Public Sins and Private Sins

Salam Muad,

Thank you so much for your question.

You directed your question to your "brother in Islam". Do you mind if a "Sister in Islam" answers instead?

Well, your question is very important as it touches a very sensitive issue that has always been the favorite misconception, through which Orientalists propagate against Islam. They deal with this issue of the Prophets' nine marriages as though it were his Achilles heel! They contrast him with Jesus. Because Jesus was unmarried, he was considered chaste and wise (as we Muslims also believe him to be). But they portray Muhammad (may peace be upon him) as a lustful womanizer who has nothing to do except to satisfy his fleshy desires. This is the repelling image that enemies of Islam often stress.

This is why your secondary school teacher has the right to get confused. The following facts, concerning his marriages could help her have a better understanding of the personality of that great man:

This comparison between Jesus and Muhammad (may peace be upon him) is unfair because being married is not a discredit to a prophet otherwise we are going to deny the prophet-hood of all the previous prophets of God. This is since Adam, passing through Abraham (two wives at one time), Noah, Isaac, Solomon, David (99 wives) Moses etc., and they were all wise, chaste, and reliable for delivering the divine message.

Prophet Muhammad (may peace be upon him) married this number at a time, when the norm of the place in which he lived (Arab Peninsula in the 7th century) allowed men to marry a much larger number than that, there was no legislation to prohibit this behavior yet.

After that, the Divine order came to Muslims through the Qur’an, to restrict the number of their wives to a maximum of four. God said to them in the versewhat means:
*{If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.}* (Al-An`am 6: 3)

On hearing this order, all who men who had more than four wives divorced them, in full submission to God's orders. The divorced wives - who accepted this divine decree with full satisfaction, implied by their deep faith - soon found other marriages and lead normal lives. Nevertheless, the Prophet (may peace be upon him) - who had nine wives at the time the order was revealed - was exempted from this order in a later verse of Qur’an which gives the meaning of:
*{O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; ...}* (Al-Ahzab 33: 50)

This exemption was because there was a prohibition in the Qur’an for any Muslim to marry the Prophet's wives once he died or divorced them:
*{...Nor is it right for you that ye should annoy God's Apostle, or that ye should marry his widows after him at any time. Truly such a thing is in God's sight an enormity.}* (Al-Ahzab 33: 53)

So, it was rather inhuman for his wives to be doomed to solitude and depravity all their lives. Thus he was exceptionally permitted to keep them.

Looking at the circumstances, in which he married each wife, one finds that all those marriages were the furthest from being motivated simply by lust. The marriage to his first wife, Khadijah, was his only wife until she died after almost 20 years of marriage. This marriage to Khadijah covered the years of his youth. Despite the fact that these years were supposed to be the peak of his sexual demand, he did not think of taking any other wife together with her.

The rest of his wives - whom he married after her death - came at a time when he was nearly 50! Exhausted in spreading the new religion, mostly chased by the infidels and where attempts at taking his life were frequent, I, personally, don't think that this was a romantic atmosphere for anybody to go on amorous adventures!

Most of his wives whom he took after the death of Khadijah were old in age, devoid of beauty and were formerly married - except `A’ishah, who was the only one who was young and a virgin. This is despite the fact that he was always the target of many believing ladies, who came offering themselves to him in marriage, but then he politely apologized to them.

Every one of these marriages was for a reason; either political to make alliance with other tribes, or human to sustain a widow of a martyr or to honor a lady whom no body wanted to marry… etc. It was not reported that he married them out of carnal desires.

He was a model example of justice and kindness to them all regardless of his neutral feelings towards many of them, he would never discriminate among them or reveal the special feelings he had for Aishah rather than the others.

Thank you Maud and please pass my best regards to your respectable teacher.

Salam Muad,

Thank you so much for your question.

You directed your question to your "brother in Islam". Do you mind if a "Sister in Islam" answers instead?

Well, your question is very important as it touches a very sensitive issue that has always been the favorite misconception, through which Orientalists propagate against Islam. They deal with this issue of the Prophets' nine marriages as though it were his Achilles heel! They contrast him with Jesus. Because Jesus was unmarried, he was considered chaste and wise (as we Muslims also believe him to be). But they portray Muhammad (may peace be upon him) as a lustful womanizer who has nothing to do except to satisfy his fleshy desires. This is the repelling image that enemies of Islam often stress.

This is why your secondary school teacher has the right to get confused. The following facts, concerning his marriages could help her have a better understanding of the personality of that great man:

This comparison between Jesus and Muhammad (may peace be upon him) is unfair because being married is not a discredit to a prophet otherwise we are going to deny the prophet-hood of all the previous prophets of God. This is since Adam, passing through Abraham (two wives at one time), Noah, Isaac, Solomon, David (99 wives) Moses etc., and they were all wise, chaste, and reliable for delivering the divine message.

Prophet Muhammad (may peace be upon him) married this number at a time, when the norm of the place in which he lived (Arab Peninsula in the 7th century) allowed men to marry a much larger number than that, there was no legislation to prohibit this behavior yet.

After that, the Divine order came to Muslims through the Qur’an, to restrict the number of their wives to a maximum of four. God said to them in the versewhat means:
*{If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.}* (Al-An`am 6: 3)

On hearing this order, all who men who had more than four wives divorced them, in full submission to God's orders. The divorced wives - who accepted this divine decree with full satisfaction, implied by their deep faith - soon found other marriages and lead normal lives. Nevertheless, the Prophet (may peace be upon him) - who had nine wives at the time the order was revealed - was exempted from this order in a later verse of Qur’an which gives the meaning of:
*{O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; ...}* (Al-Ahzab 33: 50)

This exemption was because there was a prohibition in the Qur’an for any Muslim to marry the Prophet's wives once he died or divorced them:
*{...Nor is it right for you that ye should annoy God's Apostle, or that ye should marry his widows after him at any time. Truly such a thing is in God's sight an enormity.}* (Al-Ahzab 33: 53)

So, it was rather inhuman for his wives to be doomed to solitude and depravity all their lives. Thus he was exceptionally permitted to keep them.

Looking at the circumstances, in which he married each wife, one finds that all those marriages were the furthest from being motivated simply by lust. The marriage to his first wife, Khadijah, was his only wife until she died after almost 20 years of marriage. This marriage to Khadijah covered the years of his youth. Despite the fact that these years were supposed to be the peak of his sexual demand, he did not think of taking any other wife together with her.

The rest of his wives - whom he married after her death - came at a time when he was nearly 50! Exhausted in spreading the new religion, mostly chased by the infidels and where attempts at taking his life were frequent, I, personally, don't think that this was a romantic atmosphere for anybody to go on amorous adventures!

Most of his wives whom he took after the death of Khadijah were old in age, devoid of beauty and were formerly married - except `A’ishah, who was the only one who was young and a virgin. This is despite the fact that he was always the target of many believing ladies, who came offering themselves to him in marriage, but then he politely apologized to them.

Every one of these marriages was for a reason; either political to make alliance with other tribes, or human to sustain a widow of a martyr or to honor a lady whom no body wanted to marry… etc. It was not reported that he married them out of carnal desires.

He was a model example of justice and kindness to them all regardless of his neutral feelings towards many of them, he would never discriminate among them or reveal the special feelings he had for Aishah rather than the others.

Thank you Maud and please pass my best regards to your respectable teacher.

Salam Muad,

Thank you so much for your question.

You directed your question to your "brother in Islam". Do you mind if a "Sister in Islam" answers instead?

Well, your question is very important as it touches a very sensitive issue that has always been the favorite misconception, through which Orientalists propagate against Islam. They deal with this issue of the Prophets' nine marriages as though it were his Achilles heel! They contrast him with Jesus. Because Jesus was unmarried, he was considered chaste and wise (as we Muslims also believe him to be). But they portray Muhammad (may peace be upon him) as a lustful womanizer who has nothing to do except to satisfy his fleshy desires. This is the repelling image that enemies of Islam often stress.

This is why your secondary school teacher has the right to get confused. The following facts, concerning his marriages could help her have a better understanding of the personality of that great man:

This comparison between Jesus and Muhammad (may peace be upon him) is unfair because being married is not a discredit to a prophet otherwise we are going to deny the prophet-hood of all the previous prophets of God. This is since Adam, passing through Abraham (two wives at one time), Noah, Isaac, Solomon, David (99 wives) Moses etc., and they were all wise, chaste, and reliable for delivering the divine message.

Prophet Muhammad (may peace be upon him) married this number at a time, when the norm of the place in which he lived (Arab Peninsula in the 7th century) allowed men to marry a much larger number than that, there was no legislation to prohibit this behavior yet.

After that, the Divine order came to Muslims through the Qur’an, to restrict the number of their wives to a maximum of four. God said to them in the versewhat means:
*{If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.}* (Al-An`am 6: 3)

On hearing this order, all who men who had more than four wives divorced them, in full submission to God's orders. The divorced wives - who accepted this divine decree with full satisfaction, implied by their deep faith - soon found other marriages and lead normal lives. Nevertheless, the Prophet (may peace be upon him) - who had nine wives at the time the order was revealed - was exempted from this order in a later verse of Qur’an which gives the meaning of:
*{O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; ...}* (Al-Ahzab 33: 50)

This exemption was because there was a prohibition in the Qur’an for any Muslim to marry the Prophet's wives once he died or divorced them:
*{...Nor is it right for you that ye should annoy God's Apostle, or that ye should marry his widows after him at any time. Truly such a thing is in God's sight an enormity.}* (Al-Ahzab 33: 53)

So, it was rather inhuman for his wives to be doomed to solitude and depravity all their lives. Thus he was exceptionally permitted to keep them.

Looking at the circumstances, in which he married each wife, one finds that all those marriages were the furthest from being motivated simply by lust. The marriage to his first wife, Khadijah, was his only wife until she died after almost 20 years of marriage. This marriage to Khadijah covered the years of his youth. Despite the fact that these years were supposed to be the peak of his sexual demand, he did not think of taking any other wife together with her.

The rest of his wives - whom he married after her death - came at a time when he was nearly 50! Exhausted in spreading the new religion, mostly chased by the infidels and where attempts at taking his life were frequent, I, personally, don't think that this was a romantic atmosphere for anybody to go on amorous adventures!

Most of his wives whom he took after the death of Khadijah were old in age, devoid of beauty and were formerly married - except `A’ishah, who was the only one who was young and a virgin. This is despite the fact that he was always the target of many believing ladies, who came offering themselves to him in marriage, but then he politely apologized to them.

Every one of these marriages was for a reason; either political to make alliance with other tribes, or human to sustain a widow of a martyr or to honor a lady whom no body wanted to marry… etc. It was not reported that he married them out of carnal desires.

He was a model example of justice and kindness to them all regardless of his neutral feelings towards many of them, he would never discriminate among them or reveal the special feelings he had for Aishah rather than the others.

Thank you Maud and please pass my best regards to your respectable teacher.

Moody,

This is from the link you posted:
2. Her Marriage with the prophet was a Wahy (Divine Revelation). She, herself relates from the Prophet. "He said, 'I saw you in dreams three times. The angel brought you to me and you were clad in white silk. He (the angel) said that it was your consort and he (angel) showed me by opening your face. You are just like that..." Sahih Muslim, Vol.2, p. 285.

An angel who shows a 6 year old child to 54 year married pervert is no angel. Angels must protect the innocence of children and not act like PIMPS.

Would you marry your daughter to anyone who comes up with this story ? my guess is never , so why do you makes excuses for Mohammad ?
Why do you blindly follow this man ?

You are wasting your life finding excuses for this pervert. Hope this site helps:
www.faithfreedom.org

Ross:

For the last time below is the answers to your molested mind questions on the following links:

http://anwary-islam.com/women/prophets-wives.htm

Why did Prophet(PBUH) married Ayesha(R.A)?

http://www.iol.ie/~afifi/BICNews/Sabeel/sabeel6.htm

And keep your judgement to your self and to like minded.

Ross:

If I'm not replying, it doesn't mean I don't have answeres. But it is of no sensible purpose with out RATIONAL REASONING and CUMMUNICATION, which needs ANSWERING and then counter questioning.

Which I exercised until now, but I guess you and like you are stuck in your own delusional brain rubbish, brainwashed by your propoganda machine of lairs and deceivers, SHORT OF ANSWERS!!

Moody,

Mohammad was a wicked man who:
Killed his critics like poetess Asma bin marwan,
Beheaded men and married their wives i.e. Juwariyah and Safiyah,
Stoned women to death for commiting adultery,
Kept concubines like the coptic Maria,
Married a 6 year old Aisha and had sex with when she was 9,
Shamelessly compelled his adopted son to divorce his wife Zainab and married her himself.
Threated to burn people's houses for not attending prayers.

He is no prophet infact he's less an a MAN.

I do not see any virtues coming from him just evil, lust, pride, greed and anger.

Leave this evil CULT join the rest of HUMANITY where there is no hatred for other people's belief whether they are hindus, sikhs, jews, buddhist or christians.

DO NOT LOWER YOUR MORAL STANDARDS FOR MOHAMMAD.

Ross,

Allah bless you with truth and forgive you! You spear my heart and every Muslims heart every time you use the abnoxious language for our beloved Prophet(PBUH). All I can say if you are sincerely seeking truth, it is in open out there and not hidden at all, unlike christian concepts or any other believe.

I'm not a scholar but I sincerely already put enough evidence of TRUTH which speaks for it self.

Allah says: Oh Mohammad! your duty is only to pass on the message. Its up to Me to put it in somebodies heart!

The whole Quran is the proof of Prophets Mohammads(PBUH) truthfulness.

AND HIS WHOLE LIFE IS FULL OF VIRTOUS AND FORGIVENESS.

Go and see your self, ask any Muslim scholar. Visit PEACE TV links!

He had no reason to lie, other wise he could have made the redicule of the Christian believes for example hearing voices and getting pregnant, but he didn't. He only spoke the TRUTH!

Read Quran and have the answer of every bothering question from Muslim scholars. By the time you will finish Quran, you will not be left with ANY (1000) bothering question INSHALLAH!

Moody,

Your entire faith in Allah and the quran depends on your trust in Mohammad, what makes you so sure that the quran is God's word ? How do you know Mohammad did'nt lie ?
Afterall Mohammad was a wicked war mongering arabian chief who commited the crimes of looting, killing, paedophlila, stoning etc.
Please tell us why do you trust this man ? Why would any person who is in contact with God lead an immoral life like Mohammad ?

And please list 3 truly honorable deeds of Mohammed.

VIRTUES are the CORNERSTONE of FAITH.

Ross

Christians always have there own decieving way with there language.

-I and Father are the one.
means we are on the same side, the rightous side)

-If you have seen me you have seen the father, I'm the way and the truth.
(means like on their times all the previous Prophets are the way and the truth and who have seen them seen the Father OR the way of the Father OR the way choosen by the Father).

And please don't avoid many QUESTIONS raised in by my previous 2 mails.
LIKE YOUR CHURCH AND PREISTS ALWAYS DO!!! NEVER CAME TO OPEN PUBLIC DEBAT WITH MUSLIMS??????

Questions like few mentioned below:
1- To whome Jesus(A.S) use to prostrate? Does God prostrate in front of any body???
2- To whome he refered greater them him?
3- To which people house Jesus(A.S) prefer to come again, (i)to the house of people how claim they love him (christians) BUT BREAK EACH AND EVERY LAW HE CAME TO FULFIL or (ii) to the house of people who follow each and every law of Jesus(A.S) as well which he came to fulfil (We muslims)???

AND ALL THE REST OF THE QUESTIONS IN MY PREVIOUS MAILS? I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IF YOU DARE TO ANSWER?

One needs to see through the FABRICATED LIES which are constantly REVISED AND REMOVED till today and hardly left with any authenticity.

TO MOODY:

I have met God and I have met all Three Persons of the Trinity. God revealed Himself to me in His way.

One of the things that God says in the bible is, "Remember I have chosen you, you haven't chosen Me". I have said "Yes" tho and that is not my opinion but a fact.

When the bible says, "Let Us make man in Our Image", well that is alluding to something, it doesn't say, Let Me, but, Let Us.

When Jesus was walking this earth one of the things that He said was, "I and the Father are One".

Another thing that He said to Phillip was, "How long have you been with Me if you have seen Me you have seen the Father", this was in response to Phillip asking to see the Father. Jesus was not being boastful or nothing of the kind, He was just being Truthful.

Jesus was either telling the truth or He wasn't.

If He was telling the truth the the being that came to Muhammed was lying. If He was lying than the being that came to Muhammed picked a liar to be his second-rate prophet behind Muhammed.

In Judaism and Christianity there are only true and false prophets, there are no second-rate prophets.

I have also met satan and he can try to come across as mister nice guy but he isn't.

satan is a liar and a thief and like Jesus said, "It is in his [satan's] very nature".

satan is also decribed as an accuser and a deceiver.

God is a Being of Pure Love and even tho the bible has been twisted and distorted immensely, the bible is about God's Plan for Mankind and for All of Humanity to eventually be with Him in His Kingdom.

By the way, God is not a male or a female or an it, even tho God-Incarnate was a Man.

Another thing the reason that the Jews are the Chosen People is that God Chose Them. Being the Chosen People does not mean that they are better or anything like that, it just means that they are the Chosen People.

Take care, be ready, see you in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Thomas & Ross,

1- I havent qouted the exact words but more or less the same expresion.

2- One better speak upon evidence and not upon personal opinion. Read both the books and evaluate your self which is human/satan handy work keep on changing taking out lies/ incorrect maths/information and which is divine unchanged/correct. And ask your self does God lies and decieve or satan????

3- I would also expect your answer to my questions in this post and previous???

TO MOODY:

You wrote, " Jesus said," I came to keep all the commandments of the God and not to break them". But you Christians broke EACH AND EVERY of them."

What Jesus said was, "I have not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it".

God is Love, a Being of Pure Love, He is not the power hungry, hate filled, egomaniac that some people seem to think that He is.

Since God is Love, following Love, not hatred and/or indifference, is how to fulfill the Law.

There is quite a difference between what you said He said and what the bible said He said.

When and if you read what I write, it is up to you but you should read what I write not what you read into it, I try to be very straightforward in what I say.

You refer to "you Christians", I have never referred to "you Muslims".

God loves us, He doesn't want us to be afraid of Him.

Submitting is out of fear, obeying should be out of love.

We are all God's children, Jesus is God-Incarnate, God wins, satan loses, a tie is completely and utterly unacceptable.

God's Plan is for All of His children to be in The Kingdom.

Take care, be ready, see you in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

moody wrote:
THESE ARE ALL RECENT DISCOVERIES AND SIGN FOR THOSE SINCERELY SEEKING TRUTH!!!!!! AND REMEMBER THAT IS NOT WHAT QURAN IS ALL ABOUT... THESE ARE JUST TESTIFYING SIGNS WITHOUT ANY FLAW OR FAULT.

For a moment let us "assume" the quran is right about all the listed science stuff, now the question remains why do you think it is from god and not Satan, Why can't this stuff be dictated by Satan ? How are you so sure satan has no knowledge of these things ?

What in your opinion is the main difference between God and satan ?

You can close your eyes or do not accept for what ever reasons you have….twist or lie
BUT YOU CAN'T DENY THE TRUTH:
THAT EVERY RATIONAL INTELLIGENT LOGICAL KNOWLEDGE & SICENCE IS TESTIFYING FOR QURAN....AFTER EVERY NEXT DISCOVERY AND AWARENESS!

MODREN SCIENCE AND QURAN (ISLAMIC DIVINE BOOK)

Quran is not a book of science BUT a book of signs. It has more than 6000 verses out of which more than 1000 verses giving CLEAR signs about the modern scientific proven facts in recent couple of hundred years. (WHICH BY ANY POSSIBLE MEANS CANNOT BE SAID BY US HUMANS 1400 YEARS BACK. THE ONLY LOGIC IS THAT ITS FROM SOMEONE WHO IS COMMUNICATING TO A HUMAN AND KNOWS BETTER THAN HUMANS)

- For some people ONE sign is enough to believe.
- For some people 10 signs are enough.
- But some people don't come to believe even after more than 1000 miraculous signs.

Verses about:

1- Big bang theory (in a nut shell).
2- Geo spherical Ostrich egg shaped earth (spherical which is the exact shape)
3- Cosmic dust (referred more perfectly as smoke).
4- How water seep into the earth and rain cycle through AIR.
5- Sweet and salt water of oceans and barrier between them.
6-Expanding sun, solar system and universe for given period of time
7- Earth, sun and stars revolving on their axis and path (orbits).
8- Sun and moon have different paths (orbits).
9- Sun and stars consuming there energy.
10- Reflected sun light of moon. In Arabic mooneer (moon) it self means reflected light.
11- Upper thin layer of earth, which is hold by mountains as nails (bigger in size deep in earth) from shacking.
12- Perfect shape and stages of human embryo.
13- All living being made out of water.
14- All plants and even fruits have male and female atributes.
15- The exact way of plants and animals behaviour and how they communicate.

AND MANY MORE............

THESE ARE ALL RECENT DISCOVERIES AND SIGN FOR THOSE SINCERELY SEEKING TRUTH!!!!!! AND REMEMBER THAT IS NOT WHAT QURAN IS ALL ABOUT... THESE ARE JUST TESTIFYING SIGNS WITHOUT ANY FLAW OR FAULT.

Thomas Baum,

I don't mind your language because by now I came to conclusion that it is common norm in west, false accusations and slinging dirt on others IGNORING CONCRETE PROOFS.
And now in reply to your post:

MUSLIMS OBEY JESUS (A.S.) AND HIS GOD OF ALL CREATURES MORE THEN CHRISTIANS:

BRINGING PROOF FROM YOUR OWN BIBLE BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE IN IT SO YOU NEED IT TO VARIFY, AS MUSLIMS PROOF AND WHAT WE BELIEVE IS QURAN.

Lies or Truth: Evidence speaks for it self !

1- There is not a single verse in ANY VERSION of Bible where Jesus (A.S) said, worship me OR I'm god. Instead he said,” I speak what I hear from father”, “My Father is greater than me."

2- Again word "Trinity" is not mentioned in ANY VERSION of the Bible. The closest verse to trinity that,” Father, Holy Ghost & spirit is one" is thrown out in your REVISED VERSION of Bible. As all your high priests said,” It was a concoction, fabrication, addition, a lie in the Bible, as no such verse is found in the most ancient scriptures".
So please ask your own priests who is lying and fabricating??????

3-We Muslims FOLLOW more in Jesus (A.S) commandments then you Christians:

(You say, you love Jesus (A.S.), but you disobey his every commandment).

4-From Adam to Jesus (PBUT) MENTIONED IN YOUR BIBLE, all prophets when prayed to God, they prostrated like we Muslims.
Do you follow Jesus, how to pray?

5- In ALL Bibles more than 3 times Jesus said swine-pig is forbidden to eat. We Muslims follow him, but you Christians follow PAUL and disobey Jesus (A.S.) commandments.

6- More than 4 occasions in ALL Bibles Jesus (A.S) told wine has bad attributes on the humans. But Paul quotes the "FIRST MIRACLE OF JESUS" and since then wine is flowing like water in Christendom and NOT AT ALL in Muslimdom. (Bible said water tasted like wine and never said turned into wine).

7- Jesus said," I came to keep all the commandments of the God and not to break them". But you Christians broke EACH AND EVERY of them.
Hale-aluu-Yaa to Church, Paul, Mathew, John and Luke!!!!!

8-According to Christian Bible first miracle of Jesus (A.S.) was turning water taste like wine and recovering the shortage in the gathering. But according to Quran the first miracle of Jesus was talking to Jews when he was infant in his mother’s arms.

When after birth, Mary came:
According to the BIBLE she told the Jews that she hear voices and then had a child birth. Do you believe your daughter or sister, if she come and tell you she had birth after hearing voices? Do you think when “IF” Mary had told that to the Jews, they would have believed her???
But Quran tells that the Jews accused her, she knows that Jesus (A.S) was the miraculous birth. So she told the Jews ask the infant. And miraculously Jesus (A.S) talked to them and told them that I’m the messenger from God, therefore be nice and respectful to my mother as she is among the highest of the pious. Quran gives highest respect to Mary, even there is a complete chapter by her name in Quran. You have chapters named by Mathew, Luke, John or lying Paul and many others but not a single by his mothers name Mary.
Which version would you like to tell to your children, HEARING VOICES AND GETTING PRAGNANT or MIRACULOUS TALK????

9-Christians says Jesus (A.S) was the BEGOTTEN SON. What are you trying to apply here? So what you are trying to put in all the humans throat is that the All Mighty God Who made every thing miraculously from Adam to every thing of this world needs to come done to seed…. (God forgive us for such satanic thinking). Allah tells in Quran that when He wants to do some thing, He just says and it happens. He begets not nor He begotten. Human miracles are not the proof of any kind of divinity. Jesus (A.S) was the prophet like all other prophets with miracles.

10-Christians says Jesus (A.S) get crucified for there sins. And a son of god (not mentioned any where in the Bible he himself never said that). And dozens of Bible verses proving that he was not died through crucifixion. You Christians are also divided about it.
So basically what you are making to swallow us (the whole human race) is that the whole nation rape, kill and do bad atrocities and when brought for justice there King hang his own son instead of punishing them. IT DOES REALLY MAKE SENSE! Hale- alu- Yaa PAUL and the greatest deceiving of the human history.

11- Jesus says “ He is jealous God only pray to Him”. But Christians are eager to make partner to Him. We Muslims only pray to God and don’t make any partners to Him.

So I am asking you a question:

Next time does Jesus (A.S) come to the house of people who are obeying his commandments OR who are TOTALLY disobeying his commandments???

Thomas Baum wrote:
You wrote, "Islam is a CULT and the quran is its operating manual.", actually islam is a religion of world domination, a wannabe theocracy by the wannabe god, satan.

I agree with what you say about islam, infact if you read the hadith's Mo displayed signs of demonic possession during those revelations (very similar to epilepsy) fainting, hallucinations, foaming in the mouth etc.
But islam is a CULT, here's a few reasons why:
1. Death for apostates.
2. Women not allowed to marry outside CULT.
3. Systematic brainwashing since childhood.
4. Death/Punishment for critics.
5. Strict prayer times for every muslim.
6. Charity only to be given to members/organisations within this CULT.
7. A Master Slave relationship with ALLAH.
8. Mohammad said SUBMIT and not DECIDE with free will.

see faithfreedom.org

" Thomas Baum:

TO ROSS AND THE REST OF HUMANITY:

You wrote, "Islam is a CULT and the quran is its operating manual.", actually islam is a religion of world domination, a wannabe theocracy by the wannabe god, satan.

It was not Gabriel but satan that came to Mohammed, satan is not only a liar but a deceiver."

If you read this back to yourself, do you understand what I and other mean by "Your Satan?"

Seems to me that even if you don't much care for Islam, you don't need any 'divils' involved for things to go bad... much to the likely chagrin of Concerned Christian...

Cause *he* ...like *you* and *so many* would rather think *evil* of half the world than accept uncertainty.

It's why you don't get science. Why you don't get me, and *forget* about the spirit world.

Or for some, even the *existence* of faith or religion, cause you *can't accept it except in terms of something you can call "controlled" before you even look at it.

One thing I'll tell you is people can screw up a book without any nasties even getting involved.

This is what all you book people, Christian, Muslim, or alleged atheist, must know.

If you trust Who 'Made' Us, *you must chill.*

It's very easy to say 'If it doesn't agree with my book, it must be Satan!' Then argue a lot.

It's only hard at first to *just breathe.* It's not exactly an ideal scenario right now, but *breathe.*

It's not gonna get any better with recriminations of 'Satan' and 'Voodo' and all the usual indirect yaddayadda that somehow never actually works.

One thing I can tell you, is, if you believe in Archangels, it's perfectly possible for someone to meet an Archangel and produce something totally-messed-up around the occasion.

I would say to you, that if you believe anything that big exists in the first place, maybe you could live with people being smaller.

At the very least, it couldn't hurt to be good at being one.

I've seen real horrors in my life. I've even seen and dealt with a lot of stuff I'd call 'Very Bad Spirits.'

But most of it, people really can do on their own. Or at least, the spirits don't need to be That Bad for things to get messed-up.

Frankly, for things to get bad, Thomas, it doesn't *take* a Satan like you believe in. Just people. Afraid and seeking to control, so they do a little more, a little more, and a little more.... and next thing you know, great shame and dishonor is being defended as 'virtue.'

In the name of defending it, they seem to make the 'divil' bigger. And bigger, and bigger, till they hurt the innocent and profess powerlessness against your 'Satan.'

Same Pretty Wingie Talkie Thingies that vex Concerned. Cause if people hurt this much and are yet expected to be so perfect, there *must* be 'divils and Satans and false prophets,' mustn't there?

What if.... It's not that hard?

And that is something some find hardest of all to accept.

As for 'demons,' some believe they are a real and specific kind of creature that must actualy 'exist' in order for some other things to be true or acceptably-true.

What I call a 'demon' is a creature that takes a little bit of fear, and then spins it into a *big* fear, and somehow expects to subsist on the results.

"Padraig, Give Goll Mac Morna an iron tug for his flail."

:)

"Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:

Paganplace,

Smoking some voodoo fumes this evening?? Or is it a visit from a demon from the underworld??

"Until voodoo is removed from pagan rituals, no one is safe especially Paganplace"."

No, Concerned, I'm the Pagan they call when 'voodoo fumes' of whatever persuasion start stinking up the neighborhood.'

As such, I'll point out that you're the one vexed by your imaginings of others being controlled by 'pretty wingie talkie thingies.'

It's just possible that this is not the best way to define your consciousness, either in spiritual or rational terms.

And you could probably use a new name.

Here and elsewhere, both.

And I'm Irish: Tripe is about as stinky as it gets, unless you have some unnatural aversion to peat smoke. :)

Anon,

No one with any common sense believes in "pretty wingie talking flying fictional thinges". Ditto for their ugly counterparts aka " the demons of the demented".

The referenced site was to show that there have/are a large number of demon names given to a large number of demons by a large number of Pagans over the life span of hominids as a counter to one Pagan who noted that Pagans do not believe in demons.

TO ROSS AND THE REST OF HUMANITY:

You wrote, "Islam is a CULT and the quran is its operating manual.", actually islam is a religion of world domination, a wannabe theocracy by the wannabe god, satan.

It was not Gabriel but satan that came to Mohammed, satan is not only a liar but a deceiver.

Jesus is really Who He said that He is and that is God-Incarnate. God is a Trinity and He is Pure Love.

Isn't it just like satan to claim God as his prophet and then to say that God-Incarnate is just a second-rate prophet at that.

Jesus flat out said that He is God in the bible in more places than one, so He was either speaking the Truth or He was lying.

If He was speaking the Truth then the being that came to Mohammed was lying.

If He was lying then the being that came to Mohammed chose a liar to be his second-rate prophet.

Something to think about, don't you think?

I have met God, it doesn't matter if anyone one believes me or not but I would like to say something: There is going to be a lot of people hiding behind their religion and their "holy books".

Like I have said before, it is important what you do and why you do it and what you know, knowing God's Name doesn't get you off the hook, so to speak, on the contrary maybe it means you should follow Him or at least try to.

There is a lot of hatred being spewed out in God's Name, and I do mean the True, Living, Triune, Triumphant God, and that couldn't be any further from the truth since God is a Being of Pure Love.

Take care, be ready, see you all in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented. "

Then why were you claiming a few posts up that Pagans - who do not believe in demons or the Devil, were doing so? And your link went to a very lurid but un-factual website listing a bunch of made-up Bible characters and former Pagan Gods who were "demonized" to keep their worshippers from going back to them. So, what is it, CCNL? Do you believe in demons but not angels?

Moody,

Apparently you have not seen the list of 9/11 victims. As part of your neuron purification see: http://www.september11victims.com/september11victims/victims_list.htm

Add this to your standard Program for "Deflawing" Islam as posted previously but apparently you lost your copy:

Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

"1. Belief in Allah"

"aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added to your cleansing neurons.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gib Gnab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "creationist".

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels/"pwtfft"s to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.

Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

Accept these five "cleansers" and we guarantee a complete recovery from your orthodox Islamic ways!!!!

John -- I may be incorrect about pregnancy, zina, and Saudi Arabia. I thought I had read of a case of a 14 year old girl raped by an uncle and convicted of zina on the grounds of the resulting pregnancy,while the uncle went free because there was no proof of her accusations, but I could be mistaken about this.

Paganplace -- ignoring the later rants... -- Yes we have a long way to go in dealing with intolerance, racism, hatred, and extremism. There are some who will struggle against all forms of bigotry with rational arguments and others who will turn to scripture. I believe we cannot afford to ignore either tool in the campaign for a more humane world. There are some who will be swayed by scripture and intepretation; there are others who will be swayed by rational argument. Limiting ourselves to one tactic or the other loses part of our potential audience.

As for legislation -- I am totally opposed to ennacting laws which claim to be Divine in origin. As one of the commentators pointed out, scripture may be of divine origin, but it's interpretation is purely human. Shariah is a human contsruct in which scholars tried to do their best to understand what the Divine will might be. Those scholars were well-intentioned, but ultimately human and fallible. They could, and did, make mistakes, some of them grievous. Not only that, their rulings must be seen as particular to the situation they were referring to -- a particular social millieu, a particular culture with its own assumptions about human nature, even a particular set of disputants or questioners whose personal situation is unique to themselves. Their rulings in all likelihood make no sense for a different culture, a different millieu, and a people who have vastly different understanding of what it is to be a human being. Regardless of these considerations, tho, I would oppose any new understanding of shariah law if it is posited as divine being ennacted as the law of country.

The sticky part comes in that every law, even secular ones, has morality behind it. We have laws about theft, fraud, even public indecency. The morality of the people who ennacted those laws may come from scripture or reason or some innate sense of right or wrong. We cannot dictate where a person derives there morality from, even a legislator. The key is that the laws must be mutable (since it is a human construct). Our understanding of what is moral changes, so too laws must change with those understandings.

And yes, I agree, there is a lot of work cut out for those of us trying to limit the effects of fanaticism, hysteria, and zealotry.

Ross,

Thank you for your intellectual judgement about Quran.

I hope some day you will read it too!

Moody wrote:
I'm mentioning THE TRUTH and all you are talking about the discoveries about the truth. The point is not by whom BUT discovered. I DON'T BLAME YOU IF YOU CAN'T SEE THE DIFFERENCE!

What proof do you have it is the truth, you can only convince yourself it is the truth after those discoveries have been made by the non muslims. Again why do you need non muslim discoveries to aunthicate your quran ?

The truth is that there is hardly any science in the quran and whatever's in it was already discovered by indians, greeks etc CENTURIES before. Nor is there any religious content in this book, there is no message for mankind, just verses inciting violence, hatred, cruelty against non muslims.
Islam is a CULT and the quran is its operating manual.

Let me correct my self,
BUSH AND IN THERE ALL ADMINISTRATIONS OPINION, THE WHOLE WORLD IS STUPID...right CCNL!

Ross:

I'm mentioning THE TRUTH and all you are talking about the discoveries about the truth. The point is not by whom BUT discovered. I DON'T BLAME YOU IF YOU CAN'T SEE THE DIFFERENCE!

CCNL:

You and like your have no shame comparing couple of thousand with millions of FREEDOM SPONSERED killings. Where many of those unjust actions have NO PROOF to link with the TERROR FIGHTERS.
e.g., 9/11

Click on google just 9/11 and you will find all kind of expert, professional and scientific PROOFS showing that those planes couldn't at all possibly collaspe the towers.

Let me give you line of direction towards the investigation to find the truth.
1- Why all the jews of towers were on holiday on 9/11?
2- See the demolition and destruction of all kind of building, bombed, burned for MANY DAYS and not couple of floors for FEW HOURS on google.
3- See the pattern of buildings falling when destroyed and compare with technique of IMPLOSION is applyed? see on google!
4- On google you will also find the towers timely and systematic blasts on each floor flim captured.
5- On google see Pentagon crach recording. Where are the impact of wings in the hole of the wall? Was it a plane crash?? Where is the rubble? See on google.
6-How could the passport of terrorist found, safe and perfect OUT OF PLANE??
BUSH THINKS THE WHOLE WORLD IS STUPID....right CCNL!

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Please note the following:

The Body Count and why "Until the koran is deflawed, no one is safe!!!!

1) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens,

2) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, 4000 US troops and 77,573 – 84,502 Iraqi civilians http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

3) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

4) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

5) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

6) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

7) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

back on topic-

paganplace- you confused me with jihadist- ididnt mention sin, or define it, but jihadist did an excellent job of it.

and again- you missed yet another point-
christans ARE as we speak, successfully giving (socialist hence communist hence idolatrous athiest worship?) health care

for all your talk about freedom, you sure were quick to tell soja to shut up when she posted ON TOPIC-

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Soja. Whatever you're on about. It's not helping.

This is about someone we know who spams a lot and has a heritage and a soul. What he says is not actually about you. Shh."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
and no- the topic ISNT about someone who spams alot- nor is it about YOU and your one-pointed focus that christians (and monotheists)are to blame for every bad act on the planet.

actually, getting back off the rants-

sojas post did help me-
in a deeper sense we are responsible before the god for our own actions-

it's keeping society functioning that we are discussing here-

a society we all live in- certainly america has its share of rapists and victims, and sexual predators (which is a category a politician who abuses his position to perpertrate his own sexual needs upon can be fit into)

and this affected all of us on a macrocosmic scale in america- didnt it?

clintons indiscretion with ms. lewinsky shool the foundations of our leadership so much so that we started impeachment proceedings against a sitting president.

as we enter the next presidential election cycle- this issue is peculiarly releveant.
hillary was the first lady who appropriated the entire east wing as the dominion of the first lady- a suite that her husband, the potential future 'first laddie' (to quote bill) may be sitting in.

are bills fumbling lies enough to keep americans from voting for his wife in 2008?

i really dont think so myself- but it did and does diminish his veracity.

personally,i am a great deal more distressed by the lies that have resulted in the deahts of our troops and 1 million iraqis (not to mention the 4.2 million and climbing iraqi refugees)

so back on topic- i think it is certainly forgivable-
and it seems many americans do also.

CCNL - You don't believe in angels, but you do believe in demons?

Most of the "Pagan demons" are actually Pagan Gods that became demons when the Church took over.

Athena,

Based on the large number of names of pagan demons, you must be a member of a small minority of pagans who don't believe in them.

And thanks for equating "Voodoo Fumes" to smoking marijuana. I did not find that relationship in my exhaustive review of the subject.

CCNL,

You know as much about Paganism and Voudou as you do about Islam. Whis is to say, not much. Do you even pay attention to what others say, or do you just try to make fun of what they believe in?

You were implying by using the terms "Voodoo Fumes" that Paganplace (and by association, all Pagans) smoke marijuana. That is hardly the case. While a few Pagans will do it in the privacy of their own homes, we obey all laws while in public places. Oh, and we DO NOT believe in demons. But in your case, we'll make an exception.

Lepi......

Hmmm, "Voodoo Fumes"

Modulus dream [Archive] - TalkBass ForumsAnalyse that ! ;) What if Hendrix had the chance to set fire to a Modulus on stage...It would probably put off a lot of fumes...VOODOO FUMES. ...
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MAGICK WITCHES AND PAGANS - Demons
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.kahan/page27.html- Wow, there were quite a few pagan demons but apparently your Pagan cult is more modern?

Moody,

The koran's 6000 verses were plagiarized from the works of the ancients (Hittites, Babylonians, Persians, Canaanites, Romans, Greeks, Jews, Egyptians et al) so please in the future give proper references to the source material.

Moody wrote:
Quran is not a book of science BUT a book of signs. It has more than 6000 verses out of which more than 1000 verses giving CLEAR signs about the modern scientific proven facts in recent couple of hundred years. (WHICH BY ANY POSSIBLE MEANS CANNOT BE SAID BY US HUMANS 1400 YEARS BACK)

If the quran contains so much scientific knowledge then why do muslims wait till the kaffirs make the actual discovery then claim it was in the quran all the time ?
Why do we not have a Skeikh Hamza using the quran to discover a sub atomic particle and name it after his beloved prophet "MOHAMMA-TRON" ? Or a Sheikh Bakhri using the quran to to contribute to the Human Genome project ?
Has the science in the quran helped the muslim world with any scientific breakthrough's or Achievements ?
Inspite of a 1000 or so verses containing scientific facts why is it there are only about 5 Muslim NOBEL prize winners out of a population of over a billion compared to 160+ nobel prize winning JEWS out of a population of around 20 million.

CCNL:

**Smoking some voodoo fumes this evening??**
OK, I'll bite. What are "voodoo fumes?"

**Or is it a visit from a demon from the underworld??**
We don't believe in demons, remember?

**"Until voodoo is removed from pagan rituals, no one is safe especially Paganplace".**
Vodoun is no more a part of my rituals than is transubstantiation of wine and bread.

And her point that pols use the sex lives of other pols to distract voters from other isses is a valid one.

You can close your eyes or do not accept for what ever reasons you have..
BUT YOU CAN'T DENY THAT EVERY RAIONAL INTELLIGENT LOGICAL KNOWLEDGE & SICENCE IS TESTIFYING FOR QURAN....AFTER EVERY NEXT DISCOVERY AND AWARENESS!

MODREN SCIENCE AND QURAN (ISLAMIC DIVINE BOOK)

Quran is not a book of science BUT a book of signs. It has more than 6000 verses out of which more than 1000 verses giving CLEAR signs about the modern scientific proven facts in recent couple of hundred years. (WHICH BY ANY POSSIBLE MEANS CANNOT BE SAID BY US HUMANS 1400 YEARS BACK)

- For some people ONE sign is enough to believe.
- For some people 10 signs are enough.
- But some people don't come to believe even after more than 1000 miraculous signs.

Verses about:

1- Big bang theory (in a nut shell).
2- Geo spherical Ostrich egg shaped earth (spherical which is the exact shape)
3- Cosmic dust (referred more perfectly as smoke).
4- How water seep into the earth and rain cycle through AIR.
5- Sweet and salt water of oceans and barrier between them.
6-Expanding sun, solar system and universe for given period of time
7- Earth, sun and stars revolving on their axis and path (orbits).
8- Sun and moon have different paths (orbits).
9- Sun and stars consuming there energy.
10- Reflected sun light of moon. In Arabic mooneer (moon) it self means reflected light.
11- Upper thin layer of earth, which is hold by mountains as nails (bigger in size deep in earth) from shacking.
12- Perfect shape and stages of human embryo.
13- All living being made out of water.
14- All plants and even fruits have male and female atributes.
15- The exact way of plants and animals behaviour and how they communicate.

AND MANY MORE............

THESE ARE ALL RECENT DISCOVERIES AND SIGN FOR THOSE SINCERELY SEEKING TRUTH!!!!!! AND REMEMBER THAT IS NOT WHAT QURAN IS ALL ABOUT... THESE ARE JUST TESTIFYING SIGNS WITHOUT ANY FLAW OR FAULT.

Paganplace,

Smoking some voodoo fumes this evening?? Or is it a visit from a demon from the underworld??

"Until voodoo is removed from pagan rituals, no one is safe especially Paganplace".

Whilst the Quran lays down many such rules for creation of a civil society, especially considering the pagan Arab society of the time, yet it also contains words translated as such: that..

'if you are faced with exercising justice or mercy, then choose mercy for God is merciful.'

Clearly this outcome is preferred by all of us, given a second chance. With mercy, we can live another day and be light, but punishment once meted, I find it hard to live with. Besides showing mercy when we have the power to do so is the highest form of nobility. We seldom see such from our leaders. To the contrary some also go beyond punishment to the extreme revenge. Yet the Quran repeatedly states that we should forgive when we have the 'power' to do so. "Al'afoa indal maqdara."

Hopefully Ms Taylor, the Muslims will hold their Imams to the same high moral standards that you expect the Christians to hold their priests and pastors to and the public to their public servants. A sexually promiscuous Imam who is a hypocrite, is just as bad a role model as a sexually promiscuous Catholic priest.

*ahem* I'm sorry, were you saying something, Soja?

Yes, this is a rant. But all you 'morally superior folks act like you got a f'n hard on to murder people rather than get well-adjusted to oral sex.

Look at the bodies! Look at the bruises! This is not a Bible story or an abstraction! This is *people.* Look at it. Look at what you're doing.

Gods forbid, but say, *I don't know* when you don't get the science of it.

This is serious.

Seriously: Christians and Muslims both, you're both splitting hairs about the hypothetical unobserved indirect effects of *not freaking out about 'sin' if it involves *sex*... and *all you book-people are blowing the crap out of each other and anyone else in the way.*

Got Wiccans in America with nooses put on their doors and exchange teachers having people crying for their *blood* ...about *trivia.*

Gods. Kindly leave something for the 'meek' to inherit, already, if you believe that stuff.

And I know it's heretical or something for me, the unclean morally-disqualified-from-saying-we-might-have-bigger-problems-than Clinton getting head twelve years ago... type person.

For saying...

Have you ever watched an urbanized civilization fall?

Have you seen what people who very recently were flailing and wailing how they are nothing like animals ...do when you stop the food, the power, (the fuel to keep warm with?

It's not a grand Apocalypse with Jesus or the Mahdi coming back... no matter how hard you try to st the stage that way.

We got a civilization here. It'd be a good idea if a lot of people stopped thinking about penises and started managing food.

Not to get too 'prophetic.'

But it'd be a decent idea. You can't keep enough in your basement. Screw up the system, and no one'll be keeping the dioxin out your well water.

Sex is a thing human alpha types still think they can control, and if only they controlled it, things'd be ok.

You got all this stuff you made, and someone's gonna have to tend it.

You think Pagans got something against your Christmas lights and are trying to ...*gasp* have sex, I 'prophesy' you may have more pressing problems incoming unless you put your mind to preserving civilization.

Go figure. A BJ not being the biggest deal in the world.

Who said it was in the first place, and what's *their* record on things?

How bout, even if you must believe the world was 'intelligently designed....' that that ' design' involves 'You better start saying no to the oil companies if you don't want to be screwed the harder.'

You scream about your 'holy books' while using em for an excuse to say, 'Well, of course, we may as well run this puppy into the ground,' cause if the world ends, Jesus comes back and kills everyone that wasn't wound up about a bj while real people suffered and died.'

Sanity check?

Please?

And pardon if I'm ranty, but ....is this planet somehow insufficently spacious for book-worshippers?

Gods.

Head. On. Game. Would be good right around now.

I don't mean to alarm you, but... the probability of any given authoritarian system losing any of a number of things it depends on is non-negligible, at this point.

And if you think Apocalypse is a grand idea, wait till you get all the nasty horrors and none of the divine vindications.

Wake up, people.

Gods.

Seriously.

If idolatory were the only sin that were unforgivable: 1. No atheist/Muslim would ever be condemned to the Islamic hell, no matter what evil life they lead; 2. Evil Buddhists and Jains would be spared many lifetimes of hard work that is required in their religions to attain purity and liberation without rebirth; 3. No Hindu could ever hope to reach heaven, no matter how virtuous a life they lead, not even after many lifetimes of austerity and virtue because they are idol worshippers; 4. Christians who believe Jesus as the Son of God are guilty of idolatory too and are all headed for hell.

*out the side of the mouth* That's right. Not about you. Gods. They wonder about this *@&#^.

Soja. Whatever you're on about. It's not helping.

This is about someone we know who spams a lot and has a heritage and a soul. What he says is not actually about you. Shh.

To FB11 (post 30 Nov 2007 5:00 PM):

I use the following translation of the Bible: New International Version (Edition 1988, Hodder and Stoughton).

By way of clarification, I'm a lay person and not a Bible scholar who engages in hair splitting interpretations of different translations from the original Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek Biblical scripts. The spirit of the message in the Bible is important to me. I don't need to be a Bible scholar to understand it. There are two types of people who engage in hair splitting discussions: 1. Who are genuinely concerned about the exact meaning of the original, the scholars and lay alike, 2. Who are looking for loopholes in Scripture to justify wrongdoing, just like smart lawyers looking for a loophole to let their client, a wrongdoer go scotfree. But smart lawyer types have no role in religion, in God's sight, where everything is witnessed by God. There will be no need for smart lawyers when we are all called to give an account of our lives to God because everything we have done will be seen for what it is both by the wrongdoer and the one who is wronged.

So all excuses are good only for this side of eternity. If according to Shariah law one is guilty of adultery only if there are four witnesses to the act, according to God's law, one would be guilty even if there was not a single witness, even if the person who committed the act did it in secret and is living in complete denial. That is what Jesus came to teach, about the need to be guided in our actions by the spirit of the law that needs to be written on our hearts. Mere fear of this worldly consequences may make a good hypocrite, but does not a genuinely virtuous person make. Jesus came to offer forgivenss to sinners who repented and were willing to sin no more, but constantly condemned religious hypocrites without mincing words.

The capitals used for 'offender'is mine. I used it to emphasise that a homosexual who offends (like a sexual offender) is different from someone who is a homosexual by orientation. If you recall there was a discussion about homosexuality earlier this year and I posted my views on it based on my own contact with HIV+ homosexuals in a professional setting in 1990/91 and the current scientific update on the topic. (Please read my post on the thread of Desmond Tutu for the details.) I was keen to know what the Bible had to say about homosexuality and I found that in the Old Testament the reference to homosexuality was first made in the context of intended mass rape of two messengers of God (Genesis 19:1-9)in Sodom and Gomorrah, towns which were subsequently destroyed due to their sinfulness. Jesus made no reference to homosexuality in His teachings and neither the Pharisees of His day nor His disciples questioned Him about it, although they did question Him about adultery and divorce. There is another reference to homosexuality in the letters of NT, about heterosexuals giving up their natural inclination for the opposite sex and indulging in sex (?sexual orgies or behaving in other offending ways)with members of the same sex.

And pardon if I totally ignored you, anonymous, this never had anything to do with what it was ostensibly about. Though if you wonder why Africa and Sri Lanka tend to explode... Hey, ask the Irish. It's not that complicated. :)

If you were here, Concerned, I would say, Look in my eyes. And I would ask. Do you *really* think these people... any of these people*really* control 'God' with their books, or their words, or their 'pretty wingie talky thingies?'

Come home.

Come home to your *life.*

Any Gods that don't like that are just plain hung up on ...whatever. You bet it messes people up. Claims and demands of perfection before they let anyone frickin' breathe... Ecce. That's Greek for 'Check it out.'

These books are not the world. They are certainly 'flawed,' but it's not on us to make it 'perfect.'

Have I lectured enough?

A little bird told me. Three, actually. They were pretty. Didn't leave card-catalog references.

Can you relate?
:)

See, Concerned. I think that you fixate on 'Pretty wingie talky thingies' because you feel this was a broken promise.

People *insist* the world must be this way, and, when this fails, ou get just as conservatively-s***scared as any Bible-or-Koran thumper.

They claim that these books and their 'perfection' is where the power is. But, it's not.

It just isn't.

You're more focused on 'Pretty wingie talky thingies' than the word-worshipers ever were.

You know why?

Cause that's what they *do.* They try and take away *everything* but their fear and their presumptive power.

Rule Four: Do Not Play, Do Not Give The Game Away."

Their game has nothing to do with 'Spirit,' ...it has everything to do with *divorcing peole from spirit so they can define the game.*

Their game is not the game. They slouch toward one apocalypse or another.

We *live.* Maybe, we *fight.* If we lose, *who said we had to win?* Them?

Gods.

You claim in your posts to be 'liberated,' but you always come down on the side of 'running scared.'

That's not 'liberated.' Liberated is not needing to 'win' something.

And you know what I think, Concerne, ...you freak out about Muslims cause you got *Stockholm Syndrome* about what the Christians did to you and your family.*

You might accept, even embrace those who done it to you once, but you load all that onto *someone someone makes a 'divil' of that might do it *again.*

But there's no difference.

*You* are not born into 'sin,' *you* are not subject to their judgment, *you* are a *free man of your people, as I'm a free person of *my* people.

Even if it hurts.

Especially cause it hurts.

I am in fact told that a number of Native peoples cried out to the spirits of *my* ancestors to *wake up *my* people* to what was going on.

Message received. And thanks. Sorry we're late.

This is not about 'flaws.' This is about *life.*

This is about human beings.

It's not you or me or anyone that has anything to answer for to books.

The books are what has a lot to answer for.

But they are not the people. Not me, not you, not Muslims or anybody.

People are the people.

And it's time we started acting like it.

Period.

Nooo, Concerned, I'm saying that while you claim to not be Christian, you're still enslaved to their idea that someone told you that you (and by extension the world) must be expunged of 'flaws.'

I point out that the 'flawedness' of the world does not have to separate you from either the Gods, "God," your own spirit, or the rest of the world.

Fights do happen. It's not in a self-superior way that I say I really don't know if I could stomach another. It's just raw disgust.

But they do happen. I gather that some things have happened to you, apart from the obvious cultural ones you've mentioned.

What they did to your family, they practiced on the Irish, and I'm ashamed to say we weren't much help. Till now.

There is a difference between resisting, between *criticizing,* and accepting someone else's definition of yourself, and the world, and all the nast that comes with it.

Nights like this, we have this conversation.

When you turn off that machine in front of you, who *are* you?

You are not a 'concerned liberated Christian," whatever that means.

You're a man, or so you say. When you turn off that machine, do you get to dictate who's 'flawed,' or do you live something?

You are allowed to live something. No excuses, no conditions. But to do this, you cannot be owned by what they say. Not their bombs, not their guns, not their threats, not their books.

You.

This world's alive, and so are you.

And, somehow, in spite of all the talk in places like this, it doesn't suck.

Yaknow?

One must distinguish between what scriptural pronouncements are and what theology is woven around it. Scriptural pronouncements are divinely inspired and hence transcendental and theological formulations are human and hence often contradict divine intentions. Scriptural pronouncements are an option for the weaker sections whereas theological formulations are weapons in the hands of powerful interests. It is therefore necessary that theological formulations be continuously challenged by scriptural pronouncements. One must strive to build up creative tension between theological and scriptural. While scripture remains immutable with its transcendental spirit, theology must change facing new challenges and newly emergent situations.

Those who oppose any change in theological formulations and shari‘ah laws are those who loose their dominant position and the priesthood who monopolise theology and religion for them is instrumental in promoting their interests rather than spiritual source of inner enrichment. The priesthood, monopolising theology, project it as divine and immutable. The run of the mill faithfuls’ understanding of religion is mediated through the priesthood and hence they are made to believe that theology as formulated by them or their predecessors is divine and hence immutable. Any change will amount to changing the divine will.

In Islam, it is common belief that the shari‘ah is divine and hence immutable. Whenever any measures for gender justice are proposed one meets with this stock argument. It is important to note that shari‘ah, though undoubtedly based on the Holy Qur’an, is a human endeavour to understand the divine will. It is an approach to, rather than divine will itself. The priesthood i.e.

the community of ‘ulama projects it as a divine end itself and hence refuse to admit any change. ‘The Shari‘ah is divine’ has become a commonly accepted position. Thus what was thought of women’s rights during the early period of Islamic history has come to be the final and immutable. Even to think of, much less changing it, is, interfering with the divine, and hence an unpardonable sin.

As pointed out above, there is big gap between the scriptural i.e. the Qur’anic pronouncements, and, Shari‘ah formulations. While the Qur’anic pronouncements are purely transcendental in spirit, the Shari‘ah formulations have been influenced by human situation as well as human thinking on all related issues. Women were in subordinate position in the patriarchal societies and this subordinate relationship came to be reflected in the Shari‘ah laws relating to her rights. The transcendental divine spirit was conveniently ignored and the prevailing situation was rationalised through contextual Qur’anic pronouncements. As pointed out above, there is always a creative tension between what is and what ought to be in scriptures. However, this tension is often resolved in favour of the prevalent rather than the emergent and prevalent is eternalised by rationalising certain divine pronouncements.

Paganplace,

What is your point? Are you upset that the hundreds of pagan relgions/vodoo cults are not listed in synopsis of flaws?

Oh, and before you jump on that, Concerned:

" Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:

"Ahh Jihadist, and the biggest sins of all are the failures to see the flaws in the founders and foundations of religion and our refusal to correct them!!!!"

How many 'flaws' in the commands of 'founders' do you think it will take 'corrected' before you have the 'perfect authority' you crave and think you represent?

You that perfect that you'd even *know?*

You?

What if... 'founders' and 'teachers' might have something for us *all* if we stopped *expecting perfection and hassling others when we don't get it?*

The answer to authority constantly letting us down is not another negotiation with a presumption of authority, Concerned.

That kind of thing will *never* be "not flawed."

Free people can live with flaws.

*Tyrants* make people fear their own.

"God" is *not* a tyrant.

Even at Her most 'red in tooth and claw,' She *never* says, "Believe abusive liars or I'll torture you forever."

So much of this thread is about, "I get indignant and support warmongers cause 'Clinton 'lied' about the 'sex' we were fixated on to the exclusion of all else..."

What if, ... "God" is *bigger than any book or creed or belief or any of this *crap* people sling at each other about 'who's a good boy, who's a good girl...'

Gods.

What if it's OK to be human?

What if we could do better at it?

Not better at following whatever darn interpretation of whatever darn reading of whatever darn book is supposed to be 'perfect,'

Better at using what we got.

I don't use the word 'God' a lot, cause it's been appropriated to mean some authority footnoted in various books, all by people who claimed they got something 'Perfect.'

If I had to be Christian, I'd be Gnostic, ....if I had to be Muslim, I'd be a dervish, or some other Sufi thing or other.

Great thing about being a dervish.

You hold out your one hand to the sky... You hold out your other hand to the Earth, and you *turn,* like the Dance is all you got.

Just like Pagans turn the Wheel, just like a sun-dance, just like a Maypole, or a fire-circle, just like you see many places, only less... regimented, I guess.

Flaws?

You bet your bippy there's flaws. But not there.

People who think themselves mighty with words and swords and guns and money and the like... They are concerned and burdened with flaws.

You're obviously concerned and Christian...

Are you really liberated?

I say, if anyone, Christian or Muslim, really *is* going to *hate us for our freedom,* (which is a great irony since it's precisely Pagan freedom that alarms both of you guys)

...Then let's make it about what we really are.

Perfection is not the province of humans, not what the Gods or 'God' gave us to be, never mind croak each other over.

Especially if 'perfection' is supposed to defined by what you *don't* do. By what you can 'get away with' By 'flaws.'

'Sins,' even.

I question how 'liberated' you are, Concerned, because you apparently cannot accept *freedom.*

It seems to me that these 'book people' took away your spirit, ...but you will not get it back by trying to 'eliminate flaws' ...That only puts it in their hands and tries to demand it back.

It was never that far away, or took that much.

You can breathe it right back in. And if that's so hard, someone can help you.

This is how we live. Flaws and all. Come back from that dream. You're a man. Your soul is your own. You don't really need to argue with these people. And if you do, don't lose yourself.

And that's something I learned from some Dineh people.

Capiche?

Anyway, Victoria, point is, once you start telling people 'These are sins,' ...

It never ends.

You and Pamela may have real nice readings of the Koran, but do you really think that's a magic shield against real and present oppresion?

No, it's an enabler. A cause. Just different brand names.

" VICTORIA:

i dont think that is so much a reflection on christianity or religion, as it is capitalism."

Point is, it's not that simple: when people start saying, "State health plans (instead of profiteering) are socialist, and socialist is like Communist, and Communist is atheist idolatry, thus you can't have health care, no matter how much suffering this causes so people can profit... But this is Christian, and prevents 'idolatry,'"

...Well, you get neither Christian virtue nor capitalist free market (cause this system must constantly be bailed out at (communal) public expense to preserve the wealth of shareholders at the expense of the poor and sick and suffering and even the GDP, ) nor socialist communal ideals,

...You get sick people told to go screw themselves, and suffer and die so insurance companies can make money by having money... For Christ.

And when people say, "Oh, Yeah, but Muslims torture," ...you ain't had what I've had.

That's torture, too.

Ahh Jihadist, and the biggest sins of all are the failures to see the flaws in the founders and foundations of religion and our refusal to correct them!!!!

Ah so. And I will have to be very simple here.

On adultery, rape:

For most Muslim countries with both civil laws and the Shariah, the Shariah is applicable only for marraiges, divorces, alimony and child support. Crimes such as rape, murder, bulgary etc are taken up by civil laws and courts for some Muslim countries. DNA is accepted for charges against rape.

Only in Muslim countries where there is only the Shariah are crimes, including rape and murder are deliberated in Shariah courts. Saudi Arabia, for one, has no civil court system. And their kadis(judges) are as controversial in their rulings as those in civil courts.

As Ms. Pamela Taylor said, it is most difficult to prove adultery in a Shariah court, hence that is why rape cases is considered under civil law in Muslim countries with the civil law system apart from Shariah for Islamic family laws. The Shariah laws and court systems are being looked into, and Shariah laws modified or amended in many Muslim countries.

On sin:

What is a sin is also what is ethical and covers mores and values. Sin, in Islam, is fundamentally espousing words and taking actions that are detrimental to oneself and others. This would, naturally include lying, cheating, corruption, abuse of power, gambling, alcohol consumption, drugs abuse, sex outside marraige etc - all of which though one would argue is personal and none of anyone's business, is in fact, affecting those closest to one and one becoming an irritant and/or and inconvenience for others, or has a cancerous effect on those around him. Want to continue to support or hire a drug addict or alcoholic? Want to be party, privy of and supporting someone who got STD due to his sexual excesses and indiscretion? Want to continue to support a leader who is corrupt?

On forgiveness:

As for forgiveness/forgiving the sins of others, God will not forgive those who has not repented for their sins nor those whom they sinned against has not forgiven them.

It helps for the one asking for forgiveness, never to repeat his sin, for God is Most Compassionate and Most Merciful. This is affording everyone second chances to make amends and get his life back on track and ceased to be an inconvenience to everyone due to his own self-destructive behaviorial indulgences. He may think it's personal, but it cost him, his family, friends, colleagues, employers, including total strangers who are taxpayers subsidising the consequences of his personal indulgences in social and health services.

Thank you.

"J"

i dont think that is so much a reflection on christianity or religion, as it is capitalism.
france is a democracy, and pretty christian and has excellent healthcare- so does germany, another christian country-

*That's* a false equivalency,* Halo, not one I was drawing, ...you did.

Does the Swedish government run around proclaiming itself to be "A Christian Nation" and make laws that say 'Idolatry is an unforgivable sin?'

Doesn't matter which brand of that kind of religion does it, ...that leads to atrocity. Sweden is in practice, quite liberal, something which seems to irk religious conservatives over here to no end, when they'd rather call them 'godless commies' for c aring for their own sick better than they'd like to do here.

It's actually a pretty good example: the 'Christian Nation' advocates are just fine with people suffering and dying in the most prosperous nation in the world because they associate state health care with 'godlessness' ...ie, disobeying the commandment against 'idolatry.'

Forgiveness in islam is valid only and only for *true believer muslims*.The others(infidels),christians,hindu,paganists,jews,buddhists,secularists,shintoists are not forgivable.
On the contrary,Allah curses non-muslims and Allah casts fear into non-muslims.

Paganplace,

The present civilization is the work of Protestantism and Human Rights.
You say **Muslim/Christian nation**(!)(?)
Is it a correct and logical classification to put Islam and Protestantism in the same basket ?
Is it a conscientious evaluation to put Afghanistan and Sweden in the same league or USA and Saudi Arabia in the same line ?

Idolatry,

The black stone(hacerul esved) which is believed by *true muslims* to fall from The Heaven.Seven times *turning around* during the pilgrimage,isnt it a idolatry ceremony ?

What quran actually says(as if only a few converts know) is Saudi Arabia.
What quran actually says is Afghanistan.
What quran actually says is islamofascist Malaysia.
What quran actually says is islamic republic Iran.

Some body asked an American settled in Afganistan, WHY?

He replied," When I was a child homosexuality was a crime in America. When I grow up it become legal, so I rushed out before it becomes compulsory."

you missed the point-

it was THE ACT OF POSTING ANECDOTES in question-

NOT THE RULE ITSELF-

you misunderstood what was being said

i said the ATTACK was what reinforced the reasonableness- not the rule itslef-

which stands on its own as reasonable

the entire text was valid, and reasonable-
the part you are concentrating on was simply to PRECLUDE and anticipate the tendency to post anecdotes as '[refutations'.

NOT encourage it-

PP-
"
I wouldn't make that leap. Actually, I think it's an inherent problem with such authorities: if people get too used to following 'The Bible Says This' or 'The Koran says This,' ....then *anyone* can come along, make what they want to do sound 'Bible-ey' or 'Koranical' and pull a bait-and-switch, as history shows."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

there was no bait and switch here-
what was presented is what the qu'ran actually says-

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PP-
"If you remove actual responsibility from actual people, then everything gets negotiated indirectly, and the merits of the system that's 'honored in the breach' more than the observance only means dissociating the system from its own effects."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

islam is a religion of absolute and non-negotiable persoanl repsonsibility
there is no such thing as 'honor in the breach'

breaches are just that- a break, a rupture, a violation of islam-

there is unequivocally NO HONOR in this

there is no disassociation of islam from its effects
it is macro and microcosmic repsonsibilty from the individual to the societal level

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
your statement-
""People doing things wrong by using corruption that the system supports only means the system's power should be more absolute," ...this just feeds back into further corruption, rather than real change."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

the religion of islam NOT only DOES NOT support any form of corruption-
it ACTIVELY and continually speaks against it

THERE IS NO PRESUMPTION OF THE SUPPORT OF CORRUPTION IN ISLAM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PP-
"It's displacing the effects of the system onto some of the offenders, (whether they actually did anything wrong or not) who are duly chastised or forgiven to allow business as usual to continue."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

maybe in the case of the pedophile priests example you gave such a thing has happened-

in islam there is a distinction made between the offender whose guilt is proven and a victim who is not guilty.

actually you bring up a good point that reinforces the justice inherent in islamic law

if it requires 4 witnesses to even get to the point of proving the offender-
it requires great diligence to get to that point

a person cannot be presumed guilty from even damning (in western law)circumstances but must be proven so not once, twice or even 3 times- but 4 total times.

as weve concentrated on the sexual persecution aspect in this thread-

the privacy, and personal repsonsibility of the 'alleged offenders' sexual practices are so overwhelmingly protected AGAINST imjustice that no case has been brought forth!!!!!!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PP-
"'There is no compulsion in religion' to mean 'Nothing we do, no matter how awful, constitutes compulsion,"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

no muslim ive ever encountered, or read about has had such a perverse and clearly bizarre and wrong degeneration of rationale to try and define compulsion to justify awful acts.

this is the first time anyone has ever suggested such a thing-

even muslims who have left islam, are openly hostile to it-
have never attempted such odd interpretation

compulsion-

1. the act of compelling; constraint; coercion.
2. the state or condition of being compelled.
3. Psychology. a strong, usually irresistible impulse to perform an act, esp. one that is irrational or contrary to one's will.

we can say- there i no coercion in islam
there is nothing that is irrational or contrary to ones will in islam

in other words- it is fully incumbent upon ones freedom of choice

which completely negates the possibility of
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Nothing we do, no matter how awful, constitutes compulsion,"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

you will have to prove such a strange contention- by quoting a muslim you know and their reasoning process to come to such an inverse conclusion-

if not- i will just disregard it as a mistaken idea of your own reaoning

but, by any reasoning- as youve (given anecdotal incidences) related some instances-

maybe now you can see how very wise such a law is now-

as the bulk o your reasoning concerned injustices related to sexual circumstances, perhaps you have a renewed sense of the protection of people in these circumstances

so much so- that no one has overridden this law to bring it to trial

peace

Victoria:

" all anecdotes prove are that there are many instances when people go above the law and create their own vigilante moral legislation

its a sideways attack that , actually, logically reinforces the reasoanbl nature of the rule itself-

the more deviations from this rule presented, the more obvious its clarity and practical wisdom."

I wouldn't make that leap. Actually, I think it's an inherent problem with such authorities: if people get too used to following 'The Bible Says This' or 'The Koran says This,' ....then *anyone* can come along, make what they want to do sound 'Bible-ey' or 'Koranical' and pull a bait-and-switch, as history shows.

If you remove actual responsibility from actual people, then everything gets negotiated indirectly, and the merits of the system that's 'honored in the breach' more than the observance only means dissociating the system from its own effects.

We see it in clergy sex abuse scandals, as well as the political ones... if you say, "People doing things wrong by using corruption that the system supports only means the system's power should be more absolute," ...this just feeds back into further corruption, rather than real change.

It's displacing the effects of the system onto some of the offenders, (whether they actually did anything wrong or not) who are duly chastised or forgiven to allow business as usual to continue.

The Koran may acknowledge in some places, inherent human rights and freedom of conscience, (to some: some take the 'There is no compulsion in religion' to mean 'Nothing we do, no matter how awful, constitutes compulsion,' ...the 'Golden Rule' of the Christians can be turned around backwards in the same way: the rationalization goes like this:

"I'm so scared of my Hell that if I weren't Christian, I'd want people to make me straight and Christian by any means necessary, ergo, torture and oppression is 'Love.'"

As soon as you start putting a system in power that says, "Idolatry is an unforgivable sin, this is a Muslim/Christian nation," ...then, well, byebye me....

But then people start talking about how *other* things constitute 'idolatry,' ...and off we go, next stop Kabul or Darfur or Wounded Knee.

as ms taylor stated, the prerequisite for even bringing the charge of adultery up to begin with - is so prohibitive- that it has never been done!

to have 4 witnesses to the sex act itslef, has clearly been too impossible

such an impossible precondition, actually has proven to be the IMPEDIMENT to moral hysteria.

if people choose to be hysterical, they are doing so at their own impetus, not under the jurisdiction of islamic law.

as jihadist pointd out- privacy is so paramount, and respect for it so stringent- that one has to call out when they enter the front door-

even if 4 witnesses entered a home, called out (in accordance with islamic manners)
it would STILL give the adulterous pair time to disengage and STILL not be valid!!!

assuming such a ridiculous situation would exist-

quite obviously- if it were a situation that enabled prosecution , these pages would be FLOODED with stories about adultewrers aught and punished in accordance with islamic law.

but these pages are empty of such stories- because the law itself anticipates the seriousness of such an accusation- and sets the conditions so high, that so far- no one has been able to transcend them.

we have the constitution in america-
but that hasnt stopped president bush from enacting directive article 51 which states that in an emergency (and only HE deems when an emergency occurs) the president can shut down congress, and take complete and exclusive dictatorial control of the american government!

this is so unconstitutional, it actually is the opposite of what the whole system of this republic is based on-

and yet we have a leader who twists the laws and out and out breaks them to give himslef absolute power if he decides thats what he wants.

i dont think you can find any lawyer that will blame the constitution for such a fraudulent law-

they can present MANY laws that actually prohibit such a move-

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CHI20070521&articleId=5720

the analogy is made to correlate the situaton here-

in both cases, the law is being broken to promote an illegal act

in america our entire system is built upon the concept of freedom from kingships-

in islam the system is built upon protection of its adherents and society

(and apparently has done much to prevent the hysteria mentioned)

when individuals override the laws, it is their own actions independent and out of sync with the laws-
not the fault of the laws themselves

its an extraordinarily wise rule

it seems to elicit much anger from opponents of isalm for its incontrovertible reasonableness- who find themselves having to resort to anecdotal incidences to prove its invalidity

all anecdotes prove are that there are many instances when people go above the law and create their own vigilante moral legislation

its a sideways attack that , actually, logically reinforces the reasoanbl nature of the rule itself-

the more deviations from this rule presented, the more obvious its clarity and practical wisdom

Pamela,

Above, you state that "...pregnancy is not considered sufficient proof, despite practices in Nigeria, Iran, and Saudi Arabia..."

I've been studying Saudi Arabia for the past 20 years and writing about it at Crossroads Arabia for the past three. I am unaware of any instance of a Saudi court assuming zina through pregnancy alone. Could I ask you to give me a reference to that?

Thanks.

The Qur'an is so full of contradictions made by the so called prophet who knows what to believe;except for the fact that the Islamic faith and its "holy" books are man-made fantasy and an excuse to kill and mame people that don't believe as you do.....If it wasn't for the sword Islam would have died when the mass murdering prophet died.

halr wrote:
why is it impossible for people to understand the difference between the laws enacted by crazy governments, and the spirit of the true law of the Qu'ran? Roy, is it so difficult to consider that the people people marching through the streets demanding the death of the British teacher have been taught a seriously skewed interpretation of Islam?

Mohammad did the same, he killed jews, beheaded husbands, eliminated his critics, stoned women for adultery etc so what is so different about what the sudanese or saudi's or nigerians or iranians etc are doing. Why is their interpretation skewed ? What makes you certain their interpretation of islam is incorrect ?

"Paganplace -- I think you missed the point that the Prophet did NOT require four witnesses in the case of rape, but accepted the woman's testimony at face value. Or perhaps you were agreeing with me about the horrific nature of the laws in places like Pakistan."

Hi, Pamela.

I suppose the point I was trying to get at was just that that sort of thing is a cautionary tale about how certain kinds of moralism have a way of turning to hysteria. It can get pretty dangerous to turn public life and how-severe-the-condemnation into a litmust test on *piety* rather than the issues of governance.

It's just been a banner week for hysteria all over the world, it seems. Stuff like that just has a way of escalating. Looks like you might have your work cut out for you, if you're trying to make it better.

Samer,

I forgot to mention in my punctuation that your male inspired insight as to why Islamic leadership roles are really only for 'men' and not women is exactly why Islam is such a flawed religion. That and those who use it to justify killing in the name of...bring on that cute little teddy bear...maybe such 'idolatry' will cure you of your tendency to take these silly holy books like the Koran not too seriously. The world will be a better place when you give it a rest.

Sorry Pam,

I am completely uninspired by your words, what you claim to be the words of Allah, and the silliness of this religion called Islam. Look at much of the drivel that follows your post and then ask yourself if this punctuation to that drivel isn't where it should end...move on.

Somalitrade,

Hmmm, no not hallucinating only noting the great Hallucinators of the world, the greatest of which was Teddy Bear Mohammed(peace be upon his cute fuzzy "cartooned" head)!!!!!

You have the keen knowledge sister, but when it comes to female imams there is more wisdom to just having males rather than females. In this society, most of us have no issue with female scholars who are very bright, but when it comes to Islam, we must take it for what it is intended for. An imam in Islam is supposed to be the caretaker of the community he is serving in the various dimensions in their life. he is supposed to be a father figure. We appreciate the knowledgeable, well-rounded Muslim female in today's society because there isn't enough of them to go around to teach real Islam rather than "cultral" islam that's highjacked by immigrant imams that have no clue about applying it to our society today. I would call that "progressive" but with that said, we cannot cross the teachings of our beloved Prophet's sunnah or his Sahaba, where leadership in the Masjid is held by men. And although we do have the wives of our Prophet being called "mother of the believers" they still rendered leadership to Omar and the other Sahaba. Keep up the good work and hopefully it'll open more doors to make you see things clearer regarding the issue of female imams. jazak Allah khair.

PAMELA...I COULD WEEP FOR THE WRONGS HAVING BEEN DONE WHICH IN THE NAME OF SCRIPTURE, ONE AS MANY VICTIMS, OF WRONGFUL INTERPRETATION, WHICH NOT FROM THE HEART BLESSING ALLAH, BUT FROM MIND THUS IN RETAINING MAINTAINING WORDLY POWER, AS WEALTH. THE PROBLEMS OF CLIMATE CHANGE IT BEST NOT ADDING OUR TEARS, TO WORLDWIDE FLOODING THAT BEING DUE. PAMELA, WITH EVERY BREATH WE BE REMINDED OF THAT SPIRITUAL BOND, IN AN FAST MOVING WORLD AT TIMES THERE NEED REMINDING SUCH PRECIOUS MOMENTS BEING, GIFTED... .. . PS Lots of love and kisses xxx X

Concerned:

Hallucinating again?!

Oops,

"A lot of OT, NT and koran thumping and thumpers are actually thumping the rules and codes of the ancients like King Hammurabi who did NOT need revelations from "pwtfft"s or mountain voices to develop needed rules of conduct for us hominids.

Soja John Thaikattil, Sydney, Australia
"This is what the Bible has to say:

"Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolators nor adulterers nor prostitutes nor homosexual OFFENDERS...will inherit the kingdom of God..."

Pardon me please... what translation of the bible is that taken from? I can't recall ever seeing it quoted quite like that before?
Thanks...

Since the prophet put the hex on idolatry isn't it a good idea to make sure the supernatural being, the angel Gabriel so I hear that the prophet got the info, what Allah/God demands of us was actually from Allah/God and not the one that would be Allah/God, Lucifer. Then there's the nagging fact that Gabriel himself could be trying for the office of Allah/God too.

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul has the true story of how, when, where and why Moses made a deal with Lucifer. His motive is obvious, to beat a murder charge and regain his previous position of great wealth.

How did Muhammad do financially after his visit from Gabriel? He was a really important person, before as well as after he died? You do know that sale of soul to Devil brings the wealth of earth, money, political power, eternally being remember and even expectations of being taken bodily to heaven? There are those who profit from worship of Allah/God right now?

Thought you might like to know everything is not necessarily as we're told it is by the authorities, those who profit from what we are told. Their, the authorities' motive just like Moses is obvious. Was Muhammad so moved to prophecy?

why is it impossible for people to understand the difference between the laws enacted by crazy governments, and the spirit of the true law of the Qu'ran? Roy, is it so difficult to consider that the people people marching through the streets demanding the death of the British teacher have been taught a seriously skewed interpretation of Islam? It is not at all difficult to meet a Muslim who knows the true sense of the Qu'ran (eg Ms. Taylor)! Because of the sad case of neo-Nazis who base their beliefs on the Christian Bible, would you assume that all Christians are hating-spewing idiots? Make the cognitive leap, Roy and others, and see that the indignation you feel for all Islam is just as misguided as those who claim to be Muslim but advocate violence.

"Hundreds of Sudanese Muslims, waving green Islamic flags, took to the streets of Khartoum on Friday demanding death for the British teacher convicted of insulting Islam after her class named a teddy bear Mohammad."

Tell us again how Islam s a religion of peace, non-violence and forgiveness. The above story causes me to forget AGAIN.

"...the Prophet was quite clear that there is no sin so grave that it is unforgivable, with the sole exception of idolatry."

Or naming a teddy bear "Muhammad." [see today's news of the Islamic mobs who disagree with the Prophet]

A lot of OT, NT and koran thumping and thumpers are actually thumping the rules and codes of the ancients like King Hammurabi who did need revelations from "pwtfft"s or mountain voices to develop needed rules of conduct for us hominids.

To wit:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/ham/ham02.htm
The Code of Hammurabi- 1792–1750 BC
"If she had been a bad wife, the Code allowed him to send her away, while he kept the children and her dowry; or he could degrade her to the position of a slave in his own house, where she would have food and clothing. She might bring an action against him for cruelty and neglect and, if she proved her case, obtain a judicial separation, taking with her her dowry.
No other punishment fell on the man. If she did not prove her case, but proved to be a bad wife, she was drowned. If she were left without maintenance during her husband's involuntary absence, she could cohabit with another man, but must return to her husband if he came back, the children of the second union remaining with their own father. If she had maintenance, a breach of the marriage tie was adultery. Wilful desertion by, or exile of, the husband dissolved the marriage, and if he came back he had no claim on her property; possibly not on his own."
Hmmm, there appears to be a lot of Judaism and Islam in this Old Code. Plagiarized? Hmmm, probably!!!
See added comparisons at "Comparing the content of
Hammurabi's Code, Mosaic Law, and Justinian Law"
http://www.hyperhistory.net/apwh/essays/comp/cw03hammurabijustinlaw.htm

" If a man and woman were caught in adultery, Hammurabi and Moses decreed that both man and woman be put to death. (i.e. "Billy Boys" and "Monica Ls" had short life spans in the good old days!!!!!) Each set of laws also prohibited a man from having more than one wife at a time. In addition, Justinian and Biblical law required parental consent for any marriage. "

...and asfar as idolatry goes, God will forgive even that if sincerely rejected.

Wa'salaam

Ross -- what you quoted was not written by me and I disagree with it. DNA evidence in cases of rape would be acceptable evidence to establish the identity of the rapist.

Paganplace -- I think you missed the point that the Prophet did NOT require four witnesses in the case of rape, but accepted the woman's testimony at face value. Or perhaps you were agreeing with me about the horrific nature of the laws in places like Pakistan.

Hazocel --

First your translation of 4:16 is totally bizarre. The verses are (as translated by Muhammad Asad):

4:15 And as for those of your women who become guilty of immoral conduct call upon four from among you who have witnessed their guilt; and if these bear witness thereto, confine the guilty women to their houses until death takes them away or God opens for them a way.

4:16 And punish [thus] both of the guilty parties*; but if they both repent and mend their ways, leave them alone: for, behold, God is an acceptor of repentance, a dispenser of grace.

The translation of the arabic word "athoo" as torture is simply incorrect. As for Ross's contention that there is not room in the Qur'an for forgiveness, well, I think the Qur'an's words are rebuttal enough for that point. And finally, I would point out that "both the guilty parties" in Arabic is in the form that indicates both the male and female partners, not just the female half of the couple; there is no double standard that only the women are put under a form of house arrest.

Perhaps more important, I, and many like minded Muslims, believe that the harsh punishments in the Qur'an should not be enacted. We believe that the verse "there is no compulsion in religion" is not to be taken lightly, and thus there must be separation of religion and state is part, which means that religiously mandated punishments are not enforceable by the state. But perhaps more important, we believe that the purpose of such harshness is to impress on the mind of the reader the severity of the sin more than to be an actual prescription for legal action.

I wouldn't get too self-righteous, Halo, it's not like your Bible doesn't have the same kind of stuff in it.

**The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication ,flog each of them with a hundred stripes.Believers witness their punishment.** Quran 24.2

But,if the adulterers are married(with someone else) punishment is *Recm*.Recm means *beheading* and *stoning*.There was and there is *recm* punishment in islam.This is indisputable.
Because,islam is the cult of beheading.
Because,there is *festival of beheading* in islam(this year Dec.20-23)

**If any of your women are guilty of lewdness,confine them to houses until death do claim them** 4.15
Islam rejects Human Rights.
Islamofascist Malaysia,islamic republic Iran and Fear Kingdom Saudi Arabia reject Human Rights.

**If two among you are guilty of lewdness,TORTURE them both** 4.16
Yes,torture them.
Because,islam is the cult of Torture.Burqa or *black wrap* is torture.
Dear muslims,please,please stop to torture.
Ray Charles singing *unchain my heart*.
Yes,yes unchain yourself,unchain your head.

Let me repeat a portion of text from Pamela's thread on forgiveness
-------------------------------------------------

DNA is not accepted in Islam, but at least 4 witnesses of reputable character, should give testimony of the actual penetration of the sexual intercourse to convict him. You might ask, who has sexual intercourse in front of 4 witnesses? I can also ask you "how can you consider 4 men watching others' sexual intercourse, as reputable characters?".But, there is no question or denying that this is not a traditonal, customary, cultural or a kangaroo court, but a legal Islamic court, with legal Islamic judges and legal expert Islamic officials, in the muslim state of Bakori ( Nigeria), of the legal Government, democratically elected by the Muslim citizens of this state. These are the undeniable authentic facts, which no amount of words or actions can ever repudiate.
-------------------------------------------------

Pamela,

The sad truth is there is no room for understanding or forgiveness in true islam and I believe you are astute enough to see that.

You must have heard of the british teacher facing a punishment of 40 lashes for calling a teddy "MOHAMMAD", in this day an age a hindu, buddhist,jew, christian or most non muslims would be ASHAMED if a religion endorsed sentence like this would be carried out in their country, but most muslims believe she deserved it,
why Ms. Taylor ? what is her crime and does she deserve those lashes ?

IS your prophet such a "SMALL MAN" that he
would lash a woman for something like this ? After reading the quran and hadith's my guess is HE WOULD.

"And, as you stated, the sex act must be witnessed by four people. By some jurisprudence school, only when a thread can't go between their bodies will it be regarded as adultery. "

What thickness might be needed for said thread? And who "strings" it? Must be a real hoot in the group love thing!!! Cameras, recorders, strings and wow we have Islamic Porno 101 produced and directed by the head Islamic pwtfft, Gabriel himself!!!!

Ms Pamela K Taylor wrote:

"The Prophet said, "Nobody says: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah' and then later on dies while believing in that, except that he will enter Paradise."

I said, "Even if he had committed illegal sexual intercourse and theft?"

He said. "Even if he had committed illegal sexual intercourse and theft."

I said again, "Even if he had committed illegal sexual intercourse and theft?"

He said. "Even if he had committed illegal sexual intercourse and theft."

I said again, "Even it he had committed illegal sexual intercourse and theft!"

He said, "Even If he had committed Illegal sexual intercourse and theft, and despite Abu Dharr's not liking it."

(reported in Bukhari,Volume 7, Book 72, Number 717)

-------------

Neither the above verses nor its equivalent are found in the Quran, the only book which according to Muslims themselves is the infallible Word of God, a transcript of a table preserved in heaven, revealed to the Prophet Muhammad by the Angel Gabriel.

"Surely this is a glorious Koran, inscribed on an imperishable tablet." (85:22)

So what is reported by Bukhari in Vol 7, Book 72, Number 717 does not count as infallible words. Is it possible that Allah expects a little more of Muslims than just not being guilty of idolatory, otherwise it is setting the bar for heaven extremely low, isn't it?

This is what the Bible has to say:

"Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolators nor adulterers nor prostitutes nor homosexual OFFENDERS...will inherit the kingdom of God...

"Everything is permissible for me" - but not everything is beneficial. Everything is permissible for me - but I will not be mastered by anything...The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord and the Lord for the body. By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. Do you not know that your bodies are the members of Christ himself? Shall I take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! Do you know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

"Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body.

"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price.

"Therefore honour God with your body.

"Since there is so much sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. The husband should fulfil his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control...

A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives."

(1 Corinthians 6:8-10,12-20; 7:1-7,39)

"He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.

"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practise magic arts, the idolaters and all liars - their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulphur. This is the second death...

"My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who wash their robes, and they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.

"Outside are the dogs, those who practise magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practise falsehood."

(Revelation 21:5-8; 22:12-15)

Cause it might be guys like you? :)

Hmmm, one wonders why Muslims don't call in their "pwtfft"s to testify in rape, adultery and abortion cases???

"The Qur'an has stringent witnessing requirements -- four people must witness the couple engaging in the act -- for it to become a matter of public concern."

Not to cherry-pick, but it's just a social *nightmare* arranging for that many sympathetic witnesses when you're scheduled to be raped.

I mean... The place settings... What if someone cancels?

Assalamu Alaikum
Imam Pamela Taylor,

Happy Thanksgiving.

Easier to prove on the corruption and incompetence of public officials than to accuse anyone of adultery. God help you if you're caught commiting adultery in public. Then it become political grist for your opponents.

No one really cares if it was the driver of a public official committing adultery with his tea lady except their respective spouses and families if they are found out. But not if the public official is committing adultery with either his driver or his tea lady, or both.

Makes one wonder, "What was he thinking?" Adultery involves two people at least. It involves the families of the two people if they are married but not to each other at least. It involves lying to spouse and family on where one is going, with whom and why. It involves lying to colleagues for the same reasons as with spouse and family. It sometimes involves asking friends to cover one's track and to provide "alibis". It also involves staffers to lie (knowingly and unknowingly) for one's benefit, and they be a party or facilitator of one's sexual escapades.

The Qur'an and Shariah (for resourcefully "legalistic" adulterers) do provide "cover" of privacy for illicit sexual escapades as no baseless allegations are allowed as slander (fitnah) is a grave sin, thus making the onus of proof on the accuser and he be punished if his allegations are found to be untrue.

And there is the Sura stating before entering a home, one must announce oneself, and then seek permission from the homeowner/occupant to enter. If refused, can't.

And, as you stated, the sex act must be witnessed by four people. By some jurisprudence school, only when a thread can't go between their bodies will it be regarded as adultery.

Between baseless allegations, prior permission to enter a home, four witnessess of the sex act needed, that makes it tough to accuse anyone of adultery in a Shariah court.

I agree with you that public officials be subjected to more stringent rules than the general public as they are entrusted by the public and accountable to the public on public affairs. The trust and confidence of the pubic is pertinent for the continued credibility and effectiveness of a public official in holding office.

I am averse of knowing and being distracted by the sexual escapades of public figures that are publicised and politicised. The details of the sexual escapades are always breathtakingly ridiculous, comical, farcical and great source material for satires on human foibles, lack of judgement, lapse of judgement and pure stupidity. Even children laugh.

Surely we don't want to know about the sexual escapades and sexual prowess of any public official? No matter how many women he has had and how highly they rated him in bed, it does not raise the nation's GNP. One would not want his mind focussed on creative ways in having affairs without family and the public knowing that could be better used in thinking up approaches to stem inflation while increasing growth.

Nor do we really want anyone, especially people we personally know, who are married and having an affair tell us that they are, and perhaps expect us to say:

"Oh, I understand it's just a phase. You're irresistable to her. You can't hurt her in saying no to her."

"I know. Love comes and goes. You don't love your wife/husband anymore and finally found your true love, your soulmate, your muse now."

"I'm sorry for the pain and heartache you're experiencing in having the affair."

"I'm sorry you have to skulk about and get really stressed in preventing people from knowing about your affair."

Peace be with you.

Thank you and best regards

"J"