On Faith Panelists Blog: Secularists Will Have to Deal With It

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Dear Bishop Wright

From beautiful, warm and sunny Sydney in Australia, Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year 2008!

Soja John Thaikattil

Bishop Wright -- surely you've heard by now that the English Archbishop of Canterbury has said that the 3 kings and the star of bethlemhem are legend and that belief in the virgin birth isn't needed for church membership. It's in the Times of London, http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3076008.ece. Also the Telegraph and the Sydney Morning Herald. it's even posted on the Archbishop's website!

I haven't seen it reported in any US papers yet. Maybe they're saving it for Christmas eve. Or maybe editors think it's too hot for Americans to handle because we're so much more religious than the brits and the aussies.

hi drew- im a muslim and fully support any christians who want to celebrate christmas however they do it-

i guess everyone has stories of different abuses by the majority when they are in the minority-
i have bucketfuls-

it doesnt give me any desire to take the joy from people who enjoy their holiday-

im heartened by other peoples joys.

Happy Yuletide,

Our Creator has begun the lengthening of daylight and there isn't a thing Christians, Mormons, Jews or anyone else can do about it. Pagan prayers and offerings will rule as they have from time immemorial.

No amount of Christian, Muslim, or Jewish prayers prevailed over our celebrations last night or the Sun rise this morning.

What fun!! Presents! Santa Claus! Whoops, did we pagans co-opt a Christian word - Saint Nick?? - just a translation of Julenissen? - hmmmm - no matter - Pagan and Christian children world-wide are waiting to hear the jingle bells of Dasher,Dancer, Comet, and the others.

Nicky Boy will just have to deal with it.

Yes, it's hard to really appreciate the Easter Bunny if you haven't really grasped the full theological impact of Santa's Elves.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Christmas IS a "watered down across the board end of the year winter celebration". Where do you think the decorated trees and the mistletoe and the stockings and the virgin birth and the Wise Men and the Star and the candy canes came from in the first place? Why do you think December 25th was choosen in the first place? And folks get bent when you say "Happy Holidays", lol

Go ahead and elect a President who will declare it National Jesus Day. That seems to be where we are headed. But it will still be what it is.

The separation of church and state is a modern era reality which has fed into a world view that faith in God should somehow be swept off to the side.

I'm all for tolerance and respect of different faiths and people who do not proclaim a faith, but to water down Christmas as an "across the board end of the year winter celebration" is quite absurd.

On the other hand, it's my opinion that Christians shoot themselves in the foot when they make Christmas the end all of their faith. The church year has several "feasts" and "holy days" which don't make sense without some understanding and appreciation of the others.

Here's to a liturgical year that celebrates the whole gospel.

Mr Wright;

I've know Muslims who were not happy with Xmas,
but as an atheist I like Xmas,and never knew an atheist who didn't.
You seem to just make things up about atheists,and then ridicule them for being how you describe them.
That's just plain lying,Mr Wright.(Mr Wrong would be more appropriate).
The clothes have no emperor. There is no god underneath all those fancy clothes.Religion is all clothes,and no emperor.
This I really believe.

To call secularism old fashioned is ridiculous.
It is religion which is old fashioned,believing the ancient nonsense that our cavemen ancestors dreamed up about Gods and angels and other supernatural krappe.
Religionists try everywhichway to hurl rocks at the number one enemy;those of us who say there are no gods,except in the imagination.
Nothing is as old fashioned as ancient superstition,which predates rational thought by thousands of years.

As a "secularist" I am not offended by either Christmas, nor sincere, tolerant religous belief. I don't find a sincere holiday greeting nor a religous display offensive. The problem is that those who want to institute school prayer, build religous displays on public property, display religous documents in public facilities, and disparage people with other world views and belief systems have a hidden attitude and agenda: the belief that everyone else is wrong (and causing all the problems) and the desire to impose their belief system and practices on others. I never speak about my religous beliefs to anyone outside of my family due to the simple fact that, being an aethist, I know for a fact that I will be shunned and discriminated against. I know this because it has happened. I have been shunned and threatened with violence in the past by people supposedly devout in their peaceful religous beliefs. I have been discriminated against at work. This appears to be a manifestation of the loving diety that they profess to worship. The people that did this are the same people that have failed to read the first article of the Bill of Rights that states that there will be no state religion and that the free excercise thereof will not be restricted. For anyone of any belief not just Christians. We live in a country with a Christian majority, not a Christian country. Up to a third of the population has no religous belief which puts secularism ahead of Catholicism- the coutries largest religous belief. Yet many of the most devout feel that Christianity should be the state religion. In order to accomplish this task they push such issues as school prayer, display of religous documents in public buildings, and religous displays on public property. No, it is not a conspiracy, but it is not nearly as innocent as they claim. I am a also a Libertarian. Please, if you wish to pray, post a copy of the Ten Commandments, or put up a religous display do it on your own property, at your own expense and please turn off the lights at a reasonable hour. I won't be offended and will be happy to wish you a Happy Holidays!

As a "secularist" I am not offended by either Christmas, nor sincere, tolerant religous belief. I don't find a sincere holiday greeting nor a religous display offensive. The problem is that those who want to institute school prayer, build religous displays on public property, display religous documents in public facilities, and disparage people with other world views and belief systems have a hidden attitude and agenda: the belief that everyone else is wrong (and causing all the problems) and the desire to impose their belief system and practices on others. I never speak about my religous beliefs to anyone outside of my family due to the simple fact that, being an aethist, I know for a fact that I will be shunned and discriminated against. I know this because it has happened. I have been shunned and threatened with violence in the past by people supposedly devout in their peaceful religous beliefs. I have been discriminated against at work. This appears to be a manifestation of the loving diety that they profess to worship. The people that did this are the same people that have failed to read the first article of the Bill of Rights that states that there will be no state religion and that the free excercise thereof will not be restricted. For anyone of any belief not just Christians. We live in a country with a Christian majority, not a Christian country. Up to a third of the population has no religous belief which puts Secularism ahead of Catholicism- the coutries largest religous belief. Yet many of the most devout feel that Christianity should be the state religion. In order to accomplish this task they push such issues as school prayer, display of religous documents in public buildings, and religous displays on public property. No, it is not a conspiracy, but it is not nearly as innocent as they claim. I am a also a Libertarian. Please, if you wish to pray, post a copy of the Ten Commandments, or put up a religous display do it on your own property, at your own expense and please turn off the lights at a reasonable hour. I won't be offended and will be happy to wish you a Happy Holidays!

Samhain, in the Celtic languages, merely means "summer's end." Which is what the festival is all about. The turning of the Wheel of the Year and the coming of winter. No pumpkin god(s).

If we consider nativity scenes as just more fictional and/or embellished accounts about good people and myths (e.g. Santa Clause and his elves, Gabriel, Moroni et al), "do no harm to such scenes" or to the associated commentary. Even pagans have their fictional accounts to celebrate on their hallowed days of Halloween etc.

from: http://members.tripod.com/~TaraMiller/halloween.html

"Halloween: The Pagan Festival of Samhain

Paganism, and Druidry especially, recognise eight feasts durring the yearly cycle or the Eight Fold Year. These celebrations are based upon a deep and mysterious connection between our individual lives and the source of this planet’s life. Like any other religious ocassion, these Pagan holidays are marked by special observances.

The most popular festival, in ancient times as well as modern Pagan society, is Samhain or Samhuinn, (pronounced Sou’in) the Celtic new year.

Halloween Myths

1) The pumpkin God, Samhain ( pronounced Sam’hane) DOES NOT exist.

2) Pagans DO NOT sacrifice babies or animals on Halloween. The Wiccan Rede states "Do what thou wilst, but harm none."

3) Pagans DO NOT worship the Devil or Satan on Halloween.

4) PAGANS ARE NOT SATANISTS.

These myths have been perpetuated by people who have seen too many horror movies and the Christian idea of horrific and mythical forms of Satanism. "

And contemporary Wiccans note: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween

"Also, some Wiccans feel that the tradition is offensive to "real witches" for promoting stereotypical caricatures of "wicked witches".[45] However, other Neopagans, perhaps most of them, see it as a harmless holiday in which some of the old traditions are celebrated by the mainstream culture, albeit in a different manner."

I don't which secularists you're talking about, but I'm an atheist and I'm not offended at all when Christians celebrate Christmas. Hell, I celebrate Christmas myself (along with Winter Solstice), because Christmas has become a secular holiday for me.

And I'm not offended if someone says Merry Christmas to me, because it's just a holiday and there's nothing wrong with anyone hoping I have a nice day. But I am offended if Bill O'Reilly and his ilk say Merry Christmas just to irk people who don't celebrate it.

What I really don't get is being offended when someone says Happy Holidays. What's offensive about being inclusive?

I find it interesting how many people in American society love the "idea" of Christmas and at the same time either refute the biblical story of Christmas or ignore it altogether.

Two years ago, a church not too far from where I live, ended up raising close to 1 million dollars to help alleviate the tremendous suffering in Darfur. These folks love more than just the "idea" of Christmas. There must be something to this Christmas story afterall.

Happy Holy Days.

I find it interesting how many people in American society love the "idea" of Christmas and at the same time either refute the biblical story of Christmas or ignore it altogether.

Two years ago, a church not too far from where I live, ended up raising close to 1 million dollars to help alleviate the tremendous suffering in Darfur. These folks love more than just the "idea" of Christmas. There must be something to this Christmas story afterall.

Happy Holy Days.

Careful, Terra, they'll be believing the goat-leggings bit, next. :)

I love Christmas...I love Yule, I celebrate them both. First is Yule with the secret Mother Berta gifts...burning the Yule log, sing a few Yule songs, drink some wassil...and eat alot.

You better watch out when winter comes nigh
You better not doubt, I'm telling you why,
Mother Berta's coming to town.

She carries a sack made out of a skin
She dumps the toys out and stuffs the kids in.
Mother Berta's coming to town.

She rides on Master Skeggi
A goat whose back is strong
Her beard is grey and scraggly
And her tail is ten feet long!

With six or eight horns, a moustache or two
Make a mistake, she's coming for YOU!
Mother Berta's coming to town.

She know with whom you're sleeping
She knows with whom you wake
She knows each thought you're thinking
So don't THINK for Goddess' sake!

So when the winds howl way up in the sky
Listen as she and Skeggi pass by
Mother Berta's coming,
Mother Berta's coming,
Mother Berta's coming to town!

Then with family and friends on Christmas eve. This whole season is full of celebrations for most cultures...The Christians don't own it, neither do we. But really Christians...stop believeing the hype that we care one wit whether you all say Merry Christmas or not. I say Happy Holidays, not because I hate Christmas, but I realize that Yule is not what everyone celebrates, nither is Christmas. Respecting all holidays is not hateing Christmas, it's being mature...some Christians need to try it, like Bill O'Reilly.

Oh and MERRY CHRISTMAS...

"Which celebration did the christians co-opt from the Hindus? the Muslims?"

I dunno, 'Cool Yule,' ....maybe you should look to the pre-Christian people the Christians took the name 'Yule' from, for starters, about the time when the days start getting longer.

'Yule' means, 'Wheel.' As in Wheel of The Year.
'Yule Tree' and Yule Log' as in 'World Tree.'

You could look there.

That might be a start.

In the words of the Sisters of Mercy,

"Some say prayers....
Well I say mine."

Blessed be. :) And you're welcome to all the Pagan trappings of the holiday. :)

Nick, Please help Josev find his essay.

Old fashioned Secularists? Was that nice?

In any case:

Help me out on this one:
Which celebration did the christians co-opt from the Hindus? the Muslims?

Why would you want to celebrate a birthday on the day that isn't the person's birthday? Must be a Brit thing. Just celebrate when it feels good. Do Christians troop the colors?

Do Christians believe in Santa Claus and his Elf helpers? How 'bout Christian children? Do they believe in Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer?

Oh BTW Have you ever tried prayer? Did it work for you?

Well, you may pray as diligently as you can; but, my Creator is going to cause the days to become longer.

It is going to happen in just a few days and there is NOTHING you or any other idiot can do about it.

Cool Yule

Is there some way to report Jozevz?

He's obviously had too much egg nog

Spot on. Furthermore, as our societies become increasingly culturally diverse, I'd like for us to get involved with all voices in the celebration of life. And, if that means a creche at the court house and a menorah at the post office and a happy Bhudda at the police station --or any representation of any belief at any site, so be it. Let's all get down and boogy to the music of multi-cultural song.

America in particular is still far too provencial. Anyone who has travelled abroad knows what a joy it is to immerse oneself in the fantastic flavors of foreign fare.

Well, I'm not disputing any of that, Anonymous, not that I'm going to diagnose over the Net, ...it's just that it appears he's taken to using nasty words lately, and apparently thinks that the filters are 'stealing' his words, and he'll sue and all that.

Could be a number of conditions, really, come to that, but as a general rule I don't go there.

Paganplace - if only that were true. Paranoid
schizophrenia is the happy diagnosis. The postings are classic in every dimension. A very smart man with bad chemistry.

It's Haldol time but the meds are missing -

I think JJ is freaked out about the fact that now that he's probably learned to *spell* the slur-words he's taken to using in recent months, they are being caught by the filters.

Poor guy.

I want to hear more about this "myth (that Christianity would die out by the end of the 20th Century)." I've been an atheist for over 40 years, and I've never heard of this myth. I've never heard any "secularist" of any stripe say any such thing. Where did this come from? Did you make it up? Does it give you a superior feeling?

Kindly refrain from putting words in my mouth.

Folks - please do something about the schitzo poster that has taken control of all of these On Faith threads.

This meltdown has been coming for some time.

Wow that's alot of copy and paste.

Secularists don't have anything against Christmas. Celebrate it, even though it's a bs holiday that worships consumerism more than any God. 900 billion trade deficit, and all we can do is give more money to China. Shame on us.

I'm an atheist, and sick of this PC stuff. I think that they should have the right to celebrate Christmas, but I don't want to see any commandments in a public court or be told by Mitt Romney that "freedom requires religion."

If anything, we should be wary of Muslims, who don't hold the same respect of secularism as progressives.

Where is my Essay [comment]????????

Please post me 'Comment' or let me know you kept it forever!???

Where is my Comment??

Please 'POST" me comment! And The Others whom you suckered sally, ET AL!

rEMOVE YOUR "bot' FROM ME COMPUTER(S) & oTHER(S) IN 24 HOURS, OR ELSE THIS WILL HAPPEN EVERY DAY 365 DAYS PER YEAR!

Notice: You have not met US (me) half way, now you will be suid in FEDERAL COURT a.s.a.p.! bye parasites!

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