Don’t Teach Religion, Teach About Religion

Wow.

Nice work on the massacre, loving God.

Jihadist,

There is no need to find scientific evidence of "Sun/brain fried" scribes in any religion. The books they wrote are sufficient proof of their swollen, heat-stroked brains that concocted "wishy-wash" hallucinations about "pretty wingy thingies", talking bushes/clouds, global floods, flying chariots, heavenly virgins, glorified suicides and apparitions floating through walls.

Victoria,

Please post a reference about the new Islam supporting your statement:

"by the way lib- are you aware that the madressahs of pakistan have just done a major overhaul of their curriculum- UK and USA approved?

any material deemed prejudiced or hatemongering has been removed.
so far 90% of the madressahs are in full compliance-"

Hello Ross,

Ross : Christians cannot send anyone to hell and unlike the unfortunate non muslims languishing in prisons for blasphemy against islam the western nations ensure you are protected even if you blaspheme Christianity or any other religion.

Me: Well, I don't blaspheme against Christianity that I know nor other Muslims creating "Piss Christ". Sure Christians, can send Muslims to hell, just rain nukes and cluster bombs on us. We are quite useful for real tests on the effectiveness of those weapons. And don't forget to try about carpet bombing and smart bombing too. Still needs to be improved.

Ross : This is not just for you but for the whole world to learn about this evil cult.

Me: I really hope you do that, and don't forget, in your show and tell, have a beard, put on a turban, have a Qur'an in one and and the sword of Islam in another hand, and scream, "Give me liberty of give me death", "Give me my land back of give me death", "Get your troops out of my country of give me death". And, to remind that for these mujahideens, it is preferable the deaths be to their enemies.

And oh, don't forget to demonstrate how to stone and whip offenders ranging from adultery to rape properly.

We want your courses to be very accurate in informing the students. Just make sure they don't confuse all that whipping with S&M of their partners. But if they do, it is allright in Islam.

Good luck and have fun conducting your course on Islam and Muslims in US schools and blogs :)

Gotta go fella, my working day is about to start and I am more interested in reading about discriminations against Catholics right now.

Some Catholic doctrines conflict with the plain meaning of Scripture. As a result, people who read the Bible for themselves are likely to doubt or dispute those doctrines. One way of solving that problem is to prevent laymen from reading the Bible. The Catholic Church took that approach for hundreds of years.

Starting about 1080, there were many incidents where scholars wanted to translate the Bible into the language of the common people, but it was forbidden by the Pope, Church councils, or individual bishops.

William Tyndale was burned as a heretic, because he translated the Bible into English. People were burned as heretics for owning or reading his translation.

For centuries, Christians were forbidden to possess the Scriptures in any language, including Latin. Reading the Bible was considered to be proof that someone was a heretic. Men and women were burned at the stake for reading the Bible in Latin.

William Tyndale was an English priest who wanted to make his own English translation of the Bible. His version of the New Testament appeared in 1526.

A decade later, precisely for this translation, he was burned as a heretic.

He was arrested and tried (and sentenced to die) in the court of the Holy Roman Emperor in 1536. His translation was heretical because it contained heretical ideas, not because of the act of making a translation. In fact, the Catholic Church produced a translation of the Bible into English a few years later: the Douay-Rheims version, whose New Testament was released in 1582 and whose Old Testament was released in 1609.

Hypatia, another great mind lost to heresy, is one of the more romantic figures in science. She was the daughter of Theon, a mathematician who taught at the great school at the Alexandrine Library. She traveled widely and corresponded with people all over the Mediterranean. We know of her only through her letters because all of her work was destroyed when the Great Library of Alexandia was destroyed.

She taught at the school in the Library in Alexandria, Egypt. Letters written and addressed simply to the philosopher were delivered to her. She taught mathematics and natural philosophy. She is credited with the authorship of three major treatises on geometry and algebra and one on astronomy. She invented several tools: an instrument for distilling water, an instrument to measure the specific gravity of water, an astrolabe and a planisphere.

After the accession of Cyril to the patriarchate of Alexandria in 412, Hypatia was barbarously murdered by the Nitrian monks and a fanatical mob of Cyril's Christian followers. She died violently: She was dragged to her death by a mob who pulled her from her classroom into the streets where they peeled her to death with oyster shells.

The Catholic Church, which was very powerful and influential in Galileo's day, strongly supported the theory of a geocentric, or Earth-centered, Universe. After Galileo began publishing papers about his astronomy discoveries and his belief in a heliocentric, or Sun-centered, Universe, he was called to Rome to answer charges brought against him by the Inquisition (the legal body of the Catholic Church). Early in 1616, Galileo was accused of being a heretic, a person who opposed Church teachings. Heresy was a crime for which people were sometimes sentenced to death. Galileo was cleared of charges of heresy, but was told that he should no longer publicly state his belief that Earth moved around the Sun. Galileo continued his study of astronomy and became more and more convinced that all planets revolved around the Sun. In 1632, he published a book that stated, among other things, that the heliocentric theory of Copernicus was correct. Galileo was once again called before the Inquisition and this time was found guilty of heresy. Galileo was sentenced to life imprisonment in 1633. Because of his age and poor health, he was allowed to serve his imprisonment under house arrest. Galileo died on January 8, 1642

The thumbscrew was simple placed on the thumb and tighten until it crushed the thumb. The tool was also used on toes. These toothed bars squeezed the victim's testicles til they were destroyed.
The victim was placed on the Spanish donkey and then had extremely heavy weights tied to his or her legs until the force was so great that it destroyed the are between the legs. The Foot Press slowly squeezed the naked foot between the iron plates lined with sharp spikes to crush the bones of the foot. The Scottish Boot was placed around the ankle of the victim and then wedges were forced into the ankle.

The Heretic Fork: The headcrusher simply crushed your head.The whirligig was not that bad of a torture. It just span the victim til they puked.The cat's paw was a short pole with a pitch fork at one end. It was used to tear the the flesh of the vitim.The heretic fork was a two sided prong that went between your chin and your chest. You could not talk with instrument in place and it was very painful.The chair of spikes was a chair of spikes. The victim would sit in the chair and weights would be applied onto the victim forcing his body into the metal spikes.

The phrase, "Kill them all and let God sort them out," is attributed to Dominic Guzman. He's the founder of the Dominican order of priests. He and an armed troop of heretic hunters had come across a town that was supposed to contain a number of heretics. Guzman gave orders to kill everyone in town. When one of his subordinates told him that there were probably a lot of good Christians mixed up with the heretics what Guzman actually said was, "Kill them all and God will know his own." The Dominicans were also responsible for the three degrees of torture -- the thumbscrews, the bastinado and the burning of the flesh under the armpits. That's how we got the term "The Third Degree."

A great mind, a doctor by profession, falls victim as an apostate in Christianity":

Michael Servetus was a wandering Aragonese at a time dominated by the religious fights initially brought about by the Lutheran Reform. Servetus shook the underpinnings of the Christian faith of his time with his antitrinitarian and anabaptist doctrines. As Erasmus of Rotterdam, but from a more radial position, Servetus also criticized the corruption in the Church and proposed a return to the roots and purity of Christianity. Servetus, however, was not condemned for his criticisms of the Church, but mostly for his opposition to the Nicaean interpretation of the doctrine of the Trinity and his rejection to infants' baptism.

Servetus’ theory makes Jesus Christ a kind of prophet, and in this way brings Christianity closer to Islam and Judaism. The doctrine of the Trinity was one of the dogmas in which Catholics, Protestants and Calvinists agreed upon. For this reason, any attack on this dogma was considered a serious offence in the civil and ecclesiastical jurisdictions of practically all Christian Europe.

On October 26 of 1553, the Council issued its judgement against Servetus ordering him to be burnt alive in the hill of Champel. The judgment stated that Servetus was guilty for having printed "twenty-three or twenty-four" years ago a book (“De Trinitatis Erroribus”) that contained blasphemies against the Trinity and for having corrupted Christians and spread his antitrinitarian heresy in a later work (“Christianismi Restitutio”). Furthermore, the judgment condemned Servetus for opposing the baptism of infants.

On October 27, 1553 Servetus was led to the hill of Champel. His body was tied up to a stake with an iron chain and his neck held with a heavy cord. The executioners placed on his head a straw crown sprinkled with sulfur. As usual in these types of executions, a copy of his “Christianismi Restitutio” was placed underneath his feet.

The execution lasted more than two hours because of the green firewood used by the executioners.

Jihadist wrote:
Some Christians wants to send me to hell for not believing that Jesus is Our Lord.

Christians cannot send anyone to hell and unlike the unfortunate non muslims languishing in prisons for blasphemy against islam the western nations ensure you are protected even if you blaspheme Christianity or any other religion.

Jihadist wrote:
After all, I have learned all what you said in primary and secondary school already. Give me something I don't already know.

This is not just for you but for the whole world to learn about this evil cult.

Concerned,

I live in an equatorial country. So, naturally, my brain is sun-fried already. But you need to get some sun, some tan I believe. You know, living in a cold country give one a cold demenour, sickly pallor and rigid minds.

But we'll have to find the tombs and find the bones of the scribes of the Qur'an to scientifically verify if their brains are sun-fried or brain fried.

As for me, I personally like sun-fried tomatoes in my pasta. Tangy.

Ross

Took so long to get back to me:)

Who ever said I am a rational, sane person? Some Christians wants to send me to hell for not believing that Jesus is Our Lord. Some atheists wants to send me to a nuthouse for believing there is a God. But, well, I'm still loose out in the streets and here in On Faith threads.

Of course you are free to develop the school curriculum on religious studies. The children will really get into studying Islam what you proposed to teach. After all, I have learned all what you said in primary and secondary school already. Give me something I don't already know.

Oh yes, I am very brainwashed and sunfried and brain fried.

jihadist wrote:
Y'all do protest too much about whether Islam should be taught in schools. To insist that Islam be taught as a "satanic cult" in schoools? What are y'all afraid of if Islam is taught in schools?

The "whole" truth about islam must be taught, that includes what is written in the hadiths. For example without exposing the fact that Mo slept with a 9 year old how are we going to explain the fact the men are allowed to marry 9 year old girls in islamic countries ?
or how are we going to explain the concept of dhimmitude for non muslims without reveling the butchering and slavery of non muslim tribes by Mo ?

jihadist wrote:
Just because I, like other Muslims, do not see Christ as divine does not make us Antichrists or are members of satanic cults.

It is not because you dont see Christ as divine but the fact you see Allah as divine that makes you a member of a satanic cult. The same Allah who orders the killing of Apostates (the main reason why islam is a cult) or orders the second class treatment for those who do not believe in him.

jihadist wrote:
Insisting that Islam is a "false religion" and Muslims are members of "satanic cult" is, of course, the rationale, the justifications to dehumanize Muslims and then make it all right to spit in their faces, thrash them verbally and physically.
Why don't y'all just put Victoria, Pamela, Asim and Ashfaq in camps like the Nazis did to Jews in WWII? After all, Victoria and Pamela are members of a false religion and evil cult poisoning America with hatred, violence, and satanic behaviors.

In fact muslims do this with the approval of the state and religious bodies. Visit saudi prisons and you'll apostates on death row or non muslims who tried to pray in the privacy of their own homes or were caught with a non islamic religious book or object. Visit jails in Pakitan or many other muslim countries and you'll find non muslims waiting to be tried for blasphemy against islam.

jihadist wrote:
Y'all really seem to believe that if there is no Islam, no religion, no God, there would be no murder, rape, war, and abuse of humans against fellow humans. A bit naive.

Crime is terrible and it just gets worse when a so called religion preaches it.

jihadist wrote:
If your terms are that I must believe in the divinity of Christ to be a true believer, or that I must not believe in God to be a rational being, y'all are authoritarians and totalitarians then:).

Rejecting Allah and Mo should be enough to make you a rational person.

i cover my head liberated- no brain fry!!!

hee hee

by the way lib- are you aware that the madressahs of pakistan have just done a major overhaul of their curriculum- UK and USA approved?

any material deemed prejudiced or hatemongering has been removed.
so far 90% of the madressahs are in full compliance-

so you can look forward to a new generation of young muslims with a more islamically based attitude- (which is an excellent attitude to have)

i thought this would delight you

by the way - as ive asked beofre per your oft repeated request-

have you ever seen the movie amadeus?

remember when the foppish dandyking when asked to comment on mozarts latest work replied flippantly"there are too many notes" ?

and mozart replied quite cleverly i thought-
'exactly WHICH notes would you have me remove?'

so my question to you lib is this-

exactly WHICH "demeaning" passages of the Qur'an would you have me remove?

assuming i have that power- which obviously i dont

MSNBC just ran this trailer across the bottom of its screen:

50% OF AMERICAN HIGH SCHOOL SENIORS THINK SODOM AND GOMORRAH WERE MARRIED TO EACH OTHER

I wonder if the students think S & G are straight or gay?

If gay, they probably think they live in Massachusetts.

Almost makes me want to rethink my opposition to the schools' teaching the Bible. But not quite.

Jihadist,

The Koran and its passages of hate for unbelievers and its demeaning messages about women were written by "Sun/brain fried" Islamic scribes in the 7th century CE. The USA (18th century CE) is just another country that the Islamic mullahs/clerics have added to their list of unbelievers in their constant Allah is good harangue.

I assume you agree that such facts should be a part of any religious education curriculum.

It should also be noted in these courses that "Sun/brain fried" Jewish scribes concocted most of the OT.

And Mark, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul were only partially "Sun/brain fried" since "only" 67% of the NT was concocted. See Professor JD Crossan's book The Historical Jesus. A synopsis of the book's conclusions is posted at http://www.faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan2.rtf .

Hello Concerned,

Good point there you raised: "So to keep on topic i.e. religious education, why do Islamic mullahs teach so much evil, violence and hatred?"

I too don't understand why some Muslim clerics teach so much evil, violence and hatred comes from and is caused by the United States.

By the way, mullahs are specific to Shiite Islam. But, you know that already.

Jihadist,

You noted: " why we are so evil, violent and full of hatred?

So to keep on topic i.e. religious education, why do Islamic mullahs teach so much evil, violence and hatred?

Victoria,

You should know by now that in any threads of Muslim panelists in On Faith, the topic is irrelevant, but an opportunity for those who abhor Islam and Muslims to vent and rant and ask us why we are so evil, violent and full of hatred:)

how much do I hate thee(they always say how much)
Let me count the ways(they always tabulate the number of ways)

With apologies to Elizabeth Barrett Browning

I do enjoy reading these Muslim obsessives actually, quoting everything from the Qur'an, Hadiths, Taliban, terrorists, Mullahs and such.
And oh, the faux Christians evangelizing and the Christian reformists all foaming at the mouth.
Rabid ranters makes for interesting reading as always :)

Salam and peace be with you.

what happened to the topic?

More education for the Bible and Koran "prophet thumpers":

As per many contemporary NT exegetes, Luke 22: 66-70 is not from the historic Jesus. Priest's Question: (1a) Mark 14: 53,60-65 = Matt 26:57,62-68 = Luke 22:54a,63-71. Ditto for John 10: 31-33.

http://www.faithfutures.org/JDB/jdb270.html and http://www.faithfutures.org/JDB/jdb358.html

"As in previous sections, there is no echo here of the authentic voice of Jesus."

Andrew wrote:
I do not share your anti-Muslim bigotry or bigotry against any other religion.

I'm not against faith, I'm against hate and Islam is hate. Things would have been different if you'd have turned athiest (from an islamic background) in a muslim country. A public declaration of athiesm or conversion to other religions means death or imprisonment in these countries. Why must a man be condemned to death just because the electric signals in his brain are arranged differently ?

I respect a persons right to believe in any religion or no religion. But if this belief causes death for apostates, stoning for adulterers or second class status for non believers then I'm going to speak out against such beliefs and if you call that bigotry then so be it.

Hello Andrew,

Cosmos (Κόσμος) means • The universe regarded as an orderly, harmonious whole.
• An ordered, harmonious whole.

What ordered the universe? Do you really think that nature drew up the plans and created all we know as the cosmos ?

Pablo

Hannabal,
The Thais conquered Patani fair and square. Patani was a vassal state of the Thai for many centuries anyway. If Muslims want Patani would they undo their own conquests and return to their own homelands? I would ask the Muslims to return Byzantine to the Greeks in exchange for 'freedom' for the Thai Muslims. Or do you think 'freedom' only goes one way?

Pableo,
I never said that I knew all the answers - I simply said that I didn't think your god is the answer.

I don't have to have an alwternate theory in order to disbeieve the one you posit. Think of it this way - if someone asked me what type of underwear you have on, while I would not know the answer, I do not believe it is a hot pink lace thong. For all I know, you might be going commando today.

Hi Hannabal,

Your argument is a straw man. Jesus does not have to claim to be God. He is God. The scriptures say that clearly. Again your anti Son of God framework will not allow you to see this truth. Take off the glasses of Islam and you will see that the word of God clearly teaches that Jesus is the Son of God.

The claim to be God is witnessed by the religious leaders in John 10. They said Jesus made that claim with His lips. You just chose not to believe their testimony. I know that would be hard for you since you believe in Islam. Again, I am praying for you Hannabal.

Pablo

Peace Pablo, God bless you brother...

Lepidopteryx,

So what gave the universe (the cosmos) its order? Where did personality come from? Where did logic originate?

Pablo

Pablo

My point exactly; you can not back your claim that Jesus claimed to be YHWH explicitly from his own lips. That he created the universe, from his own lips. You have to go to prologues and such...

I think you did not read my post carefully. I wrote about Jesus refuting the accusation the Jews made against him in John chapter 10. You quote the accusation made by the Jews but you do not quote Jesus' response. Please reat it agian. You quote Luke; so what if jesus is son of God spiritaully. I have no problem with that. I have a problem when you take it literally; that's all. Now please don't use proverbs. You are the first one I think to dig deep and come up with something from Proverbs.

The first humans evolved from another life form. I happen to believe in the big bang theory. And before you ask, no, I don't know exactly where the energy source for the big bang came from, but I do not believe it was from a supernatural being.

Hanabal,

Luke 22:66-70 [66] At daybreak the council of the elders of the people, both the chief priests and teachers of the law, met together, and Jesus was led before them. [67] "If you are the Christ, " they said, "tell us." Jesus answered, "If I tell you, you will not believe me, [68] and if I asked you, you would not answer. [69] But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God." [70] They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?" He replied, "You are right in saying I am."

Proverbs 30:4 [JPS]
Who has ascended heaven and come down?
Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hand?
Who has wrapped the waters in his garment?
Who was established all the extremeties of the earth?
What is his name or his son's name, if you know it?

John 10:31-33 [31] Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, [32] but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" [33] "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

The Preeminence of Christ
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by[f] him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. 17And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Pablo

pbuh
"Give me freedom or give me death." It's about high noon the muslim minority in Thailand stood up for their freedeom and their rights. The millitary government there is very cruel to them. They have been pushed to the limits...

YALA, Thailand (AFP) - Five Buddhists have been killed in shootings throughout Thailand's Muslim-majority south, where Islamic separatists have battled the government for three years, police said Sunday.

A Buddhist couple was killed late Saturday in a drive-by shooting as they returned home from market in Yala province, police said.

A brother and a sister, both rubber tappers, were also killed early Sunday in Yala as they headed home from morning work on a rubber plantation, police said.

Another rubber tapper, a 60-year-old man was also killed early Sunday after suspected militants shot him five times as he rode to a plantation in Narathiwat province.

Some 2,000 people have been killed in restive south since the violence erupted in 2004 along this mainly Buddhist country's southern border with Malaysia.

Violence has recently escalated in the region despite a raft of peace-building measures proposed by Thailand's military-backed government.

Please quote form the bible where Jesus said he is God and he created the universe, explicitely, with his own words. simple...

Hello Hannabal,

I hope you had a great day! I am praying for you.

Jesus put on human flesh and came to earth. He became a man. None of the verses you have quoted contradict that truth. Anyway, I do not know why you are using the Bible if you think it has been doctored. You are leaving out the verses that say He is the Son of God. It is true that Israel is personified as a son in the book of Hosea but notice in the context of the verse it says that Israel is a son. In Isaiah 9:6 it is talking about a literal child being born. It is evident when figurative language is being used in the Bible. You have a presupposition that Jesus is not the Son of God so you automatically read everything in the Bible through that framework. John 3:16 clearly calls Jesus God’s “Only begotten Son.” When I look at the Bible I consider the entire message of the Bible. It is a unified story. It teaches that Jesus is creator God of the universe. It also teaches that He came in the flesh.

This verse speaks of John the Baptist preparing the way for the Messiah:
“A voice cries: ‘In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD; make straight in the desert a highway for our God’” (Isaiah 40:3).

Pablo

Concerned

Your ignorance, rudeness and stupidity know no bounds. Please be a gentleman or be gone and let us have a decent dialogue here. thank you...

Pablo,

Reiterating the prophecy myths will not make them true. Escape from the biblical box you are stuck in.

I see the Islamics continue to avoid commenting about the daily butchery of the Shiites by the Sunnis and vice versa. And they do it in the name of the same god, Allah. Talk about terror, horror and signficant stupidity!!! Islam is a sham until the Koran and its followers are "Crossanized".

Pablo,
In a previous post you put forth Isaiah 9:6 as evidence of Jesus being God/son of god. My point of contention was no one ever referred to Jesus as the Father. Later on you stated you don’t know why the word everlasting is in there for. Exactly my point which is you can not cherry pick where to truncate the verse. If only one of the descriptions does not fit the way you believe Jesus to be then the whole claim should be thrown out and put in the pile of no fulfilled prophecies.

Matthew in his book did just that many times in his narrative about Jesus; A good example of that would be:

Matthew 2:13 Now after they had left, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Get up, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.” 14Then Joseph got up, took the child and his mother by night, and went to Egypt, 15and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet, “Out of Egypt I have called my son.”

Matthew’s quote appears in Hosea chapter eleven;

Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. 2The more I called them, the more they went from me; they kept sacrificing to the Baals, and offering incense to idols. 3Yet it was I who taught Ephraim to walk, I took them up in my arms; but they did not know that I healed them. 4I led them with cords of human kindness, with bands of love. I was to them like those who lift infants to their cheeks. I bent down to them and fed them. 5They shall return to the land of Egypt, and Assyria shall be their king, because they have refused to return to me. 6The sword rages in their cities, it consumes their oracle-priests, and devours because of their schemes. 7My people are bent on turning away from me. To the Most High they call, but he does not raise them up at all.

Matthew copied what he needed to convey and stopped in the middle of the verse leaving us with a misleading statement about a fufilled prophecy. This is not the only place where Matthew plays fast and loose with LXX.
Again;

Matthew 1:18 But just when he had resolved to do this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife, for the child conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21She will bear a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” 22All this took place to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet: 23“Look, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel,” which means, “God is with us.”

First of all nobody even his mother ever called Jesus Emanuel. Secondly, the prophecy he is talking about had already happened and it’s not a future prophecy; But Matthew as always plays fast and loose with the Hebrew bible and reads things that are not there at all…

As far as I am concerned the prophecies the Christians put forth as being fulfilled by/in Jesus are half truths and outright lies and deceits. I say not even one; none holds water on close examination; none

You refer to Jesus as the son of God. I agree with you that’s how he is called but a son of God spiritually not literally. Please examine the following verses.

Jeremiah 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me (David), Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Can we say that David is the literal son of God? Of course not, because we understand the author meant a spiritual son and not a literal son and you agree. I approach John 3:16 in the same manner. The NRSV bible I have does not use the word begotten at all. NRSV-John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son…” I think adding the word begotten in the translation is misleading and dishonest to say the least.

You assert Jesus claimed to be God but in the book of John chapter ten Jesus had the opportunity to lay claim to his divinity but he chose to humble himself and discredit the Jews who were accusing of blasphemy.

John 10:31 The Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32Jesus replied, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these are you going to stone me?” 33The Jews answered, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you, but for blasphemy, because you, though only a human being, are making yourself God.” 34Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35If those to whom the word of God came were called ‘gods’ —and the scripture cannot be annulled— 36can you say that the one whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world is blaspheming because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me. 38But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”

Why didn’t Jesus say you Jews are right on the money I am YHWY, now deal with it, put your hands and knees on the ground and worship me. On the contrary he tried to explain to them that they are misunderstanding him and he is only claiming what is rightfully his: He is a righteous man, and deserves to be called son of God in language of the jew, with a message from God to deliver to his fellow Jews.

Logically the son of God idea has no chance to stand on its own. Like C. S. Lewis said the son of a horse is a horse and the son of God is god. Let’s examine that closely. By definition God has no beginning and no end and no one gave him life. To say Jesus is the son of God means that some one gave him life; and the theory self implodes. Son of God becomes a string of words with no meaning attached to them whatsoever.

You say the Qura’n contradicts the word of God. I read the book of Mark and guess what; he never claims that he was inspired nor what he wrote was inspired by God. The same goes for the rest of the NT except for some epistles attributed to Paul. I think it is wrong to lie and claim inspiration from God to some one who never stated that he was inspired by God to start with. It is wrong also to attribute certain things to God for which God has nothing to do with…
The Quran is a book that refers to itself by name many times over and it states the author is God. Here is what the Quran say about Jesus:

4:170. O Mankind! The Messenger hath come to you in truth from God. Believe in him: It is best for you. But if ye reject Faith, to God belong all things in the heavens and on earth: And God is All-knowing, All-wise. 171. O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for your god is one god. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs.

2:252. These are the Signs of God. We rehearse them to you in truth: verily you are one of the messengers. 253. Those messengers We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them God spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honor); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit. If God had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If God had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but God Fulfills His plan.

5:72. They do blaspheme who say: "God is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship God, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with God,- God will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. 73. They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. 74. Why turn they not to God, and seek His forgiveness? For God is Oft- forgiving, Most Merciful. 75. Christ the son of Mary was no more than an messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how God doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! 76. Say: "Will ye worship, besides God, something which hath no power either to harm or benefit you? But God,- He it is that heareth and knoweth all things." 77. Say: "O people of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by,- who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even way. 78. Curses were pronounced on those among the Children of Israel who rejected Faith, by the tongue of David and of Jesus the son of Mary: because they disobeyed and persisted in excesses.

That makes sense to me and appeals to my being; pure and simple. No dogmas, no nothing….
God worked miracles through Jesus for the people to see and ponder and it is too bad Jesus did not leave anything for us to read like the Quran. It is a book like no other in its language, poetry and prose. I don’t need to see miracles to believe in God all I have to do is read the Quran and appreciate its beauty. It changed my life and I am thankful for that…

Watch this video from a US soldier about atrocities he and other US soldiers commit on a daily basis in Iraq against innocent people:
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4315

lepidopteryx,

Who created the first humans?

Pablo

Andrew,

You believe in things you cannot see.

Hello Andrew,

You know God exists because all that is created testifies to His Magnificence. You deny the clear evidence probably because you want to live by your own rules. He has also given you a conscience which testifies that you are accountable for your actions. You will be judged for your sin and you will not be able to say you did not know. Your conscience will stand as a witness against you.

I laid out many prophecies that show that God's word (the Bible) is a special book like no other. You choose not to value God's word and that will be to your folly unless you repent. I hope and pray that you will see the truth of God's word and seek forgiveness for all your sin in His Son Jesus.

I do believe in freedom of religion but I want to tell others about Jesus and the forgiveness He offers. It is up to the people to choose whether they want to believe or not. When I stand before God I want to know that I did all I could to share with my fellow humans how they could be saved from God’s judgment. Your blood will not be on my hands.

The fool says in his heart, "There is no God."
They are corrupt, doing abominable iniquity;
there is none who does good (Psalm 53:1).

Pablo

Emily Reilly

I see your point in desiring that all religions not to be taught at all in schools, including Islam to maintain seperation of church and state in line with US Constitution.

I suppose American parents still have a choice to send their children to private schools or those run by religious entities of their choice for their children.

All the best

Well at least the "prophet" thumping has stopped.

Andrew,
If you have read my earlier posts you'd see that I disagree with ANY religion being taught at schools. My stance is not against Islam but also other faiths as well.

Jihadist,
In case you didn't know there is something called the Constitution of the United States of America. In it, there is a clause to separate the religion and state. Muslims should know this when they come here. Muslims who already live here but converted to Islam should know this even better.

You say you number 6% of the population which I think is an exaggeration. I know because in all my life I cannot see Muslims numbering that many. This is like saying the number of Muslims is the same as the entire population of North Carolina or Virginia. To me that is just not possible.

Also, even if we were to accept that you have the right to teach your religion in the public schools, since you number only 2-6%, then the amount of class-time should similarly be limited to 2-6%. Otherwise you'll be unfair to other religions, won't you? I'm sure you don't mean to be unfair.

Also, as a parent I don't want MY children to be exposed to Islam in any shape or form. You can indoctrinate your children if you wish - but not my kids. Leave my children out of your religion.

When they grow to be consenting adults they can make that decision for themselves whether or not to find out about Islam. But as they're minors I, and no-one else, make such decisions for them.

For that reason I don't want to see ANY religion foisted on the kids at school.

Emily

Emily Reilly

I use the "dehumanizing" analogy as I have been reading up on Jews in Europe from the first time the word ghetto came up in Italy, to the Inquisition, to the Shoah and the current rise in anti-Semiticism.

The parallels are disturbing in choice of words and easy generalizations with regard to Muslims living in the US. They are, as you said, a minority, 2.5% or 6% of the total US population.

You still have a right as to which religion should be taught in the schools your children attended by way of the school boards and PTAs I believe.

And the whole world needs to read up on the Shoah - who, how and why leading to it for useful lessons.

Ross:

As an atheist, I live in a world filled with religions in which I do NOT believe. Frankly, while I have studied religion and understand that they are all quite different, they are all about the same to me. I do not share your anti-Muslim bigotry or bigotry against any other religion. BUT, you may not pick and chosse which religions to teach. If you are unwilling to teach them all, then you may teach none.

Emily:

If you don't want certain religions taught to your kids, then no religion may be taught at all. We are NOT going to just pick the ones you think are OK. It's an all or nothing proposition including atheism (more atheists than Jews and Muslims combined in the U.S.) or there is no basis for teaching anything at all. For example, under no circumstances may you teach my child that there is a god.

Pablo:

Not going to happen. I do not belive, I am not seeking supernatural anything, and I am quite comfortable living and believing as I do. You just made it clear that your so-called evidence is the usual nonsense of the true believer. You believe it, therefore, it must be so. That's not the way it works in this country, at least not yet.

You didn't answer my question. Do you believe in the principle of religious freedom?

Pablo: "You will never fully understand all that God created you to be until you bow your knee to Him through His Son Jesus Christ."

God did not create me - my parents created me through the act of sexual intercourse, the same way my daughter's dad amd I created her.

Pablo,

As part of your continuing education in the updated Christianity:

Jesus to Nicodemus: (1) John 3:11-21; appears only once in the NT. Most contemporary exegetes have concluded that it was not said by the historic Jesus.

http://www.faithfutures.org/JDB/jdb350.html

This of course adds no credence to Islam whose good book was written by warmongering, women-hating scribes who declared themselves to be "angels".

Andrew,

"There is not one shred of proof that there is a god. There is not one shred of proof that Jesus was the son of god or really that he actually existed - there is some anecdotal evidence that someone named Jesus was around at the time in Flavius' History of the Rommans +79. You do not get to decide such matters. You may decide for yourself but for noone else"

You are the evidence that God exists. Do you think you are an accident? I do not, I think thought was put into who you are. You will never fully understand all that God created you to be until you bow your knee to Him through His Son Jesus Christ.

Pablo

I consider what is written below as dodging the issue.

"As for fulfillment of prophecies, especially those dealing with war, every culture that has ever gone to war has won some,lost some. Since the Bible in its current form was complied long after the fact, it would stand to reason that only prophecies which could be interpreted as having been fulfilled would be included by the editors. I have a sneaking suspicion that there were a lot of prophecies that the Council voted to exclude from canon because they did not suit their agenda."

Pablo

lepidopteryx,

I noticed you did not address the fulfilled prophecy. You are a non-believer I will leave it at that and let God deal with you.

Pablo

Why would anyone change their name during sex? Or are you referring to taking a name in terms of role-playing?

I have a question, especially for Muslims because they apparently are bound by sanctioned rituals and wear their Islamic identity on their sleeves.

The situation arose on what is "haram" in Islam.

Of the many situations, listed in hadith etc., one of my Muslim friends told me that if the husband or wife takes the name of Muhammad or Allah during the act of sexual intercourse, then that is haram.

Is this true ?

Andrew wrote,
Do you even believe in the principle of religious freedom?

Non muslims do, but islam does not.

Are you aware the punishment for apostacy in islamic countries (implementing the sharia) is DEATH ?

Are you aware the punishment for adultery is death via stoning in these truly islamic nation?

Are you aware that non muslims are treated as second class dhimmis in islamic countries ?

People find the Christian trinity confusing, the idol Gods of Hinduism ridiculous, the so called enlightment in Buddhism pointless but one can dip a cruxifix in urine in todays world without any threats from christians, one can paint hindu goddesses nude and still get the protection from the indian government. Utter a single word against islam and you find priests and nuns killed, hindus getting bombed on trains, churches burnt in pakistan, tens of thousands of muslim parading outside embassies demanding your death.

Muslims here,
Would you support a course on islam if it included the points I raised above ?

Andrew wrote,
Do you even believe in the principle of religious freedom?

To quote Wafa sultan "I do not care if you worship stones as long as you do not throw them at me".

We target islam because that is what islam does (in some case literally) see the video's here:

*****WARNING********
Please be advised that the images in this video are NOT EASY TO WATCH. They are NOT suitable for children or people with heart conditions. As unfortunate as it is, this brutal and inhumane action is part of the reality in Iran under the rule of the mullahs and we are presenting it here to further expose the atrocities committed by them.

http://www.iran-e-azad.org/stoning/video.html

More here:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Gallery/6.htm

Pablo:

There is not one shred of proof that there is a god. There is not one shred of proof that Jesus was the son of god or really that he actually existed - there is some anecdotal evidence that someone named Jesus was around at the time in Flavius' History of the Rommans +79. You do not get to decide such matters. You may decide for yourself but for noone else

Do you even believe in the principle of religious freedom?

Pablo:"The verse from the Qur'an that you have quoted above contradicts the Word of God. How do you know that Muhammad received it from God?"

What proof is there that Moses saw a burning bush that spoke to him? If he did, what proof is there that it was the voice of your god and not some other deity? What proof is there that he was no hallucinating?

Hannabal,

The verse from the Qur'an that you have quoted above contradicts the Word of God. How do you know that Muhammad received it from God? It attacks one of the central doctrines of Christianity. The Bible teaches that Jesus is the Son of God (John 3:16). If Jesus is not the Son of God then Christianity is a false religion. However, Jesus is the Son of God and there is not one shred of proof that He is not. This means that Islam is a false religion.

Pablo

Pablo: "The Old Testament and the New Testament are a unified whole with the New Testament fulfilling what was foretold by the prophets in the Old Testament."

Actually, they're anthologies. While anthologies may be edited to all deal with a common theme, they cannot be considered unifed wholes.

As for fulfillment of prophecies, especially those dealing with war, every culture that has ever gone to war has won some,lost some. Since the Bible in its current form was complied long after the fact, it would stand to reason that only prophecies which could be interpreted as having been fulfilled would be included by the editors. I have a sneaking suspicion that there were a lot of prophecies that the Council voted to exclude from canon because they did not suit their agenda.

"The Old Testament and New Testament fit together like they should."

Good editing can make that happen.

"If Jesus is not the Son of God there is no Christianity. If He did not die on the cross, there is no Christianity. If He did not rise from the dead there is no Christianity."

Sure there is, as long as people believe it.

BTW, I'm sure that you are aware that there are religions predating Christianity that also have stories of gods who incarnated as men, were born of virgins, and died and were resurrected.

To the "prophet" thumpers:

God gave us many gifts to include Free Will, Future, Reasoning and Common Sense i.e. there are no prophets or prophecies.

Please do yourself a favor and "chuck" your beliefs in Dark Age religions and the literal translation of their good books.

I don't believe we are 'dehumanizing' anyone by asserting that they practise a false religion by worshipping a false god. It is taken as given that every religionist thinks every other religionists worship a false religion, and atheists think every religion is false.

So it might be a little 'dramatic' to say so. Nobody is arguing that anyone worshipping a false religion should be interned or similarly punished for his/her religion. Nobody is saying that at all. We're saying, 'leave your false religion' because it is false and not doing you or us any good. In fact, we don't really care about you - we care about us.

That is one of the reasons I disagree with teaching Islam in public schools because you're trying to indoctrinate MY kids. If you want to indoctrinate your kids in your homes and mosques, I wouldn't quibble, but leave my kids alone.

Emily

Victoria,

I would agree that complete possesion of the land is conditional. God brought Israel into the land in 1948 to start fulfilling His promise. The land of Israel was promised to the Jews and will always belong to them. Even when God scattered them among the nations it still belonged to them. That was God's everlasting promise and He will never go back on that promise. Israel will believe in Jesus. The prohets said so.

Hannabal,

Jesus was a man but He is also God. He is the Son of Man and the Son of God. Jesus has always existed from all eternity with the Father as one. "Let us make man in our own image" (Genesis).

Who else is Isaiah talking about? The only son I know about that was born and called God is Jesus. I do not sure why He is also called the everlasting Father here but I do know He is called God. Maybe it is because He as God who put on flesh became a Father to all who believe. Also John 1:1-3, 14 says that Jesus is God who became flesh.

Hannabal, it seems that most of the Muslims pick one thing that I have said to attack. What about the whole case that I have laid out? Thanks for your questions.

Pablo

8Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Shall a land be born in one day?
Shall a nation be brought forth in one moment?
For as soon as Zion was in labor
she brought forth her children(Isaiah 66:8)

Pablo,

Are you implying that Jesus was called the everlasting Father?

As far as I know no Christian worth a name would call Jesus the everlasting father. They are two distinct personalities of the trinity according to your dogmas. Therefore Isaiah 9:6 can not be talking about Jesus.

My mistake, actually the verse should read:

Qur'an 5.75. The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!

Pablo,

Peter was supposed to have said in Acts about Jesus:

Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a MAN accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God DID AMONG YOU THROUGH him, as you yourselves know. 23This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

I think Peter knows Jesus more than any one. He said Jesus was a man which God worked miracles through him. That's completely in line with the teaching of God in the Qur'an...

Q 5:75. Christ the son of Mary was no more than an messanger; many were the messangers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of a saintly woman. They both had to eat food. See how God does make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!

Hello Victoria,

The prophecy about Israel returning to their land is still ongoing.

Pablo

Hello Victoria,

The so-called branches of "Christianity" who deny the divinity of Jesus are in conflict with the word of God. Thus, they cannot rightly be called Christian.

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, MIGHTY GOD, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace" (Isaiah the Prophet 9:6 emphasis mine).

Good question about Israel. God's promise that He would gather Israel back into their land is dependant upon Him not Israel. Where does it say that Israel’s return to the land is based on their acceptance of the Messiah? I do not see this in the OT; however, Israel will receive Messiah Jesus. That is also foretold.

14"Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when it shall no longer be said, 'As the LORD lives who brought up the people of Israel out of the land of Egypt,' 15but 'As the LORD lives who brought up the people of Israel out of the north country and out of all the countries where he had driven them.' For I will bring them back to their own land that I gave to their fathers (Jeremiah 16:14-15).

Pablo

With respect to "prophets" of any faith:

As per the famous contemporary theologian, Edward Schillebeeckx:

“Nothing is determined in advance: in
nature there is chance and determinism; in the world of human activity there is possibility of free choices. Therefore the historical future is not known even to God; otherwise we
and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women.”

And if God does not know the future, Mohammed, Jesus, Isaiah, et al surely did not.

Time to think outside the boxes of the Bible and Koran!!!

o- the 3rd possibility would give some indication to you as to why there is so much disagreement about the right of israel to exist- jumping ahead of gods plan and all like that-
even among religious jewish people-

Heres a link- youll find plenty of scripture here to support these statementsif you like-

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

happy hunting

JIHADIST- y'all come by and see me next time youre in new york- actually flannery ismymothers familys name- no kidding-

PABLO- you ARE aware that there are many branches of christianity that do not believe in the divinity of Jesus(ata) right?
and they still manage to worship and identify themselves as christians.

also you make a very common misunderstanding in your prophecy- if you investigate the torah (old testament pentateuch) youll discover that the promise of return to israel is conditional upon the coming of mossiach (the messiah).
As the jewish people rejected Jesus(ata) as the messiah- and your prophecy dealt with 70 AD after the temple had been destroyed-

this raises a problem when trying to coincide jewish and new testament prophecy-
if the jewish people rejected the messiah- why would god allow them to 'come back'?

either the jewish people were right and Jesus(ata) wasnt the promised messiah- or the jewish people were wrong, and Jesus(ata) WAS the messiah- but for some inconceivable reason god decided to go against his own prophecy and reward the jewish people for rejecting the messiah?

or the third possiblity that the coming of Jesus(ata) in the future will herald the return of the jewish people to live in peace in israel(as prophesied)

anyway- have fun with that.

Asim,

Below is the post you have not addressed. What say you?

Dear Asim & Victoria,

God uses plural personal pronouns when speaking of Himself in the Old Testament.

"Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. . ." (Genesis 1:26).

And:

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them" (Genesis 1:27).

Notice that being made in the image of God includes two distinct persons who are one. Being created in the image of God includes both male and female. These two are one flesh.

God said in the Old Testament that a Son would be born that would be called "Mighty God?"

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace" (Isaiah the Prophet 9:6).

And God said in the Book of Proverbs:

"Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know" (Proverbs 30:4)!

The Old Testament certainly teaches that God has a Son. What is the name of His Son? In the Old Testament God uses plural personal pronouns when speaking of Himself. When He speaks of making man in His own image that included more than one person. Both male and female. By the way as a side note this places women in a much esteemed place.

Pablo

Asim,

Asim,

I laid out my case for the trinity in the Old Testament above. It is obvious you did not read it because you have not addressed one point that I made. That would not stand in a formal debate.

Your answer that Muhammad claimed to receive revelation and that is why you believe he heard from God is not convincing at all.

I know your leaders have told you that the Bible has been doctored but can you prove this assertion? I have been hearing this lie for years and have yet to see anyone prove this claim.

Asim
“Yes it is possible to be a Christian and believe in Jesus and his teachings without all this mythical baggage of "son of god, savior, resurrection etc...” Muslims love true Jesus-that of the Quran not your distorted Jesus.”

No it is not. The Apostle John said:

22Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also (1 John 1:22-23).

The anti-christ is the one who denies that Jesus is the Son of God. No wonder the Devil denied the Sonship of Jesus through the lips of Muhammad.

Pablo

Norrie

I've worked in New York for 3 1/2 years and then London for almost 4 years. Still go to US and UK often for business/pleasure.

When assigned to New York, I traveled your country lengthwise and breathwise and picked up regional expresssions too. I like the way Texans pronounced oil as "all".

And no, I don't speak like Flannery O'Connor though would very much like to write as well as her (among others) in English.

All the best.

Anonymous,

You can take up that issue up with Jesus:

“Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me’” (John 14:6).

The Apostle Peter said in agreement with Jesus:

"This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

Jesus is the judge and He will judge all false religions and those who rejected His sacrifice and followed a false religion.

Pablo

Pablo,
“How do Muslims know that Muhammad's revelations that Jesus was not the Son of God were correct?”

1// As Victoria repeated over and over again: The Prophet received the revelations, in total, called The Quran; he did not write or author it.
2// The Quran is above all a miracle of reason-for those who read it sincerely to understand it and seek THE ULTIMATE TRUTH, Islam.
3// God's message to mankind is consistent: Absolute Monotheism, There is Only One and Only One God as preached all along by all prophets, most recently-in relative terms-by Abraham,Moses,Jesus and finally Muhammud;God would not suddenly change his mind in the middle of the game-when Jesus’ turn comes up as a prophet-and decide instead to beget a son and crucify him and forget about the consistency of his on-going message of Monotheism even all the way back from Adam to Muhammud.The Quran exults Jesus and his mother Miriam-she is the only women addressed by name in the Quran with a chapter dedicated in her name that tell the story of the virgin birth-which is integral to a Muslim's faith.
Just because we don't share your distorted belief of Jesus as a son of god does not make us wrong: both the OT and the NT have been doctored and altered and written down decades after their revelations to Moses and to Jesus and for different reasons-unlike the Quran which we have today intact as it was revealed to the Prophet over 1400 years. It's perfectly coherent and stood the test of times. Thou not a scientific book, the Quran has scientific facts as signs and proof of its truth that were not known at the time of the Prophet but only modern science unveiled.
Muslims have no problem with the 10 commandments or the message of Jesus-the problem is what "Christians" attribute to Jesus {his divinity} which he never spoke of.
Yes it is possible to be a Christian and believe in Jesus and his teachings without all this mythical baggage of "son of god, savior, resurrection etc...” Muslims love true Jesus-that of the Quran not your distorted Jesus.
I can not elaborate in this forum-you need to read Muslim sources, speak to Muslims, visit a mosque near you or see some websites such as Islamonline.com
Peace.

Ross, I think 'Jihadist' did pretty well at explaining why your comments are hurtful to a Muslim. As for your questions, one could argue that even the devil believes the Nicene creed or that the church of satan could require you to profess satan as thier savior. Ultimately, faith in god is something you do not have the right or the knowledge to judge.

Hello Norrie,

Muhammad questioned all the things I laid out in that paragraph. The point is that if what Muhammad said is true then there is no Christianity. I guess you would have had to read all of the posts to understand. Thanks for the grammar lesson. I am still learning and will be until the day I die. God bless!

Pablo

Pablo,

Looking at the "if...then..." propositions of your last paragraph, I have no choice but to conclude that "...there is no Christianity" (your words).

Jihadist,

I like your southernism. Where did you pick it up?

Ms. Pamela Taylor

It would useful for western colleges to study Applied Christianity, Applied Islam as one would be taught about applied sciences.

Applied Christianity in the US would help us understand how personal beliefs and religious entities coursed into public policies and public affairs from abortion to creationism/evolution.

It is a fact that even in "secular states" where the much vaunted seperation of state and church is supposed to be practiced, religious beliefs flavoured and determined public discourses and policies. If many religious people are not guided by religious beliefs that homosexuality is wrong, the opposition against gay rights and marraiges may be less for example.

Applied Islam is already being studied in universities in the Muslim world. It is roughly divided into political, legal, social and economics as to how Islamic beliefs and principles are coopted into state policies and public life. I don't need to elaborate on legal and social - the Islamic Family laws is one such manifestations. In economics, the principles of sukuk in Islamic financial system among others. Also, as to how Muslim consumer demands for halal products affects the producing/manufacturing sectors. There is a burgeoning female Muslim fashion sector. Applied Islam is one area that need to be studied more in the west.

Oh, the west do study one area of Applied Islam. They call it Political Islam and solely focus their study on extremist and terrorist groups.

The prophet Zechariah foretold:

"I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves" (Zechariah 12:2-3).

Lepidopteryx,

The Old Testament and the New Testament are a unified whole with the New Testament fulfilling what was foretold by the prophets in the Old Testament. The Old Testament prophets foretold the future and the events they spoke about happened in the future. For example, the prophets foretold that Israel would be scattered among the nations because of their disobedience (Deuteronomy 28:64; Jeremiah 9:16, Ezekiel 12:15). That happened after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Jesus foretold the destruction of Jerusalem also. He said that not one stone in the temple would be upon another. That was fulfilled literally. When Titus’ army burnt Jerusalem the gold in the temple melted between the stones. Thus the conquering army took each stone apart to make sure they retrieved all the gold. The prophets foretold that Israel would be gathered back into her land again (Jeremiah 16:14-16). People used to make fun of that prophecy before 1948 when Israel was reborn as a nation. Zechariah the prophet foretold that in the last days, Jerusalem would be a burden to the entire world (Zechariah 12:2-3). Watch the news and you will see that this is true now. Little Israel the size of New Jersey is a burden to the nations. The Old Testament prophets foretold that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem through the family of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob through the line of David, of the tribe of Judah. Jesus fulfilled all these prophecies. The prophets foretold that the Messiah would be God who would put on human flesh and come to the earth (Isaiah 9:6). The prophets foretold that the Messiah would die on the cross for the sins of the entire world (Psalm 22; Isaiah 53; Daniel 9:26). The prophecies listed are just the tip of the iceberg; there are many more prophecies in the Bible that were fulfilled but I think I have made my point.

Muhammad who is supposed to have been a prophet did not foretell anything of any significance. He predicted he would win some of the battles he went into and that is about it. The Old Testament and New Testament fit together like they should. Muhammad's supposed revelations contradict the word of God. My question has yet to be addressed and still is, “how do Muslims know that Muhammad's revelations that Jesus was not the Son of God were correct?”

If Jesus is not the Son of God there is no Christianity. If He did not die on the cross, there is no Christianity. If He did not rise from the dead there is no Christianity. It seems to me that someone did not like Christianity. That someone spoke through Muhammad. What is the identity of the one who spoke through Muhammad? I wonder

Pablo

Y'all do protest too much about whether Islam should be taught in schools. To insist that Islam be taught as a "satanic cult" in schoools? What are y'all afraid of if Islam is taught in schools?

And these obssessions of some Christians and atheists about satan. Trying to exorcise satan from yourself here? No, I don't have holy water to help y'all with that nor do I know the proper rites to do so.

Just because I, like other Muslims, do not see Christ as divine does not make us Antichrists or are members of satanic cults.

Insisting that Islam is a "false religion" and Muslims are members of "satanic cult" is, of course, the rationale, the justifications to dehumanize Muslims and then make it all right to spit in their faces, thrash them verbally and physically.

Why don't y'all just put Victoria, Pamela, Asim and Ashfaq in camps like the Nazis did to Jews in WWII? After all, Victoria and Pamela are members of a false religion and evil cult poisoning America with hatred, violence, and satanic behaviors.

Y'all really seem to believe that if there is no Islam, no religion, no God, there would be no murder, rape, war, and abuse of humans against fellow humans. A bit naive.

If your terms are that I must believe in the divinity of Christ to be a true believer, or that I must not believe in God to be a rational being, y'all are authoritarians and totalitarians then:).

Anonymous,

If you are referring to my posts:
Posted March 11, 2007 3:32 PM
Posted March 11, 2007 3:44 PM

then please explain in what way are they derogatory ? If you have changed your mind about it then please provide the answers.

Ross, can you think of a way to phrase your questions without being derogatory? No one is going to answer your questions with an attitude like that. Or maybe you're so sure your right you don't want the answers, in which case you are a fool.

you guys are silly

Victoria wrote:
Since most people arent really aware of what islam actually is- il post the 5 pillars of islam upon which the foundation of our religion is built-

1) Faith | 2) Prayer | 3) The 'Zakat'
4) The Fast | 5) Pilgrimage (Hajj)

The church of satan can be built on the same foundations listed above.

1.Satan can ask his followers to have faith in him.
2.Satan can ask his followers to pray five times a day.
3.Satan's church can start a system of obligatory charity that goes towards the well being of the followers.
4. Satan can ask his followers to fast to receive great rewards.
5. Pilgrimage should be no problem.

So how is islam different ?

Victoria wrote:
I testify that there is no god except God.
I testify that Muhammad is the messenger of God.

Please tell us who composed this prayer ?

Lepidopteryx wrote,
the same way you "know" that Moses, Daniel, Isaiah, Paul, John, etc received revelations from God because you believe the scripturtes that say they did.

The old testament is a collection of works of many authors over a period of centuries, whereas Mo one fine suddenly appears out of a cave claiming that he received some revelations for a so called allah had then attempts to rewrite the history of the jews contained in the bible.

I imagine Victoria "knows" that Muhammed received a revlation from God because she believes the scriptures that say he did - the same way you "know" that Moses, Daniel, Isaiah, Paul, John, etc received revelations from God because you believe the scripturtes that say they did.

Victoria,

I know about Islam I just do not agree that Muhammad received any revealtion from God. I am not asking what Islam is about. I am asking you how you know Muhhamad received relelation from God.

Pablo

Concerned Now Liberated,

I am not in a popularity contest. I am concerned with truth. If the truth of Jesus makes me public enemy number one so be it. He was rejected for the truth. The apostles were rejected and martyred for the truth of Jesus. Christians have been rejected through the ages for holding to the truth of Jesus. I will do the same.

Pablo

Victoria,

You could have just as easily referenced a website.

You could also have just as easily addressed the major problems with Islam i.e. the historic Mohammed i.e. his illiteracy and because of this he was not able to proofread what was written by warmongering, women-hating scribes in the Koran.

Koran thumping does not work in the today's world.

Since most people arent really aware of what islam actually is- il post the 5 pillars of islam upon which the foundation of our religion is built-

1) Faith | 2) Prayer | 3) The 'Zakat'
4) The Fast | 5) Pilgrimage (Hajj)

They are the framework of the Muslim life: faith, prayer, concern for the needy, self-purification, and the pilgrimage to Makkah for those who are able.

1) FAITH

There is no god worthy of worship except God and Muhammad is His messenger. This declaration of faith is called the Shahada, a simple formula which all the faithful pronounce. In Arabic, the first part is la ilaha illa Llah - 'there is no god except God'; ilaha (god) can refer to anything which we may be tempted to put in place of God - wealth, power, and the like. Then comes illa Llah: 'except God', the source of all Creation. The second part of the Shahada is Muhammadun rasulu'Llah: 'Muhammad is the messenger of God.' A message of guidance has come through a man like ourselves.

2) PRAYER ( Prayer Performance )

Salat is the name for the obligatory prayers which are performed five times a day, and are a direct link between the worshipper and God. There is no hierarchical authority in Islam, and no priests, so the prayers are led by a learned person who knows the Quran, chosen by the congregation. These five prayers contain verses from the Quran, and are said in Arabic, the language of the Revelation, but personal supplication can be offered in one's own language.

Prayers are said at dawn, noon, mid-afternoon, sunset and nightfall, and thus determine the rhythm of the entire day. Although it is preferable to worship together in a mosque, a Muslim may pray almost anywhere, such as in fields, offices, factories and universities. Visitors to the Muslim world are struck by the centrality of prayers in daily life.

A translation of the Call to Prayer is:
God is most great. God is most great.
God is most great. God is most great.
I testify that there is no god except God.
I testify that there is no god except God.
I testify that Muhammad is the messenger of God.
I testify that Muhammad is the messenger of God.
Come to prayer! Come to prayer!
Come to success (in this life and the Hereafter)!
Come to success!
God is most great. God is most great.
There is no god except God.

3) THE 'ZAKAT' ( Zakat Information Center )

One of the most important principles of Islam is that all things belong to God, and that wealth is therefore held by human beings in trust. The word zakat means both 'purification' and 'growth'. Our possessions are purified by setting aside a proportion for those in need, and, like the pruning of plants, this cutting back balances and encourages new growth.

Each Muslim calculates his or her own zakat individually. For most purposes this involves the payment each year of two and a half percent of one's capital.

A pious person may also give as much as he or she pleases as sadaqa, and does so preferably in secret. Although this word can be translated as 'voluntary charity' it has a wider meaning. The Prophet said 'even meeting your brother with a cheerful face is charity.'

The Prophet said: 'Charity is a necessity for every Muslim. ' He was asked: 'What if a person has nothing?' The Prophet replied: 'He should work with his own hands for his benefit and then give something out of such earnings in charity.' The Companions asked: 'What if he is not able to work?' The Prophet said: 'He should help poor and needy persons.' The Companions further asked 'What if he cannot do even that?' The Prophet said 'He should urge others to do good.' The Companions said 'What if he lacks that also?' The Prophet said 'He should check himself from doing evil. That is also charity.'
4) THE FAST ( Ramadan Information Center )

Every year in the month of Ramadan, all Muslims fast from first light until sundown, abstaining from food, drink, and sexual relations. Those who are sick, elderly, or on a journey, and women who are pregnant or nursing are permitted to break the fast and make up an equal number of days later in the year. If they are physically unable to do this, they must feed a needy person for every day missed. Children begin to fast (and to observe the prayer) from puberty, although many start earlier.

Although the fast is most beneficial to the health, it is regarded principally as a method of self purification. By cutting oneself off from worldly comforts, even for a short time, a fasting person gains true sympathy with those who go hungry as well as growth in one's spiritual life.
5) PILGRIMAGE (HAJJ) ( Hajj Information Center )

The annual pilgrimage to Makkah - the Hajj - is an obligation only for those who are physically and financially able to perform it. Nevertheless, about two million people go to Makkah each year from every corner of the globe providing a unique opportunity for those of different nations to meet one another. Although Makkah is always filled with visitors, the annual Hajj begins in the twelfth month of the Islamic year (which is lunar, not solar, so that Hajj and Ramadan fall sometimes in summer, sometimes in winter). Pilgrims wear special clothes: simple garments which strip away distinctions of class and culture, so that all stand equal before God.

The rites of the Hajj, which are of Abrahamic origin, include circling the Ka'ba seven times, and going seven times between the mountains of Safa and Marwa as did Hagar during her search for water. Then the pilgrims stand together on the wide plain of Arafa and join in prayers for God's forgiveness, in what is often thought of as a preview of the Last Judgment.

In previous centuries the Hajj was an arduous undertaking. Today, however, Saudi Arabia provides millions of people with water, modern transport, and the most up-to-date health facilities.

The close of the Hajj is marked by a festival, the Eid al-Adha, which is celebrated with prayers and the exchange of gifts in Muslim communities everywhere. This, and the Eid al-Fitr, a feast-day commemorating the end of Ramadan, are the main festivals of the Muslim calendar.

Last year there were over 3 million people who traveled to mecca for the hajj(pilgrimage)

it is the largest gathering of human beings on the planet-

So for those not familiar= the profession of faith- prayer 5 times a day- fasting- charity and the performance of hajj-

one of the most beautiful aspects of hajj- is that all people- kings and paupers- wear the same clothes and stand as equals before ALLAH_
you really have no idea who is praying next to you- what could be more egalitarian than that?

Pablo,

Liberate yourself from Dark Age Christianity. See the common sense and Christian reality of JD Crossan and the other Jesus Seminarians. Bible (and Koran) thumping does not work in the modern world.

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated,

Please remove Christian from your name. What I read of your posts is not Christian. Please do not misrepresent Christianity.

Pablo

For Bible and Koran thumpers:

To repeat:

And the final chapter for courses in religion:

Keeping "religious bones" in perspective: (as noted previously in an analogous commentary)

And what has history, scriptural text reviews and archeology taught us about these "religious bones"
or lack thereof?

1. Abraham is the reported founder of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Based on all we know now, Abraham was at best a combination of three separate individuals with 1.5 million Conservative Jews no longer believing he existed at all. (ditto for all the characters in the OT).
references: National Georgraphic review on Abraham and http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. The founders of Christianity and Islam were both illiterate. i.e. neither one proofread or approved the NT or the Koran so we are taking the word of scribes and embellishers with their own agendas some having militaristic and anti-female agendas leading to groups like the Taliban and their Islamic death and truth squads.
references: NT exegetes from the last two hundred years, Karen Armstrong's reviews of Islam and http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

3. Christianity is based on gossip about the sayings and ways of Jesus, the whim of Pilate, the false prophecy of the imminent second coming, and the sword of Constantine.

references: NT exegetes and their conclusions/books from the last two hundred years.

Conclusion: The Jewish, Christian and Islamic faiths have very little foundation (or spiritual bones) to rely on.

Again for all the Koran and Bible thumpers:

You reside in the thinking and beliefs of the religious of the Dark Ages. Time to get outside the boxes of the Bible and Koran and join the world of common sense and reality. The Bible confirming the authenticity of the Bible will not convince anyone. Ditto for the followers of the Koran.

With respect to the one billion Muslims in the world. Most of these Muslims live in fear of crazy mullahs and death and truth squads. They have little or no education other than Allah is good and no access to the outside world. Remove the fear and watch the conversion to other faiths or to no faith at all. And most became Muslims due to the threat of the sword as per the militant passages of the Koran.

Dear Bible and Koran thumpers:

I repeat:

Dear Anonymous,

Stop your racist assault on white people. White people are currently being discriminated against right here in the USA. In our educational institutions anti-white professors (even though many are white themselves) are teaching students to hate all the fat white people who founded our country. These "professors" using the freedom of speech established by all those stupid white people use that freedom to attack everything about them. Every people group has their faults and every people group have contributed good things to our world. We all need to come clean and admit our mistakes. That includes all races of people. Then we should all move on in love for one another. Do not be brainwashed by the anti-American anti-white intelligencia in the USA today. The more I listen to these politically correct thugs the more I fear a totalitarian America is on the way.

With Love for all my Fellow Humanity,

Pablo

All Racism is anti-Christian

Dear Jewish People,

I love you all as fellow humans made in the image of God. I stand with you and believe that your homeland Israel should always exist in peace. Any injustice done to you in the name of Christianity in the past flowed from ignorance and was anti-Christian. Jesus was a Jew and thus treating Jewish people badly is an oxymoron. If a person were to hate the Jewish people that person would have to hate Jesus also. Jesus commanded His people to love all people. Paul also taught the Gentiles to love the Jewish people. Therefore, if a "Christian" shows hate to a Jewish person they are in conflict with the word of God.

Pablo

For Victoria:

emily- most americans DONT consider islam to be a cult- but the ones that do just dont know what it is-

if you went to a mosque youd be pleasantly surprised-

(as i myself have gone to buddhist and hindu and jewish temples) to learn about what people believe from THEM-

but i have hope that the younger generation recognizes and rejects the fear and prejudice of their parents- just like i did-

------
I shouldn't think so since the conversion rate to Islam is sooo low. I think during the Moonies and Orange People hayday there were more converts to those cults than to Islam today.

For Asim:
Emily,
American Muslims number more than eight million; your independent sources are any thing but independent; many Muslims don't report themselves as such after the discrimination and fear they are confronted with in America today, thou they are absolutely loyal to their new homeland and are law abiding citizens. African-American Muslims number two million-out of the total above.

--- so you think CAIR is independent? I'd much rather believe independent i.e. non-religious sources which all put Muslims at less than 8 million.

Besides, I am an American and I can tell you from personal experience there is no way Muslims number more than Jews here. The visibility just isn't the same.

Numbers are not the issue: Jews are only six million-more than the number of Jews in the so called state of Israel-and yet there is only one Muslim in congress and 43/forty three Jewish members of congress-which speaks mountains of the highly organized and powerful Jewish community in America. As a representative democracy, this is what America should fear: that influence was crystal clear on the run up to the war on Iraq which was zealously pushed by AIPAC and Israel and which is fought on behalf of Israel with American Blood and Treasure.

--- It only goes to show how productive Jews are relative to Muslims.

Islam is the fastest growing faith in America because among other reasons it's color and race blind. Since 9/11 over two hundred thousand Americans converted to Islam,interestingly,most of them women-including Hispanics who connect to Islam culturally and historically thru the brilliant Muslim rule in Spain from 711AD-1492 AD when the Catholic Church imposed the Inquisition on mostly Muslims as well as Jews.

--- 200 thousand in 6 years is small potatoes. We have 300 million population. That's less than 0.1%.

Even accepting your number without considering apostacy (conversion isn't a one-way street in free countries, you know), the immigration is only about 100,000 per year. That hardly adds up to 8 million. Your numbers go up by 1 million each year it seems yet your conversion rate is sooooo low - only about 30,000 per year and 100,000 immigration. It is obvious Muslims are exaggerating their numbers in the USA.

Muslims feel much attached to Islam when after they immigrate to new homelands such as America. This thing about apostasy/attrition is wishful thinking: some Muslims might not live up to the ideals of Islam as any other faith, but they eventually come around to live up Islam to its fullest. If you go to mosques in Muslim countries or to Mecca during the Hajj, you will discover that most of the worshippers are from the young-it was not so just a generation ago.

--- do you think other people don't feel attached to their religions? Yet there are some sources that say about 75% of American converts leave Islam within 5 years. People wise up and find Islam is not for Americans - it is for the Middle East.

Volume 1, Book 4, Number 162:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "Whoever performs ablution should clean his nose with water by putting the water in it and then blowing it out, and whoever cleans his private parts with stones should do it with odd number of stones."

My question to muslims is, why not use two or four stone, why it has to be an odd number?

your help on this is greatly appreciated.

You might say that's old history, how about the present. The born again Christian president of ours sends 150,000 soldiers armed to the teeth to Iraq and says he received a revelation from his god. Most Christians are for the war over there because the lord wills and it's about killing the infidels who are going to hell any way. The result of his actions are well documented; About 700,000 innoscent people have died already; 2,000,000 refugees who fled the carnage and left destitute. I don't see churches organizing any protests. The only people against the war and hitting the pavement are what you call the atheist, the deist and the very liberal christians who still got a conscious and they are in the minority. That's the kind of love the world can do without. I still stand by my statement that Christianity is a curse for humanity and you have to prove otherwise...

Here is more Christian love for his fellow man. This is an account of what happened some time ago during the crusades. You be the judge.

"Their behavior was worse during the siege of Marra. The Christian army resorted to cannibalism; digging up corpses for their own consumption. When they finally entered the city, all adults were murdered, even those who had paid the Christian leader, Bohemond (c1052-1111), large sums of money to spare their lives. The children were sold to the slave market at Antioch.

If Bohemond was cruel, Godfrey's conquest of Jerusalem was barbaric. The crusaders forced their way into Jerusalem on the 15th of July 1099. For the next two days there was ensued a continuous massacre by them of the inhabitants of Jerusalem, both Muslims and Jews. The carnage is preserved for posterity by many eye-witness account. Given below is one taken from Gesta Francorum (The Deeds of the Franks):

The defenders fled along the walls and through the city, and our men pursued them killing and cutting them down as far as Solomon's Temple, where there was such a massacre that our men were wading ankle deep in blood ... Then the crusaders rushed around the whole city, seizing gold and silver, horses and mules, and looting the housing that were full of costly things. Then, rejoicing and weeping from excess of happiness, they all came to worship and give thanks at the sepulchre of our saviour Jesus. Next morning, they went cautiously up the temple roof and attacked the Saracens, both men and women [who had taken refuge there], cutting off their heads with drawn swords ... Our leaders then gave orders that all the Saracen corpses should be thrown outside the city because of the stench, for almost the whole city was full of dead bodies ... such a slaughter of pagans had never been seen or heard of, for they were burned in pyres like pyramids, and none save God alone knows how many they were.

Another eyewitness account, by Raymond of Aguiles, not only corroborates the above account but conveys a sense of his own religious ecstasy at experiencing such a complete and total Christian victory:

Wonderful sights were to be seen. Some of our men (and this was more merciful) cut off the heads of their enemies; others shoot them with arrows, so that they fell from the towers; others tortured them longer by casting them into flames. Piles of heads, hands and feet were to be seen in the streets of the city. It was necessary to pick one's way over the bodies of men and horses. But these were small matters compared to what happened at the Temple of Solomon, a place where religious services are normally chanted ... in the temple and the porch of Solomon, men rode in blood up to their knees and bridle reins. Indeed it was a just and splendid judgement of God that this place should be filled with the blood of unbelievers since it had suffered so long from their blasphemies.

A total of about 40,000 Muslims were killed in that two-day massacre of Jerusalem. [10] The Jews were murdered along with the Muslims, many were huddled into the synagogues and burned alive. Thus was Jerusalem saved by the Christians from infidel hands.

I represent all the jewish souls that have been the recipient of the warm love of Jesus Christ's followers. Don't you want to weep for them too.

and,and End of the Tale.
The children of The Great Ali,a Knight(it is a comic term.Knight means Christian warrior of chivalry),Orator(where is the book of oratory),a Sage,Companion and Cousin of the Prophet,had been killed by muslim soldiers of Mooavye son of Livereater cannibal Hint.

Yes,Mooavye was the secretary of the Prophet.
Yes,The Great Ali was the Cousin of the Prophet.
and,children of cousin of Prophet had been murdered by the men of secretary of Prophet.

All sleepwalkers,Look.This is Real Islam.
I wrote completely Real History,not Tale.

Where is the Justice?
Where is the Compassion?
Where is the Mercy?
Where are those who became Islamic Specialist within eight or ten years???

The previous hate message was brought to you by the founder of the Protetant Christianity. That kind of bigotry could have been the catalyst for the murder of six million jews only sixty years ago, don't you agree. Recent history I might add...

"What then shall we Christians do with this damned, rejected race of Jews? Since they live among us and we know about their lying and blasphemy and cursing, we can not tolerate them if we do not wish to share in their lies, curses, and blasphemy. In this way we cannot quench the inextinguishable fire of divine rage nor convert the Jews. We must prayerfully and reverentially practice a merciful severity. Perhaps we may save a few from the fire and flames [of hell]. We must not seek vengeance. They are surely being punished a thousand times more than we might wish them. Let me give you my honest advice.

First, their synagogues should be set on fire, and whatever does not burn up should be covered or spread over with dirt so that no one may ever be able to see a cinder or stone of it. And this ought to be done for the honor of God and of Christianity in order that God may see that we are Christians, and that we have not wittingly tolerated or approved of such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of His Son and His Christians.

Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed. For they perpetrate the same things there that they do in their synagogues. For this reason they ought to be put under one roof or in a stable, like gypsies, in order that they may realize that they are not masters in our land, as they boast, but miserable captives, as they complain of incessantly before God with bitter wailing.

Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer-books and Talmuds in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught.

Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach any more...

Fifthly, passport and traveling privileges should be absolutely forbidden to the Jews. For they have no business in the rural districts since they are not nobles, nor officials, nor merchants, nor the like. Let them stay at home...If you princes and nobles do not close the road legally to such exploiters, then some troop ought to ride against them, for they will learn from this pamphlet what the Jews are and how to handle them and that they ought not to be protected. You ought not, you cannot protect them, unless in the eyes of God you want to share all their abomination...

To sum up, dear princes and nobles who have Jews in your domains, if this advice of mine does not suit you, then find a better one so that you and we may all be free of this insufferable devilish burden - the Jews..."

By Martin Luther - 1543

They call themselves chritsians and Jesus is their lord and savior and that's enough for me...

Anonymous:

Either you are ignorant or a pathetic liar. FYI, white man's bloody racism has nothing to do with Christ's teachings. The two are separate and indeed diametrically opposite. And Jesus was not a caucasian. He was Jewish and was darker than his white followers - who must have had an axe to grind with you and your ancestors.

History shows that the white man, by his christianity, has been the most ruthless, blood thirsty, most biggoted race that ever walked on the face of the earth. Wherever he goes he leaves a trail of blood and carnage behind him. Millions of people died and others suffered under his watch. Until forty years ago he treated his fellow black man, and he still does, as a dog beacuse of the scurge of slavery and racism that he instituted into the law of the land. As far as I see it Christianity has been and will be a curse on humanity...

Not all religions are compatible with US Cosntitution. Christianity is the most liberal and secular religion - something that was admired even by Thomas Jefferson who was a deist and not a formal Christian.

Christians in USA and abroad have witnessed the most brutal assault on the foundations of their faith. Recently newsitems appearing on the CNN stated that some archeologists have found tombs in Israel that speculatively suggest that Jesus Christ was married, had kids and his bones have been found in an ossuary. The documentary filmmaker (Simcha Jacobovici) is Jewish.

There has been no credible reports that Christians all over the world have been going on a rampage, killing anyone who is a non-Christian or for that matter Jews, and causing mayhem/bloodletting. Christians have shown exemplary tolerance as always which is because their religious values are secular and non-Christians can live comfortably and prosper materially. These social values stem from the foundations of the Christian faith: forgiveness. That's what Jesus Christ preached. Even if you don't subscribe to all the components of the Christian belief, you still remain grateful to Jesus Christ because he is the founder of this all-encompassing benevolence. Thus, regardless of his personal life, I am willing to concede, as a practical deist, that Christ was divine.

Contrast that with the Mohammed cartoons. In this context recall Quran[005:033] verbatim. Given all the facts, can we just place Christianity and the religion of Islam on equal footing ? One calls for peace and the other is all poised to take my blood and confiscate my human rights of free speech and opinion. Isn't thus Islam a barbaric religion by comparison ?

The writing is on the wall: if Americans (gullible as they are) equalize Islam and Christianity, then the USA as we know shall not exist. It's already happenikng in UK and Canada. Muslims in Canada have called for decapitation of the Prime Minister Stephen Harper and slaughter of the government officials. This is because Canada slept while Islam grew and brewed hatred. Same with UK. Anjem Choudhary was shown on CNN by anchorwoman Christiane Amanpour to state openly that he wants Sharia laws and kill people of the royalty and the Government.

Probably that bloody fate awaits America. It'll happen, but when ? We don't know yet. But, we can sure slow its approach. To do so, stop teaching Islam in public schools inside USA.

GALATIANS 1:6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed

From what I read in the NT Jesus never mentioned that man is in need of a human or a demi-god blood sacrifice to have his sins forgiven. In a nutshell, he preached against the tendency to observe the letter of the law rather than the spirit of the law of Moses.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Fifteen years after Jesus' death a theology about Jesus by Mr Saul was formulated.

GALATIANS 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law [ergon nomou] are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the Book of the Law, to do them."

ROMANS 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

GALATIANS 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

This kind of teaching is foreign to Jesus and he would never have approved of such a cheap grace.

Saul even goes as far as cursing the Judaisers and the people that preached the Gospel as they heard it from their teacher Jesus himself.

I believe if any man is inspired by the devil it was Paul and he stands condemmed by Jesus and by God. He was a deceiver and a liar. In reality Christians practice a religion about Jesus not the religion of Jesus. And that's the very definition of a cult. Christians are followers of Saul not Jesus even if they have his name sake...

Victoria,

I believe that Muhammad dictated the Qur'an to someone who could write. I do not believe he had any revelation form God. I do believe that he had revelations from the evil one. I believe this because the evil one hates the Son of God. The evil one wants to attack Jesus at His nature. The evil one wants to blind people to their need for a Savior. The evil one wants to question the work Jesus did on the cross for our sins. Why should one believe that Muhammad received any revelation from God? He contradicted both the Old and New Testaments. The Bible is the standard by which teaching about God is judged. Jesus fulfilled the scriptures when He came Muhammad contradicted them.

I know that this sounds harsh to you but that is what I truly believe. I do not mean it as an attack on you personally.

Pablo

Apparently some "pretty wingy thingie" wrote/sent/delivered the Koran to the prophet.

But we all know "pretty wingy thingies" are myths from ancient pagan religions i.e. some overzealous, militaristic, woman-hating scribe wrote the Koran.

I repeat: What students should be taught about angels.

http://www.likeacat.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=1

"The beginnings of the biblical belief in angels must be sought in very early folklore. The gods of the Hittites and Canaanites had their supernatural messengers, and parallels to the Old Testament stories of angels are found in Near Eastern literature. "

"The 'Magic Papyri' contain many spells to secure just such help and protection of angels. From magic traditions arose the concept of the guardian angel. "

http://www.heart7.net/spirit/at.html

"TUBUAS-A member of the group of angels who were removed from the ranks of officially recognized celestial hierarchy in 745 by a council in Rome under Pope Zachary. He was joined by Uriel, Adimus, Sabaoth, Simiel, and Raguel."

Liam Houlihan

March 11, 2007 12:00am

RADICAL Islamic literature, DVDs and websites are proliferating across Melbourne while authorities are seemingly helpless to stop the underground trade in hate talk.
In tucked away Melbourne bookshops and prayer rooms, as well as online, text and recordings commonly slur Jews and urge followers to Islamise the world.

The faithful are told to obey only Sharia law.

A Sunday Herald Sun audit of Islamic bookshops found dozens of books, pamphlets, DVDs and CDs with radical and sometimes violent messages.

One book, Man-Made Laws Vs. Shari'ah, urges Muslims not to "accept anything from their governments and rulers except sharia", stating any other system is heresy.

The book prescribes stoning for adultery and drinking alcohol and advocates flogging for casual sex.

The same text claims the Jews have always waged a war against Islam.

Another booklet, The Conditions of La Ilaha Illa Allah, states all children of Israel are going to hell.

"A painful torment is theirs because they used to tell lies," it states.

It describes a Muslim's aim as "to strive for a returning to the true Islamic way of life . . . and to bring about a society guided upon the Revelation and for the Laws of Allah to be applied upon the earth."

Filipino Muslims display a banner, which reads 'Behead Those Who Insult Islam,' and t-shirts with a wanted sign during a rally Wednesday March 7, 2007, at a downtown Manila square , to protest recent televised preaching by a Christian sect leader Eli Soriano, who alleges that Muslims are killers. More than 1,000 Muslims took part in the rally and demanded Soriano, who is currently in hiding, be extradited back to the Philippines so he can face charges being brought against him. (AP Photo/Bullit Marquez)
http://news.yahoo.com/photo/070307/481/mla10203070714ccc

personally im looking forward to pamelas return and i hope she shares a little about the conference shes at right now-

complain all you like- shes the only panelist ive seen here who responds to individuals consistently-

pablo- possibly youd like to rephrase in a way that can be answered-

how about- The words of the Qur'an call into question certain elements of the bible?

youre laboring under the misapprehension that Muhammad(pbuh) wrote the qur'an-

since he didnt its not possible to answer an impossible question-

dont take it personal alot of people make this misunderstanding-

so what do you think about teaching about religion in school?

ross? anyone have an opinion about the subject itself?

i was surprised that anonymous post was you ross- its so out of character-

The previous post was mine.

Pablo wrote:
Muhammad questioned the Bible. How does one know that Muhammad was right?

At this point, the Mohammedan brandishes the Quran. "Here is the proof!", he cries.

When the unbelieving masses burst into laughter, he threatens them with Doom and Hellfire.

When they still don't stop laughing, he produces the grenades and AK47s.

That is Islam. A doctrine of lies, threats, and violence.

Asim,

" I always win my debates with the learned and the Wise; but I always loose them with Ignorant and the Unlearned."

This statement is the best you have? Come on Asim, you are ducking because you have no defense. You have not addressed one point is a rational way. I can see I am wasting my time by laying out a reasoned case. All you have showed me is that you believe Muhammad because he claimed to be enlightened.

Muhammad questioned the Bible. How does one know that Muhammad was right?

Pablo

ASIM is right and i am evidence of it-
im a white american woman who consciously CHOSE to follow islam without marrying into it or being compelled by any other reason than my own conscience-

i personally have never thumped my chest for any reason- however as a human i am proud of who i am -

im a muslim pleased to meet you-

i believe that im protected by the constitution of my country to be so-

our forefathers were not christians but deists-
and had awareness of and even included islamic doctrine into their formation of the constitution-

imagine that?
the founders foresaw the intentions of others to try and control ones religious life- and precluded it with laws that few would say need to be dispensed with-

anyone hear want to cut my right to be muslim out of the constitution?

mabe we should cut ALL belief systems out of the curriculum- including political systems-

LKT made intelligent comments about how health and sex education has evolved in the american school system-

emily- most americans DONT consider islam to be a cult- but the ones that do just dont know what it is-

if you went to a mosque youd be pleasantly surprised-

(as i myself have gone to buddhist and hindu and jewish temples) to learn about what people believe from THEM-

but i have hope that the younger generation recognizes and rejects the fear and prejudice of their parents- just like i did-

actually emily- the mean average of the non muslim sources of the number of muslims in america is 5.6 million- MEAN AVERAGE-

however its all so off point-

as evidenced by the posts about islam by non-muslims and the plethora of wrong information that foemnts prejudice and bias- id say that is precisely why religion shout be TAUGHT ABOUT-

I dont think any reasonable person would propose that religion itslef be taught in school- but teaching about different belief systems can only instill in our children a deeper tolerance of those who vidoe games and movies are indoctrinating as a generation of future crusader
soldiers-

keeping the hate out of our children should be a goal- not as suggested inculcating hatred and fear through malignant and false information-

no matter how one attempts to propogate their own fears i contend that it has no place in the classroom-

belief systems of others across the globe (and indeed our own neighbors) will only help our children to become more inclusive and compassionate to all humans- a very honorable goal-

there is a book by a paul barrett chronicling muslims in america-
its a really interesting study-

in it there is a poll taken for american attitudes towards muslims-

those in the 50 and over age bracket are very anti-muslim- the stats change with age-
the 24 and under crowd coming in with much less bigotry and more tolerance-
we want this dont we?
a tolerant generation to become the future leaders of america?

also even in the over 50 crowd- the stats of islamophobes dropped by A FULL ONE HALF! when the person actually KNEW PERSONALLY one muslim!

see how knowledge and experience triumph over ignorance and fear?

its a very hopeful and encouraging indication of the future trends.

Asim wrote:
Islam is the fastest growing faith in America

People following this cult display a great deal of PRIDE, that includes chest thumping declarations like:
"Islam is the greatest religion" or
"Islam will rule the world" or
or like you said "More and more people are converting to islam"
This is something muslim's like to believe to assure themselves they are following the true faith, unfortunately quite the opposite is happening. Most intellectuals are leaving islam in droves, they do not publicise this because they fear for their lives. Thanks to the news, internet or other media more and more people have become aware of the true nature of this cult.

Now even if more people are joining islam, does that make it a true faith ? Crime is increasing worldwide but that does not mean it is a good thing.

Read this:
Islam beheaded
"Muhammad's empire of faith has managed to thrive in the modern world for one simple reason: Muslims have kept Muhammad's dark past a secret. Indeed, they have gone beyond keeping it a secret; they have somehow convinced themselves (and many others) that Muhammad was an outstanding moral example, perhaps even the greatest moral example of all time. Perpetuating this fraud has been, in my opinion, the most stupendous deception in world history."

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=20936

PABLO,
I fully stand by my post above. Further more, The Great Ali Ben Abi Taleb, a Knight, Orator, A Sage, Companion and a Cousin of the Prophet said to a group of people who insisted on the path of falsehood and closed their minds to rational and reasonable debate:" I always win my debates with the learned and the Wise; but I always loose them with Ignorant and the Unlearned." I honestly believe it to be a waste of time to debate CREED with the likes of you, because you have taken such an aprioristic positions and are so entrenched in your own shells with sealed hearts and closed minds. May God help remove that seal off your hearts and guide you to the ultimate truth: Islam? Islam the all inclusive faith that embraces all Prophets of God, who were all Muslims including Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and the seal of all Prophets,Muhammud (Pbuh and all of them).

Xtian the Not-So-Liberated and the need-not be-so-concerned,
Your "Am holier than thou" posture and your misplaced paternalistic attitude of wanting to "save the other" is insulting to say the least. Your Jesus-and not mine-that of the Quran-and according to your Christian doctrine, He –Jesus- did not save himself, so how could he save you!!!Come on now be rational and approach the truth with an open mind, courage, sincerity, and you will find the TRUTH. In the mean time and till you embrace that ultimate truth-act and deal with the other as Jesus would have: no polemics, no attacks, no monopoly over the truth, no hate...no “am doing it because I love you” line. What is needed is tolerance and love. You can believe in whatever faith you want and would still be my fellow human being afforded respect, equality and understanding-but the moment you transgress, you will find formidable opposition to refute and stop you.

Emily,
American Muslims number more than eight million; your independent sources are any thing but independent; many Muslims don't report themselves as such after the discrimination and fear they are confronted with in America today, thou they are absolutely loyal to their new homeland and are law abiding citizens. African-American Muslims number two million-out of the total above.

Numbers are not the issue: Jews are only six million-more than the number of Jews in the so called state of Israel-and yet there is only one Muslim in congress and 43/forty three Jewish members of congress-which speaks mountains of the highly organized and powerful Jewish community in America. As a representative democracy, this is what America should fear: that influence was crystal clear on the run up to the war on Iraq which was zealously pushed by AIPAC and Israel and which is fought on behalf of Israel with American Blood and Treasure.

Islam is the fastest growing faith in America because among other reasons it's color and race blind. Since 9/11 over two hundred thousand Americans converted to Islam,interestingly,most of them women-including Hispanics who connect to Islam culturally and historically thru the brilliant Muslim rule in Spain from 711AD-1492 AD when the Catholic Church imposed the Inquisition on mostly Muslims as well as Jews.

Muslims feel much attached to Islam when after they immigrate to new homelands such as America. This thing about apostasy/attrition is wishful thinking: some Muslims might not live up to the ideals of Islam as any other faith, but they eventually come around to live up Islam to its fullest. If you go to mosques in Muslim countries or to Mecca during the Hajj, you will discover that most of the worshippers are from the young-it was not so just a generation ago.

much said, well said, congrates

Hey bible thumpers, could you explain the egregious nonsense in the following. Remember you claim God inspired your collection of books you call bible even though the authors do not claim to that sort of thing. I guess claiming it was inspired by God some how that will give legitimacy to their "holy book."

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven...

But we read in Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

and in king 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

It seems that Jesus did not know about the things he inspired long ago in the OT.

The following is a big discrepancy even your best apologist can not wiggle out of this one.

When examining the four crucifixion accounts as they are presented in the New Testament, it is difficult to point to a single event upon which all four Gospel writers agree. Even the date of the crucifixion is an issue of contention among the four Gospels.

A perfunctory examination of New Testament texts reveals that the Books of Matthew, Mark, and Luke all agree that the Last Supper was actually a Passover Seder. Bearing in mind that Jesus was crucified on the very next day following the Last Supper, that would mean that according to all three synoptic Gospels, Jesus was crucified on the first day of Passover, or the 15th day of the Jewish month of Nissan (for example, if tonight were a Passover Seder, then tomorrow would be the first day of Passover).

Luke 22:7 Then came the day of Unleavened Bread, on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed.
22:8 So Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, "Go and prepare the Passover for us, that we may eat it."

Matthew 26:17 Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Where will you have us prepare for you to eat the Passover?" 26:18 He said, "Go into the city to a certain one, and say to him, `The Teacher says, My time is at hand; I will keep the Passover at your house with my disciples.'" 22:19 And the disciples did as Jesus had directed them, and they prepared the Passover.

The author of the Book of John, however, completely contradicts the first three Gospels, and maintains that Jesus was crucified on the eve of Passover, or the 14th day of Nissan. The Book of John reads, "Now it was the day of preparation for the Passover . . . . Then he handed him over to them to be crucified." (19:14-16)

John 19:14 It was the preparation day of the Passover, and about the noon hour. Pilate said to the Jews, "Behold, your King!" 15 But they shouted, "Away with him! Crucify him!" Pilate said to them, "What? Shall I crucify your King?" "We have no king but Caesar!" the high priests answered. 16 He therefore handed Him over to them to be crucified. And they took Jesus and led Him away.

John 19:31 states, "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the Sabbath day, (for that Sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away."

The implications of this stunning contradiction cannot be overstated because both claims cannot be true. In essence, this is not the sort of inconsistency that can be explained away by missionaries insisting that the reason for the varying Gospel accounts is due to different perspectives of the Gospel writers. Jesus was crucified either of the eve of Passover, which is the 14th day of Nissan, as John contends, or on the first day of Passover, which is the 15th day of Nissan, as the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke maintain. Jesus could not have been crucified on both days.

You bible thumpers have to admit to the error and I dare you to explain yourselves otherwise...

Coming from a family history of religious strife in Ireland (through ancestry but not personal experience) I firmly believe that the less personal religion enters the public space the better. Let God and only God decide.

In the US we have the constitutional guarantee of the separation of religion and state. We should keep it that way. I disgree with any religion being taught as part of the public school curriculum, except as a sociological exercise.

I also disagree that the Muslims are as numerous as Jews. I have been around this wonderful country of ours and am yet to be convinced the Muslims number even half that of the Jews - but that is my personal opinion. Therefore, I think at most the number of Muslims is 2-3 million, not the 6-7 (or 8) million touted by MUSLIM sources. Independent sources (who have done their own estimates) come up with far less than the Muslim estimates.

According to the immigration statistics, only about 100,000 people enter the US from Muslim countries per year (if I remember correctly) and conversion rates are not high - estimates range from 30,000 to 200,000 per annum (probably exaggerated). Thus, I can see that the number of Muslims in the US is only growing by about 200,000 without considering apostacies.

I've also read that 3/4 converts to Islam in America leave the faith within 5 years. We do know there are apostacies elsewhere as well as we have Muslim leaders bemoaning their children leaving Islam as they have been seduced by the Western secular lifestyle.

Nevertheless, I do not think we should be teaching religions in public schools. Whose religion should be we teaching? If Muslims only number about 2-3% of the population should we be giving Islam 2-3% of the 'religious education' class time? I feel it is unfair but inevitable that Muslims would want to dominate the curriculum when they number only so few.

HOT OFF THE WIRE:

"Georgia public schools move towards teaching Bible

"By DOUG GROSS
Associated Press
Thursday, March 8, 2007; 9:16 PM"

ON THE FRONT PAGE OF THE WAPO TODAY

Notice that no other religion's scriptures are being taught.

Want to bet on whether the classes will have an Episcopal or a Fundamentalist cast to them?

This Georgia law shows exactly why religion should not be taught in the public schools!

Pablo and Asim,

You both reside in the thinking and beliefs of the religious of the Dark Ages. Time to get outside the boxes of the Bible and Koran and join the world of common sense and reality. The Bible confirming the authenticity of the Bible will not convince anyone. Ditto for the followers of the Koran.

With respect to the one billion Muslims in the world. Most of these Muslims live in fear of crazy mullahs and death and truth squads. They have little or no education other than Allah is good and no access to the outside world. Remove the fear and watch the conversion to other faiths or to no faith at all. And most became Muslims due to the threat of the sword as per the militant passages of the Koran.

Dear Asim & Victoria,

God uses plural personal pronouns when speaking of Himself in the Old Testament.

"Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. . ." (Genesis 1:26).

And:

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them" (Genesis 1:27).

Notice that being made in the image of God includes two distinct persons who are one. Being created in the image of God includes both male and female. These two are one flesh.

God said in the Old Testament that a Son would be born that would be called "Mighty God?"

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace" (Isaiah the Prophet 9:6).

And God said in the Book of Proverbs:

"Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know" (Proverbs 30:4)!

The Old Testament certainly teaches that God has a Son. What is the name of His Son? In the Old Testament God uses plural personal pronouns when speaking of Himself. When He speaks of making man in His own image that included more than one person. Both male and female. By the way as a side note this places women in a much esteemed place.

Pablo

Dear Asim,

It is blasphemy to Christians but we will not threaten to murder you because you speak out against our Holy Scriptures. We will leave that kind of judgment to God where it belongs. As for arrogance I can only say that I am a sinner who is saved by the grace of my God the Lord Jesus Christ who purchased me with His blood. I am not good enough for that gift but have received it by grace. On what grounds will you approach God? Are you are good enough for God? No one is good enough for God. That is why Jesus gave up His life as a sacrifice for all who would believe that He is the Son of God. Again Muhammad and not God have said that Jesus did not die on the cross or rise from the dead. This is another blasphemous assertion by Muhammad and all Muslims who believe that is the case. Again, we do not wish death on you but we pray that you would see God's love and mercy and cast yourself upon Jesus for the redemption He purchased at the cross. I point these things out not out of hate but out of love. A person cannot be saved until they understand that they are in need of saving. That is how it was for 20 years of my life. Jesus saved me by His grace and I love Him. I want you, Victoria, and any other Muslim in the world to know His love. I know what I have said may sound harsh and if I have said anything that is deeming to you as a person I am sorry. It made me angry when I my sister gave me this message but I needed to be confronted with the truth that just maybe I was lost and in need of saving.

Pablo

Abraham was the first Muslim.Wrong.Father Adam was the first muslim.
Moses,Christ were good Muslims.In that case,Jews are not Jews and Christians are not Christians.They are all Muslims.It is not a Art interpretation but comic one.
IF son of bedouin,illiterate gamel driver,husband of child girl become Messenger of God,son of jew of course can be Son of God.
IF the 100 m2 wooden house of pagan center at middle of desert becomes House of God who created billion and billion planets and if illiterate man takes Read revelation from God,Book written by persecuter Saul of course becomes Book of God.
If You have your religion and I have mine,you like it or not,Trinity is the base of Christinity and if you respect Christ you respect Bible as well.If you respect Moses,you shall respect The Law(main source of so called Abrahamic religions).

Pharaoh was the representetive of god Amon Ra.
Sumerian Kings were the representetives of god An.
Hittites Kings were representetives of god Teshup.
and all of them were mythology.
But,illiterate gamel driver was the Real Messenger of God Allah.Is it your logic and reason??

No compulsion in religion.Same tale.
What is the House of War??
What does 2.191,2.193,8.12 and 9.73 mean?(such as many others)

"Public schools should not teach religion, but they should teach about it."

If I really thought that was possible I would be all for it. However all it will end up doing is putting a chink it the constitutional armor of separation of church and state. Those with a religious agenda will do all in their power to exploit that chink to try to indoctrinate your children with their religious beliefs. As a practitioner of a minority religion I think this is something you should keep in mind.

Cncnd the Xtian Liberated.

From your frequent posts on these threads, you persuaded me-and many others-that you are any thing but Liberated, especially your bigotry against and hatred of Islam and Muslims.

You may want to really take a good look at the example Jesus (PBUH)perhaps you can learn some tolerance, acceptence of the other and more importantly,Love.

Pablo,
You combine both Arrogance and Ignorance in one shot-a stroke of genius.

On arrogance: why should over 1.6 billion Muslims answer to some one like you and prove any thing about THE PROPHET or Islam? If you have any serious and sincere interest in Islam, then go to original and genuine Islamic sources and find out -as this forum does not lend itself to providing lectures on Islam and Islamic theology. I know you are not sincere and your questions are more accusations and polemics than honest questions-not subtle at all.

On Ignorance: your ignorance of Islam is appalling-at least before you engage in a half way decent debate, you should do some basic reading on the subject lest you sound so shallow and ignorant-which you do. You quote the following Surah from the Quran as if it were a blasphemy and an accusation against Muslims:”Say GOD is one, the Eternal God. He begot none, nor was He begotten. None is equal to Him”

This short but terse Surah affirming Absolute Monotheism and Oneness of GOD (Allah) is the basic foundation of Islam: Abraham-the first Muslim- was the father of Monotheism and believed in it, as well as Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. All these Prophets are Muslims by Islamic definition: they believed in the One and Only GOD and submitted themselves to Him.

Jesus never claimed to be other than a Prophet and servant of GOD-the concept of the so called trinity is mind boggling, and an invention of misguided mortals with origins rooted in Greek mythology of multiple gods etc.

What blasphemous and utterly irrational for people in the 21st century to believe and claim that a "merciful" god would send "his only begotten son" to die such a horrendous death-and for what? To save a bunch of sinners! "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him” (John 3:16-17).Unlike the Quran which was memorised during the life of the Prophet and written down immediately after his death, the bible was written decades after the death of Jesus and therefore is not the original scripture revealed to Jesus and many alterations crept into it-some intentionally,some not.

Why does not your "merciful god" save the world without having to slaughter "his only begotten son"? Would a Just and Compassionate god do such an irrational and cruel murder?
Would you Pablo crucify and murder you only son or any of your sons or daughters TO save and redeem a bunch of criminals in the state penitinsionary who should take personal responsibility for their crimes and sins?

Is it then a coincidence that neither the faith that preceded "Christianity," namely Judaism, nor the faith that followed it, Islam, disbelieve in your brand of "Jesus" and this trinity mythology; Jesus was a Jew from the line of David-one of their own,the Jews-so to speak-so why did not the Jews believe in the Trinity and in your brand of Jesus as the son of god?

All the same, you can believe any thing you want: The Quran says "No compulsion in religion," and "Those who so desire to believe in Islam are free to do so-the faith of Abraham who was neither a Jew nor a Christian-And those who desire not to believe can do that freely" and the Quran addresses those no-believers that "You have your faith and I have mine," an indication that Islam can disagree with but yet accept others'right to believe in the faiths of their choice-it's the diversity of human mind.

Pablo,
You combine both Arrogance and Ignorance in one shot-a stroke of genius.

On arrogance: why should over 1.6 billion Muslims answer to some one like you and prove any thing about THE PROPHET or Islam? If you have any serious and sincere interest in Islam, then go to original and genuine Islamic sources and find out -as this forum does not lend itself to providing lectures on Islam and Islamic theology. I know you are not sincere and your questions are more accusations and polemics than honest questions-not subtle at all.

On Ignorance: your ignorance of Islam is appalling-at least before you engage in a half way decent debate, you should do some basic reading on the subject lest you sound so shallow and ignorant-which you do. You quote the following Surah from the Quran as if it were a blasphemy and an accusation against Muslims:”Say GOD is one, the Eternal God. He begot none, nor was He begotten. None is equal to Him”

This short but terse Surah affirming Absolute Monotheism and Oneness of GOD (Allah) is the basic foundation of Islam: Abraham-the first Muslim- was the father of Monotheism and believed in it, as well as Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. All these Prophets are Muslims by Islamic definition: they believed in the One and Only GOD and submitted themselves to Him.

Jesus never claimed to be other than a Prophet and servant of GOD-the concept of the so called trinity is mind boggling, and an invention of misguided mortals with origins rooted in Greek mythology of multiple gods etc.

What blasphemous and utterly irrational for people in the 21st century to believe and claim that a "merciful" god would send "his only begotten son" to die such a horrendous death-and for what? To save a bunch of sinners! "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him” (John 3:16-17).Unlike the Quran which was memorised during the life of the Prophet and written down immediately after his death, the bible was written decades after the death of Jesus and therefore is not the original scripture revealed to Jesus and many alterations crept into it-some intentionally,some not.

Why does not your "merciful god" save the world without having to slaughter "his only begotten son"? Would a Just and Compassionate god do such an irrational and cruel murder?
Would you Pablo crucify and murder you only son or any of your sons or daughters TO save and redeem a bunch of criminals in the state penitinsionary who should take personal responsibility for their crimes and sins?

Is it then a coincidence that neither the faith that preceded "Christianity," namely Judaism, nor the faith that followed it, Islam, disbelieve in your brand of "Jesus" and this trinity mythology; Jesus was a Jew from the line of David-one of their own,the Jews-so to speak-so why did not the Jews believe in the Trinity and in your brand of Jesus as the son of god?

All the same, you can believe any thing you want: The Quran says "No compulsion in religion," and "Those who so desire to believe in Islam are free to do so-the faith of Abraham who was neither a Jew nor a Christian-And those who desire not to believe can do that freely" and the Quran addresses those no-believers that "You have your faith and I have mine," an indication that Islam can disagree with but yet accept others'right to believe in the faiths of their choice-it's the diversity of human mind.

Victoria:

Thanks you for your kind words. I cannot write about that set of expereinces beyond what I wrote in that post - even now, 37 years later. I have spent many years working with other men who have been raped in prison, talking to juvenile offenders about what happens when they hit the big time prisons and attempting to get State and Federal officials to do something meaningful to stop prison rape (they just don't care).

These days, I am very happy, very successful, still enjoy my fabulous wife of 35 years, etc. That seems like enough for me.

Emily:

There are roughly 6 million Muslims in the U.S. about 2% of the total population of 300 million. There are also about 6 million Jews in the U.S. Then, there are 1.5 million or so Buddhists, 1.0-1.5 million Hindus, 0.5 million Wiccans and other similar (although that group is growing fast - might be more right now). Ther are 15 miilion atheists, 10-15 million agnostics, 15-20 million who just don't care at all (say their religion is none but about 50% will say they believe in a god. In fact, altogether, there are 70-75 million Americans who are NOT Christians. That leaves 220-225 million Christians who are a slowly declining percentage of the population.

Filipino Muslims display a banner, which reads 'Behead Those Who Insult Islam,' and t-shirts with a wanted sign during a rally Wednesday March 7, 2007, at a downtown Manila square , to protest recent televised preaching by a Christian sect leader Eli Soriano, who alleges that Muslims are killers. More than 1,000 Muslims took part in the rally and demanded Soriano, who is currently in hiding, be extradited back to the Philippines so he can face charges being brought against him. (AP Photo/Bullit Marquez)http://news.yahoo.com/photo/070307/481/mla10203070714ccc

Emily Reilly:
"Most people view Islam as a false religion."

Most (but not all) people view any religion other than their own as a false religion. 'Tis the nature of religion.

"Most Americans view Islam as a false and horribly violent religion. There is no way we should teach Islam in schools except as a demonstration of evil cults."

So what religion(s) would you like to see public schools teach as true? Any religion except Islam? Chrisitianity only? It is not the business of public schools to teach children spiritual truths. It is not the business of public schools to teach the nature of good and evil. That's the business of parents, churches, mosques, synagogues, temples, and covens.

And the final chapter for courses in religion:

Keeping "religious bones" in perspective: (as noted previously in an analogous commentary)

And what has history, scriptural text reviews and archeology taught us about these "religious bones"
or lack thereof?

1. Abraham is the reported founder of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Based on all we know now, Abraham was at best a combination of three separate individuals with 1.5 million Conservative Jews no longer believing he existed at all. (ditto for all the characters in the OT).
references: National Georgraphic review on Abraham and http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. The founders of Christianity and Islam were both illiterate. i.e. neither one proofread or approved the NT or the Koran so we are taking the word of scribes and embellishers with their own agendas some having militaristic and anti-female agendas leading to groups like the Taliban and their Islamic death and truth squads.
references: NT exegetes from the last two hundred years, Karen Armstrong's reviews of Islam and http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

3. Christianity is based on gossip about the sayings and ways of Jesus, the whim of Pilate, the false prophecy of the imminent second coming, and the sword of Constantine.

references: NT exegetes and their conclusions/books from the last two hundred years.

Conclusion: The Jewish, Christian and Islamic faiths have very little foundation (or spiritual bones) to rely on.

Now that we know what should be taught about "pretty wingy thingies" this is also what should be taught in schools about religions:

A repeat:

From the history of humankind:

There is no archeological evidence that the Moses of the OT ever existed. The scribes who wrote the OT, embellished many old Jewish tales/legends/myths to fit their concept of Monad and to keep the general tribal communities in line with oral tradition/guilt. The trails/trials of Noah, Abraham, Job and Moses were concepts for tribal nomads/peasants/shepherds/ordinary folk living in the age of illiteracy, short life spans, hardships, diseases, and "dirt poor" living conditions. Mankind has advanced and these concepts although wise for the ages, are not historical.

The evolutionary process continues with contributions from the historical Buddha, John the Baptist, Jesus, Paul, the NT scribes, Constantine, Gandhi, the Dalai Lama, Schillebeeckx, the Jesus Seminar, Crossan, Mother Theresa, and the Hubble Telescope.

Mohammed is not included as we now know his reception of the Word was reported to be from a "pretty wingy thingie". So much for that heavenly connection!!!

Dear Jihadist,
Me: Most people view Islam as a false religion. Most Americans view Islam as a false and horribly violent religion.

You: How in the world did that happened? Fox Network? Al Qaeda? Crusades? Evangelicals? Ann Coulter? Pat Robertson? Robert Spenser? Commentary? All I know for certain is that, when someone said Islam is a false religion, it is because I would not accept theirs as the true one and only.

Me again:
Stands to reason. Most people aren't Muslims. Most Americans do think Islam is a horrible religion having been exposed to its effects. You do see comparatively few conversions to Islam among Americans by the way.

Me: There is no way we should teach Islam in schools except as a demonstration of evil cults.

You: I'd really love that. A whole generation of Americans to be taught on evil cults as manifested by Islam and to continue the Crusades and be cannon fodder for the government and evangelicals to fight all evil cults. So, after Islam, would it be Moonies, Scientologists, Mormons, Wiccans/Pagans next? And finally atheists too for daring not to believe in the existence of God?

Me again: The fact that Islam is an evil cult is self-evident. Best to educate the kids to avoid it like the plague. It's akin to drink-driving and drug-abuse - public education for the purpose of eradication of a set behavior.

Me: Sorry the truth hurts you but please bear in mind other people's points of view before trying to impose yours.

You: I know. We've heard the "truth" before and here again from you. But we are not hurt, just perplexed actually, that you can say anything about us, but we can't say anything in return that does not fit with your notions.

Ashfaq was not trying to impose his views I recall. He was just saying what he believe in and thinks, like Canyon Shearer, Pablo and you. No one has to agree with him if they don't.

I got to go. FTSE is going to open soon. Got to know what's happening in the markets.

Me again: Yes he was. He is like most Muslims who make special demands. After all, Muslims are only about 2-3% of the American population. I don't by that 6-7 million estimate by CAIR - that would make Muslims more numerous than Jews in the US and I can see that is just not true.

You: Regards and have a nice weekend Emily Reilly. That's a lovely Irish name you have. Catholic or atheist?

Me: I'm not an O'Reilly so it makes me sort of non-practising Protestant.

Emily Reilly,

You : Most people view Islam as a false religion. Most Americans view Islam as a false and horribly violent religion.

Me: How in the world did that happened? Fox Network? Al Qaeda? Crusades? Evangelicals? Ann Coulter? Pat Robertson? Robert Spenser? Commentary? All I know for certain is that, when someone said Islam is a false religion, it is because I would not accept theirs as the true one and only.

You : There is no way we should teach Islam in schools except as a demonstration of evil cults.

Me : I'd really love that. A whole generation of Americans to be taught on evil cults as manifested by Islam and to continue the Crusades and be cannon fodder for the government and evangelicals to fight all evil cults. So, after Islam, would it be Moonies, Scientologists, Mormons, Wiccans/Pagans next? And finally atheists too for daring not to believe in the existence of God?

You : Sorry the truth hurts you but please bear in mind other people's points of view before trying to impose yours.

Me : I know. We've heard the "truth" before and here again from you. But we are not hurt, just perplexed actually, that you can say anything about us, but we can't say anything in return that does not fit with your notions.

Ashfaq was not trying to impose his views I recall. He was just saying what he believe in and thinks, like Canyon Shearer, Pablo and you. No one has to agree with him if they don't.

I got to go. FTSE is going to open soon. Got to know what's happening in the markets.

Regards and have a nice weekend Emily Reilly. That's a lovely Irish name you have. Catholic or atheist?

LKH

Always a pleasure to read your posts. Much food for thought. This is an incredibly slow week for me.

You said : "Otherwise, we will most likely continue to blunder in place after place after place... turning other cultures and countries against us."

I completely agree with you that we need to learn on culture. In these times, religion is part of the culture of nations and peoples. The American Dream and American Way of Life is not exactly religious based, but cultural and national aspirations.

In my personal experience, people from the Americas to Asia take more personal offence re cultural or social slights and misunderstandings. Say, not taking off shoes in an Asian home, eating with the left hand, making unknowingly unseemly bodily gestures, etc.

Religion can form culture as per the much stated Judeo-Christian civilisation or Islamic civilization.

Religion can be part of culture as in Japan where being a Buddhist is part of being but not necessarily defining the Japanese culture.

Religion is also part of the identity of a person, but only when asked on belief. People tend to say they are French, Bolivian or South African rather than Hindu, Buddhist or Quakers when outside their own country.

Within their own country, people tend to identify the town, region, province or state they are from. Only when asked about their faith would people respond as to being an atheist, Buddhist or Jain.

If, in their daily life people consider their faith to be part of who they are, and religion as part of their wider culture, why do we need to pay so much attention on religion instead of the wider culture (which includes religion) and cultural differences that makes up nations and peoples?

LKH, you got it right. We all continue to make cultural blunder after cultural blunder because we would not bother to learn on other cultures, especially other religions - that most personal and and dearly held beliefs apart from nationalism.

But then, people who want to impose their religious beliefs on others and state policies is a whole different contentious kettle of fish -ncluding which religion to teach in schools, at what level, content, and by whom.

Best regards

Victoria,

That is a good cop out for not having an answer.

Pablo

Asfaq,
You have your presupposition that Islam is the true religion and other religions are false and therefore you demand (a peculiar characteristic of Muslims btw) that Islam be taught in schools.

Most people view Islam as a false religion. Most Americans view Islam as a false and horribly violent religion. There is no way we should teach Islam in schools except as a demonstration of evil cults.

Sorry the truth hurts you but please bear in mind other people's points of view before trying to impose yours.

Sincerely,
Emily

More angel ("pretty wingy thingies") education:

To reiterate the references to "pretty, wingy thingies" of antiquity:

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/angels.html

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07049c.htm

"This belief in guardian angels can be traced throughout all antiquity; pagans, like Menander and Plutarch (cf. Euseb., "Praep. Evang.", xii), and Neo-Platonists, like Plotinus, held it. It was also the belief of the Babylonians and Assyrians, as their monuments testify, for a figure of a guardian angel now in the British Museum once decorated an Assyrian palace, and might well serve for a modern representation; while Nabopolassar, father of Nebuchadnezzar the Great, says: "He (Marduk) sent a tutelary deity (cherub) of grace to go at my side; in everything that I did, he made my work to succeed."

What else students should be taught about angels.

http://www.likeacat.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=1

"The beginnings of the biblical belief in angels must be sought in very early folklore. The gods of the Hittites and Canaanites had their supernatural messengers, and parallels to the Old Testament stories of angels are found in Near Eastern literature. "

"The 'Magic Papyri' contain many spells to secure just such help and protection of angels. From magic traditions arose the concept of the guardian angel. "

http://www.heart7.net/spirit/at.html

"TUBUAS-A member of the group of angels who were removed from the ranks of officially recognized celestial hierarchy in 745 by a council in Rome under Pope Zachary. He was joined by Uriel, Adimus, Sabaoth, Simiel, and Raguel."

Seems this discussion has gotten well off the topic of how to teach about religion in public schools. Being a senior citizen, I remember being taught "health" in high school in the late 50's. There was no discussion of alternatives to abstinance, the only choice to keep yourself safe from unwanted pregnancy until you were supposed to have sex (within marriage only.) Our course ignored the fact that a large percentage of high students were having sex already. Scare tactics did not teach us to abstain.

Some years later, as a teacher and parent, I realized that "health" courses had been changed to "sex education." While one of the hot topics was still how to keep unwanted pregnancy from ruining your life, now there was much more detailed information about the body and how it functioned and information about using condoms was being "taught."

Recently I was told that some schools are suggesting same sex relationships, until the consequences of pregnancy were not so severe -- in other words until the student was ready to be married!! Hard to believe homosexuality was actually being suggested by the teacher as an alternative to heterosexual sex to avoid pregnancy. I'd rather believe that the student misunderstood the intent of teaching about homosexuality as an alternative lifestyle.

My point is merely that since the late 1950's a lot has changed in the "sex" education of our children in public schools. Developing curriculum and textbooks was not a short and simple process, but it began because there was a need, percieved by parents, teachers, and administrators. So, I say that the time surely is near when courses about religion will be taught in US public schools. School boards, which are often made up of parents, surely will recognize that the young people of America need to learn about other cultures and their religions. Our children must take their place in the world and I would like to think the teaching of religion will prepare them to be better leaders and voters. Otherwise, we will most likely continue to blunder in place after place after place... turning other cultures and countries against us.

Concerned,

What? Now on ancient Egyptians? You learn something new everyday don't you? At least you are learning and becoming more imaginative now.

You used to post the same posts all over regardless of what the panelists said on any topics.

I like them wingy things too - the Qur'an says they have one to two sets at least. Wondeful creatures and creation of God these angels. Too bad we humans have to get on planes to get here and there.

Pablo :)

I see that you have also been busy in Susan Jacoby's thread.

I don't know about Victoria, but I am really brainwashed. It is now cleansed of fears, prejudices and ignorance I hope.

As for who gave the right for Prophet Muhammad PBUH to question the Bible, I would like to know who gave people like Dan Brown, JD Crossan and James Cameron the right to challenge the fundamental beliefs and dogma of Christianity.

As for Prophet Muhammad PBUH questioning the validity of Bible, I have no idea how he can do that when he is said to be illiterate and hence can't read the Bible. Was the King James Version of the Bible around when the Prophet was around?

The good fruit of Islam is not Fruit of the Loom. But during Ramadan, it is dates.

Let me see, you did say Islam is a cult. Ahh.. a cult is also something fashionable. So, Islam must be in fashion eh? Want to be a Muslim? So easy. All you got to say in front of Pamela, Victoria and me is, "There is no God but God and Muhammad is His Messenger".

But if your intention is not to convert to Islam, but to convert us to Christianity, I suppose Victoria and I must get into our suanas or swimming pools to cleanse ourselves of our sins. Do we have to be buck naked to do that in front of you?

A person's writing style and text contents are specific and particular to a person. And Pablo, good to see you here with the current name.

And Victoria, Pablo is just having fun. But you can also have fun back with him/her as ever:)

Angels/devils in any faith are myths being derived from ancient pagan practices. "Google" angels/devils before again claiming angels helped to write the Koran or visited Mary or killed countless numbers of ancient Egyptians. I like the term "wingy things" to put angels/devils in proper perspective.

greg- thank god for your particular brand of insanity- while the criteria of what the media considers newsworthy (if it bleeds it leads) is hardly the best criteria to use for what to teach- but in the real world- its when the questions actually occur-

im happy to think that when some youngsters come to a teacher with tricky questions- one of those teachers will be you-

peace

pablo- im getting to be an old hand at this-

so ill give you my stock answer-

i only repsond to good manners- even if the subject is very abhorrent to me- if framed respectfully and with some degree of consideration-

im happy to respond in my humble capacity-

but i ignore insults and bad manners-

just a friendly template of the rules as i play them-
peace

Robert B,

Tell me about all the good fruit of Islam?

Pablo

well pablo nothing like a good insult to get the engines of intelligent dialogue running!

Victoria,

You sound brainwashed. You are again dogging the questions so I will gine you less questions this time. How do you know Muhammad was a prophet who could could claim to speak for God and sit in judgement of the Word of God?

Pablo

The questions of which religions should be covered has popped up like H&R Block adds during tax season. As a future teacher (yes I'm nuts) I would most likely cover Christianity, Islam and the Jewish faiths first since they get the most headlines right now, the crusades etc. I'd also talk about the Hindu faith, neo paganism, Buddhism etc. The best time to bring them up would be during their holidays, equinox, passover etc... And when the headlines get splashed that sort of thing.

the more im thinking about andrews story the madder im getting- dont think were not sympathetic andrew- were flabbergastd and disgusted and overwhelmed and outraged for your sake-

i did volunteer work at DAV for a couple years and it was all vietnam vets-i always thought there was an option for peaceful service (like germany or something) or prison for co-s-

man andrew i hope you use your voice and story for something to keep this from happening to other young co-s-

btw- for the record i was imprisoned for seeing a policeman shoot a man down in the street-
so i was standing up for what i felt was justice-

i hope your good outrage can be directed towards injustice-
peace andrew

ANDREW- have you written about your experiences?
they make a powerful case against instituting the draft again-

peace

To Victoria --

I was trying to figure out how to answer Andrew's horrific story without seeming arrogant or unsympathetic. Thank you for saying what I was thinking so clearly and compassionately.

PABLO- again i dont know how to say it mopre plainly-

Muhammad(pbuh) didnt say ANYTHING in the Qur'an!

He didnt write it! its not his words or opinions!!!

your complaint is what you think Muhammad(pbuh) wrote and he just didnt write it-

muslims arent following what Muhammad(pbuh) said about Jesus(ata) but what the QURAN SAYS ABOUT JESUS(ATA)!!!

AGAIN- Muhammad(pbuh) did not make any statements in the Quran-

the Qur'an was revealed as the word of ALLAH through the angel Gabriel(Jibreel) TO Muhammad(pbuh)
and is not written BY Muhammad(pbuh)

He is not the author-

ANDREW- the issue of being discriminated against is shared by many people-
when one group says their suffering is more important or pronounced or of greater value than others- that is where is gets dicey-

i was also imprisoned wrongly by my government and suffered from it-and other things too- but i can choose to stay angry and be a victim or use that experience to develop more compassion- for others who suffer.

I personally think if you feel discriminated when you see money or hear gods name mentioned you are being far too thin-skinned and need to give the same tolerance you are expecting.

There are others with horrific stories- believe it or not worse than yours-

its what we learn from these experiences and how we act after weve walked through the fire that counts-

Robert B: those things you exclude are offensive in the extreme. Having your religion on the money and in the pledge is imposed religion whether ot not you're willing to admit. These things are un-American and anit-American.

More seriously, churches pay no property taxes and therefore receive police and fire protection and a host of other services free of charge. 45 million secular Americans are forced to subsidize religion because of this exmption.

On an extremely serious note, I was raised as an atheist pacifist - maybe 100 of us in the entire country. When I was drafted in 1969, I applied for conscientious objector status like the Quakers and others. The Quakers and others got their CO status, but I did not. There was no provision in the law for CO status not based on religion. I refused to serve. The court acknowledged that I was a pacifist but said the law was clear - my choices were the military or jail. As I had been raised, I chose jail where I spent 10 months being beaten and raped by the good 'Christian' gentlemen of the Aryan Brotherhood. I've had to wear dentures for 38 years because they kicked nmy teeth out, I have 14 scars from stab wounds and 27 scars from cigarette and cigar burns. Don't you dare tell me that atheists are not discriminated against - don't you dare.

Andrew:

You said : "Now, these day, Muslims and homosexuals are the bogeypeople of choice, so we atheists are mostly left alone. I'm sure, however, as our numbers continue to grow, that the whack jobs of whatever persuasion will come after us again at some point."

I can see that already here in the On Faith threads, albeit, in writing so far. Admittedly, I do have fun taking on some atheists here who call believers stupid or delusional for believing in God and religion. And those who call Muslims violent and Islam the evil religion.

Frankly, atheists are the least of my concern as the extremists and retrogressives among my co-religionists is more immediate and have direct impact on me. But these Christian fundies, determined to carry on their crusade in the form of clash of civilization, the west vs. Islam etc., are naive not to think that some Muslims would not react, either in jest or in seriousness.

Their hysterical tone here amazed me - they ask Muslims to see that Jesus is love when they spew hatred. Muslims knows that Jesus preached love, which however, is not displayed by some of his followers here.

Fortunately, there are many more good Christians, Jews and atheists. Our common enemy are those who seek to ridicule, vilify and persecute us for being different and for our beliefs regardless if they are our own co-religionists or others. They push us to conflicts for End of Days and Armageddon and such.

We all know this already. But let them over-extend themselves in hating everyone from gays, to blacks, to Muslims, to Jews to Mexican illegals to Mormons to Unitarians to atheists. That is a lot of hate for some believers who purport to espouse love and the truth.

To Pablo --

You said, "Jesus told me that I would know a tree by its fruit. The fruit I see is evil."

I think your problem is your eyes. You only see the fruit that you wish to see or that you are told to look at.

Victoria,

You are dodging the issue. Who gave Muhammad the right to question the Bible?

Again, the Jesus Muslims talk about is not the Jesus of the Bible. Muslims and the Qur’an deny that Jesus is the Son of God. I do not believe that God spoke to Muhammad. Muhammad made a statement in the Qur'an that is a direct attack on John 3:16 the most popular verse in the Bible. Muhammad attacked the word of God as follows:

“Say: ‘GOD is One, the Eternal God. He begot none, nor was He begotten. None is equal to Him” (Qur’an 112:1-4).

The Bible says:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him” (John 3:16-17).

These both cannot be correct. Why should I believe Muhammad heard form God when what John said is consistent with the Old Testament? Isaiah the prophet of God said:

“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6).

Muhammad contradicts both the Old and the New Testaments. As I said before all cults attack Jesus at the nature of who He is.

Prove to me that Muhammad was correct when he questioned the validly of the Bible. All that Muslims seem to do is avoid this issue just like you have above. Tell me why there is so much murder in the Muslim world that is ruled be the "religion of peace." Where is the love in Islam? Where is the loving of one's enemies that Jesus prescribed? Where is the joy in Islam? All I see is anger, hatred, and murder. Jesus told me that I would know a tree by its fruit. The fruit I see is evil. Please prove all this wrong. Please prove that Muhammad is a true prophet?

Are these questions going to be ignored again? There have been three responses to what I have said but all three have ignored the issue. ¿qué pasa?

Pablo

Pamela,

You need to consider the facts of preparing textbooks for public schools, especially for large markets like Texas.

My late father spent his career editing and trying to sell textbooks in those markets.

Texas is notorious. They have a state textbook commission that goes line-by-line through any textbook that is proposed to be sold there. Texas is an "adoption" state. Unless the textbook is "adopted" by the commission it can't be sold to any public school in Texas.

My father spent agonizing hours and days trying to cope with the inane and insane demands for Texas changes in texts that had been selling without incident all over the country. Special editions had to be printed for Texas.

The commission always zeroed in on the current hot-button topics: the cold war, communism, even the civil war.

You couldn't call the conflict "The Civil War." It had to be "The War Between the States."

Religion will bring out the worst impulses of the Texas Commission. I can guarantee you that no religious text will be bought for Texas schools unless it gives Protestant fundamentalism a favored and esteemed place.

Worst of all, a number of textbook companies (not my father's) make the Texas edition their standard edition for the whole country. It saves them money, but it subjects students everywhere to the Texas-approved doctrine on controversial topics.

You can be sure that if religion courses are mandated, students across the country will be learning, not Christianity, not Judaism, not Islam, but "Religion Texas-style."

Taylor's approach is the one I would use.

To Andrew --

You said, "What makes atheists angry is imposed religion, and that we do have in the U.S...any atheist who has live 'out' in public has probably experience discrimination or harassment of some kind."

Forgive me for asking, but how has religion been imposed on you and your fellow atheists. And please don't tell me about "under God" in the pledge or "In God We Trust" on the money; those don't force you to actually say you believe anything.

Jihadist-

I am an atheist, but I don't care that you believe in god or allah. That's your business not mine. I don't care what Christians believe or Jews or Buddhists or Wiccans or whoever. It's not my business. I actually believe in religious freedom. We don't have it here in the U.S. and probably never will, but it is still what I believe.

What makes atheists angry is imposed religion, and that we do have in the U.S. There are as many atheists here as all Jews, Muslims and Hindus combined - any atheist who has live 'out' in public has probably experience discrimination or harassment of some kind. Now, these day, Muslims and homosexuals are the bogeypeople of choice, so we atheists are mostly left alone. I'm sure, however, as our numbers continue to grow, that the whack jobs of whatever persuasion will come after us again at some point.

Ba'al wrote: Is Pamela sending out that old atheism = communism canard?

No, that wasn't my intention, though reading over what I posted I can see how someone might think it was. Rather I was free associating about what I consider to have been two of the biggest holes in my own education at what could arguably be called one of the better public school systems in America.

I grew up in the middle of the Cold War, on the tail end of Vietnam, and yet I can remember no mention whatsoever in any class of what communism was. Unless I slept through that portion of class (which is dimly possible), we never discussed the Russian Revolution, though we did cover Europe from WWI to WWII. We never read Marx or any other communist (or even socialist) thinker. I'm still astounded that we never learned anything about it, especially given we were at war with anyone who dared espouse it.

Similarly, my education had a dearth of information about world cultures and religions. The courses about "world history" were actually European history, with an extremely brief visit to mesopotamia and egypt (mesopotamia being the cradle out of which european civilization climbed, and Egypt being integrally entwined with Rome). China, India, Africa, South America all might as well have been non-existent.

Fortunately, this latter one has been remedied in my daughter's public schools. While the studies may be cursory, she has at least been exposed to different cultures and histories of non-Western societies. Religion has been a bit hit and miss, and I think communism and socialism are still off the page completely.

Bobster -- I guess I have more faith in the American people than you do. Yes there are a few wackos out there, but mostly the people who attended the school board meetings and PTA meetings I have attended are reasonable folks who are trying to ensure all our children the best education they can have while coping with shrinking budgets, overstressed families, and the competition of pop culture.

Things have become more strident and divided in our country over the past few decades, but I still believe that the vast majority of Americans are tolerant, open-minded, and good willed.

Finally, as to how/who would teach such courses. I would assume that textbooks would be prepared by academics in the field, much as physics texts books are written by professor of physics, history textbooks are written by history professors, so too textbooks dealing with religious subjects would be written by professors of religion from acredited universities.

Ms. Taylor,

No disrespect intended, but your ideas would not work in present day america. In my opinion.
Have you attended a school board meeting lately? My work takes me into many schools at all grades. I see parents who act worse than their kids when it comes to something they don't like. Can you imagine what "religion" in the classroom would do to some of these people? An open minded and civil discussion on religion is impossible with a large group of people in my experience. You mentioned "values" in schools. They don't go hand and hand anymore. Now its the School of "Political Correctness". And Doctor Feel Goods theory, "If it feels good then do it!" Unfortunately, I see the same closed minded behaviors at the colleges. No-one dares to speak about religion at these so called places of higher education unless one wants to be yelled at and called names. Yet these same self described "liberal and free thinkers" will tell you all day long how openminded and educated they are. Go figure.

As a perfect example of a sentence being taken out of context- and an entire idea constructed around it by interperting it literaly as if it were whole-

Religion is the opiate of the masses-

Marx wasnt making a condemantion of religion per se-
the content of the rest of his statement clarifies that he wasnt speaking about religion as an institution to be invalidated by is snippet-
he was discussing the issue of religion being USED by the powers that be to CONTROL the population so that social injustices and economic injustices could be continued unquestioned.
Marx wasnt making a point about the validity of religion as so often misunderstood- but calling to account how society trwats its masses and distracts and leads them into obedience without criticism.

See the difference? This example supports the statement that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing- and also that ignorance is bliss.

That is how Marx was wrong in that assertion- because it wasnt asn assertion about religions rightness or wrongness but a condemnation of its abuse by society.

that was an easy and convenient example.

ISTM that niether small kowledge or ignorance are desirable- and the only way to counter theand especially fear that leads to ignorance justified-
is more knowledge.

Ive taught and a course to adults about the different religions of the world-
adults have different questions than children-
and it was possible to make a presentation with denigrating or being a proponent of any given religion to the tougher adult audience.
It is much more difficult to unteach bigotry and much more desirable to offer tolerance as an alternative to young minds.

PABLO- here is a simple answer to one of your statements-
Muhammad(eace be upon him) didnt write the holy book the Qur'an. He was a meesenger and prophet of god.
The Qur'an was the word of ALLAH brought TO Muhammad by the intermediary angel Gabriel(Jibreel) and wasnt BY Muhammad.

Your belief in the divine origin of the Qur'an isnt a necessary element in you understanding how it came to be. Many muslims the world over believe this to be so-
See? you didnt have to change your own belief system for that knowledge to enter your consciousness-
learning what others believe doesnt force us to take up their beliefs- but it does lead to understanding of our global neighbors.

I admit freely Jihadist that i can still sing jingles from cereal commercials that i heard as a child- and situation comedy themes songs- and broadcast identification songs- and----

ashfaq: "Was Moses (Peace be upon him) a Christian? Did Jesus (Peace be upon him) call himself a Christian? No! They submitted themselves to Allah. They were Muslims."

Actually, they were both Jewish.

BTW: Allah = means God in Arabic
Islam = means Submission to God in Arabic

After reading the posts above I realize that ignorance and hatred is so prevalent (especially against Islam and Muslims) that just the religion of Islam requires one semester at the least. Why are people so afraid of the truth? There is no god worthy of worship except the One and Only Allah and Muhammad (Peace be upon him) is the final messenger of Allah. Remember Moses (Peace be upon him) and the ten commandments. The first commandment is "I am the Lord your God, you shall have no other gods before me." Another verse from the Bible "The First is, Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is One..." (Mark 12:29). Was Moses (Peace be upon him) a Christian? Did Jesus (Peace be upon him) call himself a Christian? No! They submitted themselves to Allah. They were Muslims. The people of today who worship Jesus (Peace be upon him) as God are like the idol worshippers during the times of the Pharoah and Moses (Peace be upon him). They worship him when they should worship Allah only. The teachings of Christianity and Judaism are corrupt and the final word of God which is the Quran is uncorruptable and will remain so until the Day of Judgment. So come to the truth!

Dear Jihadist,Citibank market value 4000 billion dollars any bank in islamic countries 2 or 3 bil.dol...Germany population 82 millions GDP 3000 bil.dol.Pakistan pop.170 mil.GDP 475 bil.dol...Sweden pop.9 mil.GDP 370 bil.dol.Eygpt pop.78 mil.GDP 300 bil.dol...USA founded in 1774,230 years old state went to Moon.Iran 5000 years old counrty women couldnt go to stadium...State of New York pop.19 mil.there are 150 universities,Syria pop.19 mil there are only four universities...Dear Jihadist,DO you understand this situation?...Dear Jihadist,what shall westerners learn from islamis world exempt terror and backwardness???

I don't mind if Islam is taught as an evil cult and satanic belief in American high schools. Those kids into black metal and rebelling against parents would all go for it.

But think of all the money the parents would have to spend to deprogramme the kids from the evil, satanic cult.

As for religion being the opiate of the masses according to Marx, well, it is free. One can indulge in it anytime, anywhere without getting busted by the police. Alcohol and drugs, including opium, cost money, including for legal fees if caught in drug possession and abuse.

Some atheists wants me to get off the delusion of God. So, I'm thinking whether to go to their deprogramming programme first to get off my delusions of God, or to the other People of the Book's deprogramming programme to get myself off the evil, satanic cult.

Choice, choice, choice. But, hmmmm, I'll stick with the evil, satanic, cult with delusions of God thrown in for free. It's more exciting and dangerous methinks, and ohh.. so appealing with all that sex and violence too.

Everytime I read some posts in Pamela Taylor's, Susan Jacoby's and Cal Thomas' threads, I think world cultures should be made compulsory in schools from six years old onwards.

Non-westerners are more familiar with western culture/religions and thought than westerners are of others. Do pause and think that through your own mass media and knowledge of your language, others know you more than you know them. Is that good or bad for you?

Who made the statement below?

"Remember what risk the nations of Europe ran, not so many centuries ago, of being overwhelmed by the Turk, and how ridiculous such an idea now is! The more civilized so-called Caucasian races have beaten the Turkish hollow in the struggle for existence. Looking to the world at no very distant date, what an endless number of the lower races will have been eliminated by the higher civilized races throughout the world."

Pablo

Shellie-Ann,

Again, religion is already being taught in are schools. They are called, Political Correctness and Evolution. Political Correctness is a set of beliefs that says that certain things are right and certain things are wrong. Evolution has no empirical proof; therefore, it belongs in the realm of faith not science. Can a scientist take the creation of the world and weigh or measure it in repeatable experiments?

Pablo

halozcel,

What have you said that has proved anything wrong that I posted above. Please refute the arguments and when can move on from there. Prove to me that Muhammad was correct when he questioned the validly of the Bible. Tell me why there is so much murder in the Muslim world that is ruled be the "religion of peace." Where is the love in Islam? Where is the loving of one's enemies that Jesus prescribed? Where is the joy in Islam? All I see is anger, hatred, and murder. Jesus told me that I would know a tree by its fruit. The fruit I see is evil. Please prove all this wrong. Please prove that Muhammad is a true prophet???? You have not answered these questions.

Pablo

Dear James,

Please tell us on what basis you make your argument? One what basis do you argue that there is morality? On what basis do you argue there is any wisdom at all? On what basis do you argue that there should be any compassion at all? On what basis do you argue that there is any intelligence at all? What I mean by this is what is the source of all these things? On what do wisdom, morality, intelligence, and compassion rest? Opinion? If that is true who decides what is right or wrong? You? What I have said is not based on my opinion it is based on the Word of God. It is based on God who is the source of all things. I do not speak on my own authority I speak based on the word of God. You speak based on your own authority. Are you God? Why are you trying to act like God if there is no God?

Pablo

Andrew,

You imply God does not exist and say there is no word of God as though you are God. In fact, to make that statement you have to have the characteristics of God. You would have to be omnipresent and able to search the entire universe and beyond at the same time to know that there is no God. That would mean that you would have to be all-knowing. It is so evident that God exists that you have to bury your head in the sand to not see Him.

Pablo

I went to Catholic school in South Texas, and the nun who taught theology also had us all research various religions of the world. Without one word of condemnation of these religions. If Catholics can do it, why not the public school systems? Cultural diversity and respect is being taught now in my son's elementary school, can comparative theology be far behind? Proponents for religious education just need to be more vocal than the "religious [I'm] right".

To Pablo,God loves you.He loves all peoples.It is unfortunately not correct.God,Father of Jesus Christ,loves those who baptized Mark 16.16.and those who are not baptized(seventyfive per cent of world population) will be condemned.His Son,Shepherd loves the sheep such as exactly written.Shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.Math 25.32....someone says False Quote.Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends 5.51.is it False?.Abraham was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was upright Muslim 3.67.what does it mean?...Today World Women Day,I wish nice life for all women without beating and humiliatian(Timothy 2.12 and Quran 4.34)please dont beat them,please love them.Women,When you walk through a storm,Hold your HEAD UP HIGH,and dont be afraid of THE DARK.

Asim, Pablo, Andrew, and James are all examples of why religion should stay out of schools and in the home (of those who wish to have it in their home).

Religion is too personal to be taught to the young through the school system. If taught, maybe highschool is a good place to put it. However, I stand by my inital comment, religion being kept seperate from school is a good thing.

The idea of teaching about religion in separate, dedicated courses, even if electives, is probably a good idea theoretically, but not such a good idea practically. Teaching about religion will obviously make the students more aware of why other people believe the way they do. I, for one, would love to understand what on earth motivates people to deny reality and even somehow find value in believing the most ridiculous fantasies, the more ridiculous, the greater the merit in believing them.

But what would happen with dedicated courses is that the vocal minorities most deeply involved in their religion will try to control the content and disrupt the attempt to intellectualize religions rather than proselytize for them. This will inevitably defeat the purpose. As was suggested above, incorporating the information in history and social studies courses is probably a more effective way to go. We already have some schools teaching religion courses using material prepared by one of the fundamentalist groups. Teaching religion courses will just allow more of that to happen, even though the purpose is different.

Pablo

Your post is offensive to those of us who do not believe as you do.

Ther is no evidence that you have superior knowledge, morality, intelligence, wisdom, or compassion
compared to your fellow humans.

Stop preaching as though you do.
You make a fool of yourself.

There is no need to teach religions in public schools. Religion is and should be a private matter. It's not like students have not enough on their plate learning the real good stuff like maths and science and languages.

Failing that we should only be teaching the truly pacifist religions such as Jainism and Buddhism and Hare Krishnaism. But that would mean we leave out Islam. Just too bad.

Pablo-

Of course Muslims don't believe that Jesus was the son of god - they're NOT Christians. I am an atheist - I don't belive in god much less in a son of a god. Indeed, altogether, 75 million Americans do not belive that Jesus was the son of god. There is no such thing as the word of god - you have simply chosen to believe that it is. So where does this lead, you put all 75 million of us in camps, kill us, take our children from us so you can indoctrinate them, what?

And, please do not wish your religion on us. It is extremely offensive. Wishing it on us is the first step toward imposing it on us

Asim,

Tell us which verse that Concerned the Christian is quoting that is wrong. Making a statement does not make something true. Prove what you have asserted about what he or she has said. It is my guess that you will either not respond to this challenge or you will offer a straw man argument like the Qur'an can only be understood by those who know Arabic.

The Jesus Muslims talk about is not the Jesus of the Bible. Muslims and the Qur’an deny that Jesus is the Son of God. Muhammad made a statement in the Qur'an that is a direct attack on John 3:16 the most popular verse in the Bible. Muhammad attacked the word of God as follows:

“Say: ‘GOD is One, the Eternal God. He begot none, nor was He begotten. None is equal to Him” (Qur’an 112:1-4).

If someone were to do that to the Qur’an in the Muslim world they would be dead. All cults including Islam attack Jesus at the nature of who He is and so it is with the cult of Islam.

Prove to me that Muhammad was correct when he questioned the validly of the Bible. All that Muslims seem to do is put up straw men arguments. If anyone questions what Muhammad said most Muslims resort to personal attacks and violence especially if there are enough Muslims in the society. Tell me why there is so much murder in the Muslim world that is ruled be the "religion of peace." Where is the love in Islam? Where is the loving of one's enemies that Jesus prescribed? Where is the joy in Islam? All I see is anger, hatred, and murder. Jesus told me that I would know a tree by its fruit. The fruit I see is evil. Please prove all this wrong. Please prove that Muhammad is a true prophet????

Pablo

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him” (John 3:16-17).

God loves you Asim. He loves all people and you can know Him personally. I pray that you will.

Its OK to teach ABOUT religion...but its who is doing the teaching that I would worry about.
Sam Harris would teach it one way,and the pope would teach it another.And a muslim cleric another and so on.
I guess I would prefer to be taught about religion by a learned atheist who would be cooly objective about it all.

Pamela,

not only should schools teach about religion but they should teach the truth about the religion and its founders.

Islam is a classic example whose study would immensely benefit children especially Muslim children.

Islam has more recorded history than other faiths being the most recent of faiths. The life, words and deeds of Muhammad have been accurately recorded.

It would be interesting if schools taught about Muhammad in a historical way using only Muslim sources such as the Koran, the hadiths and Sirat Rasulallah, the first biography about Muhammad.

When Muslim children learn that Muhammad was a pedophile, a murderer who murdered thousands of innocent people including 12 year old Jewish boys of the Banu Qurayza tribe of Jews, that he owned slaves and even determined the price of white complexioned slave girls, that he had a son out of wedlock from his Coptic Christian concubine Maria, will these children remain Muslim.

Here's a thought: You could teach the major religions, and then have each student present a paper on one of the lesser (less numerous) religions. This way, the students won't have to retain all the information (which they won't anyway) to retain the idea that the search for God takes many forms.

And, hey, they might find one they like better.

Cncnd the xtian,
Any muslim knows a lot more about Christianity and Judaism than you will ever know about Islam: it’s integral to a Muslim's faith to believe in Moses, Jesus and the father of all monotheistic faiths Abraham the grand prophet, as they indeed do about the Prophet Muhammad; So stop repeating your false "quotes from the Quran" about Muslims and the Quran hating Christians and Jews: Muslims don't hate either, however and like any body else, Muslims will resist and fight those who aggress upon them, occupy their land and destroy their homes.

That is why I agree with Pamela and Victoria: Education...Education...Neutral non-biased tolerant education to our children about the other's religion and culture, so no fear…no apprehension and no wars.

Is Pamela sending out that old atheism = communism canard?

We hear that one a lot.

Yes, I think it is important to include atheism, just we ought to be teaching communist economic theory in economics classes.

Pamela,
Amen selah b'emet
we have to teach imena take a look at this sitiation i'm sitting in a philosphy in literiture class earlier tis year and i say some thing about orthodox VS reform Judaism and some one asks me is the diffrence between them that the orthodox believe that Jesus was the Mosiaich. unfortuatly the bell rings before I can iexplain that no Jews believe that. this sitiuation happened in a very diverse cream of the crop Magnet highschool it scares me...... it really does ignorance is a dangerous thing

Our schools are already teaching the religions of Political Correcness and Evolution.

Pablo

To Athena:

You said, "For most non-Western cultures, you can't separate the culture from the religion."

You can't really do it with Western civilization either. Whether we like it or not, Judeo-Christian thought has shaped our own society as much as Islam has shaped the Middle East or Hinduism has shaped India.

One wonders what words of Judaism, Buddhism and Christian wisdom are taught in Islamic "public" schools run/controlled by the crazy mullahs of Iraq, Iran, Egypt and Pakistan?

Perfect evaulation. We need to teach about religion and then people can make up their own minds.

Deb Chatterje,

The question about why religion should be taught is, of course, the key question. Others have provided excellent insights already. My thought is that the best reason is to be able to expose students to the wonderful diversity of religious expressions which surround the same fundamental truths that lie at the heart of all the great world religions. If we all understood that, there would be less hate in the world.

By the way, wasn't it Groucho Marx who said:

"Power is the opiate of the ruling class."

I've always thought Groucho was smarter than Karl.

There are 46 religion and beliefs at Yahoo groups page from Agnosticism to Zoroastrianism.Who decides which beliefs are covered?.Fear,intolerance,bigotry and hatred thrive in an environment where ignorance reigns.Fear,I will cast FEAR into the hearts...man can scourge woman.Intolerance,take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends.Bigotry,strive hard against the unbelievers,Be harsh with them.Hatred thrive,fight them until persecution is no more.slay them...such is the reward of disbelievers.

And schools should wait until middle or high school before really getting into different faith systems, kids in elementry school simply don't have the capacity to think that abstractly.

Pamela Taylor,

Why teach religion at all ? What is religion ? Why would Karl Marx be wrong to assert: RELIGION IS THE OPIUM OF THE MASSES ?

If you teach about nreligion, you must teach about what is not religion. That's a fair and balanced view, and let students/audience be the judge of what to choose.

You have questions, I have answers.

but those things introduce judgements of the religions- exclusivism being a negative judgement- etc- i think ascribing value judgements to religion would invite unecessary discrimination.

what would be the purpose of teaching religion?
to inculacate a sense of inclusion and tolerance to the kids-

keep it simple and dont make it more than it is-
and the children wont either.

It would be useful to teach children, not just about "major religions" (this just perpetuates the viewpoint that more adherents is somehow meaningful), but about the form of religious life in general.

For example, various religions can be examined through the themes of exclusivism, pluralism, and inclusivism.

I would support religion being taught in a historical and factual context- social studies would open it up to subjective and personal influences of the teacher themself- no one would agree on what negative aspects to include- so simple presentation and objective generic outlines- without the judgements that would accompany a positive OR negative appraisal would let children analyze and come to their own conclusions without being led to or away-

BRAMBLETON-- would we also teach that buddhist monks are taught to imagine women slowly degenerating into old age and then their corrupted decomposition of their bodies? would we teach that hindu women are burned alive on funeral pyres when their husbands die?
that christian scientists refuse medical treatments for their children- or jehovahs witnesses refuse blood transfusions? how about snake handlers who get bitten in their performance of their rituals? or the thousands of catholic martyred saints and their brutal and gruesome deaths? or the many violent and inhumane passages from the old testament? or the insane mutilation of young female genitalia in some places?

Every religion has its positive and negatives.
Teach childre how to be critical thinkers- then present the basics- without judgement- and let them come to their own conclusions.

Instead of dividing young minds with negative examples- it would be certainly superior to give a synopsis of the many constants that all relgions have in common-
peace

Brambleton, I agree with your fundamental point. I am not sure that you or I could ever agree how to teach a cursory review. Interestingly, you might be even more upset by the decisions that would be made by a Christian with very different views on Christianity than your own. (I at least have no dog in that fight).

It is a minefield for any teacher. A very talented teacher could probably do it.

Brambleton,

You'd have to pick 'major' religions. There's too many to do otherwise. Choose an arbitrary number of adherents and any religion larger than that is taught.

I'd aim for two types of units. One would focus on theology, basic beliefs, rituals and values in a very objective manner, ala Islam for Dummies, or the Complete Idiots Guide to Buddhism. The other type of unit could look at the sociological aspects from the Crusades and the Inquisition to blashpemy laws in Egypt and Afghanistan, to the rise of Hindu funamentalism. I think it is important for students to think about why certain ideas are wildly appealling beyond a simplisitic "they are idiots or minions of Satan" way. Understanding the dynamics of the human mind and human society can lead to a far more intelligent decision making process.

Put religion into a history, social studies or "world cultures" context, not a separate course. For most non-Western cultures, you can't separate the culture from the religion. For example, we learned about Africa in my 10th grade "World Cultures" class. We talked about various religions, including the indigenous ones, in the historical context of the region. Unfortunately, recalling the bigotry of some of my classmates, learning about a culture or religion does not always equal understanding. But, it would be a start.

I certainly agree that our public schools should teach our children about different religions, but can you prepare a cursory review of any one religion? And who decides which religions are covered? Are we talking about the "major" religions or every known religion? And who decides what is taught about each religion? Do we discuss just the "positive" values of each religion or do we also include issues such as the death penalty for anyone in Egypt who tries to convert a Muslim? Perhaps, given the sorry state of our public school system, we should focus our attention on the 3R's before we open this Pandora's box.

I think indoctrination of children into medieval or Iron Age cults should be done by parents on their own dime.

At the same time, it is necessary for educated people to be able to read and appreciate great art and literature of the world, and to understand the basis for many ongoing wars and conflicts, and all of those things require education about religion. Maybe we would not be in quite such a mess if our leaders had known something about different groups within Islam.

Ms. Taylor, I agree. Understanding of other cultures should not wait until college when a student can choose to take a class on religon. I'd push for Junior High School myself.
I acknowledge the point the prior poster makes; it will be a rocky road getting this included in the curriculum. However, we can't wait until this country is able to "grow up". Learning about the wide world is part of growing up, and we best get on with it.
Thank you for another interesting article.

Pamela Taylor,

You're absolutely right in what you say.

But pity the poor school board or teacher who does what you suggest.

They will immediately be subjected to intemperate abuse from all sides, who will say that the students are being taught lies about the complainers' religion, or that the teachers are promoting false and demonic theologies.

America will have to grow up a lot before your perfectly reasonable and good ideas can successfully be put into practice,