Whispers of Hope from the Dead

Thank you Bishop N.T Wright, this is a great paper and well interpreted, this question is most difficult to answer especially in an African culture or context. Our theological stance on this issue, would either fall on the biblical approach or deviate in placing more emphasis to tradition, however, there should be a balance. To have a balance approach is again a difficult task, our biased interpretation always conveys an abscure message. I am a theology student and am always grappling with these questions, and to present the gospel effectively and interestingly in this contemporary changing world. It is challenging, but very exciting, knowing that throughout Scripture these issues are also highlighted and challenged. Once again thank you, looking forward hearing from you.

Mzwandile
mzwandilenku@yahoo.com

Eager Berean:

Thanks for the poem and for the source. I really appreciate it. Also, thanks for posting the Irish sacred space website. I'll check it out.

Peace & Joy,

G K Chesterton

Just opened some mail and found a poem that I thought you might appreciate:

Primary Wonder

Days pass when I forgot the mystery.
Problems insoluble and problems offering
their own ignored solutions
jostle for my attention, they crowd its antechanber
along with a host of diversions, my courtiers, wearing
their colored clothes; cap and bells.
And then
once more the quiet mystery
is present with me, the throng's clamor
recedes: the mystery
that there is anything, anything at all,
let alone cosmos, joy, memory, everything,
rather than void: and that, O Lord,
Creator, Hallowed One, You still,
hour by hour sustain it.

Denise Levertov, The Stream and the Sapphire, 1997

Brandon

We all struggle with doubt, but, as you observe, you have conviction in your heart, the Holy Spirit has taken up residence there and will sustain your faith.

Doubt may be a gift when it stimulates us to study the scriptures and to communicate with each other to clarify our understanding as well as to encourage us by our fellowship.

One of the supports that has helped me is listening to N. T. Wright's lectures posted on his web page. These are not as detailed as his monumental work, The Resurrection of the Son of God, but they are accessible and helpful.

Go to www.ntwrightpage.com

Scroll dowm to 'Wright Audio/Visual' and find

1) Did Jesus Really Rise from the Dead?
2) Resurrection and the Future World
3) Resurrection and the Task of the Christian
4) Resurrection and the Calling of the Christian
5) Can a Scientist Believe in the Resurrection?

On a more personal, daily basis, I find Sacred Space, a prayer site maintained by some Irish Jesuits to be uplifting. Try it at

www.sacredspace.ie

Millions use it daily.

God bless.

Brandon

You might appreciate hearing lectures that N.T.Wright has given on the resurrection. They don't cover the subject in the detail that you find in his monumental work, The Resurrection of the Son of God, but they are stimulating and represent the careful scholarship of a historian-theologian who has canvassed all sides of the issue nad provides, not just criticism, but substantive evidence.

Go to www.ntwrightpage.com

Under the Wright Audio/Visual section look for the following:

1) Did Jesus Really Rise from the Dead?
2) Resurrection and the Future World
3) Resurrection and the Task of the Church
4) Resurrection and the Calling of the Christian
5) Can a Scientist Believe in the Resurrection

Our God will supply all your needs according to his riches in Christ Jesus.

Brandon:

Thanks for your post. It seems that many posters on boards like this (not all) who reject the Christian faith do so out of a number of reasons. Some have been hurt by other Christians or even churches and Lord knows, this goes on all the time. Check out Philip Yancey's book, "Soul Survivor" which details his extremely bigoted church of childhood and how he was able to see things from a different perspective when he started reading Christian authors who were able to bring the intellect and faith together while holding on to historic Christianity. I highly recommend that book.

Also, there are many bible scholars (not just NT Wright) who argue that we moderns often misrepresent historic Christianity because of our post-enlightenment worldview (ie. closed universe, confusion over what is metaphor and what is historical, & dualism in which our society separates the physical from the non-physical, etc.) Wright is popular because he articulates historic Christianity so well. Check out his book, "Simply Christian."

I became a Christian about a year ago. About seven months ago, I was hit with heavy doubts and questions about my faith. I have read these obnoxious online secular blogs written by people who attempt to "disprove" Christianity. Sometimes, these doubts of mine fade and my faith feels strong, other times, these doubts hit fiercely. These doubts of mine concern the historicity of the resurrection of Jesus mainly. I know Jesus rose, I have that conviction in my heart, I just want my mind to know as well, once again. Irresponsible statements made by atheists really hit me hard sometimes, such as the claim that Christian apologists are intellectually dishonest. I know that is a lie but, again, it's a matter of my mind accepting the truth of the resurrection of Jesus. Please, if there is any insight you can share, please let me know. Thank you very much.

God bless you.

Brandon Marone

I indeed respect Dr. Wright for his masterful work in the area of biblical and theological studies. Good holistic look on the issue, although little short and simplistic.

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated wrote:
"Realist,

Hmmm, the Church of Reality. Skimmed their website. Nothing about Jesus and the good ancients but alot about nature, stars and galaxies. On a quick take, it should be called the Church of the Hubble T. :)"

Yes, my point exactly. ;-)

Regards,
Realist

Realist,

Hmmm, the Church of Reality. Skimmed their website. Nothing about Jesus and the good ancients but alot about nature, stars and galaxies. On a quick take, it should be called the Church of the Hubble T. :)

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated wrote:
Hmmm, how about The Creed of Reality" or simply "Truth".

Concerned, I think you've almost figured it out.
I think the Church of Reality would be more like the truth :-) :
http://www.churchofreality.org

Regards,
Realist

GK,

Hmmm, how about The Creed of Reality" or simply "Truth".

Let's label it, degrade it, bottle it, save it

It's not mine, it's wrong.

"I'm not sure what name would be good to call the religion of this creed."

Scientology?

Eager Berean

Of course he would. By the grace of God, not simply externally, but interally, by being called out of darkness and seeing the light revealed by the Holy Spirit, those that have been called finally (if they so chose) see wisdom, beauty, love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, exccellence and the suitableness in and of Jesus and Paul's Gospel, feel the power of it it upon thier souls and then chose. I do see your point however and really only know that Paul would only agree with me wholly on the fact that the real chief of sinners were in front of him, namely me!!

Bless your continued search for truth, life and peace. What a wonderful adventure.....be cheerful

Eager Berean

Of course he would. By the grace of God, not simply externally, but interally, by being called out of darkness and seeing the light revealed by the Holy Spirit, those that have been called finally (if they so chose) see wisdom, beauty, love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, exccellence and the suitableness in and of Jesus and Paul's Gospel, feel the power of it it upon thier souls and then chose. I do see your point however and really only know that Paul would only agree with me wholly on the fact that the real chief of sinners were in front of him, namely me!!

Bless your continued search for truth, life and peace. What a wonderful adventure.....be cheerful

Eager Berean

Of course he would. By the grace of God, not simply externally, but interally, by being called out of darkness and seeing the light revealed by the Holy Spirit, those that have been called finally (if they so chose) see wisdom, beauty, love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, exccellence and the suitableness in and of Jesus and Paul's Gospel, feel the power of it it upon thier souls and then chose. I do see your point however and really only know that Paul would only agree with me wholly on the fact that the real chief of sinners were in front of him, namely me!!

Bless your continued search for truth, life and peace. What a wonderful adventure.....be cheerful

David

"The truth of Jesus' life, death, resurrection and now lordship over all the cosmos can only come from revelation and not rationalism."

Does St. Paul echo your point in 1 Corinthians 1:18-25?

"Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength" (vs. 25)

I am struck by the fact that God comes to us in a lowly manger without fanfare. He might have come in a blazing heat of logic and reduced us all to insignificance. But the love of the God and Father of our Lord, Jesus, the Christ, woos us rather than dominates us.

So much of our discourse deteriorates into efforts to dominate each other. The love of God moves us to appeal, to proclaim the good news that Jesus died to defeat all the evil virus that infects our poor globe and rose from the grave in a renewed, indestructible body, as evidence that God will renew the heavens and the earth and provide a new environmwent of justice and mercy for those who answer his call.

This is good news for thei weary, war-torn world!

"The New Apostles' Creed After Proper Historical and Archeological Analyses:"

Concerned: You need a different name for this creed since it doesn't reflect what the early church fathers had in mind when they began to formulate the Apostles' Creed as early as the 4th century.

Since this sounds more like a post-enlightenment deconstruction and stripped down version of Christianity. I'm not sure what name would be good to call the religion of this creed.

The New Apostles' Creed After Proper Historical and Archeological Analyses:

I believe in a Singularity, Creator of the Big Bang.

And in Jesus born to Mary and Joseph.
He lived and preached a fulfillment of the good ways and sayings of the ancients.

By so doing, he offended the religious and political elite and therefore was tortured, crucified, died and was buried.

His Soul resides in the spirit world (Heaven?) along with the souls/spirits of all good persons so departed.

Alleluia!!!!!!

The Apostle's creed seems to agree. Check the part about descending into hell.

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth;
And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
Born of the Virgin Mary,
Suffered under Pontius Pilate,
Was crucified, dead, and buried,
He descended into hell;
The third day he rose again from the dead,
He ascended into heaven,
And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Ghost;
The holy Catholick Church;
The Communion of Saints;
The Forgiveness of sins;
The Resurrection of the body,
And the life everlasting. Amen.

BCP

Bishop Wright wrote:

"...bodily resurrection following a period of being bodily dead.

"For that to happen, as all C1 Jews and Christians knew, meant that between bodily death and bodily resurrection there would be a period of 'life after death' in a disembodied state..."

This appears identical to the traditional Buddhist belief that between death and rebirth/reincarnation (resurrection), the person resides in a disembodied condition, in the "in-between-state" known as the Bardo of Becoming.

I don't know what to make of this, but the parallel is eerily exact.

Perhaps the two identical beliefs form part of what Aldous Huxley called "The Perennial Philosophy".

What ever happened the God who created the Heavens and the Earth? Crossan and such like children imagine a diminutive God with an even lower IQ than theirs, and one constrained by their primitive understanding. God is unbearably brilliant, incomparably powerful, and the more we learn of God's creation by science the greater we know its Creator to be.

What does one of your red blood cells think of you? Do you imagine it understands the newspaper you read in the morning? The difference between a red blood cell and you is negligible compared to the difference between you and the creator God. We will be given to wonder about the greatness of God, if we have the courage. But our wonderings do not constrain God.

The ancient Hebrews knew this well and gave us the Book of Job.

Job 38

1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:
2 Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and thou declare unto Me.
4 Where were thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who determined the measures thereof, if thou knowest? Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon were its foundations fastened?

Job knew he could not answer.

I know I cannot answer.

Crossan cannot answer either; but still "darkens counsel by words without knowledge."

David:

Now don't be so sure of that, meeting me after the revelation. I'm planning to be with the non participants. We get to watch while Jesus, son of Lucifer sits by while the hordes from hell fight again with Michael and the heavenly host.

Ref: http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul just so we can get on the same page in the book.

Jesus is the son of the being Moses made the deal with. You know, the one in the fire that's just like hell fire, burns but does not consume so you won't ever burn up. That critter has been identified. He's the fallen angel, Lucifer that tried to take over heaven and got his rear end kicked by the arc angel Michael and the good angels. Devils are bad angels you know.

Makes sense. Only Devil would want His only begotten son sacrificed to Him. God has no need for that kind of nonsense. And you faith that was so sins could be forgiven. Sure. Devil forgives your sins. Why wouldn't Lucifer and His son Jesus lie and tell you your sins are forgiven?

Sucker! Religion is Devil worship. Jesus is the son of Lucifer. Jesus and Moses followers, through Lucifer's ministers are being lead in droves to hell so Lucifer can raise an army to attack God again. Revelation is a hallucinater's conception of the big fight when Lucifer attacks next time. Belong to a religion, go to hell and be drafted into Lucifer's army.

The notion that Jesus is "the Christ" is just that, a notion. Jesus is really the great anti Christ. Revelation has Jesus' gang winning. That's usual for those planning a war, take Iraq for example.

So David my friend I would like to see you but I doubt if "pride of the Marines" Pat Robertson will give you liberty. Pat holds the record, only Marine in the history of the Corps to suffer combat fatigue days before the battle began. He's the one that will lead Lucifer's army against God, try to take over heaven, again.

Fight hard. I've heard there's a fire extinguisher in heaven. And good luck. You'll need it.

We all begin by leaning on our own understanding. The truth of Jesus' life, death, resurrection and now lordship over all the cosmos can only come from revelation and not rationalism. I can only pray that those who doubt are if fact called and then chosen to be part of the family of God. One should not think but pray and seek. Looking at wonder of creation only brings me to my knees. There is no other explaination of this kind of love and beauty.

Eager,

Apply the Five F rule and then proceed:

First Find then Fix the Flaws in the Foundations of Religions.

You have seen my synopsis of said flaws. Realism, history and archeology have isolated said flaws. Fix them as fits your conscience.

Hey BGONE - You sure know how to get yourself some prayer covering!!!! Can't wait to see you after the revelation comes. I was you once.

You at least have the courage to speak.

We will be seeing each other.

GK Chesterton

"Whatever happened to the notion of a God let loose in the world - who defies our attempts to tame Him or put him in a box that fits our worldview categories?

"Psalm 29 comes to mind."

Doesn't Job 38 - 42:6 also, whether it's history or superb literature, capture the same glory as it details Job's fearful worship:

1 The LORD said to Job:

2 "Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!"

3 Then Job answered the LORD :

4 "I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?
I put my hand over my mouth.

5 I spoke once, but I have no answer—
twice, but I will say no more."?

I thrill also to Isaiah 40!

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated

Filtering through your a to z list of affirmations, I find some positives although there are far more negations. We may be in agreement with some of these positives if we mean the same things by the words used.

a) Jesus lived and was crucified. (See a)
b) Christ’s teachings serve as the basis of living the good life. (See b)
c) Beliefs should have scriptural foundations. (See i)
d) Adult acceptance of the Jesus’ way of life and belief in God is affirmed at Confirmation. (See q)
e) Substituting God in place of any reference to the Holy Spirit or the Son of God works quite well.
(See s)
f) Faith may heal. (See w)
g) Jesus was a healer. (See x)
h) Acts of contrition and repentance and life style changes precede soul cleansing.

Let’s see if I can construct some statement from this, however incomplete, that might suggest some
affirmative agreement between us.

“There is a good life to be lived. Somehow that way is connected to Jesus Christ and requires adult acceptance. Included within this acceptance is a recognition of lapses which necessitate repentance and the adoption of life style changes.

“Jesus lived and was crucified. He was a healer. The Holy Spirit and Jesus (Son of God?) may each
be called God. Belief in God must be accepted. Faith can bring healing. Beliefs require scriptural foundations.”

I can’t say that this credo would attract my commitment, but perhaps it lends us some point of
mutual accord? Do you think that it would attract anyone starved for meaning and love?

Whatever happened to the notion of a God let loose in the world - who defies our attempts to tame Him or put him in a box that fits our worldview categories?

Psalm 29 comes to mind.

Eager,

My Religious Beliefs as per Rational Reality/Common Sense via Crossan, Borg, Schillebeeckx, Somerville, etc.

a. Jesus lived and was crucified but did not bodily rise from the dead.

b. Christ’s teachings serve the basis for living a good life but there are other teachings of comparable strengths.

c. Heaven is a Spirit State i.e. no bodies to include glorified bodies allowed.

d. The Ascension and Assumption therefore did not take place.

e. Christ’s Spirit resides in Heaven (if there is one) with all the souls of deceased good people of any religion or of no religion therefore there will be no second coming.

f. Adam and Eve are myths making original sin mythological and Baptism symbolic.

g. There was therefore no Immaculate Conception.

h. Happiness in Heaven (if it exists) is not a gradient but is dependent on the number of souls present.

i. Purgatory is possible but has no Scriptural foundation.

j. Hell is possible but would God tolerate Satan spirits and contaminated souls?

k. God does not know the future.

l. Predestination should not be a word.

m. Canonization of the likes of Pio and Juan eliminates any consideration of papal infallibility.

n. Exodus should not be a word.

o. ditto for the Christmas manger.

p. The Eucharist is a fantastic spirit symbol of our thanksgiving but body and blood do not exist there. Continued crucifixion of Christ is ridiculous.

q. Confirmation is only symbolic of our adult acceptance of the Jesus' way of life and our belief in God.

r. Dividing God into three parts violates the first Commandment.

s. Substituting God in place of any reference to the Holy Spirit or the Son of God works quite well.

t. Holy Orders is relevant but not complete without access by females and married members.

u. Religions are slowly converging. as per James Somerville, Philosophy Professor Emeritus, Xavier University

v. As per Somerville, “Religion is our vehicle for the journey. Once arrived, it will be left at the door” i.e. there is no religion in Heaven.

w. Lourdes et al as per Crossan prove faith heals but Mary plays no part. Miracles are equally probable anywhere on earth but all miracles are limited in scope and limited to very few of any faith.

x. As per Crossan, Westar E-discussion group, 6/14/03, message 20213, “I said that There was hardly a single miracle I was sure of as an historical event even though I was absolutely sure that Jesus was a healer.

y. An act of contrition with repentance and life style changes by anyone of any faith or even no faith should be sufficient for soul cleansing.

z. The Old Testament is so full of untruths and embellishments, its content is of little historical relevance.

Added references for review/perusal:

19. An on-line copy of Professor Crossan's book, The Historical Jesus Thehttp://books.google.com/books?id=AsPHR4-7Wc8C&pg=PA444&lpg=PA444&dq=%22place+of+life%22+%22the+historical+jesus%22+crossan&source=web&ots=8mVx_1M6g4&sig=XFqT8S1coAT18xq8Qwt1vMcMjW0
(Check Google Books for books written by other NT exegetes)

20. K.C. Hanson and D. E. Oakman, Palestine in the Time of Jesus, Fortress Press, 1998.
An excerpt:

"Stories circulated to the effect that Alexander of Macedonia was not only the son of Philip II, but also of the god Zeus-Ammon (Plutarch, Parallel Lives, "Alexander" 2.1-3.2); Plato was the son of Ariston and the god Apollo (Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers 3.1-2), and Augustus was the son of Octavius as well as the god Apollo (Suetonius, Lives o f the Caesars 2.4.1-7). The extraordinary character of these elites reputedly stemmed from both their divine origins and their kingroups.

Their kin-groups provided one form of legitimation-political right to the throne and/or social status (thus the importance of Joseph in Matthew's genealogy). Their divine procreation provided another: their honor was divinely ascribed, and their greatness as leaders derived from divine paternity."

Concerned Christian Now Liberated

"Your assignment if you choose such a path:"

You've side-stepped my questions by throwing a library full of secondary sources at me. My hope was that we might have a dialogue based upon your affirmation of your "Christian faith".

Any chance that you might summarize your firmly-held positive beliefs?

Added references for review/perusal:

17. NT and beyond, time line:

http://www.pbs.org/empires/peterandpaul/history/timeline/

18. St. Paul's Time line with discussion of important events:

http://www.harvardhouse.com/prophetictech/new/pauls_life.htm

Added references for review/perusal:

15. Early Jewish Writings- Josephus and his books by title with the complete translated work in English :http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/josephus.html

16. Luke and Josephus- was there a connection?

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/lukeandjosephus.html

Added references for review/perusal:

13. JD Crossan's scriptural references for his book the Historical Jesus separted into time periods: http://www.faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan1.rtf

14. JD Crossan's conclusions about the authencity of most of the NT based on the above plus the conclusions of other NT exegetes in the last 200 years:

http://www.faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan2.rtf

Added references for review/perusal:

11. The Jesus Seminarians and their search for NT authenticity:

http://www.mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/seminar.html#Criteria

12. The New Testament Gateway - Internet NT sources : http://www.ntgateway.com/

Added references for review/perusal:

9. The Greek New Testament: http://www.laparola.net/greco/

10. Diseases in the Bible:

http://etd.unisa.ac.za/ETD-db/theses/available/etd-08022006-125807/unrestricted/02
dissertation.pdf

Added references for review/perusal:

7. Josephus on Jesus by Paul Maier:
http://www.mtio.com/articles/bissar24.htm

8. The Journal of Higher Criticism with links to articles on the Historical Jesus:

http://www.mtio.com/articles/bissar24.htm

Added references for review/perusal:

5. The Jesus Database- http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php?title=Jesus_Database

6. Jesus Database with the example of Supper and Eucharist:

http://www.faithfutures.org/JDB/jdb016.html

Added reading/review/perusal about first century Palestine:

3. Health and Healing in the Land of Israel By Joe Zias

http://www.joezias.com/HealthHealingLandIsrael.htm

4. The Gnostic Jesus
(Part One in a Two-Part Series on Ancient and Modern Gnosticism)
by Douglas Groothuis: http://www.equip.org/free/DG040-1.htm

Eager,

It is all about determining what really happened in first century Palestine. Professors Crossan, Borg, and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists, and many others to include members of the Jesus Seminar have reviewed the scriptural and related texts from the this time period and have found many flaws and lack of attestations. I suggest you read the same texts followed by reading the books written by the NT exegetes in the past two hundred years said authors going into great detail in separating Christian fact from Christian fiction and embellishments.

Add to that some common sense and the Christian reality will become obvious.

Your assignment if you choose such a path:

1. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/

2. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

Since the On Faith moderators only allow two website references per commentary, I will add addional references for you to peruse in the next five or six separate listings.

Such a very Catholic viewpoint.

Did you ever consider that Jesus' rising from the dead was actually an unconscious injured man briefly reviving? You say science shouldn't prevent people from believing. But it should make people wiser about how the world really works.

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated

The intensity and passion with which you make postings to this blog, while astonishing, perhaps even enviable, are puzzling to this reader. What is your point?

Are you committed to a post-modern outlook that requires you to deconstruct every affirmation
except the assertion of your unique, but ephemeral presence among 6.3 billion other ‘unique presences’ on a globe within a universe, possibly 5 billion years old and certainly of unimaginable size?

But then you seem to affirm Dominic Crossan and the Jesus Seminar. Maybe you are seeking to
proclaim some sort of faith after all. Your title suggests that you are a “Christian”, indeed a “Concerned” one and one who is “Now Liberated”.

The fervor of your posts attest to the magnitude of your concern. That concern appears to be to
liberate us all from orthodox Christianity, particularly from the historic claim that Jesus of Nazareth, after his crucifixion and death, rose from the dead in a recognizable, but differently constituted, body, leaving the tomb empty.

But what exactly is your “point of view”? Do you believe as historical fact the claims of Reimarus
that “After Jesus' failure and death, his disciples stole his body and declared his resurrection in order to maintain their financial security and ensure themselves some standing.” ?

If you really do suspect this to be creditable, can you then construct on this fraudulent foundation the revisionist “Christian faith” of Professor Crossan who values the “empowerment that some people experienced in Lower Galilee at the start of the first century in and through Jesus” and that “in and through Jesus is now available to any person in any place at any time who finds God in and through the same Jesus. Empty tomb stories and physical appearance stories are perfectly valid parables expressing that faith, akin in their way to the Good Samaritan story. They are, for me, parables of the resurrection, not the resurrection itself. Resurrection as the continuing experience of God’s presence in and through Jesus is the heart of Christian faith.”

What is this god Crossan posits? If this god is the one and only creator god, what is its
relationship to this Jesus from the first century in Lower Galilee? What historic evidence lends credence to the claim that this Jesus was so related? If Jesus merely generated “empowerment”, why is a god necessary at all? Some people are “empowered” by training dogs.

Where does this all leave us? Are we back to affirming our own spark simply by talking louder and longer than anyone else around?

I want to live forever or at least feel like something I heard in a Woody Allen movie,
"I'm not scared of dieing, I just don't want to be there when it happens".

I've never seen a ghost or spirit. When I started becoming a skeptic in middle/high school, with what I thought was great bravery at the time, several times I called out the dead, God, and the devil but no one ever appeared. Of course, why would this matter to someone who has seen the dead or God. In college, I had a
"fundementalist" Christian roommate who swore to me that he had talked to God. How could I disprove him or he prove it to me? In the end, we became friends, accepted each other's opinions, and stayed off the subject.

I think some people don't like that they are ordinary and make this extraordinary claim of having talked to God or the dead. I am certain that some are schizoprenic.

Of course, other people I love and respect are convinced that they have heard from the
dead. My father died a year and half ago. It is a comfort to me when he visits my dreams. I think in my dream, "You're not dead." And we have always have had a good conversation. But these are my night time dreams. My mother is convinced that my father is communicating with her through objects she finds in the house. I told her that if that is comforting to her, it is a good thing. She told me if she finds
anything while I'm visiting, she will think her skeptic son planted it.

I remember I was visiting my in-laws who are staunch Catholics. There was a meteor shower
early one morning and I couldn't convince anyone to get up with me and watch it. It exceeded my expectations and I had never seen anything like it before. Meteors went accross the sky at least at one per second, sometimes many streaked across the sky at once. Some had what I thought were yellow or red tails. Some broke into two.
In my excitement the next morning I recalled this and several said, "I don't believe that". So it goes...

I try to keep my mind wide open to any experience. I hear R. Buckminster Fuller saying:

Historically long perspective,
Suggests it as possible,
That many of the intrigunig,
Yet Ineffable experiences,
Which humanity thus far,
Has been unable to explain,
And, therefore, treats with on supersitiously,
May embrace phenomena,
Which in due course,
Could turn out to be complexes,
Of physically demonstrable realities,
Which might even manifest,
Generalized principles of Universe.

I think the myths of our religious texts use metaphors to help us deal with
this troubling subject. I interpret some of them to mean that I was made by my father and mother and I am my father and mother. My children are my wife and me and our parents. We carry on in that way. The actions of my father live on in the people he touched. And our actions happened in the scope of time, those actions happened
and exist forever.

In order for me to believe in the afterlife, I will need it to be physically demonstrable
to me personally (and if necessary so that I am not tricked, with the presence of skepical
scientists and magicians) or to be codified in scientific language.

In the end, I love this life and these questions. Thank you, god, the organized laws of the Universe that allow me to have such an absurd situation here on Earth.

Would some learned christian
scholar answer for ne the
following question. If jesus
rose physically from the dead
and presently resides physically
at the right hand of god, then
what are the celestial
coordinates of his heavenly home? ?

If this info is not available
then give the approximate area
in the heavens (the constellation
will do) so that we may go to
Google maps and conduct our own
search ! ! !

Rev Dr Knowinso H. Jones

In other words, magic is slush, but magical thinking is not. Yeah, right.

"If you re-read Wright's paragraph on this, (see below) it sounds to me that he would agree with you that this is anecdotal evidence. For Wright, the evidence of life after death rests in the scriptures themselves. The other things are simply "hints.""

Yes, this is a fair point. I'm sorry for overlooking it. As a nonbeliever, I don't assign any evidentiary weight to the Bible, so for me Wright's passage doesn't contain any evidence other than anecdotal evidence. But for believers, the Bible counts for something.

One might ask why I don't give any evidentiary weight to the Bible. Of course, there's an age-old debate about the Bible, and my arguments against it aren't in any way different from those brought by other people, so I'll just point to Bertrand Russel's "Why I Am Not A Christian". That essay (available online) contains a decent summary of arguments against the Bible, as does wikipedia's entry on the existence of God.

Shawnee,

Professor Crossan is an appropriate challenger to Professor Wright (and Henry VIII's) thinking. Ditto for most of the NT exegetes listed at http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

Fascinating how some nonbelievers become so enraged over suggestions that there is a bodily resurrection, afterlife, and so on.

N.T. Wright is anything but a sloppy thinker. If you want to tangle with him, you'll have to do better than offer a barstool rant.

GK Christensen:

"That's wonderful that people are charitable. Is that confined to those who faith that hell is for real?

How much of the tax deductible take do you suppose all churches as a class actually use for helping those not capable of helping themselves? How much goes into stained glass windows or just plain crystal cathedrals? How much goes to "spreading the faith" going after new suckers,, sorry meant to say new people of faith. I'll wager that if you knew, (it's kept secret) you would never describe a church as a charitable organization, unless you were dishonest of course. The Marines "collect toys for tots" for underprivileged children and they certainly don't advertise themselves to be a charitable organization."

First of all, it's Chesterton, not Christensen. Sorry, but what are you trying to say in your first question?

Secondly, most churches give at least 60% of their budget to outreach, missions, and programs for the purpose of transforming their communities and world. (No secret there!) Of course, for some churches, like the one I read about near my community, they gave 1 million dollars to the Sudan relief effort (that's 1 million in addition to the 60% they already give to outreach.) My church as well as many others hold an annual meeting that has the figures. We'll even give you a microphone so you can tell us how you really feel.

And believe it or not, we do all of this without threatening people with hell. That hoax website doesn't seem to help either.

GK Christensen:

That's wonderful that people are charitable. Is that confined to those who faith that hell is for real?

How much of the tax deductible take do you suppose all churches as a class actually use for helping those not capable of helping themselves? How much goes into stained glass windows or just plain crystal cathedrals? How much goes to "spreading the faith" going after new suckers,, sorry meant to say new people of faith. I'll wager that if you knew, (it's kept secret) you would never describe a church as a charitable organization, unless you were dishonest of course. The Marines "collect toys for tots" for underprivileged children and they certainly don't advertise themselves to be a charitable organization.

Hell has a history. Religion has a history. They both have the same history. Without hell there is nothing to threaten people, no need for a savior, a Christ to get the righteous past the demon on the nebol bridge. They're thinking Jesus will forgive them when they should be worried about those they harm retaliating in the next world. Hell is where the murdered are kept to prevent them from retaliating in the next life. Wistful thinking.

Religion's not charitable. It's criminal, terrorism for there is no terror threat greater than hell.

"Wright, like almost everyone else who argues that life after death exists, proves his argument by saying that he had a friend who talked with someone who had died. This is anecdotal evidence, which cannot be as persuasive as scientific evidence. Many people have friends who believe things, but that doesn't mean the things are true."

If you re-read Wright's paragraph on this, (see below) it sounds to me that he would agree with you that this is anecdotal evidence. For Wright, the evidence of life after death rests in the scriptures themselves. The other things are simply "hints."

Dr. Wright's Paragraph:
"For many people, this is a hint, a nudge, that there is indeed 'something beyond'. But for Christians such experiences shouldn't be the decisive factor. And, after all, the genuine Christian hope -- of the whole world remade, reborn (Romans 8, Revelation 21, etc etc) -- indicates that God is passionately interested in THIS world, this cosmos of space, time and matter which he is redeeming, rather than encouraging us to discount it in pursuit of a nebulous afterlife which is as nothing compared to what we're promised after that again."

"The physical Resurrection (meaning a resuscitated corpse returning to life...did not take place."

This is totally NOT what Dr. Wright and orthodox Christianity teaches. Resurrection and resuscitation are two very different things. Resurrection in the 1st century meant that a dead person would be given a new transformed physical body that is not subject to sin and death. Of course, no Jew believed that this had actually happened but many Jews believed that sometime in the future, God would usher in a new age in which all of the faithful would experience a resurrection and be given new bodies in God's restored creation. What's unique about the New Testament is that they were announcing the good news that through Jesus, this had already happened (in the person of Jesus) and that those who confess Jesus as Lord would also be given new resurrected bodies when Jesus returns a 2nd time.

And yes, I know that there are bible scholars who like to argue that the term, resurrection was really just a nice metaphor that Jesus was still alive in their memories and that the afterlife is really all about our disembodies souls going off to heaven, but that just doesn't square at all with the 1st century understanding of the word which if I'm not mistaken is why Bishop Wright goes to all the trouble to place these posts on boards like this.

Wright, like almost everyone else who argues that life after death exists, proves his argument by saying that he had a friend who talked with someone who had died. This is anecdotal evidence, which cannot be as persuasive as scientific evidence. Many people have friends who believe things, but that doesn't mean the things are true.

If dead people really visited us, wouldn't science be able to detect these people? We have instruments that can detect faint variations in electromagnetic fields and other phenomenon that are invisible to the human eye. Wouldn't we be able to create instruments that can also detect ghosts?

"The overwhelming majority of the human race throughout history has believed in the afterlife."

The overwhelming majority of the human race also believed that the earth was the center of the universe. How is this different from the life after death belief? People can be wrong about things.

"It is entirely possible that our current fascination with 'science' has had an unanticipated consequence of distancing us from ourselves, as much as our industrialized lifestyle distances us in our daily lives from nature."

Our current "fascination with science" has led to advances in technology and medicine, just to name two fields, that have resulted in an unprecedented opportunity for huge segments of the world's population to live in health and comfort. How has this distanced us from ourselves?

And as for being distanced from nature, perhaps on a personal level this is the case, but overall, as a species we understand more about how nature functions now than back when religion ruled the earth.

Honestly, I wish everyone who thinks science is bad would just move back to the sort of lifestyle our ancestors lived when institutions such as the church and the monarchy were the self-appointed arbiters of rightness and truth. They take full advantage of all the things science has brought us while simultaneously arguing that science is bad. I'm tired of having them piggy-back on enlightenment.

I see the topic has taken a slight turn to the phyiscal resurrection and ascension of Jesus into the afterlife of Heaven.

Again, I note what is being taught in some major Catholic university graduate theology classes:

"Heaven is a Spirit state or spiritual reality of union with God in love, without earthly -- earth bound distractions. (see also
www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PBCINTER.HTM#2
for a synopsis of JPII take on Heaven)

Christ's and Mary's bodies are therefore not in Heaven. For one thing, Paul in 1 Cor 15 speaks of the body of the dead as transformed into a "spiritual body." No one knows exactly what he meant by this term.

Most believe that it to mean that the personal spiritual self that survives death is in continuity with the self we were while living on earth as an embodied person.

The physical Resurrection (meaning a resuscitated corpse returning to life), Ascension (of Jesus' crucified corpse), and Assumption (Mary's
corpse) into heaven did not take place.

The Ascension symbolizes the end of Jesus' earthly ministry and the beginning of the Church.

The Assumption ties Jesus' mission to Pentecost and missionary activity of Jesus' followers The Assumption has
multiple layers of symbolism, some are related to Mary's special role as "Christ bearer" (theotokos). It does not seem fitting that Mary, the body of Jesus' Virgin-Mother (another biblically based symbol found in Luke 1) would
be derived by worms upon her death. Mary's assumption also shows God's positive regard, not only for Christ's male body, but also for female
bodies. Only Luke's Gospel records it."

Amazing how this agrees with Professor Crossan and the Jesus Seminarian's conclusions based on attestations and stratums.

See http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/017_Resurrection_of_Jesus for added details.

"In the epilogue to Who Killed Jesus? (1995:217), Professor Crossan writes:

"The resurrection of Jesus means for me that the human empowerment that some people experienced in Lower Galilee at the start of the first century in and through Jesus is now available to any person in any place at any time who finds God in and through that same Jesus. Empty tomb stories and physical appearance stories are perfectly valid parables expressing that faith, akin in their way to the Good Samaritan story. They are, for me, parables of resurrection not the resurrection itself. Resurrection as the continuing experience of God's presence in and through Jesus is the heart of Christian faith."

Another point of view:

According to Reimarus as referenced in R.B. Stewart in his introduction to the recent book, The Resurrection of Jesus, Crossan and Wright in Dialogue,

"Reimarus (1774-1779) posits that Jesus became sidetracked by embracing a political position, sought to force God's hand and that he died alone deserted by his disciples. What began as a call for repentance ended up as a misguided attempt to usher in the earthly political kingdom of God. After Jesus' failure and death, his disciples stole his body and declared his resurrection in order to maintain their financial security and ensure themselves some standing."

"The history of Christianity, the notion of the road block and the necessity of a savior, a Christ to collect the toll, taxes, tithes is at http://www.hoax-buster.org"

At least in my church anyway, those tithes are buying mosquito nets so that children don't die from malaria in Africa, the school down the streets receives free school supplies for children in need, a school in Iraq can teach children torn by war how to read and write, and a family without medical insurance can now pay for the wife's cancer treatments.

If you are interested in understanding N.T. Wright's position, I strongly recommend you read his book "The Resurrection of the Son of God" (2003). I agree that his position is orthodox and therefore, not new. However, his articulation of the position and interaction with Biblical texts and critical interaction with secondary literature is. I especially liked his survey and analysis of the Greco-Roman world and first century Palestinian Judaism and the way the New Testament interacts with these worlds.

Peace,
Rip

Why bishop shouldn't we see you as an ordinary terrorist threatening people with the fires of hell for not doing what you want? You get your license for the Bible like all other ministers.

Does "God will download our software onto his hardware until he gives us new hardware to run the software again for ourselves" apply to all or just the ones that do what the ministry dictates?

Is God a necessary ingredient in the "download software" scenario? The ancient Egyptians are the first to record that process in writing,, and their writing was picture scripting, pictures were the words. They said that those who did not do as Pharaoh dictated would be fed to a critter they called Eater and eaten completely out of existence.

Which came first, regeneration of the body with "software downloaded from old body" on the nebol bridge that makes life after death possible or the road block and toll gate on the nebol bridge operated by religions, (Jay Hawking to us Yanks)? It's obvious that the concept of more life after this life came well ahead of the notion of all not enjoying it. The road block preventing some form not going on to the next world is the work of criminals, not the pious.

God is a weapon like a stick used by the shepherd to keep the sheep herded to his liking, a power too great for the individual to resist. Hell is a gun held to the heads of children until it become a permanent fixture. We're talking about crime. Religion was founded by criminals and hasn't changed. Jay Hawing is a crime.

The history of Christianity, the notion of the road block and the necessity of a savior, a Christ to collect the toll, taxes, tithes is at http://www.hoax-buster.org

Thank God the Bible is a proved hoax. Otherwise:

Matthew 10:28 (Jesus speaking)
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Matthew 18:9 (Jesus speaking)
"And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."

Missing as eye here, miss eye in next life. Crazy Horse had the same concept of hell of the first type, the forever wound that removed the possibility of coming back to life after death.

Terrorism is all about imagination induced "notion" fear.

Dr. Wright's post is nothing more than a recapitulation of orthodox Christianity. What he is saying is not new (at least to those who hold to the ancient creeds and liturgy.) Check out the Apostles' Creed and the last phrase in the Gloria Patri. And of course, the biblical narrative of a God who is seeking to redeem the world (space and time.)

Plato's philosophy of a soul/body split may be ruling the day. But that's not orthodox Christianity.

Marcus Borg and Tom Wright both "get it" in terms of truthful telling Christian theology. I personally place my hope of eternal destiny in the faith they articulate. This entire discussion is refreshingly disruptive of conventional thinking across the spectrum of "eternity" and "eternal life" views – and experiences of communication with those who are not here physically with us.

I agree with both Marcus Borg and Tom Wright. I believe they both have it right in terms of understanding Christian theology correctly, and I place my faith and "destiny" in the hope they both articulate. This entire discussing is provocative and refreshingly disruptive of conventionality.

I saw my Grandmother boarding a tour bus in Rome. I saw my sister-in-law's face in a photo of a cloud. It really looked like her. Other people thought so too. I felt the distinct presence of a friend who had died suddenly of a heart attack. I'd just come across his business card.

But I guess I'm just too reasonable, I figured it was my imagination playing tricks on me. Now I see that even NT Wright, who apparently does believe in the resurrection, thinks people shouldn't consider what I saw as a decisive factor for the existence of an afterlife.

I'm confused.

File in the "fairy tales are true, it can happen to you" folder.

Now, get back to reality.

The overwhelming majority of the human race throughout history has believed in the afterlife. I find it extremely hard (for myself) to casually discount this fact when considering this question. It is entirely possible that our current fascination with "science" has had an unanticipated consequence of distancing us from ourselves, as much as our industrialized lifestyle distances us in our daily lives from nature. I see no reason to ignore the testimony of the builders of the Rollright Stones, or of the author of Beowulf (to take examples at random), simply because they knew less about the Solar System or whatever than we do today. You have to look inside yourself for an answer to whether or not our being survives our bodies' death. I suspect it does.

Are you serious? Why would an eternal, omipotent, omnipresent God want or need a human body? Of what use is a human body to anyone not living on this planet which has after all designed the body to live on this Earth? Hardware, software; your metaphors are ridiculus, your thinking nonexistant; your cultural insights are nonsense!

It is good to dream. It helps get through the tough times.

Along with Professor Borg, Professor Crossan is another in the "don't know and don't care" about the afterlife club. And both professors have reviewed the scriptural texts thoroughly putting them in a class above most of us.

With respect to Hell:

Father Edward Schillebeeckx, the famous contemporary theologian, has a different take on Hell. He reasons that the Singularity does not tolerate imperfection in its spiritual realm. Therefore, any soul dying in mortal sin will simply disappear since Hell, the imperfect state, does not exist.

And no the ghost of Henry VIII has never visited me.