Words for the Week -- Jesus in the Qur'an

Megan,Megan,Megan..

You are lumped together with sociopaths because they are your coreligionists.

As a peace loving devout Muslim, the blood shed by your fellow followers of the Koran should weigh heavily on you, the knowledge should be hard for you to turn away from, it should keep you awake at night.

Best wishes.

Thank you Megan.

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Mr. Greg Colman,
I don't expect Christians to agree with Muslims about Jesus at all.

Qasim Omar's points about the Trinity are not all that interesting to me. For one, It is obvious what Allah asks Jesus what he said. On Judgment Day, Allah will ask each and every one of us, regardless of whether that person was a prophet or otherwise, about our deeds on in this life. This isn't because Allah is not omniscient, but rather because we must accept our actions as ours and hold ourselves responsible for them. All Muslims believe this. The idea is, if you would be ashamed to admit to God that you did it, then don't do it.

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With respect I’m sure others will find it interesting, especially those of the non-Muslim persuasion who are not beholden to find truth in the Quran and come to this discussion from a more objective perspective.

I think you have failed to understand the point being made and that is, why would Allah not only ask Jesus if he was omniscient, but why he asked THE WRONG QUESTION.

Why should Jesus be asked whether he taught something so blatantly untrue? Why was the concept of the Trinity so wrong? When did Jesus or any other Christian sect teach the Trinity was comprised of Jesus, Mary and God? Never.

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The second and third points are slightly more interesting than his first point, as they exemplify how religions continuously evolved. However, his points do not make the Qur'an less valid, as there is evidence that there were sects of Mary-worshiping Christians in Muhammad's time.

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Again, Jesus never taught the worship of Mary as a GOD. It doesn’t matter if there are heretical sects worshipping Mary (for there are many heretical sects of all descriptions) three centuries after he died. This actually proves Allah’s fallibility because Muhammad mistook a heretical belief as the teaching of Jesus.

Collyridianism was a relatively late development and was a movement sometime between 350-450AD among women (the adherents were all women) – which makes it far too late to be confused for the teachings of Jesus.

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Finally, the point about the concept of the Trinity being developed in 325AD is moot, because as others on this forum have said, and as I mentioned earlier, the Prophets will testify on Judgment Day, and will reaffirm the message they sent to their people. Jesus is only reaffirming that he never taught the trinity-- that is is a human innovation.

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Again, it proves Allah to be a figment of Muhammad’s imagination because of the concept of the Trinity had nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus Christ but was invented centuries afterwards to explain the nature of God. It is true that the individual components of the Trinity are in the Bible, but not articulated as such by Jesus Christ.

So, not only did Muhammad get the concept of the Trinity wrong, but he did not know that Jesus never taught the worship of his mother as a God. He was also unaware of the dates of development of the Collyridianism heresy and the Council of Nicaea.

If a true god wanted to clarify Jesus’s teachings, perhaps he might as Jesus whether he taught the Trinity comprised Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God the Father instead of Jesus, Mary and Allah.

I would expect better of a true divinity to at least know the basics of Christian theology.

Mr. Greg Colman,
I don't expect Christians to agree with Muslims about Jesus at all.

Qasim Omar's points about the Trinity are not all that interesting to me. For one, It is obvious what Allah asks Jesus what he said. On Judgment Day, Allah will ask each and every one of us, regardless of whether that person was a prophet or otherwise, about our deeds on in this life. This isn't because Allah is not omniscient, but rather because we must accept our actions as ours and hold ourselves responsible for them. All Muslims believe this. The idea is, if you would be ashamed to admit to God that you did it, then don't do it.

The second and third points are slightly more interesting than his first point, as they exemplify how religions continuously evolved. However, his points do not make the Qur'an less valid, as there is evidence that there were sects of Mary-worshiping Christians in Muhammad's time.

Finally, the point about the concept of the Trinity being developed in 325AD is moot, because as others on this forum have said, and as I mentioned earlier, the Prophets will testify on Judgment Day, and will reaffirm the message they sent to their people. Jesus is only reaffirming that he never taught the trinity-- that is is a human innovation.

Sincerely,
Megan

Anonymous, you said: "Megan, We will get bored when people stop dying. Your religion should not give you a free pass to murder innocents."

I hate to disappoint you, but "people" will never stop dying, because death is a fact of life. The reason why we cannot have meaningful discussion is because people like you continuously accuse Islam of giving it's followers a free pass to murder innocents. You attack innocent, peace loving, God fearing people, and lump them together with groups of sociopaths that have nothing to do with us and expect us to want to discuss things with you. Your response to my comment is exactly what I was talking about when I said "diversionary tactic."

Sincerely,
Megan

There is only something to discuss if there is some 'disagreement'. If people wholeheartedly agree there is no discussion - merely acquiescence.

Now, if Muslims want Christians to agree with them that their version of Jesus Christ and the Trinity are correct, then they will be sorely disappointed.

It might be interesting to have a discussion on the points Qasim Omar brought up about the Trinity. That seems to me to be a worthy topic of discussion.

"I hope they eventually get bored of it so that we can have real discussions some day."

Megan, We will get bored when people stop dying. Your religion should not give you a free pass to murder innocents.

When that happens, Pam and you can stand under a rainbow holding hands and have the deep and meaningful discussions you so desire.

Pamela, I love your posts. This post about Jesus is brilliant, and like others have pointed out, it's always nice to be reminded of the similarities between the Islamic version of Jesus and the Christian version of Jesus.

The effort you take in posting every week is outstanding and may Allah bless you for it. I am always inspired by your words. Unfortunately, every week some people leave the some exact comments and ask the same questions over and over, no matter who responds to them. It is a tiresome and diversionary tactic. I hope they eventually get bored of it so that we can have real discussions some day.

Thanks for posting.
Barakallah.

Pamela:

I guess you won't respond to Quasim's excellent post. Too bad, but your silence speaks for you.

You label yourself PROGRESSIVE:

"Favoring or Advocating Progress, Change, Improvement, or Reform, as opposed to wishing to maintain things as they are"

From the positions you advocate in your posts and your less than subtle silence when you're challenged, you might consider changing your label from progressive to spineless.

First of all, Allah had to ask Jesus if he taught such and such. Why did he have to ask? Didn't he know?

Secondly, the word Trinity or "one of three" is in 5:73

al-Ma'idah 5:73
‏لقد كفر الذين قالوا ان الله ثالث ثلاثة ومامن اله الا اله واحد وان لم ينتهوا عما يقولون ليمسن الذين كفروا منهم عذاب اليم

Laqad kafara allatheena qaloo inna Allaha thalithu thalathatin wama min ilahin illa ilahun wahidun wa-in lam yantahoo AAamma yaqooloona layamassanna allatheena kafaroo minhum AAathabun aleemun

Those who said: "That God is third of three." had disbelieved, and no God except from one God, and if they do not stop from what they say, a painful torture will touch those who disbelieved from them.

Coming back to the verse in question:

al-Ma'idah 5:116
‏واذ قال الله ياعيسى ابن مريم ءانت قلت للناس اتخذوني وامي الهين من دون الله قال سبحانك مايكون لي ان اقول ماليس لي بحق ان كنت قلته فقد علمته تعلم مافي نفسي ولااعلم مافي نفسك انك انت علام الغيوب

Wa-ith qala Allahu ya AAeesa ibna maryama aanta qulta lilnnasi ittakhithoonee waommiya ilahayni min dooni Allahi qala subhanaka ma yakoonu lee an aqoola ma laysa lee bihaqqin in kuntu qultuhu faqad AAalimtahu taAAlamu ma fee nafsee wala aAAlamu ma fee nafsika innaka anta AAallamu alghuyoobi

And when God said: "You Jesus Mary's son, did you say to the people 'Take me and my mother as TWO GODS FROM OTHER THAN GOD?' He said: 'Your praise/glory, it is not to be for me that I say what is not for me with a truth, if I had said it, so You had known it, You know what is in my self, and I do not know what is in Your self, that You, You are all knower of the unseens.'"

من دون Min dooni means "other than" or "besides".

So what is Jesus and Mary as TWO GODS beside Allah?

2 + 1 = ???

You tell me.

One question was : “First of all, Allah did not know whether Jesus had taught that the Christian Trinity comprised of Jesus, Mary and Allah, so he had to ask Jesus. So much for his omniscience.”
The other question was: why didn't Allah know that Jesus never taught his followers to worship Mary as a God?

This is the kind of stupid comments that I just smile when I read them. If you know a bit of the Quran you wouldn’t ask such a question.
The verses referred to are:

5:116 And when God will say: O Jesus son of Mary! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides God he will say: Glory be to you, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, you would indeed have known it; you know what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in yours, For you know in full all that is hidden.

5:117 "Never said I to them aught except what you commanded me to say, to wit, 'worship God, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them; when you took me up you were the Watcher over them, and you are a witness to all things.

5:118 If you punish them, they are you servant: If you forgive them, you are the Exalted in power, the Wise."

5:119 God will say: "This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are gardens, with rivers flowing beneath,- their eternal Home: God well-pleased with them, and they with God: That is the great salvation, (the fulfillment of all desires).

5:120 To God belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, and it is He Who has power over all things.

The question being asked of Jesus is if he asked people to worship him and his mother; No more no less. There is no reference to the trinity whatsoever. That’s the power of suggestion in your mind. What you are trying to do is define the statement and require the person to argue his way out. In rhetoric language, it’s called straw man tactic. The question will be as of Jesus not because God does not know that Jesus never taught to take him and his mother as deity but to show that Jesus is innocent of the charge and to show those people who worship Jesus and or and Mary that they are in the wrong. When Jesus stands as a witness against those who hold to such a pagan doctrine they will have no evidence and no reason as to why they believed that Jesus is God and they will have to admit to their mistake.

At Judgment Day, everyone will be brought up to account for their deeds. And also the prophets and the messengers will be called as witnesses against their peoples and nations. The atmosphere will be like a courtroom where God is the judge and everyone will see their deeds and actions from the previous life.

The prophet Muhammad will be brought up as a witness, and so will be Moses, Jesus and all the other prophets of God.

How then if We brought from each people a witness, and We brought you as a witness against these people!
On that day those who reject Faith and disobey the messenger will wish that the earth Were made one with them: But never will they hide a single fact from God! 4:41-42

And the stupor of death will bring Truth (before his eyes): "This was the thing which you were trying to escape!"
And the Trumpet shall be blown: that will be the Day whereof Warning (had been given).
And there will come forth every soul: with each will be an (angel) to drive, and an (angel) to bear witness.
(It will be said:) "you were heedless of this; now have We removed your veil, and sharp is your sight this Day!"
And his Companion will say: "Here is (his Record) ready with me!"
(The sentence will be:) "Throw, throw into Hell every contumacious Rejecter (of God)!-
"Who set up another deity beside God: Throw him into a severe penalty."
His Companion will say: "Our Lord! I did not make him transgress, but he was (himself) far astray."
He will say: "Dispute not with each other in My Presence: I had already in advance sent you Warning.
"The Word changes not before Me, and I do not the least injustice to My Servants."
One Day We will ask Hell, "Art thou filled to the full?" It will say, "Are there any more (to come)?"
And the Garden will be brought nigh to the Righteous,- no more a thing distant.
(A voice will say:) "This is what was promised for you,- for every one who turned (to God) in sincere repentance, who kept (His Law),
Who feared (God) Most Gracious Unseen, and brought a heart turned in devotion (to Him):
Enter you therein in Peace and Security; this is a Day of Eternal Life!"
There will be for them therein all that they wish,- and more besides in Our Presence. 50:19-34

One Day We shall raise from all Peoples a Witness: then will no excuse be accepted from Unbelievers, nor will they receive any favors.
When the wrong-doers (actually) see the Penalty, then will it in no way be mitigated, nor will they then receive respite.
When those who gave partners to God will see their "partners", they will say: "Our Lord! these are our 'partners,' those whom we used to invoke besides you." But they will throw back their word at them (and say): "Indeed you are liars!"
That Day shall they (openly) show (their) submission to God; and all their inventions shall leave them in the lurch.
Those who reject God and hinder (men) from the Path of God - for them will We add Penalty to Penalty; for that they used to spread mischief.
One day We shall raise from all Peoples a witness against them, from amongst themselves: and We shall bring you as a witness against these (thy people): and We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things, a Guide, a Mercy, and Glad Tidings to those who submit their will to God. 16:84-89

And from each people shall We draw a witness, and We shall say: "Produce your Proof": then shall they know that the Truth is in God (alone), and the (lies) which they invented will leave them in lurch. 28:75

On the Day that the enemies of God will be gathered together to the Fire, they will be marched in ranks.
At length, when they reach the (Fire), their hearing, their sight, and their skins will bear witness against them, as to (all) their deeds. 41:19-20

They say: "(God) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
That they should invoke a son for (God) Most Gracious.
For it is not consonant with the majesty of (God) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.
Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to (God) Most Gracious as a servant.
He takes an account of them (all), and has numbered them (all) exactly.
And everyone of them will come to Him singly on the Day of Judgment.
On those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, will (God) Most Gracious bestow love. 19:88-96

Now, a comment about the trinity. Christians always start by saying if you Muslims just have an open mind, you will understand the trinity. But when you start asking specific questions and conclude that the whole concept is an insult to man’s common sense and how silly it is, then they would say, well, it’s a mystery and no one can understand it. It happens every time.

Dear Ms Taylor

Thank you for choosing Jesus from the Quran as your topic this week. It is wonderful to know that Muslims and Christians do have Jesus in common, even though the Muslim version of Jesus is somewhat different from the version of Jesus in Christianity. For greater understanding between Christians and Muslims, we should concentrate on what we share in common about Jesus, even while we are aware of what we disagree about regarding Jesus.

You quoted from the Quran:

3:45 (And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from Him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).

3:47 She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me? He said: So (it will be). Allah createth what He will. if He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.

The verse that proves the divinity of Jesus is 3:47: “Mary said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me?” and the verse that declares He was the Messiah as Christians claim is 3:45: “When the angels said: O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from Him, whose name is the MESSIAH, JESUS…”

The following verse however seems to contradict the two above:

3:59 Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is.

Adam was made by God from dust as a potter makes a pot from clay. Adam is God’s creation. However Jesus was born of a virgin and that is the basis of His divinity. The child that is born to the potter from his wife is not the same as the pot he fashions from clay. The child is the flesh and blood of the potter whereas a pot is the creation of his hand. The difference between Jesus and Adam is that simple.

Jesus was divine because He had no earthly father, and He was human because He had an earthly mother. He was limited in space and time because He was born of a human mother and had a human form. His human form made Him vulnerable like any other human being.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

All this debate about what a bunch of ancient political conmen did or didn't say!!

You don't actually believe what ancient politicians wrote, do you? No, you couldn't be that stupid.

HL,
You obviously don't understand the difference between veneration and worship. Christians venerate saints but worship only God.

Regardless of whether one 'venerates' or 'worships' Mary (due to careless usage of words) Christians do not regard Mary as part of the Trinity nor do they consider her a goddess. I think Qasim Omar's verse showed Allah mistook the 'veneration' of Mary as worshipping her as a God.

Interestingly, there was a heretical sect in Arabia at the time of Muhammad called 'Collyridianism' which did worship Mary as a God. However, this is not mainstream doctrine and Jesus certainly did not teach his followers to worship his mother as a god.

So - why didn't Allah know that Jesus never taught his followers to worship Mary as a God?

Also, the term, "Mother of God" does not imply Mary was a God. It shows you do not understand the difference between Jesus as a Man and Jesus as part of the Trinity. When Christians say, "Mary, Mother of God", they don't mean Mary was a God which is the misunderstanding of your Allah.

And when God said: “You Jesus Mary's son, did you say to the people 'Take me and my mother as two gods from other than God?”

The worship of Mary, though repudiated by the Protestants, was widely spread in the earlier Churches, both in the East and the West.

I found this article by some Catholic person who says: “…sometime in the early history of the Church, our Blessed Mother was given the title "Mother of God." St. John Chrysostom (d. 407), for example, composed in his Eucharistic Prayer for the Mass an anthem in honor of her:

"It is truly just to proclaim you blessed, O Mother of God, who are most blessed, all pure and Mother of our God. We magnify you who are more honorable than the Cherubim and incomparably more glorious than the Seraphim. You who, without losing your virginity, gave birth to the Word of God. You who are truly the Mother of God."

We have here a happy family: God, the son who is also God, and Mary the mother of God, not of the first one who is the Father but the second one who is the son, and the lowly Holy Spirit, poor one all alone. Sort of make you feel sorry for the him.

In early Christianity there were many sects, denominations, heretics, and schisms. Everyone has their views and beliefs about who Jesus was and if his mother should ever be venerated. The Quran’s main audience was the seventh century people of Arabia. It should not be surprising then if Mary was viewed as God since she is the mother of God. There is no way to tell if there were such people then who viewed Mary as god since she is the mother of God. It hurts my head even thinking about it; Mary is the mother of God but she is not God; what kind of nonsense is this.

Pamela asks:

"Clear enough?"

Posters please give Pam a break. She's unsure of herself and must need time to think things through. Not only is she struggling to make herself clear in her posts, -she is completely unable to address and defend her own comments when questioned.

HL,
So why Allah had to ask Jesus if he taught the concept of the Trinity? Didn't Allah know Jesus never did this?

So why Allah had to ask Jesus if he taught the Trinity consists of Jesus, Mary and Allah? Didn't Allah know Jesus never did this?

What's this heresy about Mary in the Trinity? Didn't Allah know this?

Seems to me instead of disproving Christianity, since you have no clue about the doctrine of Jesus as Man and God, you have disproven Allah.

In the book of John, chapter 10, the Jews accuse Jesus falsely of claiming to be God. He however replies, proving their accusation wrong by their own text:

"The Jews answered him saying, 'For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy, and because that thou being a man, makest thyself a God '(John 10:33)."

Jesus replies to this accusation saying:

"Jesus answered them, 'Is it not written in your Law, "I said ye are gods." If He can call them gods, unto whom the word of God came, say ye of him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world, "Thou blasphemeth," because I said I am the son of God?' (John 10:34-36)."

In the language of the Bible, in Psalms 82 from which Jesus quotes above, the word "gods" is used by God to describe the prophets ("to whom the word of God came"). Jesus argues with the Jews that if God can call the prophets "gods", then his saying that he is the "son of God," is no claim to divinity, just as the other prophets were not God just because they were referred to as gods by God himself.

The point that Jesus makes to the Jews is further proven by the use of the term "Son of God," in both the Old and the New Testament. Metaphorically speaking, God is the cherisher and sustainer and hence the "Father" of everybody. This doesn't mean that the person so described as a "Son of God" is physically begotten by God or of the same nature as God or literally the "son" as humans have biological sons. Otherwise the term "son of God" would not make any sense.

God by definition signifies one who received his existence from nobody, whereas son signifies someone who received his existence from somebody else. God and son are mutually exclusive terms, they cannot go together. The use of the term by Jesus and in other places in the Bible is metaphoric and not literal.

The many Sons of God in the Bible:
1. Luke 3:38 "...Adam which was the Son of God."
2. Genesis 6:2 &4 "That the sons of God saw the daughters of men...and when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men..."
3. Exodus 4:22 "Israel is my son even my first born."
4. Romans 8:14 "For as many as are led by the spirit of God are called sons of God,"
5. Matthew 5:9 "Blessed are the peace-makers for they shall be called sons of God."

By the above quotations from the Bible it should be clear that the term "Son of God," signifies only a righteous person. It does not mean that the person so titled is divine, or we would have hundreds of Gods according to the Bible. Jesus is described as the "son of man," 83 times in the New Testament whereas he's described only 13 times as the Son of God. What we also see is that Jesus used the terms, "Your Father," "Thy Father," describing God's relationship with people 13 times before the first time he ever said, "My Father," about God. All these show that he was in no way implying that God physically begot him or he was unique as a "Son of God".

It is claimed that in John 3:16 (the favorite verse of the evangelists) that Jesus is referred to as the only Son of God. A careful reading of the verse compared to Hebrews 11:17 shows that Isaac is described as the only son of Abraham, whereas literally speaking Isaac was never the only son of Abraham as Ishmael was born before him. The use of the word is metaphoric; Jesus was special among the sons of God but certainly not unique or begotten. As a side note, in the NRSV has John 3:16 as follows: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only son, so that everyone …” Notice that the word begotten is missing. Some translators just add the word begotten to further their own theology.

Peter in the Book of Acts testifies about Jesus:

"O you men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a MAN approved of God among by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you (Acts 2:22)."

Jesus thus even to his disciples, as to early Christians, not poisoned by Pauline doctrine, was a man, not a God.

“…but now you are trying to kill me, a MAN who has told you the truth that I heard from God.” (John 8:40)

Now if Jesus and the Holy Spirit were the same, to blaspheme one would be the same as blaspheming the other. In the Bible we are told that no one born of a woman can be pure (Job 25:4). Jesus was born of a woman, his mother Mary, so he likewise must have been impure. Now if Jesus was impure how could he be God? We are told that Jesus was dead for three days before ascending into heaven.

How can God possibly die? Who was looking after the universe while he was dead? Jesus said that at the end of the world he would be sitting at the right hand of God to judge the world (Lk 22:69). If Jesus and God are the same being, how is this possible? Quite clearly the two are separate and different. And again David is described as sitting on the right hand of God, so to do this one does not have be a god (Ps 110:1). We are told that Jesus stands between God and man.

“For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ” (1 Tim 2:5).
This passage clearly states that Jesus is not God, for if he was, how could he stand' between God and men? It also specifically calls Jesus a man.

“Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.” Luke 18:19.

Now if Jesus was God why would he deny that he was good?

We are told that Jesus prayed, but if he was God why would he need to pray to himself? And when Jesus prayed, he said to God, "not my will but yours" Luke 22:42. Quite clearly Jesus is making a distinction between God's will and his own.

Dear Pamela,
Can you please enlighten us as to why you believe in Allah even though he got the Christian Trinity so wrong?

Please read Qasim's post above. It seems to me very convincing that Allah cannot be a true god since he didn't understand the Christian concept of the Trinity and what exactly Jesus himself taught.

Every Muslim I know makes it quite clear we believe in Jesus as a Prophet, not as a part of a Trinitarian God, nor as a sacrificial lamb for Adam's sin which is supposed to taint all humankind. We believe Adam's sin tainted only Adam, and Eve's sin tainted only Eve. Jesus is a prophet like any other, and as such a guide to humankind.

I certainly do not believe in Jesus as my personal savior because of his crucifiction; I do believe that through his teachings we can come to God, which is indeed the path to salvation.

Clear enough?

As you might have noticed from the above post (compare John1:18 to Genesis 32:30 and Exodus 33:11 ), contradictions are everywhere in the bible. As Muslims we believe that the bible has in it the word of God, the word of the prophets, and the word of men; all together in the same book. Which is which is for you to decide. The bible has some truths in it as well as banalities and superstitions. We, Muslims, have the Quran which states that God is the author and the speaker. The supposed sayings attributed to the Prophet Muhammad are located in other books. The writing by men about the Quran and the hadith are in separate literature. Here is where the Quran cleans the bible from the nonsense.

(He is) the Creator of the heavens and the earth: He has made for you pairs from among yourselves, and pairs among cattle: by this means does He multiply you: there is nothing whatever like unto Him, and He is the One that hears and sees (all things). To Him belong the keys of the heavens and the earth: He enlarges and restricts the Sustenance to whom He wills: for He knows full well all things. 42.11-12

[God is saying here that whatever you children of Adam might imagine God to be he is not like that. He is beyond human comprehension; our human mind can not fathom his glory; sort of like what is said in Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.]

We Muslims believe that God does not reveal Himself to us but He reveals His will through the prophets and the messengers.

‘It is not fitting for a man that God should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with God’s permission, what God wills: for He is Most High, Most Wise. And thus have We, by Our Command, sent inspiration to you: you knew not (before) what was Revelation, and what was Faith; but We have made the (Qur’an) a Light, wherewith We guide such of Our servants as We will; and verily you do guide (men) to the Straight Way, -The Way of God, to Whom belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on earth. Behold (how) all affairs tend towards God!’ 42.51-53

The story of Moses desiring to see God is mentioned in the Quran too; but without the ‘I will let you see my back side not my face’ absurdity.

7:142 We appointed for Moses thirty nights, and completed (the period) with ten (more): thus was completed the term (of communion) with his Lord, forty nights. And Moses had charged his brother Aaron (before he went up): "Act for me amongst my people: Do right, and follow not the way of those who do mischief."

7:143 When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." God said: "By no means can you see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shall you see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to you! to you I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe."

7:144(God) said: "O Moses! I have chosen you above (other) men, by the mission I (have given you) and the words I (have spoken to you): take then the (revelation) which I give you, and be of those who give thanks."

As you can see there are no back sides and no hands over faces to worry about.

repost:

"How can you take seriously someone who calls Muslims "islamics?" No one anywhere calls Muslims that."

Pam, do you get out much? Run a search of ISLAMICS on google news.

Please expound on "all the junk people keep trying to lay at Islam's doorstep." What do you mean? Two or three examples, please.

And give us your understanding of Sunni/Shia, Hamas/Fatah, Janjaweed/African violence.. Shed the intellectual veil and speak as a true progressive, or we will be forced to judge you as another ineffectual "moderate muslim" shill.

The obvious reason why history is littered with hundreds of different gods is because they were all invented by insecure human beings. There are many people on this board who still haven't been able to work out that all religion was created by ancient politicians, for their own political benefit.

You're not so gullible as to believe what ancient politicians told the uneducated people of their time to believe, are you? No. You couldn't possible be that gullible, could you?? What - you live your life according to what the ancient politicians said?? No. You can't be serious. Please tell me you're joking.

Frank,

Anon. = HL not Pam; Please leave Pam out of this.

Frank,

Your ignorance of the bible is astounding. Please read the following about seeing God.

Excodus 33: 18 Then Moses said, "Now show me your glory." 19 And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live." 21 Then the LORD said, "There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by.

[God, it seems, has a face and a back side. The Christians say Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God and they mean it litterally as if God has front, back, top, bottom, right, and left. Another way of saying God is just a hugely big and powerful man, anthropomorphic God]

23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen."

Genesis 32:30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."

Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle

to pam who pretended to be the man with all the questions:

Luke 10:22 (Whole Chapter)
"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

John 1:18 (Whole Chapter)
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, [ Or the Only Begotten] [ Some manuscripts but the only (or only begotten) Son] who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

John 8:18 (Whole Chapter)
I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."

John 10:36 (Whole Chapter)
what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

its not that islam does not believe in the trinity - its this bs that pam and other islamics put out pretending that they believe in jesus just like christians do, WHICH IS JUST ANOTHER ISLAMIC LIE. they should try telling the truth once in a while.
and its not that islam does not believe in the trinity - its the command that anyone who does should be killed.
and moho the child rapist got it wrong is that he had little or no education, did not remember what he was actually told from the jews and christians he got information from, and as most fools do, got it all mixed up, and he never talked to god or allah. he did not talk with the first becasue the god of the old and new testament would not engage in discourse with such a vile thing as moho. and he did not talk to allah because there is no such thing.
and notice they do not use the name of jesus in the koran, they make up a different name. its not just a translation problem either. as others have pointed out, arabic names have a special meaning for them, but the islamic name for jesus is devoid of any meaning at all.

The pertinent question is not why Christians believe in the Trinity but why Allah got the concept of the Christian Trinity so wrong.

Of course the word Trinity is not in the Bible. Who said it should be? The word merely means 3.

There are other trinities - for example, the Greek pagan Trinity and the Hindu Trinity. The word is just something to label a concept of the 3 aspects of God (as Christians believe it). Those aspects - God himself, the Holy Spirit and Jesus as the Son of God are all in the Bible.

Since these concepts are in the Bible, the Christians merely made up a convenient label to refer to them collectively.

Let’s look at the doctrine of the Trinity through 51 questions and we will readily see that it is truly absurd and false if we try an answer these questions. It does NOT stand up to scrutiny. Check your own Bibles with respect the scriptures mentioned in many of the questions and seriously think on the others; be like the Boerns at Acts 17:11, “Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of the mind, examining the Scriptures daily, whether these things were so.” (American Standard Version; ASV) and only accept sound doctrine in keeping with the admonishment given at Titus 2:1, “But speak thou the things which befit the sound doctrine” (ASV):

1. If belief in the Trinity is so important to our salvation why isn't the word "Trinity", or the concept of three being one found in the Bible?

2. Why didn't the apostles and early Christians believe in the Trinity? (If you say they did, prove it from the Scriptures or quotations from one of the ante-Nicene Fathers before 200 AD.)

3. Since the Trinity was so contrary to the Jewish belief in God, why didn't Jesus and his apostles expend considerable time and effort in teaching and stressing the Trinity so as to convince the Jews of the truth of it, as they did other Christian teachings?

4. If the Trinity Doctrine was a solidly based truth, why didn't Jesus and his disciples contradict the Shema of the Old Testament? "Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah." (Deut 6:4) Jesus even quoted this scripture at Mark 12:29.

5. Why would God tell his people to have nothing to do with the Pagan nations, if those Pagan nations had the right concept and beliefs about God? (a Trinity concept of God, as part of their worship, can be traced to virtually all Pagan nations of ancient times)

6. If Jesus is God, then who is the God of God? Jesus speaks of "my God" even in heaven. Why does Jesus say he has a God, if indeed he was God? (John 20:17; Revelation 3:12; 1:6; 1 Peter 1:3; 2 Cor. 1:3; Eph. 1:17; Ps. 89:26; Mark 15:34; Col. 1:3; Heb. 1:9; Ps. 45:7) Why is it that never in the Bible is the Father reported to refer to the Son as "my God", nor does either the Father or the Son refer to the holy spirit as "my God"?

7. Why is the Holy Spirit's role of the Trinity played down so much? Since the scriptures tell us that Mary was made pregnant by Holy Spirit, that would make the Holy Spirit THE FATHER. So who was the Father Father of?

8. Whose voice was it that spoke from the heavens when Jesus was baptized?

9. Who was Jesus praying to when he prayed? Himself?

10. If Jesus were God, why would Satan waste his time trying to tempt him? Was God Vulnerable?

11. Who has immortality? God? Jesus died (an impossibility of one with immortality) and was dead for parts of three days. How could God die? Who resurrected him? (Heb 5:7; Rev 2:8)

12. Who was Jesus talking to when hanging on his torture stake at Matthew 27:46? "About the ninth hour Jesus called out with a loud voice, saying: '...My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'"

13. Since the doctrine of the Trinity states that the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are coexistent and coequal; was Jesus lying at John 14:28 when he said "The Father is greater than I."? If Jesus meant he, as one third of the Trinity, was less the whole of the three in the Godhead then why did he not rather say 'God is greater than I'? How could Jesus state that one person of the Trinity was greater than another person of the Trinity? If the Son was lesser than himself while on earth, then where was that part of him that was coequal and coexistent with the Father?

14. If John 10:30 shows that Jesus and God are the same person when it says: "I and the Father are one.", explain John 17:20-26, "...in order that they may be one, just as we are one." Who was Jesus talking to? Does this mean that Jesus' true disciples are the same as God and Jesus and thus are apart of the Trinity (many-entity)?

15. If Jesus was really God on earth, how would there be a corresponding ransom? That would make Jesus a perfect God/man, while Adam was just a perfect man.

16. Who is the Son subjecting himself to at 1 Corinthians 15:28?

17. Does Matthew 3:11 indicate that the Holy Spirit is a person? (Water and fire are not persons)

18. How could the Holy Spirit be a person when it filled about 120 disciples at the same time? (Acts 2:4) How can you be full of someone?

19. If Jesus were Almighty God, why didn't Jesus correct Simon Peter when he asked him who he thought he was and Peter answered "You are the Son of the living God."? (Matthew 16:15-17)

20. If Jesus is God, explain the scripture at John 1:18, "No man has seen God."

21. Explain Revelation 1:1, if Jesus was God. If Jesus himself were part of a Godhead, would he have to be given a revelation by another part of the Godhead, God? Surely he would have known all about it, for God knew.

22. If Jesus is God, why call him Jesus Christ? Is Christ his last name? God was known as Jehovah God. Since "Christ" is just a title just like "God" is a title, shouldn't we just call him Jesus God? Or could it be that the tit le "Christ" gives us insight as to Jesus' position in relation to the Father?

23. Explain what the apostle Paul was concerned about in 2 Corinthians 11:3,4; Galatians 1:6-9; and Acts

20:29. Could it be he was warning about doctrines such as the Trinity? The Trinity Doctrine is of Pagan origin. That is Historical Fact. It was not accepted into the Christian Congregation until hundreds of years after the apostles were dead and gone. In 325 C.E. It was a non-Christian, a not baptized Pagan, who had murdered his son, his second wife, and several others of his relatives, who was responsible for bringing it into the Congregation as dogma. The Trinity teaches quite a different Christ than the apostle Paul taught. (l Corinthians 11:3, 8:5,6)

24. If the proper translation of John 1:1 is "God" and not "a god", simply because of the lack the "a" in the Greek text before the anathrous noun, God, then the same must be true of Acts 28:6. Why have ALL translations added the "a" in this scripture showing the apostle Paul to be thought "a god" instead of "God" when the preposition "a" doesn't exist in the Greek Text? Could it be that the context indicates such a translation as the correct one? Take a closer look at the context of John 1:1.

25. John 5:19 tells us that the "Son does nothing on his own". Why not?

26. Philippians 2:9-11 tells us that the Son was "exalted". When was this, and how is this possible if he is the Supreme One himself?

27. How is it that the Son is subjected to God along with all other things if the Son is coequal with the Father, or rather IS the Father also? (1 Corinthians 15:27,28

28. Who was Jesus talking to, and whose name had he made known? His Own? (John 17:6,26)

29. Why couldn't Jesus do anything of his own initiative, if he is Almighty God? (John 5:30 "I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative;...I seek not my own will but the will of him that sent me.") If Jesus were God, would he not send himself? (John 6:38 "Not my will, but the will of him that sent me.")

30. Who made Jesus come to the earth to die for us? Was it his idea? Hebrews 2:9 says: "but we behold Jesus who has been made a little lower than angels, crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, that he by God's undeserved kindness might taste death for every [man]." It was God who sent him. If Jesus were God, why even make the distinction here, as is done throughout the Scriptures?

31. In view of Hebrews 2:9, could God ever at any time be lower than the angels? He is Almighty to time indefinite.

32. If Jesus were God, how could he appear before the person or presence of himself? Hebrew 9:24 states: "For Christ entered, not into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, now to appear before the person (presence KJB) of God for us."

33 . Could it really be possible that the Almighty God and the creator of the universe was confined for nine months in the womb of Mary. If so, why didn't Satan take over the heavens with his demon angels and procure worship for himself, since this is what he has wanted from the beginning?

34. Since the angels are also called Sons of God (Gen 6:2), what does it mean that Jesus was God's only begotten son? (John 1:14; John 3:l6; 1 John 4:9) [Jesus was the only one directly created by God. All other things were created through (Greek: di', meaning instrument used) Jesus. Colossians 1:16-18. Gen 1:26 "Let us make man in our image." Jesus was his father's Master Worker. (Prov 8:22)]

35. If Jesus was God and from time indefinite to time indefinite, the Alpha and the Omega, without a beginning, etc., how could he be referred to as the FIRSTBORN of all creation, or the BEGINNING of creation? (Col 1:15; Rev 3:14

36. What is a son? If Jesus were actually God himself, why is he referred to as the Son of God, or God's Son over 85 times in the New Testament? Is the Bible making an inaccurate statement in each case? Why even describe him as the Son of God and confuse us if he was in fact Almighty God himself? Wouldn't it be simpler to just say that God came to the earth, the Almighty was born of a virgin, etc.? Why would Jesus continually talk about his Father in the heavens if in fact he was the Father in the form of the Son here on the earth? Wouldn't that be misrepresentation? (Luke 1:30-32)

37. If Jesus Christ is going to rule the Kingdom for a thousand years, (Revelation 20:4) who rules after that? 1 Corinthians 15:24 shows that Jesus turns all things over to GOD and his FATHER. Why would this be necessary if they are the same? Does this mean that Jesus turns it over to himself?

38. Mark 13:32 tells us: "Of that day or that hour no ones knows, not even the angel s in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." How could this be that the Father would know something that the Son would not, if they are truly coequal comprising one Godhead? And if, as some suggest, it was because the Son was limited by his human nature from knowing, why did the Holy Spirit not know?

39. "The mother of the sons of Zebedee...said to him [Jesus], 'Command that these two sons of mine may sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your Kingdom.' But Jesus answered,...'You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not my mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.'" (Matt 20:20-23) Why would Jesus say this if he was God? Was Jesus here merely answering according to his "human nature"? If, as Trinitarians say, Jesus was truly "God-man", both God and man, not one or the other, would it truly be consistent to resort to such an explanation? Does not Matt 20:2 3 rather show that the Son is not equal to the Father, and that the Father has reserved some prerogatives for himself?

40. Matthew 26:39 says: "Going a little farther he [Jesus Christ] fell on his face and prayed, 'My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.'" If the Father and the Son were of one substance and not distinct individuals, wouldn't such a prayer have been meaningless? Jesus would have been praying to himself, and his will would of necessity have been the Father's will.

41. Matthew 12:31,32 tells us: "Every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." Since if one sins against the Son and it is forgiven him, but if one sins against the Holy Spirit, it is no t forgiven him, does this mean that in some way the Holy Spirit is somehow greater than the Son? That would flatly contradict the Trinity.

42. The Hebrew word Shad dai' and the Greek word Pan tokra'tor are both translated "ALMIGHTY". Both original language words are repeatedly applied to Jehovah, the Father. (Exodus 6:3; Revelation 19:6) Why isn't this _expression ever applied to the Son or the Holy Spirit?

43. Since 1 Corinthians 11:3 says: "I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.", doesn't that show that God is of superior rank to Christ? Some feel that this is because Jesus was here on the earth. But it should be noted that this was written about 55 C.E., some 22 years after Jesus returned to heaven. So the truth here stated applies to the relationship between God and Christ in heaven.

44. Why isn't Jesus the One God that Christians are to worship? 1 Corinthians 8:5,6 reads: "Although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth - as indeed there are many 'gods' and many 'lords'-yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist." This presents the Father as the "one God" of Christians and as being in a class distinct from Jesus Christ.

45. Throughout the Scriptures Jesus is shown to be inferior to the Father in one respect or another such as at John 14:28 ("The Father is greater than I"). Since these Scriptures are often explained away by saying this was because the Son was limited by his fleshly form here on earth, does that mean that for 33 years there was no Trinity? Does that mean that for 33 years the Son was not Coequal, Coexistent, and Coeternal with the Father?

46. How can you use John 8:58 "Before Abraham was, I AM." and link it to Jehovah's statement at Exodus 3:14 "I AM has sent you"? Doing so would be making Jesus' statement "I AM" a title, a noun, thus making an improper sentence, an incomplete sentence, not making any sense. [EXAMPLE: Substitute any noun for "I AM": "Before Abraham was, house." etc.]

47. Why was Jesus viewed as the "one mediator between God and men,"? Since by definition a mediator is someone separate from those who need mediation, it would be a contradiction for Jesus to be one entity with either of the parties he is trying to reconcile. (Illustration: When Employers and Union personnel are negotiating a new contract, and are not getting anywhere, a Federal Mediator is called in to assist the two parties. He is impartial. He wouldn't be a fair mediator if he was actually an Employer, or a Union person would he? Likewise Jesus is a mediator between God and men. He is neither God or a man). When dealing only with one party you are not dealing with a mediator. As Galatians 3:20 states: "Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one, but God is one."

48. What does it mean when Jesus is called Jesus CHRIST? It is not his last name. Christ means "Anointed One". If Jesus is God, how is it that he has been anointed? And by whom? Anointing is the giving of authority or a commission by a superior to someone who does not already have authority. Jesus said: "Jehovah's spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor." (Luke 4:18) Here God is plainly the superior, for he anointed Jesus, giving him authority that he did not previously have.

49. How is it that Jesus had to learn obedience? Hebrews 5:8 tells us that Jesus "learned obedience from the things he suffered." Can we imagine that God had to learn anything? No but Jesus did, for he did not know everything that God knew. And he had to learn something that God never needs to learn, OBEDIENCE. God never has to obey anyone.

50. If Jesus is God, why did Stephen see two individuals in heaven? Stephen "gazed into heaven and caught sight of God's glory and of Jesus standing at God's right hand." (Acts 7:55) Clearly he saw two separate individuals. And if Jesus is part of a triune Godhead, why didn't Stephen see the Holy Spirit also, or three individuals?

51. If any of the above questions are ultimately answered with the statement: IT'S A MYSTERY, then explain the following scriptures: 1 Corinthians 2:10; 1 John 5:20; 2 Tim 2:7; Eph 3:5, 1 Pet 1:12; and Luke 24:45. [courtesy of D. Harris]

My favorite verse on Jesus in the Quran is this one:

al-Ma'idah 5:116
‏واذ قال الله ياعيسى ابن مريم ءانت قلت للناس اتخذوني وامي الهين من دون الله قال سبحانك مايكون لي ان اقول ماليس لي بحق ان كنت قلته فقد علمته تعلم مافي نفسي ولااعلم مافي نفسك انك انت علام الغيوب

Wa-ith qala Allahu ya AAeesa ibna maryama aanta qulta lilnnasi ittakhithoonee waommiya ilahayni min dooni Allahi qala subhanaka ma yakoonu lee an aqoola ma laysa lee bihaqqin in kuntu qultuhu faqad AAalimtahu taAAlamu ma fee nafsee wala aAAlamu ma fee nafsika innaka anta AAallamu alghuyoobi

And when God said: "You Jesus Mary's son, did you say to the people 'Take me and my mother as two gods from other than God?' He said: 'Your praise/glory, it is not to be for me that I say what is not for me with a truth, if I had said it, so You had known it, You know what is in my self, and I do not know what is in Your self, that You, You are all knower of the unseens.'"

First of all, Allah did not know whether Jesus had taught that the Christian Trinity comprised of Jesus, Mary and Allah, so he had to ask Jesus. So much for his omniscience.

Secondly, Christian Trinity = Jesus, Mary and Allah?

Thirdly, the Christian Trinity was the product of the Council of Nicaea in 325AD.

So how did Allah get it so wrong?

Pamela,

You said: "the vast majority of Muslims don't believe all the junk people keep trying to lay at Islam's doorstep."

Are you referring to the EVIDENCE that is laid at Islam's doorstep about the type of man Muhammad was, as recorded in the Islamic scriptures, and the EVIDENCE that reveals thousands of Muslims are under surveillance for their involvement in terrorism, for trying to follow the perfect example of their cult leader?

You may be a peaceful person, but your interpretation of Islam isn't Muhammad's interpretation. The Taliban and the terrorists share his interpretation, unfortunately.

"How can you take seriously someone who calls Muslims "islamics?" No one anywhere calls Muslims that."

Pam, do you get out much? Run a search of ISLAMICS on google news.

Please expound on "all the junk people keep trying to lay at Islam's doorstep." What do you mean? Two or three examples, please.

And give us your understanding of Sunni/Shia, Hamas/Fatah, Janjaweed/African violence.. Shed the intellectual veil and speak as a true progressive, or we will be forced to judge you as another ineffectual "moderate muslim" shill.

How can you take seriously someone who calls Muslims "islamics?" No one anywhere calls Muslims that.

If you can't even figure out the most basic information, it is hardly surprising you are ill-informed on other points as well.

At the very least, there is diversity of opinion with the Muslim community, as I've expressed on the comments threads. There may be people who accept some or all of the above, but that is not the only way to believe, and, in fact, the vast majority of Muslims don't believe all the junk people keep trying to lay at Islam's doorstep.

islamics, between the age of 12 and 70, and probably men. dont bother looking at anyone else.

Qur’an Chapter 4 Verse 157:
That they (the Jews) said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not [According to Muhammad, Jesus was never put on the cross, it was just an illusion. Muhammad said this in an attempt to destroy the credibility of both the Jews and the Christians, making it easier for him to convert Jews and Christians to Islam]

Qur’an Chapter 5 Verse 17:
“In blasphemy indeed are those that say that god is Christ the son of Mary.” [The penalty for blasphemy, taught by Muhammad, was death]

Qur’an Chapter 5 Verse 72, 73 & 75:
“They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." They do blaspheme who say: god is one of three in a trinity: for there is no god except one Allah. If they do not desist from their word of blasphemy, verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. Christ the son of Mary was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him.”

Qur’an Chapter 5 Verse 14:
From those too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the Message that was sent to them: so We estranged them, with enmity and hatred between one and the other, to the Day of Judgment. And soon will Allah show them what they have done.

Qur’an Chapter 5 Verse 51:
O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you that turns to them for friendship is of them.

So let's just pretend that the above verses don't exist, shall we, then we can all delude ourselves into believing that Islam is a peaceful and tolerant 'religion,' even as the bombs explode all around us and even as our Muslim citizens travel to fight against our soldiers. Politicians - it's time to come out of denial and wake up to the warnings that Churchill gave on Islam decades ago. It's an ideology, and the ideology is the opposite of multiculturalism. That's why there are 1,000's being monitored by our security forces and that's why our Muslim citizens are travelling to fight against our soldiers.

What happened in the Balkans is steadily repeating itself in Europe, exactly in line with the ideology. Ignorant political correctness and respect for a cult which demands to be called a religion puts us all at risk. In case you haven't noticed the cult promises to kill anyone who leaves the cult (and carries out those promises), and in case you haven't noticed, the cult threatens to kill anyone who speaks out against it (countless authors have been murdered around the world). And in case you haven't noticed, the cult threatens to kill anyone who even draws a cartoon of the cult leader.

Wake up, politicians. IT'S A CULT. There's only one type of organisation which promises to kill anyone who leaves the organisation, and that's a criminal organisation. Muhammad was a criminal by any definition of that word and he built a cult. He was a mafia type boss. Mafia bosses have people assassinated. Mafia bosses have people murdered for leaving the organisation. You have to be completely stupid not to recognise that Islam is a cult, started by a crime boss.

TERROR IN THE UK

An ICM poll reported by the BBC in November 2001 asked British Muslims the question: “Some people we have spoken to have said they approve of British Muslims going to fight America and its allies in Afghanistan. Do you approve or disapprove of Muslims going to Afghanistan to fight America and its allies?” The results of the poll were that 24% stated they approved (see: www.icmresearch.co.uk/reviews/2001/today-muslims-poll-nov-2001.htm).

The former Chief of the Metropolitan Police, Sir John Stevens, stated that “up to 3,000 British-born or British-based people have passed through Osama bin Laden’s training camps.” It should be noted that there are only 2 million Muslims in the UK. Half are women. Of the remaining half, at least half are too old or too young to attend a terrorist training camp, therefore 3,000 Muslim men out of a possible total of just 500,000 Muslim men of fighting age have already passed through Bin Ladens’s training camps, according to Sir John Stevens, and this could be an underestimate. So we have to come to terms with the fact that 1 in every 167 Muslim men of fighting age have trained in Bin Laden’s camps. That’s around three Muslim men for every Mosque in the United Kingdom.

Politicians must ask: “If the British authorities are aware that 3,000 British-born or British-based Muslim men have passed through Osama bin Laden’s training camps, how many more are they not aware of, and how many more are planning to train in one of these camps, and how many have at least thought about training in one of these camps, but haven’t yet acted on those thoughts?” These are reasonable questions for politicians to ask, if they are serious about protecting national security. It is quite possible that 3,000 represents just the tip of an iceberg.

Mr Blair, don’t you think that someone should start asking some politically incorrect questions for a change, in order to determine the true scale of the problem, and to protect our national security? What if the number who have thought about it is 10,000 or 20,000, or perhaps more? Don’t you think you should at least attempt to find out? We know from the ICM poll that 24% of British Muslims approved of British Muslims going to fight against our troops in Afghanistan. 24% of 2 million is 480,000. That means almost half a million British Muslims would support British Muslims going to fight against British soldiers. Doesn’t that worry you, Mr Blair? If not, then it should do. It should tell you to start listening very carefully to the warnings given by Sir Winston Churchill.

TERROR POLICE 'MONITOR THOUSANDS' – 2ND SEPTEMBER 2006
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5306580.stm
“Police in the UK are keeping watch on "thousands of people" who may be involved in terrorism, Scotland Yard's head of counter-terrorism says. Peter Clarke told a BBC Two documentary Al-Qaeda: Time To Talk? that his officers had to be focused on a "whole range of people". "Not just terrorists not just attackers but the people who might be tempted to support or encourage," he said. He recently described the intelligence picture in the UK as "very disturbing". BBC reporter Peter Taylor, who spent a year investigating the terror threat, asked Mr Clarke roughly how many people the police were looking at believing they could be involved directly or indirectly in terrorism. Mr Clarke said: "…All I can say is that our knowledge is increasing and certainly in terms of broad description, the numbers of people who we have to be interested in are into the thousands."”

Dame Eliza Manningham-Buller, head of the UK Secret Service, MI5, said in November 2006 that MI5 and the police were tackling 200 groups or networks totalling more than 1,600 identified individuals in the UK who are “actively engaged in plotting or facilitating terrorist acts”. She said “More and more people are moving from passive sympathy towards active terrorism through being radicalised or indoctrinated by friends, families, in organised training events here and overseas. Young teenagers are being groomed to be suicide bombers.” So, we have to come to terms with the fact that not only do we have 1,600 British Muslims actively engaged in terrorist activities, but these 1,600 were indoctrinated by their friends and families (i.e. the Muslim community).

A Channel 4 poll for Dispatches in August 2006 revealed a third of British Muslims would prefer to live under Islamic Sharia law than under British law. The same poll also revealed that a quarter of British Muslims believe the 7/7 terrorist attack was justified due to the British government’s participation in the US led “war on terror”. In 2005 a YouGov poll revealed that a third of British Muslims hold the belief that “Western society is decadent and immoral, and Muslims should seek to bring it to an end, but only by nonviolent means”. Again, this means that a third of British Muslims want to replace the British legal system with the Islamic legal system of Sharia Law.

Politicians, we have NEVER before had British citizens going to fight against British troops abroad. We have NEVER had british citizens bombing their own country for a foreign ideology.

Islamic ideology (the ideology of Muhammad) is going to lead us into a massive war, throughout the multicultural world, unless politicians decide to do something about it before the inevitable happens. Appeasement will end in war. Appeasement is NOT the answer.

Pamela,

I’m thinking about submitting to Islam and becoming a Muslim. I would like some advice from yourself and other Muslims on this forum.

I understand that I will be required to emulate Muhammad’s perfect example if I become Muslim, and that if I do then any behavior of his that I emulate accurately will be perfectly moral in Islam. I also understand that if I accurately emulate his behaviors it is blasphemy for any Muslim to criticize my behavior, and that the punishment for blasphemy in Islam is death, according to the Qur’an.

Please can the Muslims on this forum therefore tell me if it would be good and moral Islamic behavior to emulate these perfect behaviors of Muhammad, which are all recorded in the Sahih Hadith by several different authors:

1) Kill an apostate Muslim for leaving Islam and converting to another faith?

2) Kill some unbelievers for refusing to convert to Islam?

3) Kill any women who have admitted committing adultery?

4) Kill anyone who admits to being homosexual, for committing a serious 'crime' against Allah?

5) Cut off the arms and legs of anyone who steals my property, blind them with hot nails and then leave them in the heat of the sun to die a slow death?

6) Dig up and desecrate the graves of Pagans and then build a mosque over those graves to strike fear into the hearts of Pagans?

7) Become a highway robber. Stop traders as they transport their goods, take the goods off them or kill them if they refuse to hand over their possessions?

8) Go to war in the cause of Islam and rape any unbelieving women I manage to capture in order to bring shame and humiliation upon their people?

9) Keep some of the unbelieving women and children I capture as slaves (war booty), on the basis that I do not need their permission to have sex with them, because their bodies belong to me, the slave owner?

10) Sell some of my raped sex slaves for weapons, for use in my next jihad or highway robbery?

11) Marry a little nine year old girl and consummate the marriage with her immediately?

I can provide overwhelming evidence from the Sahih Hadith (the hadith which all Muslims consider to be sound and authentic, and upon which Sharia law depends) that Muhammad did all these things or authorized these behaviors.

As I understand it I would be a very good Muslim indeed if I accurately emulated these perfect behaviors of Muhammad, and it would be blasphemy for any Muslim to criticize my behavior if I can show that the Sahih Hadith record that Muhammad did these things or authorized these behaviors. Under Sharia law my behaviour would be considered exemplary.

Please explain why it would not be blasphemy for you to criticize such behaviors.

why must you always lie. why do you pretend to that which you know to be false. islam hates christians, and says so all over the koran. give it up and at least be truthful.

what the koran really thinks of jesus and his followers:
first, they do not believe that jesus is the son of god, to them he is a second class prophet, second to the child rapist moho.
"9.30": And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away! "

and christians do not say jesus is the son of allah, there is no such god, allah is some fake thing made up by the child rapist and no real chirstian would ever confuse the two.

"5.57": O you who believe! do not take for guardians those who take your religion for a mockery and a joke, from among those who were given the Book before you and the unbelievers; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah if you are believers."

or this part where they say jesus did not die on the cross.
"4.157": And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure."
this means they deny the very basis of being christian. and lets not forget - no one in the old or new testament ever mentioned the fake god allah.

"4.171": O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector."

and in that passage all of the beliefs of christians is tossed out by islamic scum.

lets not forget this one:
"5.73": Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve."

and in the above they give permission to kill those who believe tht jesus is the son of god and the thrid person in the trinity of the father, son and holy spirit.

i used to think of islam as a valid religion but the more i read and understand it i have learned it is nothing more than a cult of death started by a vile child rapist who thought only of a way to obtain personal power and riches and a fake religion, built on older and reputable religions, was a good way of doing it.

The question is why? Why would the God of Abraham, Isaac, Moses, and Jesus, need a child rapist to violate every principal that had been given to the Jews and Christians over the last 3,000 years?
Why would God, who spent more than 2,500 years grooming the Jews, saving them from slavery at the hands of Egyptians, taking them to freedom, defeating every enemy they had, and then fulfilling the long disclosed prophesy of a Messiah, [ok the Jews don't believe that part] create a religion that hated the very people God protected? Why would God, who gave the world Jesus, who told the world that the most important commandment after the love of God, and then tell us that loving thy neighbor as thyself was the next most important commandment, now needed to be replaced by the concept of hate, torture, kidnaping, ransoms, murder and forced conversions? And why would that same God, who now had Jews and Christians doing well, need another religion to hate them and seek to murder them?
The answer is - God did not need to do it and God did not do it!
mohamad's first lie was his assertion that he was a decedent of Abraham through Ishmael, the bastard son of Abraham and his wife's maid, Hagar. Other than moho saying it, there is not one shred of proof that it is correct. Nothing at all. While the Jews can trace their own history, and there is no doubt that Jesus was a Jew, and went through all of the required rituals of Judaism, there is nothing to help with the lie of moho, re Ishmael, for which no proof exists.
And after Jesus what the world really needed was a child rapist named moho - and yes having sex with a 9 year old is rape, to father another religion. No one that young has any capacity to consent to sex, they would not even know what they were allegedly consenting to. And then there are the lessons of moho. This alleged god commanded islamics to hate every Jew or Christian or Hindu [who did not even know of islam when they first declared war on the others] do not associate with them, do not be friends with them, do not work with them, but to take them prisoners, hold them for ransom, sell them into slavery, torture them, cut off their body parts, and if they don't join your religion, well just kill them. Why in the hell would any God, after the coming of the Prince of Peace, decide that a constant state of war - islam has been at war with the rest of the world for 1400 year, and hate and murder, was the way to go?
The answer is - NO GOD, but the DEVIL sure loves it.
What group of people has provided more fodder for hell than islam and those that follow it. And they do it so well too. If people tell them that forced conversions are wrong, millions march in the street for what they say is their god given right to murder to increase their numbers, and demand death for anyone who says they can't kill you if you will not convert.
And they hate their children too. Even now they use characters like Mickey Mouse to teach little children that strapping bombs onto themselves and blowing up other children, just because they are Jewish, is what the islamic god wants them to do.
So let me be plain. islam is not a religion it's a cult. moho is not a prophet, he is a child raping terrorist, that pretended he had a religion to contradict real religious beauty, and which then and now has as its only goal, conquest and slavery. And in 1400 years it never did anything else. Its time to put an end to islam, and to quit pretending its anything but a terrorist organization bent on conquest. Its time the world took what ever action was needed to put a final stop to islam and its cult of death.

islam is not a religion it is a terrorist organization - it has always been so and will remain so until it is completely destroyed.
islamics always say the same thing and do something else. but the islamic cult must be addressed at every opportunity, just like skin heads and nazi's and the kkk. you cannot be allowed to utter one lie without people pointing out to the world that it is a lie and that islamics are nothing but terrorists as long as they keep the koran as the rules they live by.
so burn with islamic hate as i tell the world that islam is not a religion, its a cult.
that 1400 years of islam attacking everyone not islamic is proof that all your cult wants is war.
that no messenger of any god can be that and rape little girls too. that is what moho is - a child rapist. he admitted having sex with a 9 year old and that is rape!
that moho lied about being in a line from abraham, via ishmael. its a lie and there is not one bit of proof that it happened. just moho saying it, nothing else.
that islam hates its children as much as it hates everyone else. who but islamics would take a cartoon character like mickey mouse and turn it into a hate message to kill jews and create more murdering scum who think killing other children as a good thing.
and other than moho saying it no one actually believes that your fake god allah, has any connection at all with the god of the old and new testament. as if jesus would ever take a piece of dog crap like moho and tell him that what god really wants is a new religion that hates, tortures, kidnapp, ransom and murders those who will not join allah. you have to be nuts to think that people really believe it. the problem is they want to get you to quit your war like ways to spread islam and they are pretending to buy into that dung in the hope you will start acting like human beings. but it will not work, they just feed your hate and belief that you can force the rest of us to our knees before you.
you are close to starting your world war, a war that will eventually come and you will lose, becasue in the end you will have to come out of hiding, blowing up little children in ice cream parlors or putting bombs in holes and running away will not get what you want. you will have to come out into the light and actually face your mortality.
islam is not a religion, moho was not a prophet he was a child rapist, and you can all eat crap and die for all i care. the rest of the world has been nice enough for long enough. we hear you - you are the enemy.