When Leaders Fail Us

Ummmm, Tori, perhaps you didn't notice that I was replying to someone who posted that the Sun was young (as in 6,000 years) because it was low in helium?

Perhaps you also think that your "guess" is as good as that of the scientists quoted - who, you will notice, all "guess" in the same ballpark of 4-5 billion years.

The fact is, we have good models for how stars and their planets form, and it seems clear that it all happens at roughly the same time. So dating the asteroids and Earth rocks is diagnostic.

Of course, if you and Anonymous want to organize an expedition to the center of the Sun to measure the helium content, well... go with god.

Amir:

A fiqh council has no enforcement mechanism unless you to choose to accede to its jurisdiction over you. It is an advisory group that has little real power. Case in point, the annual debate over moonsighting and lack of uniformity within the community. Were the Fiqh Council and ISNA to have the sort of power you attribute to it, these would not be issues.

Perhaps you need to google the concept of minority fiqh, its dynamics and its methodologies.

Your depth of knowledge on the subject explain your inability and unwillingness to debate.

QED

The whole issue of shariah, as it has existed throughout Islamic history, rests on the question of authority, i.e. who is qualified and has jurisdiction to enact and enforce shariah. The last time I checked, ISNA neither has such an authority nor asserts it.

_______________________________________________
Well it is evident Saeed that you don't check too deeply or know much about how such organizations arose, who supports them and what they promote in our Masjids. In assuming others are uneducated and naive about these facts, you project your own insecurities and destroy your own credibility to debate anything.

Clearly you have no concept of the purpose of a fiqh counsel and it is pointless to debate further.

Amir:

Ah yes, knowledge of the unseen is always the last refuge of the truly ignorant, as with your apparent expertise on ISNA.

Again, ISNA does not seek to promote a shariah agenda, so I don't understand why the attacks on my supposed lack of understanding about shariah. The whole issue of shariah, as it has existed throughout Islamic history, rests on the question of authority, i.e. who is qualified and has jurisdiction to enact and enforce shariah. The last time I checked, ISNA neither has such an authority nor asserts it. Thus, the constant and convenient use of ISNA as a whipping post for pre-Islam 101 types is a non-starter.

As for Khalid Abou El Fadl, yes, he is well qualified, and I am impressed you know who he is. It only proves that you scanned the shelves at your local Borders.

*A Land Called Paradise*

*Would you be scared if I moved to your city* Yes,of course.Is it thier or YOUR FAULT ?

*Allah means God* No,Allah is Allah,not God.Allah has no Son.Allah curses and hates from non-muslims.

*My forefathers were muslim slaves* Till end of 19th century,muslims(especially ottomans) were trading slaves.Where was muslim A.Lincoln ?

*I wear the headscarf even though my parents dont want(you provoke the daughters to defy and riot agaisnt her parents)*Yes,yes it is *your choice* Yes,it is the choice of six years old child girl and she will be one of four women even though her parents dont want.

*Terrorists(?) hijacked my religion/cult* Where were you when they do so ? Are they terrorists or jihadists ?

*We came here 28 years ago* Why did you leave and run away from Dar ul Salam(islamic Paradise) ?

*Yes,I'm Latino and Muslim and Sexslave*

*I want to live Green* All bedouin countries are desert.

*I'm Human* Yes,*if dogs,donkeys and women...* Yes,woman is Human as well.I'm sorry.

Who is Mrs. R*O*M*N*E*Y?????

Please see Linko's for:

1) R*O*M*N*E*Y : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitt_Romney Thanks.

2) Mc*CAiN: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain Thanks

Where is Mrs. McCain????????? where are ye????? Come out come out where ever ye are!

THE WAY IN WHICH ISLAMIC LAW IS OBSERVED IN CONTEMPORARY AMERICA.

taught by-

INGRID MATTSON
Professor of Islamic Studies and Christian-Muslim Relations

and let me guess...implimented by ISNA's bogus Figh Counsel.

Whatever happened to the document immigrants sign that attests that they will abide by the US Constitution.

Guess old American gal Ingrid would pee all over such a document. Her Shariah in the US position is quite clear and inline with the organization of thugs she calls her very own.

Maybe it is you Saeed who needs to learn about what Shariah truly promotes. I would suggest a legitimate scholar for your research like Khaled Abou El Fadl who so wisely wrote about wrestling Islam from the extremists.

As for ISNA, their games are all too well documented and I know far more about it than your passive aggressive mind would care to acknowledge..

The Obfuscating Jihadist (formerly Jist) has come full circle. She recently indicated a liberal leaning and deletion of the more offensive ways and passages in the koran. However, whereas she continues to get excellent feedback from commentators on their basic beliefs, never does she provide the specific basics of her own. We therefore have to assume that she actually follows and adheres to the hallucinogenic-based, plagiarized, militaristic and anti-feminine rules of Islam and its leaders and the sins inherent in such.

e.g.
1. Believes in "pretty/ugly wingie" thingies and teaches her children that such things really exist.

2. Believes that the long-dead Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the "Gabe" cave and therein received the good words now listed in the koran.

3. That Sunnis are superior to Shiites in all aspects of life.

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7, 800 year-old blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites gives significant credence that suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran. Having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of lust and polygamy. The condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of anger and greed.

Hello Anonymous :)

You : Allah is the devil.

Moi : Do you believe in God? If you don't, why bother. If your are of the other Abrahamic faiths, how do you know for sure?

You : Renounce Islam now before it's too late.

Moi : Late for whom?

You : All Muslims are going to hell.

Moi : If you don't believe in God or care for religion, you don't believe in heaven and hell. So, what does it matter.

If you are of one of the other Abrahamic faiths, perhaps your faith faith says others need to be saved, need salvation only through their faith.

And besides, only God will judge who will go to hell, no?

I hope you find heaven here on earth(if you are a non-believer) or find heaven in this life and go to heaven too in the afterlire (if you are a believer).

All the best

"J" :)

Jihadist:

Allah is the devil.
Renounce Islam now before it's too late.
All Muslims are going to hell.

Jihadist:

If there is a God, there must be a devil.
Devils lie, say they are Gods.
Devils are weak, no power except what they get from stupid people.
Allah is a devil, not a God. Allah has no power except what idiots give him by flying airplanes into tall building.

Yo! Concerned the Christian Now Liberated:)

Still no luck with Christians on the revised, edited and updated Crossanized Christianity and trying your luck with Muslims whom you'd think be easier prey?

There is a God
God is Great
Islam is perfect
Convert to Islam

(Blog warning: The above is hazardous for the peace of mind and mental well-being of Crossanized Christians and Catholics of Reality)

Orange Juice/Obfuscating Jihadist and what not.:)

Mohamed Malleck,

Ibrahim Rugova set free from islam before his death and converted to Christianity(Catholicism).

Ayatollah Khomeini legalized nıne years old child girl marriage(is *marriage* correct word,can a child know what it is),is this *human dignity* ?

Two equals one.Is this cosmic order(whatever it means,wasnt there cosmic order before the cult of bedouin)

"I should call the psychiatrist, whose profession is to cure people like you of all phobias and hatreds."

M MOLLECK- You should call a psychiatrist to find a cure for the hatred and violence exhibited by your co-religionists first.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMHCGT9syZ8

And after 50 plus comments, it again comes down to that famous quote:

No one is safe until the koran is "deflawed"!!!!!

Hopefully someday we will have every Muslim and every imam and cleric, shout it from every mosque.

Mohamed Malleck.

You wrote: “The language of the Torah, the Pslams, The Bible, the Quran and of other Holy 'Books' (originally the wisdom was not in the form of 'books!) is cast in parables and imagery because knowledge evolves, and the knowledge relevat to a given age is cast in the imagery of that age, to be interpreted (in Islam through the institutions of 'fiqh', 'sunna', and 'ijtihaad') in the respective imageries of subsequent ages.”

Well put. The most important words in there is “ knowledge evolves”.

Let’s put our knowledge or lack there of into perspective. Most people know that a megabyte (MB) is 1,000,000 bytes of storage. The combined storage of the “sacred texts” of man kind tops out around 17 MB. A Petabyte of storage is 1,000,000,000,000,000 - that’s 15 zeroes. All the printed materials in the world are estimated to be 200 petabytes. That means we have roughly 11.7 billion times more information on our universe (sciences, literature, statistics). I would conclude we do no know everything there is to know about the physical universe and human interaction just amongst ourselves. I then conclude we have an infinitesimal amount of knowledge about God and the realms that lie beyond this one.

If we fail to evolve our understanding about God then we do ourselves a great injustice. Perhaps we find out that God does not exist. Perhaps we find out that he does exist and his promises are infinitely grander than every promise that has ever been made about God.

To think that we know or can even currently understand the “final answer” is to abandon all logic.

If there is a God then he has set the model in place that things evolve and that knowledge evolves. Otherwise when Moses or Jesus or Mohammed or the Buddha or the sun princess of eastern Europe came there would be no need to evolve because we would have had the “final answer”. There would be nothing else to know.

If God does not exist then we are left responsible for our own evolution and we can decide what we want to evolve into. Are we tribes to battle forever in war. Are we all one and we can come to peace. Do we dominate nature or do we live in harmony with it.

The natural model of the world is freedom of choice/expression. When you surrender your freedom to another person you give away your freedom. We must always think for ourselves. In the end your actions are your choice.

If your surrender yourself totally to a belief in Stone God that does change then you fly in contracts to the model he has created which is a world of constant change.

There is nothing wrong with following. There is something dysfunctional about giving away your freedom.

THINK OUT LOUD,

Instead of trying to make you see reason, I should call the psychiatrist, whose profession is to cure people like you of all phobias and hatreds. But, like a good Muslim, I shall be patient and invite you to visit this website :

http://www.muhajabah.com/

"You and Ms. Taylor need to enroll in the same Islam 101 class to gain a better understanding of the basics"

Or maybe they can both sign up for this class:

http://www.hartsem.edu/academic/COURSES/janwntrspr06/et640.htm

INTRODUCTION TO ISLAMIC LAW

This course will provide a critical overview of the history and practice of Islamic law. We begin by examining the origins of Islamic law, the development of the classical schools of jurisprudence and the nature of pre-modern legal institutions, especially the courts and madrasa education. In following classes, we will explore the substance of classical Islamic law, especially in the areas of family, finance and international relations. Next, we will discuss the impact of colonialism and modernity on Islamic legal discourses and institutions and finish with a discussion of THE WAY IN WHICH ISLAMIC LAW IS OBSERVED IN CONTEMPORARY AMERICA.

taught by-

INGRID MATTSON
Professor of Islamic Studies and Christian-Muslim Relations

Amir:

I don't know whom you insult more: ISNA for allegedly "using" women and converts or Ingrid Mattson, a world renowned scholar, whom it seems you consider too stupid to notice she is being duped.

Your post speaks volumes as to your inchoate understanding of shariah, the feasibility of its implementation in the US and even the agenda of ISNA in trying to forward such an objective.

To the best of my knowledge, as someone who researches Muslim organizations in the US, I am not aware of ISNA engaging in any lobbying efforts to implement shariah.

You and Ms. Taylor need to enroll in the same Islam 101 class to gain a better understanding of the basics instead of wondering if people are jealous or corrupt.

USAMA-

Thank you for the link:

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1199280049005&pagename=Zone-English-News/NWELayout

I read it and it spoke to me:

First Comment:

"Send them home in Coffins

By Yar Khan on 2008-01-31 13:54 (GMT)

Pakistan Military is Murtad, and their blood is permissible. I am from the Area and I say send them back to America. Punjabi people have Indian blood and they are easily swayed by force. Even Ullama Iqbal said the same thing about Punjabi people. They don't have tradition of honor, look at hera mendi in punjabistan."

THANKS AGAIN.

send a check or money order?? the IRS makes mistakes, chek again, hack ss#, dob……evil, evil, evil works. Peace asked?? For what evil?? mistrust, envies, rivalry, indignation, strife, seditions, heresies, hatred, backbiting, backstabbing, mocking, name calling, evil, evil, works done. no peace for those who devise wicked against the innocent. respect desired?? for wicked schemes?? the glorious Lord laughs in the face of those who devise wicked schemes, hahaha, no man receives respect for evil works.

Proverbs 6:16-19 {16} “These six things doth the Lord hate, yea, seven are an abomination unto him: {17} A proud look, a lying tongue, and hand that shed innocent blood, {18} An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, {19} A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among the brethren.”

peace asked?? looked for evil, bck/grd Ö nil, not to put away, obedience is better then sacrifice, asked for peace?? for what evil works?? info. on app. how knows?? hacked electronic device, invaded privacy, personal info gone, federal offense, felony. no skills set?? will train bck/grd fits, jealousy…….evil, evil, evil works,

Psalm 27:1-3, {1} The Lord is my light and my salvation, whom shall I fear? The Lord is the strength of my life, of whom shall I be afraid? {2} When the wicked, even mine enmies and my foes, came upon me to eat up my flesh , they stumbled and fell. {3} Though a host should encamp against me, my heart shall not fear, though war should rise against me in this will I be confident.

no one can save, not friends, money, prestige, friends justify wrongs. what is done in secrete back room hacking sick entertainment, is known by the almighty God.

Matthew 6:5-6, {5} “And when thou pray, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, they have their reward. {6} But thou when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou has shut the door, pray to thy Father which is in secrete, and thy Father which seeth in secrete will reward you openly.”

USAMA-

"Please share your thoughts on today's news from Afghanistan:

"A suicide bomber blew himself up inside a mosque in southern Afghanistan on Thursday, killing Helmand province's deputy governor and five other people, officials said."

AND

"How easy it is to try to label and discredit your enemy and refuse to address their valid arguments. There is a WAR AGAINST JIHADISM. Whose side do you argue?"

This is an example of America's "Freedoms" vs. Muslim "jihadism".

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1199280049005&pagename=Zone-English-News/NWELayout

If you read carefully, the American "freedoms' is to manipulate foreign militaries to do American bidding, ecspecially if the foreign military is run by a dictator that depends on 100s of millions in American aid.

Another example is American "freedom" to infiltrate sovereign airspace with unmanned drones and "take out terrorist targets", or bomb from 20,000 feet killing women and children and who knows who else. Not to mention the carte blanche permission by said Muslim dictators for American special forces to clandestinely infiltrate foreign lands and engage in all kinds of military actions: bombings, extraordinary renditions, assasinations, espionage, etc. to protect "American freedom".

But again, what is at stake?
9/11/01, almost all of Pakistan was sympathetic to America for the attack it suffered. Now, nearly 70% of Pakistan favors Al Qaeda over George Bush. That's more anti-America than it is pro-Al Qaida. Is it because Muslims are just "evil"?

Or is it because America talks one game and walks another, allying with and propping up dictators to manipulate foreign nations until their is serious blowback? Did you know the dictator

Hosni Mubarak, a dear American friend, has ruled Egypt by emergency martial law for almost 25 years and is the 3rd longest ruler of Egypt going back to the Pharoahic era?

Usama says:

"you simply pasted a commentary by George Weigel in Newsweek."

Well- of course I did- I gave the link..

And thank you for sharing your skewed mindset. Please share your thoughts on today's news from Afghanistan:

"A suicide bomber blew himself up inside a mosque in southern Afghanistan on Thursday, killing Helmand province's deputy governor and five other people, officials said.

The bomber struck while people were praying inside the mosque in the provincial capital of Lashkar Gah, provincial police chief Mohammad Hussein Andiwal said.

Helmand's deputy governor, Pir Mohammad, was killed in the blast, said Nisar Ahmad, a provincial health official.

The blast killed five other people and wounded 18 others, seven seriously, Andiwal said."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/31/AR2008013100426.html

And please Usama, take a look at the comments after the WaPo article I posted:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/105583/output/comments

How easy it is to try to label and discredit your enemy and refuse to address their valid arguments. There is a WAR AGAINST JIHADISM. Whose side do you argue?

Think out loud, you simply pasted a commentary by George Weigel in Newsweek.

George Weigel is a signatory of the Statement of Principles of the Project for a New American Century (PNAC), the think tank which gave America the invasion and occupation of Iraq. Other signatories include: Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Gary Bauer, and more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century#Persons_associated_with_the_PNAC

The PNAC rents its office space from within AEI. No lie. And the founders of PNAC include Bill Kristol who also co-founded The Weekly Standard, the Rupert Murdoch funded Neo Con Washington commentary.

So thank you for connecting your propaganda about 'jihadism vs. freedom' to the Neo Conservative American imperialism and the AEI. [How exactly do you make an entire "century" American?]

"There is a great Islamic Revival coming that will be an immense improvement of the values of The Enlightenment."

M MOLLECK- You are referring to the progressive moderate Muslims actively leading THE WAR AGAINST JIHADISM.. RIGHT?

"What kind of campaign is this? Six-plus years after 9/11; while the Taliban attempts an Afghanistan comeback; as Islamist terrorists cause mayhem in Algeria and occupy huge swaths of tribal Pakistan; despite "United 93" and "The Kite Runner," a library-full of books, presidential commissions, congressional hearings, and four election cycles—despite all of that, a strange, Victorian reticence about naming the enemy in the contest for the human future in which we are engaged befogs this political season.

Such reticence is an obstacle to victory in a war we cannot avoid and in which we must prevail. For if there is one thing certain in this season of great uncertainties, it is that the war against jihadism will be staring the next president of the United States in the face at high noon on Inauguration Day, 2009.

That is what we are fighting: jihadism, the religiously inspired ideology which teaches that it is every Muslim's duty to use any means necessary to compel the world's submission to Islam. That most of the world's Muslims do not accept this definition of the demands of their faith is true—and beside the point. The jihadists believe this. That is why they are the enemy of their fellow Muslims and the rest of the world. For decades, an internal Islamic civil war, born of Islam's difficult encounter with modernity, has been fought over such key modern political ideas as religious toleration and the separation of religious and political authority in a just state. That intra-Islamic struggle now engages the rest of humanity. To ignore this, to imagine it's all George W. Bush's fault, or to misrepresent it because of a prudish reluctance to discuss religion in public, is to repeat the mistakes the advocates of appeasement made in the 1930s.

In the mid-twentieth century, it was important to understand the ideas that fed the totalitarian passions of fascism, Nazism and communism. It is just as important today to understand the ideas of such progenitors of jihadist ideology as the Egyptian scholar-activists Hassan al-Banna (1906–1949) and Sayyid Qutb (1903–1966). Why? Because the power of ideas that can call men and women to make great sacrifices can only be trumped by the power of more compelling ideas that summon forth nobler sacrifices. Yet while our presidential candidates have endlessly debated who-was-right-or-wrong-and-when about Iraq, the imperative of effective U.S. public diplomacy—of making the argument for freedom and decency effectively around the world—has gone largely unremarked. That failure reflects a reluctance to grasp the nature of this new kind of struggle.

This is a war of ideas, pitting two different notions of the good society against each other. The jihadist vision claims the sanction of God. The western vision of the free society, in which civility involves engaging differences with respect, has both religious and philosophical roots. Some Americans have lost touch with the deepest cultural sources of the nation's commitments to religious freedom, tolerance and democratic persuasion, thinking of these good things as mere pragmatic arrangements. But if the United States can't explain to the world why religious freedom, civility, tolerance and democratic persuasion are morally superior to coercion in religious and political matters, then America stands disarmed before those who believe it their duty to impose a starkly different view of the good society on us.

The war against jihadism is being contested on many fronts simultaneously. There is a military front, which involves Afghanistan and Iraq but also includes such unlikely places as the Caribbean, Mali and the Philippines. There is an intelligence front, an economic front, an energy front and a homeland-security front. Such a complex war, which could last a generation or more, cannot be the prerogative or burden of one political party. The war against jihadism must be owned by both political parties. Thus one measure of any presidential candidate's seriousness is this: can he or she build a bipartisan coalition capable of sustaining the long-haul struggle required to defeat jihadist nihilism?

The landscape is indeed forbidding. Still, there is some good news: the war against jihadism can lead to cultural and political renewal in America. Making compelling arguments in favor of the free society reconnects us with the great ideas on which our liberties rest. Putting faith and reason into conversation strengthens the unity of our diverse society. Defending religious freedom, and supporting Muslim reformers who seek an Islamic case for tolerance and pluralism, reminds us that American civil society is built on truths about the dignity of human life. Energy policies that de-fund jihadism by reducing our reliance on petroleum as a transportation fuel can ignite entrepreneurial energies, revitalize the American auto industry, and help the environment. Rational homeland security policies can make us safer and less beholden to political correctness.

The jihadist merchants of death must be defeated morally as well as militarily. Doing so offers the American people the opportunity for national self-renewal and the chance to defend the cause of human dignity throughout the world. The stakes—the future of freedom—are very high indeed. It's past time for those who would lead us to acknowledge that."

http://www.newsweek.com/id/105583

I am a white American, who is a professor at a state university. A little over three years ago I had the opportunity to work in the Middle East. At that time I was very active in my Christian Church and had the intention of sharing my beliefs with the students I was teaching in the Middle East. Being fair, I agreed to study Islam if they studied Christianity. However, over time and after a lot of study and prayer I converted to Islam.

However, I have struggled in the US finding my "niche" in the Islamic mosques. Most of the people and leaders are Palistinians, Pakistanis, or from other nations and they teach a different form of Islam that I learned. One Iman during the khotba told the congregation that we should treat non-Muslims "harshly." They also have little support for US youth. My wife and children remain Christians and I could not see them receiving any social support to convert.

I am interested in learning more about your work. This change has been a continual struggle for me, as my family disapproves strongly. However, I am 54 and have a doctoral degree from one of the US's finest universities, so I am not an immature novice. I would like to contribute more, but am still struggling.

Thank you

USAMA,

Very well said, brother.

I note that you rightly say " Islam Vs. West manichean conflict".

Not all 'westerners' are antagonistic to Islam. And for Muslims, there is one entity -- humanity as the brotherhood of men of good will. As such the message of Islam is addressed to the whole of humanity.

And, those who want to be in harmony with the cosmic order of things will enthusiastically embrace the message of peace of Islam. The Smart Alecs who want to manipulate for their evil designs will be defeated as they already ARE being defeated.

I read that a lot of code words in Ms Taylor's piece are meant to win over supporters from the American masses.
But as Ms Taylor may want to promote compassion for others, and that is a good thing, she should realize that she will likely be used by the least compassionate, most hypocritical, most diabolical, most powerful forces in the world.

Case in point, Hirsi Ali is just a misguided apostate from Islam. But she is painted as a hero and an icon by the Neo Con establishment in America which seeks to break down the Muslim world and exploit its resources for their own profit. Ali is funded by the American Enterprise Institute. The Board of Trustees of AEI include former CEOs of ExxonMobil, CIGNA, CEO of American Express, and more. All 3 of these corporations represent industries that seek to privatize their respective industries (energy, health care, finance), deregulate them, and globalize their efforts. From their perspective, any IDEA that calls for nationalize energy resources, universal health care, and interest-free, government controlled finance, are enemies and obsticals to their greed. Islam calls for all 3: that natural energy resources belong to the people and should be maintained by the govt, that health care is a human right which all people should have, and financing should NOT only be interest-free, but should be highly regulated and controlled by the government, not by private industry.

In the Muslim world today, these Islamic Concepts are well known and are defended by conservative, traditional Muslims and those called "fundamentalists and extremists" by the West. To the AEI and their Neo Con "cabal" (Colin Powell's description of them), they see the Muslim world with markets worth trillions of dollars waiting for THEM and only "fundamentalist Islam" stands in their way.

So that's another perspective on the Islam Vs. West manichean conflict. And if you doubt this, consider that Paul Bremer, former ruler of Iraq and US administrator (and disciple of Milton Friedman's Chicago School of liberal capitalism), ordered the privization of the Iraqi energy industry as one of his last executive orders. The incoming Iraqi Prime Minister Allawi rejected it. But since then, the American oil lobby has been tempting the Iraqi Parliement to do the very same privatization as Bremer attempted. And according to Neo Cons and the AEI itself, Iran is next on the list of Muslim nations to invade.

So lower that Progressive to a little 'p', Ms Taylor, before you find yourself a pawn of the worldwide cabal violently thirsting to exploit the world for profit and greed.

Here's a good place to post my five questions about Islam, since I've never gotten an answer.

What would the most authoritative voices of Islam say in answer to the five questions posed below. That is, don't give me your personal viewpoint. I want you to tell us what the most authoritative voices of orthodox Islam would say.

Here are the questions:
1.Does Islam allow for the separation of church and state?
2.Does Islam allow for the full legal equality of women?
3.Does Islam allow for religious pluralism? For example, if a Muslim male married a Christian female, would the husband and wife be able to say to their children, “We will attend the mosque on Friday and the church on Sunday and consider ourselves a bi-religious family. When each of you is 18 years old, you will be free to choose. You can continue our bilateral approach; or, you can choose one religion over the other; or, you can choose another religion altogether.”
4.What does Islam say (according to the above authoritative voices) should be the fate of heretics? For example, if a member of the Egyptian soccer team got up tomorrow morning and announced he was converting from Islam to Christianity and changing his name from Mohammad Ali to Cassius Clay, what do the authoritative voices of Islam say should be his fate?
5.Does Islam allow for the publication of a scholarly book alleging that Mohammad was a fraud?

(Alternatively, instead of posing the questions to the authoritative voices of Islam, you might ask your Muslim interlocutor to imagine the question was, “What would Islamic textbooks used in the teaching of Muslim students in America say in answer to the following questions?”)

The answers to these questions will reveal whether there is some debate among Muslims over the future of their religion. Or whether even orthodox Islam can be accommodated to a Western liberal, pluralistic society.

Brother ASIM,

Thanks, brother. May Allah Subhaana-wata'ala bless you and all those who are dear to you.

Mohamed MALLECK,
Look brother,Why do you ever bother with the likes of this cncrnd xtian-the only thing that bothers me about him is the wasted space he takes-otherwise he has no substance except recycled empty talk.

Pam- Please sit down and take a deep breath.

Its 2008 and we don't know the age of the sun.

It takes as much faith to believe in a creationist's view as it takes to believe the contents of your quotes and link.

Read your quote:

"The age of the Sun is inferred from the ages of the oldest meteorites. Although, the age is commonly quoted as being 4.6 Gyr or 4.7 Gyr, Guenther (1989) has recently rederived the age using more current information and obtains 4.49±0.04 Gyr. Guenther notes that the latest determinations of the ages of the oldest meteorites (see discussion by Tilton 1988) sets the age of meteoritic condensation at 4.56 Gyr which revises his earlier age estimate. The new best estimate of the Sun's age is now 4.52±0.04 Gyr."

It screams I think but I'm guessing and I don't know.

Even the authors of your link agree: "One complication of checking the Solar Model with our real Sun is the quantity of helium: the "helium abundance." That is rather difficult to obtain."

No one knows the answer yet.

Malleck, Malleck, Malleck,

Before getting into the fuzzy, "Hinduistic" thinking of 'Ultimate Consciousness', one faces the historic reality of Islam i.e.

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels"/"pretty thingies" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds these acts of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Anna M:

I cannot bring myself to infer that "There are no gods. THAT makes sense" from the couple of paragraphs you quoted of Einstein.

I inferred that he believed that one cannot determine for certainty whether or not there are gods.

I would like to point out that you took the liberty of labeling his statement as a "Statement against God," when in fact one cannot conclude that it is such.

SAMI QURESHI,

Do yourself a favour and visit http://www.salaam.co.uk/knowledge and Qantara.de.

WHITBY,

What you can do in that case is stop the world and get off.

Anna M,

Signing 'With due respect' won'y hide either your stubbornness not to try to understand, nor your ignorance, nor your hatred couched in polite terms.

You write " ... some dude in the sky somewhere who listens to your prayers and looks out for you. "

WHO spoke of 'dude in the sky'?

As a scientist, I am speaking of 'Ultimate Consciousness'. Now, do you have an idea what a first attempt at explaining 'consciousness' -- leave alone 'Ultimate Consciousness' --- mightinvolve? It would require you to have all the conepts in Douglas Hoffstadter's three books: "Godel Escher, Bach", "Meta magical Themas", and "The Mind's I"; in Roger Penrose's books : "The Emperor's New Mind" and "The Road to Ultimate Reality"; in Friedman's book "How Brains Make Up Their Minds"; in the works of Daniel Dennett; in the cutting-edge research reports made accessible to the generalpublic at sites like edge.org, metanexus.net, and the website of the Santa Fe institute. Even then, you will have had only a first approximation of what a rigorous, scientifically-based attempt at explaining consciosness is.

The anthropib and anthropomorphic concept of God as s 'dude in the sky' is a parable that has served humanity well to rein in his more destructive brutal-force self-preservation instincts that, up to this day, make the Enron-type 'smartest guys in the room' adopt a policy of pre-emptive strike as the best defence.

Yep, we ought to have graduated from the 'dude in the sky' type of description of the deity, but ry to explain important scientific concepts like 'the knowable' and "the unknowable', 'the known knowns', 'the known unknowns', 'the unknown unknowns' to warmongers, and the best they do is, as Dick Cheney and Rumsfeld did before invading Iraq and landing the poor American and Iraqi peoples where they are, ridicule you.

Finally, for your guidance, a good 'unknown knowable' is : Does the decimal expansion of pi include a succession of seven 7's? A good 'known unknowable' is : 'What is Absolute Nothing?" This concept is unknowable because, to even start to grasp Absolute Nothing, there must be consciousness, and consciousness is already something. Absolute Nothing is not, for that fact, an Absolute Contradiction or Paradox, for most scientists believe that Absolute Nothing is exactly the 'singularity' that started the Big Bang!

What I gathered from Pamela's article was her stress to notify the medieval thoughts and rituals of other religions that penetrated into Islam by the Ulema of that period who explained the doctrines of Islam with their back grounds. Unfortunately,the Islamic scholarship sticked to those medieval thoughts and no further attempts were made to make further progress in this direction. Islam is destined for all ages to come and for all human beings. I think Pamela desires to know the meanings of the teachings of Islam which could be workable beyond the boundaries of the Twenty-First century.

More on the age of the Sun from Stanford:
http://solar-center.stanford.edu/FAQ/Qage.html

Anonymous's post of January 30 at 10:13 PM is full of creationist nonsense.

It takes 4 hydrogen atoms to produce 1 helium atom, and it is not possible to measure helium content in the Sun.

From SMU's Web site:

"The age of the Sun is inferred from the ages of the oldest meteorites. Although, the age is commonly quoted as being 4.6 Gyr or 4.7 Gyr, Guenther (1989) has recently rederived the age using more current information and obtains 4.49±0.04 Gyr. Guenther notes that the latest determinations of the ages of the oldest meteorites (see discussion by Tilton 1988) sets the age of meteoritic condensation at 4.56 Gyr which revises his earlier age estimate. The new best estimate of the Sun's age is now 4.52±0.04 Gyr.

The abundances of most of the elements can be directly determined from the photospheric spectrum of the Sun. Although, the abundance measurements represents the surface abundances of the Sun and not the interior abundances, it is assumed that these abundances are identical to the abundance of the elements in the zero age model (with the exception of Li and Be which are affected by nuclear burning and diffusion). The inert gases helium, neon, and argon are not visible in the photospheric spectrum hence their abundances must be inferred. Neon and argon abundances are adopted from their measured abundances in the solar corona, solar winds, nebula, and hot stars (Meyer 1979). Helium, as the second most abundant element in the Sun, is left as a free parameter of the standard solar model. Because the luminosity of a stellar model is very sensitive to the mean molecular weight (L proportional to µ^7.5) the abundance of helium is adjusted to produce a solar model with the Sun's luminosity."

Saeed

Most know that ISNA just uses converts and women for puppets. Besides the Brotherhood has been found out and busted. who wants a bunch of liars for leaders.

Pamela, you are amongst the best of our rising leaders. Maybe this Saeed is much like the jealous Sayyid S. who can't stand to see his castle of cover-up begin to fall to the ground.

ISNA followers are shariah promoters who exploit democracy, not advocate it. Let the truth be known.

Mohamed Mallek.

You know what scares me about Muslims. They make statements like this;

"Oh, no, Pamela. Don’t sell us short. There is a great Islamic Revival coming that will be an immense improvement of the values of The Enlightenment."

Oh NO!! I don't want to be around to see it. ANYTHING but that! AAAAGGGGGHHHHhhhh...

And this...

A statement against God. by Albert Einstein.

"A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate,of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty,which are only accessible to our reason in their their most elementary forms...it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude;in this sense,and in this alone,I am a deeply religious man.
I cannot conceive of a god who rewards and punishes his creatures,or has a will of the type of which we are conscious in ourselves.An individual who should survive his physical death is also beyond my comprehension,nor do I wish it otherwise;
such notions are for the fears or absurd egoism of feeble souls".
Albert Einstein
"The World as I see it"
page 45

There are no gods. THAT makes sense.

B.Gone;

One of your better posts,full of common sense,and a great read.

Mr Mallek,

Despite everything, it simply comes down to the fact that as far as we know there is no supernatural world and no gods.

Despite your knowledge of this and that,you make the enormous leap from reality to magic,by actually believing,without a scrap of evidence,that there's some dude in the sky somewhere who listens to your prayers and looks out for you.
As a normal un-indoctrinated individual this all seems totally preposterous to me,and I think that Albert Einstein makes much more sense when he writes;

"About God, I cannot accept any concept based on the authority of the Church. As long as I can remember, I have resented mass indocrination. I do not believe in the fear of life, in the fear of death, in blind faith. I cannot prove to you that there is no personal God, but if I were to speak of him, I would be a liar. I do not believe in the God of theology who rewards good and punishes evil. My God created laws that take care of that. His universe is not ruled by wishful thinking, but by immutable laws."

—W. Hermanns, Einstein and the Poet—In Search of the Cosmic Man (Branden Press, Brookline Village, Mass., 1983), p.132, quoted in Jammer, p.123.

Respectfully, Anna M.

DT,

Look at my comments and those of Christian the Concerned. I am Muslim; he is Christian. Do you need more proof.

But if you are like Mike Gerson who hails George Bush as the Compassionate Supreme till the end, well, even if I call the shrink, he won't come.

He'll say that your delusion is incurable.

Mohamed MALLECK, Swift Current, Canada:

What is your source of knowledge of what God wants? Have you spoken to God? Did God speak back? What does God look like? What does God's voice sound like. What are the distinguishing characteristics of God?

I need to know all that so in case a supernatural being speaks to me I'll be able to say IT is God.

The evidence, http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul goes unchallenged by Bible thumpers because it's just what the Bible says. As you already know they're all blasphemers destined for hell. But how about Allah? Same God?

The supernatural being Moses made the deal with and that was the father of Jesus was a Devil named Lucifer that only wanted to be God. It's a no brainer to see that. The thing was so puny, sissified even that IT couldn't even get a few people from one place to another without help from trickery and people. All God needs to do is will it and it's done.

Is Allah any more powerful than the being Moses made his deal with to become a really important person, most important person that ever lived? How did Muhammad verify that he wasn't dealing with a Devil when he did a similar thing to Moses? Isn't Allah like Jehovah puny, too weak to knock down a couple of buildings? That's strong evidence the Quar'an is the word of Devil too like the Torah and the Bible. Book of Mormon -another conversation with supernatural beings, God or Devil?

Of course those sacred scriptures could just be hoaxes. Don't you think it's a bit fool hearty to say God is behind them when the God they tout is sickly, puny and even sissified?

What does the real God have to say about that, calling Devil Allah? Yes, Devil will take you to high plateaus of enlightenment and make you feel real good now. But what about later, after this is all over? How smart is it to make all those sacrifices even one's life only to find out IT wasn't Allah at all but a Devil? Better give Allah a second look. You could have been taught lies that will lead you straight to hell.

I hope you're not the teacher. Think how the real Allah, the almighty, all powerful God will take IT's children being led to Devil. Verify what you teach before declaring it to be the word of the real Allah. That's the smart thing to do. The soul you save might be your own.

WHAT?:
Bgone:

Att:
hoax? aka
WHAT? aka
BGONE aka

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul

ATT: BGONE ; You are Going To Be Investigated by the I.R.S. for Commiting Internet Fraud & bilking unsuspecting Donors to your Fraudulant Site!

Stop Or you will will Pereish!

Mohamed MALLECK, Swift Current, Canada,

Read the comments again more carefully. The comments about the koran not being the word of god, were made by one Jay Smith at http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/quran9tc.htm . You might want to send him some words of "allah wisdom".

"...the characteristics of a good Muslim, including humility and self-control, commitment to consultative government, and dedication to compassion...and a peaceful society in which all can prosper."

Are you kidding us? How about these characteristics:

- encouragement of extreme violence and murder
- subjugation, humiliation and domination of women
- totalitarian governments and world domination
- extreme racism against all non-Arabs
- intolerance in every area and facet of life

Those are the real tenets and goals of Islam, not all this "peace and love" crap. It's about time someone spoke and up called it what it is.

More mumbo jumbo from aforementioned “biblestudymanuals”:

One thing we think we know about the sun is that it shines by converting hydrogen to helium. Hence, the helium content of the sun is dependent upon how long the sun has been shining. If we were to build a creationist model of the sun, one of the first things we would build into our model would be a low helium content based on the belief that the sun has been shining only thousands of years rather than billions of years.

To impose a five-billion-year evolution model upon a sun that *has been shining only thousands of years* is to invite a massive error.
The astronomers also proposed that nuclear reactions are not responsible for energy generation in the Sun.

The Sun simply does not seem to have a large core that is very dense and has the high temperature that can sustain hydrogen nuclear burning. In other words, the Sun definitely does not show the characteristics of a multi billion-year-old star, but instead shows the characteristics of an exceedingly young star.

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated,

I have encountered you on these blogs countless times. contless times I have told you: "If you value your hatred so much, be my guest". "If you need psychiatric help, I can phone a shrink for you". But if you need to understand Islam, spirituality, or religion in general. I ca help.

Now, even a child of 5 years would tell you that the 'inconsistencies' of the Holy Quran you point out are inconsistencies only because you have a stupid literal reading of the text.

One example: thou shalt not kill. That is a 'public good' that is enjoined by all religions and by all manner of 'secular' morality. And, yet, in given circumstances, one has no choice but to kill. Willima Blake asks "Tiger, Tiger, Did the same God that created the lamb also create thee?" And William Blake himself provides the answer in other places. As does The Holy Quran, the Bible, the Torah, John Rawls' Theory of Justice, Ted Honderich's formaulation of 'consequentialist morality' etc.

But, if you are a total ignoramus who does not even know what I am talking about, you will see a contradiction in the injunction "Thou Shalt Not Kill" and the fact that killing is a daily reality of life.

The Ultimate Consciousness (i.e. Allah Subhaana-Wata'ala) reveals Himself to mankind gradualy as biological evolution takes place, as new knowledge becomes known to His evolving creation (who knows, there is much speculation among the most prominenet scientists these days that we are not the only itelligent life in the Universe; maybe other ETIs have a better grasp -- a better iteration using a more effective algorithm than any known to us intelligent beings of Planet Earth -- of what Ultimate Consciousness -- i.e. God -- is?).

How aboutif you try to think again instead of spewing out your venom, BGONE?

I salute you Pamela Taylor and all others sincerely seeking God and spiritual growth. However, I would like to point out that extreme Christain leaders are equally at fault.

How can we urge Muslim leaders, such as the kings of Jordan and Morocco, to lead in a process of Islamic moderation if Christians such as myself let our own leaders off the hook.

Many evangelicals embrace war and death instead of peace. Indeed, in one of the churches that I attend they celebrated the falling of Saddam's statue in Baghdad as if the prophecies of the bible's book of Revelations were on the verge of coming true.

Christians are too focused on heaven and hell, life or death. But many theologians and believers without degrees believe that their is support in scripture for immortality in the afterlife; perhaps different "levels." In other words, a more complicated heaven.

These discussions are usually thwarted in many congregations with charge of apostasy. And, of course, we have had our own schisms and internal wars.

As you see, Muslims and Christians have their work cut out for them.

Gee, Pamela. The last time I checked, ISNA has a President name INGRID MATTSON, who is female, AND is a non-immigrant Muslim.

Also, Ahmed Yassin is not only dead, he was never considered a "leader" by more than an extremely small sliver of the entire Muslim world. The same status applies to Bin Laden as well.

Perhaps if you could gain an accurate grasp of the most rudimentary of facts, you could bolster your claim for leadership. You do yourself and your organization little good demonstrating a superficial understanding of the Muslim landscape.

I only wish a very particular gentleman here found other ways and other places to advertize his idiocy.
The greatness of Islam will neither be diminished nor tarnished by, one who is consumed by hate, and whom there is no difference between what comes out of his mouth and what exits the rear end of a snake,.

Mohamed MALLECK, Swift Current, Canada,

You noted:

"Oh, no, Pamela. Don’t sell us short. There is a great Islamic Revival coming that will be an immense improvement of the values of The Enlightenment."

How is the following immense improvement of the values of Enlightment?

http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/quran9tc.htm

"In conclusion, while we can concede that the Qur'an is a fascinating book to study, it simply cannot maintain its status as the final Word of God it claims to be. The declaration of textual perfection by the Muslims simply do not stand up to any critical analysis of their content.

As we have seen, the Qur'an carries numerous inconsistencies with the former scriptures, while its narratives and stories help to discredit its claim to be the true Word of God. Popular sentiment and unquestioning fanatical devotion by Muslims are simply not adequate as a proof for the Qur'an's authenticity. When we take a sober analysis of the sources of the Qur'an, we find conclusive evidence that the confidence of the Muslims for their scripture is simply unfounded.
It stands to reason that those whose responsibility it was to compile a "holy book" which could compete with the existing scriptures, would naturally turn to the myths and legends of the surrounding civilizations and borrow many of their stories.

Due to the predominance of oral tradition in the 7th-9th centuries one can understand how many of the stories became embellished and distorted over time. It is these corrupted stories that we find all through the Qur'an, many of which were adapted from 2nd century Talmudic literature, which was popular amongst the Jews of that area. Consequently it is the glaring similarities which we find between the Qur'an and these errant sources which nullifies the claim that the Qur'an could hope to be the true Word of God. "

That looks a lot like:

Mohammed was an illiterate, lusting, greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

BGONE,

You write: "...to where are the flocks being led? No one wants to answer that question".

You did not ask ME. did you?

To where? To Ultimate Consciousness, that's where.

God is not anthropomorphic nor anthropic, buster!

If you assume that, YOU are the ignorant, not the believer.

Tha language of the Torah, the Pslams, The Bible, the Quran and of other Holy 'Books' (originally the wisdom was not in the form of 'books!) is cast in parables and imagery because knowledge evolves, and the knowledge relevat to a given age is cast in the imagery of that age, to be interpreted (in Islam through the institutions of 'fiqh', 'sunna', and 'ijtihaad') in the respective imageries of subsequent ages.

Miss Pamela said, "The Prophet Muhammad taught"

The key word is taught.

People are ignorant. That's why we have institutions of learning, schools isn't it? Don't students "assume" the teacher knows? Does the teacher really know? You've got a lot bet on what Muhammad taught haven't you? What if he's wrong, in error, leading you astray with his teachings? Ever think of that?

Ignorance and faith have all that in common. Have what in common? But of course, the "assumption" that the teacher knows. You "assume" Muhammad knew.

Ministers of the three great faiths are imitators of either Moses, Jesus or Muhammad. Moses said, "I spoke to God and God said..." Muhammad said, "I spoke to God and God said..." That's the source of all faith, a man speaking to God and God said... Notice the man for it is the man in whom all faith resides and not really in Allah[God]. And that man is always the teacher who educates the ignorant about what Allah[God] wants.

Religion is the simple case of men leading flocks of people. I have a little fun asking the obvious question - to where are the flocks being led? No one wants to answer that question for the teacher has said heaven and threatened them with hell for failing to have "faith." Keep in mind what your faith is really in, a man who spoke to Allah.

Is "faith" in Allah? I don't see how we can ever say that, faith is in Allah, for nowhere in the scheme is God the teacher, like the recently departed teachers, the ones on whom all faith rested.

You know about http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul already I'm sure. No one has managed a rebuff of that reading of sacred scriptures. Weren't Muhammad and Moses equals, teachers? And through their teachings they lead. Today, they have many imitators, Ayatollahs. Does that title mean teacher? Muslims religion learn for Ayatollahs, like Moses led the Israelites their leaders?

Where are these men in whom all faith rests actually leading their flocks? The good shepherd gets his flock to the fleecing if they're lucky and the slaughter house if they're not. Didn't Moses do a lot better after he stopped herding sheep and took up herding people - right after he had a conversation with a God, a supernatural being that lives in fire of the variety found only in hell? Sheep, people same same, ignorant.

The teacher is dead - long live the teacher.

Pamela,

I don't know what you have against Sheikh Ahmad Yassin and ISNA. But, as somebody who, in 1970, came to Canada to pursue University studies from and including undergrad up to the doctoral level, and who has brushed shoulders with Ahmad Sakr and Said Ramadan and Gamal Badawi and countless African Americans, and has, with his own hands organised the group of students who helped collect he funds to build our mosque in Dartmouth, NS and leveled the ground and laid the topsoil and paited the mosque and taught the children Islamic studeis over at least three yesrs, and then gone back to his country and then, thanks to the vicissitudes of life, has lived the Iranian revolution, I demand an apology.

Yes, there are many, many Muslims who exhibit many of the characteristics that the Prophet Muhammad Mustapha (p.b.u.h.) has set. Examples – Ahmad Kathrada of South Africa, in every way as eminent a freedom fighter as Nelson Mandela except more modest and too family-oriented to take up a public role that involves more glamorous ceremonies than suffering in the name of defence of human dignity; Ismail Muhammad, first Chief Justice of post-apartheid South Africa, an icon whose greatness surpasses that of Mandela and Ahmad Kathrada; Ibrahim Rugova, named the Gandhi of the Balkans; Marwan Barghouti, named by Time Magazine as the Gandhi of the Middle East; Malcolm X; Dr Abubakar Asvat of South Africa; Ali Shariati, the Ayatollah Khomeini, Muhammad Khatami, Alassane Ouattara of Cote d’Ivoire etc.

Oh, no, Pamela. Don’t sell us short. There is a great Islamic Revival coming that will be an immense improvement of the values of The Enlightenment.

Good article Ms. Taylor. I wish you could go further into detail but the time and space is probably limited. I appreciate your calm approach and emphasis on universal appeal.

Ms. Taylor:
You said:
“Our reading of the Qur'an and/or Hadith lead us to a value system that focuses less on right and wrong, on Heaven and Hell, and more on developing the good characteristics a Muslim is supposed to engender and creating a society of compassion, equality, peacefulness, with human and civil rights for all, including freedom of conscience and freedom of expression”.
Where in the Hadith or Quran it teaches about those lofty values that you mention above? It does say that “the believers (meaning Muslims) are brothers“, but how about the rest of us? How about the Koranic laws towards women and minorities? Freedom of speech in Islam? This is ridiculous. In today's’ news an Afghani reporter was condemned to death by the Afghani Parliament for saying something about Islam that Muslims did not like. Do you really blame Wafa Sultan and Hirsi Ali and millions like them who are bolting out of that cult?
The problem my dear lady is not the fault of the leaders of Muslim nations. It is in the body and soul of the Muslim faith. The rulers are no more than a reflection of the societies they grew up in, which in Muslim societies are the product of an all-pervasive Muslim cultures based mostly on the Quran and Hadith.

Ahmed Yasin is dead, btw.

This was a good piece. I appreciate that it Taylor didn't castigate those who have a different view of Islam. She noted some of their shortcomings, but also highlighted shared values. This is important.

But let's be a bit more honest. Yes, the mainstream organizations have failed. But haven't the so-called progressive organizations also? They overstretched. They failed to reach out to the majority of American Muslims, instead remain limited to an often strange fringe. They became more concerned with polemics and PR, rather than institution building. Seems like progressives have a long way to go too.

I don't know all that much about Islam but from what I understand the people choose their leaders, as this writer states. It seems to me that the problem she has with the leaders chosen is that she does not like them. The American people elect presidents but this does not mean we have to like them and we cannot condemn them because we do not like the way they act. I expect a more intellectual piece from a woman who has the credential she has.

yes, concerned christian... people manipulate religion. The important thing to highlight is the people who are really doing the thinking (the ijtihad-indep reasoning)...in religions around the world. The people that are highlighting the justice common to all faiths. The beauty and kindness present in all faiths. Every faith has its mystics, its moderates and its terrorists. Has been that way since the beginning of time.

McCAINE Failed "The TRUTH (opposite of MYTH) METER!"

Washington is Broken!

DOWN with McCAIN, Same Sneaky Guy Different Chair!

DOWN with McCAIN, What a SHAME!

The Prophet and the Archbishop were good and gracious men but were they leaders? Leaders educate and both failed in that regard. We "pew sitters" should not need to search for contemporary historic reviews of our religions. This information should appear in our Sunday bulletins, posted on our bulletin boards and discussed from the pulpits.

This is what should have presented but was and is not being promulgated as required by our religious leadership:

A synopsis of the flaws in the founders and foundations of the major religions (for those that have not seen them before or did not take the time to look):

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character as was Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.
http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

3. Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven,warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels"/"pretty thingies" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds these acts of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

4. Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."
The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."
"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life. e.g. Buddha by one legend was supposedly talking when he came out of his mother's womb.

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.

If we want to see strong Muslim ideational leadership, to counter the ideologies of the Yassins and the bin Ladens, we need only look to Asia. There, many scholars and NGO leaders are throwing open the gates of ijtihad, fighting against those who would slam it shut. People like Iran's Abdolkarim Soroush; Malaysia's Anwar Ibrahim and Dr. Zainah Anwar; Indonesia's Azyumardi Azra and Ulil Abshar Abdallah. Many of these men and women are young leaders. Some are middle-aged with great life and accomplishment left in them. They are the future. We need to highlight these men and women. We should study their work and their writings. We should support them.

DOWN with McCAIN,

DOWN with McCAIN,

DOWN with McCAIN, What a SHAME!