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Muslims for progressive Values.. That is truly funny. Muslims are the least progressive of anything (That's even compared to glaciers). They like the 10th century and want to stay there. Generally as a culture, they produce nothing, do nothing but kill, advance no where, contribute nothing. That fancy title of your post is just about meaningless.

Now some individuals in free societies are different and are well thought of for actually doing things, but the culture is plainly stagnant.

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I would also like to know besides fighting for peoples rights, in a peaceful way, what are some of the neogotiations that our prophet has done, we also do neogotiations. How do I also know when the responses will come?? I am very new to this site.

Thank You
Musa A. Mohammad

I would also like to know besides fighting for peoples rights, in a peaceful way, what are some of the neogotiations that our prophet has done, we also do neogotiations. How do I also know when the responses will come?? I am very new to this site.

Thank You
Musa A. Mohammad

I am a union organizer..and a question was put before me: how does Islam coinside with my work as a organizer, A organizer fights for peoples rights...can you give me some information on Muhammad fighting for the rights of wormen as well as camels and the belief of one god..

Thank YOu

Musa A. Mohammad

I am a union organizer..and a question was put before me: how does Islam coinside with my work as a organizer, A organizer fights for peoples rights...can you give me some information on Muhammad fighting for the rights of wormen as well as camels and the belief of one god..

Thank YOu

Musa A. Mohammad

What nonsense you spout, Jack Fertig,
The atheists aren't the people killing others for their faith. By 'bellicose' you mean they are keen to tell you that your faith is false, but in no way do they kill or punish you for it. That is the sort of thing Muslims do.

It's really too deliciously ironic, given what a historical turnaround it is:

Nowadays we have so many religious people saying, "live and let live; believe as you like" and atheists are the ones getting bellicose and insulting to anyone who doesn't follow their dogma! So now the religous folks are the free-thinkers?

Bring on the auto-sans-fe!

Pamela is either ignorant or compulsively lying about the fact that "religion can be indiviualized" etc. and etc. Islam does not allow that freedom. The gullible reads the posts of Pamela and gets duped.

I am quoting from DAWN, the newspaper from Pakistan, a letter that specifically deflates the claims by Pamela. This is written by a Muslim and evidently s/he isn't buying the garbage that Pamela is spinning out every week. (I cannot fathom why Washington Post is wasting the bandwidth.)

Anyway here it goes ...

The link is: http://www.dawn.com/2007/06/01/letted.htm#2

The text of the letter (from DAWN) is verbatim as follows:

Apostasy law

IN HIS column, ‘Apostasy law and its hazards’ (May 27), Kunwar Idris has referred to an incident pertaining to a man from a tribe of infidels, who had recited the ‘Kalima’ just before he was killed in the battlefield by Usama bin Zaid.

Upon learning of the slaying, the Prophet (PBUH) admonished him, saying Usama could not have been a judge of whether the man had truly accepted Islam or recited it merely to escape death. From this, Mr Idris has tried to prove indirectly that those who turn back from Islam, that is, commit apostasy, cannot be given the capital punishment.

However, there is a clear saying of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) on the subject given in Bukhari and Muslim, of which he must be aware:

The shedding of the blood of a Muslim is not lawful except for one of three reasons: a life for a life, a married person who commits `zina’ (adultery) and one who turns aside from his religion and abandons the community.

A scholar from Al-Azhar has elaborated the matter by saying that no one is compelled to accept Islam, but at the same time no one is permitted to play tricks with it. Another scholar had explained it by saying that treason is punishable by death even in non-Muslim countries. However, the death penalty for apostasy can be given only to men, whereas women are liable to imprisonment while children are not punishable that way, either.

The writer has also wrongly claimed that nobody was punished for apostasy during the Prophet’s (PBUH) or the four Righteous Caliphs’ times. It often happened that the Makkans made a profession of faith to enter Madinah, but after spying for information returned to Makkah and threw off Islam. When captured, they were condemned to execution. Soon after Prophet Muhammad’s (PBUH) death, several false prophets had arisen. Caliph Abu Bakr sent out Khalid bin Waleed, who was able to convert back two tribes of the followers of Tulaiha. The apostate himself first fought against the general but later on accepted Islam.

However, the case of the apostate couple, Musailma and his wife Sajah (another false prophetess), was different. Musailma used to recite before the people meaningless sentences and claim these were divine revelations and had also legalised adultery and wine. Troops were dispatched to fight against them under Hazrat Khalid and the false prophet was killed after a very tough battle.

ZAKIR AHMED
Karachi

Fellow Americans,

The Muslims are saying "Death to America", "We love death as they love life", "The best death is to kill in Allah's cause", "Islam will rule the earth".

It is time we listen to what our enemies are saying.

http://www.gisburne.com/ngchannel.php

HL,
You're engaging in the logical fallacy of argumenta ad verecundiam.

Who cares how some people, for reasons of their own, sugar-coat Muhammad and Islam?

If you care to notice, few if any of those people ever converted to Islam no matter how they laud Muhammad to the heavens.

I'd much rather read the Quran and the Muslim historical sources for myself to find out - or read what clearly knowledgeable people like Qasim Omar is telling us. He seems to be more knowledgeable on Islam than any of those people you listed.

One only has to look at the behavior of your prophet in killing and enslaving his opponents to know that he wasn't a nice man.

More noteworthy quotations about Islam & the prophet of Islam by non-Muslims

'I believe in One God and Mohammed the Apostle of God,' is the simple and invariable profession of Islam. The intellectual image of the Deity has never been degraded by any visible idol; the honors of the prophet have never transgressed the measure of human virtue, and his living precepts have restrained the gratitude of his disciples within the bounds of reason and religion." Edward Gibbon and Simon Ocklay, HISTORY OF THE SARACEN EMPIRE, London, 1870, p. 54.

"The doctrine of brotherhood of Islam extends to all human beings, no matter what color, race or creed. Islam is the only religion which has been able to realize this doctrine in practice. Muslims wherever on the world they are will recognize each other as brothers."
R. L. Mellema, Holland, Anthropologist, Writer and Scholar.

"Medieval Islam was technologically advanced and open to innovation. It achieved far higher literacy rates than in contemporary Europe; it assimilated the legacy of classical Greek civilization to such a degree that many classical books are now known to us only through Arabic copies. It invented windmills, trigonometry, lateen sails and made major advances in metallurgy, mechanical and chemical engineering and irrigation methods. In the middle-ages the flow of technology was
overwhelmingly from Islam to Europe rather from Europe to Islam. Only after the 1500's did the net direction of flow begin to reverse." Jared Diamond, UCLA sociologist, and physiologist who won the Pulitzer Prize for his book: "Guns, Germs, and Steel."

THE PROPHET OF ISLAM
"Muhammad is the most successful of all Prophets and religious personalities." Encyclopedia Britannica

"The founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammed. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?"Lamartine, Historie de la Turquie, Paris 1854, Vol. 11 pp. 276-277

"I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of
existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion for from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Savior of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today."
George Bernard Shaw, THE GENUINE ISLAM.

"My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular level."
Michael H. Hart, THE 100: A RANKING OF THE MOST INFLUENTIAL PERSONS IN HISTORY, New York: Hart Publishing Company, Inc., 1978, p. 33.

"In little more than a year he was actually the spiritual, nominal and temporal rule of Medina, with his hands on the lever that was to shake the world." John Austin, MUHAMMAD THE PROPHET OF
ALLAH in T.P.'s and Cassel's Weekly for 24th September 1927.

"Four years after the death of Justinian, A.D. 569, was born at Mecca, in Arabia the man who, of all men exercised the greatest influence upon the human race... Mohammed."
John William Draper, M.D., L.L.D., A History of the Intellectual Development of Europe, London 1875, Vol.1, pp.329-330

"Muhammad was the soul of kindness, and his influence was felt and never forgotten by those around him." Diwan Chand Sharma, The Prophets of the East, Calcutta 1935, p. l 22.

"People like Pasteur and Salk are leaders in the first sense. People like Gandhi and Confucius, on one hand, and Alexander, Caesar and Hitler on the other, are leaders in the second and perhaps the third sense. Jesus and Buddha belong in the third category alone. Perhaps the greatest leader of all times was Mohammed, who combined all three functions. To a lesser degree, Moses did the same."
Professor Jules Masserman

"He was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without Pope's pretensions, Caesar without the legions of Caesar: without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue; if ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by the right divine, it was Mohammed, for he had all the power without its instruments and without its supports." Bosworth Smith, MOHAMMAD AND MOHAMMADANISM, London, 1874, p. 92.

"It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great Prophet of Arabia, who knows how he taught and how he lived, to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel whenever I re-read them, a new way of admiration, a new sense of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher." Annie Besant, THE
LIFE AND TEACHINGS OF MUHAMMAD, Madras, 1932, p. 4.

SOME MORE QUOTATIONS:
I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind.... I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet the scrupulous regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the second volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of that great life.
Mahatma Gandhi, statement published in 'Young India,'1924:

He was the most faithful protector of those he protected, the sweetest and most agreeable in conversation. Those who saw him were suddenly filled with reverence; those who came near him loved him; they who described him would say, "I have never seen his like either before or after." He was of great taciturnity, but when he spoke it was with emphasis and deliberation, and no one could forget what he said...
Lane-Poole in 'Speeches and Table Talk of the Prophet Muhammad':

His military triumphs awakened no pride nor vain glory as they would have done had they been effected by selfish purposes. In the time of his greatest power he maintained the same simplicity of manner and appearance as in the days of his adversity. So far from affecting regal state, he was displeased if, on entering a room, any unusual testimonial of respect was shown to him.
Washington Irving in 'Life of Muhammad,' New York, 1920:

“Like almost every major prophet before him, Muhammad fought shy of serving as the transmitter of God’s word sensing his own inadequacy. But the Angel commanded ‘Read’. So far as we know, Muhammad was unable to read or write, but he began to dictate those inspired words which would soon revolutionize a large segment of the earth: "There is one God"."
“In all things Muhammad was profoundly practical. When his beloved son Ibrahim died, an eclipse occurred and rumors of God's personal condolence quickly arose. Whereupon Muhammad is said to have announced, ‘An eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish to attribute such things to the death or birth of a human being'."
“At Muhammad's own death an attempt was made to deify him, but the man who was to become his administrative successor killed the hysteria with one of the noblest speeches in religious history: ‘If there are any among you who worshiped Muhammad, he is dead. But if it is God you Worshiped, He lives for ever'.”
James Michener in ‘Islam: The Misunderstood Religion,’ Reader’s Digest, May 1955, pp. 68-70:

Incidentally these well-established facts dispose of the idea so widely fostered in Christian writings that the Muslims, wherever they went, forced people to accept Islam at the point of the sword.
Lawrence E. Browne in ‘The Prospects of Islam,’ 1944:

"During all the first part of the Middle Ages, no other people made as
important a contribution to human progress as did the Arabs, if we take this term to mean all those whose mother-tongue was Arabic, and not merely those living in the Arabian peninsula. For centuries, Arabic was the language of learning, culture and intellectual progress for the whole of the civilized world with the exception of the Far East. From the IXth to the XIIth century there were more philosophical, medical, historical, religious, astronomical and geographical works written in Arabic than in any other human tongue."
Phillip Hitti in 'Short History of the Arabs:

"Despite the growth of antagonism, Moslem (Muslim) rulers seldom made their Christian subjects suffer for the Crusades. When the Saracens finally resumed the full control of Palestine the Christians were given their former status as dhimmis. The Coptic Church, too had little cause for complaint under Saladin's (Salahuddin) strong government, and during the time of the earlier Mameluke sultans who succeeded him the Copts experienced more enlightened justice than they had hitherto known. The only effect of the Crusaders upon Egyptian Christians was to keep them for a while from
pilgrimage to Jerusalem, for as long as the Frank were in charge heretics were forbidden access to the shrines. Not until the Moslem victories could they enjoy their rights as Christians."
James Addison in 'The Christian Approach to the Moslem,' p. 35

Muhammad's conversion of the polytheists were not as solid as you claimed. When he died, a large number rejected Islam and had to be brought back into the Islamic fold by Caliph Abu Bakr in the "Riddah Wars".

Islam was spread by and large by the sword. Muhammad spread Islam by the sword. All the early caliphs spread Islam by the sword. Many of those early converts were nothing more than bandits who lusted after conquest and loot and the promise of the heavenly brothel.

If a heavenly brothel is 'spiritual' I'm afraid most people would not hold Islamic 'spirituality' in high regard. Personally, I don't see how Islam is in any way 'spiritual'. There is nothing spiritual in Islam at all - chanting five times a day while knocking yourself silly on the floor is not spiritual in my book. Nor believing in a God that cannot stop his own 'propaganda'.

Islam sallied forth on the backs of scimitar-wielding armies. The early spread of Islam was very bloodthirsty indeed.

Please see it from our point of view - not yours because you are blind to the misdeeds of your prophet and religion. The hatred and violence in Islam is so evident. The greatest trick Satan ever made was creating Islam.

Also - race consciousness was not made extinct in Islam - please don't fool yourself. Other religions (i.e. true religions of peace like Buddhism) are far better than Islam on the issue of race. I think you need to look around at other religions before you hold Islam as the paragon of religions because there are others far superior in most if not all respects.

Muhammad solved his problems by killing people or at least threatening their lives. He solved his problems by enslaving his opponents - even women and children. That kind of problem solving we can do without.

There is no justice in Islam. Plain and simple. How can it be just if a woman is worth half that of a man? How can it be just to persecute non-Muslims? How can it be just to take slaves? How can it be just to punish apostates? How can it be just to fight people who do not choose to believe in Islam?

It was a miracle that Prophet Muhammad could bring even his toughest enemies to the fold of Islam without adequate material resources. Worshippers of idols, blind followers of the ways of forefathers, promoters of tribal feuds, abusers of human dignity and blood, became the most disciplined nation under the guidance of Islam and its Prophet. Islam opened before them vistas of spiritual heights and human dignity by declaring righteousness as the sole criterion of merit and honor. Islam shaped their social, cultural, moral and commercial life with basic laws and principles which are in conformity with human nature and hence applicable in all times as human nature does not change.

It is so unfortunate that the Christian West instead of sincerely trying to understand the phenomenal success of Islam during its earlier time, considered it as a rival religion. During the centuries of the Crusades this trend gained much force and impetus and huge amount of literature was produced to tarnish the image of Islam. But Islam has begun to unfold its genuineness to the modern scholars whose bold and objective observations on Islam belie all the charges leveled against it by the so-called unbiased orientalists.

Here we furnish some observations on Islam by great and acknowledged non-Muslim scholars of modern time. Truth needs no advocates to plead on its behalf, but the prolonged malicious propaganda against Islam has created great confusion even in the minds of free and objective thinkers.

We hope that the following observations would contribute to initiating an objective evaluation of Islam.

It (Islam) replaced monkishness [characteristic of monks or monasticism, self-denial, ascetic] by manliness. It gives hope to the slave, brotherhood to mankind, and recognition of the fundamental facts of human nature. (Canon Taylor, Paper read before the Church Congress at Walverhamton, Oct. 7, 1887, Quoted by Arnond in The Preaching of Islam, pp. 71-72.)

Sense of justice is one of the most wonderful ideals of Islam, because as I read in the Qur'an I find those dynamic principles of life, not mystic but practical ethics for the daily conduct of life suited to the whole world. (Sarojini Naidu, Lectures on "The Ideals of Islam" see Speeches and Writings of Sarojini Naidu, Madras, 1918, p. 167.)

History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated. (De Lacy O'Leary, Islam at the Crossroads, London, 1923, p.8.)

But Islam has a still further service to render to the cause of humanity. It stands after all nearer to the real East than Europe does, and it possesses a magnificent tradition of inter-racial understanding and cooperation. No other society has such a record of success in uniting in an equality of status, of opportunity, and of endeavors so many and so various races of mankind...Islam has still the power to reconcile apparently irreconcilable elements of race and tradition. If ever the opposition of the great societies of East and West is to be replaced by cooperation, the mediation of Islam is an indispensable condition. In its hands lies very largely the solution of the problem with which Europe is faced in its relation with East. If they unite, the hope of a peaceful issue is immeasurably enhanced. But if Europe, by rejecting the cooperation of Islam, throws it into the arms of its rivals, the issue can only be disastrous for both. (H.A.R. Gibb, Whither Islam, London, 1932, p. 379.)

I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. it is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him -the wonderful man and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Savior of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today. (G.B. Shaw, The Genuine Islam, Vol. 1, No. 81936.)

The extinction of race consciousness as between Muslims is one of the outstanding achievements of Islam and in the contemporary world there is, as it happens, a crying need for the propagation of this Islamic virtue. (A.J. Toynbee, Civilization on Trial, New York, 1948, p. 205.)

The rise of Islam is perhaps the most amazing event in human history. Springing from a land and a people like previously negligible, Islam spread within a century over half the earth, shattering great empires, overthrowing long established religions, remolding the souls of races, and building up a whole new world -world of Islam.

The closer we examine this development the more extraordinary does it appear. The other great religions won their way slowly, by painful struggle and finally triumphed with the aid of powerful monarchs converted to the new faith. Christianity had its Constantine, Buddhism its Asoka, and Zoroastrianism its Cyrus, each lending to his chosen cult the mighty force of secular authority, Not so Islam. Arising in a desert land sparsely inhabited by a nomad race previously undistinguished in human annals. Islam sallied forth on its great adventure with the slenderest human backing and against the heaviest material odds. Yet Islam triumphed with seemingly miraculous ease, and a couple of generations saw the Fiery Crescent borne victorious from the Pyrenees to the Himalayas and from the desert of Central Asia to the deserts of Central Africa. (A.M.L. Stoddard, quoted in Islam - The Religion of All Prophets, Begum Bawani Waqf, Karachi, Pakistan, p. 56.)

Islam is a religion that is essentially rationalistic in the widest sense of this term considered etymologically and historically. The definition of rationalism as a system that bases religious belief on principles furnished by the reason applies to it exactly...It cannot be denied that many doctrines and systems of theology and also many superstitions, from the worship of saints to the use of rosaries and amulets, have become grafted on the main trunk of Muslim creed. But in spite of the rich development, in every sense of the term, of the teachings of the prophet, the Quran has invariably kept its place as the fundamental starting point, and the dogma of unity of God has always been proclaimed therein with a grandeur, a majesty, an invariable purity and with a note of sure conviction, which it is hard to find surpassed outside the pale of Islam. This fidelity to the fundamental dogma of the religion, the elemental simplicity of the formula in which it is enunciated, the proof that it gains from the fervid conviction of the missionaries who propagate it, are so many causes to explain the success of Mohammedan missionary efforts. A creed so precise, so stripped of all theological complexities and consequently so accessible to the ordinary understanding might be expected to possess and does indeed posses a marvelous power of winning its way into the consciences of men. (Edward Montet, "La Propaganda Chretienne it Adversaries Musulmans", Paris, 1890, quoted by T.W. Arnold in The Preaching of Islam, London, 1913, pp. 413-414.)

I am not a Muslim in the usual sense, though I hope I am a "Muslim" as "one surrendered to God", but I believe that embedded in the Quran and other expressions of the Islamic vision are vast stores of divine truth from which I and other occidentals have still much to learn, and 'Islam is certainly a strong contender for the supplying of the basic framework of the one religion of the future.' (W. Montgomery Watt, Islam and Christianity Today, London, 1983, p.IX.)

Isn't it something that the sheer simplicity of God's Plan is so baffling to us that we sometimes refuse to even think that it could be true. We do have free will and I have said yes to God. With all this head knowledge that we have acquired over the years has man basically changed very much? Now we worship ourselves, our brains and all the things that we make. God does not look at your religious affiliation or lack thereof He is a searcher of hearts and minds. He is not an egomaniac but Pure Love and His Plan is for all of His children. Also God is not a man or a woman but God Incarnate was a man and He asked permission from a Lady to become a man, God does not violate our free will. Truth is truth whether people believe it or not and just because the simple truth of the bible has been so twisted by people throughout the ages doesn't make it any less true. God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable. All of humanity will be in the Kingdom of God, like it says heaven and earth will pass away. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum

Rob,

The reason the muslim rulers loved dhimmitude was jizya, the minorites did all the hard work and the muslims enjoyed the fruits. The aim of dhimmitude was to pressurize the dhimmi to eventually convert to islam, but the irony was when more dhimmis started converting some muslim empires started to ban conversions to islam because of the loss of jizya.

HL - Uri Avnery is one only point of view and he comes from a particular part of the Israeli political spectrum.. He is not necessarily wrong, but he is not a historian. I think you would have to read or talk to an assortmant of historians to be able to begin to draw an accurate pictures of how different Muslim societies treated their non-Muslim inhabitants. And it seems too facile to say that everything was just fine, and there was no discrimination or intimidation. YOu need to include the works of other authors in order to be sure that you have a well-rounded picture.
Muslims were conquerors, colonialists and imperialists. Why should one assume that they treated their subjects so well?

HL,
We do know about the Islamic concept of dhimmitude and we don't like it one little bit. Sure the Muslims allowed Christians and Jews to exist instead of wiping them out - but only as second-class citizens not much better than slaves.

Sure some enlightened Caliphs had Jewish ministers but the general conditions under which the People of the Book had to endure were deplorable.

Would you like to live under those sorts of conditions? I suspect not. But you're perfectly happy to see others suffer under such gross discrimination.

You say the Quran prohibits persecution of the People of the Book. That is just not true.

Sarwar 9:29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

If this is not persecution, then what is?

As a Jewish atheist living in Israel with no hidden agenda, Uri Avnery gives us an objective view about how the Christians and the Jews have been treated by the Muslims.

{Jesus said: "You will recognize them by their fruits." The treatment of other religions by Islam must be judged by a simple test: How did the Muslim rulers behave for more than a thousand years, when they had the power to "spread the faith by the sword"?

Well, they just did not.

For many centuries, the Muslims ruled Greece. Did the Greeks become Muslims? Did anyone even try to Islamize them? On the contrary, Christian Greeks held the highest positions in the Ottoman administration. The Bulgarians, Serbs, Romanians, Hungarians and other European nations lived at one time or another under Ottoman rule and clung to their Christian faith.

Nobody compelled them to become Muslims and all of them remained devoutly Christian. [ Also, Spain was under Muslim rule for close to eight hundred years; nobody compelled them to become Muslims and all of them remained devoutly Christians as well.]

In 1099, the Crusaders conquered Jerusalem and massacred its Muslim and Jewish inhabitants indiscriminately, in the name of the gentle Jesus. At that time, 400 years into the occupation of Palestine by the Muslims, Christians were still the majority in the country. Throughout this long period, no effort was made to impose Islam on them. Only after the expulsion of the Crusaders from the country, did the majority of the inhabitants start to adopt the Arabic language and the Muslim faith - and they were the forefathers of most of today's Palestinians.

THERE IS no evidence whatsoever of any attempt to impose Islam on the Jews. As is well known, under Muslim rule the Jews of Spain enjoyed a bloom the like of which the Jews did not enjoy anywhere else until almost our time. Poets like Yehuda Halevy wrote in Arabic, as did the great Maimonides. In Muslim Spain, Jews were ministers, poets, scientists. In Muslim Toledo, Christian, Jewish and Muslim scholars worked together and translated the ancient Greek philosophical and scientific texts. That was, indeed, the Golden Age. How would this have been possible, had the Prophet decreed the "spreading of the faith by the sword"?

What happened afterwards is even more telling. When the Catholics re-conquered Spain from the Muslims, they instituted a reign of religious terror. The Jews and the Muslims were presented with a cruel choice: to become Christians, to be massacred or to leave. And where did the hundreds of thousand of Jews, who refused to abandon their faith, escape? Almost all of them were received with open arms in the Muslim countries. The Sephardi ("Spanish") Jews settled all over the Muslim world, from Morocco in the west to Iraq in the east, from Bulgaria (then part of the Ottoman Empire) in the north to Sudan in the south. Nowhere were they persecuted. They knew nothing like the tortures of the Inquisition, the flames of the auto-da-fe, the pogroms, the terrible mass-expulsions that took place in almost all Christian countries, up to the Holocaust.

WHY? Because Islam expressly prohibited any persecution of the "peoples of the book". In Islamic society, a special place was reserved for Jews and Christians. They did not enjoy completely equal rights, but almost. They had to pay a special poll-tax, but were exempted from military service - a trade-off that was quite welcome to many Jews. It has been said that Muslim rulers frowned upon any attempt to convert Jews to Islam even by gentle persuasion - because it entailed the loss of taxes.

Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for fifty generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times "by the sword" to get them to abandon their faith.

THE STORY about "spreading the faith by the sword" is an evil legend, one of the myths that grew up in Europe during the great wars against the Muslims - the reconquista of Spain by the Christians, the Crusades and the repulsion of the Turks, who almost conquered Vienna. I suspect that the German Pope, too, honestly believes in these fables. That means that the leader of the Catholic world, who is a Christian theologian in his own right, did not make the effort to study the history of other religions.

There is no escape from viewing them against the background of the new Crusade of Bush and his evangelist supporters, with his slogans of "Islamofascism" and the "Global War on Terrorism" - when "terrorism" has become a synonym for Muslims. For Bush's handlers, this is a cynical attempt to justify the domination of the world's oil resources. Not for the first time in history, a religious robe is spread to cover the nakedness of economic interests; not for the first time, a robbers' expedition becomes a Crusade.}

Try negotiating with the Mufti just before he sentences you to die for apostasy. See him laugh.

pointing out that one religion may be man made is not bashing. quoting what a religion says is not bashing. quoting and reciting what a religion has done in conformity with its written doctrine is not bashing.
telling people that a group is not a religion but a terrorist organization whith a 1400 years history of murdering anyone not their religion is factual and is not bashing.

Ms. Taylor,

Enjoyed your article. Its nice to read a article that is not filled with hateful words for one religion or another.

In my opinion that is where the religion haters just don't get it. Its not the religion, its the people who make a religion. The same with atheists. I have friends who are sane and rational atheists and who love to debate God and religion. Then there are a few I know who are fanatical atheists. The ones who run around mocking, ridiculing, and even suggesting violence against religious people, and religion. They are just as bad, if not worse than the fanatical christians, and or Radical Islamists.

It all goes back to us as individuals. Kinda like if you take 10 people and have them all watch a violent movie. Then one whacko goes out and kills another person, then blames the movie. The other nine people go about their lives. Its called individual responsibility. Or a book, or a video game, or a political party, etc...

Serenity now...serenity now!

How does a discussion on "Is religion man-made" turn into religion bashing? Deb Chatterjee, Frank Collins et al need to take a deep breath and hit the backspace/delete button more often. I am not trying to fight for any religion in particular, so nothing personal. But if I don't always agree for "an eye for an eye". Yes, it is the right AND responsibility for each and every one to stand up and fight for your rights. But exterminating or even talking about it is plain evil. By talking about it, you are not leaving much to say about you, how are you different from any propoent of violence? You have become what you condemn. And that is where you do not want to go.
BTW, Frank Collins, my last post to you ("Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends") was a quote from Lord of the Rings...said by Galdalf (my username and my favorite LOTR character). I guess no one really caught on to it...oh well!

Civilization in conflict with another civiliation.

Long list of other civilization attrocities.

Long list of quotes from other civilization.

Lack of sacred site will finish off other civilization.

Use genocide weapon on them.

End of problem.

Such an easy problem to figure out...

Frank, I gave you to the Lady. I see she didn't want you. Can't blame her. Praise the Lady that you do not have your finger on the button. Kill a million to save a billion? You are one evil sphincter.

Beating up Frank Collins, Concerned Christian Now Liberated (CCNL) or Ross is not going to change the fact that Islam is an evil dogma. This is despite the misleading and tendentious slant that Pamela Taylor puts in her piece, viz., religion is negotiable by each and every individual. This is compulsive lying. Islam, as an organized religion, is absolutely non-negotiable. Pamela must read the Quran thoroughly before making such west-appealing assertions.

TO FRANK COLLINS:
Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends.

Frank,

Bombing Mecca would put you in the same category as Mo, confronting an evil idealogy with violence is not the right way. We do need to defend ourselves against these jihadists with war if required but our main aim must be to expose this cult for what it is. Muslims are no different from the rest of us, it is the systematic brainwashing since childhood has blurred their vision of humanity.

Frank Collins:

Your fanatical posts are an affront to any rational person. Your hatred is enough to make me physically ill.

Here is an article about Tariq Ramadan, who is mentioned in Pam's article. This article is in today's New Republic and is by Paul Berman:

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=
20070604&s=berman060407

Saying that controlling religion like Islam, Mormonism or Christianity " is created anew by each individual as s/he navigates her or his own faith course.' is a contradicton. Although I think this is true in the heart of the individual, it can not be true as part of the controlling religious community. These religions offer little individual flexibility. The hallmark of those committed to their belief in the infallability of their religion is, "I've made up my mind. Don't confuse me with facts or present anything contrary to what I have been taught." A good example of this is the stickers the Catholic Church give its members in Mexico to put on their front doors. Roughly translated from Spanish, it says, "This house is Catholic. We don't accept propaganda from Protestants or from any other sect." As evil fears the light, controlling religions are afraid and insecure that even one member of their flock might have an individual thought contray to to their controlling dogma.

Frank, I cry because of your pride.

Some months ago, a contributor noted the following about the koran:

"After reading the koran for the first time, I had this bizarre vision....

I saw Muhammed sitting in a room, whispering these words to another man, "I need a drink of water". Then THAT man whispered words to the next person...and so on and so on....out the door, down the street, up the hill.....
the person sitting on top of the hill was scribbling furiously. He jumps up and yells:

"ALLAH NEEDS TO DRINK THE OCEAN FOR US TO SURVIVE!"

Many contemporary Islamics continue the tradition of making significant stupid conclusions about this illiterate, hallucinating Arab to the detriment of world peace.

Unfortunately these many contemporary Islamics live in countries that do not have freedom of religion, press and speech and therefore will never have the opportunity of real freedom. Such a shame!!! and so very, very dangerous.

Jeeze, Frank. You mean to burn up hundreds of thousands of people? And you think that will destroy the religion of hundreds of millions? Get a grip, buddy. Before the Mohammedans bowed toward Mecca, they bowed toward Jerusalem. If they changed it once, they can change it again.

I think I was right before. You are concrete bound. You can see a city, but you can't imagine the minds of millions. People cope with the loss of things. They always have. They always will.

Despite Pamela Anderson's feel-good and hyped altruisms, I would believe that a serious clash between Islam and West is inevitable. To win, the West has to develop smart techniques for annihilating the radical Muslims. However, theer are some like the ones in Fort Dix (NJ), who are homegrown fanatics. To diminish the threat from within, USA must implement laws to impose a moratorium on Muslims coming to USA from abroad with legal visa.

I grant you it's possible to say one thing and do another, but freedom of conscious means Freedom. Of Conscious. Free to decide according to your best beliefs. Whether they mean it or not is another question. If they don't mean it, it doesn't matter how they say it. They still won't mean it.

Frank. My man. A little concrete bound, aren't we? "Freedom of conscious" does say that. It's a little abstract, I know, but work at it. You'll get it.

Friend,

This current Harvard University Press book may be of interest:

The Dalai Lama at MIT
Edited by Anne Harrington
Edited by Arthur Zajonc
Their meeting captured headlines; the waiting list for tickets was nearly 2000 names long. If you were unable to attend, this book will take you there. Including both the papers given at the conference, and the animated discussion and debate that followed, The Dalai Lama at MIT reveals scientists and monks reaching across a cultural divide, to share insights, studies, and enduring questions.

Is there any substance to monks' claims that meditation can provide astonishing memories for words and images? Is there any neuroscientific evidence that meditation will help you pay attention, think better, control and even eliminate negative emotions? Are Buddhists right to make compassion a fundamental human emotion, and Western scientists wrong to have neglected it?

The Dalai Lama at MIT shows scientists finding startling support for some Buddhist claims, Buddhists eager to participate in neuroscientific experiments, as well as misunderstandings and laughter. Those in white coats and those in orange robes agree that joining forces could bring new light to the study of human minds.

Jihadist, What about this in your adopted country?:

Malaysian Christian Tests Islamic Law
High Court to Decide Convert's Case

Monday, May 28, 2007; Page A12 Washington Post

KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia, May 27 -- Lina Joy has been disowned by her family, shunned by friends and forced into hiding because she renounced Islam and embraced Christianity in Muslim-majority Malaysia.

Now, after a seven-year legal struggle, Malaysia's highest court will decide on Wednesday whether her constitutional right to choose her religion overrides an Islamic law that prohibits Malay Muslims from leaving Islam.

Either way, the verdict will have profound implications in a country where Islam is increasingly conflicting with minority religions, challenging Malaysia's reputation as a moderate Muslim and multicultural nation that guarantees freedom of worship.

Joy's case began in 1998 when, after converting, she applied for a name change on her government identity card. The National Registration Department obliged but refused to drop Muslim from the religion category.

Joy, who was born Azlina Jailani, appealed the decision to a civil court but was told she must take it to sharia courts, which handle Islamic issues. But Joy, 42, has argued that she should not be bound by Islamic law because she is a Christian.

Subsequent appeals ruled that the sharia court should decide the case. The highest court, the Federal Court, will make the final decision on whether Muslims who renounce their faith must still answer to Islamic courts.

About 60 percent of Malaysia's 25 million citizens are Muslim, and their civil, family, marriage and personal rights are decided by sharia courts. The minorities -- the ethnic Chinese, Indians and other smaller communities -- are governed by civil courts.

But the constitution does not say who has the final word in cases such as Joy's, when Islam confronts Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism or other religions.

If Joy loses her appeal and continues to insist she is a Christian, it could lead to charges of apostasy and a possible jail sentence.

"Our country is at a crossroad," said Benjamin Dawson, Joy's attorney. "Are we evolving into an Islamic state or are we going to maintain the secular character of the constitution?"

The founding fathers of Malaysia deliberately left the constitution vague, unwilling to upset any of the three ethnic groups dominant at the time of independence from Britain 50 years ago, when the goal was to build a peaceful, multiracial country.

Joy began going to church in 1990 and was baptized eight years later. Joy and her ethnic Indian Catholic boyfriend, known only as Johnson, went into hiding in early 2006 amid fears they could be targeted by Muslim zealots, Dawson said.

Joy's decision to convert has sparked angry street protests and led to e-mail death threats against a Muslim lawyer supporting her.

Some Muslim groups say Joy is questioning the position of Islam by taking the case to civil courts.

"It is not about one person, it is about challenging the Islamic system in Malaysia," said Muslim Youth Movement President Yusri Mohammad, who set up a coalition of 80 Islamic groups to oppose Joy's case. "By doing this openly, she is encouraging others to do the same. It may open the floodgates to other Muslims, because once it is a precedent, it becomes an option."

Pam,

When are you going to address the cleansing of your Book of Death aka the Koran?

Again, here are your starting materials:

Part 1 of the "cleansing".

"The 77 Branches of Faith is a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true faith (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs."

"30 qualities are connected to the heart"
(five at a time)

"1. Belief in Allah"

No problem but "aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

No problem but evolution and the Big Bang cannot be ignored and the "akas" for Allah should be included.

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item to delete. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy talking thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in Heaven just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.

Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy talking thingy". Common sense demands a deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

And I just love being in a country where I can list these important items for world peace without the fear of Islamic death squads.

God Bless America on this Memorial Day honoring our military gals and guys and their global victory over the Nazis and Commies and the containment of fanatical Islamic "koranics".

Norrie: I haven't read about the Dalai Llama recruiting scientists...I'll read about it.

Dear Ms Taylor

With 1.5 billion Muslims worldwide, most of whom live in peace and harmony with people of other faiths (138 million in India alone), the work you do, to reign in the negative side of the practice of Islam, is much appreciated by this non-Muslim who respects all human beings and the right of each one to find their way to God in any way they choose as long as nobody else - not even a Muslim or an ex-Muslim - is hurt in the process.

Keep up your work with confidence and patience, the world sorely needs it!

GANDHI ON RELIGION

Thus if I could not accept Christianity either as a perfect, or the greatest religion, neither was I then convinced of Hinduism being such. Hindu defects were pressingly visible to me. If untouchability could be a part of Hinduism, it could but be a rotten part or an excrescence. I could not understand the raison d'etre of a multitude of sects and castes. What was the meaning of saying that the Vedas were the inspired Word of God? If they were inspired, why not also the Bible and the Koran? As Christian friends were endeavouring to convert me, so were Muslim friends. Abdullah Sheth had kept on inducing me to study Islam, and of course he had always something to say regarding its beauty." (source: his autobiography)
"As soon as we lose the moral basis, we cease to be religious. There is no such thing as religion over-riding morality. Man, for instance, cannot be untruthful, cruel or incontinent and claim to have God on his side."
"The sayings of Muhammad are a treasure of wisdom, not only for Muslims but for all of mankind."
Later in his life when he was asked whether he was a Hindu, he replied:

"Yes I am. I am also a Christian, a Muslim, a Buddhist and a Jew.

We do stand for freedom of religion, although the exact terminology we used is freedom of conscience as that includes freedom from religion as well.

3) Separation of Church and State: We believe that freedom of conscience is not only essential to all human societies but integral to the Qur’anic view of humanity. As such, we resist the legislation of morality and endorse the separation of religion and state in all matters of public policy. We believe that secular government is the only way to achieve the Islamic ideal of freedom from compulsion in matters of faith.

Frank,

You forget one more:

Behead the jew AND marry his young wife !

Once her husband is beheaded this female "Ape" according to Allah suddenly becomes a beautiful maiden fit for marriage and the Ape's house and wealth becomes his !

Pamela wrote:
So too, the shari'ah, which is often called Divine Law, is in reality the product of very human attempts to understand what God might want us to do. Often that process was terribly flawed, resulting in horrible abuses of human rights as we see in modern Saudi Arabia and Iran.

What makes you so sure the process was flawed sometimes ? Mo carried out the same punishments and if he was right in carrying out punishments like stoning or beheading etc what makes the Saudi or Iranian authorities wrong ???

Why can't you comprehend the possibility that Allah did demand these cruel punishments ?

Pamela wrote:
Modern scholar Tariq Ramadan has suggested that all the punishments in the Qur'an cannot be applied in today's world because the society which the Qur'an envisons does not exist anywhere in the world, and that society is a prerequisite for those punishments. Others have said they might be applicable in the 7th century, but they are no longer appropriate, as our moral understanding has changed. Many have suggested that these verses need not be taken literally, but rather can be understood as a metaphor for preventing a thief from committing the crime -- via alleviatio of deprivation, law enforcement, or if necessary encareration.

How about you stop submitting to this Allah ? if his punishments can be ignored since your moral understanding has changed then perhaps you can stop worshipping this cruel deity. I mean morally you have surpassed Allah !!!

"craig thomas:

Let's call all religions by their proper name: Superstition. Let's describe faith properly: The baseless, illogical, unfounded, unverified belief in something simply because you conjured it up.

And would the Post please drop this ridiculous "On Faith" section? None of the people profiled know anything. They're just guessing. They're not dealing in facts"

OK, fact is... Or rather, the question...

Are we cluttering up the blank page you'd otherwise be looking at? :)

The "Describe Mohammed" Poll is complete. And the top choice is:

1. Mohammed the Great Hallucinator Of Mythical Wingie Thingies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In second place was:

2. Mohammed the Great Profiteer.

Friend,

You wrote:

"I meant a Unified Nuerophychologic algorithm of this experience in mathematical and scientific language, to futher our objectification of the universe."

You've probably read that the Dalai Llama has been recruiting scientists to work on this. And he has said that if current scientific truth and the teachings of the Buddha are in conflict, the teachings must give way to the science.

''Modern scholar Tarıq Ramadan has suggested that all the punishments in the Quran can not be applied in today's world''
Yes,you are right.
In addition to,in other words,Desert Rules are not compatible with the contemporary values.

I love storm.
I exult in the whipping wind.
The gasp of lightning.
The triumph of thunder.
from Storm Brewing

When you walk through a storm
Hold your head up high
and dont be afraid of the dark

Good point, Norrie.

I meant a Unified Nuerophychologic algorithm of this experience in mathematical and scientific language, to futher our objectification of the universe.

Pamela - this is one of your better columns, I only take issue with about 50% of it, instead of 100%.

I noticed that you talked about a "revealed" text. There are many people who would disagree that there is even such a thing as a "revealed" text, when "revealed" has the meaning of disclosure of information to man by a divine or supernatural agency. Many people would disagree that the Quran or any of the other religious texts can in any way be attributed to divine agency, unless, of course, you count humans as themselves divine. But in terms of something "out there", "higher", "better" or "more true", than what humans can come up with, then no, there is no such thing as a "revealed" text. And then later you say:
"I believe that it is very important that the human element in religion be acknowleged. There is potential for great abuse when a law is perceived as Divine, even worse when it is perceived as both Divine and absolute.". But if you are talking about a "revealed" text, then you are NOT acknowledging that there is a human element involved.
I have heard you and others defend barbaric practices such as the cutting off of hands as appropriate for 7th century Arabia. I want to remind you that Buddha lived approximately 1200 years before Muhammmed, and Jesus lived about 600 years before Muhammed, and both Buddha and Jesus lived in tough parts of the world. But neither Jesus or Buddha found it necessary to cut off peoples' heads, hands or feet, or rape vast numbers of women, or loot, or marry multiple wives including a 9 year old girl. You make excuses for Muhammed, as if somehow those actions were necessary or appropriate for that time and place. The whole point of a religious leader is not to follow the norm of the times, but to inspire their followers to be kinder and more humane. On that count, Muhammed does not qualify, and that is why so many commenters on these threads refer to him as a cult, not a religious, leader.

I am glad to see that you agree that there might be things in the Quran that might need to be changed or brought up to date.

My unofficial poll about the proper description of Mohammed continues. With over 80% of the votes counted poll completed, "Mohammed the Great Hallucinator of Pretty Wingie Talking Thingies", continues to be the choice description of Islam's founder.

Other descriptions are welcomed from On Faith contributors.

Recommended descriptions are:
1. Mohammed the Great Hallucinator Of Mythical Wingie Thingies?
2. Mohammed the Great Prophet?
3. Mohammed the Great Profiteer?
4. Mohammed the Lover of Many Women Young and Not So Young?
5. Mohammed the Man of Many Myths?
6. Too Much Time in the Sun, Mohammed?
7. Mohammed, Man Made by Many Militant Scribes?

Unfortunately, time has expired for getting a chance to join Pamela at her Islamic Fairy Land.

My unofficial poll about the proper description of Mohammed continues. With over 80% of the votes counted poll completed, "Mohammed the Great Hallucinator of Pretty Wingie Talking Thingies", continues to be the choice description of Islam's founder.

Other descriptions are welcomed from On Faith contributors.

Recommended descriptions are:
1. Mohammed the Great Hallucinator Of Mythical Wingie Thingies?
2. Mohammed the Great Prophet?
3. Mohammed the Great Profiteer?
4. Mohammed the Lover of Many Women Young and Not So Young?
5. Mohammed the Man of Many Myths?
6. Too Much Time in the Sun, Mohammed?
7. Mohammed, Man Made by Many Militant Scribes?

Unfortunately, time has expired for getting a chance to join Pamela at her Islamic Fairy Land.

First, how refreshing to actually have a conversation going on.

Second, I was raised as an atheist, and for a long time was quite a devout atheist. As an atheist I had intense experiences of connectedness to and oneness with the Universe, particularly in nature, and particularly when thinking about the atomic structure of the energy/matter matrix.

Those feelings were and are, in fact, exactly what I call today a connection to the Divine. I can now foster that sense of connectedness via nature, through thoughts about atomic structure, and also by reading certain passages in the Qur'an, or certain sections of the Prophet's life. And I now identify that something greater not just as the manifestation of the energy/matter matrix, but as something which animates it.

However I foster that sense of connectedness to this greater Other, that sense of something greater, and one's place within the greater whole, seems to me to be extremely vital because it gives balance and perspective in life. It helps pulls me above petty, materialistic, narcissistic, and tribalistic desires, towards an inclusive and comprehensive understanding of the world, of humanity, and the kind of role I want to play in creating the future.

Obviously, many people do not relate to religion that way at all, using more like a rule book, a way to abdicate responsibility for thinking for themselves. Many use it as a bludgeon against their fellow men. I don't feel it is my position to tell them how they have to live their lives, or the way in which they should make their moral choices, so long as those moral choices do not harm others.

I can empathize strongly with the atheists who despair about the incredible damage religious bigotry and intolerance has done to this world. I despair over it myself, as I relate to religion very differently than those who have wreaked such havoc on the world in the name of their God.

But that doesn't mean that there can be no positive aspects to religion. It simply means that we have to advocate for more comprehensive, more rationalist, and more tolerant approaches to religion.

Friend & Gaby,

I don't know that the Buddha ever spoke specifically about a sunset, but he spoke of many things in the world.

So, Friend, let me rewrite your sentence: "Tell me about how you feel watching [anything]. Could you really only use facts?

Yes, the Buddha, and later, anyone could do this.

Meditate, or otherwise get yourself in a quiet, meditative state. Slow time down in your mind. Then you can easily perceive what's happening.

Start with the objective stimulus of the sunset [or any thing else]. Today we'd say perceive the light rays, but that's an unneeded, distracting, thinking, step which is counterproductive. Just objectively perceive the stimulus as it first encounters your mind.

Then quietly observe the operation of your mind. If emotions arise because of the stimulus of the sunset, observe their arising and passing away. Do not become attached to them. Notice everything going on in your mind.

As you become a Buddhist adept, you will see that the sunset and your feelings are "empty." That is, they have no real, inherent identity, and are as insubstantial as an image on a TV screen. If you actually perceive the stimulus and response as "real", it is because your mindstream has obscurations and other impediments to true perceptions.

A modern biologist would have biochemical explanations of how your feelings manifest in your consciouness. A psychoanalyst would have an explanation of why certain particular feelings arise. The Buddha was only concerned with the nature of mind and how its processes work in general, not with what particular processes gave rise to the exact nature of the feelings in response to the sunset.

The Buddha used his mind objectively to study what happened within his mind and to discern the nature of the images and feelings that arose (i.e., they are "empty.")

"Tell me about how you feel watching a sunset. Could you really only use facts?"

Yes, only facts, no theories, or paranormal or religious stuff required.
required.

Regards.

Fallucination:

"Gaby,

He used lard, since beef tallow was hard to come by in ancient India."

Hahahahhah!!! You got me there, I guess spellcheck isn't all what its cracked up to be.

I hope Norrie won't give me the same answer you did!

Enjoy your weekend!

Friend: Religion is sufficient for community, not necessary.

As for your metaphorical comment, I agree 100%; the Bible, Koran, Baghavad Gita and other religious texts aren't very good textbooks, but wonderful works of art.

Fallucination: It's also about community and if you don't have a need for that, I guess I agree with you.

We can get the inspiration from the poetry of the texts and leave it at that. That is what I mean by my comment above:

The metaphorical language of religion helps us relate to the Universe, society, and our lives.

Friend: Many of the big religious texts are, at least in part, superior works of art. Heck, the Song of Solomon and the Lotus Sutra are two of the most beautiful and thought-provoking poems I have ever read. I'm just sayin' a life based on poetry shouldn't be concerned only with poetic texts because folks (including the poet) insist such texts are divinely inspired.

As far as my basic civility comment goes, I'm not saying that's what all religion is, just that if every part of is under negotiation and not eternally true, the core which remains consists largely of civility lessons and narrative. If the civility aspects between religions are close and only the narratives differ, why should I choose to be Buddhist over Christian over Muslim? If it's reduced to which set of narratives and rituals are more appealing to me, what's all the fuss about?

Norrie, enlighten me because I have not run across that literature in Bhuddism.

I've been reading neuro-psychology recently and that is actually where I get the reference about Einstien. I read Roger Penrose's "The Emporer's New Mind" also and he also gave me the impression that the laws that govern the mind will be more complex than quantum mechanics. Hence, our inability to make a computer than can pass Turings Test.

Fallucination: I don't think a pure literal interpretation is possible, most of it's poetry.

Religion is more than "basic civility" but does include psychology, philosophy, and uses poetry.

Gaby,

He used lard, since beef tallow was hard to come by in ancient India.

*duh dun CHING*

I'll be here all weekend, folks!

Norrie,

Buddha explained the sunset-watching feeling using only fats? How'd he do that?

Friend,

"Tell me about how you feel watching a sunset. Could you really only use facts? There is not yet an Einstein to explain the human consciousness..and even his theories are not complete."

The Buddha was that Einstein. And in explaining the sunset-watching feeling, he used only facts (and that was 600 years B.C.E.).

And, of course, today's psychobiologists can give a much fuller explanation, using only facts.

Regards.

The problem with a po-mo or realtive view of religion is that the original, messed-up "revealed" text will not cease to be and will continue to inspire literal interpretations since, hey, the text hasn't changed! Those who make "literal" interpretations can always claim that their deity's pronouncements, laws, etc. are for all time and it is the "modern world" (as Ms. Taylor puts it) which is out of sync.
Literal interpretations of any religious text will always be popular due to the simplicity of uncritically accepting a given text; it's hard to argue against folks whose position is essentially "It's true 'cause it says so!"

In a way, I agree with Ms. Taylor: shari'ah and *any* system of religious understanding is a human undertaking. I, however, take that as essentially breaking religion's hold on truth, both objective and spiritual.

I reject the strong tea of fundamentalists' insistence that literal interpretation, as many view it, is even possible. I also reject the weak tea of progressive, relative religion: if religion only offers a relative system of values, the meaning of religion is only the adherence to, or even mere acceptance of, a particular set of narratives, ostensibly revealed or inspired by a deity. If the meaning of these narratives is always in negotiation vis a vis "modern society", then what eternal lessons does religion teach except basic civility (as those lessons would be the lowest common denominator of any religious system): don't kill, steal from, rape or hurt each other.

I mean, relative religion seems to reduce those grand spiritual truths so many religiously-inclined folks speak to so much fetishization.

I would say that religion is not man-made, but pre-dates our species.

I am piece of the universe that has gained consciousness, and I do care about "that stuff".

I know almost exactly what you mean when you say, "feel all gooey inside". Although, that's a metaphor.

Sometimes religion makes me feel ewy gooey inside, if you know what I mean.

"Religion (or lack thereof) is created anew by each individual as s/he navigates her or his own faith course."

Ah yes, postmodern relativism. We each have a "faith course" that is unique and personal. Isn't that wonderful? Doesn't that just make you feel all gooey inside? Doesn't that also imply that religion is man-made?

As if Muslim women have a "faith course" of their own. As if kids in madrassas and Catholic schools and growing up in Israeli West Bank settlements have "faith courses" of their own. Indoctrination and fear have as much to do with "faith courses" as anything else, and they are imposed from without.

The "metaphorical language" of religion does not in the least help us to relate to anything, except maybe the other tribal members who share our particular orthodoxy. Least of all the Universe, which cares not a whit about any of that stuff.

Independent Thought:

And yet Pam's religion is.

Insults do not help us understand each other.

There are no videos of the friendship I have had with muslims or evangelical christians on cnn or fox. There are no videos of our children playing.

And you are wrong about Muslims not condemning not only the violence you speak of, but of other attrocious acts.

I think by your name that if you do not realize this, you eventually will.

And the poll votes continue to be counted. With over 70% of the poll completed, "Mohammed the Great Hallucinator of Pretty Wingie Thingies", continues to be the choice description of Islam's founder.

Other descriptions are welcomed from On Faith contributors.

Recommended descriptions are:
1. Mohammed the Great Hallucinator Of Mythical Wingie Thingies?
2. Mohammed the Great Prophet?
3. Mohammed the Great Profiteer?
4. Mohammed the Lover of Many Women Young and Not So Young?
5. Mohammed the Man of Many Myths?
6. Too much Time in the Sun, Mohammed?
7. Mohammed, Man Made by Many Militant Scribes?

The poll will remain open for another week. Enter today to win a chance for a free trip to Pamela's Islamic Fairy Land.

craig thomas:

If we only dealt in facts our ordinary converstions would be dull indeed.

At the very least let us talk in theories also.

Since Socrates, even before, humanity has been trying to discover a way to talk about what cannot be said about metaphysics and ethics, which transcend human language.

Tell me about how you feel watching a sunset. Could you really only use facts? There is not yet an Einstein to explain the human consciousness..and even his theories are not complete.

The metaphorical language of religion helps us relate to the Universe, society, and our lives.

I just watched a video last week of a 17 year old girl being stoned to death in front of a crowd of people for dating a boy from the wrong sect. It was all over CNN, Fox, etc. To this day I have heard/read of exactly ZERO Muslim leaders condemning those barbarians who participated in that crime.

It's 2007!

Lady, after careful consideration i believe your religion to be vile and worthless.

Jews and most Christians, don't smile, your history is pretty checkered too.

Signed,

Proud to be Independent Minded and Agnostic

What about truth? Does truth matter?

If I say the moon does not exist, does that mean it does not exist for me?

Let's call all religions by their proper name: Superstition. Let's describe faith properly: The baseless, illogical, unfounded, unverified belief in something simply because you conjured it up.

And would the Post please drop this ridiculous "On Faith" section? None of the people profiled know anything. They're just guessing. They're not dealing in facts.

Let's call all religions by their proper name: Superstition. Let's describe faith properly: The baseless, illogical, unfounded, unverified belief in something simply because you conjured it up.

And would the Post please drop this ridiculous "On Faith" section? None of the people profiled know anything. They're just guessing. They're not dealing in facts.