Doubt Goes Hand in Hand with Faith

The Bible gives the definition of faith at Hebrews 1:1: Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.

Sadly, many people, including Mother Teresa, give little thought to the accuracy or truthfulness of their religious beliefs.

If we are truly interested in pleasing God, should we not consider seriously the accuracy of what we believe about him? The apostle Paul spoke of certain religious people of his day who had "a zeal for God; but not according to accurate knowledge." (Romans 10:2)

The Bible tells us what is acceptable to God regarding true worship: "This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, whose will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth." (1 Timothy 2:3, 4)
Christianity's founder, Jesus Christ, taught that we must love God with our "whole mind," or intellect, in addition to our "whole heart" and "whole soul." (Matthew 22:37) Our mental faculties must play a key role in our worship.
When inviting his listeners to reflect on his teaching, Jesus often said: "What do you think?" (Matthew 17:25; 18:12; 21:28; 22:42) In like manner, the apostle Peter wrote to fellow believers in order to 'arouse their clear thinking faculties.' (2 Peter 3:1) The most widely traveled early missionary, the apostle Paul, exhorted Christians to use their "power of reason" and to "prove to [themselves] the good and acceptable and perfect will of God." (Romans 12:1, 2) Only by such a thorough, careful approach to their beliefs can Christians build faith that is pleasing to God and is equal to the tests that arise in life.—Hebrews 11:1, 6.
To help others build such faith, early Christian evangelizers "reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving by references" the things taught. (Acts 17:1-3) Such a reasonable approach elicited a fine response from honest hearted ones. For example, a number of people in the Macedonian city of Beroea "received the word [of God] with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things [explained by Paul and his companions] were so." (Acts 17:11) Two things are worth noting here. First, the Beroeans were eager to listen to God's Word; second, they did not blindly assume that what they heard was correct, but they referred back to the Scriptures. The Christian missionary Luke humbly commended the Beroeans for this, calling them "noble-minded."
The true worshipers," Jesus said, "will worship the Father with spirit and truth." (John 4:23) Hence, the apostle Paul wrote: "That is also why we . . . have not ceased praying for you and asking that you may be filled with the accurate knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual comprehension, in order to walk worthily of Jehovah to the end of fully pleasing him." (Colossians 1:9, 10) Such "accurate knowledge" enables sincere individuals to put their heart and soul into their worship with full confidence because they "worship what [they] know."—John 4:22

Mother Teresa, like many Catholics, did not know the God of the Bible. In the Catholic church the Bible is not respected as God’s Word. Catholics are taught the commands of men- the catechism, which teachings are in direct opposition to what the Bible teaches.

I’m not surprised that Mother Teresa doubted God’s existence. I’m sure she never used his name- Jehovah (in English), even though his name is mentioned over 7,000 in the Scriptures. How can someone believe in someone they don’t know? If Mother Teresa had been a sincere Bible student she would have come to know and love the true God, the creator of the universe, the One who sent his son, Jesus, to reconcile mankind to himself. Instead, she followed the hollow teachings of the Catholic church and died spiritually malnourished.

I don’t think less of Mother Teresa. My heart goes out to her and all those who are being spiritually poisoned. Yet, for her there is still hope.

John 5:28&29 says, “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”

In the resurrection, Mother Teresa and others, who have not had the opportunity to know the true God Jehovah, will have the opportunity to learn about him and the opportunity to choose to do his will.

I look forward to meeting her.

amhost http://amhost.net/ > amhost

Read the Sermon on the Mount. It says something about not making a (constant!) public display of one's prayers and charitable actions done for God.

Didn't someone sing ?: 'Self praise is no recommendation.'

If someday you should find Voodoo the religion to try out, would you then find Islam inadequate as you now find Christianity inadequate?

Same old Victoria "ducking" the important problems of Islam. Sorry singing American songs will not change Islam or will it? Maybe we need some "holey (not holy) hallucinator" rap music??

How might that sound?

Big Mo de angel man, seeing "pretty wingie thingies" while fasting man, Go Big Mo the koranic man, Go Big Mo he's the "nutteo", Go Big Mo he really was a "nutteo", making the biggie buckies with plunding and pillaging, He was the bloodie man!!!!!

Hmmm, sounds like a contest in the making? A barrel of Texas crude for the best Big Mo rap??

"i bet you used to sing simon and garfunkel tunes"

I bet you did too, Victoria, until you realized you were singing along with two jews.. : )

lib, relax for once! its just not that serious!
these are the days of miracles and wonders!
watch the video- you know you'll like it-

i bet you used to sing simon and garfunkel tunes in your shower when no one could hear-

sometimes i swear youre such a goofball lib- dont you even like MUSIC?
come onnnnn

take a break watch the video

FedEx overnight shipping and free prescription, http://MyRxPill.com

Victoria, Victoria,

Your Islamic "wishy wash" continues while your imams continue to preach death to the infidels. How indeed do you live with yourself??????

one of my alltime favorites hank w.
ive sung it many a time, but didnt know all the words- now i do thanks
thanks anon-

mr schein- my own perspective on the need of a god for our adoration is this-

god has no needs- thats a projection of our own human desires and wants-

but we humans DO need to learn appreciation and gratitude-
often it is a great struggle for me to summon up real gratitude in my heart-
that giving and appreciation

sometimes when im praying it never really materializes

but i keep striving for it - it is real and this is the mechanism i have to strengthen my consciousness of appreciation

Paul Simon and John Mayer
"Boy in the Bubble"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7y-jnbR8uE

Look, Concerned the Christian Liberated, you have the right to believe as you may choose. And so do I. I found this song to be very interesting by one who sang that the words of the prophets are now written on subway walls (and not bathroom stalls)

The Boy in the Bubble
By Paul Simon, 1976:
Graceland

It was a slow day,
And the sun was beating
On the soldiers by the side of the road,
There was a bright light,
A shattering of shop windows
The bomb in the baby carriage
Was wired to the radio,
These are the days of miracle and wonder,
This is the long distance call,
The way the camera follows us in slo-mo
The way we look to us all,
The way we look to a distant constellation
That's dying in a corner of the sky,
These are the days of miracle and wonder
And don't cry baby don't cry
Don't cry,

(Pause)

It was a dry wind,
And it swept across the desert
And it curled into the circle of birth,
And the dead sand,
Falling on the children
The mothers and the fathers
And the automatic earth,
These are the days of miracle and wonder,
This is the long distance call,
The way the camera follows us in slo-mo
The way we look to us all o-yeah,
The way we look to a distant constellation
That's dying in a corner of the sky,
These are the days of miracle and wonder
And don't cry baby don't cry
Don't cry

(Pause)

It's a turn-around jump shot
It's everybody jump start
It's, every generation throws a hero up the pop charts,
Medicine is magical and magical is art think of
The, Boy in the Bubble
And the baby with the baboon heart

And I believe
These are the days of lasers in the jungle,
Lasers in the jungle somewhere,
Staccato signals of constant information,
A loose affiliation of millionaires
And billionaires and baby,
These are the days of miracle and wonder,
This is the long distance call,
The way the camera follows us in slo-mo
The way we look to us all o-yeah,
The way we look to a distant constellation
That's dying in a corner of the sky,
These are the days of miracle and wonder
And don't cry baby don't cry
Don't cry don't cry

oooooooooEmmmmmmmmmmm........

Mark Whatever,

If there is a Singularity, it started this "hands-off" experiment with the Big Bang. Part of the experiment are the inputs of innate free choice and future.

I believe the Covenant of Works was supposedly established in the mythical Garden of Eden with the mythical Adam making it the Covenant of Myths.

concerned the Christian now liberated wrote to me:

"A realistic conclusion by Father Edward Schillebeeckx, the famous contemporary theologian:"

It's an interesting argument under the heading of "realistic" but being somewhat of a scientist myself and looking at Works Convenent I disagree.

The Works Covenent involves such things as night and day, an earth tilting on axis to give us seasons and and the laws of gravity. These things are of a universal order that man now takes for granted.

It's now beyond the realm of possiblities to me that God in fact functions inside and outside our space/time reference. And in fact prophecy, visions and oracles have be recorded since adaptation of written language.

So who am I not to say God the Creator has perfect hindsight and foresight if Christian, Muslim and Jew all believe in prophets ? Our society in fact rejects modern prophets or mysticism as parlor tricks or Illusionists.

And rightly so because I believe that recently, as in the past, religion has been exploted for political gain much like threats Christ posed to Church and State or the Roman Empire Church/State union.

Today, through personal experience and documentary, I see people addicted Jesus and encouraged to be so for the glory of an individual mega church or for political gain. The young are easy prey.

Besides, in this here country we have a freedom of faith which is not supposed to be bigetory or discrimative on many different levels. And so, I don't really care who the Prophet is in a religious sense, I only want to know if the Prophet speaks the truth. And that is a universalist requirement of religious authority.

For another time we may consider self-fulfilling prophecies spanning several generations. I was focused on a Syrian born converted saint that warned of the rise of the ayrian race circa 500ad. See, if you tell your kid he is a bad person will he grow up to be bad ?

Of the three Abrahamic faiths, Islam lacks any form of philosophical basis. Muhammad was never revealed anything, by his godling Allah, that does compel humans to have a deeper introspective view of life and its meaning.

Islam is essentially blind obedience and hence is essentially Submission to the Supreme Will (of Allah). The Quran states that it is the perfect book of rules revealed to mankind. So doubting its authenticity is essentially apostacy. Islam is vehemently opposed to apostacy and doubt by the believer. That is, those who believe and then disbelieve, are hypocrites ("munafiqs") and the punishment fort hypocrites is in most Islamic traditions, death.

Pamela Taylor is promoting misleading and corrupt versions of her own sanitized view of Islamic beliefs, which have been rejected by the large Muslim ummah outside her self-defined realms of Americanized Islam.

Why do people even bother to read such posts that are full of half-truths/lies and imaginations and hence all these posts do is to generate more confusion and chaos.

Hank Whatever,

A realistic conclusion by Father Edward Schillebeeckx, the famous contemporary theologian:

Church: The Human Story of God,
Crossroad, 1993, p.91 (softcover)

"Christians must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God the great scapegoat of history" .

"Nothing is determined in advance: in
nature there is chance and determinism; in the world of human activity there is possibility of free choices.

Therefore the historical future is not known even to God; otherwise we and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."

I am so saddened to read this column and the commentary. More words and mental energy wasted discussing what is completely unknowable. The Koran and the Bible are nothing but words, not divinely revealed, surely not the Word of God. Why this society continues to waste so much effort on this complete nonsense is simply beyond my comprehension.

I am so saddened to read this column and the commentary. More words and mental energy wasted discussing what is completely unknowable. The Koran and the Bible are nothing but words, not divinely revealed, surely not the Word of God. Why this society continues to waste so much effort on this complete nonsense is simply beyond my comprehension.

If people had faith... they would let God deal with the people who don't agree with them...

They don't...

They seem to think that their supreme being needs their help....

Mine doesn't.... each person is welcome to follow their own path, but I don't care whether they follow mine or not....

Treat others the way you like to be treated is a good path to follow....

It would be nice if others felt the same...

Pamela wrote:
There are times when I think a loving God cannot exist and let His creations suffer the way he has allowed people to suffer.

Yet you choose to submit to the cruel allah who demands his followers to:

Put to death those who commit apostasy.

Stone those who commit adultery.

Amputate followers who steal.

Treat people of other faiths as second class.

Punish those who blaspheme him and his prophet.

I think that Mother T. suffered from battle fatigue, she spent too much time in the stuff as they would say. But who are they anyway, does they include us ?

As relating doubt to religion, very few or anyone can claim a direct communion with God these days. Checked one year with FBI and statistics showed about 2 dozen men in the United States claiming themselves as the second coming of Christ. Certain mental conditions are known to cause a phoney God Consciousness. I see that at times the Oracle echoes the will of man's ego.

Look at poverty, disease and a lack of basic human services in Iraq. Lack of electricity and water shows that basic civil order is lacking so I am not surprised political order is lacking power right now.

In Christian tradition, Adam spoke to the Father directly. Is said that Adam broke the Covenent of Works, thereby causing Adam and Eve to lose innocence and mankind has had to cover up since then.

God knew Adam was going to eat that apple I think, just as God knew 9/11 was going to happen just as God knew there would be a war in Iraq. We all doubt these things occured or were allowed to occur under an all loving Creater.

I suggest we all step out of the stuff at times and look at the bigger picture as like, "Now where is the Creator going with this one and how can I help through doing his Will and not mine, let it be so".

To see how the church used the good lady for its own benifit (to provide it with manpower, nuns, from the good country of India), read Chris Hitchens book "The Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice". The poor lady had no choice but to follow the tenents of the greedy church, rather than her own reason. The church's reaction to her doubts is both selfserving and disingeneous.

On Sunday, our junior pastor gave the meditation, prior to communion. He pointed out something very important from Mother Theresa's writings, aside from the fact that her most profound wish that all of her correspondence be destroyed upon her death.

Mother Theresa believed in God, and Jesus, but she struggled with it every day, with profound doubts and troubling thoughts. As someone who thinks a great deal about my religious faith, and who has nothing but questions and more questions, this information was of great comfort.

There is a large school of thought in the United States that says you should just believe, do what your religious leaders tell you to do, and not to ask any questions, because it will all be "OK." I do not subscribe to this school of thought. I think that God gave us brains, and expected us to use them, and didn't restrict our "thinking" ability to figuring out how to program a VCR; he left us free reign for our minds to roam the universe, searching for better answers.

Mother Theresa's struggle gives hope to some of the rest of us, who struggle similarly, every day.

It's MUCH easier to believe in, espouse, cheer, and carry on about something you never bother to question, and never think about. I would encourage those who are absolutely certain in "their faith" and who now find that they have been manipulated by and lied to by what passes for their leaders, to start thinking for themselves. If she can do it, so can the rest of us.

People posit a God, provide the entity with a nature and then become concerned when they lose faith in their invention. This says nothing about the nature of ultimate reality, just that humans seem to need the interposition of a supreme leader--the ultimate dictator for whom they invent rules that they can be subordinate to.

How quaint that this omnipotent and omniscient creature seems to need the adoration and obedience of humanity and only humanity. But humans have been attributing to themselves special qualities that set them apart from and make them superior to all other animals. They do this primarily to feel free to kill or to enslave these creatures for food, labor or pleasure, or to dominate their habitats for human purposes.

Then humans go one step further. In order to authenticate the superior standing of their culture and society with respect to the rest of humanity, they create a God who verifies this contention with a special dispensation. And the authorities amongst each culture who prosyletize this dispensation and are recognized and "sanctified" by their activities sit at the very apex of cultural and often political power, elevated to this position by means of this ultimate blasphemy.

Victoria, Victoria,

Doubt not, Islam is a sham religion with flaws equal to or greater than the Christianity of MT.

Good post. It is obvious that you have doubted and probably still do. Your answer to doubt is faith.
It is possible that only those who doubt can experience true faith. The Christian scripture says that "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Why so defined?
Because what I have seen I need no longer doubt, and what I hope for and which has subsequently been accomplished I am secure with.
But life is filled with hope that is not substantiated and doubts that are not answered. The one who has faith is able to keep on moving toward his/her goals in spite of what they do not know.
That is the purpose of faith and to criticize someone who acknowledges their doubts is to lack any knowledge of what life is like and what true faith is about.

Good post. It is obvious that you have doubted and probably still do. Your answer to doubt is faith.
It is possible that only those who doubt can experience true faith. The Christian scripture says that "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Why so defined?
Because what I have seen I need no longer doubt, and what I hope for and which has subsequently been accomplished I am secure with.
But life is filled with hope that is not substantiated and doubts that are not answered. The one who has faith is able to keep on moving toward his/her goals in spite of what they do not know.
That is the purpose of faith and to criticize someone who acknowledges their doubts is to lack any knowledge of what life is like and what true faith is about.

Good post. It is obvious that you have doubted and probably still do. Your answer to doubt is faith.
It is possible that only those who doubt can experience true faith. The Christian scripture says that "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Why so defined?
Because what I have seen I need no longer doubt, and what I hope for and which has subsequently been accomplished I am secure with.
But life is filled with hope that is not substantiated and doubts that are not answered. The one who has faith is able to keep on moving toward his/her goals in spite of what they do not know.
That is the purpose of faith and to criticize someone who acknowledges their doubts is to lack any knowledge of what life is like and what true faith is about.

THINKABOUTIT- well, i did-

what did you think i was saying?

the atheists on these boards perceive dount as a wekaness in the chain of faith-

your answer-
~Er-- based on this reasoning-- if the 9/11 terrorists had had "doubts" on attacking the WTC, would the fact they still acted on their superstitious beliefs --constiute ANY evidence they had true beliefs?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

are you saying the terrorist were atheists?
that is the only way that reasoning would apply-

they very well could have been as there motivation was not religious but political-

the comment was my observation of how atheists have characterized doubt for believers-

it is not applicable to believers of any type-

so your response, addressing believers logically cannot apply to believers-

your analogy had no bearing on the statement as it didnt address it

read it again

~~~~~~~~~~
"

We are God, and God does not exist outside of our selves. Mother Teresa knew this I think.

Hey Bob, we'll follow you!s LOL! And the poor of the world said, "NOOOOOOOOO! We'll starve..."

Come on Bob, toot your horn...

AG, I make a point of it because YOU and THOSE WHO ADVOCATE THE HOMOSEXUAL LIFESTYLE make a point of it. And I say homosexual because its offensive you took a word the used to mean something totally different and perverted it to mean something its not. Homosexuality is NOT gay. Just like a crack cocaine its very very dangerous to everything that makes you a person. It effeminizes a man and makes women brutish. It destroys families and children and neighborhood parks AND PUBLIC RESTROOMS! And when you try to make it "normal" I must speak up. Now having said that I DO NOT CARE WHAT YOU DO IN YOUR HOME! But do not say your lifestyle is normal on par with whats considered "Family."
Children DO NOT have a say when you adopt them. THATS SICK! AND HORRIBLY WRONG. And it is the beginning of the end of the America I grew up in.

Said,

You forgot to add the Third Axis of Evil, aka the Islamic state of Iran and all the "liberal" Muslim commentators on this blog to your list of non-doubters. Any reason for these exclusions???

Re: HeyYOU

Why is it so important for you to focus on gay and lesbian people? And who decided that you could very selectively use the Hebrew and Christian bible to justify such condemnation? Your comments are a poster child for the craziness of the country's evangelicals and Religious Right. Is it any wonder that you have created the Ted Haggard's and Larry Craig's of the world? Let me make a recommendation, find a rock and hide under it until the world is safe enough for you to join the rest of us!

Re: HeyYOU

Why is it so important for you to focus on gay and lesbian people? And who decided that you could very selectively use the Hebrew and Christian bible to justify such condemnation? Your comments are a poster child for the craziness of the country's evangelicals and Religious Right. Is it any wonder that you have created the Ted Haggard's and Larry Craig's of the world? Let me make a recommendation, find a rock and hide under it until the world is safe enough for you to join the rest of us!

It is interesting to read this post, but very distressing to know that it is framed by Islam's horrible oppression for gay and lesbian people. In Muslim countries, gays and lesbians must remain closeted and hidden just to stay alive. The Muslim punishment for the "sin" of homosexuality is death with such extremes as burying people alive and crushing them to death under the weight of a bulldozer. Let’s call it for what it is! Islam is just another destructive, repressive, flat-earth belief systems -- so similar to the evangelicals and Religious Right of the U.S. -- that is so damaging to gay and lesbian people.

positing a role for doubt as integral to belief in something with zero evidence adds nothing to the credibility of the belief. "The more you doubt the greater your belief" or whatever, is really just goobledy-gook-- it makes no sense.

Only the likes of Bush and the american christian right wingers and their counterparts the Saudi right wing wahabists have no doubts at all,the rest of us mortal men and women have doubts as we should.Amen.

I am supposed to have belief in a loving God because four homing pigeons flew back to Abraham? Huh? And this is the same Abraham that was supposed to kill his son to appease God - how barbaric.

You still have not answered why this loving God allows so many bad things to happen to innocent people. Invoking natural beauty does not prove or explain anything. I still think Sam Harris has it right - there is no God and you would be better to get off your knees and out of those churches and give your money and time to helping the poor; just like Mother Theresa did even after she lost her faith.

He who seeks the Living God....."finds him. He who finds him.....finds...."HOPE....and he who finds "HOPE....finds....."PEACE."

Greetings in the name of the Living God....

As A Servant of the Living God, I believe that we are to be thankful for our gifts everyday, especially our "Good Health" and countless blessings to those who know...."God.

I like Danial talk to "God" several times a day, and like David I ask him....."What is Man dear God that thou art mindful of him?

He replied because he is mine, and he is made in my image and to him I gave all things under heaven and for him I gave my son...to die, on a "CROSS" and with that my son gave all, so that all could live.

I beleive that those who seek the Living God will find him, and I believe that those who find him, find "PEACE.

I believe in "PRAYER" and I know the Living God is making his presence felt even now....

In conclusion those who seek the Living God will find him, and those who the "TRUTH" find Christ, and "PEACE."

....You cannot see, the air but you know its there, as Christians we walk by "FAITH" and not by sight, because...."WE KNOW...."GOD!

We do not look for the Air because we already know its there, We do not look for "HOPE..because we....."WE TOOK A LEAP OF FAITH.....and found "The Living God and because we took that "LEAP OF FAITH....WE FOUND HOPE!

...."If You Judge....People, "You Have No Time To Love Them." --Mother Teresha

...."Call Unto Me...."And I Will Answer Thee..."And Show Thee Great and Mighty Things."
---Jeremiah 33:3

Sincerely, your friend, and fellow student,
Tommy Birchfield,
Voter, Vet USAF,
Class 2007 East Tennessee State University

Masters Program ETSU, Fall 2007

"May the "Peace of the Living God, Be with you....

As St Augustine wrote,regarding the doubter;

"... if he doubts,he lives;
if he doubts,he remembers why he is doubting;
if he doubts,he has a will to be certain;
if he doubts,he thinks;
if he doubts,he knows he does not know;
if he doubts,he judges he ought not to give a hasty assent."
Sounds like doubt is a good idea to me.

Doubt may be a measure of good sense
trying to peek through a murky haze.

A doubt is like a hole, a vent,
where truth sometimes penetrates.

And when one might have a thought about
that which they do not wish to doubt,
they should not stop and doubt
the doubt that questioned
what they thought they knew about.

Amen, Pamela.

Your response is the much needed counterpoint to the unfortunate Mr. Harris' article. Faith and doubt are truly inseparable; to doubt is to be human, but to have faith is what marks us as a race.

Homosexuals will go to any length to discredit God and the Bible in their mind to justify their homosexual lifestyle. Its so sad too. This life is all they have and they spend it hating eternity.

Fifty people on a church outing are riding in a bus when it crashes into a tree. Forty-nine people are killed and one survives. For the one survivor there is at first
Doubt: How can there be a God who would kill forty-nine believers at one stroke.
But then there is
Faith: My life has been spared. There is a merciful God who truly loves me.

I would like to add I appreciate Pamela Taylor's post -- applauding all religious individuals who take "Doubt" out of the Closet to make it acceptible.

It is only when religious groups admit their doubts that they will be less likely to follow demigods who proclaim they have the "certainty" to cause violence towards those who do not hold their beliefs.

I might add Mother Theresa was not honest of her doubts: She wanted her letters to be hidden from the public while she put on a mask on her true views.

To the Catholics who published Mother Theresa's letters -- Thank you for the reason given above.

I think your theory is that Mother Theresa was given a "test" -- sort of like Job.

Except, unlike Job, Mother Theresa never appears to have found relief. No doubt, according to your hopes, she has found it in heaven.

You can hope for this, of course; but this does not constitute any real proof.

My only objection is blurring the lines between the two (i.e. hope and proof.)

Victoria: "to many of the atheists that grace these boards, [doubt] seems to indicate some weakness in the chain of faith".

Er-- based on this reasoning-- if the 9/11 terrorists had had "doubts" on attacking the WTC, would the fact they still acted on their superstitious beliefs --constiute ANY evidence they had true beliefs?

Of course, this is nonsense.

I applaud Mother Theresa for her acts of charity. But I note her deep doubts is EXACTLY what one would expect in a world that was not designed by a divine hand.

I think Mother Theresa kept going on-- because she was hoping for special powers (ie rewards in heaven). She despaired this might not be true, but kept going only because she had convinced herself that life was meaningless without her heavenly crown.

Here are some of the Mother Theresa's quotes showing the severity of her doubt:

“So many unanswered questions live within me afraid to uncover them—because of the blasphemy—If there be God—please forgive me—When I try to raise my thoughts to Heaven—there is such convicting emptiness that those very thoughts return like sharp knives and hurt my very soul.—I am told God loves me—and yet the reality of darkness and coldness and emptiness is so great that nothing touches my soul."

and

“What do I labor for? If there be no God—there can be no soul—if there is no Soul then Jesus—You also are not true.”

For anyone to argue this is somehow "proof" -- shows desparation to believe ... anything.

No Annonymous, God is the Potter and He can make of the clay anything He wishes. I just hope you become a vessel of Mercy and not stay a vessel of wrath.

Victoria Oh Victoria,

I have recognized my brainwashing in Catholicism and Christianity and the flaws in said religion and noted these many times. NT exegetes like Professor Crossan and the Jesus Seminarians are leading us to the real foundations of Christianity.

You and your fellow liberal Muslims have not done the same for Islam. Once again:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth. Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists)via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed, plagiarized and/or improved from those that came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the OT and John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the Koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases and the Filipino koranics. And who supports these acts of terror both financially and theologically??? Iran aka The Third Axis of Evil and also the "Wannabees" from Saudi Arabia both using the blood money of oil profits. And please note that the "liberal", peace-loving Muslim commentators on this blog never, never criticize Iran or the "Wannabees".

4. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centred and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’"
The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life.

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/BUDDHISM/SIDD.HTM

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations/embellishments and myths surrounding the founders of said rules of life.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus for an analysis of Jesus' life to include his illiteracy

HEYYOU,
Your quote is either a lie which makes u a fraud-or otherwise your source-Gensis-is corrupt because a true God could not possibely be a racist.

sven,
Yes you combine in one shot:evil,ignorance and stupidity.

Pamela,
Your article is both Rational and Human:that is ISLAM.Even the great Islamic scholar Abu Hamed Al Ghazali (died 1111 AD)went thru a torturing episode of doubt-before he wrote his great works on Faith.

Rich Rosenthal,
The human race in general especially the overwhelming majority of Jews-such as yourself and the likes of Elie Weisel-have not in any way, shape or form ever condemned the horrendous atrocities of the racist Apartheid jewish theocracy of israel nor its brutal 60-year military occupation of all of Arab historic Palestine-nor of the terrorism of the jewish gangs such as Haganah,Palmach,Shtern and Argun-on which terrorism the jewish theocracy was built and who ethnically cleansed untold number of Palestinians in 1947/9 from their historic homeland and razed to the ground over 530 five hundred and thirty Palestinian villages to prevent them from returning home as per UN 194 of 1947 and who are still living by the millions in refugee camps sixty year later.
Nor have the jews ever condemned the genocide of Bosnian Muslims and not even the invasion, destruction and occupation of Iraq-in fact no community on the face of earth actively and zealously promoted the war on Iraq than the jewish community,AIPAC and Israel.
The world is really fatigued and bored to death from hearing the usual recycled sermon on the mountain: the holocaust, anti-Semitism and the monopoly of the jews over suffering.

Ms Taylor,
I think there are a few more pressing issues than doubt and faith for you to mention. World Islam has not yet condemned bin laden, terrorism and jihad or any other religious justification for the extermination of non-muslims. When all muslims are called upon to turn in those who would kill for Allah then we may consider the fine points of your prattle.

Ms Taylor, you really are on to something when you say "you think allah must be a capricious monster" to allow the suffering he does, he allows it because he likes it, having read the quran I know this "god" takes personal pleasure in tormenting and torturing those in hell who don't agree with him or his prophet. He also does not lead or tell his creation how to achieve a relationship with him or even how to get right with him( unless you murder some innocent soul, of course kuffars are not innocent). Ms Taylor, Islam is evil and you are at best misleading yourself to oblivion.

I don't see or hear many Christian fundamentalist in the news, or many others for that matter, who express any doubt in regards to religious matters.

This includes their personal knowledge of heaven, hell, right and wrong, what is expected of us or any of the many other major issues confronting the world today. If they have any doubts, most are certainly not publicizing them.

Confidence and supreme knowledge trumps all in the world of religion for most believers IMHO.

liberated- the best defense is an offense-

since you are always demanding this of others, what particualr religion were you born and brainwashed into?

and why are you still in it?

you were born catholic, and you're still catholic. just a crossanized one.

i have nothing against catholics whatsoever, but your question rings somewhat hollow in the light of that information.

people in glass houses lib- shouldnt throw stones.

Heyyou,

Hmmm, and again you were born, bred and brainwashed in what flawed religion????

CTCNL, You are sorta like the little engine that could in that the little engine said, "I think I can I think I can." The little engine thought if it said the phrase enough it would believe it and therefore it would climb the hill. You on the otherhand think if you deny the existence of God enough He will just cease to be relevent in your significant others lifestyle. You are sorta like Nietzsche.

Heyyou,

All Muslims, Jews and Christians have been confused since the mythical Abraham and "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingies" were entered into the fictional foundations of said religions.

Hagar, the mother of the Arab race DID NOT TALK TO GOD but an ANGEL. And the Arab race has been confused ever since. Also speaking the angel said he (and the Arab race) will be a wild ass of a man and his hand will be against every one and everyone's hand will be against him. THAT is a foretelling of the LAST world war which is quickly upon us.

Genesis 16.10 Moreover, the ANGEL of the LORD said to her, "I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they will be too many to count."
11 The ANGEL of the LORD said to her further, "Behold, you are with child, And you will bear a son; And you shall call his name Ishmael, Because the LORD has given heed to your affliction.
12 "He will be a wild donkey of a man, His hand will be against everyone, And everyone's hand will be against him; And he will live to the east of all his brothers."
13 Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, "You are a God who sees"; for she said, "Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?"

Ahh, The Jihadist returns once again.

And once again she "ducks" the important issues concerning the flaws in Islam.

She like other "liberal" Muslims refuse to accept the reality of history i.e. Big Mo was a "holey hallucinator" as he supposedly saw visions of a "pwtfft" aka Gabriel. From these hallucinations, came one of the most violent/terror religions humankind has ever seen as evidenced by the Third Axis of Evil aka Iran and the "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia and the following contemporary acts of terror in general supported by Iran and the "Wannabees" financially and "theologically" with the blood money of oil profits:

The arson/terror acts of seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the UK train bombings, the train bombings in Spain, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases and the Filipino koranics.

Instead of accepting the reality of history and demanding a deletion of Big Mo and his scribes' koranic militaristic agenda , The Jihadist and her ilk continue an almost 24/7 "wishy wash" with verbage about other religions, other life styles and other economic and government institutions while Islam continues to bring us closer to a world war.

It is important that we continue to remind The Jihadist and her ilk of the seriousness of the situation. This will continue until we see an acceptance of reality and a condemnation of the actions of Iran and the "Wannabees".

Assalamu alaikum Imam Pamela Taylor

Good essay. No doubt, Prophet Muhammad PBUH doubted the first messages he got, and Islamic history is replete with Muslims who seek to truly understand the Suras, which are the Sahih Hadiths, which are not. I do think we argue too much among ourselves from the time of the Prophet. Truly not a bad thing at all in spite of overheated passions in some instances. May Muslims continue to argue on what is the best way to the Right Path in a civil discourse and to continue to accept diversity of views and respect them within Islam on what it means to be Muslims. We should always have doubts, as always, on too spuriously convenient a way and too rigid a path, as espoused by hypocrites, tyrants and oppressors, to the Right Path as humans.

Peace be with you.
J

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The problem is not that people question their faith it is too large a number do not.Where is the teaching in any major faith to question your religion.All of a sudden with Mother Theresa questioning her faith the greatest fear organized religion can have is coming to the fore that people question their religion.They do not burn you at the stake as a heretic anymore but for you to claim that organized religion welcomes introspection is ludicrous.

The problem is not that people question their faith it is too large a number do not.Where is the teaching in any major faith to question your religion.All of a sudden with Mother Theresa questioning her faith the greatest fear organized religion can have is coming to the fore that people question their religion.They do not burn you at the stake as a heretic anymore but for you to claim that organized religion welcomes introspection is ludicrous.

The problem is not that people question their faith it is too large a number do not.Where is the teaching in any major faith to question your religion.All of a sudden with Mother Theresa questioning her faith the greatest fear organized religion can have is coming to the fore that people question their religion.They do not burn you at the stake as a heretic anymore but for you to claim that organized religion welcomes introspection is ludicrous.

Heyyou,

Tis a bit off topic but let us assume that MT was a reader of John's gospel to keep us on track. She would have had even more doubts considering the long period between the crucifixion and the writing of this gospel plus also lack of attestations vs. the other gospels and the non-verified miracles that only appear in John's gospel i.e. the wedding feast at Cana, the "raising" of Lazarus, "conversion" of Nathanial, blind man cured, satanic possession of Judas, Miraculous conversion of a Samaritan woman, cured a royal official's son, doubting Thomas, cured a paralytic at the Pool of Bethesda, and catch of 153 fish post-resurrection.

Very strange indeed that this fellow John saw or was told about all of these important "miracles" but none of the other gospel writers did witness them or were told about them!!!!! John, the great Embellisher, was he or was it a her??

To be enlightened as to the true, historic Jesus, I recommend reading the books listed at http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html. Four of the NT exegetes/authors are members of the On Faith panel.

Also see copies of most of the NT scriptural documents at www.earlychristianwritings.com.

And you quoted God speaking to Cain? Hmmm, Adam and Eve are myths so Cain was also mythical. You might as well be quoting from Santa Clause.

The writer of this article and the posters who are unbelievers are what God said to Cain, "Cain, why has your countenance fallen? Sin has as its desire you but you must master it." Its so easy to spot the phoneys and those who are struggling with sin. The Lord Jesus is the answer. I'm sorry if my impertinence bothers you but if you are not chasing Jesus you are chasing the wind and NO ONE has been able to grasp the wind in their hand. The Gospel of John is the best place to start. Ask God, "If you and what you say about Jesus is real then show me!" God knows your heart and if you are sincere. If you are He will. But if your asking God to justify your homosexual lifestyle you are chasing the wind. I know.

CTCNL, You prove my point, "Those who are at ease despise the light."

Lifestyle choices DO affect us.

How interesting!!!

Some Muslims coming to grips with the reality of history but still clinging to fictional characters!!!!! Oh well, Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy do have some redeeming moral features. Now if we could only get these Muslims to dump their "holey hallucinator". Wow, would the world then be a much nicer place!!!!!

For those who have not seen: A synopsis of the Rule of the Five F's, " First Find the Flaws then Fix the Foundations". It works not only for fixing bridges but also fixing religions:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth. Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists)via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed, plagiarized and/or improved from those that came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the OT and John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the Koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases and the Filipino koranics. And who supports these acts of terror both financially and theologically??? Iran aka The Third Axis of Evil and also the "Wannabees" from Saudi Arabia both using the blood money of oil profits.

4. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centred and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’"
The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life.

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/BUDDHISM/SIDD.HTM

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations/embellishments and myths surrounding the founders of said rules of life.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus for an analysis of Jesus' life to include his illiteracy.

Abraham NEVER said that. Never would. Its plagerized from the book of Hebrews. In fact from just a few words! The Muslim book is easy to refute just as the book of Mormon. In the case of Muslims and Mormons and all the other cults this saying is true, "Those who are at ease despise the light."

Cattle chapter.
Yes,Cattle chapter(surah six) verse two says,

He it is created you from clay,and then decreed a stated term.And there is in His presence another determined term;*yet you doubt within yourself/yet still you doubt*

*Doubt goes hand in hand with Faith*

So,how can we interpret Cattle chapter verse two.

Well put, Allyssa. It's worth repeating... I don't need to know when or where or even if Abraham existed to appreciate the simple beauty and spiritual insight in Pamela's story from the Qur'an. My faith isn't any more dependent on an objective review of the "facts" in ancient poetry than is my appreciation of a great painting dependent on a chemical analysis of the pigments.

With all these words spinning around.

Issue is not doubt and faith.

Issue, people have, is hypocricy and faith.

If you have doubt then express it, why like MT, say one thing to public and doubt the same thing in private.

This is the issue "Hypocricy", which MT admitted secretly but perpatuated all her life.

As neither a Muslim or a Conservative Jew, I won't pretend to understand all of the rebuttle occuring, but as a Christian who struggels with her faith every day, I think Pamela nailed it. The point isn't to prove that somebody existed, the point is to have faith in their struggles and glories, and allow your self to believe that things will work out, whether in this life or the next. For me, doubt is a necessary part of belief, because without doubt, there is no faith. By questioning our core beliefs, we can open our minds to other possibilities, maybe change certain views that we once held in prejudice or ignorance, and strengthen our faith. For me, doubt is part of a system of spiritual checks and balances.

As neither a Muslim or a Conservative Jew, I won't pretend to understand all of the rebuttle occuring, but as a Christian who struggels with her faith every day, I think Pamela nailed it. The point isn't to prove that somebody existed, the point is to have faith in their struggles and glories, and allow your self to believe that things will work out, whether in this life or the next. For me, doubt is a necessary part of belief, because without doubt, there is no faith. By questioning our core beliefs, we can open our minds to other possibilities, maybe change certain views that we once held in prejudice or ignorance, and strengthen our faith. For me, doubt is part of a system of spiritual checks and balances.

As neither a Muslim or a Conservative Jew, I won't pretend to understand all of the rebuttle occuring, but as a Christian who struggels with her faith every day, I think Pamela nailed it. The point isn't to prove that somebody existed, the point is to have faith in their struggles and glories, and allow your self to believe that things will work out, whether in this life or the next. For me, doubt is a necessary part of belief, because without doubt, there is no faith. By questioning our core beliefs, we can open our minds to other possibilities, maybe change certain views that we once held in prejudice or ignorance, and strengthen our faith. For me, doubt is part of a system of spiritual checks and balances.

As neither a Muslim or a Conservative Jew, I won't pretend to understand all of the rebuttle occuring, but as a Christian who struggels with her faith every day, I think Pamela nailed it. The point isn't to prove that somebody existed, the point is to have faith in their struggles and glories, and allow your self to believe that things will work out, whether in this life or the next. For me, doubt is a necessary part of belief, because without doubt, there is no faith. By questioning our core beliefs, we can open our minds to other possibilities, maybe change certain views that we once held in prejudice or ignorance, and strengthen our faith. For me, doubt is part of a system of spiritual checks and balances.

As neither a Muslim or a Conservative Jew, I won't pretend to understand all of the rebuttle occuring, but as a Christian who struggels with her faith every day, I think Pamela nailed it. The point isn't to prove that somebody existed, the point is to have faith in their struggles and glories, and allow your self to believe that things will work out, whether in this life or the next. For me, doubt is a necessary part of belief, because without doubt, there is no faith. By questioning our core beliefs, we can open our minds to other possibilities, maybe change certain views that we once held in prejudice or ignorance, and strengthen our faith. For me, doubt is part of a system of spiritual checks and balances.

As Salaamu Alaikum Pamela,

We Muslims who value the democratic freedoms enjoyed in the West; those of us who truly believe that , "there is no compulsion in Islam," are grateful for your great contribution in representing us well.

To Muslims in the U.S. who seek honesty and compassion as a way of life: You, Pamela, are the "Face of Islam in America,"
and not the radicals who pretend to be Muslim progressives.

By standing firm for us and enabling organizations like Muslims for Progressive Values to finally offer us an honest and worthy Muslim organization to represent us, we have hope that people in North America will finally realize all the good in Islam.

We are honored to have you represent us.

USA Today needs a wake-up call.

Pamela Taylor is the face of Islam in America

not as others report.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2007-08-20-mattson-islam_N.htm?csp=34#uslPageReturn

Victoria,

It is a free country.

Your comments are typical of liberal Muslims who fear for their lives if they criticize anything Islamic.

Which brings us specifically to The Jihadist and other "liberal" Muslims like Victoria and Pamela. They refuse to accept the reality of history i.e. Big Mo was a "holey hallucinator" as he supposedly saw visions of a "pwtfft" aka Gabriel. From these hallucinations, came one of the most violent/terror religions humankind has ever seen as evidenced by the Third Axis of Evil aka Iran and the "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia and the following contemporary acts of terror in general supported by Iran and the "Wannabees" financially and "theologically" with the blood money of oil profits:

The arson/terror acts of seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the UK train bombings, the train bombings in Spain, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases and the Filipino koranics.

Instead of accepting the reality of history and demanding a deletion of Big Mo and his scribes' koranic militaristic agenda , The Jihadist and her ilk like Victoria and Pamela continue an almost 24/7 "wishy wash" with verbage about other religions, other life styles and other economic and government institutions while Islam continues to bring us closer to a world war.

It is important that we continue to remind The Jihadist and her ilk like Victoria and Pamela of the seriousness of the situation. This will continue until we see an acceptance of reality and a condemnation of the actions of Iran and the "Wannabees".

lib- possibly you arent aware of this as i dont believe ive ever told you- but for a while now ive been skipping over your posts entirely because they always start out the same way-

its quite possible youve been making valuable points all this time, im just not seeing them.

do you think in the future you could save the "wingythings confront the qu'ran etc comments til the end of your posts?

that was i could actually read what you're writing.

when they start out with the same thing all the time i have come to expect the same stuff and whatever you have been trying to communicate (to me anyway) for some time has been lost

peace

Victoria and Pamela,

As with The Jihadist, you continue to "duck" the important issues concerning Islam i.e. the real history of your "holey hallucinator".

With respect to the Torah of the Conservative Jews, stop in one of their synagogues and read their copy. You will find it up to date putting Abe, Moses, David et al on the myth pile where they belong.

I believe National Geographic tried to find evidence about the real Abraham a few years ago. All they found apparently were "Abraham tourist traps".

"I found the quote from Israel Finklestein (Tel Aviv University, author of "The Bible Unearthed") amusing. He states, "Abraham is beyond recovery. Without any proof of the patriarch's existence, the search for a historical Abraham is even more difficult than the search for a historical Jesus."

i have read and reread that tired link you've provided and the conclusions you reach exceed the content of the article.
you have really run away with the ball on this one, it's just one article in the new york times from 2002-

5 years ago!
so where is the follow up articel and anything else that would substantiate your elaborate theory you've developed?
nobody bothers to read links here- (i do)
so thats why your theiories based on one article 5 years ago in the arts section goes unchallenged.

so where are these torahs now?
surely 5 years would have been long enough for them to have been distributed.

this article only states what they INTENDED to do, not what they did.
is there a follow up, or is this a one trick pony?
your conclusion would, im sure, surprise the author of said article.

There is no archeological evidence that the Moses of the OT ever existed. The scribes who wrote the OT, embellished many old Jewish tales/legends/myths to fit their concept of Monad and to keep the general tribal communities in line with oral tradition/guilt. The trails/trials of Noah, Abraham, Job and Moses were concepts for tribal nomads/peasants/shepherds/ordinary folk living in the age of illiteracy, short life spans, hardships, diseases, and "dirt poor" living conditions. Mankind has advanced and these concepts although wise for the ages, are not historical.

From http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

"New Torah For Modern Minds

Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.

Such startling propositions -- the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years -- have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity -- until now.

The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called ''Etz Hayim'' (''Tree of Life'' in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine document. "

I find story of Abraham one of the most compelling stories in Quran. He is given so many beautiful titles in quran like he was friend of Allah, he was a true believer, he was the truthfull one and he had a sound heart. He is being addresed in such a loving way It amazes me. Atleast, I think six time he is mentioned as that he was not among the mushrikeen. His story is so compelling in more then one way and the sacrifices he made. Every time he was tested he passed in flying colors. From child hood to the end he had amazing faith in the creater.
Peace

I find story of Abraham one of the most compelling stories in Quran. He is given so many beautiful titles in quran like he was friend of Allah, he was a true believer, he was the truthfull one and he had a sound heart. He is being addresed in such a loving way It amazes me. Atleast, I think six time he is mentioned as that he was not among the mushrikeen. His story is so compelling in more then one way and the sacrifices he made. Every time he was tested he passed in flying colors. From child hood to the end he had amazing faith in the creater.
Peace

i have noticed that doubt means different things to different mentalities.

to many of the atheists that grace these boards, it seems to indicate some weakness in the chain of faith.

to me, as a faithful person and one whose adult lifetime has been an attempt, sometimes successful sometimes not so successful to serve my fellow humans with as much selflessness as i am poorly capable of-
doubt has served to strengthen my faith.

it all depends upon your perspective and intentions i guess.

Pamela,

But did Abraham really say that???? Evidence or actually a lack of historical evidence has convinced many that Abraham, like Adam and Eve was mythical. But since you believe in the heavenly traveler and "holey hallucinator", you believe in most anything. http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

God, has abandoned no one. God made it our responsibility. It is we who have abandoned our brothers and sisters and as the saying goes ... they'll be hell to pay.

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