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how can it be wrong if i said "i think?"

the question mark invites correction, so thanks for the info.

since thats all you managed to find fault with- (and obviously you tried) i can only conclude you agree with everything else i said.

"( i think that was sly and the famly stone?)"

wrong again, victoria..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeqybFXR8qI

salaams jihadist, i see youve been holding up under fire as always. with grace too.

thanks for the well intended advice liberated-
such aplomb you display- such remarkable tact and control.

and again, since you SO enjoy telling me what i should do- of course ill get right on that.

your advice is always so gentlemanly and politely given-

if only other posters would follow your example of wise and sagely given counsel.

why wont everyone recognize your obviously superior intellect and moral imperative???

its a mystery indeed.

what would i do without your eloquent and compelling commentary?

its really been a struggle limping along before i could access your big brain and heart to give me guidance.

guess im just lucky.

A SALAAMU ALAIKUM WA RAHMATULAHI WA BARAKATU HANUMANIAC YOU JUST KEEP ON KEEPIN ON AND TRY TO MAKE THE BEST OF A BAD SITUATION ( i think that was sly and the famly stone?)

Victoria,

Give up your belief in "pretty wingie talking thingies" and join the world of realism by taking that one profound step. You could join Jihadist in her Global Religious Foundation taking another important step.

And the third step would be coming to grips with the founder of your religion i.e. Mohammed, an illiterate, hallucinating Arab had embellishing/hallucinating scribal biographers who not only added "angels" to include "demons of the demented" to the koran but also flying chariots and a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

as the subject is religions that question themselves- ive waited patiently for someone to give examples of other religious traditions that exhort self examination and investigation.

jihadist gives us an example of reason and tolerance in her viewpoint that belies the blanket accusations (too many to number) hurled at muslims in general.

since everyone is expecting her to be responsible for all the actions ofall the muslims-
it is conversely, only fair that all the muslims be judged by her logical and fair-minded responses?

no? judge (well best not to altogether) individuals on their own merit?
what a novel concept.

Jihadist,

You do not respond to my posts because you cannot answer the questions without coming to grips with the mythical/militaristic foundations of your religion.

And you claim you cannot by yourself do anything about the koran or the sins of other Muslims. That is not true since individuals like Mother Teresa, Ghandi, and St. Francis took individual action to correct many wrongs. "Mother Julia, Founder of the Global Freedom of Religion Movement" has a certian ring to it. Of course you will have to give up the Islamic requirement in belief in "pretty wingie talking thingies." Fear not, Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen have clipped "Gabes" wings so no harm will come to you.

In case you forgot about the mythical/militaristic foundations of Islam, once again I copy them for your perusal.

Mohammed, an illiterate, hallucinating Arab had embellishing/hallucinating scribal biographers who not only added "angels" to include "demons of the demented" to the koran but also flying chariots and a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

Frank Collins

That was a tease about being crucified:). Umm... since 9/11, 85,000 Americans are killed by other Americans. Islam and Muslims has nothing to do with it.

Annoynymous or Anonymouse?

Yeah, I can't get my Rolling Stones song right.

The screamers of God is Great, is of course, asserting God is on their side for political legitimacy. When Muslims go out screaming in the streets that God is Great, then, it is a very clear and dangerous indication that they have no more faith, no confidence, no trust at all in the corrupt and ineffective government of the day, or secular authority and laws, or any other party they opposed, and will fight the aforementioned to the death to restore justice and better governance in their minds. They don't necessarily make better governments once they secured power.
Or to be more open.

Having secured power by the gun, they have to maintain it by the gun and the resort to the same oppressiveness and injustice they fought against. Hence the continued cycle of unending violence. Good governance is held by Muslims to be by consensus and agreement of the community. So, in not compromising, accomodating and resorting to violence in the Middle East (from Palestine to Lebanon to Iraq to Afghanistan), they are all atrocious Muslims in that way.

They all insisted the party they are opposing are unjust and unreasonable. They are very right - all the warring sides engaged in armed conflicts are very unreasonable and unforgiving at this point even thought the majority of the respective populations are very weary and wants peace and security. And of course, third party and third countries overt and covert support sustain the conflicts.

Concerned :)

As I've said before, in another post weeks ago, I get my small time cheap thrills in not responding to your posts.

A Knighthood for Salman Rushdie:

A European Conspiracy to Provoke the Muslim World into another Kind of a Response.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNDOrU92S_k

'Another 'Anti-Christian story.''

Interesting you should call it 'Anti-Christian' when I relate stories about how Christians aren't immune to the kind of literalist fundamentalism you seem to insist all Muslims read *their* stuff with, and you simply *laugh* at it and dismiss that it ever happened, apparently, calling it 'Anti-Christian.'

Why should I waste the keystrokes?

And, yes, Frank, I do condemn Islamicist atrocities, as has Jihadist, and you've heard me say it, or should have. I've also heard you refer to a Muslim woman gunned down in America as a 'Murderess:' clearly you can't recognize voices of moderation because you know no moderation, yourself.

Christians in Mexico are selling women into slavery, too, and keeping them there as sex slaves under horrible conditions, *and making them pray*

Do you condemn that, or is it just 'laughable and anti-Christian' to say so, thus really about being a 'jihadist sympathizer?'

This is where hate, us-vs-them thinking, and self-righteousness gets you, Frank, ...unable to evaluate what anyone claiming your own 'side' does. If you want to hold every Muslim responsible for what is done in the name of *their* religion, well, then, turnabout is fair play.

You are an enabler of murder and oppression.

Not to mention an idiot. :)

But, we know that. I think we can see all the scorn and derision you seem to hope to apply to others returned threefold. Gods help you if they decide to take you up on your calling yourself 'pagan' even in attempt at derision. And offer some 'guidance.'

"Well, the man's obviously a literalist, he must mean exactly what he says," :)

Now let's see what you've won....

You see, Frank, you're the fool if you think you're 'fighting' *anything* in this manner, least of all injustice.

The terrorists have already defeated you if they've driven the ideals of America from your heart and mind. They want *followers,* and war and hatred are all *they* have. You're just dumb enough to supply them with the kind of caricatured enemy they love to hate.

If it comes to some big fight, sure, I'll defend America. But *your* world, that's not worth fighting for.

I'm not even really *in* it.

Excerpt from today's WaPo:

More evidence of a "moderate" and "tolerant" islam or shall we say "mohammedansim". Some tolerance...

"Mohammed Ijaz ul-Haq, Pakistan's religious affairs minister, said Monday of (Salman) Rushdie's knighting that: "The West is accusing Muslims of extremism and terrorism. If someone exploded a bomb on his body he would be right to do so unless the British government apologizes and withdraws the 'sir' title. Ul-Haq insisted Tuesday that he meant only that the award could be used as a justification for suicide attacks...() Pakistan's foreign minister told The Associated Press that Britain should not be surprised by the reaction."

Jihadist writes:

"For them all, it is fundamentally about POLITICS -who gets what, when and how; internal and external pressures and inteference; group and tribal alignments; who is a traitor, who is not in their conflicts on self-determination and rights."

Politics? Then WHAT and WHO inspired the pandemic civil conflict and violence by Muslims? And why do they all scream -ALLAH AKBAR- ?

BTY "When I die, I'll go to heaven: I've spent my time in Hell." Better check your sources.

Make that Jihadist "sympathizers" !!!!!

But never say the words, " I support global freedom of religion ". Without those, Jihadist, et al are simply conservative Muslims in liberal clothing following the hallucinations of an arab fortune teller. Considering the koran's directives, Jihadist and "her" sympatherizers are potential threats to our well-being.

Back to the topic, have any of you ever questioned the foundations of Islam and its "islamics"? The hallucinations, the illiteracy of the fortune teller, the obvious plagiarism, the militaristic and anti-female passages, the call for world domination, the 72 virgins, the state of heaven (spiritual vs. physical), the chariot rides, the required belief in mythical angels, the many sects, the new "fortune tellers", the no-escape clauses?????????????????????

..and Paganplace

.... very Christian, is it not, that I am and should be "crucified" for all the "sins" of Islam and Muslims?

Never mind. All part of On Faith threads' frank and concerned discussions on Islam and Muslims.

Regards

Heh, Well, J, I suppose that the sense of importance goes both was in that regard. People arguing like they could rewrite world religion at a shot instead of dealing with what *can* be dealt with.

And, heck, I'm the one that has to *live* in this country. :)

Gods, J. just looked up at the stars and thought about how far away we really are. :) They aren't all like this, I swear. :)

That's it for me, here, tonight. Peace. :)

Paganplace :)

Relax. I wanted to see their reactions and they are giving it in all their predictability and consistency here. Let them be creative and inventive in their invectives.

They flatter me too much with their name-calling and in demanding that I should be personally answerable to them on everything happening in the Muslim world, on Islam and Muslims and to single-handledly change Islam and Muslims.

Makes me feel more important and powerful than the United Nations' Secretary General and/or the Muftis of all the Muslim states in the world:)

Best regards

I mean, come *on,* Frank.

'Fleahadist?'

She's right. You think you know what everyone else believes so much better than they do, and I feel like I should be passing out 'cootie shots' or something.

What is this, second grade?

(why's second grade even *like* that, anyway? )

Twist words?

Big words from an 'anonymous' poster using f'n *schoolyard* insults about anyone whose religion he doesn't like.

Same old, same old Jihadist!! Same Islamic wishy-wash. Never anything about the 24/7 Sunni/Shiite bloodbath, suicide bombings across the Islamic world, the jailings, the assassinations, the protests/riots about cartoons, and the continued assault on Salman Rushdie. And the root cause of said occurrences, the Islamic Book of Death aka the Koran. Never anything about "cleaning up" this book and never anything about supporting global freedom of religion.

And to rephrase, "The Prophet, as a Messenger, conveyed God that is One and Indivisible should read "The Arab Fortune Teller in a fit of hallucination saw/heard the "angel" Gabriel of Christianic fame and declared the world his, based on the "angelic" AT&T message/promise from God/Allah/Zeus/et al. Death to those that don't believe the "Fortunetell" and his "thingie".

"so many Anonymouses"

Fleahadist:

"Asking me about the Middle East situation instead of asking the Palestinians, Iraqis and Afghans themselves? Just like me asking Americans on Argentina or France etc."

You are a Muslim. Palestinians, Iraquis, Afghans and you share a belief in the Koran. Uphold or condemn the actions of your coreligionists. If they are terrorists -speak the truth -don't twist words.

Ah yes......... so many Anonymouses on Islam and Muslims here:)

Don't take too well to what I've posted eh, in putting a wee bit more of a non-western Muslim perspective here.

Some observations : -

The same people who says Muslims are wrong in their beliefs are the same people who want Muslims to subscribe to another version of God and religious tenets, except for the atheists who think all believers of God are delusional and should be purged of all religious beliefs.

The same people who insisted on freedom of religion are the same people who would not let Muslims believe what they wanted to and are invariably evangelicals whose notion of freedom of religion is freedom to proselytize. They never call for freedom of beliefs, which would include freedom not to believe.

As for the "fool god" of Islam, well, let God be the judge of who is a fool or otherwise if you are a believer of God. If not, well, I am sure that you have met God face to face to know God is a fool and thus disbelief in God the Fool.

As for Hadiths recorded and quoted, as well as the biographies of the Prophet by classical Muslims scholars and writers, Muslim scholars certainly look at them in a more critical light than non-Muslims who quoted them at length here.

Some non-Muslim posters here seem to want to be "ultra conservative Muslims" on Hadiths, Suras and the Prophet's biographies and in insisting that one can't be a true Muslim if one does not believe all the biographies of the Prophet word for word. Please note that even the physical description of the Prophet in the biographies and Hadiths are contradictory.

The Muslim bigraphers and the Hadith collectors and recorders are, at least, more intellectually honest about the Prophet as a man and never seek to deify him nor brush out his flaws as a human or to redefine him or to edit out dubious and contradictory Hadiths.

The Prophet, as a Messenger, conveyed God that is One and Indivisible. Islam is not about Prophet Muhammad. It is about acknowledging there is a God, believing in God, and surrendering to that belief as a matter of faith, and to be at peace with it.

Muslims have no delusions, illusions or is in denial about the Prophet as a man of his time and of his deeds. It is Muslims who chose to see him as they want to see him, and to see him as he was.

As for "islamics", no Muslim would call himself/herself that. It is Frank Collins who coined that. It is like calling Christians, Christianics.

Secondly, no Muslim would call himself/herself a "moderate" Muslim. It is a term coined by western media to emcompass Muslims who are not extremists or fundamentalists and "fundamentalists", as the term we know it, comes from the US.

No Muslims like to call himself/herself a "liberal" Muslim either. Again, it is a term coined by the west. "Progressive" Muslims is acceptable to define those Muslims who want to move their Muslim community forward, relook the Hadiths and Suras critically in the context of current times and needs.

A terrorist is a terrorist and should be apprehended, charged in court and punished under law accordingly.

Asking me about the Middle East situation instead of asking the Palestinians, Iraqis and Afghans themselves? Just like me asking Americans on Argentina or France etc. I may be a Muslim, but I certainly don't have the full experience and knowledge of what the Palestinians, Afghans and Iraqis have and are going through. I don't have the higher moral ground to judge and lecture them on the failures of their leaders.

For them all, it is fundamentally about politics -who gets what, when and how; internal and external pressures and inteference; group and tribal alignments; who is a traitor, who is not in their conflicts on self-determination and rights.

As Mick Jagger sang, "When I die, I'll go to heaven for I've spent my time in Hell." I have been to all those places for humanitarian purposes. Ask them all who is the real cause of their miseries and they will tell you. It it not Judaism, Christianity or Islam that they cited as the cause of their miseries.

I can't say for certain who will go to heaven, who will go to hell. Even a devout and pious bona fide member of the Muslim ulema would not say who will or will not go to heaven, whether they are Muslim or otherwise. God is the final judge.

As for the Trinity of God, it is a core Christian belief and should be respected as such by others.

Maybe what *you* don't get, Frank, is that the world just don't break down that way, all systems, however damaging they may tend to be, aside.

It does not help to declare others 'vile and evil,' ...that only invests them more in staying inside the ore oppressive parts of a given system, because you're essentially making them think the world outside it is base and hostile:

Playing into the very system you deride.

It's not so different from Christianity, that way.

Both have nobler qualities.

What happens next... is up to us. As humans.

Tim.

How about if, ...there can be many Gods who aren't 'bad,' even if they aren't *your* particular god?

(A difficulty with talking to monotheists is that you presume that a) Polytheist Gods are worshipped as a 'bunch of True And Only Gods,' as you worship your one or few, and that b) 'My God and religion are the exclusive Gods Of All Good, So Everything Else Must Be Gods of Bad Things.')

What if just *maybe* it all fits together somehow, and we don't *have* to 'Have The One And Only Answer And Bow To Its Mortal Agencies Or Else?'

My Gods aren't 'Sex, Money, and Drugs' as the common defamation goes, Tim.

My Gods are the ones who say, 'Hey, honey, you been Christian once or twice, yourself.'

You think I'm really out to hurt you guys, or myself, for that matter?

Stop vilifying my people. And each other, for that matter. Whatever you say about it, people are getting hurt, and meanwhile, thie poisons are building up.

"it is always non-Muslims telling Muslims they are heretics, pagans, barbarians, etc who will burn in hell"

Jihadist:

Please comment on the vengeful and indiscriminate Muslim against Muslim violence in Gaza this week.

"Heretics, pagans, barbarians, etc who will burn in hell".. Is it any wonder? I'd love to hear you explain what looks like a HELLHOLE to non-Muslims.

Peganplace, you once again give me attention and this is something that is to be respected. You, I believe - but could be wrong so don't think I am being presumptuous, recognize that there can be many gods. Anybody can worship just one god. Big deal. Pick a god. Pick sex if you like. How about money. Or maybe drugs. We all hold something in the highest regard (I Hold Christ in the highest regard). Maybe our intellect we hold highest or our open mindedness. Whatever it is we then fashion customs and we make up ideas and we start up worthless rituals and traditions, like the Five Stupid Pillars. All ritual is worthless, the five pillars, the hail Mary's, the bobbing heads, and those dead liturgical services in most Christian churches. Custom and tradition and sacrifice are not where it is at. The true worship of Our Savior is in Spirit and Truth. The rest is dead thinking not free thinking. Paul said: For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Tradition is slavery.

Jesus was the Jewish God in the flesh walking on this earth. Virtually all if not all of the early Christians were Jews who accepted the fact that Jesus was the Messiah who is prophesied in the Bible. The Koran is neither part of the Jewish Bible nor the Christian Bible. The Koran lays down the attributes of Allah and both Christian and Jew will reject the Koran. Why would any Jew or Christian want our God to be polluted by what this Koran represents as God? Just because someone says they worship one God does not mean it is the God of the Old and New Testament. Not unless you want to accept the modifications made by Mohamed. For example, Ismael is Mohamed's key guy and not Isaiah. Both Christians and Jews agree on the same text here but not Mohamed. Here is what our Bible says about Ishmael: He shall be a wild ass of a man, his hand against every man and every man’s hand against him; and he shall dwell over against all his kinsmen." I think Mohamed took on Ishmael so that this prophesy could be fulfilled and indeed it has been fulfilled and continues to be so.

Hi, J! Good to see you: On this:

"How can you be sure the pagans/Druids, of, say, England of yore don't engage in violence too when they were the majority and primary belief? And surely they build Stonehenge by force too? Those stones comes from over 200 miles away from the site it is now."

Well, I can be sure the Druids didn't do so because Stonehenge was built by *neolithic* people , not Druids.

I ask, *How* would Neolithic people project "'force' over such a wide area as it would take to muster the workforce Neolithic population density and social structure for such a construction, without starving the people to death? With a piece of antler?

Don't think so.

""And I feel no shame in being a Muslim and prostrating myself in prayers in a mosque, in my home or anywhere else possible."

Actually, the point was the common presumption it's merely an act of 'pride' to *not* in any particular form.

"God cannot be define in human terms, but some Muslims do ascribe to God some characteristics understandble in human terms, as per the 99 Names of God. Some Muslim ulema are averse to that practice in making God seem puny and "human"."

Kind of the point. Especially if you define 'God' as exclusively-an-incomprehensible, untouchable, 'Only being,' ...it's a little arrogant to presume some bunch of words are some 'one right way' sanctioned, if not imposed by such a being.

"And by the way, where did a Muslim actually said -'Oh, well, you're just worshiping *our* idea of God in a different way, sooner or later, you'll stop being so stupid.'? "

Actually, it was quoted out of the Koran somewhere above. All-day discussion. :)

"I've never heard that, and it is always non-Muslims telling Muslims they are heretics, pagans, barbarians, etc who will burn in hell; or delusionals for believing in God. Whatever:). "

Well, I've said I think that's a dumb idea, too. :)

*spocking an eyebrow.*

Again with the bowing.

Curious.

*bow*

'Child of Adam.'

How many of these are enough for you?

Humble guy? ;)

Namaste. :)

Hello, hello

Still the confusion on what Allah (God in Arabic) and One God means?

Here we go again. Judaism and Islam has a similar concept of God. The Christian Trinity of God, is a concept and interpretation of God that Jews and Muslims don't quite share. Both Judaism and Islam is about the Oneness or Unity or Indivisibility of God.

And again, Muslims regard Islam as a continuation of beliefs from Adam to Moses to Jesus to Muhammad. The only difference is that, while Muslims acknowledge and deeply respect, they don't accept the divinity of Jesus and Trinity of God.

Naturally, through the ages, some of the more enthusiastic and passionate Christian writers take on Prophet Muhammad PBUH as a person - shooting down the Messenger so speak, for being heretical in not accepting the Trinity and Divinity of Christ.

I suppose Muslims can be classed as a Unitarian sect.

And Paganplace:)

How can you be sure the pagans/Druids, of, say, England of yore don't engage in violence too when they were the majority and primary belief? And surely they build Stonehenge by force too? Those stones comes from over 200 miles away from the site it is now.

And I feel no shame in being a Muslim and prostrating myself in prayers in a mosque, in my home or anywhere else possible.

God cannot be define in human terms, but some Muslims do ascribe to God some characteristics understandble in human terms, as per the 99 Names of God. Some Muslim ulema are averse to that practice in making God seem puny and "human".

And by the way, where did a Muslim actually said -'Oh, well, you're just worshiping *our* idea of God in a different way, sooner or later, you'll stop being so stupid.'? I've never heard that, and it is always non-Muslims telling Muslims they are heretics, pagans, barbarians, etc who will burn in hell; or delusionals for believing in God. Whatever:).

Best regards

Some people don't believe in the Afterlife yet they sure mess up their time in this world!
Anyway, Pam thanks for your much-needed contribution! I just want to add my perspective on the Prophet's denial of his responsibility - it may not be due to doubt, but more humbleness as he couldn't believe that he deserved such an honour. After all humbleness is the anti-thesis to Iblis(Lucifer) who demonstrates pride, and refused to bow down to our father Adam.

Some people don't believe in the Afterlife yet they sure mess up their time in this world!
Anyway, Pam thanks for your much-needed contribution! I just want to add my perspective on the Prophet's denial of his responsibility - it may not be due to doubt, but more humbleness as he couldn't believe that he deserved such an honour. After all humbleness is the anti-thesis to Iblis(Lucifer) who demonstrates pride, and refused to bow down to our father Adam.

Ironically enough, I find the 'Wingie thingies' the *least* distressing thing about these religious traditions. (Ever seen one? They predate monotheism by a far shot.)

Personally, I think it's just a really bad idea to put words in their mouths and call it an 'authority.'

"I do not think this means what you think it means."

Gandalf and Paganplace,

"We have met religions and found them wanting":

For the tenth time: (questions asked and answered to stay on topic)

1. Abraham founder of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have already put "Abe" on the myth pile along with most of the NT.

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth. Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of his sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian sects.

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, possibly hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the Koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

4. Luther, Calvin, Smith et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism - (from a Hindu website)- "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centred and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’"
The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life.

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/BUDDHISM/SIDD.HTM

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be very aware of the hallucinations/embellishments and myths surrounding the founders of said rules of life.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus for an analysis of Jesus' life to include his illiteracy.

Peace... And cheers. :)

You make a good point Paganplace (smile)
point well taken!!
peace...cheers

*as I cross posts.*

Forgot to return your blessing of 'Peace,' Gandalf... Way for me to be in a talkative mood when it's stormy out and my connection may go down. :)

There's interesting perspectives on this: frankly, this Pagan's point of view finds it a bit arrogant for people to be claiming they know the 'One And Only God' ...and that that god can be not only defined by human words, but apparently is so small a standing human might not be relatively-small enough.

(That's aside from what these postures *mean to we primates,* of course.)

Certainly it always comes off as a little arrogant when a lot of Christians and Muslims say, 'Oh, well, you're just worshiping *our* idea of God in a different way, sooner or later, you'll stop being so stupid.'

Yeah, ..insulting. But good enough to be getting on with, I think. We're a little pressed for time on the mundane things.

And, hi, again, Gandalf. There's some stuff I wrote for you further back up there. :)

Paganplace:
Thanks for the information on paganism...

Also, though, Tim, I think one of the sources of this pernicious violence and conflict is in fact that these respective monotheist traditions believe that everyone in the world *has to be* worshiping the same God, in those limited sorts of terms.

Yeah, you can say it's all the same in the end... thinking you have copyright on the idea, that yours is the 'right' idea, seems to lead to people thinking there's something essentially *different* between people covering themselves in shame and kneeling in rows in a church and covering themselves in shame and prostrating themselves in rows in a mosque, or wherever... never mind, say, dancing (maybe in the nude) around a rock.

Is that about Ultimate Divinity? Or words and customs and ideas we *make?*

To CCNL:
Why do you insist on changing the scriptures? Yes, your point # 1 is true, "all Gods" are the same essentially. But then, it does not have to be "added" to the original scripture as you suggest. And I agree there are aspects to Islam that definitely are objectionable to today's society, and most muslims in the world do not necessarily agree to it. But your so-called cleansing of the scriptures is nothing short of arrogance. Do you really think you are smart enough or are that well-studied in religion that you know what changes should be made and what needs to remain the same?

To Tim:
I cannot speak for muslims, but here's what I think. There is a basic flaw in the sentence: "God of Quran or God of Bible". I strongly believe that it is one and the same God, the One. Religion is but a means, the ultimate goal is God. Different religions are like different roads leading to the common point. You may fight about how the road I am taking is better or is the only one leading to my destination but if you persist, all roads will lead to the same point. Regarding the comment that Bible was corrupted and hence the need of a new scripture (in the form of Quran) is something which I don't agree with at all. And of course, I understand that is what leads to a lot of divisiveness and hence violence and hatred.

Would Mazhar Khan or any other muslim enlighten us on what muslims mean when they say Islam was a religion long before Muhammed?

Tim,

From your jumbled up mess you wrote it seems to me that the christians and the Jews have different gods. Since the Jews say they worship one God indivisible but the Christians say their god is made up of three persons. And the Christians say that their mystery religion is a branch that's grafted to the Judaism tree. I don't see how that is possible when they worship different gods. Either your understanding of God is wrong, that is Christianity is wrong, or Judaism is Wrong. Both of them can not be right at the same time. Therefore, Christianity can not be right and Judaism is wrong if Judaism is the tree; But it is possible for both of them to be wrong. Logically speaking...

Concerned, I suggest you start with your own house, first. :)

Conceptually, I don't see much difference between Christian and Muslim death squads, (the term actually comes from the very Christianist Contras, if I recall,) ...or the lynch mobs who only seem to be reined in by *civil* laws, spouting all the time how they believe 'God' would be on their side if they went queer-bashing or 'witch-burning.'

Don't think I don't remember being blamed by Christians for 9/11, especially after how I spent that day.

Hi Mazhar Khan. I thank you for your polite response to my posting. You have brought up a very key issue. Muslim's worship one God and so do Christians. Although we Christians believe our God manifest himself as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This concept in Islam is consider the worse type of evil. So we worship one God but it is not the same God. Allah is the God of the Koran. We worship the God of the Bible. Islam has a tricky way around this because it says that the Bible has been corrupted and then they incorporate Islam's story into the corrected Bible. Islam also says that they believe in Jesus but BTW he was just another prophet. All this is not true but it matters not to this discussion, Mazhar Khan. Because even if our Bible were corrupted we still worship a then, I guess you would say, corrupted God that is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit all in one. Allah and Jehovah God are different as night and day. The only characteristic they share is that they are one god instead of some pagan system of many gods. Mohamed just borrowed the one God concept when he fashioned Allah. There are many characteristic of these gods that differ and the character attributes of something are what define it, even God. This idea that we worship the same God is the primary deception of Islam. Again, thank you for giving me the opportunity to explain and may God bless you.

Mazar,

How about Mother Nature or Zeus? Changes to the koran as suggested below:

Part 1 of the "change"/"cleansing".

"The 77 Branches of Faith is a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true faith (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

"30 qualities are connected to the heart"
(five at a time)

"1. Belief in Allah"

No problem but "aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

No problem but evolution and the Big Bang cannot be ignored and the "akas" for Allah should be included.

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item to delete. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in Heaven just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.

Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days "fasting" in a cave before his first contact/hallucination with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

And I just love being in a country where I can list these important items for world peace without the fear of Islamic death squads.

Hi, Mazhar. :)

I think there's a key problem involved in mixing up 'God' with certain names and desires and prophecies and 'laws,' ... Portrayals, in other words, ...the same problem which can lead to iconoclasm when people start saying, 'This is the Only Ultimate God And It So Happens He Wants What We Say This Book Says.'

It becomes hard to reconcile that, ...or to see others as seeing 'God' as other than their respective rulebooks.

A 'God' that 'wants' in those human ways is innately-limited. Hence the conflict, cause it's essentially saying, 'Our God is The God, and 'yours', for all practical purposes, *isn't.*

And then all the mundania and sacred books turn into weapons of division.

I'd say, we're not small creatures defined by the small world of one book or another: we're powerful creatures in an *absolutely-unimaginably-big multiverse.*

These words of 'There's only one God and Paul or Muhammad Say What He Says,'

...well, you're *surprised* that conflict comes five minutes later?

to Tim: I understand, if as non-muslim, you have problem with part that says "Muhammed (pbuh) is his only prophet", but what problem do you have in the part: "there is no God but Allah". Allah is just a name…you can call God by any name you like. It is just an Arabic word to represent God.

"Islam is free thinking? That is really funny. We have a bunch of guys in the Middle East who look and act as if they live in the middle ages and that is free thinking?"

I suggest a thought experiment, Tim.

Take a mental trip back to the Christian Middle Ages, (might take a little actual research,) and imagine how *you, yourself* would be greeted.

Try to really be there. (Gods know, but maybe you were.)

What would be the productive thing to do with your modern ideas?

Not so simple, is it?

Hey, Gandalf. No problem at all. Fair questions. :)

"Paganplace:

"I see your point where you say childhood innocence is not cheap and I agree with you that it is a gift. However, what Osho is trying to say, and this is entirely my understanding, is that it is "cheap" because you get it for free, if you will. You don't "work" for it, whereas as an adult, when you work for it and try to get it back, you actually realize the value and what is is worth."

I think the idea you *must* work for something you couldn't likely 'earn' in the first place is probably one of the more pernicious ideas that mess people up in the first place. More important is to *use* that gift. Implicit is the idea that 'growing up' must *take this away* ...and that separates us, even if it eventually leads us back.

I suppose that's OK, in a sense, too, but the rejection of that gift *doesn't have to happen in the first place,* especially if it makes a big mess of a lot of things.

Just, umm... What's this "Worth" of which you speak? :)

"A dumb question, but what is your belief as regards salvation? Do pagans believe in heaven and/or hell? Pardon my ignorance.

Peace...cheers!"

Complicated question: to be honest, the beliefs in afterlives, (or more commonly 'between-lives') vary widely, as one might expect of such a hard-to-verify and innately-vision-oriented subject.

Salvation? From what?

Otherwise, well, it's pretty much impossible to speak for all Pagans on this, ...we have no central dogmas on this as such.

Common is the belief in transmigration of souls to many forms and places, not necessarily involving the survival of what we call our personality while alive. Something, though. Soul.

A common depiction is the 'Summerlands,' not unlike the concept you may have read about as the Hellenic 'Elysian Fields,' the Irish Tir Na Nog, the Briton 'Avalon,' probably the Nordic Vanaheim, the (supposedly?) Native American 'Happy Hunting Grounds,' etc, etc, etc, which is generally seen as a timeless place of rest and renewal between incarnations, ...not really bound by some external judgement, or contrasted against some punishment: (frankly, without the cares of the world, and attendant rationalizations, what's even the worst sort of character supposed to think of what they've done? ..Can they experience that? What if they did? )

'Salvation...' Well. A pretty foreign idea as you'd think of it.

I'd say there's something like it, in context of Pagan worldviews. Unconnected to any sense of eternities and judgements, perhaps. This gets into certain Mysteries I wouldn't want to spoil by talking about them.

'Saved from *what* ' being the operative question.

It's not about death or punishment or orthodoxy or orthopraxis, to be sure.

Pam, here is a tradition you should question: There is no God but Allah and Mohamed is his prophet. This is totally false and you know it in your heart. The only reason you believe it is because you have to say it 5 times a day. This is called auto hypnosis and it works for robotic type folks who lack the ability to think freely. You say the following: "This call to free-thinking was another of the fundamental aspects of Islam that appealed to me greatly." Islam is free thinking? That is really funny. We have a bunch of guys in the Middle East who look and act as if they live in the middle ages and that is free thinking? We have religious edicts to kill Rushdie for a book and you call Islam free thinking?? If you really mean this "free thinking" stuff, then take off you traditional dress and join with us in declaring that everything about your religion falls apart without the stricture of tradition, confined small box thinking, and the propensity to blow one's self for tradition. Death threats against cartoonists in Denmark and you call Islam free thinking? Theocracy went out of style in the west over 100 years ago yet that is what Islam wants and you call Islam free thinking? Pam, you live in a complete world of your own. Earth to Mecca! The last thing Islam represents is free thinking. What bunk.

Paganplace:

I see your point where you say childhood innocence is not cheap and I agree with you that it is a gift. However, what Osho is trying to say, and this is entirely my understanding, is that it is "cheap" because you get it for free, if you will. You don't "work" for it, whereas as an adult, when you work for it and try to get it back, you actually realize the value and what is is worth.

A dumb question, but what is your belief as regards salvation? Do pagans believe in heaven and/or hell? Pardon my ignorance.

Peace...cheers!

GTW

I question whether one *has* to 'lose that simplicity,' then *get it back.* Certainly, it's the experience of many first-generation Neopagans. But I find that the *kids* who never had some of it taken away, simply *grow,* and it's a wonderful thing to see.

The innnocence of childhood, I think, is *not* 'cheap.' It's a great gift from existence. We'd even say, often, from the Great Mother. You can't put a 'price' on it, which seems to be the ongoing problem for certain other forms of religion: trying to *earn* what's a gift freely given. :)

(I smile cause I did a lot of that, myself, as I grew. :) )

It's not 'cheap,' ...it's *priceless.*

That kind of complicated stuff Frank was spamming us with as though it were somehow embarrassing, well, that's part of the *learning* process.

The 'tools' and stuff tend to fall away, with experience, ...when they cease to be things that 'take one further,' actually.

We're tool-using and song-making creatures, and that's something that one must come to accept, not by trying to deny it, or say it's 'bad,' but by growing through it. Pagans don't see this as particularly a bad thing, any more than it'd make sense to try and deny or scorn having a 'buttcrack.'

That'd be a great way to end up with the biggest case of spiritual constipation ever, and I imagine it'd make walking rather difficult, too. :)

One thing the Abrahamic religions seem to share is a story where, for some reason, innocence was 'taken away' (Ironically by 'knowing about good and evil, a concept they tend to fixate upon as the solution, rather than the *problem.* )

With that black-and white thinking comes conflict, desolation, separation from nature, and, apparently, a big problem with butt cracks.

:)

No need for all that, really. :)

Hey Paganplace:
I have recently been reading the work of Osho, an Eastern philosopher and mystic. Of course, he was quite controversial and was well know for a lot of other things, which is besides the point and I won't go into it. But I came across something you might find interesting. Let me know what you think. Peace...

When the child is born, he is a pagan. Each child is a born pagan, he is happy the way he is. He has no idea what is right and what is wrong; he has no ideals. He has no criteria, he has no judgment. Hungry, he asks for food. Sleepy, he falls asleep. That's what Zen masters say is the utmost in religiousness - when hungry eat, when feeling sleepy go to sleep. Let life flow; don't interfere.
Each child is born as a pagan, but sooner or later he will lose that simplicity. That is part of life; it has to happen. It is a part of our growth, maturity, destiny. The child has to lose it and find it again. When the child loses it he becomes ordinary, worldly. when he regains it he becomes religious.
The innocence of childhood is cheap; it is a gift from existence. We have not earned it and we will have to lose it. Only by losing it will we become aware of what we have lost. Then we will start searching for it. And only when we search for it and earn it, achieve it, become it - then we will know the tremendous preciousness of it.

Oh, and, Frank:

"oh mother - or is it sister or lady or who ever -"

Yes, it is. :)

Um, Frank, what part of the word
*polytheist* do you not understand? :)

Actually, interestingly enough, I'm told by a rabbi that many modern Pagans would qualify as 'monotheist' under the Noahide laws, because of a common belief that all Gods are still part of a great unity to the multiverse. Lucky me if I ever end up in ancient Jerusalem. :)

Well, here, we go. Finally some content. :)

Thanks, HL. There's quite a lot there.

I think it's problematic to try and attribute to, say, polytheism, the conflict inherent to a guy like Muhammad *trying to take over, himself,* in whatever manner he saw fit.

Certainly, there's some hope in people *having some understanding of the situations involved.

It's actually *not uncommon in tribal warfare throughout the world* for it to be the custom to accept surrenders of various kinds honorably. Warfare is different in tribal societies, to begin with, the point not being to *destroy* (or convert) the enemy, but to establish dominance of a sort, ...a complicated subject to touch upon.

I certainly see the same sorts of attempts to decribe polytheists as 'lesser people,' as Frank illustrates here in his attempts to identify us with a part of his body he finds 'unclean.' (May want to clean that, Frank? :) )

I think these ideas can lead to wars, in the first place, anyway, but doubtless the politics and the like had much more to do with the mundane than the sacred. And, of course, you must remember who writes history. There are likely other sides in a situation where, apparently, Muhammad was *gathering a lot of power, apparently upsetting the tribal order for a form of nationalism.*

Certainly, the idea that there is plenty of room there for honorable behavior is a bit comforting, though Frank's right that in practice it often just hasn't worked out that way. Certainly, so many of those passages are qualified with the 'Don't kill them so they may become Muslim' for comfort, that I wonder how it fits with the whole 'put them to the sword' thing.

Certainly, the Bible has in it words of both mercy and war, and being more familiar with that, know that you can make a 'holy text' such as that say anything that's convenient at the time and displace the responsibility onto a God and or the victims.

But, it's hopeful. And here, Frank, is some of the stuff where your Muslims of more peaceful heart and discerning minds can be appealed to, and aided in terms of bringing some social justice and peace to the world.

“it has been written by islamic scholars:…” The reader might get the wrong idea that this Islamic scholar, Paret, was a Muslim scholar.

Rudi Paret was a German orientalist and his views are his own and do not necessarily convey the true meaning of 2:256.

The meaning is very clear to the reader; it is stated as follows:

“Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God has grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And God hears and knows all things.” 2:256

On another note, if anyone would like to read chapter 9 in full, or others, you can check out the following link: http://www.oneummah.net/quran/quran.html

Chronologically, verses 1-29 of chapter 9 were a notable declaration of state policy promulgated about the month of January, 631, and read out by 'Ali at the Pilgrimage two months later in order to give the policy the widest publicity possible.

The word polytheist appears quite often in the Quran. The name describes the people of Mecca who believed in God but they also sought the intersession of other lesser gods for different purposes. They also sought the eradication of the small Muslim community by means of wars and even the assassination of the Prophet himself. So, in brief, those people were referred to as Polytheists.

The polytheist and enemies of Islam frequently made treaties of mutual alliances with the Muslims. The Muslims scrupulously observed their part, but the polytheist of Mecca violated their part again and again when it suited them. After some years’ experience it became imperative to denounce such treaties altogether. This was done in due form, with four months’ notice, and a chance was given to those who faithfully observed their pledges, to continue their alliance.

The opening of the Chapter may be translated as:

“A declaration of the dissolution of agreements from God and His messenger to the Polytheists with whom you have made peace agreements. Thus, you [O Polytheists] may freely traverse in the land for four months, but know that you shall not escape God's judgment and that God shall surely humble the unbelievers. A proclamation [should be made] to these people from God and His messenger on the day of Great Pilgrimage, [declaring] that God and His messenger are no longer under any obligation toward these Polytheists. If you repent, [O Polytheists,] it shall be better for you but if you turn your backs [paying no heed], then know that you shall not be able to escape God's judgment. Give these rejecters the glad tidings of a painful punishment, except those Polytheists who have not dishonored their treaties with you and have not aided anyone against you. With these, fulfill your treaties till the appointed term. Indeed, God loves the righteous. When the sacred months are over, slay the polytheists wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them and lie in ambush for them.” (9:1–5)

… then fight and slay them… It is only when the four months of grace are past, and the other party shows no sign of desisting from its treacherous designs by right conduct, that the sate of war is to follow immediately between them and the Muslims.

When war becomes inevitable, it must be prosecuted with vigor and not with kid gloves. The fighting may take the form of killing, or capture, or siege, or ambush and other stratagems. But even then there is room for repentance and amendment on the part of the guilty party, and if that takes place, the duty of the Muslims is forgiveness and the establishment of peace.

If one amongst the Polytheist ask you for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of God; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge (9:6)

Even among the enemies of Islam, actively fighting against Islam, there may be individuals who may be in a position to require protection. Full asylum is to be given to them, and opportunities provided for hearing the word of God. If they don not see their way to accept Islam, they will require double protection: one- from the Islamic forces openly fighting against their people, and two-from their own people, as they detached themselves from them. Both kinds of protection should be ensured for them, and they should be safely escorted to a place where they can be safe. Such persons only err through ignorance, and there may be much good in them.

The Quran not only says that a Polytheist seeking asylum during the battle should be granted refuge, but also that he should be escorted to a secure place. In the present international scenario, even a kind, peace-loving army General, during a battle, may let the enemy soldiers go free, if they want peace. But which army General will ever tell his soldiers that if the enemy soldiers want peace during a battle, don’t just let them go free, but also escort them to a place of security?

The Quran further says:

“How can there be any responsibility of these agreements on God and His messenger, except those with whom you made agreements at the Sacred Mosque? Thus, so long as they uphold their part of the treaty, you should uphold yours. Indeed God loves the righteous.” (9:7)

Thus if the polytheists are true to their oaths and honor their agreements so should the Muslims.

“How can there be any responsibility of these agreements seeing that if they get an advantage over you, they respect not the ties either of kinship or of covenant? With fair words from their mouths they entice you; and most of them are rebellious and wicked.” (9:8)

Among the Arabs, the ties of kinship were so strong as to be almost unbreakable. The Polytheist Arabs went out of their way to break them in the case of the Muslims, who were kith and kin to them. Besides the bond of kinship there was the further bond of their plighted oath in the treaty. They broke that oath because the other parties were Muslims. After that kind of behavior how can a treaty be possible with them?

A close look at the above verses shall suffice as evidence to the fact that the directive, “Arrest them, besiege them and lie in ambush for them” is given against those polytheists with whom the Muslims, under the leadership of the Prophet, had entered into a peace agreement (and who had disregarded this agreement and aided others against the Muslims. Obviously, these qualities cannot be generalized on all the polytheists of the world.

The Quran further says:

“Will you not fight against those who have broken their oaths and have conspired to banish the messenger? They were the first to attack you.”(9:12)

Thus, a further qualification of those against whom the directive is given is that besides breaking their oaths with the Muslims, they conspired to banish the Prophet and were the first to attack the Muslims. It is obvious that the referred directive implies to take action against a particular people. It cannot be generalized to the whole world and to all times to come. The Quran further clarifies that the directive is mainly against those particular polytheists who were the custodians of the Sacred Mosque. The Quran says:

“It is not becoming for these polytheists to manage the mosques of God – being themselves witnesses on their own rejection. The works of such bear no fruit: in fire shall they dwell.” The places of worship of God shall be visited and maintained by who believe in God and the last day, establish regular prayers, and practice regular charity, and fear none except God. It is they who are expected to be on true guidance. (9: 17-18)

Keeping this point in perspective, if we consider 9: 14–16, we see that these verses direct the companions of the Prophet to fight the unbelievers and inform them of the reasons for this directive. Let us take a close look at these verses:

“Fight them. God shall punish them [for their rejection] through your hands. He shall humble them, grant you victory over them and shall thereby heal the spirit of the believers and remove all rancor from their hearts… [This fighting against your own kith and kin shall be a test for the truthfulness of your belief in God.] Did you think that you would be left alone [and not tested for the truthfulness of your faith], while God has not yet determined those among you who fight [in His way] and take none as close associates except God, His messenger and the believers? [Remember that] God is aware of all your actions.” (9:14-16)

Seen in this perspective, it should be obvious that the directives entailed in these verses are specific to the direct addressees of the Quran. They can, by no means, be generalized for all human beings and for all times to come.

Some critics cite verse 9: 28 – ‘pagans are unclean’. Muhammad Asad translated verse 9: 28 thus:

“O you who have attained faith! those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God are nothing but impure: and so they shall not approach the Inviolable House of Worship…”

Explaining the verse Muhammad Asad commented: "The term najas ("impure") occurs in the Quran only in this one instance, and carries an exclusively spiritual meaning. To this day, the Bedouin of Central and Eastern Arabia – who, contrary to the modern town-dwellers, have preserved the purity of the Arabic idiom to a high degree – describe a person who is immoral, faithless or wicked as najas.

Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali and Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan in their joint commentary of the Quran explained this verse 9: 28: "The word Najasun is used only for those persons who have spiritual impurity.

Moulana Abul Kalam Azad explaining verse 9:28 commented: "In this verse the reference to the uncleanliness of the polytheists is not to their physical condition but to the uncleanliness of their hearts. Islam does not regard the person or the body of anyone as unclean. Every man as man stands on the same footing as every other human being. It is why it has prohibited untouchability and does not single out any section of humanity as untouchable. In fact, it is clear from the recorded history of the Prophet that the Prophet maintained social relationships with not only the People of the Book, the Jews, but with the polytheists of his time. He used to dine with them and accept their invitations and also offer invitations to them. History has even recorded he at times had allowed them to stay in his own mosque at Madina.”

Some scholars explaining verse 9:28 commented that the polytheists were unclean for they went naked around Kabah and indulge in evil practices and devil works like gambling, offering sacrifice to stones, divination by arrows and consuming intoxicants. Elsewhere in the Quran it is stated:

Remember how they [the Polytheists of Mecca] said: "O God if this is indeed the Truth from you, rain down on us a shower of stones form the sky, or send us a grievous penalty." But God was not going to send them a penalty while you are amongst them; nor was He going to send it while they ask for forgiveness. But what plea have they that God should not punish them, when they keep out men from the sacred Mosque - and they are not its guardians? No men can be its guardians except the righteous; but most of them do not understand. Their prayer at the House of Allah is nothing but whistling and clapping of hands: (Its only answer can be), "Taste ye the penalty because ye blasphemed." (8:32-35)

Yeah, Frank, actually. You aren't participating in the discussion: it's just spamming if you post the same lengthy stuff to nearly every thread and it doesn't even relate to the topic.

Bad enough you have to attack 'Islam' every time a Muslim speaks, (this isn't the 'truth,' Frank, it's at best just some information,) never mind try and attack the religions of any other Non-Christians who speak up: (Hint: Pagans aren't the ones with the issues about anatomy and bodily functions,)

...but you say the same crap whatever the thread or topic.

This is an interfaith forum, not a sounding board for your bigotries and small-mindedness, as instructive as it may have been for a while *about* your bigotries and small-mindedness.

The point's about improving understanding of each other, not you cut and pasting things over and over to justify your abusive behavior, and your inability or unwillingness *to* understand any better.

Certainly, your technique and behavior as regards myself and other Pagans shows that your 'truth'-gathering skills leave much to be desired.

Thanks for the link -interesting to read what Muslims think of these atrocities.

Hamas, Fatah clash in deepening violence:

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5091

Huge massacre in Gaza

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3537

Here is a Christian lady who found the truth and wanted to share it with others...
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22

Oh, and Concerned, ...so sorry to divert from the usual off-topic anti-Muslim spamming. And for the record, I don't use aliases here.

Apparently, we can see your style drunk and sober. :)

You actually said you were going to call yourself that, you realize? Right in this thread?

Unless you're sharing your name with another troll, (who also seems to have trouble remembering to fill in a name as well,) in which case you're actually not that 'unique of style.' :)

Frank says:

"the woman is not mainstream - hell she is not even in the off stream"

She's not alone-

Here's the Episcopal priest who claims to be Christian and Muslim.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003751274_redding17m.html

And here is:

Amina Wadud - the first Muslim woman in the world to lead mixed-gender prayer in public.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzkNgMTKkP8

And the "blog hog" awards for yesterday go to Frank, Paganplace, Gaby and their aliases.

Hey Paganplace,

I see Frank is his usual AHOLE (OOPS BUTTCRACK) SELF.

I think I have decided to ignore him. I just can't stomach the little troll any more.

In Montana, it's Bud time, never Miller, UGH!

Have a good weekend, my friend~

Frank, go watch some more of your tube, at least then you'll leave us alone!!!!

Oh, and have a beer. (I suggest just one, seems you may have already had too much of a good thing)

It's 'Miller' time.

(lil Pagan joke, there. See John Barleycorn.)

Let's put it this way, Frank. Someone wrote that stuff, wherever you got it. It's not an authority, so using it as a straw-man or whatever the Hel you think you're doing does not justify your hatred, willful ignorance, and abuse. Certainly not. Especially cause you're the one who set out to find 'enemies' in the first place.

Looks like you turned it into a little ritual to act out your new name, complete with proclaiming your ignorance in capital letters.

I find it amusing that a 'little fairy' ritual was so effective.

Careful what you name yourself. You just might find it becomes you. :)

Frank, has it ever occured to you that this stuff people try to sell is *just that?*

Stuff people try to sell?

What are *you* buying?

So mote it be. :)

Off for the 'real world' :)

You said it, not me.

Not to put too fine a point on it, Frank, but ..no, Islamic authorities shouldn't be allowed, perhaps, to gloss over the ongoing horrors,

You seem to have been motivated to find these things when it comes to pointing the finger at the 'other,' but you, yourself, can only see the same sort of criticism of Christianity as 'hate,' and 'war.'

Somehow you expect 'Islamics' to respond differently to the *same damn thing.*

Frankly, stories told of what Christians do to Pagans here in America, you dismiss with a bunch of insults toward the Pagans.

That's how the stuff I *won't* tell you about *happens,* as well as the stuff we *did* tell you about happens.

The idea, "This stuff didn't happen cause Christians aren't that kind of people."

Being all wound up in a paradigm of 'This is my only lifetime, after or about which I will be judged by some absolute external authority, so my authority must be pure and absolute and 'right,' you are totally blind to the fact that just maybe Pagans in general take a longer view, both cause we value motherhood as very sacred, and because we expect to be *back* sooner or later to deal with the effects of what we've done.

From personal experience, I don't think 'believing' in, or even 'dying for' a 'side' exempts us from this.

No good ends come from bad means.

Arguing, 'All these people must not be Islamic!' only leads to very bad means. And all the resultant grief and further aggression it brings.

Right now we have wondrous abilities as humans to *make things better.*

Drop the fear and use it.

I know it hurts. This is the inheritance of ourselves and our fellows thinking 'Righteousness' was a ticket *out* of the effects of what we do.

It's not.

And even if it were, it's damn inconsiderate to act like it.

No, Frank.

Seems you're busy trying to tell a new one, yourself.

I don't *care* if Islam is a 'religion of peace.' I agree that there's a lot of stuff in those books and past histories that are hardly peaceful.

You just refuse to apply the same standards to the 'religion of the 'Prince of Peace,'

...hardly peaceful, either, whenever it's been allowed to have that power.

But.

Religion isn't where *peace comes from.*

It comes from *us.*

With a little effort and understanding. And courage.

What would you want me to save you *from,* Frank, apart from obviously not knowing what a 'warlock' is? (The word warlock is considered, for the most part, in the Pagan community, to refer to an outcast 'sorceror,' who can't behave, and is thus, 'ward-locked' from the community. People of a more Nordic bent will differ on the real meaning of it, but this word mostly refers to figures of fairy tale and it's not commonly used by Pagans to refer to themselves, even those who like to call themselves 'Witches.' )

So, what.

You want signs and wonders in order to follow something *else* with blindness that leads to hatred?

Not out of me, you don't, cousin. Even if I could do the sorts of things you seem to demand I *should* be able to.

Funny thing about actual signs and wonders, ...the need to *advertise* goes away.

You're *squalling about *control.*

You can't *have* it.

There's still good you could do, if you could only see it.

And, before you hasten to take *that* backwards, it's a satirical view of *how self-centered* paranoia can be, among other things.

Like how crazy it is to self-generate ideas of 'enemies.' And maybe why the idea can be so hard to let go of for some.

And, Frank, here's a song I keep thinking of when you post:

It's from the Waterboys, (Probably the most Pagan band folks will have heard of, really.)

Be My Enemy

"Well the dawn is howling
And the mainframe shakes
Feel like i've been sleeping in a
Cellar full of snakes
My wings have been clipped
My shoes have been stuck with glue
Well if you'll be my enemy
I'll be your enemy too

Now i've got goons on my landing
Thieves on my trail
Nazis on my telephone
Willing me to fail
They were all sent by someone
Obviously you!
Well if you'll be my enemy
I'll be your enemy too

I've a bucketful of Babylon
I got a handful of lead
I'm gonna put them in a gun man
Point it at your head
Because you stole all my friends
And you gave me the buffalo blues
Well if you'll be my enemy
I'll be my enemy too

Now from the slime on your tongue
To the nails on your toes
From the scales on your skin
To the stains on your clothes
You're gonna make me have to do something
That i do not want to do
But if you'll be my enemy
I'll be your enemy too

My hands are tied
I'm nailed to the floor
Feel like i'm knocking on the
Unknown door
There's a gun at my back
A blade at my throat
I keep finding hate mail
In the pockets of my coat
Well i've been trying to grow
I been cooling my heels
I've have been working the treadmill
I've been working in the fields
And i can't get to sleep
I can't catch my breath
I can't stop talking and i
Look like death!
But i will put right this disgrace
I will rearrange you
If you'll be my enemy
I'll be your enemy too
If you'll be my enemy
I'll be your enemy too
Be my enemy!"

Dig?

Way to disregard any information that conflicts with your absolutist assertions, Frank.

Well according to many Christians, Frank, you are not a Christian. We all do you the courtesy of accepting you as you describe yourself, stop trying to turn all the Muslims on this site into puppets and straw men for your particular point of view.
The Boston Globe -- hardly a pro-Muslim publication -- has a good editorial today on the differences (mostly political) between most Muslims and the hard-line terrorist types. Go to
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/editorials/articles/2007/06/16/nihilists_without_borders/

Frank asks to be told "the difference between a moderate islamic and your run of the mill islamic."

Frank. Just look at Gaza... extremist vs. moderate? No matter. They kill each other.

As Pamela knows -this video is not a fake.

Muslim women in revolt
360 Vision reports from the front line of a "feminist revolution" in Islam

http://www.visiontv.ca/Media/Releases/360%20VISION_07Feb24.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ESiEHrhpSg

Best wishes, Pamela. You need them.

Gary D and Gandalf (and Frank)
Many Calvinists are raised with a misunderstanding about what predestination means to individuals. Yes, it is certainly true (according to this theology) that the names are already written. That does not mean that Reformed Christians should cease their striving to be as Christlike as possible. For as to who is on which list: G-d knows, man does not.
With predestination, it is even more important to behave always as if you are already on the "good" list. It leads down a slippery slope if you merely give up and say you have no control over your final destination. You are like the dieter who goes completely off his diet because he has eaten one ice cream cone. Or like the Catholic who thinks it is all right to repeat the same sin over and over as long as she goes to confession.
In the words of the old children's song (which I learned in the Congregational Church):
"One was a soldier and one was a queen
And one was a shepherdess on the green.
They were all of them saints of God and I mean,
God helping, to be one too."
Predestination is a departure from Catholic theology, but they have in common that conviction that anyone can be a saint.

Topic,tenets and traditions.

Australia,population 21 million,GDP(nominal) 822 billion dollars.
Indonesia,population 230 million(more then ten fold),GDP(nominal) 400 billion dollars(less then half)
Who knows the exact and real reason? Please,please,Open you eyes you shall see.

Egypt,5000 years ago there was Civilization.Today,2007 AD,what is the situation?
Why,why,why present egyptian is more backward then ancient egyptian?
Please,open your eyes you shall understand.

Empty word demagoism can not solve anything.

They went to the Moon within 200 years.
But,you couldnt go to the stadium yet.
You couldnt remove the chain(headscarf).
You couldnt drink a glass of wine,a bottle of beer or two sips of whisky.
Is this tolerance???
Because Cult of bedouin is compulsive.
Hijab(mark of enslavement and subjugation) is a compulsion.
150 times worship in arabic language in a month is compulsion and brainwashing.
Prohibition of alcohol is a compulsion.
Lina Joy is enforced to leave Malasia.This is compulsion.

''As you correctly stated,most of the Shariah(desert rules) in many Muslim countries are very,very outdated''
This is third class demagogism.This is the empy word demagogism.
Dont they(millions and millions 'real' muslims) know what Real Islam is? Yes,they dont know what islam is,but a Convert from Indianapolis knows everything very well.
Is this your Logic?No,indonesian Julia,this is 'funny comment'

You shall leave The Cult.This is the Solution.
You shall dry the marsh.This is the remedy.

gandalf- i meant no disrespect to other belief systems- these are just my personal observations.

if youre aware of other scripture that calls for such personal investigation, it will only edify us all if you share.

questioning our religion is exhorted in our holy book- in my readings, i truly have not found this example elsewhere.

since it is, pertinent to the question, and in my opinion one of the more soul searching and enlightening aspects of my faith, the comparison wasnt intended to denigrate others, just elucidate what i find right about my own religion.

it certainly doesnt exclude others sharing what they find right about their own faiths.

up with islam folks.

Jihadist,

We have looked at Christianity and found it wanting. The result is 200 years of NT scholarship done to eliminate the fiction and embellishments e.g. see the books of the three On Faith panelists, Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen.

The OT has been relegated to the myth pile with a lot less effort due to archeological and text attestations.

Where are the analoguous works that remove the fiction and embellishments of the Koran?

And again you fail to support global religious freedom reinforcing once again that you want an Islamic world with only one guiding book, your book of death aka the Koran. (Or do you simply fear the Malaysian courts????).

Previously, I have given you suggestions on how to rectify the Koran but you somehow never have the time. See below once again a short synopsis of the founders of two major contemporary religions as added information for your new endeavor for global religious freedom.

Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth. Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of his sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian sects.

Mohammed, an illiterate, possibly hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the Koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

And Frank, aren't you the one who maligned me before using Wikipedia as a reference?

Now you are freaking me out. Wiki has more valuable and exact info than youtube ever will. Any rogue can upload their biased information there and YOU take that as a medium to defend your hatred of ISLAM?

Tsk, Tsk, Tsk!

Jihadist,

Assalam mualaikum

Always a pleasure to see you here. I totally agree with Wiccan!

I hear the sensibility in you voice, and feel the sincerity of your heart.

All my best to you, my friend!

Salaam!

Frank,

I finally looked at some of yur youtube stuff. And frankly, I have to say that the majority of them are fake and totally utterly ridiculous.

If you want to win an argument with that kind of crap, don't waste your time.

We ain't arguing dude...I am just trying to clarify a few points. Of course, this is quite speculative, but discussion is what may help us learn something...

Hi Garyd,

Thanks for your comments...just one point. You say:

"If you are God's child and your name was written in the book of life whether you are going to heaven or to hell has already been determined"

I don't think that is true and correct me if I am wrong. Isn't whether one go to heaven or hell decided by the deeds one does, right to the point of death?

GTW

"Much work need to be done for our respective communities of believers on matters of faith for the collective well-being of all - whatever their beliefs or non-beliefs are."

So Mote It Be, my friend. Namaste.

Imam Pamela Taylor

Assalam mualaikum and good morning
(my time zone)

Excellent essay by you to read before breakfast. The phrase - doubt is one element of faith, seems contradictory.

As you noted, Prophet Muhammad PBUH, was not so much sceptical or doubting, but much more pure disbelief when the first revelations came.

As you correctly stated, most of the Shariah in many Muslim countries are very, very outdated.

It seems that the only people apart from the very, very conservative ulemas holding on to classical commentary and interpretation of the Qur'an and Hadith are some of the posters here.

No offence Frank Collins, GaryD, Concerned et al. but look within your own organized religions and co-religionists' concerns and questions and understand them, before addressing others'.

Much work need to be done for our respective communities of believers on matters of faith for the collective well-being of all - whatever their beliefs or non-beliefs are.

Salam

The Angel Reality speaking to A Hermit said:

"It is not individual Muslims that many of us have problems with unless they are professed terrorists. The problem is with their operating manual. Eliminate the milataristic and anti-female passages and insert passages supporting global freedom of religion in the Koran and most of the problems with Islam would be solved."

Many contemporary NT scholars to include On Faith Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen have "cleaned" up the NT removing the embellishments and fiction.

And the OT has basically been thrown on the myth pile. Fictional accounts, however, still have important moral/life messages e.g. The Red Badge of Courage.

Pamela: As I said before -the comments your coreligionists make against you on the internet are so unkind I am unable to repeat most of them. Please consider what you are doing.

Read the comments. This is really what many Muslims think of you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ESiEHrhpSg&mode=related&search=

Good Question Gandalf. And its kind of a dichotomy in that those who have not the Holy spirit but are like Paul's companion Demas pretenders to the throne of Christwhen they ask they get no answer for they are not of the Body of believers and so they find no proof and leave. For one whose heart is change by the Holy spirit, it is the sign that God wnats you to get on with it in some fashion it is a sign that you have groan too complacent in the relationship and God wants you to up the ante as it were.

Understand sir that from a reformed Christian perspective, If you are God's child and your name was written in the book of life whether you are going to heaven or to hell has already been determined.

For anyone who cares to answer:

Is having a doubt the same as questioning the faith? Is the difference that of degree or is one (questioning faith) more "blasphemous" if you will, compard to the other (having doubt)?

To Frank Collins
I do not disagree about the atrocities committed by muslims all over the world. I am familiar with world history and I know about the Ottoman Empire and their attempts at world domination, I also have read about the Persian Empire and the long wars in Arabia, I know how the descendants of Genghis Khan and the Mughals ruled over the Indian subcontinent and committed what could today be termed as crimes against humanity, and in today's world, the terrorism committed in the Middle East, Far East, Afghanistan, Kashmir, Europe in the name of Islam. But that does not mean ALL MUSLIMS are fundamentalists. There are parts of other religions' scriptures that may be objectionable and many may not agree to it. How many people do you see coming out and condemning openly. Why do you insist all muslims come out and openly condemn those verses. Maybe they don't agree with it but do not deem necessary to tell the world about it. After all, TRUE religion is the most private thing, it is between the person and God. Why do you need to know what aspects they believe and what they don't.

Hey Frank,
Wake up dude...no one is trying to kill you. It is called delusions of persecution. Don't get into hatred and paranoia, not all muslims believe in and/or follow radical "crazies" if you will. Are you so naive as to belive that radical fundamentalists only belong to Islam and other religions are immune from such nuts? Dream away dude if you seriosuly think that way...not happening. There are bad fruits in every basket so to say.
GTW

Only an Eclati-On can Over come & Expose "The Riddles(s) Of The Satan, of which is greater than the Whole of IT's Parts!

Jonah?

One More, White whale?

Frank Collins says: "When dealing with Muslims, what they say is not the issue. The real issue is, what they actually mean in their hearts"

How do you judge that, dude?

Victoria says: "I have encountered no other scripture of any religion that encourages, even dictates we do not blindly follow the ways of our parents- but personally investigate our holy book"

You apparently have not read much other than the Quran. No offense Victoria, but to make such a blanket statment is quite arrogant.

With all due respect ladies and gentlemen your religion of peace has been at war with virtually everyone else, including other adherents virtually from its very beginning Mohamed was a general as well as a Prophet. Of the First 7 spiritual leaders all save Mohammed himself and his immediate succesor were murdered by other Muslims.

It is and remains very much a tribal type religion right down to the insistance that only fellow believers can expect descent treatment.

Further you can understand Islam just by reading the Quran. The Hadith are often as important in matters of doctrine if not more so than the Quaran itself.

Indeed Pamela, we are commanded to read the Qur'an ourselves and determine with our own intelligence if we find it to be the truth.
I have encountered no other scripture of any religion that encourages, even dictates we do not blindly follow the ways of our parents- but personally investigate our holy book.

I do agree that this important aspect of Islam is often and sadly betrayed. But it's human nature to cling to the comfortable and maintain the status quo without question when it serves self interest.

It is that crystallization that has spread western perception (and eastern too) of Islam as an intractable and inflexible religion, when the fact is that we must refresh and re-interpret our religion every conscious nanosecond of our lives.

I have found no other human coda that strives to balance the needs of the individual expression against the need for societal responsibility as expressed in the framework of Islam.

That aspect requires constant and intelligent questioning and keeps our religion current and potent.

peace

Mo used to display signs of epilepsy like foaming from the mouth, collapsing due to dizziness etc when receiving the revelations, the same signs are displayed by people who are said to be possessed by demons. Exorcists these days have to make certain that the person the are attending to does not really suffer from epilepsy before perfoming an exorcism as the symptoms are very similar.