Sound Bites Replacing Thought, Truth

Dear church people,
these are interesting comments as you come from 'accross the pond' and I am an aiehist.
Tied to get a copy of the Koran over the internet and could not find a definitive one, not least as I got a lot of malwhare. My Gandad read the Koran as,obvissoly ( cannot spell, despiite a degree in stories))
Appart, from a Mr Wright **** though he might have been well-minded that you have the same sytem of those those that have much and those that what to clig on to it.
I don't know much about Amarican piltcs but Hilary did challange the big medicacal etasblislment.
Agaian I am not a church person but I would not denounce somone that use that that to the better ment of others. Was Rev Jhon's effort entirely done to his friends or a higher calling?

Dear church people,
these are interesting comments as you come from 'accross the pond' and I am an aiehist.
Tied to get a copy of the Koran over the internet and could not find a definitive one, not least as I got a lot of malwhare. My Gandad read the Koran as,obvissoly ( cannot spell, despiite a degree in stories))
Appart, from a Mr Wright **** though he might have been well-minded that you have the same sytem of those those that have much and those that what to clig on to it.
I don't know much about Amarican piltcs but Hilary did challange the big medicacal etasblislment.
Agaian I am not a church person but I would not denounce somone that use that that to the better ment of others. Was Rev Jhon's effort entirely done to his friends or a higher calling?

Hmmm, the infamous, degrading, yucky BJ!!! And the cause for the resurrection of the religious Right Wing. That BJ cost Gore the election!! And considering Billy's history, it was not the first. Something else our intelligence community failed to know about or did they????

I mean, not to spoil any illusions of it being '50/50,' or nothing, CCNL, but you *do* realize of course that the conservative Congress in the Clinton administration was wasting the most prosperous years of American history over a BJ for years before the notorious BJ actually *occurred?*

Better Google 'obstructionism' before you call it '50/50,' CCNL. Unfortunately, it seems humans are involved in those numbers.

Paganplace,

Google can do it faster than I can. It would appear to be about 50/50 Democrat and Republican at first glance with the Democrats in charge of the Big One.

Don't suppose, CCNL, you could be bothered to actually... 'Deflaw' your own characterization of what among your little list there was 'Democratic' and what was 'Republican,' rather than trying to say it was all 'Democratic and Republican' now that it's all gone to crap and basically had a half-term somewhere back in the late Nineties where it wasn't a Republican bully pulpit?

Wafa Sultan gives a brave and honest critique of Islam..

"Wafa Sultan speaks in an interview broadcast from Cyprus-based al-Hayat TV. She criticizes accentuations of the negative in Islamic culture in the Arab world and what she perceives to be their roots. She offers a few words for Yusuf al-Qaradhawi, the conservative cleric who lambasted her for her March debate appearance on al-Jazeera. Wafa further criticizes other aspects of Islam that she believes to be wrong."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p92uOTF6Tho

An update (or how we are spending or how past and current Democratic and Republican administrations have spent USA taxpayers’ money to eliminate global terror and aggression)

The terror and aggression via a Partial and Recent Body Count

1) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto

2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, 4056 US troops and 83,521 – 91,094 Iraqi civilians iraqbodycount.org/

4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

8) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

Other elements of our War on Terror:

1. Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes.

2. Iran is being been contained. (beside containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

3. Libya has become almost civil. Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they recently threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world!!! or is he??

4. North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. With the opening up of rail traffic between North and South Korea after 50 years and with the assistance of the US Navy in retrieving NK ships and personnel, a fresh sense of civility is afoot. One of the most eminent US cultural institutions, the New York Philharmonic Orchestra, has performed a landmark concert in North Korea.

The concert included music by Western composers and a Korean folk song, and was broadcast live on local television.

Unfortunately, North Korea’s apparent move toward peace did not last long as they fired test missiles recently and threatened South Korea with military action.

5. Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

6. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords and the Annapolis Peace Conference is at least somewhat successful.

7. Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

8. Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghahistan and Pakistan.

9.Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

10. Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

11. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

12. Islamic Sudan, Darfur and Somalia are still terror hot spots.

13. The terror and torture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends.

14. And of course the bloody terror brought about the Japanese, Nazis and Communists was with great difficulty eliminated by the good guys.

"Now we see USA wanting to set up permanent bases in Iraq, contrary to what Rumsfeld said after invasion and we knew full well he was lying."

Well, a good number of Americans knew he was lying, too, but the Bush administration has decided it can play by its own 'rules,' despite the wishes of the American people. This bunch of liars is getting their walking papers, soon, and four years too late, ('Swiftboat' liars have much to do with them not having been out on their behinds in 2004.) They're a national disgrace.

" Poor Americans, they believe everything their presidents tell them and then they point to our silly imams who have no influence on how I live and most of us have no say in our governments anyway. Thanks to US appointed stooges."

Actually, the royalty in Saudi Arabia and other places have often been caught deflecting the blame for their own injustices onto America, but the Ibn Sauds have been in bed with the Bushes a long time. Our current President had a history of being handed corporations to run, tanking them, and being bailed out or handed another by the Ibn Sauds, and they've been a big part of supporting his presidency with money and the like, while encouraging their own people to blame America for everything.

Don't worry, a huge lot of Americans despise what's happened to our country in the past eight years, and it's become extremely difficult to cover up the fact that it's been a disaster: economically, socially, and militarily.

Added education for Mr. Obama in case he should become President of the USA:

"Imam Muqtada Al-Sadr threatens to launch Intifada" and he controls one of the strongest Shiite militias in Iraq. And of course he is supported theologically and monetarily by that Axis of Evil, Iran and its imams and ayatollahs.

asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=391

And yet here we have Ahmed and the Reality Challenged, Obfuscating Jihadist telling us no one pays attention to imams and clerics?? Give us a break!!

And Ahmed, you noted: "As for 911 it was the result of 50 years of American interference in Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Middle East. The only surprise is that it came so late!"

Interference as in buying oil instead of taking it like the Nazis would have done had they won WWII?? Interference as in saving the Muslims in Kuwait, Bosnia and Kosovo??

Hmmm, maybe the US Congressional rep had a valid point when he suggested a nuking of Mecca for Muslim terror activities in the past 50 years .

And the USA has appointed stooges to run Bahrain? References and names please!!!

And Mr. Obama, a suggested campaign slogan:

"No one is safe until the koran is deflawed, mosques are "febrezed" and the 800 million Sunnis and 200 million Shiites and their clerics, imams and ayatollahs are pacified!!!!

Let me just add my two piece worth of information.

Most of us in the Middle East do not give much attention to what moftis, mullahs, ayatullahs or any such men of cloth say. They say a lot of stuff and over the years people have heard it all and such gatherings have become more of a social event than worship.

Most people hold political discourse in tea houses. I think it is very healthy that many do not give a darn what these guys say. Its all about politics and nothing to do with religion.

Take the fatwa on Rushdi's life by Khumaeini. Sure it scared the pants of him but we did not see bogey men going around trying to hunt him down. Only the crazy ones do that.

As for 911 it was the result of 50 years of American interference in Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Middle East. The only surprise is that it came so late!

Now we see USA wanting to set up permanent bases in Iraq, contrary to what Rumsfeld said after invasion and we knew full well he was lying. Poor Americans, they believe everything their presidents tell them and then they point to our silly imams who have no influence on how I live and most of us have no say in our governments anyway. Thanks to US appointed stooges.

Now Monte Cristo will fire back with his usual cut and paste rant. I had better duck.

Hello Ibrahim Mahfouz,

Sorry I missed your post before to me due to JJ's and CCNL's long multiple posts.

Of course I am chiding you. Now you are saying you don't really go to mosques around the world but to listen/see the sermons on satellite TV?

And now you saying, "I do not need to know all the languages of the world to know what imams preach in their mosques. I know the source from where they derive their “sermons”."

Did your satellite TV with 87 channels also tells you Muslims are relying less and less on scholars/interpreters of yore and coming up with new interpretations on the Qur'an and Islam too whether one agree or not with them?

So, you think Arabs "discourage the others from translating it into their languages to manipulate and control them?" It is not also the French and the English who'd rather others to learn their language rather than learn the languages of others as being "civilised". The French thinks that to be "cultured" is to know French too. I don't see any problens in wanting to learn Arabic as I do to learn French or English. Better for me. More advantageous for me.

And now down to, "And what happens after the virgins lose their virginity? Will they be recycled or would their shelf lives expire?"

Ah, just like A Kafir and Deb Chatterjee. Poke and probe a wee bit re their "expertise" on Islam and Muslims and they came back a bit, er, "unhinged" on their "scholarship"?

So now we know your "expertise", on Islam and Muslims, is among others, is gleaned from 87 channels, translated texts of the "Koran", YouTube etc without having to leave the house?

But, never mind. We need people like you here to share your "expertise" and views on Islam and Muslims. Do carry on in On Faith with your posts. I enjoy reading them before and will in your subsequent comments in On Faith.

Cheers
"J"

Accusing more people of a crime does not bring justice, JJ.

"In this, Crossan is correct. Christianity is a pre-Judean throwback to human sacrifice, and worse."

Well, many other places have had similar sacrificed Gods/demigods/mythic figures/etc, the way they read Christianity at least these days is just kind of an inversion of the practice of representing the grain as a sacrificed God, ...instead the Christian idea is based on the sacrifice of an actual *man* of a divine child to appease an angry God, and using the grain as a substitute for *that.*

Appropriate some Jewish scripture out of context and call it 'One Architectural Truth' to some of the rationalistic absolutism going around Greece at the time, (Great stuff, your Plato and Aristotle, but they did have their flaws, at least after the Church had custody a thousand years or so, ... like deciding it was a more 'elegant' idea as we'd say now, to insist that mice spontaneously-generate from dirt than to actually notice they, err, have sex. )

The disposition of sacrifices, even animal ones, was actually one of the big controversies in the Pagan world at the time, for the same reason Jesus is said to have gotten all punk rock on the 'moneychangers,' who happen to have been selling animal sacrifices in the temple of Jerusalem, too.

Likewise, allegations of human sacrifice were used in 'Pagan' countries to justify *wars of extermination,* such as against Carthage and certain Celtic tribes. This was clearly *revolting* to peoples often portrayed as 'human sacrificers,' whereas, actually, the horrors of the Coliseum Christians like to talk about went on for three hundred years after Christianity was made official, and actually had been periodically-outlawed several times by Pagan potentates.

It's much more complicated than the 'morality play' of the modern idea of Rome, mostly a picture of decadence painted by puritanical Victorians and made popular in *film,* while literate folks were reading Cicero's orations and knowing that Pagan Roman pietas was as staid as they liked to think of themselves.

It's likely that early Christians found the idea of one sacrifice of a man to appease a wrathful God appealing, but they were mainly slaves, and the Gnostics and those who were brutally-suppressed by later authoritarians weren't necessarily so far away from their contemporaries, in many respects. They weren't necessarily reading any Bible or Torah, or spouting but celebrating a sacred King, one might imagine, or maybe they were the dangerous atheistic cult some at the time thought of them, (yes, disbelieving in Gods and worshiping an executed subversive was greeted about like the average American thinks of Rastafarians dropping out and revering Hailie Selassie, without the bobsled team.)

Even the word 'Christ' comes from the Eleusinian Mysteries, and if you know what those are, the mythic structure of the Jesus thing really doesn't have to be so far off-base, or so much about human sacrifice and hellfire and politics and control...

Something happened to it.

And it's very much about *those* times, not *these*-times-portrayed-as-yet-again-the-Ultimate-End-
Of-The-World-Really-For-Real-This-Time-We-Mean-It...

Kind of funny, cause someone being called a 'Christos' used to mean just the...

*wink.*

Don't panic. :)

There is, indeed, something obscene about positing a god, so miserable that he would send his only begotten son to earth to be tortured to death as a human sacrifice.

In this, Crossan is correct. Christianity is a pre-Judean throwback to human sacrifice, and worse.

"It is amazing that you identified and picked up on this truth "'Double, Triple" blogger I.D.ng and then answering to same selves.""

I'm not sure *just* who you're talking about, there, Anonymous, but if it's 'truth' you're interested in, this is the only screen name I ever, ever post under.

Nor do I cut and paste even my own stuff, particularly not to every thread on the board, every time.

I type pretty fast, but not fast enough to do more than this, even as much time as I spend in a chair.

Really, now.

Check it out.

Literalists have a curious obsession with whether or not ghosts exist, for varying reasons mostly involving them not fitting so well with either a monotheist or mechanistic worldview,

...Curiously little interest in knowing what to do besides freaking out when someone experiences one.

But, well, people like to be scared, I guess.

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated: has destroyed all ghosts. There goes the ghost of Christmas past right down the toilet.

There's big money to be made seeing things that people can believe in. Did you buy your copy of Joe's book yet? Then how can you say there are no ghosts?

What else are you going to do to wreck the economy? I suppose there are no UFOs either. Did you buy all of their books and read them? No? I thought so. You don't know what people have seen so how can you say it isn't so? Yeah, sure, there are no UFOs or ghosts. What else don't you believe? How un-blessed can it get.

Blessed is he who has not seen yet believes. Send your donation to the address at the bottom of your television screen. Never forget, "it is harder for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God than for a camel to get through the eye of a needle." You did want to go to heaven when you die and become a ghost yourself? Hell awaits the non believer.

lIB
hERE IS JUST ONE OF MANY LINKS ON THE INTERNET DEALIBG WITH GHOST RESEARCH.

http://www.ghostvillage.com/

Joe, Joe, Joe,

And you also buy into the raising of Lazarus myth? i.e. a single passage in the NT and only in John's gospel. Strange how P, M, M, and L were not aware of one of the simple preacher man's greatest "miracles".

And using appendicitis and invisible hand waves as examples of raising brain dead people back life? Give us a break!!!!

And measuring ghost "fields"? References please!!!

Lib quotes a certain Crossan:
"In terms of divine consistency, I do not think that anyone, anywhere, at any time, including Jesus, brings dead people back to life."

I, too, do not think that Crossan is a credible authority on anything. I know of many cases where people died and where revived back to life. Few years ago people died whenever their appendix was infected. Today this is a simple procedure. Couldn’t we consider those who survive appendix operations today as dead who by simple scientific manipulation came back to life. Few years ago people used to boast that they do not believe in what they do not see. Television waves are invisible yet is there anyone today who deny their existence? Many normal people have felt an invisible hand that led them during critical times. Those who scoff at the supernatural never believed in ghosts. That is until scientists measured their fields by film, tape, thermometer and voltmeters. It is good to be critically minded but being closed minded is a totally different issue.

Pfleger and Wright's rants were no "sound bites"
They both went on for a long time and Wright relished the opportunity to continue at the Press Club. These were hateful racist incitements to jumping-up-and-down-and-cheering against whitey.

No person who calls himself or herself "religious" can honestly make weak, complicated excuses for their behavior.

Mo, Mo, Mo,

You should spend more time coming to grips with the "fems" of Islam.

With respect to your take on "atonement theology" within Christianity, a contemporary review:

"Moreover, an atonement theology that says God sacrifices his own son in place of humans who needed to be punished for their sins might make some Christians love Jesus, but it is an obscene picture of God. It is almost heavenly child abuse, and may infect our imagination at more earthly levels as well. I do not want to express my faith through a theology that pictures God demanding blood sacrifices in order to be reconciled to us."

"Traditionally, Christians have said, 'See how Christ's passion was foretold by the prophets." Actually, it was the other way around. The Hebrew prophets did not predict the events of Jesus' last week; rather, many of those Christian stories were created to fit the ancient prophecies in order to show that Jesus, despite his execution, was still and always held in the hands of God."

"In terms of divine consistency, I do not think that anyone, anywhere, at any time, including Jesus, brings dead people back to life."

Professor JD Crossan, an On Faith Panelist, from his book, Who is Jesus.

Hmmm, the Reality Challenged and Obfuscating Jihadist has now moved to translation problems within Islam. What has not been "lost in translation" ,however, are the "fems" i.e. the flaws, errors, muck and stench, of Islam.

For those that may have forgotten, The Fems of Islam:

1. Belief in "pretty (gay?)/ugly wingie thingies".

2. Belief that an hallucinating, illiterate Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the hot "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words and resultant laws now listed in the koran.

3 That Shiites are less than human or Sunnis are less than human depending on what Islamic cult you belong to.

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7, 800 year-old blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites gives significant credence that greed, hate, suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran. Having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of rape, adultery, lust and polygamy. The condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of hatred, anger and greed.

guilt by association.

for so god love the world he nailed his only begotten son on the cross for the sin of mankind??????????????????????????????????

the blood of the lamb is attached to every human neck?????????????

my god is jewish carpenter?????????????????

the son is the way the truth and life????????????

god is 3 the father the son and the holy spirit?????????????????????????????????

the mass laity take their sin and problems to the pope and the pope take it to peter and peter take it god???????????????

this kind of mentality created the mentality of independism and the mentality of hierarchyism thru a chain of none but mankind thru none but human figures who they are food eaters and market place goers.

according to the above mentality ,every man is attached to the bibilo-cord of his/her pastor every man is attached to the preist of the shrine! .every man is labeld by his pastor ?socrate died on the cross of philosiphy by drinking hemlock,(conspiracey theory!!!!!!!!!!!) do the rest of philosiphers follow socrate?

the lost childern of isreal they got lost not because they belive in god but because they exchanged god for human figuers.

colorism is the son of the above mentality.
secularism is the son of the above mentality.

people are one nation under god ,until they deviate from the path of god .

Yes JJ,

I hear you.

As for English "translations", there are those by Alexander Ross (an English grammar teacher from the French translation by Andre du Ryer), George Sale, Reverend J.M. Rodwell (with obvious strong Biblical perspective) , E.H. Palmer, Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall (a vicar's son), Abdullah Yusuf Ali (Indian Muslim), Arthur J. Arberry (a bit more closer to the original), N.J. Dawood (most simple version), Muhammad Asad (an Austrian). Ahmed Ali (a Pakistani), N.J. Dawood (an Iraqi) Well, these are the most known ones.

Muslims themselves, if they don’t know Arabic, but knows English and no “credible” “translation” in their mother tongue seem to love the ones by Abdullah Yusuf Ali and Pickthall the best.

They all are different, even for that most common preceding phrase of all prayers and Suras (the Bismillah.....with such translated versions in English:

* In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful

* In the Name of God, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy.

* In the Name of God, most benevolent, ever merciful

* In the name of God, the Beneficent, the Merciful

Even Arabs had difficulty understanding the old classical Arabic text of the Qur’an. Much like Shakespeare’s or Chauncer’s English.

The “Lo” and “Behold” translations makes me wince sometimes even if they make for nice stylistic reading capturing the essence of the original as best as possible though it does watered down some parts for simplicity and clarity.

Yeah well, we may all be “ALL are LOST in TRANSLATiON” and hairs-splitting on translations.

I know a person who has an English translation of Marcel Proust’s “Remembrance of Things Past”. He saw another Marcel Proust multi-volume book called, “In Search of Lost Time” and bought it, not knowing it’s the same book being translated in slightly different way in English from the French. More close to the original. Even the opening sentence is slightly different.

Cheers

Bgone:

Christians make me worry. Oil-gate 1 made me worry. The First WTC made me worry as did WTC2, as does oil-gate 2.

As for Barack, his church makes me worry far less than his Christian Carterite advisors who gave us the current Middle East crisis. Barack all along has been pure Zbignew Brezsinksi, an 80 year old dinosaur, Carter's secretary of state, of the Iran hostage secretary of state, BO's Carterite foreign policy advisor.

Osama trained by the AmeriChristians makes me nervous. Israel "leaked" the information about the first WTC disaster to the whitehouse before it happened. Friend, that didn't make me nervous.

AmeriChristians let the WTC get hit. Now, that made me nervous. Second time, used it as an excuse to gather up oil in Iraq. Killed a lot of people. Still killed them. Makes me nervous.

Maybe, it's just me, friend. But the AmeriChristians make me nervous. Whether they tithe or not.

Jihadist is chiding me again:
“If you want to state what Muslim imams “said” in their sermons in mosques around the world, do so correctly. I still have really doubt you know that many languages to make such claims.”
Moi:
I do not need to know all the languages of the world to know what imams preach in their mosques. I know the source from where they derive their “sermons”.
“And fight them on
Until there is no more
Tumult or oppression
And there prevail
Justice and Faith in God”
(Q uran 2:193)
Ibn Ishaq explained this as when Islam is the only religion.
Almost every satellite channel I receive, and I receive a total of 87 channels, broadcast at least one Friday sermon a week. It is true that most are Arab channels but a book can be known from its cover. Islam is a religion started by the Arabs and spread by them and mainly for them and that is why they discourage the others from translating it into their languages to manipulate and control them.
No matter what the sermon is it is always concluded with a series of curses. A sample is “Oh Allah defeat the Unbelievers, make their wives widows and their children orphans. Oh Allah make the burning Hell their final abode. Make the religion of Islam victorious over the nations of the infidels……"
With minor permutations the gist of their sermons are the three topics I had mentioned earlier.
1. Fight the "Unbelievers" till Islam is the only religion.
2. Establish the Sharia(Koran and Hadith; tradition of the Prophet) as the law of the land.
3. Details of the horrors awaiting the Unbelievers and the rewards Allah is preparing for the Believers i.e. Paradise with gardens crisscrossed by rivers of wine, milk and honey and populated by black-eyed voluptuous nymphs etc.

I am sorry for mistaking you for a man. It never occurred to me that a woman would be defending the Muslims' paradise. Since you seem to know so much about paradise (plus five languages) would you tell me what women would be doing when their husbands are cavorting with the voluptuous black- eyed virgins? And what happens after the virgins lose their virginity? Will they be recycled or would their shelf lives expire?
I did not mention the number 72 as the number of nymphs allotted to each "Believer” because it is not mentioned in the Qur’an but is mentioned in the Hadith by Termezi. Do you have a problem with this number?

Curious:, Friend: - Now which one of you am I to believe?

9-11-2001 the first words of our president after the attack were, "go to your churches, temples, synagogues, mosques and pray."

Does oil have anything to do with religion? Was the US government given a "heads up" by Israel that the announcement concerning an attack by Israel on Iran would be made? Was that announcement necessary? Did the Bush gang suggest it, their idea even? What besides a record up increment in the price of oil did it accomplish? Does the Bush administration "leak" information? To anyone and everyone or only to insiders? How about the Israeli government? Does it leak?

If I had been told 24 hours in advance about that announcement I could have made at least 10 million dollars yesterday. A piker with a $2,500 "no risk" investment could have turned it into a million.

They're rolling loaded dice and playing for the lives, the economic well being of ordinary Americans that were led by evangelicals, (serving God or Devil?) to vote for them.

Lies are not one of the 7 deadly sins you know. Lies that cause people to believe, (WMDs in Iraq, Moses and Pat Robertson spoke to God...) are moral. Lies that cause people to believe get liars elected and make ministries rich, (tax free, tax deductible and tax exempt). There's no better place to learn top caliber lying than church where lies are moral, but greed is a deadly sin so give till it hurts. Feel the pain yet? Given enough yet? Wanna go for $150 oil?

Pay attention. Barak Obama does not belong to a church. Have a look at those who are all worried sick about that. Who, me worry? Laughter adds 8 years to your life according to near bankrupt sub prime lender AIG.

test

Bgone writes;

Case in point - did anyone know Israel was going to announce that something had to be done about Iran's nuclear program this morning driving the price of oil up record increment? No? Why was there so much "short covering" yesterday? What has happened to those who did not get the word the announcement would be made? Think about that the next time you fill it up.

But this has nothing to do with religion. Nor even profit, as did our invasion of Iraq, although the Christians arising against the infidels does come to mind.

It took the US seven months to provide evidence that Syria was indeed involved in atomic weapons development. Had Israel not taken out Iraq's nuclear program thirty years ago, we (Christians) may not have been in the happy position of invading said country and driving oil prices through the ceiling.

More to the point: The AmeriChristians and EuroChristians have supported the worst, the most miserable thieving dictators in the Middle EAst for oil. The electric car, forget about hyprids, has been a possibility since the 1950s. It would present certain problems, but the most important appear to be the loss of Christian oil assets.

A related example: When Christians train an Osama bin Laden, promising him they will leave Saudi Arabia and do not, bad things happen. REligion: Christianity forms the basis of first-world entitlement. It seems to get a lot of people killed, in its endless quest, its lust for money.

Case in point.

And again the Reality Challenged and Obfuscating Jihadist and her imams and clerics still cannot come to grips with the "fems" (flaws, errors, muck and stench) of Islam!!!!!!

Revisiting recent history:

Well let us see how your road to Reality is proceeding via gleaning your previous commentaries about atheists and anti-theists.

The previous request and questions:
"The echoes of your mind still need a bit of sound adjustment as to what you hold true:

1. the existence of "pretty and ugly flying thingies" (a required tenet of Islam)???
-still no response- tough one -what do you teach your children about these "thingies"??

2. the koran being based on the hallucinations of one long dead Arab????
-still no response- another tough one since the if you agree there would be no foundation for Islam.

3. the correct side of the Sunni-Shiite 800 year old blood feud???

It appears you take no sides although you are a Sunni and have the upper Islamic economic hammer in most Islamic countries.

4. theocracies, good or bad???

-You apparently dislike theocracies but you live in Malaysia which is fast becoming a theocracy. Have you sent letters of complaint to your government officials and clerics??

5. the sins of being Islamic??? (false "profits", greed, anger, lust, polygamy, warmongering, suicide)??

- I guess if you cannot see the problems of Islam, there is no sin but the koran's passages ooze of said sins.

6. Islamic scribes plagiarizing the codes, passages and ways of the ancients even the anti-female passages of "Prude Paul"?????

- Again, you still adhere to the "Islam is perfect" mantra so this is a problem for you to grasp. Some courses in ancient history should help you come to grips with Reality.

"O Gabriel, gay Gabriel wherefore art thou Gabriel ????"

Ibrahim Mahfouz,

I was hoping you’d come back with the Suras related to paradise so I’ll evaluate from them on you. And you did. Sooner than I thought. Let us probe you some more.

I see that you did a bit of a homework on Suras related to paradise. Some of the Suras you quoted were wrongly numbered, and you quoted them all over without concern for even sequences for an expert. I’ll have to rely on my mind in remembering those Suras then. But, never mind. Even “experts” on Islam and the Qur’an do make slips when typing.

It is obvious to me what you quoted is less graphic than what is stated in the Qur’an in Arabic, and thus are from an English “translation”.

There are maidens, not “nymphs”. They are incomparable companions, virginal, loving, high breasted companions of matching age. There are cushions and carpets, there are brocades and silk garments, but not “silk tents”. Good thing you did not embellish that the imams in mosques all around the world said all Muslims will get “72 virgins”.

There are private gardens, there are vineyards, there are date palms and pomegranates. There are thornless lote trees and clustered acadias. There are flowing streams of wine, milk and honey. There are ginger drinks from a spring, there are white coloured drinks. There are constant references to pure drink - non-intoxicating, headiness.

Good exercise on quotes from an English “translation” but let me give you here a closer approximation of some Suras you quoted:

Sura 22: 23 - 24

But God will admit those who believe and do good deeds to Gardens graced with flowing streams: there they be adorned with golden bracelets and pearls; there they will have silken garments. They will be guided to good speech and to the path of the One Worthy of all Praise

Sura 44:51 – 56

But those mindful of God will be in a safe place amid Gardens and springs, clothed in silk and fine brocade, facing one another: so it will be. We shall wed them to maidens with large dark eyes. Secure and contented, they will call for every kind of fruit. After the one death they will taste death no more. God will guard from the torment of Hell, a bounty from your Lord. This is the supreme triumph.

Sura 56 :11 to 56: 26

For these will be the ones brought nearest to God in the Garden of Bliss : many from the past and a few from later generations, On couches of well-woven cloth, they sit facing each other; everlasting youths will go round among them with glasses, flagons, and a pure liquid that cause no headache or intoxication; there will be any fruit they want; the meat of any bird they like; and beautiful companions like hidden pearls : a reward for what they used to do. They will hear no idle or sinful talk there, only clean and wholesome speech.

--------------------------------------------------

So, not denying at all on your “claim” on the sermons you heard around the world by Muslim imams on the “three things” they all said?

Highly unlikely that Arabic is your mother tongue. A Middle Eastern Arab, Muslim or otherwise, would always use Qur’an instead of “Koran”, or for that matter, all Muslims regardless of their mother tongue.

So, how many Muslim countries have you actually been to? What are the sermons you actually heard in their native language/mother tongue? How many languages do you know? It is hard enough for me with five.

If you want to state what Muslim imams “said” in their sermons in mosques around the world, do so correctly. I still have really doubt you know that many languages to make such claims.

By the way, I am a she, not a he. Never assume. Never over-imagine. Not on text. Not on what Muslims “all over the world” said. So, ever wondered why Muslims in On Faith don’t take you seriously, but others do?

And oh, by the way, I was playing with you on “Non-believers” and “Unbelievers”. Peruse the Qur’an in Arabic and you will see that it is “Disbelievers” rather than “Unbelievers” or “Non-Believers” in English. Hair-splitting? Understand that and you will understand something more on Islam and Muslims.

So, which English “translation of the Qur’an were you, are you using? Or “Koran” for you?

Cheers
“J”

Jihadist chides me for letting my imagination fly when talking about the Muslim Paradise:
He says:

"And talking about paradise, letting your imagination fly on what the Suras stated in spicing them up with “nymphs”, “silk tents” and all?"
Moi:
The Qur’an description of Paradise are many and vivid. The blessed will be adorned “with bracelets of gold and pearls” (22:23) and “dresses in fine silk and in rich brocade”(44:53). He will recline “on green cushions and rich carpets of beauty” (55:76), sit on thrones encrusted with gold and precious stones” ( 56:15), and share in “dishes and goblets of gold”- on which would be “all that the souls could desire, all that their eyes could delight in,” including an “abundance of fruit” (43:71, 73) along with “dates and pomegranates” (55:68). There will also enjoy “the flesh of fowls, any that they may desire” (56:21). Paradise itself consists of “gardens, with rivers flowing beneath” (3:198; cf. 3:136; 13:35; 15:45; 22:23). In it are “two springs pouring forth water in continuous abundance”(55:66), along with “rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear”(47:15).
“Reclining in the Gardens on raised thrones, the blessed “will see there neither the sun’s excessive heat nor the moon’s excessive cold. And the shades of the Garden will come low over them, and the bunches of fruit, there , will hang low in humidity” (76:13-14).
And above all, of course, there will be “voluptuous women of equal age’ (78:31): “those of modest gaze, with lovely eyes” (37:48), “fair women with beautiful, big, and lustrous eyes” (44:54), “like unto rubies and coral” (55:56) to whom the blessed will be “joined” (52:20). These women would be “maidens, chaste, restraining their glances, whom no man or Jinn {spirit being} before them has touched”(55:56). Allah “made them virgins” (56:36). Also “round about them will serve, devoted to them, young male servants handsome as pearls well-guarded”(52:24), “youths of perpetual freshness”(56:17): “if thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered pearls”(76:19).
I ask: Is this my imagination? You flatter me!

And again the Reality Challenged and Obfuscating Jihadist and her imams and clerics still cannot come to grips with the "fems" (flaws, errors, muck and stench) of Islam!!!!!!

O Gabriel, gay Gabriel wherefore art thou Gabriel ????

Ibrahim Mahfouz,

Hello, hello, hello.

You : “I too have listened to many sermons by Imams around the world.”

* Where exactly? Abu Hamza’s sermons in London among them? “Imams” is never spelt with capital letters. It is not a personal noun or personal pronoun.

While prayers are in Arabic, sermons are in the native language or mother tongue of Muslims wherever they are. I take it that you know Bahasa Indonesia, Bahasa Malaysia, Farsi, Urdu, Swahili, Turkish, Kurdish among others and to name a few.

I take it that you know Arab-Muslims are about a quarter of Muslims in the world. More Southeast Malay- Muslims than Arab Muslims for one.
You stated imams all over the world to say: “Fight the "Unbelievers" till Islam is the only religion.”

* Referring to nuts like Abu Hamza in that mosque in London who said stuff like that? Why do you think he was forced to leave Egypt and be an exile in UK?

Muslims are too busy arguing among ourselves on the Shariah, on our corrupt or ineffective or repressive governments, eking out a decent life to even contemplate fighting “unbelievers” until they came into our countries illegally to “liberate” us and make life hell for us in getting “freedom”.

I am sure there are some really very irate imams in Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine saying to fight oppressors and occupiers of their countries who happened to be non-Muslims. There is a distinction between “non-believers” and “unbelievers” in Islam. If you know Islam as much as you said you do, you would know the differences on this.

Most flattering to state that Muslims think of nothing else but are to fight “unbelievers” till Islam is the “only” religion when Suras in the Qur’an never state Islam will prevail or dominate, that God created different nations and peoples, to you your belief and to me mine etc. And according to a Hadith, the Prophet stated there will be divisions and differences among Muslims too.

You stated imams all over the world to say: Establish the Sharia (Koran and Hadith; tradition of the Prophet) as the law of the land.

* Still can’t use the pronunciation correct Muslim spelling for Qur’an as an “expert” on Islam and Muslims? Imams are busy reminding Muslims to avoid vices, not to be seduced and lulled by excessive materialism to the point we forget our responsibilities to the wider community by acts of charities etc.

Also hectoring us to counter against corruption, abuse of power, and oppression by our governments and in ourselves for the community’s wider good. So, as the “expert” on Islam and Muslims, exactly how many Muslim states really use Shariah fully as the law of the land?

You stated imams all over the world to say: "Details of the horrors awaiting the Unbelievers and the rewards Allah is preparing for the Believers i.e. Paradise with gardens crisscrossed by rivers of wine, milk and honey and populated by black-eyed nymphs reclining under silk tents etc."

* Ah, having been to mosques all over the world and having listened to the imams’ sermons, I am sure you would have heard and understood, if you do in their mother tongue, that the imams are more interested in their community temporal affairs first, national issues second which affects their community’s well-being.

“Unbelievers” are low in priorities until and unless “Unbelievers” rub themselves against the community in ways imagined and real.
Most Muslims are barely above poverty or live in disaster prone areas, both man-made and natural.

No point talking about heaven and hell when much needs to be done to get communities to act as a group for group collaborative projects. Or to decide on whether to urge the government to get water or electricity first to the village, or together.

And talking about paradise, letting your imagination fly on what the Suras stated in spicing them up with “nymphs”, “silk tents” and all?

I would think Southeast Asian Muslims would want a coconut leave thatched roof hut and rivers of cool coconut water instead of wine, milk and honey. Quite a few of us are lactose intolerant and we use a lot more palm sugar instead of honey. Oh, if you must, instead of wine, why not toddy or rice wine for alcohol for the paradise of Southeast Asian Muslims?

Another nice imaginative post anyway, proffer on Islam and Muslims as a monolithic faith and group. Sound bites replacing thought and truth?

At least Muslims are more sophisticated to realise what Pat Robertson say is not representative of all Christians, or what Pastor Wright say is not representative of all African-American churches.

Cheers

Pamela do you think media ought to take a look and monitor what is being said and done in mosques and churches.

The British show Dispatches sent a hidden camera into a group of mosques and produced the revealing documentary-

Undercover Mosque (1 of 6)-

http://youtube.com/watch?v=peFQWuk4nuo

The Muslim community complained it had been edited and comments were taken out of context.

West Midlands Police issued a statement which said: "On 8 August 2007 we published, jointly with the Crown Prosecution Service, a press release relating to the Channel Four Dispatches programme Undercover Mosque.

"This press release alleged that footage of the speakers shown had been so 'heavily edited' and taken out of context that it had 'completely distorted' their meaning.

"Reference was made to the CPS having been asked to consider instituting proceedings against those involved in making the programme for inciting racial hatred.

"Following an independent investigation by the broadcasting regulator Ofcom, we now accept that we were wrong to make these allegations.

"We now accept that there was no evidence that the broadcaster or programme makers had misled the audience or that the programme was likely to encourage or incite criminal activity."

The statement added that a review of the evidence gathered by Ofcom had demonstrated that the programme had accurately represented the material it had gathered and dealt with the subject matter responsibly and in context.

It said: "We accept, without reservation, the conclusions of Ofcom and apologise to the programme makers for the damage and distress caused by our original press release."

The contents of their 6 part documentary are exactly as they seem.

Pamela- please watch the documentary at the link I provided and give your comments on the remarks of your co-religionists:

Allah has created the woman deficient.

If she doesn't wear hijab- we hit her.

Take that homosexual man and throw him off a mountain.

We Muslims have been ordered to do brainwashing.

You have to live like a state within a state until you take over.

The pinnacle, the crest, the summit of Islam is Jihad..

we are Working with Rusiia to destroy the Roman vatican Catholic Church in America once 7 for goodness All!

Oh, you said, 'money' not food, didn't you. Why would you want that on a plate? :)

I wouldn't go trying to put words in my mouth, Bgone, you clearly don't get it. No need to burn anyone's books, they don't have the power you seem to fear of them. Unless we let them.

"Challenge - come up with a scenario where you can get people to put money on your plate for the truth."

Family? Tribe? Friendship?

I see 9/11 as a politcal event, not a religious one.

And yes, myth isn't a dirty word to me at all and it doesn't mean something that isn't true.

My life is richer from reading Holy texts.

I do think that people in power use religion to advance their agenda, which is usually the control of the distribution of human and natural resources. I think that happens with or without religion.

And BGONE, like life, holy texts contain good and evil.

The Sermon on the Mount and Ecclesiastes are brilliant in my mind.

Paganplace:

If there was a prize for exposing religion as the evil it is it would be done. The big money, any money at all goes to those who are willing to sell their souls and lead others to hell. There isn't a penny for the truth while the lie can't be paid enough.

Challenge - come up with a scenario where you can get people to put money on your plate for the truth.

FRIEND: - Events 9-11-2001 kinda took the interpretation out of it didn't it? What does religion need do before one gets the message?

Assume the Bible is even close to correct history and Jews who claim it as their history are much more violent, "a war broke out." No kidding, "a war broke out" just sorta happened? A lot of that seems to still be happening. And of course, Moses killed that Egyptian overseer. Does that need interpreting? Of course it must be interpreted. Was it justified homicide or murder? Anyone saying it was murder shall be put to death.

How much interpretation is needed for the dark ages when the pope held the power of life and death over everyone. He wasn't king but the crowner of kings meaning candidates for king had to pass muster else forget it. A lot of that seems to be embedded in our political processes. Candidates must pass muster with America's pastor. America's pastor looks a lot like dark ages popes to me.

And now it's a big deal. Whatever will we do about a candidate that can't pass muster with anyone, pope, priest, preacher, Rabbi, Ayatollah but maybe witch doctor(?), Paganplace?, because he quit his church? Why don't we stand and give him a big rousing round of applause? Have the band strike up and play "Stars and Stripes Forever" while Paganplace prepares to burn a pile of sacred scriptures,, according to the protocols for Exorcising Devils by purging them in fire. All those sacred scriptures are the word of Devils of one kind or the other thus needing interpretation.

What sacred scriptures say isn't important. What people think sacred scriptures say is important. Consistent with, the truth is not important only what people believe is important.

Anyway... I'm still wondering what kind of 'fabulous prizes' certain people expect to get if they were ever able to convince everyone that one or another or all religion were inherently intractably-horrible, so ...what, therefore we should just keep on slinging recriminations and blame around?

Makes better soundbytes, I guess, but the 'invisible hand of the market' ain't known for its decorum, is it?

"Why myths? Why should we care about myths? What do they have to do with my life?"

Hee. Choose the myths you live wisely, or they'll surely live *you,* is why. The worst thing you can do is pretend your myth *isn't one. Or isn't there.* Same thing, really, we see literalist monotheists, literalist monotheist atheists, yer occasional Satanic or otherwise inverted-monotheist type essentially as part of the same dynamic.

(No, myth isn't a dirty word to Pagans, either. Sacred story. Doesn't mean it's not still a story. But not 'just' a story, either.)

The whole global cultural war, is it not a myth of its own?

Here's some for Bgone, who's apparently still wrestling with something or other:

"You need to read a little history,"

Yeah, I've been known to. Come, now. You should know better than to claim I don't.

"and read between the lines a little too since all history as written was "approved" by those in power at the time."

You're telling a *Pagan* this?

"Religion used to be absolutely powerful beginning with Pharaoh who claimed to have the keys to the gates leading to the next world,"

Actually, religion used to *not* be absolutely powerful in the person of the Pharoah, since he was the King, and that's *never* permanent, ...that's something beyond onesself.

Of course Akhenaten had other ideas, pretty conspicuously, and here we get some exclusivist monotheism... which certainly confused the issue.

Pharoah didn't 'hold' the keys if they weren't given to him... Try reading the Isis and Osiris stuff that got cribbed into the Moses story. He was expected to *use* them after he croaked. He represented the *land* as is not so uncommon a motif even today.

"and the stupid jerks believed him."

Actually, probably it's more the other way around... Or... Everyone but Bgone and biblical types weren't *stupid.*

At least any more than people are today. Stupid is knowing better and letting stupid things happen anyway.

" Constantine the great did alright in the power department too using religion. And he spawned the most powerful authority in western history, the pope who held the "arbitrary" power of life and death over every person."

Divine right of kings took on that tenor *with* absolutism, not before.

" When the law of the land can be dictated on the basis of what God wants that's as powerful as it needs to be to declare it to be absolute power."

In America, or anywhere, really, the fact is, enough people must consent and dumb down in order for this to happen.

" All three great faiths seek that power and hold it on a temporary basis, (puppet Bush) from time to time. Islam enjoys such power in many places and seeks to have it everywhere. They are the envy of the other two, their enemy only in the fact that they are competitors for the absolute power of God."

Well, that's their problem till they make it someone else's, isn't it?

King for a day, you know what next...

"The question is not will God's law be the law of the land but which God."

If that's so, it hardly *matters* which God, does it, then?

No, Pagans do not claim personalized Gods are the sum authority of the universe, really, cause of the factors you've mentioned but don't seem to understand.

" I understand that your gang believes in "strength in numbers" when it comes to the power of God, (to rule). God is the sum total of all gods? Huh?"

Err, what? Maybe *you* should do some reading before telling 'my gang' what we believe.

You're not even close.

We certainly tend to believe that a diversity is a strength to *us,* but not by some kind of main force or whatever you construct your worldview around.

Many Pagans, myself included, do believe all beings, ourselves, Gods, and the like included, are part of a grand divine unity, but we do not, as book people or atheists do, presume to speak for such in that way. Many don't even find the concept *relevant.*

"It's a shame they won't recognize Pagans for what they are. When your gang wins the struggle for the absolute power of God they'll be sorry they were so standoffish. Have yall called Barak and offered him a seat in your,,,, what do you call it,,, temple?"

If something like that were to come down, we wouldn't be 'us' anymore.

We have certainly learned by certain prominent negative examples, on that score. I assure you, we suffer from no such lack of imagination as you demonstrate here, by these accusations.

Certainly, Senator Obama would be welcome to most circles I know, but if you're looking for temples to assault, I hate to disappoint you.

"The key to religious power is to control the government done by controlling the governor. Worked for the popes for over a thousand years.
Why not Pagans?"

Cause it would be redundant? Cause there's really nothing in our belief system that commands even nationalism? Cause there's actually something *to* this that doesn't *function* if you treat it as defamers assume things must be?

I mean, hey, you can come watch a few would-be arch-magi implode if you don't believe me. :)

"A stupid jerk is born each and every minute" said P.T. Barnum. Old P.T. knew how to put on a show. What's wrong with Pagans? Human sacrifice has to be a real crowd pleaser. Need a few suggestions on who to sacrifice?"

Actually, one of the few things we treat as something like a revealed word in my faith group is Lady saying herself, 'I demand naught of sacrifice.'

That's important. Goes back to before Christianity, actually... Agrarian systems, the Pagani, reacting to urbanized Imperial orthopraxy-obsessions, politically-appointed 'Pontifices,' the Roman patronage system that still survives in the form of certain sub-legal organizations, etc, etc.

If you claim to be able to 'read between the lines' of history, don't treat *that* like holy writ, or presume there was 'a' Paganism which was monolithic and even *trying* to stand as still as book-people idealize or defame, depending upon who's doing it.

These things live and breathe and change, and that goes *especially* for Kings and would-be empires.

The 'history' you claim to command in fact talks almost *exclusively* of empires, and basically ignores the rest of the world. Cause that's how you think, apparently. But, such is the way of things.

No, we don't 'sacrifice' living beings, the idea is kind of nonsense to modern Pagans, really... if animals and people and such are gifts of the Goddess, then such things are not ours to *give,* even in effigy of divine sons... or in enslaving to kings and ideas of books.

SacrificeU was actually on the way out in ancient times, when the traditions were so rudely-interrupted. Urbanization took, well, a different path for a while. Nothing's perfect, like that, though.

Don't presume to claim people you don't understand are the same as your obviously-biased Scripture said of tribal enemies in the Bronze Age.

We'd be pretty lousy Pagans if we *hadn't* changed in all that time, even from the rosiest view of ancient times, wouldn't we?

How bout you?

You're the one claiming you know something about who writes history,

BGONE, you are a literalist interpretor of religious teachings. To understand the human endevour, sure, you must understand science, but you must also understand religion.

http://www.spiritsite.com/writing/joscam/part1.shtml

Why myths? Why should we care about myths? What do they have to do with my life?

Paganplace:

You need to read a little history,, and read between the lines a little too since all history as written was "approved" by those in power at the time.

Religion used to be absolutely powerful beginning with Pharaoh who claimed to have the keys to the gates leading to the next world, and the stupid jerks believed him. Constantine the great did alright in the power department too using religion. And he spawned the most powerful authority in western history, the pope who held the "arbitrary" power of life and death over every person.

Evangelicals, like Hitler dreaming of a 1,000 year Reich have done everything short of early popes in spite of their disorganization. When the law of the land can be dictated on the basis of what God wants that's as powerful as it needs to be to declare it to be absolute power. All three great faiths seek that power and hold it on a temporary basis, (puppet Bush) from time to time. Islam enjoys such power in many places and seeks to have it everywhere. They are the envy of the other two, their enemy only in the fact that they are competitors for the absolute power of God.

The question is not will God's law be the law of the land but which God. I understand that your gang believes in "strength in numbers" when it comes to the power of God, (to rule). God is the sum total of all gods? Huh?

It's a shame they won't recognize Pagans for what they are. When your gang wins the struggle for the absolute power of God they'll be sorry they were so standoffish. Have yall called Barak and offered him a seat in your,,,, what do you call it,,, temple?

The key to religious power is to control the government done by controlling the governor. Worked for the popes for over a thousand years. Why not Pagans? "A stupid jerk is born each and every minute" said P.T. Barnum. Old P.T. knew how to put on a show. What's wrong with Pagans? Human sacrifice has to be a real crowd pleaser. Need a few suggestions on who to sacrifice?

"Religion is absolute power that corrupts absolutely. It doesn't matter which religion it is, Muslims are no worse than Christians or Jews. Seen one seen them all."

This is actually one of the attitudes which leads to *absolutism,* even from a lot of vocal atheists: it sounds like debate, but only produces entrenchment in ideas that one religion or another *must* be part of some contest for absolute power.

This is not actually the case. A small number of related religions have certainly been *aggressive* enough to figure they are the only ones around and contesting with each other and against reason for such 'absolute power,' but actually this is really just competing brands of one particular *model* of religion. ...all originating in the same particular set of ideas.

OBSERVER:

What Ataturk said about Muslims using the Quar'an for governance applies to all religions and their sacred scriptures. It's not reliance on supernatural beings but rather men claiming knowledge of what supernatural beings demand of us. It's not even that the books are flawed. It's the built in high holy one will make all the rules the first rule being the survival of his office. It's down hill from there including control and distribution of the wealth -first in line being him, (always a "him" and never a "her" Miss Pamela). Ataturk knew the situation, religion drags down and never builds up except for itself. No theocracy has ever been a success. Law of averages says one is likely while the odds remain the same, zero.

Case in point - did anyone know Israel was going to announce that something had to be done about Iran's nuclear program this morning driving the price of oil up record increment? No? Why was there so much "short covering" yesterday? What has happened to those who did not get the word the announcement would be made? Think about that the next time you fill it up.

Religion is power from the imaginary supernatural put in the hands of men. All power corrupts. Religion is absolute power that corrupts absolutely. It doesn't matter which religion it is, Muslims are no worse than Christians or Jews. Seen one seen them all. Just so many con men with books to validate their license to steal. And they have such clever way of stealing billions right out of the pocket of people who don't even belong to a religion at all.

It remains to be seen if the electorate understands that Obama quitting a church is a micro step in the right direction. Him joining another is what? Would that be stupid or just a politician playing to an audience of the stupid?

BTW, the name of the supernatural being that encourages lying, (saying I spoke to God) cheating, (insider trading) stealing, (wrecking the economy) and of course murder, (9-11-2001) is Lucifer the angel that would be God. Just one question left to ask. What does the real God think about all this?

"It is far less easy for us to say whether the choice was the right one."

Hey, even Christians only got two cheeks. Politely. :)

It was wrong of the smearers to demand he leave, and equally-wrong of them to claim he should not have when the circus got worse.

Fact is, what happened with that church is perfectly-understandable, ...if one is reality-based.

Many people who do not attend that church are depending on Sen. Obama. If he were willing to hold us all hostage to the good behavior of guest preachers, and former pastor Wright, that would be more the move of a Bush ...or flip-flopping former 'maverick' McCain, than who we are so psyched to vote for.

I'll not that we have separation of church and state here in America, not just to protect the state, but also to protect the *churches.*

Look what's happened to the *churches* in recent years.

another test comment

Considering some of the best people I know read the Quran daily, put in the way you have, I guess he was wrong.

Secular Western support of monarchies and dictatorships to help it control the distribution of the resource responsible for the world's greatest economic boom in history has weakened the countries of Islam much more than people reading a Holy book.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg

MO says:
“america is a secularistic country because the constitution is the way the reality and the supremacey even though the majority are christians,until christianity bring to america a life system ,america will remain secular.is that good or bad”

America as well as all the other enlightened countries in the world, including Turkey, do separate between State and Church. America’s government is secularist but its people are overwhelmingly Christians. Let me reiterate to you what Ataturk, the father of modern Turkey said to a Syrian Muslim cleric who presented him with a copy of the Quran. He told him “As long as you people use this book(Quran) as both a manual for daily living and governance you will not amount to anything.” I shall leave it up to you to judge whether he was right or wrong.

and we didnt talk about Eskisehir before the Flood. it was also in Anadolu. and we talked about Yenisehir in Bursa.

and as far as i learned,
"mag" is a term similar to manners.

Mo, Mo, Mo,

Well at least Christians can leave or change their church without the threat of death squads which is all too common in Islamic countries when a Muslim goes "apostate".

"No one is safe until the koran is deflawed and all mosques are "febrezed" !!!!"

Europe, Armenia and Turkey support Barack Obama. Susan Sarandon and Tim Robbins support Barack Obama, and so does Oprah Winfrey.

if Barack Obama is Hound of MAgician in the House, if Barack Obama is House of Magician, then Mike Huckabee and John McCain shall be in Eskisehir.

church going and church leaving.

in (judochristiandemocraticmichavillicapitalistic)society ,secularism is the way the truth and life,.

it does not matter whether people go to church or leave the church ,again and again and again ,the church is a place of worship a place of rituals not a judicial nor a law enforcement institution .(life is not based on mere rituals ,people need a system a life system,life is not pure love,you need governement and you need enforcement).this is how you label a country ,you label a country not by the majority of ritualistics but by the majority and supremacey of the enforceing laws.

america is a secularistic country because the constitution is the way the reality and the supremacey even though the majority are christians,until christianity bring to america a life system ,america will remain secular.is that good or bad?

obama is not the first nor the last to leave the church ,christians leavt the church long time ago since day one to secularism(caesr)though moses and jesus came to mankind with complet system of life .

in america people go to the church of( god)every sunday morning but for life they practice man made laws and secularism????.who inspired who ?christianity inspired secularism? or secularism inspired christianity? and who will win in america ?

in a (judochristiandemocraticmichavilicapitalistic)society people will vote for (judochristiandemocraticmichavillicapitalistic )president.

god a la chart is the name of the game.the black and white democratic god of the united state of america !!!

what is the difference between dracula and blackula??????????????

Ms. Taylor says:

"I can attest to having listened to sermons at various mosques that made me cringe..."
I too have listened to many sermons by Imams around the world. They all fall under three categories.
1. Fight the "Unbelievers" till Islam is the only religion.
2. Establish the Sharia(Koran and Hadith;tradition of the Prophet) as the law of the land.
3. Details of the horrors awaiting the Unbelievers and the rewards Allah is preparing for the Believers i.e. Paradise with gardens crisscrossed by rivers of wine, milk and honey and populated by blackeyed nymphs reclining under silk tents etc.

And there the Reality Challenged and Obfuscating Jihadist is at it again. Do we really need a discourse on muftis, grand or not? No, we need to have the Jihadist and her fellow Muslims come to grips with the "fems" of Islam. When she and her fellow Muslims finally do this, there will be no more muftis and the world will be a better place.

Assalamu Alaikum,
Imam Pamela Taylor,

Thank you for the links you gave and your elaboration on matters raised in your essay. I have a bit of time here, so...

You are right that some members of the Muslim ulema (imams, muftis, kadis), scholars and leaders don't quite consider what they said in a broader context. Specifically, the inter-relation of one action, one decision on other aspects (politics, economics, social) for society's greater good. Some need to be taught on chaos theory and butterfly effect obviously.

To take them to task for being "niched" or narrow in their mindset and pronouncements due to their specialisation in specific areas of Islamic studies or jurisprudence is to also ignore the fact the even secular scholars and policy-makers sometimes can't and don't divert much from their areas of studies or specific areas of responsibilities in looking at the world.

As you know, in Sunni Muslim states with Muftis and Grand Muftis (those with bona fide authority to issue fatwas) even they are questioned or challenged on some of their fatwas. A Mufti of a Malaysian state a few years ago stated that divorce by SMS is acceptable. The reactions is as can be imagined.

Muftis are not in the habit of saying they are "mistaken" or "in error". By their silence in reaction to the reaction on their statements or fatwas, it is taken as their statement or fatwa is ignored and not accepted by the public, and let it pass. Asian "face-saving" comes in here too.

The Muftis of Malaysian states now do refrain a bit from making interesting pronouncments on matters related to religion lest their credibility be reduced. But the kadis of the Shariah courts are another matter and are cause of much grief. Fatwas can be ignored, but not judgements of Shariah courts as like civil courts for its enforcement of rulings.

As for women and salat in masjids, it does differ from country to country. In Indonesia and Malaysia, women do go to masjids and suraus for salat but not for Friday salat in masjids. Women do lead women in salat as imams, but thus far, not let to lead prayers for both gender in masjids.

As for khutbahs in masjids, not much as yet, though some imams do let a few bona fide ustazahs to give khutbahs on occassions in their masjids, mostly relating to womens' issues and concerns. It is more common to find women making presentations in seminars, workshops, symposiums, conferences on Islam and matters relating to Muslims affairs.

As for gays, while it it is deem as haram by the ulema of Indonesia and Malaysia, they are more seized by sex between unmarried couples, or between couples who are married but not to each other rather than one between the same gender. Transvestites does not seem to get much flak according to the related Sura on them.

On gays, a related Sura stated that women are not to engage in "lewd acts". That could also cover strip tease, lap dancing, pole dancing, or flirting outrageously with all the come-ons, come hither looks. There is some uncertainties among some Malaysian ulema on gays judging by some not responding at all when questions on them were raised.

Transvestites are accepted by some ulema as no "fault" of them as a Sura do allude to men of a special nature, but there remain aversion of same gender sex. And of course, men are more homophobic than women regardless of whatever religion or no religion at all.

I must say that gay issue is quite low in everyone civil rights agenda for now in Muslim states and societies. It is Muslim women's rights that is of primary importance - from divorce, to alimony, to child support. Entering the educational institutions, the job market or to start a business is not a problem in Indonesia and Malaysia. Letting women have access that way do help reduce sexism regarding women's abilities and capabilities.

But then, Indonesian and Malaysian society is culturally and traditionally different the Middle East, the Indian sub-continent and East Asia. Only with the importation of the Wahhabi/Salafist brand of Islam was there some regression in attitudes on women.

Some can't seem to appreciate and differentiate between Arab traditions and culture with Islam from dressing to dinner hours to over-feasting during Ramadan. Even on this, one can't really say to someone the she can't dress up in hijab as one would not to someone who chose to wear a dress, or eat falafel over steak and eggs, or listen to rai rather than rock.

Can't argue and should not really, on such personal choices without implying that western clothing, food, culture is acceptable and preferable uber alle, but not Middle Eastern, Asian, African or Latin American to be imitated, adopted or adapted. It does smack of cultural elitism, snobbism and yes, racism. But certainly, not to encourage those aspects which are apparently known to have negative impacts on society.

It is apparent that everytime a kadi made a judgement, they made us think on the justness of their decision and punishment they meted out. Every time a mufti issued a fatwa, they made us think on their reasoning behind it. Everytime a Muslim organisation's leader made a statement, they made us think on the veracity of what they said.

It is apparent that not all they said and do in the name of God, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful are really in line with that and God's reminders that we pursue communal peace, individual dignity and social justice for all. More often than not are also made, as Malaysians like to say, for the "vested interests of certain quarters".

I agree with you that we are more engrossed with the politics of our respective countries as it has more direct impact on us. It is politicians who helm nations, who are in charge of governance and not the ulema, Iran and Saudi Arabia notwithstanding with their own particularities and peculiarities.

It is politicians who cause or allow political, racial and religious excessess to happen, to go on, to give rise to or foster political, racial and religious divisions and extremism by their actions or inactions.

It is politicians who formulate and enforce state laws on matters of faith too. And they who can stop racial and religious divisiveness and conflics too if they want, by their actions, not just the ulema or any other non-goverment officials and groups.

It is no wonder that some Muslims can't even remember sometimes who are their own Grand Muftis much less those of other Muslim nations until the Grand Muftis said something that caught the local media's attention and thus the public.

Even with a state designated authority such as Grand Muftis, or a public recognised authority such as Grand Ayatollahs, they have no power to implement their fatwas unless the state enforces them, or Muslims voluntarily follow them.

As in history and now, the power of faith is personal and voluntary, but the power of the state is not on individuals and communities and do encroach in one's personal and community life in every aspect and not just on matters of faith.

One would be more leery of the traffic police giving one fines for speeding than going to hell for sinning. God is more compassionate and merciful than a civil court judge or Shariah court kadi after all, and God won't send us to hell for speeding, not paying taxes, or overstaying in a foreign country. Laws formulated by the legal profession and enforced by states and courts suffocates and restricts man more than religious injunctions or "God's laws".

So, hard to see all this fuss over "religion poisons everything" when goverment policies do more damage to societies and nations, especially in the last century and now than any religious organisations or faith groups.

Thanks again, for your elaboration on your essay.

Salam and a good weekend to you.

"J"

Yeah, that's real good logic JJ, vote for McCain and save Obama's life. Won't work. Once Lucifer puts the hit on only God can save. Obama is beginning to look a lot like the "son of God." They won't get him but they will try hard,, as though he needed Muslim roots to make them do that. Without Carter and Regan the Soviets would have solved the bin-Laden problem before it happened so don't vote the way their bases, tree huggers and evangelicals voted. That would be a vote for_________?

I wonder if you could give us some particulars -- "Trinity United Church of Christ is a well respected church in Chicago, one of the largest and most active, with an impressive list of social programs."

*It's in Chicago - got that.
*Well respected - so is Godfather, Don Tony Soprano.
*One of the largest - size is relative so OK.
*Most active - again relative to how active others are.
*With an impressive list of social programs - you got me. What social programs for whom? Not me.

The city/county has "an impressive list of social programs" doesn't it including welfare and a public health department to mention just two. "Trinity United Church of Christ" isn't trying to replace local government? I see. They've already done that and now they're trying to replace the federal government. Barak Obama got in their way did he?

How much of the "po-folks" money have they slicked claiming to do all that good? How much of that money came from welfare checks? How much of the take, nickels squeezed from po-folks is actually used for, "an impressive list of social programs"? How much so Reverend Jeremiah Wright wouldn't have to get a job? How much for stained glass etc? If I'm so impressed by, "an impressive list of social programs" I send them money how much of it will go where?

The Bible is the word of the biggest Devil of them all, Lucifer. Lucifer like Allah can only do through people. All who claim to be doing, "an impressive list of social programs" including clearing trashy, (trash is in the eye of the beholder) buildings from New York City are servants of God's enemy Lucifer the angel that would be God. If that's not so then there must be some evidence beyond faith to repute it otherwise it stands unchallenged.

Allah is almighty or do you have a little evidence to say He is powerless without help from people, (people are Allah's muscles)? The road to hell is paved with ignored and "stonewalled" evidence.

B R E A K I N G
N E W S:

Some one Said:

According to the 'NATiON OF iSLAM" via Luis Farrakhan et al: THAT;

OSAMA Bin Laden has promised to assasinate , wanna be Prez, Borack Hussain OBAMA (for breaking away from his "Islamic" (Submissive) 'Roots' thus labeled Obama An 'APOSTATE') since Borack's Father Hussain pledged,"...Till Death.." do his son too, his sincerity of Al iSLAM!

It's soo so sad.

So more Reason's to;

VOTE:
For John McCAiN for PREZ 2009! YEA!

John McCAiN for PREZ 2009!

John McCAiN for PREZ 2009!

a salaamu alaikum ladies (you too lib)
thanks imam- i just read a great article on why muslim converts wear hijab- on the link you've provided-

salaams jihadist- it's been awhile-
hi lib!- long time no see-

Pamela,

Au Contraire!! US Muslims can "deflaw the koran" and thereby make the world a safer place.

J -- I think there are more and more Muslims willing to take their imams to task, especially prominent ones. (For online examples where I personally have done this see: http://www4.naseeb.com/naseebvibes/prose-detail.php?aid=5381 or http://www4.naseeb.com/naseebvibes/prose-detail.php?aid=5234) The imams I was thinking of when I wrote this column do indeed live a life promoting interfaith harmony and compassion, and, yes, I have made clear my views of some of the stuff they have said.

I believe that many Muslims (including leaders in the American Muslim community) have not deeply considered the implications of their words. ISNA, for instance, calls for the complete participation of women in masjids, while simultaneously denying them the right to lead prayers of deliver sermons. It seems obvious to me that complete participation cannot mean complete except for this or that thing -- either you call for complete equality or you recognize that you are advocating a two tier society based on gender. Their attempt to do both is self-deceiving. Similarly, imams who proclaim they support civil rights for all, but who would limit civil rights for gay people. Again, I believe our leaders have not been deeply reflective on the views they spout -- they want to claim to represent civil rights for everyone, but at the same time deny those rights to a certain segment of our population. You cannot have it both ways.

As for politics, as an American, my primary interest is American politics and there is a dearth of Muslim politicians. There is little I can do about politics in Saudi Arabia or Iran. Yes, many of us participate in campaigns by Amnesty International or other groups on the most dire situations, but honestly, the place an American Muslim can hope to make the most change is at home.

Pamela

And the "fems" of Islam continue to be subjects The Jihadist cannot bring herself to discuss or mention. Why?? Fear of Islamic death squads? Fear of the truth? Fear of ulemas? Fear of her husband? Fear of/for her family? Fear of the Jinni? Having such fears simply and tragically adds to the "fems" of Islam!!!

Again the "fems" of Islam:

1. Belief in "pretty and gay(?)/ugly wingie thingies".

2. Belief that an hallucinating, illiterate Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the hot "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words and resultant laws now listed in the koran.

3 That Shiites are less than human or Sunnis are less than human depending on what Islamic cult you belong to.

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7, 800 year-old blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites gives significant credence that greed, hate, suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran. Having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of rape, adultery, lust and polygamy. The condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of hatred, anger and greed.

Assalamu alaikum
Imam Pamela,

This is an interesting case. Obama leaving his church to distance himself from what Pastor Wright said.

I have not quite found a parallel in the Muslim world where Muslims would get all riled up over what imams, kadis, muftis said on politics. More often, on what politicians said on religion, be it in Turkey or Indonesia or Iran.

But of course, Muslims do also ignore what some members of the ulema said on religion too that is regretabble. Decentralisation is a good thing. More room for various interpretions and thoughts on faith to make their way and let the umma decide rather than one designated "authority" to determine and dictate. Having an authority leaves less room for questioning and challenges on interpretations.

You : "I can attest to having listened to sermons at various mosques that made me cringe, even sermons delivered by people who I know to be good hearted, dedicated to interfaith and intercommunal harmony, to justice, kindness and compassion."

I have heard such sermons too in mosques, but don't regard them as good-hearted or thinking clearly. They are forgetting that every devout Muslim preceded his/her prayers and actions with "In the Name of God, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful". I want those who gave such sermons to act it rather than just say it with regard to intra-faith and inter-faith harmony, justice and compassion. I'm learning that in saying so to them after their sermons do make some pause. Especially when asked what are their plans and suggestions for justice, peace and compassionate and just acts, including humanitarian acts for those in need.

Salam

"J"