we can work our way out of Hell. Both the Koran and the Bible refer to God as a just judge, so lets see how an earthly judge might relate. Imagine you stand before a judge, there are six clear evidences of your guilt, and the judge puts on you a fine that you cannot possibly pay. You offer the judge your good works, you’ve given to charity, you pray unceasingly, you are nice to people, you ask for forgiveness daily, you help little old ladies across the street, and to top it all off, you washed the judges car on the way in to court. The judge tells you, you should do good things, but you've broken the law; he cannot let you go, because despite all of the good you’ve done, justice is due. You cry out in repentance and sorrow, and the judge tells you it’s good that you’re sorry, but there is a fine to be paid, and if you can’t pay it, you will be thrown into prison.

This is the earthly judge, how much more Holy and Just is the Judge of the Universe? Payment is due for your transgression, and the Bible and the Koran clearly state that the fine is the eternal fire of Hell.

But here is the good news, God gave us the gift of a holy son (Maryam 19:19), born of the virgin Maryam, this son’s name was Jesus, and because he was holy, He lived a perfect unblemished life, he was tempted but didn’t sin; in the writing of Moses about the Passover Lamb, the lamb must be without blemish, a male, taken from amongst its brethren (Exodus 12:5). Another name for Jesus is the Lamb of God (Revelation 5:12). Jesus was offered as the sinless sacrifice to take away the sins of the world (Johannes 1:29). Jesus was hung on the cross outside of Jerusalem on Calvary hill, a hill not two miles from where Ibrahim offered his son as a sacrifice 1700 years prior. Jesus died in our stead, he paid our fine in his own life’s blood. The wrath of God was poured out upon him and it pleased God to do it. Jesus went through Hell so we wouldn’t have to, in an infinite showing of love God sacrificed Jesus so that we can be forgiven, he was the propitiation for our sins.

The Koran says that our sins are a stain on the heart, (Al-Mutaffifin 83:14) and Maryam 19:60 says that if you’ll repent and believe, then you will see Heaven. Mohammed was quoting the prophet Jesus when he said, "Repent and believe the Gospel", in other words, repent and believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Christ, the propitiation for your sins. Once you have done this, your sins will be forgiven, your stained heart will be replaced with a new heart (Ezekiel 11:19), and you will be born again into the family of God.

If any man does this, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. – 2 Corinthians 5:17

Kind of shameful to lump Christian fundamentalists into the same group as those who strap a bomb to themselves and kill innocent men women and children without clarifying what you define the CF as? For one who taught New Testament studies for 20 years you don't represent the Angelican church well.

Tonio, I think your response is a valid concern; however, I do think (using Wright's term) "most" believers - of any religion - know *what* their God wants. The divergence results from *how* that aim is manifested in people's lives. I myself have been appalled by the seemingly disingenuous and half-minded actions of numerous "believers" - even in my own family.

The challenge to the human heart (in "most" religions) is are you willing to submit parts of yourself to achieve the world desired by God? That submission has two forms: 1) laying down your current interests to allow someone else to forward theirs, and 2) giving your talents to forward interests of the group (friend, spouse, family, work place, humanity). Those two forms aim at the *how* we are to live.

In our western world view, doing those two things often is at odds with *what* world we want to live in.

Here's on reason that society uses phrases like "religious extremists" - many of us outside the religion honestly do not understand how believers who worship the same god and who believe in the same holy book can disagree so strongly on what their god allegedly wants.

The problem, as I see it, is that the believers have wrongly chosen to focus the debate in terms of what their god wants, with questions of human happiness and suffering treated as secondary. There is no basis for making any sort of claim as to a god's intentions. One cannot prove that a god wants humans to love each other, any more than one can prove that the god wants believers to persecute unbelievers.

If Wright's proposal for a debate should ever become a reality, I urge the believers to focus on what kind of world they want to live in, instead of trying to figure out what kind of world their god wants.