Treading Dangerous Ground

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if the candidates had consistently touted the importance of their personal faiths throughout their political careers- (well, edwards has, but then again he couldnt possibly get elected in south carolina without it) then it would have some meaning. but the fact is that the democrats as a body decided after the last presidential election that one of the changes in their tactics would be a ramping up of their religious affiliations to attract the undecided middle of the road voters. it works so well for the republicans, doesnt it?

i think any person who is supporting a politican because of the claimed religious viewpoint of said politico is too lazy to investigate what their actual views and platforms are.

Uncensored-

Are you really reading my posts? The first law that I live by is "Harm None". This is the Wiccan Rede. If you are a Wiccan and murder someone, you have harmed them, yourself and all creation. I found it risible because NO Wiccan worth his/her salt would choose a course of action that would intentionally harm others.

Your last comment is offensive in the extreme. Where in any of my statements could I have given you the belief that I would find "the all to real death of Moslems at the hands of other Moslems" laughable? I have said before that I do not approve of, condone, or in any support those who would hurt others. I do refuse to blame all Muslims for the acts of a few. Can you, or will you make the same distinction?

Wiccan:

Pamela is silent on this subject. The quote was from ahmed from bahrain.

"Your analogy of Wiccans murdering other Wiccans is risible"

Does the all to real death of Moslems at the hands of other Moslems provoke you to laughter too?

Uncensored-

WHERE did you find Ms. Taylor posting,

"Whats with some readers here bringing crazy news from Afghanistan to taint Muslim image. What is this has got to do with the price of fish?"?

I've been on this forum since 11/06, and that sure doesn't sound like anything I have read on her threads. She has always had an admirable command of the language. And I agree that Frank's and CCNL's comments are usually off-topic, and boring, and hateful.

Your analogy of Wiccans murdering other Wiccans is risible. "Harm none" is the basic Wiccan Rede.

Wiccan:

I have only read Pamela's postings for May and June. I do know she is one of the panelists who has often made comments and answered questions on her own threads. She and most of the Muslims posting are silent or have left comments like:

"Whats with some readers here bringing crazy news from Afghanistan to taint Muslim image. What is this has got to do with the price of fish?"

"I find these off-topic comments to be terribly boring and predictable."

If wiccans began to murder fellow wiccan journalists and you were questioned: Would you be silent or post these comments?

Uncensored-

If you will peruse Ms. Taylor's past posts you will see she HAS condemned those who have used Islam as an excuse for hurting people.

As for the second part, CCLN and Frank have made it clear that those of us who do not agree with them painting ALL muslims as evil, hateful people are either idiotic, unconcious, or insane. Or all three.

Wiccan:

"I just fail to see how Ms. Taylor is personally responsible for their deaths."

Pamela has only been asked for her comments. The "war of words" that journalists everywhere fight everyday has become a "war against words" as Muslim Journalists lose their lives and are silenced. Pamela has the freedom to speak on their behalf -but is silent.

"because I do not condemn all Muslims for the sins of the few, you consider me complicit in their murders."

Please provide a quote -I'm unsure of your reference.

CCNL-

Of course I believe Free Speech is a basic human right. I do not approve of or condone the murders of these brave women. I just fail to see how Ms. Taylor is personally responsible for their deaths. Or why, because I do not condemn all Muslims for the sins of the few, you consider me complicit in their murders. Care to enlighten me?

Or better yet,

Edwards (or anyone) should be even more respected if they said
"the issue of my faith is something I keep very private and don't use as a political selling point in my campaign. I have X and Y beliefs in these values that are a part the best tradition of American public life."

This is essentially the position that Jefferson (remember him?) took.

Thank you Pamela for a thoughtful, moral, sane, and thorough examination of this issue.

You have been unfailingly humane in your columns, and smart.

You rightly point out the need for atheists like myself to have a place at the table and to be respectable members in the public debate.

If John Edwards had said "i am a secular humanist atheist, and my strong moral compass based on compassion and loving kindness towards my fellows helped me through the crisis of my son's death"

he should be esteemed as much as Obama or Clinton were for their versions of "faith."

Is "I have faith in love"
any less reasonable and admirable than saying
"i have faith in God"?

Pamela. Anon, Ahmed, Viejita, Wiccan:

Are you or are you not in favor of Freedom of Speech as a basic human right? Please consider this question for Muslim Women Journalists and for the posters here (yourself included).

Pamela,

Are you or are you not if favor of Freedom of Religion as a basic human right?

Pamela-

A well-reasoned and thoughtful response. I was particularly impressed with this:

"As always, I find myself falling back upon the principle that your rights end at the beginning of my nose. Thus, it is fair for society to impose the moral precept that theft or murder is wrong, whether we derive that precept from a utilitarian, humanist or theological basis. When moral choices do not infringe upon others (such as two consenting adults engaging in a relationship the Qur'an would deem sinful), then the right to impose one's morality has ended."

I have often thought that if people would attend to what their religion says THEY should be doing, rather than worrying what OTHERS are doing, this world would be much more peaceful. And to deride someone's morals because they don't come from the same book you're reading is obscene.

I also want to tell you that I have been afraid that the hateful comments from some would discourage you from posting. I think to these people Islam is a mirror that reflects their own hate back to them. Why on earth they would attack someone who is trying to free Islam from the chains of rigid fundamentalism is beyond me.

Stay strong, Pamela. Keep fighting the good fight, and, if you will allow, I'll keep you in my prayers. Blessed Be.

Jihadist,(second request)

Hmmm, a professed atheist/politician in a Muslim country? How does that work? Got a name we can verify? Maybe an obituary? Jail location?

And what Islamic sect do you belong to? Leader of said sect is who?

By the way I appreciate Ms. Taylor's thoughtful response to a pretty dull question.

I find these off-topic comments to be terribly boring and predictable. It's like trying to have a conversation while someone plays the same newsreel at full volume while the rest of us are trying to hear each other's views. It is lazy and irresponsible for Newsweek and the Post to allow the same cut-and-paste jockeys to continuously hijack the Muslim threads.
And for the jockeys themselves:
We get how you feel about Islam. You're not changing any minds with your rudeness.

Involving faith in a secular society or any society for that matter can be misleading to common folk. Faith is a personal matter. Political nominees shouldpresent their policies to public for the sake of clarity and good governance not hide behind faith or a holy book. One man's holy book could very well be another man's book full of holes.

Even Christ said: "Give the Romans what belongs to Romans, etc.", and "My kingdom is not of this world".

Politics is a dirty game and if it is to be cleansed at all, then those very politicians should not hide behind secrecy, holly books, skull-duggery or any such righteous-than-though scheming policies. Be frank, plain, open, and spell your policies out for the ordinary folk to understand and if selected stick to your promises.

A civilised society is one that treats its weakest members with dignity and equal status. It is an inclusive society and not an exclusive club.

Whats with some readers here bringing crazy news from Afghanistan to taint Muslim image. What is this has got to do with the price of fish? Comment on the question posed in the article. If I want to hear desperate news from Afghanistan or Iraq, I would go to other more balanced websites.

Cheer:-)

"No warning hints or signs of imminent danger??"

A journalist's passion is to report the truth. They won't back down in the face of death.

Gaza Journalists Fear Islamist Threats

"Media employees in Gaza say they fear for their lives after an Islamist group issued a proclamation threatening workers at the Palestinian Broadcasting Corporation (PBC).

Media employees, however, insist they will not capitulate to the demands of the Islamists and are staging demonstrations demanding the authorities take a tougher stand against threats to press freedom.

An Islamist group calling itself the Righteous Swords of Islam (RSI) issued the statement on Friday, in which it warned employees of the PBC to adhere to Islamic tradition and insisted the women wear the hijab, the traditional headscarf.

According to the proclamation, the female employees of the PBC are engaged in a “frantic competition between themselves to display their charms.”

“Beware, we are closer to you than you imagine. We will cut throats from vein to vein if we have to, in order to preserve this nation’s spirit and morality,” the statement said.

“Frankly, I and most of my female employees are afraid,” says Lana Shahin, a Gaza-based female news reporter with the PBC and deputy head of the English programs department.

However, she adds, journalists have to live up to their responsibilities and challenge the situation.

“If we buckle down this time, next time they will not allow us to leave out homes. We have to defend our rights as journalists and as women.”

Shahin chooses not to wear a veil, and dresses in jeans and T-shirts for work. She finds it unacceptable that anyone would force her to wear a hijab.

“This is not Islam,” she says. “Only God has the right to punish me.”

Very open and thoughtful comment, Pamela, and thanks for considering us atheists.

I agree it's a sad state of affairs how politicians feel they have to make such a fuzz about their private beliefs to get elected.

(Could somebody please delete the offensive comments and the spam here?)

Jihadist,

Hmmm, a professed atheist/politician in a Muslim country? How does that work? Got a name we can verify? Maybe an obituary? Jail location?

And what Islamic sect do you belong to? Leader of said sect is who?

poor lady muslim who calls herself jihadist. other lady muslims have lost their lives speaking truth intime of trouble. they knew they were at risk but would not give up freedom. you aren't free enough to speak a word to acknowledge them.

Imam Pamela Taylor

Assalam mualaikum

Excellent suggestion in your essay. We should never exclude atheists from any discourse. The have ethics and values that are universal.

I don't know about other Muslim readers of On Faith, but I find the posts of many declared atheists and pagans/wiccans to be the ones I can comprehend and relate to the most, never mind atheists don't believe in God and pagans/wiccans are polytheists. After all, one either gets God or one don't. It's personal.

I voted an atheist during Malaysia's last general elections. A Malaysian Chinese because I was fed up with the former Muslim Member of Parliament for my area because he kept saying - "God willing" if his constituency ask him to act on something, and "God wills it" when he failed in something. It is Muslim good form to say so as one can never know for certain what will happen in the future, but it has become a convenient excuse for him in implying God to be directly responsible for his inertness and inefficiency in public office, and to expect us to agree with him that it is all by the will of God.

83% of the constituency are Muslims and apparently shared the same view of him. It is not good enough for that he believe in God, that he attended mosques and prays regularly, fast all through Ramadan, performed the Hajj three times, and donate to charities. So do I and other Muslims, but those are the fundamentals of Islam and has no bearing on actual just and effective governance.

The Malaysian Chinese atheist we voted in was a better Member of Paliament. He listened to his constituency concerns, raised them with the relevant authorities and in Parliament as approriate, and acted expeditiously and proactively on issues from crime to enviroment. When he can't, he never said - "It is the will of God", but to truthfully tell us why. A good leader serves his community and by consensus. This Malaysian Chinese atheist MP is one such. A better and truer Muslim in that way, ironically, then the Muslim we voted out.

Salam.

Just a minor correction, but I don't think Baha'i is considered a sect of Islam (except by Iran).

Unfortunately unlike other religions, there is no "head" person/group/Pamela controlling Islam. Has anyone ever listed the various Islamic sects? A starter list? Sunnis, Shiites, Talibaners, Sufis, Wahhabis, "Bin Ladiners", Kahrijites, Ismailis, Zaidis, Fatimids, Assassins aka Nizaris, Alawis, Druze, Ahmadiyya and Baha'i???? Any more??

OK, Pamela, you're a "Progressive" muslim. I just lived the past 3 years in a Muslim country and there ARE 'Progressive' Muslims who were kind, welcoming, and who privately disavow the more obvious examples of Hatred and Cruelty in the Koran.

I THINK you said that there is more than one way to 'Interpret' The Koran.

Progressive Christians and Progressive Jews also say that there is more than one way to 'Interpret' Their Book(s).

Sorry, it's NOT enough.

ALL Progressive, Tolerant, World-Minded religious people need to accept that there are things in ALL the religions of "The Book" that need to be DISCREDITED, not just reinterpreted.

Until you stand up and say THE BOOK IS WRONG when it says Infidels can be killed, when it says Stoning an Adulteress is OK, when it says Homosexuals "Surely Shall Be Put To Death". Etc Etc.

You're just dancing to pretty words.

Another Muslim Woman Journalist Murdered

http://www.iwpr.net/?p=icr&s=f&o=336147&apc_state=henh

thats their religion of peace..dont kid yourself.. they would kill you or convert you that is their goal... its people like her that run interference before they strike..bet you dollars to donuts she would strap a bomb to her
chest and kill as many of you as she could..

thats their religion of peace..dont kid yourself.. they would kill you or convert you that is their goal... its people like her that run interference before they strike..bet you dollars to donuts she would strap a bomb to her
chest and kill as many as she could..

thats their religion of peace..dont kid yourself.. they would kill you or convert you that is their goal... its people like her that run interference before they strike..bet you dollars to donuts she would strap a bomb to her
chest and kill as many as she could..

For those interested in Zakiya Zaki's story there are two links below:

Only six days after the murder of an up-and-coming Afghan woman broadcaster, another female journalist has been brutally killed in her home 40 miles north of the capital in the town of Jabal as Saraj. Radio station owner Zakia Zaki was shot repeatedly in the head and chest as she slept with her 20-month-old son.

According to the chief of the Independent Association of Afghan Journalists, Rahimullah Samander: “She believed in freedom of expression, that’s why she was killed.”

Police say three armed men broke into Zakia Zaki’s home during the night and found their way to the bedroom. She was shot seven times. None of her six children were hurt in the assault.

Zakia Zaki started her radio career during the Taliban era, becoming one of the very few female journalists to speak out against the Taliban regime during its time in power. Like many of her Afghan colleagues, she has been critical, at times, of the many powerful militia commanders who have thrived under the Taliban’s successor, the Western-sponsored Karzai regime.

The murder comes six days after the killing of Shakiba Sanga Amaj, a popular 22-year-old TV presenter, who was also shot dead in her home, purportedly over “family reasons.”

The atmosphere in which all of the country’s assertive young news industry works has become steadily more challenging – not least because of the Karzai regime’s strategy of pressuring the bearers of critical coverage about deep-seated official corruption and incompetence.

As skyreporter has documented in recent weeks, neither President Karzai nor his key sustaining partners in the so-called “international community” have publicly mentioned, much less condemned, the violent raid April 17th by Western-trained-and-financed policemen on the studios of Tolo TV. Seven journalists were arrested without warrants and beaten in the office of Karzai’s rogue Attorney General, Abdul Jabar Sabet.

Skyreporter wishes to pose a question to politicians of the U.S., Canada, Britain and their NATO allies, one which our readers might wish to forward to their own Congressmen and MPs.

When the elected representatives and diplomats of Western democracies fail so completely to defend media freedoms from attack by Western-sponsored regimes such as Hamid Karzai’s, are they not complicit, to a degree, in the outrageous acts of brutality now being subjected to journalists in Afghanistan?

Tell us your thoughts – it’s not much, but it’s something we can do for Zakia Zaki’s six motherless children.

http://skyreporter.com/blog/page/1/20070606_01/

http://www.mediumlight.com/Radio/radio.htm

Pamela,
Excellent piece. Be Sure to ignore the usual distractors and polemists.

As a buddhist I thank this author for being fair. Some of these posters should go to church and preach in church not outside church.

Faith and politics should remain separate forever. Separation of church and state is essential for true freedom for all.

All Christians/Muslims/Catholics/Jewish should learn to respect other's faith no matter their religious beliefs. But Christians/Muslims/Catholics/Jewish do not . Judgemental Christians/catholics/jewish/Muslims! The posters here are an example of that attitude.

The tirades against Pamela have nothing to do with her comments above. The heinous murders and treatment of women in Afghanistan are not the subject of discussion here. Anti-Islamic bigoted zealots are using this forum and her comments as an outlet for thier diatribes. Please stick to the issues she raises. I think she is a courageous progressive person.

An female Muslim Afghan journalist was shot dead by unknown gunmen in her home north of Kabul on Tuesday night as she slept beside her 10-month-old baby, Afghan officials said Wednesday.

The journalist, Zakia Zaki, 38, was the director of a private local radio station in Jabal-us-Siraj, an hour’s drive north of the capital, Kabul. She was shot seven times, said Abdul Jabar Taqwa, the governor of Parwan Province. The baby survived.

Ms. Zaki, the mother of six children, had been receiving threats for the last few months demanding that she take the station off the air, Mr. Taqwa said. The nature of the threats was unclear, but she had been involved in women’s rights advocacy and political activity.

Ms. Zaki was killed just six days after a reporter and anchorwoman on a private television station in Kabul was shot and killed in her house.

The incident imitates the murder of the poetess Asma bint Marwan on the orders of prophet Muhammad. Marwan was an outspoken critic of Muhammad and had exposed him as a fraud througgh her very powerful poetry which was becoming more popular than the lies Muhammad told about receiving revelations from his Arabic god Allah. Perceiving Marwan as a major threat to his power, Muhammad had her killed while she was sleeping with her children.

When the Taliban were in power in Afghanistan in 2001, barring women from education and work outside their houses, Ms. Zaki’s was the only woman’s voice that could be heard near Kabul, on the station Radio-Solh, or Peace Radio. France has provided funds for the station, which operated in an area that had remained under the control of the Northern Alliance during Taliban rule. After the fall of the Taliban Ms. Zaki became the director of the radio station and had remained in that role.

The governor said that it was too early to say who was behind the killing but that the police were investigating.

Ms. Zaki’s colleagues blamed armed groups, remnants from the wartime factions and militias, many of whom are religious conservatives opposed to women taking a prominent public role in Afghanistan. Foreign countries and groups involved with Afghanistan since the fall of the Taliban in late 2001 have helped promote employment and education opportunities for women. But the country as a whole remains conservative on cultural and religions matters.

Ms.Zaki was not the only woman journalist to be killed. The television reporter, Shekiba Sanga Amaaj, 22, was killed in her home after she returned from work

Pamela;
regarding your last paragraph...I would say that surely in an ideal world there would be no need for religion; no need to believe in a supernatural world and everlasting life and a cuddly god to look out for us. Surely in an ideal world we would know better than to buy into magic and miracles and gods and goblins and all the rest of it.
Just a thought...

well again you dont specifically say freedom of religion. why is that? because if you came out and said it you would be violating the koran and your islamic brothers and sisters would be allowed to kill you for it.
and what is the difference between you as a progressive and your ordinary run of the mill islamic? dont tell me what you believe about being progressive - tell us about those who are not progressive. what do they day and do that makes them not progressive?
as for a disaster in politics and religion - where on your site do you come out and say that about islamic countries, or alleged democracies that allow the application of islamic law? you dont. you dont care about religion and governments, unless the religion is not islamic, then you have a problem.
voting according to morals you say?
and i note that your assertion about religion is always directed to christians. what about islamcis. and dont tell me that you noted it when you talked about consenting adults. you were darn general there. men doing men means death for them under islamic law. adultry calls for death or whipping under islamic law. rape, a form of adultry, calls for the death of the girl, she failed to fight hard enough to preserve her honor and to protect the families honor islam allows for the men of her family to kill her.
in america no one can impose their moral view on anyone else. they can have a personal view and act according to it, provided it does not violate the law. your example fits islam and islamic countires more than it does america or the western world. the western world goes out of its way to allow every religion, can islam say it does? where are the jews in mecca? why can pals live and vote and serve in the government of israel but are not allowed to do so in pal areas?
there is nothing similar between the bible and the koran, at least the christian bible. you seem to want to make them equal and they are not.
only the koran demands the most vile actions by their own on those not islamic, as part of the faith. this is not true in the christian religon. christ made no such demands.
obnoxious breed of conservativism? are you talking about islamics? are their conservatices noxious too? how are they different from progressives. tell us what they believe that is wrong? tell us pammy!
if you are so upset at christians, is it because they do not hide their faith? islam does not hide its faith, it marches by the millions to impose islamic rules on the rest of us.
the main difference between islam and the nazi's is that the nazis hated fewer people than islamics do.
for that reason, i say that a good islamic is a vile evil person, because to be a good islamic you have to believe in hate of those not islamic, torture, kidnapping, rape, cutting off body parts, holding them for hostage, and murder, as the koran demands such beliefs.

Pamela, I agree with your very thoughtful comments. One very relevant comment is your plea, as I hear it, for society to have a place at the table discussing these issues for secular humanists, atheists, and agnostics. Thank you.

Pamela. You say you are a Progressive Muslim and yet you say nothing. Shame.

Since you won't, I use space on your thread to honor two courageous woman:

Second Female Journalist Killed in Afghanistan

Two female journalists have been murdered in Afghanistan in less than one week. (6 JUNE 2007)

Last night, Zakia Zaki, the head of a radio station, was killed in her home. The murder was particularly gruesome as she was shot several times in her head and chest as she slept in the same room with her eight-month and three-year-old sons. The sons both survived the shooting.

According to the Governor of Parwan, where Zaki worked and ran the Peace Radio station, three people entered her home and opened fire.

Zaki had received threats in the past as she was a critic of the Taliban and the former warlords.

No one has claimed responsibility for the murder.

Earlier this week, another female journalist was killed in her home in Kabul. According to the father of the victim, Shokiba Sanga Amaaj, some relatives may have been involved in that incident, and there has been at least one arrest in the case.