Islam and the Destiny of Man

Extract from: “The Truth and the Light Regarding the Christian and Islam Faiths”, by Ivan Erickson, author of the spiritual novel, “Song of the Storm Winds”, available via direct links to amazon.com on my website, http://www.ivan-erickson.com - Other discourses are also available for viewing and comments on my site.
I have in the past sent email attachments on this discourse, requesting a reply, to Ann Holmes Redding, Pamela K. Taylor, Imam W. Deen Mohammed, and to Aman Amir Abdul-Matin, and have not as yet received a reply regarding my premises, as of August 15, 2008. I can only conclude that these beloved people have found the words of the One True God to be irrefutable!
The following is the second of six total premises from the above discourse, “The Truth and the Light Regarding the Christian and Islam Faiths”, of which the rational person will find irrefutable. Please know that I love all people of all faiths and ethnicities of whom God loves, and this is the reason why I continuously toil to bring the Truth and the Light to all those who are seeking:
“The second premise to address is the Islam belief that Jesus Christ was only a prophet – that He was not deity or the only Son of God. In 1 John, 2:18-23 we read: “Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that the antichrist was coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. Thus we know this is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number. But you have the anointing that comes from the holy one, and you all have knowledge. I write to you not because you do not know the truth but because you do, and because every lie is alien to the truth. Who is the liar? Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Whoever denies the Father and the Son, this is the antichrist. No one who denies the Son has the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.”i In 1 John 4, 1-3 we read: “Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh belongs to God, and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus does not belong to God. This is the spirit of the antichrist that, as you heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world.”ii
Also, Jesus Christ professed many times in the Gospel that He was the Messiah, the only Son of God the Father. If the Islam faithful sincerely believes that Jesus was a prophet, how can they at the same time not believe that He was God’s Son? – For a prophet is one who speaks the Truth for God, you see”. May the One True God Who Lives bless each of you, always.

Extract from: “The Truth and the Light Regarding the Christian and Islam Faiths”, by Ivan Erickson, author of the spiritual novel, “Song of the Storm Winds”, available via direct links to amazon.com on my website, http://www.ivan-erickson.com - Other discourses are also available for viewing and comments on my site.
I have in the past sent email attachments on this discourse, requesting a reply, to Ann Holmes Redding, Pamela K. Taylor, Iman W. Deen Mohammed, and to Aman Amir Abdul-Matin, and have not as yet received a reply regarding my premises, as of August 15, 2008. I can only conclude that these beloved people have found the words of the One True God to be irrefutable!
The following is the second of six total premises from the above discourse, “The Truth and the Light Regarding the Christian and Islam Faiths”, of which the rational person will find irrefutable. Please know that I love all people of all faiths and ethnicities of whom God loves, and this is the reason why I continuously toil to bring the Truth and the Light to all those who are seeking:
“The second premise to address is the Islam belief that Jesus Christ was only a prophet – that He was not deity or the only Son of God. In 1 John, 2:18-23 we read: “Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that the antichrist was coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. Thus we know this is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number. But you have the anointing that comes from the holy one, and you all have knowledge. I write to you not because you do not know the truth but because you do, and because every lie is alien to the truth. Who is the liar? Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Whoever denies the Father and the Son, this is the antichrist. No one who denies the Son has the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.”i In 1 John 4, 1-3 we read: “Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh belongs to God, and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus does not belong to God. This is the spirit of the antichrist that, as you heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world.”ii
Also, Jesus Christ professed many times in the Gospel that He was the Messiah, the only Son of God the Father. If the Islam faithful sincerely believes that Jesus was a prophet, how can they at the same time not believe that He was God’s Son? – For a prophet is one who speaks the Truth for God, you see”. May the One True God Who Lives bless each of you, always.

Bla.

(Did you even read what we wrote???)

Wow -- it always amazes me that people assume you do or do not support something simply because you don't go around trumpeting I gave xxx bucks to the local homeless shelter for Muslim women. And no doubt if you did go around trumpeting it, you'd be taken to task for being proud and trying to make yourself look good!

I have on various occasions made it quite clear that I believe what a woman chooses to wear is a matter for her to decide and her alone. As for my personal decision to wear hijab, and to continue to wear it, may I suggest you read my essay in the newly published The Veil: Women Writers on its History, Lore and Politics. http://www.amazon.com/Veil-Women-Writers-History-Politics/dp/0520255186

GEORGIASON:

Religious freedom is not widespread in the world, especially not in Muslim countries, not even secular countries like Turkey. But please mind that the Christian religion is also oppressed in countries like Israel. Just lately a Jewish mob publicly burnt copies of the New Testament. I have no high hopes for religious tolerance, except for the countries that usually come to mind… like US + EU + Japan and maybe a few seletct others. The rest are (I'm sorry to say) barbarians.

Before we are subjected to more comments from Muslims giving us their objective opinion that Islam is a touch-feely religion that embodies love and respect for all mankind, please do a few mouse clicks to the NEWS section of the POST and read this article in full:

"Egypt's Coptic Christians Are Choosing Isolation - Violent Clashes With Majority Muslims and an Increase in Separate Institutions Help Sever Centuries-Old Ties

By Ellen Knickmeyer
Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday, July 7, 2008; A08

CAIRO -- Under pressure from fundamentalist forms of Islam and bursts of sectarian violence, the most populous Christian community in the Middle East is seeking safety by turning inward, cutting day-to-day social ties that have bound Muslim to Christian in Egypt for centuries, members of both communities say.
Attacks this summer on monks and shopkeepers belonging to Egypt's Coptic Christian minority, and scattered clashes between Muslims and Christians, have compelled many of Egypt's estimated 6 million to 8 million Copts to isolate themselves in a nation with more than 70 million Muslims..."

I am one of those Americans who has pointed out the monumental hypocrisy at work when Muslims harp on the alleged ignorance of Americans about Islam, while ignoring the fact that Muslim countries refuse to grant Christians in their midst the freedoms enjoyed every day by Muslims in America. I rest my case.

Before we are subjected to more comments from Muslims giving us their objective opinion that Islam is a touch-feely religion that embodies love and respect for all mankind, please do a few mouse clicks to the NEWS section of the POST and read this article in full:

"Egypt's Coptic Christians Are Choosing Isolation - Violent Clashes With Majority Muslims and an Increase in Separate Institutions Help Sever Centuries-Old Ties

By Ellen Knickmeyer
Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday, July 7, 2008; A08

CAIRO -- Under pressure from fundamentalist forms of Islam and bursts of sectarian violence, the most populous Christian community in the Middle East is seeking safety by turning inward, cutting day-to-day social ties that have bound Muslim to Christian in Egypt for centuries, members of both communities say.
Attacks this summer on monks and shopkeepers belonging to Egypt's Coptic Christian minority, and scattered clashes between Muslims and Christians, have compelled many of Egypt's estimated 6 million to 8 million Copts to isolate themselves in a nation with more than 70 million Muslims..."

I am one of those Americans who has pointed out the monumental hypocrisy at work when Muslims harp on the alleged ignorance of Americans about Islam, while ignoring the fact that Muslim countries refuse to grant Christians in their midst the freedoms enjoyed every day by Muslims in America. I rest my case.

"anonymous"… no, I'm Catholic alright. But we should never reject a scripture right away, and that includes the Quran, especially if the scholars, who say that it's based on older Christian sources, are right. If we can disclose errors, like Luxenberg has done with the hijab, that's fine. And we should definitely not reject the Quran if it says something so pivotal and so important like the Christ, who was not really crucified—something which also the Christian-Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter mentions, where it's also make-believe—, because a remark like this aims at the core of Christian religion. From the standpoint of faith we can of course ignore it: we Christians believe that the Christ was crucified, fine. But from a scientific standpoint, our faith is not relevant. And I go for facts, and in science we have to look at *all* the sources. In this specific case, the original Greek sources of e.g. the Gospel of Mark do not explicitly mention the crucifixion. We may continue to believe what we believe, but we should switch off our beliefs, when looking for *historical* truth.

Maria Janna what a round about way of saying you are a Muslim! Gosh you nearly had me fooled. Thanks but no thanks for your interpretations of the New Testament.

Hello, "anonymous"… thank you for a constructive post. Others should maybe follow your example.

A: the standard method used by Muslims approaching a Christian with the intention of converting them to Islam is tell the Christian that their own Scripture is wrong. Unfortunately it is mostly Catholics who have not read the Bible for themselves who buy into this.

MJ: This depends on how you interpret the "wrongness" of Scripture. Can Scripture even be "wrong" at all? The written religions are characterized by constant rewriting, redefinition, reinterpretation, transformation, errors in copying and translation processes, alterations due to new secular and theological developments etc.. This is the case for the the Christian Bible, the Jewish books and also the Quran. If one thinks that réécriture makes a Scripture "wrong", then he has missed the central point and characteristic of all religions that use Scripture as a fundament. You need rewriting to retain theopolitical power.

A: The Muslims harp on the Council of Nicea as a way of discounting the New Testament. However one important fact is ignored, the Council consisted of a group of the most religious people who were keen to preserve the Scripture exactly as it was and used the most original sources they could find.

MJ: Canon formation was more or less finished at that time. Nicaea and other councils were about finetuning and the correct *interpretation* of Scripture. There were still some major stumbling blocks, e.g. like the Apocalypse of John, which has remained a stumbling block to this day, but in general canon had specifically formed generations before, especially through the disputes with the propagators of alternate teachings and theologies, like Marcion. It doesn't mean that there were no disputes at the council. One major discrepancy shows if you compare the original with the final Creed. The original Nicene Creed doesn't mention the crucifixion for example, which is also contested in the Quran, where it's clearly a mock crucifixion, the presentation of a simulacrum. The gospels themselves also don't speak of a crucifixion, if you read the original Greek text. The words used are all about wood, wooden planks etc., so you could as well translate it as a cremation, which would accord with Augustine, who declared the Christ's apotheosis by fire and explicitly wrote that the Latin "cremo" (to cremate) is connected to the Greek word "krêmo" (to crucify) in the original sources. The Christians at Nicaea changed the Creed only many years later, and by doing so turned the "wooden planks" into a crucifixion once and for all. But still it took many more centuries for the Crucified Christ to enter mainstream Christian iconography, and even more for the patiens-type to emerge. There are many more examples, so to me it's quite logical that Muslims try to use Nicaea as one fulcrum for proselytization. If we ourself don't study the original Greek sources and read only modern-day translations, we shouldn't blame the Muslims for doing so. We're asking for it. I mean, of course most Muslims in the world don't know any Arabic, but at least there are SOME, who read the Quran in its original language. (Apart from the Syro-Aramaic language of the Ur-Quran, but that one is lost and can only be deduced.) This should be an example for all Christians.

A: People who copy Scripture do not invent it.

MJ: No, but apart from the many possible errors happening in the copying process, they also occupy Scripture with their mindset. They often change it, sometimes unwillingly, sometimes on purpose. Religions need to adapt, otherwise they will vanish. And often they adapt by themselves, because it's inherent to the process.

A: The words of Mohammad were written down by many people simultaneously. Different versions of Mohammad's teaching was taught as a result. But since Islam was a theocracy one leader could use his political power to decide on the official version and have all other versions destroyed.

MJ: Yes, that's exactly what happened, and it's communis opinio. Later rulers didn't approve of all of Muhammad's teachings and writings. The interesting thing is that after Muhammad's death, there is a strange near-silence in the sources for 100 to 150 years. These times were used by the theocracy to rewrite and change the Quran and even alter Muhammad's own biography. But the Quran itself was not only based on Muhammad's teachings. His grandfather had already worked on the Quran, A'isha explicitly called some of Muhammad's writings "commentaries" (mufassal), so it doesn't only mean that Muhammad could read and write, but also that there were pre-existing writings that he adapted in the Quran. Another genre is the mutasabih, which means that it's similar to other texts, i.e. also inspired by earlier writings. Two categories of the original sources were early Christian hymnals and the Syro-Aramaic Christian queryana. So Islam is already the result of a process of rewriting and adaptation/transformation of Scripture. Muhammad was only in charge of an intermediate redaction stage. But that doesn't make it false, you know? As I said above, rewriting is necessary for religions to stay alive.

A: One always hears from a Muslim that there are different versions of the New Testament.

MJ: Of course. There are four canonical and many apocryphal gospels and related writings. But that's only logical, because Christianity spread like wildfire all around the Roman empire, which resulted in different writings, different accounts of the same story, with different sources that the various authors, editorial offices and denominations worked with etc. But there's one Gospel, which is said to be the oldest and original one, namely the Gospel of Mark. There must have also been an even older Ur-Gospel, which Mark used, which could probably have been a Latin manuscript, as the early Church has always maintained (cf. Couchoud 1930 et al.). It doesn't mean that all the things that are e.g. written in John, but which are not found in Mark, are wrong. It only means that in case of different and/or diverging accounts in two discrete gospels, Christians should then rely on the oldest source, which would be Mark. That's a pretty secure form of Scripture, if you ask me.

A: The truth is that there were different versions of Mohammad's teachings as written down by his followers in his lifetime.

MJ: Sure. But in my view this is not an admissable argument to use against Islam or any other religion for that matter.

Maria Janna, the standard method used by Muslims approaching a Christian with the intention of converting them to Islam is tell the Christian that their own Scripture is wrong.

Unfortunately it is mostly Catholics who have not read the Bible for themselves who buy into this.

The Muslims harp on the Council of Nicea as a way of discounting the New Testament. However one important fact is ignored, the Council consisted of a group of the most religious people who were keen to preserve the Scripture exactly as it was and used the most original sources they could find. People who copy Scripture do not invent it.

The words of Mohammad were written down by many people simultaneously. Different versions of Mohammad's teaching was taught as a result. But since Islam was a theocracy one leader could use his political power to decide on the official version and have all other versions destroyed. That part of the history of the Quran is being pasted on the New Testament.

One always hears from a Muslim that there are different versions of the New Testament. The truth is that there were different versions of Mohammad's teachings as written down by his followers in his lifetime.

It will be funny if it were not so violently tragic, to read the post at June 28, 2008 11:32 AM arguing with calculator in hand about which religion, Christians or Muslims, killed less millions of people in the world history.

It's like the reverse China 2008 Olympics: second place gets the gold!

Peace to all (it appears we really need a lot),

JAC

Again and again and again and again, the Reality Challenged and Obfuscating Jihadist claims to have read every book under "allah's" sun and makes much commentary especially every religion but Islam. Unfortunately she/he still cannot come to grips with the obvious flaws and errors of Islam.

One wonders how such a self-appointed elitist with this enormous treasure of book readings, cannot bring her/him self to say to everyone, "I believe in pretty wingie, flying, talking, fictional thingies".

And "I believe that Gabriel did talk to Mo-man in that hot cave".

And "I believe that Sunnis are the great salvation to humankind and that Shiites are
low-lifes who don't deserve to live".

And "I believe in all the warmongering, anti-female, death to the infidel passages in the koran".

Indeed one wonders about the true character and intentions of The Jihadist. But then again fear of wrath of imam goon squads must weigh on The Jihadist's commentaries. Said fear is addressed quite well by the "Pleased Apostate" as noted below.

Maria Janna,

I saw this post of yours in Rabbi Steinsaltz's thread in response to Josh:

MJ: "Yes. People of the sword we are. It's in our book. You know, after all: we do have our own book. But this article is not about physical weapons, but about written weapons called the holy scriptures. And in this context I need to repeat myself: Judaism, Christianity, Islam etc. are all "written religions", but there are very specific differences: Jews are the people of the SCROLL, while Christians are the people of the BOOK. Get educated, please."

Come now. We all know about the Councils of Nicea. So is Hinduism and Buddhism that are "written down".

I am not discounting you as a devout Catholic, but surely.....

I was Muslims as a child - and I could clearly remember the day when I found out that we were no longer going to be Muslim.

In a single word it was relief - they had so much control over our lives and I vowed that no one would ever control me like that again.

Islam says that women are only half human - I have since spent time is several Islamic countries - I remember leaving the first country and thinking thank God I was born in the west and thank God I am a free woman.

What I realized was that even though you are brought up Islamic in the west - going to Islamic countries and seeing how the women are treated and how society is structured - is a culture shock - you just wouldn't be prepared for it.

But if you are looking to give up your freedom - and have a man's stewardship - then I suppose that it would suit you. It was so distressing being in this Islamic country - I began to think - if I was only a man - then they would talk to me like I was a human.

I am very careful as to who I tell that I was once a Muslim - My own mother was threatened (with death) for leaving. It probably is a glossy or dreamy image in the mind when you join but the reality is still there.

I would warn anyone against joining Islam. The violence in Islam is - largely hush hush - but it is real and every Muslim - who has been in it long enough knows it. They would defend Islam first before they tell you because they are more afraid of that frightening God Allah.

I was Muslims as a child - and I could clearly remember the day when I found out that we were no longer going to be Muslim.

In a single word it was relief - they had so much control over our lives and I vowed that no one would ever control me like that again.

Islam says that women are only half human - I have since spent time is several Islamic countries - I remember leaving the first country and thinking thank God I was born in the west and thank God I am a free woman.

What I realized was that even though you are brought up Islamic in the west - going to Islamic countries and seeing how the women are treated and how society is structured - is a culture shock - you just wouldn't be prepared for it.

But if you are looking to give up your freedom - and have a man's stewardship - then I suppose that it would suit you. It was so distressing being in this Islamic country - I began to think - if I was only a man - then they would talk to me like I was a human.

I am very careful as to who I tell that I was once a Muslim - My own mother was threatened (with death) for leaving. It probably is a glossy or dreamy image in the mind when you join but the reality is still there.

I would warn anyone against joining Islam. The violence in Islam is - largely hush hush - but it is real and every Muslim - who has been in it long enough knows it. They would defend Islam first before they tell you because they are more afraid of that frightening God Allah.

Again and again and again and again, the Reality Challenged and Obfuscating Jihadist claims to have read every book under "allah's" sun and makes much commentary but still cannot come to grips with the obvious flaws and errors of Islam.
One wonders how such a self-appointed elitist with this enormous treasure of book readings, cannot bring her/him self to say to everyone, "I believe in pretty wingie, flying, talking, fictional thingies".

And "I believe that Gabriel did talk to Mo-man in that hot cave".

And "I believe that Sunnis are the great salvation to humankind and that Shiites are
low-lifes who don't deserve to live".

And "I believe in all the warmongering, anti-female, death to the infidel passages in the koran".

Indeed one wonders about the true character and intentions of The Jihadist. But then again fear of wrath of imam goon squads must weigh on The Jihadist's commentaries.

Jihadist: I don't suppose you are not over-reacting to that phrase.

MJ: It's possible I may be a bit overly sensitized. But that's not only directed against Islam. On the other hand, since many aspects of Islam are highly anti-civilization (I mean that in general, not anti-West), it should be at the top of everyone's list.

Jihadist: She was speaking in a personal context of the book that changed her life. Ever read pieces by Cal Thomas or Charles Colson or Dr Willis E Elliot on, er, "grandeur" or "primacy" of Christianity as they see it as men of that faith? One is proud and happy to be Republicans or Democrats too and see the vision and grandeur of the ideology of those parties?

MJ: Of course. And they could be proselytizing too… even aggressively, especially if they're Protestants or those evangelical dims. This is not just a "Muslim thing". Case-by-case.

Jihadist: I see that regardless of whether Muslims are listening to and prefering what Pamela Taylor or Eboo Patel said and do rather than Osama or Abu Hamza "doesn't make any difference" to you. Very telling.

MJ: Very telling in what way? The Quran and the other holy scriptures of Islam stay the same. Abu Hamza et al. are Muslims too, using them to interpret and justify their actions. If the Quran offers these interpretations and justifications—well, actually it does offer them!—, every Muslim should at least think twice about the books they're adhering to. But in general, they should either leave their religion or face the challenge for reformation.

Jihadist: As for being phililogical, it is Muslims not Muhammadans.

MJ: After observing Islam for some time now I can not but state that "Muslim" may be the official term, but "Muhammadan" would be the correct one, judged from Muslim self-concept, actions and their lackeyism to the prophet.

Jihadist: The related Suras of the Qur'an never stated women are to cover their faces with niqab, but to dress modestly and cover their bosoms etc. But, as you know, whether religious or secular interpretations, it is mostly men who define and enforce them.

MJ: Yes, and these men use false readings and interpretations of the Quran to do so, which was my argument all along. But if Muslimas want to follow the Quran, and follow it correctly, they should wear a girdle, if Luxenberg is right. (By the way: the girdle is also a signifier for slavery, especially "religious slavery"; cp. ancient priests, monks etc.) Whether they want to wear a headscarf for other personal, non-religious reasons is their decision.

Wasim: Are you serious?

MJ: Yes, I'm serious. The Quran is a compilation, translation and re-writing, based in large part on early (heretic) Christian sources like a queryana and hymnals, probably mainly from the Syro-Aramaic region.

add this text into your destiny, PAmela Taylor, you'll need one.

jazz.intext.googlepages.com/vesairvesait.txt

Maria Janna : Of course not. The WaPo-questions aren't. But Taylor telling us about the grandeur of Islam and finishing her article with "Whether you are interested in converting or not, I highly recommend the book" is proselytizing. Simple as that.

* I don't suppose you are not over-reacting to that phrase. She was speaking in a personal context of the book that changed her life. Ever read pieces by Cal Thomas or Charles Colson or Dr Willis E Elliot on, er, "grandeur" or "primacy" of Christianity as they see it as men of that faith? One is proud and happy to be Republicans or Democrats too and see the vision and grandeur of the ideology of those parties?

* I see that regardless of whether Muslims are listening to and prefering what Pamela Taylor or Eboo Patel said and do rather than Osama or Abu Hamza "doesn't make any difference" to you. Very telling.

* As for me, listening to what Stevens-Arryo, Mary Cunningham, Viejita Del Oeste, Soja from Auatralia, Ryan Haber etc (the self-identified Catholic posters) has to say as Catholics does makes a difference on how I see Catholics, and not just what Pope Benedict 16 has to say regarding his faith and Church and on those of other faiths and adherents of other faiths.

Maria Janna: "The veil was used (especially in Arab countries) as a form of seduction and persuasion."

* It must be those belly dancers wearing transparent veils. The hijab and niqab was precisely to have the opposite impact. Unless those are skin tights, if ever, or tantalisingly and accidentally revealing in parts of the bodies where it was covered.

Maria Janna : It (the veil) can be a form of female preeminence, and NOT of oppression.

* You are getting warmer. The veil was adopted by Muslim women of the ruling elite from the Byzantine Christian high born ladies when going out and about. So said some cultural historians.

You : I was arguing on a philological level ONLY. I vigorously oppose the Islamic view of the veil and/or the headscarf as being mandatory by Quranic law.

* Yes. The Qur'an ask not only women, but men to dress modestly. There was and still is a lot of misreading as well as various interpretations of that.

Maria Janna : The problem however is that most Muhammadans refer to the Quran when the ħijāb is mentioned and/or criticized.

* As for being phililogical, it is Muslims not Muhammadans. The related Suras of the Qur'an never stated women are to cover their faces with niqab, but to dress modestly and cover their bosoms etc. But, as you know, whether religious or secular interpretations, it is mostly men who define and enforce them.

Cheers
"J"

Wasim, Wasim, Wasim Wherever You Are,

I do not comment under another name. And the only reason, I do not use my real name is fear of imam goon squads.

Poor CCNL,

Still posting away as different people. Maria? Are you serious???

Victoria your posts hit the nail on the spot.

Thank you sister Pamela for the book and your personal narrative.

As a Muslim myself, I hope I can gain something from the book insh'allah aswell.

May Allah bless, guide, and raise you in spiritual rank. Ameen.

Salaam

@Victoria: actually I'd have to revise that… it's not about Spanish and Portugese… it's rather about Spanish and Latin or Portugese and Latin… Syro-Aramaic was there long before Arabic… Arabic is a late language that was ultimately defined by Mumu writing the Quran… or rather: translating and adapting the Quran from the Syro-Aramaic (heretic) Christian queryana.

So actually you even didn't understand Luxenberg with the Spanish/Portugese-thing. Yet another peace of obscurantism and propaganda.

Again and again and again and again, the Reality Challenged and Obfuscating Jihadist claims to have read every book under "allah's" sun and makes much commentary but still cannot come to grips with the obvious flaws and errors of Islam.
One wonders how such a self-appointed elitist with this enormous treasure of book readings, cannot bring her/him self to say to everyone, "I believe in pretty wingie, flying, talking, fictional thingies".

And "I believe that Gabriel did talk to Mo-man in that hot cave".

And "I believe that Sunnis are the great salvation to humankind and that Shiites are
low-lifes who don't deserve to live".
And "I believe in all the warmongering, anti-female, death to the infidel passages in the koran".

Indeed one wonders about the true character and intentions of The Jihadist. But then again fear of imam goon squads does affect one's true character.

Nouri, Nouri, Nouri,

If you lived in Iran, you would not have a choice since apostates as per koranic teachings are killed. But I guess that does not bother you.

Victoria wrote: "yes, we're familiar with luxenberg, but the word is khimmar and is in arabic. not a syro-aramaic christian pastiche. its like using the portugese language to translate a spanish book"

MJ writes: a) you're not familiar with Luxenberg, otherwise you wouldn't have written what you wrote; b) the Portugese & the Spanish language are quite close to one another, so that's a good analogy for the relationship between Syro-Aramaic and the later Arabic. Thank you.

Jihadist wrote: "There are non-Muslim panellists too. Are giving views on questions posed by WaPo on issues related to faith a proselytisation?"

MJ writes: Of course not. The WaPo-questions aren't. But Taylor telling us about the grandeur of Islam and finishing her article with "Whether you are interested in converting or not, I highly recommend the book" is proselytizing. Simple as that.

Jihadist wrote: "Surely you’d rather Muslims listen to Pamela Taylor or Eboo Patel rather than Osama or Abu Hamza."

MJ: It doesn't make any difference.

Jihadist wrote: "a western Muslim like Pamela Taylor is also pressured by those dictating to her what not to wear so she can be “liberated” and “free” and have “freedom”. […] Is freedom for women also not others telling them what to wear and not to wear?"

MJ writes: My grandmother wore a headscarf. I have nothing against that in general. As a ROMAN-Catholic I know that long ago Caesar Augustus introduced the veil as a form of religious signifier in Europe. There are still regions in Europe today where women are ordered to be veiled in church. And a veil can also be a wonderful thing. The veil was used (especially in Arab countries) as a form of seduction and persuasion. It can be a form of female preeminence, and NOT of oppression. But you seemed to have misunderstood me: I was arguing on a philological level ONLY. I vigorously oppose the Islamic view of the veil and/or the headscarf as being mandatory by Quranic law. That's a misreading of the sources. It's simply wrong. But I have nothing against the veil as a traditional piece of head-clothing. The problem however is that most Muhammadans refer to the Quran when the ħijāb is mentioned and/or criticized.

Cheers, MJ.

"Islam and the Destiny of Man" by Charles Le Gai Eaton (aka Hasan le Gai Eaton or Hassan Abdul Hakeem) is the book that changed Pam's life.

I much prefer "Man and the Destiny of Islam". Its told all over the world and is changing the lives of countless individuals. Of course Pam probably doesn't like the ending of that story..

As a progressive muslim- Pamela should be supportive of the young women who are raised by muslim parents in western society and wish to express their freedom by NOT wearing the hijab. Many are paying with their lives- murdered by a father or brother. Hey Pam -how about sponsoring one of the safe houses that are opening in free countries to give these girls a place to run and find shelter when dad and brother tries to kill them--

"The brother of a Canadian teenager who was slain in what friends described as a family dispute over a Muslim head scarf was charged with murder, becoming the second family member accused in her death, police said Friday.

Aqsa Parvez, 16, of Pakistani origin, was strangled in December at her Mississauga, Ontario, home.

Waqas Parvez, 27, who had faced obstruction allegations in his sister's death, was charged Thursday with first-degree murder.

Their father Muhammad Parvez, 57, was charged with first-degree murder earlier this month. He had been a suspect since shortly after her death."

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jlxk0VZkrbniEdlX-CIrPjFR_Q5AD91IR0PG0

Maria Janna : "…user posting videos as investigateislam and muhammadtubecom, not only to look behind some of the countless apologetic lies, but also in order to be able to classify and detect Muslim obscurantism and the advances for proselytization and conversion to Islam, which are by the way quite obvious in Taylor's pamphlet, although less aggressive than usual."

* Apologetic lies? Obscurantism? Advances for proselytisation? Conversion to Islam? Less aggressive? This is On Faith. There are non-Muslim panellists too. Are giving views on questions posed by WaPo on issues related to faith a proselytisation?

* It does sound a bit histrionic. I have been reading pieces by Cal Thomas and Charles Colson and Susan Jacoby and Daniel Dennett in On Faith and not in the slightest think they are proselytising or I am about to convert to be a Christian to become an atheist.

* Surely you’d rather Muslims listen to Pamela Taylor or Eboo Patel rather than Osama or Abu Hamza. And surely you are aware that the most active missionary activities in the last and this century are from the United States to Latin America, Africa and Asia. And surely are aware that it is not for humanitarian assistance or to bring civilisation… and we know how aggresive some are.

Maria Janna : A note for Taylor: since you're wearing the ħijāb on the photo, I assume you're doing it for religious reasons.

* You are not the first person to point out Pamela Taylor is wearing a hijab. It does seem odd that while some equate the freedom of Muslim women with not wearing a scarf or hijab as they are deemed to be pressured to do so by their menfolk or society in the Muslim world, a western Muslim like Pamela Taylor is also pressured by those dictating to her what not to wear so she can be “liberated” and “free” and have “freedom”.

* Is freedom for women also not others telling them what to wear and not to wear? Do “free and liberated” women really have freedom what they freely chose what to wear?

* So what if a woman wanst to dress drably and comfortably in her interpretation to dress modestly, and by her personal choice to dress that way? Personal comfort is better than narcissistic tarting up and preening to impress others.

* For who Pamela Taylor is, I really can’t see all dressed up in Dolce and Gabbana suits with Prada accessories and Jimmy Choo shoes. That would be immodest.

Cheers
"J"

"Accept these five "cleansers" and we guarantee a complete recovery from your Islamic ways!!!!"

Let me tell you something even if you put the whole universe on a plate for me in order to leave this way of life, I will decline the offer without hesitation at all.

I feel blessed with Islam and the more educated I become, the more I am convinced this is the right choice for me and all those that seek inner peace within themselves.

No matter what school of thought you ccme from and the harder you try to impress me with your neurons that cant see beyond the tip of your nose, you will soon realise that you are fooling no one but yourself and whatever approach you will try to adopt whether it will be a cognitive approach, or a Pavlovian conditioning approach to brainwash ordinary citizens into submission to an Elite that serve none but themselves, you will be just blowing in the wind.

This neo-conservative approach is doomed to failure in the long term and will be a footnote in the US history.

Keep preaching your Five Point Program for Elimination of the Brainwashing of Islam, I am sure you will find sponsors that will help you promote it in glossy magazines.

However my advice to you, do not waste your energy and money on achieving the impossible but on good causes like getting rid of Malaria and Famine from Africa and other places on no so fortunate human beings on planet earth.

I hope you will make the right choice :)

***We welcome *the light* you are spreading***

Where is the light ?

Is there any light in Afghanistan,Iran Islamic Republic,Saudi Arabia,Algeria,Minneapolis Islamic Community,Indonesia etc. ?

Is there any enlightened islamic country ?

Crescent(moon diety symbol) is the mark of darkness,not light.

Light is Civilization.
Light means *two plus two makes four*,not two equals one.

Continuation of the Five Point Program for Elimination of the Brainwashing of Islam:

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels/"pwtfft"s to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.
Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."
Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

Accept these five "cleansers" and we guarantee a complete recovery from your Islamic ways!!!!

Continuation of the Five Point Program for Elimination of the Brainwash of Islam:

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations.

continuation of the Five Point Program for Eliminating the Brainwash of Islam:

Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.
"1. Belief in Allah"
"aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added to your cleansing neurons.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gib Gnab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "creationist".

Nouri, Nouri, Nouri,

It is obvious that the Three B Syndrome (Bred, Born and Brainwashed in Islam in your case) has a mighty hold on you.

Again, the Five Point Program for Eliminating the Brainwash Of Islam:

Note: the word checker for the blog is choking on something. I will forwared in sections to isolate said "choke".

Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

"

Nouri advises me:
"hope you will take this advice into consideration and find yourself a more apporpriate INTELLIGENT name with which you can pursue your own philosophy whatever it may be. Good luck."

I , like Abraham Lincoln, was named after my grandfather. All monotheistic religions believe in Abraham(Ibrahim) . No one has a monopoly on this name ;Christians , Jews and Muslims use it. I would still use it if I were not a believer of any religion because I did not chose it in the first place, but was given me by my parents. I do not understand why some think this name is inappropriate for me. Maybe you would rather call me Abe.

Nouri- A salaamu alaikum wa rahmatulahi wa barakatu-
we welcome the light you are spreading

paganplace is right about the names
observer speaks from a limited persective-

i'm a white eurocentric american revert to islam but didn't marry anyone but became muslim on my own with my own brain as my guide-

maria janna-

C. Luxenberg, who has deciphered and analyzed Sura 24.31: the "Muslim Hijab" is actually a misreading from an older word for "girdle" and "belt", as most of the Quranic verses are a mutated scriptural transformation from the Syro-Aramaic Christian queryana (cf. Luxenberg, "The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran").

yes, we're familiar with luxenberg-

but the word is khimmar and is in arabic- not a syro-aramaic christian pastiche-

its like using the portugese language to translate a spanish book-

hi lib! i'm not even in here and ive made it onto one of your lists-

dont try to trap me in one of the little list boxes in your mind!

i may scratch and kick in there and open it up some and we cannot have that now, can we?

"Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:
Mo, Mo, Mo,
As with Ahmed, Victoria, Pamela, Daisy, Nouri, Eboo, The Jihadist and all the Sunnis and Shiites, you live inside the Islamic box surrounded by the flaws and errors of said religion.
Again, free yourself by following the Five Point Program for Removing Islamic Brainwash that has been provided to you many times in the past."

The Islamic Box is here to stay and here to grow because it offers justice, humility, common sense, support the needy and above all it strengthen the relationship between the creator of this universe and his creation in a harmonious way.

Islam is not a Wishy Washy Religion. It is a way of life that guides the human being in an individual and collective way from sunrise to sunset to be a power of good for humanity and not to be a dependent slave to an ego that want to fulfill more of his desires in an obscene way that will enrage anyone who is aware that in the same time other human beings are wasting from lack of basic necessities of life.

"Ibrahim Mahfouz:
Mo challenge us thus.
“if you have read all the books of the planet earth and have not read the quran,you have not read any thing.”

Asim who might be the same person as Mo had earlier suggested basically the same thing.
"read the Holy Quran with honesty ,objectivity and an open mind-then you shall find the Truth, the only truth."
What follows was and is my response:

I had read that book many times and found it to be riddled with contradictions, false information about history, natural phenomena , human biology and theology. A book full of fairy tales about demons, Houris, devils, jinn and angels with thousands of wings, talking ants and talking stones. A book that is a compilation of legends and rituals from Persian Zoroaster religions‘, Sabaens and Arabian pagan religions with embellished stories from the Old Testament, the Talmud and some from the New Testament. I found every page in to be an assault on human rationality and an insult to any person's intelligence."

If you are so confident about your rethorics and if you are truly called Ibrahim, why dont you start by getting rid of this name of yours since it reflects on the pionner of the Abrahamic faith. Ibrahim is the Arabic name for the prophet Abraham (Peace be upon Him).

I hope you will take this advice into consideration and find yourself a more apporpriate INTELLIGENT name with which you can pursue your own philosophy whatever it may be. Good luck!

Mo challenge us thus.
“if you have read all the books of the planet earth and have not read the quran,you have not read any thing.”

Asim who might be the same person as Mo had earlier suggested basically the same thing.
"read the Holy Quran with honesty ,objectivity and an open mind-then you shall find the Truth, the only truth."
What follows was and is my response:

I had read that book many times and found it to be riddled with contradictions, false information about history, natural phenomena , human biology and theology. A book full of fairy tales about demons, Houris, devils, jinn and angels with thousands of wings, talking ants and talking stones. A book that is a compilation of legends and rituals from Persian Zoroaster religions‘, Sabaens and Arabian pagan religions with embellished stories from the Old Testament, the Talmud and some from the New Testament. I found every page in to be an assault on human rationality and an insult to any person's intelligence.

Mo, Mo, Mo,

As with Ahmed, Victoria, Pamela, Daisy, Nouri, Eboo, The Jihadist and all the Sunnis and Shiites, you live inside the Islamic box surrounded by the flaws and errors of said religion.

Again, free yourself by following the Five Point Program for Removing Islamic Brainwash that has been provided to you many times in the past.

the main characteristic of the QURAN.

the quran is preserved by the creator god till the last day ,in other word whether mankind preserve or not whether jin kind preserve it or not,the quran remain ever reserved .

the true TORA and the true BIBLE even though are the creator god,s word ,yet they were given to people to preserve them (apply them in life)in other word if people do not preserve them they lose them.this is exactly what happen to the tora and to the bible they are complet lost right now ,people of the book received divine revelation but they have not preserved it,they exchanged it for worldly gains.

the quran is the last and final divine revelation to mankind ,the preservation of the quran is one of the many proof and evidence.

the quran contain every thing from day one to the last day.

reading the quran requires open heart as well as open mind ,if you open your heart and mind to the quran ,the quran open to you, if you close your heart and mind to the quran it close to you ,this is another characteristic of the quran.

if you have read all the books of the planet earth and have not read the quran,you have not read any thing.

Ahmed, Ahmed, Ahmed,

So you live outside the Islamic box. Ok then exactly what large box do you live in?

There are many websites that expose the propaganda that is spread here. For an as-quick-as-possible access I suggest that readers go to youtube and check out the user posting videos as investigateislam and muhammadtubecom, not only to look behind some of the countless apologetic lies, but also in order to be able to classify and detect Muslim obscurantism and the advances for proselytization and conversion to Islam, which are by the way quite obvious in Taylor's pamphlet, although less aggressive than usual.

A note for Taylor: since you're wearing the ħijāb on the photo, I assume you're doing it for religious reasons. This is however a false tradition. I'd like to direct you to a German article by Quranic scholar and philologian C. Luxenberg, who has deciphered and analyzed Sura 24.31: the "Muslim Hijab" is actually a misreading from an older word for "girdle" and "belt", as most of the Quranic verses are a mutated scriptural transformation from the Syro-Aramaic Christian queryana (cf. Luxenberg, "The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran").

You will find the article here:

phil.uni-sb.de/projekte/imprimatur/2004/imp040204.html

(add the usual http and :// and www.)

OK guys, the cut-and-paste routine has become almost as wearisome as J*sv*s the Anonymous.

concerned

i love you.

i was born outside of any box you can imagine.

hugs.

The complete synopsis of the flaws and errors of the major contemporary religions:

(Noted many times so skip if you have seen them before.)

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a mythical character as was Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

Many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and many of their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

3. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

4. Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing (11 wives), lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."

The caste/laborer system and cow worship/reverence are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."
"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life. e.g. Buddha by one legend was supposedly talking when he came out of his mother's womb.

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies, and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.

Anon, Anon, Anon Wherever You Are,

Hmmm, your history is severely and "Islamically" skewed

"1) With the Barbarity of the Roman Empire and its extermination of all those that do not adhere to the Catholic faith."

The Roman Empire crucified Jesus and many of his followers.

I am not aware of Constantine evoking death penalty for those that did not become Christian when Christianity became the official religion of Rome.

"2) The barbarity of the Crusades and their violent attempts in imposing their vision of Christianity on Orthodox Christians, Jews, heretics and Muslims. This is an example of their violence:
"When Muslim cities were captured by Christian crusaders, it was standard operating procedure for all inhabitants - no matter what their age - to be summarily killed. It is not an exaggeration to say that the streets ran red with blood as Christians reveled in church-sanctioned horrors. Jews who took refuge in their synagogues would be burned alive, not unlike the treatment they received in Europe."

The Crusades were a response to the growing threat and violence of Islam. And your quote was from what source?

Indeed the Jews then and until recently were treated horribly. This however was not driven by the teachings of Jesus but by some significantly stupid idea that the Jews were responsible for the death of Jesus. See Professor Crossan's books, the Historical Jesus and Excavating Jesus to get the true story.

"3) The Inquisition:
The pope excelled in the art of bringing fear and tools of violence (burning people alive was his favourite tool) towards those not submitting themsleves to his dictations and the dictations of the faith whether they were Christians or not."

Again some significantly stupid response to the embellishments of the NT such that the Catholic Church was the only salvation and road to Heaven.
Again see the previously referenced books to get the real history of the simple preacher man.

4) The Reformation:
Millions of Europeans citizens for decades were butchered in order to have a pure reformation of Christianity. It was noticeable not just between Catholics abut Catholics and Protestants.

Millions butchered?? References??

5) Brutal violent invasion of native people lands from Africa to Asia to other territories with the sword in one hand and the bible in the other hand.

Brutal invasion? You mean colonization by the Spaniards, French and English? Islam did their fair share of violent invasions but with sword and koran. Whereas the koran teaches such activity the NT does not!!! Again some misguided missionaries and the error of Christianity being the only way to heaven. Islam suffers from the same misguided notion.

6) The Millions that were sacrificied during the First and Second World war including those innocent citizens that had to pay the price in Hiroshima and Nagazaki.

Historically a major tragedy brought about by races of men who thought they were biologically superior to the rest of us. Hiroshima and Nagazaki proved them wrong but were a necessary use of force to end the senseless killing.

Unanimous repeats, with minor variation, what Asim had been repeating. Below is my reply to Asim which apply to the above mentioned who might be the same person.
He claims the following:
1. Islam is Peace.
Moi:
The Quran, Hadith (tradition of their prophet) and Sira (history of their prophet) prove conclusively that “ Islam is a religion of fear and terror and not a religion of peace by any means. There will be continuous war in the world as long as some fanatics will believe in Muhammad, his example and his teachings. The Islamic concept of peace meaning making the whole world Muslim is undoubtedly a mandate for war. After that peace will prevail in the earth of Allah. That is the ultimate exegesis of the Arabic word “Islam”.
2. Muslims did not commit the Crusades.
Moi:
The first Crusade began in 1095… 460 years after the first Christian city was overrun by Muslim armies, 457 years after Jerusalem was conquered by Muslim armies, 453 years after Egypt was taken by Muslim armies, 443 after Muslims first plundered Italy, 427 years after Muslim armies first laid siege to the Christian capital of Constantinople, 380 years after Spain was conquered by Muslim armies, 363 years after France was first attacked by Muslim armies, 249 years after Rome itself was sacked by a Muslim army, and only after centuries of church burnings, killings, enslavement and forced conversions had some European Christians fought back.
3.The Muslims did not commit the Inquisition:
Moi
The Muslim Berbers invaded and occupied Spain for 800 years. The Spaniards finally united and defeated the colonizers. They gave them a choice to accept the religion of the Spaniards or to go back from where they came. Had they allowed those people to keep their religion, Spain would be today another Sudan or Afghanistan. The whole of North Africa and the Middle East were Christians before the Arab invasion of that area. The Arabs did not evict the indigenous population but gave them three choices, to convert or be treated as third class in their own countries or be slain.
4. Islam did not enslave the Africans.
Moi:
Slave trade is ongoing till this day in many Muslim countries. Besides it was the Muslim
Arab tribes of North Africa that were specialized in the art of human hunting and who were familiar with the interior of the Black continent. Some of those slave traders gave their hunted the choice to convert to Islam or be sold as slaves. That is why many negroes in Africa have Muslim names and yet know nothing about that religion.
5. Muslims did not nuke hundred of thousands of Japanese.
Moi:
That is because Muslims do not have nukes. Ahmadinajad is threatening to wipe out a whole country even before he built a single bomb. Besides the Americans did not do that in the name of their religion but in self defense.
6. Islam did not “force convert to Christianity’ the whole of South America.
Moi:
Nobody in the West forced anybody to do what they do not want to do because in this culture there is something called freedom of conscience; something you and your ilk would never comprehend

7. Islam did not commit The Holocaust
Moi:
A Muslim shedding tears for what befell the Jews. This is hilarious if not sad. Hitler had an excuse; he was crazy. What excuse did your prophet had for holocausting all the Jews of Arabia, and you wonder why the Israelis are behaving the way they are with regards the Palestinians.

8. Islam did not illegally invade Iraq.
Moi:
Islam illegally invaded not only Iraq but also Syria , Jordan, Palestine, Lebanon, Egypt, Libya. Tunis, Morocco, Algiers ,and Spain.
Besides the Iraq fiasco was a mistaken identity case. It should have been Saudi Arabia and Egypt who should have paid for the Twin Tower terrorist act. After all it was their citizens who committed this heinous crime.

Nouri, Nouri, Nouri,

Hmmm, your first two internet addresses result in "404 Error - File Not Found".

The third address is obviously a pro-Islamic site trying to relate the life of Jesus to that of "koranic" life. Since much of the koran was plagiarized from the OT, NT and other older religions, one would see some connections.

And the "Almanic Book of Facts"??? Publisher? Date? City? Reliability? If Islamics increased in number it is from out of control birth rate and nothing to do with theology.

And citing references from the OT to proof the validity of the koran? Not too bright because of the mythical nature of the OT e.g. there was no Adam or Eve.

And what poll shows this increase of conversion of women to Islam??

Nouri says:
‘According to "The Almanac Book of Facts", the(USA) population increased 137% within the past decade, Christianity increased 46%, while Islam increased 235%’

This number if true is mainly due the immigration and to the high birth rate among Muslims.

As to why some women in America “convert” read the post by Observer of June 28, 9:12 AM.

You make many claims without supporting them by any references. At other times you give wrong references. You reference Christian “behavior” by quoting from the Jewish Torah (Old Testament) which is where most of the Muslim religion traditions were copied and which was cancelled by the New Testament. I hate to ruin your day by citing for you the following link that shows that at the present rate Islam would be a footnote of history within few short years. Thanks to the Information Revolution.
http://www.formermuslims.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=972
Sample: Sheikh Qataani tells the AlJazeera TV channel "As to how that happened, well there are now 1.5 million churches whose congregations account for 46 million people. In every hour, 667 Muslims convert to Christianity. Everyday, 16,000 Muslims convert to Christianity. Ever year, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity. These numbers are very large indeed ? This is only in Africa."

"Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing (11 wives), lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/ mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror, male dominated and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the male dominated, Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia."

In response to this second part where you start by insulting Mohamed (Peace be upon Him) the prophet of Islam, I will not retaliate because Islam teaches me to be above this. I fail to see the love that Jesus is suppose to have filled you with and I hope that God will forgive your sins.

As for Islam being aviolent religion, I would love if you take your calculator out and add up the numbers concerning the violence committed by extremsist that do not trepresent the main stream of either Islam or Christianity.

Since you had the pleasure of listing the violence committed by certain Extremist Muslims, let me enlighten you about the violence committed by the extremist fundamentalist Christians too:
Where should I start with:
1) With the Barbarity of the Roman Empire and its extermination of all those that do not adhere to the Catholic faith.
2) The barbarity of the Crusades and their violent attempts in imposing their vision of Christianity on Orthodox Christians, Jews, heretics and Muslims. This is an example of their violence:
"When Muslim cities were captured by Christian crusaders, it was standard operating procedure for all inhabitants - no matter what their age - to be summarily killed. It is not an exaggeration to say that the streets ran red with blood as Christians reveled in church-sanctioned horrors. Jews who took refuge in their synagogues would be burned alive, not unlike the treatment they received in Europe."
3) The Inquisition:
The pope excelled in the art of bringing fear and tools of violence (burning people alive was his favourite tool) towards those not submitting themsleves to his dictations and the dictations of the faith whether they were Christians or not.

Check this fact from an article extract:

"The Inquisition was not limited to Europe, as Spaniards brought it to the Americas and used it to punish the native inhabitants. Through the 1500s, 879 heresy trials were recorded in Mexico alone. Thus, other than people, the Inquisition was one of Europe's first exports to the Americas. Church leaders supported the suppression, enslavement and murder of native inhabitants - a 1493 papal Bull justfied declaring war on all non-Christian natives in the Americas. Jurist Encisco wrote in 1509:

The king has every right to send his men to the Indies to demand their territory from these idolaters because he had received it from the pope. If the Indians refuse, he may quite legally fight them, kill them and enslave them, just as Joshua enlsaved the inhabitants of the country of Canaan."

4) The Reformation:
Millions of Europeans citizens for decades were butchered in order to have a pure reformation of Christianity. It was noticeable not just between Catholics abut Catholics and Protestants.

5) Brutal violent invasion of native people lands from Africa to Asia to other territories with the sword in one hand and the bible in the other hand.

6) The Millions that were sacrificied during the First and Second World war including those innocent citizens that had to pay the price in Hiroshima and Nagazaki.

7) The Holocaust

8) The illegal invasion of Iraq with hundered of thousands of Iraqis losing their lives beacuse of the support of Extremists Evangelist fanatics and their Neocons supporters.

NOW, WOULD YOU DO ME A FAVOUR, USE YOUR CALCULATOR, ADD THE NUNBERS AND TELL ME WHO WAS MORE VIOLENT IN WORLD HISTORY?

DO NOT ADVERT TO CHEAP SHOTS AT ISLAM IN FUTURE PLEASE!

To Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:

In answer to you enquiry and wanting more facts:

Read this article below:

According to "The Almanac Book of Facts", the population increased 137% within the past decade, Christianity increased 46%, while Islam increased 235%.

In a recent poll in the (US), 100,000 people per year in America alone, are converting to Islam. For every 1 male convert to Islam, 4 females convert to Islam, Why?

It could be that:

1. Christian Scientists are declaring the Koran is from God. Visit Here for Christian and atheist Scientists who convert to Islam and why: http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch13.html

2. The Christian Bishops and Priests are admitting the Bible has tensions. http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch2.1.html

3. Jesus is a Muslim: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/4229/jam.html

The question still remains, why are more women converting than men to Islam ?
Perhaps they realize their Soul is worth the Factual Research.

1. The Bible Convicts Women as the original
Sinners, (ie. Eve picking from the forbidden
tree){Genesis 2:4-3:24}. The Koran Clarifies it
was Adam Not Eve {Qur'an 7:19-25}

2. The Bible says "The Birth of a Daughter is a
loss" {Ecclesiasticus 22:3}. The Qur'an says both
are an Equal Blessing { Qur'an 42:49}

3. The Bible Forbids Women from Speaking in
church {I Corinthians 14:34-35}. The Qur'an says
Women Can argue with the Prophet {58:1}

4. In the Bible, divorced Women are Labeled as
an Adulteress, while men are not {Matthew 5:31-32}. The
Koran does Not have Biblical double standards
{ Qur'an 30:21}

5. In The Bible, Widows and Sisters do Not
Inherit Any Property or Wealth, Only men
do{Numbers 27:1-11}The Koran Abolished this
male greediness { Qur'an 4:22} and God Protects
All.

6. The Bible Allows Multiple Wives{I Kings 11:3}
In The Koran, God limits the number to 4 only
under certain situations (with the Wife's
permission)and Prefers you Marry Only One
Wife{ Qur'an 4:3} The Koran gives the Woman
the Right to Choose who to Marry.

7. "If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not
pledged to be married and rapes her and they are
discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty
shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he
has violated her. He can never divorce her as long
as he lives" {Deuteronomy 22:28-30}

One must ask a simple question here, who is
really punished, the man who raped the woman or
the woman who was raped? According to the
Bible, you have to spend the Rest of Your Life
with the man who Raped You.

I dont want to embarass you more with the lack of knowledge in your own faith, let alone Islam which may sounds like an exotic fruit not knowing how to handle.

"Anonymous:
Nouri, some non-Muslims happen to have read not only the Quran but also history of Islam worldwide and do not happen to agree with all you have written."

Well this is just a humble opinion that is not 100% faultless. What I can add is that as any historical project, mistakes were made during the development of the Islamic civilisation by non perfect human beings. However that wasnt the rule. It was the exception!

Nouri, Nouri, Nouri,

Reference(s) supporting your contention that significant numbers of US white women are reverting to Islam??

Odd claim based on the flaws and errors of said religion.

To wit:

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing (11 wives), lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/ mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror, male dominated and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the male dominated, Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

"Observer:
Re: women converts
Foreign students have learned early on that the quickest and surest way to stay in this country was to marry an American citizen. The women who agree to enter such an arrangement are for the most part ones who suffer from poor self image. They enjoy the exaggerated attention of men whose ultimate goal is to work and live in this country. Usually these “mixed” marriages fail, but after accomplishing the intended goal of the man i.e. the permanent residency status. Then the Muslim amongst them goes back to their original country , marry their 14 years old cousins, cover them with a Hijab and bring to live with them here."

WOW I am impresssed with your objective analysis about Islam and Muslims! By the way you also forget to mention that once these Muslims bring their wives they make sure they are securely chained to the kitchen sink!

If Islam was so abusive towards women, I wonder why so many US white women are reverting to this faith?

In Islam, paradise is under the feet of mothers not fathers so as we remember the 9 months that we were carried along to life with all this labour of love! And yet you expect Islam to teach us to be abusive to women!

Check how the Quran praises honorable women like Mary (Maryam) the mother of Jesus (Peace be upon him) at a time when Christians fail to support her or to give her the credit that she deserves!

A chapter was dedicated to her in the Holy Quran as a sign of reverence and deep respect. I wonder what was the position of certain US politicans, Anthropologists and Social science Academic had to say about the role of women in society in recent times!

I could carry on with cheap shots to prove my point but that is not the style that Islam teaches us to adopt whilst debating any issue!

Nouri says:
"Islam is a positive way of life that means Peace (Salam) but give you the right to defend yourself, your family and community if invaded."

Islam does not mean peace. It means submission , supposedly to the will of Allah. Allah‘s intentions were never peaceful. His intentions according to the Muslim scriptures is to fight all the Unbelievers in the prophet hood of Mohammad till all submit to the teachings of that 7th Century desert dweller.

Re: women converts

Foreign students have learned early on that the quickest and surest way to stay in this country was to marry an American citizen. The women who agree to enter such an arrangement are for the most part ones who suffer from poor self image. They enjoy the exaggerated attention of men whose ultimate goal is to work and live in this country. Usually these “mixed” marriages fail, but after accomplishing the intended goal of the man i.e. the permanent residency status. Then the Muslim amongst them goes back to their original country , marry their 14 years old cousins, cover them with a Hijab and bring to live with them here.

Nouri, some non-Muslims happen to have read not only the Quran but also history of Islam worldwide and do not happen to agree with all you have written.

today, when you say ISLAM, when you practise under ISLAM, you pay to authorities other than the developer team of the software : )

you may employ the will and energy that you save to practise "islam today" in stead to study and to get mature, maybe with applying to Ahmet prophet.

and i never met He left unreplied.

the life of Ahmet prophet is different than islam. islam does not belong to Ahmet prophet today. You may refer to the life of Ahmet prophet and His Love.

whatever you practise under islam, are inheritances, interpretations, additive traditions, from civilizations of Asia, some are completely different and competent in history.

why does this annoy people who have been in islam? who does want the truth and love? you may employ the will to practise as islam is to study and mature, maybe with applying to Ahmet prophet.

i never met Him left unreplied. there are neighbours in a village or campus of university. you may visit.

"Yes, Jihadist is cool."

This is a typical comment from a paranoid person whose intentions are clear from the start and who hasn’t got a clue of the meaning "Jihad" and feel free to use it and abuse as it fits necessary to fulfill his/her subjective desires and his/her eagerness to show the negative image of Islam.

This tactic is not new one since it has been adopted within the Christian faith itself when the Bible was interpreted depending on personal desires as it was seen fit by certain Powerful supported scholars at the time and at the expense of others because they were not in line with what Rome was intending to preach to its servants in its empire.

Jihad is an Arabic word coming from the root word "Jahada" which means to strive. Thus Jihad means someone who is always seeking to improve one's self in society as would have been wanted by the creator whether in time of peace or time of war.

Islam is a positive way of life that means Peace (Salam) but give you the right to defend yourself, your family and community if invaded.

This faith is practiced by more than 1.6 billion person worldwide and is the fastest growing way of life in the world according to non Islamic western sources.

This faith doesn’t come from nowhere and its rich history shows that it has built a rich attributes from supporting science (i.e. Algebra, architecture, medical science, to gardening to hydraulic systems, chemistry, astronomy etc.) to creating a great civilization to calling for the support economically of the needy and the poor, to fulfilling the social/communal obligations when time arises.

Finally Islam helps the individual to enrich its spiritual life by looking beyond this life to an ever lasting life after death.

Islam's message and journey in the view of every Muslim started from the days of Adam to Abraham to Moses to Ishmael to David to Jesus to Mohamed (Peace be upon them all) and the same divine commands are followed thanks to the living miracle "The Quran" that hasn’t been corrupted in any form or way more than 1500 years (not a single letter has been added, altered or deleted and this Holy book was kept in its original form for Muslims to recite certain of its verses from it during their 5 daily prayers in Arabic and no other language is accepted) unlike other divine books which have seen alterations, chapters deleted and so many versions updated and footnotes added.

The core of Islam message is that we created you as men and women from different tribes so that you know each other and the best among you are those that seek good deeds not hate, arrogance and sense of feeling superior to others.

Be humble and enjoy the rewards of this life and the hereafter.

Anonymous,

have You figured out HATICE in the word KHADIJA, only wife of Ahmet prophet till her death?

if i were JIHADIST, President Bush would be alone in USA and Heaven.

and conversion of women to another religion for marriage is immaturity of men.

if i dont marry the woman i love who uses Windows 98 on her computer, then i am crazy! if i have Windows XP and if she needs Windows XP, good. we have our profession.

if i have Windows 98 and if she leaves me, oh this is insanity! (this was two times in my life, they want mature men : ) if she has Windows XP and i update not, then i am crazy!

we have better try Ubuntu.

My impression of an Islamic idea of "the destiny of man" is that we all convert or die.

the destiny of man,

the authorities and elders in the world take care of the EArth because we are on board of this ship in the space moving to other places

there are twelve months and twelve planets. as we prepare for each day for each month, we may prepare for the planets and their unions.

when the planet of beauty and hardwork are affective, we may study and work so much that when the planet of anger comes we may take its energy as welcome as possible.

weekends are the blessings and prayer times of elders, weekends are the loveliest days for gifts and ease and cheer in life. weekends are communion days.

the authorities and elders keep the security as high as possible, because they consider on this ship EArth, we should keep high and safe for our generations and families.

what i do here shall happen, in this year or in the next decades. i do as clear and high as available. a few years ago, when the first negotiations had commenced, i had asked the foreign minister, now President, to tidy up the land for Union.

this is the destiny of men, from the tiniest to the grandest, from the sand on the beach to the stars.

Julia a native Indonesian first name for a Muslim...hmmm

It is common knowledge that almost all Western women convert to Islam because of marriage. It is also known that feminists would rarely admit that they chose a religion for the sake of their husband.

Yes, Jihadist is cool. At least no one is going to wonder what your religion is. The only surprise is to note that you are against the real notorious Jihadists. That is cool too.

Paganplace, Maximilian is not a Biblical name. In Europe family names may also represent the family profession. So a Taylor could be someone who comes from a family of tailors, and Baker from a family of bakers etc. All sorts of possibities for names.

who is the saint of Finland?!

Destiny of Man is Under the Feet of Women
He will stay either on Earth or in Heaven

Either in Pasific or active in Ionian Sea
Her Left Foot was on Turtles zu aufstehen

in Courier New, on EArth

Destiny of Man is Under the Feet of Women, either on Earth or Heaven.

4. "i am gonna leave body" person does not worry for a cup of coffee, a message is already one, isnt it CCNL?

"oh, i have already drunken one after you, thanks buddy!".

hey, i have been writing here! i am worth a message as a reply, Mrs Pamela TAylor, or am i not?

the difference between "i am gonna die" person and "i am gonna leave body" person.

1. either one may say "this is for once", the only difference is the surprise and a laughter.
2. "i am gonna die" person wants to be in a group, wants to make a life, wants to gather and collects.
3. "i am gonna leave body" person is already in a group, in body or out of body.

Well, Anonymous, in terms of being paraniod about Obama's name, one might do well to consider that a lot of the repetitious Christian names are of Pagan origin for the most part, anyway, if not Hebrew.

I mean, a lot of people think *we* have silly names, but there had to be a first St. Maximillian before someone could pull it out of the family Bible, anyway.

It's especially funny in that they'll make fun of 'tribal' sounding names like Bear or Willow or Raven, and they'll be sporting 'Christian' names that mean exactly that in a language someone 'forgot.' :)

Jihadist and Paganplace, you point out rightly that names may also have an ethnic and/or geographical/historical origin.
Point taken Paganplace, European were all pagan before Christianity, each area of Europe having their own unique set of pagan names. There are only so many Biblical names to choose from, so it is understandable that the pagan names had to remain. A Scandinavian Christian is more likely to have a Scandinavian pagan name. Since Julia is not a biblical name, it could well be European pagan or European/American name. It could also be found in any part of the world where Europeans had colonies and locals may have chosen European names. However such practice is not true of all countries in Asia.

Not to mention 'Victoria,' (Latin, but possibly not ancient,) and 'Pamela' (Greek)

Just while people are making a fuss about Obama (Kenyan) sounding like 'Osama' (Arabic) when mabe they could be flipping out cause John McCain is *clearly named after the martian Manhunter and a son of Cain, thus a follower of Lilith.

Chill?

"Jihadist, your explanation of names is clever but *wrong.* Names do often reveal one's religious identity. It is almost unknown for a Jew, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu or Jain to name their male child Mohammad or Ali. Yet it is a very common Muslim name. Muslims may have an Arabic version of a Christian name only if the name is common to the Bible and the Quran."

"Not many Indonesian Muslims females would be named Julia if she didn't have a mother of Dutch origin"

I don't suppose it'd be politic to point out that the name 'Julia' is of Roman Pagan origin?

Hmmm, based on the death threats of imam goon squads who follow the dictates of the koran, there is no changing of religion i.e Islam in Malaysia these days.

And Hmmm again, the Reality Challenged and Obfuscating Jihadist claims to have read every book under "allah's" sun but still cannot come to grips with the obvious flaws and errors of Islam.
One wonders how such a self-appointed elitist with this enormous treasure of book readings and commentaries, cannot bring her/him self to say to everyone, "I believe in pretty wingie, flying, talking, fictional thingies".

And "I believe that Gabriel did talk to Mo-man in that hot cave".

And "I believe that Sunnis are the great salvation to humankind and that Shiites are
low-lifes who don't deserve to live".

And "I believe in all the warmongering, anti-female, death to the infidel passages in the koran".

Indeed one wonders about the true character and intentions of The Jihadist. But then there is that fear factor weighing on her mind 24/7.

Anonymous : "Not many Indonesian Muslims females would be named Julia if she didn't have a mother of Dutch origin."

If you do travel to Indonesia and Malaysia, do look in the phone book to see what I mean. Julia Rais and Julia Manan are popular figures in the Malaysian media and entertainment world. Nope. I'm not a singer or actress or TV presenter.

There are even Malay Muslims named Yuri and Armstrong and Kennedy to commenmorate certain vents. No one named Barack here yet. Perhaps if he becomes President of the US.

"Jihadist" is a good handle, no? No Muslim would use it in a blog full of non-Muslims. Or even in Muslim blogs.

How many Chinese have Christian or Muslim names? Only if they are Christians or Muslims. They do retain their surnames as in Ismail Lim or Mustafa Chan, or Jeffrey Ooi or Peter Lam. In the identity cards, always in full Chinese names plus Muslim or Christian first names such as Catherine Lim (surname) Kim Eng, or Adam Tan (surname) Teck Hock. likewise for Indians who converted to Christianity or Islam in Malaysia. Some Indians or Chinese don't adopt a western name though when they converted to Christianity.

In Indonesia, no one change their names if they change religions.

But if you insist on names that what you said is 100% true without being in Indonesia or Malaysia.....well.

Cheers and out of here.

"J"

Indonesia and Malaysia are not good examples for names because they have changed religions at least four times, animist to Hindu to Buddhist to Islam. Chinese and colonial influence is extra. How many Chinese have Christian or Muslim names?

Jihadist as handle makes for a very real name.

Jihadist, your explanation of names is clever but *wrong.* Names do often reveal one's religious identity. It is almost unknown for a Jew, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu or Jain to name their male child Mohammad or Ali. Yet it is a very common Muslim name. Muslims may have an Arabic version of a Christian name only if the name is common to the Bible and the Quran.

Not many Indonesian Muslims females would be named Julia if she didn't have a mother of Dutch origin.

Pamela says:

"I was convinced by the life story of Prophet Muhammad -- his humility, his kindness, the fact that he did NOT amass great wealth."

"What Allah has bestowed on His Apostle (and taken away) from them (the Jews) for this (which) ye made no expedition with either calvary or camelry: But Allah gives power to His Apostles over any He pleases: and Allah Has power over all things." (59: 6)

The above is the alleged command of Allah that “legitimized” the transfer of all the Jewish lands in Medina, Khaibar and Fadak to the private ownership of the “Messenger of Allah”. He further willed these lands to his daughter Fatima. Later the first Caliph, Abu Bakr, contested the ownership of the Fadak village lands and kept it for himself, in his capacity ,off course, as the “Prince of the Faithful

Anonymous: "Pamela Taylor, Victoria and Jihadist/Julia have Christian names and Muslim husbands. I see their bridge to Islam."

I thougt what "Anonymous" posted was most irrelevant and petty.

Personal given names are never stated they should sound Islamic, or rather, Arabic. But Non-Arab Muslim parents do give Arabic names to their children that have specific meanings.

In Indonesia and Malaysia, names such as Nadia, Natasha, Maria, Julie, Tina, Rose or Ros, and yes, Julia, are given to Mulims females. Also, some names given to Muslim males are Adam, Jeffry etc.

No one made a fuss that General Omar Bradley was named Omar, a very common name for Muslim males, or Ali McGraw and Ali Larter (both females) are named Ali, a very common name for Muslim males too. Do I see their bridge to Islam?

In Indonesia and Malaysia, prior to the people of both countries becoming Muslims, as animists, they are mostly named after fruits (Manggis, Langsat etc) and flowers (Mawar, Chempaka) or descriptive names (Putih, Panjang, Pendek etc.) Then Hinduism and Buddhism were adopted, and people adopted or adapted Indian names as found in Sanskrit Hindu epic.

The use of Arab names in the Malay archipelago came with Islam. But, many Muslim Javanese of Indonesia still use Sanskrit derived names, e.g. Sultan Hemengku Buwono, Suharto, Sukarno, Susilo, Subandrio etc. Likewise Muslims in Malaysia using names that are not Arabic.

What's in a name? One can still have Christian/Western sounding names and still be Hindu, Buddhist or Muslim.

Got a name, or even a handle yet, "Anonymous"?

Cheers
"J"

Quote: I had decided that I in fact believed Prophet Muhammad's claims to Prophethood...

Are you sure? And what about all those special priveleges (in the Quran) given to Mohammad by Mohammad for Mohammad? Doesn't that make you a little suspicious? If you read the Quran Mohammad comes acrosss as a junior partner to Allah, ie "Obey Allah AND the prophet" "20% of all plunder belongs to Allah and his prophet". Mohammad gets extra wives, slave girls, permission to destroy mosques, burn down orchards, put away wives, not keep his word. In fact, the Quran even says "There is no blame for the prophet in anything he does." Why does MOhammad get a blank check for his sins?

If you read the hadith, the special revelations to benefit Mohammad were so blatant that Mohammad's child wife (Aisha) sneers "Your god is quick to do your desires."

The ahadith also tell us that Mohammad went on 26-27 raids plus almost a dozen battles against non-Muslims (only 2 were defensive in nature). Many of these were suprise attacks. He raids, plunders, kills, tortures, enslaves and lets his men rape captives. Does this tell you anything? Is this the work of a prophet of God? Well, according to Islamic tradition, this is the work of a prophet of Allah.

Where is common sense? Where is morality? Where is the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Kactuz

Dear Anonymous,

Meeting a Muslim man and discovering Islam through that relationship does not make the conversion any less sincere. This sort of smear on the validity and strength of the faith of Victoria, Julia/Jihadist, and myself is nothing more than thinly veiled misogyny, as though women cannot separate love from faith in God! Clearly some people (men and women) convert in order to please a potential spouse, but many, many men and women convert after having discovered that the religion of their boyfriend or girlfriend appeals to them more than their previous faith.

In my personal case, your assumption, however, is incorrect. I had been practicing Islam for two years before I met my husband.

Pamela

One of Nasruddin stories(Hodja means teacher,mulla and Afanti is gentleman)

Whom do you trust.

A neighbour comes to the gate of Hodja Nasruddin's yard.
*Would you mind,Hodja* the neighbour asks,*lending me your donkey today ? I have some goods to transport to the next town*
Hodja doesnt feel inclined to lend out the donkey to that particular man,however,so,not to seen rude,he answered:
*I'm sorry,but I have already lent him to somebody else*
Suddenly the donkey can be heard braying loudly behind the wall of the yard.
*You lied to me,Hodja*the neighbour exclaims.*There is behind that wall*
*What do you mean?* the Hodja replies indignantly.*whom would you rather believe,a donkey or a Hodja?*

Hi Peacock -- yes, as you put it, I got the horse before the cart. Obviously it was a bit of a simultaneous acceptance, but truly (despite all the inaccurate things that Concerned likes to post about the character of Muhammad) I was convinced by the life story of Prophet Muhammad -- his humility, his kindness, the fact that he did NOT amass great wealth, but lived as the leader (spiritually and politically) of a people in a poverty that most of us could not even fathom if were in our ability to get out of it. It was the stories of his wisdom, his easy smile, his fondness for children and grandchildren, his devoted love for his wife Khadija and subsequently Aisha, his steadfast application of justice and mercy that convinced me that he was indeed telling the truth. That he was not simply making everything up, but that he was experiencing communication with some Other (ie God). I've become aware that's a bit of a unique path, but I'm sure I'm not the only one to go about it that direction.

Pagan -- obviously, this very short book recommendation was not meant to be a complex theological discussion, but rather a quick suggestion as to a great book to read, and a bit of a reason why I thought so. As a theist, I find the Transcendent God is really the only one I can relate to. It's the defining characteristic of my personal relationship to the Divine. Clearly others can and do have very different personal relationships with the Divine, and in no way were my reflections meant to deny the validity of those relationships, rather I was trying to convey my own feelings and thoughts that this book resonated with.

Jihadist -- there are several compilations of Nasrudin (also known as Goha, Joha, and Afanti) stories. One of my favorite is called Ayat Jamilah which includes other stories along with the Nasrudin stories, and is beautifully illustrated. There are several online Islamic bookstores that carry collections of the stories. In fact, I bought a three volume set last year at an Islamic conference I attended. My kids and I love these stories too, they are simply captivating!

It's too bad you didn't read THE authoritive biography of the prophet Muhammad: "Life of Muhammad: A Translation of Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rasul Allah" before you converted. This gives the most true and earliest picture of the prophet. Even Muslims must acknowledge this as the canonical bio of Muhammad.

After you read it, you may wish you didn't. Then you might want to reconsider your Islam. At that point, you may become an apostate, which, according to Islam means you will be put to death.

Beware lest you convert to Islam too quickly.

Pamela Taylor, Victoria and Jihadist/Julia have Christian names and Muslim husbands. I see their bridge to Islam.

are you talking about Five Pointed process after Six Pointed one?

JUne 27, 2008 4:47 AM

6 27 28 447
6 9 10 15
15 1 15
6 1 6

do you know why the new age chakra system is 13?
how do you use Bluetooth in your country, CCNL?

Le//ve//nt Al//kan:

yes President Bush, they shall not know, they shall not learn, they shall not present either. but they shall withness. and this is the bless, at least gift.

June 27, 2008 4:47 AM | Report Offensive Comments

thank you for your conversation and verbalization, thank you. you are a true person. your heart gives the truth with high current.

either Didymus or Pentagon or Star or Homosexual or Carpentered Carless Homeless Edgeless Medusa Scarfed Mobile Phones,

Denmark is Denmark, either accompanies in health or not.

Armenians say the same for Asians. so the two must be the same. do you agree with me, Denmark Thorn Flower? i never heard Armenians rejecting Ahmet prophet.

Ahmed, Ahmed, Ahmed, Boxes come in different shapes and sizes. The Islamic box is very small indeed. Its sides are dictated by a warmongering, womanizing, illiterate, greed and lust driven and hallucinating Arab named Mohammed. You have been given free of charge a Five Point Process for escaping said box. Hopefully you will use it someday

yes President Bush, they shall not know, they shall not learn, they shall not present either. but they shall withness. and this is the bless, at least gift.

Grand Theaft Jesus,

newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2008/06/right_guilty_of_grand_theft_je.html

grand theft => theafth => deafen => deafened => de-afenth => open ear => educated person, efendi => Mary => Kadi'nin Fendi Erkege Yendi

i cannot say "either", President Bush, because there are atonements paid mutually, arent there?

but in August, i shall have my cloths changed. do i stink much? it is a marker : )

before Britain was on my head electromagnetically, Israel, Army, MAsonry in Turkey and USA were on my head, Prince Charles.

you have met what i was practising in hard schedule already. so do not touch me again. and do not consider my words are from me.

today newspapers are fed by Britain, television channels are fed by Britain.

whatever Senator Boxer "Kitapli BAs" speaks of, the Embassy of USA besides Armenia cannot say HAlocaust because there are Israel and Vatican behind the USA Government today.

and Ottoman Empire was not sovereign.

today is-lam is not approved, Pam-ela Tay-lor, because it is not blessed by Ah-met pro-phet himself either.

you must unite Teach-ings of Jes-us with Li-fe of Ah-met, with apost-els sa-ints eld-ers in the coun-cil. Bud-dha is Bud of Dha-rma, not different than Ah-met or Je-sus.

Prince Charles,

you are still characterless.
and you are not sane yet.

in this world, Mrs Pamela Taylor, there are councils that may write another Quran, qualified and able. hişgh in language and spirituality, with the light and wisdom that Ahmet prophet had tasted also. your imamet is just donkeyness, till you stand up to be a human again. you are far beyond aping apeness.

it never stopped, the wheel never stopped, as Robert S. McElvaine has verbalized. the wheel may be also referenced as council of animals, the solar system. today we need Evangelism to heal Asia again, after the theft from Ahmet prophet.

do you understand how stupid you are in your practises? all i can say is you must change the enslaving mind to doctorship.

but also, there is not just one embodiment, ask the Mayan Elders or Archeologists in Universities in USA, to read from the Crystal Skull for later how did Ahmet prophet appear in body on Earth?

do you know why German Formula 1 Manager was strapped by a woman in a party, wife of an agent in Intelligence Service in UK?

or what does this composition in the newspapers mean?

you must be able to consider the dynamics of a country, Pamela Taylor. every practise must take a person to at least doctorship. imamet must be doctorship.

so in stead of imamet, there must be grandparents and family issues. imam eats food and makes milk. imam takes the food and prepares it digestible and edible and gives.

Pope Benedictus must go to Iran immediately, in stead of Williams Bush, they all drive Ahura Mazda as Japanese do.

imamet : i am Ahmet, i am Rahmet

you must take "i'm amet" to "i am master".
"i'm ament" to "i am doctor", to "i'm amend"

amet : ass, buttocks
ament : thong, strap
ament : embecile

do you think it is an Arabic word, Pamela Taylor?

Ahmed, Ahmed, Ahmed,

Boxes come in different shapes and sizes. The Islamic box is very small indeed. Its sides are dictated by a warmongering, womanizing, illiterate, greed and lust driven and hallucinating Arab named Mohammed. You have been given free of charge a Five Point Process for escaping said box. Hopefully you will use it someday.

Taylor says:

"Within a few short months, having read this book, the Qur'an, and a classical Sufi text on prayer, I had decided that I in fact believed Prophet Muhammad's claims to Prophethood."

If you truly believe that Mohammad is a prophet, then I have a bridge in St Louise that I would like to sell you. A prophet prophesizes. What prophecies did Mohammad prophecy?
This is a man who took advantage of the ignorance of the desert people of Hijaz to amass a tremendous wealth and a troop of slaves, wives and concubines. He authored a political ideology that he masqueraded as the commands of Allah simply to gain power and wealth.
Many of his followers had over time tried to emulate his successes. The Mahdi of Sudan , the Sunusi in Libya, the Hashemite in Syria and the Wahabis in Arabia. None had near his success because people are not as ignorant now as during the 7th Century.
He got his way with the ignorant primitive Arab tribesmen by claiming to be receiving messages from Allah, the creator of heaven and earth and everything in them. That is no reason why people living in the 21st Century who had conquered space, splitted the atom and fused hydrogen to duplicate the sun should give any credence to the fairy tales he propagated among the nomads.
You say you believe in the Muslim God because he is “different.” Is hating the Jews whom he describes as pigs and monkeys and hating Christians whom he describe as those who went astray what you mean by “different". Or discriminating against women by describing them as deficient in intelligence and in religion is what you mean by ”different”? .

Not sure I understand... did you get the horse before the cart? Sounds like you accepted that Muhammad was a prophet, therefore you accepted that GOD existed. Don't quite see how you got to the first acceptance without having accepted the second first, ie believe in God before believing that Muhammad was a prophet.

concerned

have you ever read anything other than christianity and anti-islam books?

they say a wo/man is known by the books s/he reads. that surely applies to you to a tee.

life seen from a single prism. try shifting your angle and seeing the box from another angle. you might discover another side?

still that depends you you if you choose to be stuck inside the box. no one else can pull you out if you choose to stay there.

that is the sum of god i know. he has given us this freedom to move around the box and some choose to stay inside it.

here is a tip. when you choose to move around the box, you actually discover it is not a box but a circle and when you choose to circumnavigate this circle you find there is no circle either.

there is nothing but you and god operates thro you. it is sad that some choose to lock up this god that is in them inside a non-existent box. such is the illusion of the fools. still we need the fools to teach us a thing or two.

perhaps now you can drop the cut and paste and come out of that box. let us see your true face. pleeeeeeeze. this cat and mouse game is getting tedious. am off to bed to read my favourite book.

the little prince.

Oops, forgot two very important favorite books i.e.

1. Salman (recently knighted) Rushdie's The Satanic Verses

and

2. Hirsi Ali's Infidel.

Assalamu Alaikum,
Imam Pamela Taylor,

It was really the stories as related by my paternal grandmother on Mulla Nasrudin, which in retrospect, made my brothers, sister and I really interested in Islam and changed our life thus.

When we were young, the stories of Mulla Nasrudin are so much more interesting, mind-opening, mind teasing, funnier and truer to life than Cinderella or Snow White.

Mulla Nasrudin's stories opened our minds and hearts to the Qur'an and the Prophet's message, on spiritual and practical Islam, on the world as it is, and how best to pursue the Right Path in life.

I don't know of any compilations of Mulla Nasrudin stories in the west except those by Idries Shah which I have seen in western bookshops.

Salam

"J"

1. Historical Jesus Theories, earlychristianwritings.com/theories.htm -- the names of many of the contemporary historical Jesus scholars and the titles of their over 100 books on the subject.

2. Early Christian Writings, earlychristianwritings.com/
-- a list of early Christian documents to include the year of publication
30-60 CE Passion Narrative
40-80 Lost Sayings Gospel Q
50-60 1 Thessalonians
50-60 Philippians
50-60 Galatians
50-60 1 Corinthians
50-60 2 Corinthians
50-60 Romans
50-60 Philemon
50-80 Colossians
50-90 Signs Gospel
50-95 Book of Hebrews
50-120 Didache
50-140 Gospel of Thomas
50-140 Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel
50-200 Sophia of Jesus Christ
65-80 Gospel of Mark
70-100 Epistle of James
70-120 Egerton Gospel
70-160 Gospel of Peter
70-160 Secret Mark
70-200 Fayyum Fragment
70-200 Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
73-200 Mara Bar Serapion
80-100 2 Thessalonians
80-100 Ephesians
80-100 Gospel of Matthew
80-110 1 Peter
80-120 Epistle of Barnabas
80-130 Gospel of Luke
80-130 Acts of the Apostles
80-140 1 Clement
80-150 Gospel of the Egyptians
80-150 Gospel of the Hebrews
80-250 Christian Sibyllines
90-95 Apocalypse of John
90-120 Gospel of John
90-120 1 John
90-120 2 John
90-120 3 John
90-120 Epistle of Jude
93 Flavius Josephus
100-150 1 Timothy
100-150 2 Timothy
100-150 Titus
100-150 Apocalypse of Peter
100-150 Secret Book of James
100-150 Preaching of Peter
100-160 Gospel of the Ebionites
100-160 Gospel of the Nazoreans
100-160 Shepherd of Hermas
100-160 2 Peter

3. Historical Jesus Studies, faithfutures.org/HJstudies.html,
-- "an extensive and constantly expanding literature on historical research into the person and cultural context of Jesus of Nazareth"

4. Jesus Database, faithfutures.org/JDB/intro.html--"The JESUS DATABASE is an online annotated inventory of the traditions concerning the life and teachings of Jesus that have survived from the first three centuries of the Common Era. It includes both canonical and extra-canonical materials, and is not limited to the traditions found within the Christian New Testament."

5. Josephus on Jesus mtio.com/articles/bissar24.htm

6. The Jesus Seminar, mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/seminar.html#Criteria

7. Writing the New Testament- mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/testament.html

8. Health and Healing in the Land of Israel By Joe Zias
joezias.com/HealthHealingLandIsrael.htm

9. Economics in First Century Palestine, K.C. Hanson and D. E. Oakman, Palestine in the Time of Jesus, Fortress Press, 1998.

10. 7. The Gnostic Jesus
(Part One in a Two-Part Series on Ancient and Modern Gnosticism)
by Douglas Groothuis: equip.org/free/DG040-1.htm

11. The interpretation of the Bible in the Church, Pontifical Biblical Commission
Presented on March 18, 1994
ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PBCINTER.HTM#2

12. The Jesus Database- newer site:
wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php?title=Jesus_Database

13. Jesus Database with the example of Supper and Eucharist:
faithfutures.org/JDB/jdb016.html

14. Josephus on Jesus by Paul Maier:
mtio.com/articles/bissar24.htm

15. The Journal of Higher Criticism with links to articles on the Historical Jesus:
mtio.com/articles/bissar24.htm

16. The Greek New Testament: laparola.net/greco/

17. Diseases in the Bible:
etd.unisa.ac.za/ETD-db/theses/available/etd-08022006-125807/unrestricted/02dissertation.pdf
18. Religion on Line (6000 articles on the history of religion, churches, theologies,
theologians, ethics, etc.
religion-online.org/

19. The Jesus Seminarians and their search for NT authenticity:
mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/seminar.html#Criteria

20. The New Testament Gateway - Internet NT ntgateway.com/

21. Writing the New Testament- existing copies, oral tradition etc.
ntgateway.com/

22. The Search for the Historic Jesus by the Jesus Seminarians:
members.aol.com/DrSwiney/seminar.html

23. Jesus Decoded by Msgr. Francis J. Maniscalco (Da Vinci Code review)jesusdecoded.com/introduction.php

24. JD Crossan's scriptural references for his book the Historical Jesus separted into time periods: faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan1.rtf

25. JD Crossan's conclusions about the authencity of most of the NT based on the above plus the conclusions of other NT exegetes in the last 200 years:
faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan2.rtf

26. Common Sayings from Thomas's Gospel and the Q Gospel: faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan3.rtf

27. Early Jewish Writings- Josephus and his books by title with the complete translated work in English :earlyjewishwritings.com/josephus.html

28. Luke and Josephus- was there a connection?
infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/lukeandjosephus.html

29. NT and beyond time line:
pbs.org/empires/peterandpaul/history/timeline/

30. St. Paul's Time line with discussion of important events:
harvardhouse.com/prophetictech/new/pauls_life.htm

31. See www.amazon.com for a list of JD Crossan's books and those of the other Jesus Seminarians: Reviews of said books are included and selected pages can now be viewed on Amazon. Some books can be found on-line at Google Books.

32. Father Edward Schillebeeckx's words of wisdom as found in his books.

33. The books of the following other On Faith panelists: Professors Marcus Borg, Paula Fredriksen, Karen Armstrong and Bishop NT Wright.

34. Father Raymond Brown's An Introduction to the New Testament, Doubleday, NY, 1977, 878 pages, with Nihil obstat and Imprimatur.

35. Luke Timothy Johnson's book The Real Jesus,

"If there were such a thing as God, then it was indeed different from anything we knew. God was not some big guy in sky, nor was God some amorphous being that was basically synonymous with Nature, nor was it some collection of spirits assigned to different parts of nature or different aspects of the human personality."

Why's it so hard for some people to get the concepts of 'Different from' and 'Different *and?*'

I wonder.

Certainly not a 'Big guy in the sky claiming, I am all that am,' I suppose, but people who put inspirational posters on their wall about the 'Majesty of God' as experienced through feeling surf beating on the beach, start crying 'Heretic' if you point out that ain't necessarily connected to tribal laws about some man's weewee. :)

So many people looking for 'One Truth' will be out there crying, 'All Or Nothing, therefore Anything Is Either Everything or Nothing!'

Someone with a book they claim is 'synonymous with God' is always out there saying I think 'God' is 'synonymous with Nature.'

It's sure the other way around, too Nature, certainly is not 'not God' just cause that's too untidy for some.

Maybe it's easy to think God and humanity are separate from Nature when the Nature in those places appears to be a wasteland where only authority keeps people alive against scarcity, but that's not the whole world, either.

You don't need a pillar of fire and strict discipline to keep you from making a slight deviation from 'where food and water are,' when hearing a rabbit will do.

Busy place like a forest, though, you're just as dead if you can't hear the rabbit.

Sometimes I think the obscene destruction we've witnessed for so long from monotheists has been all about trying to *make the world as simple as a desert thought.*

Now.

I've certainly had *my* snivelling nose wiped by some Mighty beings, (Spoiled rotten, if you asked me, not that I'm complaining) But, none of this means that denying the personal element brings one closer, or that denying the 'Absolute' element makes it more personal... conflating the two seems to be how people are willing to kill for dogmatic absolutes, though.

Ever actually face down a fanatic? In person?

Sure, maybe they'll say it's all about absolutes and ultimate God' and yadda yadda.

It's always personal.

Hey Pamela:
The Flying Spaghetti Monster is different.
Are you now going to join the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Or would require an unbelievably simplistic view of things?