Atheists, Pew, and Webster's

"Ms Taylor you have a brilliant mind but it does not grasp the difference between serial monogamy in religions that permit divorce and polygamy as in Islam. Non-Muslims who have read the Quran know how easy divorce is in Islam.
You rationalize sexual promiscuity. It has neither to do with Islam nor any other religion. Period."

Islam is a way of life that is based on common sense, flexibility and looking at the bigger picture that was brought to human beings who have been created by a creator who knows them inside out and knows every mark of their DNA.

Let me remind you that the Quran who has been protected for the last not 150 years but more than 1500 years, is dictating divorce as a mercy towards the couple involved as a last resort. Islam (Meaning Peace at the heart fo it) doesnt want to see the agony prolonged until death will separate the two with a life of misery.

As for poligamy, let us first state that poligamy isnt the norm it is the exception in Islam unless you can prove to me with statistical data that the majority fo the Muslims are turning this exception into normality.

Do you know about the strict conditions of being a polygam person under Islam?
Furthemore do you know the benefit of it when applied justly as during wars like the first and second world wars that happened in Europe and where the ratio of women compared to men was significantly inequal? What do you expect women to do to turn in such conditions to turn to prostitution or repress their sexual urges for good?

Finally what is the problem number one facing the Catholic church and its priests as highlighted during the visit of the POPE in Australia recently and before it in places like the USA, UK etc. with well known scandals of sexual nature.

Islam doesnt support repressing sex as it is unatural and doesnt encourage a free sex approach as applied by some who can be married or single and who prefer not to be committed and cheat and disregard the consequences of their actions.

Islam is for the middle ground and encourage stability of a healthy society in the wider sense.

Is there such a thing as a man (and for that matter a woman) needing more than one member of the opposite sex to satisfy a legitimate biological need?

The sexually promiscuous are greedy gluttons. Some women seek power through sex. Period.

Ms Taylor you have a brilliant mind but it does not grasp the difference between serial monogamy in religions that permit divorce and polygamy as in Islam. Non-Muslims who have read the Quran know how easy divorce is in Islam.

You rationalize sexual promiscuity. It has neither to do with Islam nor any other religion. Period.

Ms Taylor you have a brilliant mind but it does not grasp the difference between serial monogamy in religions that permit divorce and polygamy as in Islam. You rationalize sexual promiscuity. It has neither to do with Islam or any other religion. Period.

Pam- wake up.

British Citizen Jailed for Sex on Dubai Beach:

-- Michelle Palmer, a British citizen, has been jailed and faces up to six years in jail in the U.A.E., after being caught having sex on a Dubai beach, The Sun reported, without saying where it got the information.

Palmer, 30, was initially cautioned by police, but then arrested after being caught a second time that evening and swearing at a policeman, the London-based newspaper said.

Palmer was charged with having sex outside of marriage, indecent behavior in public and assaulting a police officer, the newspaper said.

Pamela K Taylor wrote:

"As for promiscuity... yes, I believe men and women should be equally enabled, and equally responsible, for their sexuality. Double standards which result in a "boys will be boys giggle" for promiscuous men and stoning to death for promiscuous women are abhorrent. Either turn a blind eye to both or punish both (and personally, I believe sexual expression between consenting adults is a matter between the individuals, their consciences and God, not the state or the community, and the individuals.)...

"4) I believe that the Qur'an does not condone sin, although that term is a very slippery one and means various different things to different ipeople. I also believe many people of many religious do lots of stuff that their religion does not condone and to equate the actions, even of large numbers of people of a given faith, with the faith itself is to confuse theology and human deeds.

"5) I do not believe having multiple wives gives credence to the sins of greed and lust. Do some Muslim men who take more than one one do so for greed and lust? Of course. Just as many Christian men who divorce their wives and take a new spouse do so out of lust. What does that have to do with the ideals expressed in the scripture? Nothing."

July 7, 2008 6:29 PM

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Thank you for your honesty. Now I'm relieved my impressions after reading your very first essay and your responses to bloggers on that thread, and your later essays and responses which strengthened the first impression, was right after all. I now also understand why most mainstream Muslims don't even count you as a real Muslim. You read the Quran with the mind of a feminist who believes in the right of women to sexual promiscuity with absolutely no understanding of why sexual promiscuity is condemned by all religions.

VICTORIA wrote: "one could only imagine how your head must swim when confronted by the depth of the qur'an."

She is half right. Yes my head swims when confronted by the Quran , but not because of its depth. It is because of the magnitude of its scientific heresies, its historic blunders, its mathematical mistakes, its grammatical errors and its ethical fallacies.

Pam Taylor, THANK YOU for addressing this with a serious, thoughtful and sensible response. Most of the other theistic panelists preferred to snigger and crack cheap jokes about atheists' intelligence level, which really just betrays their deep insecurity.

Columns like this give me hope for the future of moderate religion. I think an understanding really is possible after all. Thanks again!

GeorgiaSon:

Before we are subjected to more comments from Muslims giving us their objective opinion that Islam is a touch-feely religion that embodies love and respect for all mankind, please do a few mouse clicks to the NEWS section of the POST and read this article in full:

"Egypt's Coptic Christians Are Choosing Isolation - Violent Clashes With Majority Muslims and an Increase in Separate Institutions Help Sever Centuries-Old Ties

By Ellen Knickmeyer
Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday, July 7, 2008; A08

CAIRO -- Under pressure from fundamentalist forms of Islam and bursts of sectarian violence, the most populous Christian community in the Middle East is seeking safety by turning inward, cutting day-to-day social ties that have bound Muslim to Christian in Egypt for centuries, members of both communities say.
Attacks this summer on monks and shopkeepers belonging to Egypt's Coptic Christian minority, and scattered clashes between Muslims and Christians, have compelled many of Egypt's estimated 6 million to 8 million Copts to isolate themselves in a nation with more than 70 million Muslims..."

I am one of those Americans who has pointed out the monumental hypocrisy at work when Muslims harp on the alleged ignorance of Americans about Islam, while ignoring the fact that Muslim countries refuse to grant Christians in their midst the freedoms enjoyed every day by Muslims in America. I rest my case.

July 7, 2008 6:30 AM

No, you're wrong. I'm one of those atheists who responded to the Pew survey and admitted to sometimes praying. Here's the truth: I don't believe in God. While I admit that it's not knowable, my deepest conviction is that there is no Creator, no omniscient mind, certainly no personal, interested, Abrahamic God. Nobody listening.

Still, in the depths of the atavistic night, when my only child is out on the rain-slicked streets at 3am on prom night, and I'm not sure her damned boyfriend didn't have a few drinks he didn't tell her about before they started on the round of after-parties, and there is nothing I can do but give her judgement the well-earned trust it deserves, and wait, sometimes I pray. Not because I have any faith that it will do any good, but just because there's nothing else to do.

So there it is. Just as believers still sin, atheists still pray. Get off your high horse, lady.

Ms. Taylor says:

"I'm proud to be Muslim, though I emphatically reject the branches of the faith that are misogynist, militant, and extreme."

But the founder of your faith was misogynist , militant and extreme.
What could be more extreme than torture a young man by the name of Kinana to death while trying to force him show where his slaughtered people of Khaibar oasis hid their money. This is the same "Prophet" who knew the exact words exchanged between the Patriarch Abraham and his father way in the future on Judgment Day. Do you see the irony in all of this?

CCNL, the killing in Iraq is for control of the oil. Under Saddam Hussein the minority Sunni sect had all the power. Now that they have lost the absolute power they wielded over the Shia majority Sunnis feel "oppressed." It is also fuelled by the fact the Shia feel entitled to taking revenge for the many years of oppression they suffered under Saddam Hussein. Islam permits revenge killing, so there you have the tenets of the religion of peace contributing to the "peace" in Iraq. Now if you listen carefully it is the Sunnis wanting a division of Iraq along sect lines. Simple logic, they live in oil rich areas of Iraq. Kurds who have long been marginalised don't want to get caught in the Shia-Sunni crossfire and want Kurdistan because they live in an oil rich area of Iraq too.

One would expect women like Ms Taylor, Jihadist and Victoria to strongly champion a unified Iraq, but you never hear it. Their loyalties lie with the powerful Sunni group. No religion there, just power politics and what they stand to gain from it.

Said Lowell: "It's not in the least surprising that this forum has immediately become a Christofascist hate blog."

Real interfaith bridges can be built only based on truth not a wishful portrayal of Islam as Ms Taylor does. Read the Quran and the New Testamant again, read through all of Ms Taylor's posts since February 2007 before posting further "useful idiot" comments.

The two married Muslim women who support her strongly on this forum are Jihadist (half Dutch) and Victoria (white American), both Sunni Muslims and liberated and modern in a way that Muslim males would not count as Muslim at all. Anyone reading their posts on this forum can confirm that. The only problem for non-Muslims is that they do not represent real Islam at all.

It's not in the least surprising that this forum has immediately become a Christofascist hate blog.

IMHO Ms Taylor is an atheist at heart who still believes in sexual promiscuity for women because she grew up in the day of "free love" and practiced it as an atheist feminist (read her earliest essays and comments posted in response to bloggers). She talks Islam from the top of her head because she is married to a Muslim. Ms Taylor attributes every good thing she has read anywhere to Islam, tries to portray Mohammad as Jesus and Jesus as Mohammad. Sounds like a terrible analysis but is the only one that can be made after reading all her posts since February 2007. Would be interesting to know if any others share the same view.

IMHO Ms Taylor is an atheist at heart who still believes in sexual promiscuity for women because she grew up in the day of "free love" and practiced it as an atheist feminist (read her earliest essays and comments posted in response to bloggers). She talks Islam from the top of her head because she is married to a Muslim. Ms Taylor attributes every good thing she has read anywhere to Islam, tries to portray Mohammad as Jesus and Jesus as Mohammad. Sounds like a terrible analysis but is the only one that can be made after reading all her posts since February 2007. Would be interesting to know if any others share the same view.

How about that!!! Finally a Muslim who can read!!

And Pamela exactly what is your concept of a "pretty wingie thingie"?

And exactly how do these spirit thingies talk having no bodies and no vocal cords?

And what version of the koran are you reading? i.e. you cannot read it properly unless you read the one in Arabic. Do you read and understand Arabic?

And if indeed Shiites and Sunnis are equal in the eyes of Allah (and Pamela), why the feud? Why the suicide bombings, murder, maiming and raping?

And your Mo man did not take child brides, have 11 wives, kill non-believers whenever and wherever?

And what about Hirsi Ali's treatment by your peaceful Muslims? Or the treatment of Sir Salman Rushdie? Or the riots? Or the train bombings? Or 9/11??

Maybe you are really not Muslim afterall???

Oh good grief anonymous! Talk about distorting... You know quite well I did not say I believed any such thing about Christians, but rather was quoting some prevalent opinions about Christians that many of those who prefer not to identify as Christian would like to avoid being associated with! And then I went to go on to say that rather than avoid the label, it would be better to challenge such notions of what it means to be a Christian.

As for promiscuity... yes, I believe men and women should be equally enabled, and equally responsible, for their sexuality. Double standards which result in a "boys will be boys giggle" for promiscuous men and stoning to death for promiscuous women are abhorrent. Either turn a blind eye to both or punish both (and personally, I believe sexual expression between consenting adults is a matter between the individuals, their consciences and God, not the state or the community, and the individuals.)

And last but not least -- Concerned:
1) I believe in angels, though not as you define them

2) I believe Gabriel spoke to Prohpet Muhammad on a variety of ocassions.

3) No, I do not believe that Sunni are better than Shia.

4) I believe that the Qur'an does not condone sin, although that term is a very slippery one and means various different things to different people. I also believe many people of many religious do lots of stuff that their religion does not condone and to equate the actions, even of large numbers of people of a given faith, with the faith itself is to confuse theology and human deeds.

5) I do not believe having multiple wives gives credence to the sins of greed and lust. Do some Muslim men who take more than one one do so for greed and lust? Of course. Just as many Christian men who divorce their wives and take a new spouse do so out of lust. What does that have to do with the ideals expressed in the scripture? Nothing.

6) If you look at the treatment prescribed in the Qur'an it solidly disavows anger, greed, and injustice. That some men do not live up to the injuctions in the Qur'an does not mean that the Qur'an condones them behaving like brutes. Again, much the same could be said for any man (or woman) who behaves like a brute, though their religion most assuredly does not teach them to.

And there is still one survey/poll that Victoria, the Reality Challenged and Obfuscating Jihadist et al still will not answer. Strange!! Maybe there is a reading comprehension problem amongst the Islamic commentators on this blog.

Actually, Victoria has demonstrated a reading comprehension problem in the past by citing an anti-Muslim document to support her claims about the greatness of Islam.

Once again:

A six question survey for the Reality Challenged and Obfuscating Jihadist, Victoria, Pamela, Nouri, Daisy, Eboo, Asim, Ahmed, Mo and all the other Muslims out there:

Do you believe:

1. In "pretty/ugly wingie" thingies?

2. That the long-dead Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words now listed in the koran?

3. That Sunnis are superior to Shiites in all aspects of life?

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7 800 year-old feud between Sunnis and Shiites give significant credence that suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran?

5. That having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of lust and polygamy?

6. And that the condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of anger and greed???????

Note: Since atheists are in the general mix of US residents i.e the source of the Pew survey/poll, it is assumed, based on the previously cited official survey of the literacy and literacy deficiency rate in the USA, that many of the atheists who took said Pew poll did not have the proper reading skills to know what they were viewing which resulted in the very odd statistics.

As Muslims we regard Islamic tradition as standing clearly and unequivocally for the support of male-female equity. In
the Quran, no difference whatever is made between the sexes in
relation to God. "For men who submit [to God] and for women who submit
[to God], for believing men and believing women, for devout men and
devout women, for truthful men and truthful women, for steadfast men
and steadfast women, for humble men and humble women, for charitable
men and charitable women, for men who fast and women who fast, for men
who guard their chastity and women who guard, for men who remember God
much and for women who remember - for them God has prepared
forgiveness and a mighty reward" (33:35). "Whoever performs good
deeds, whether male or female and is a believer, We shall surely make
him live a good life and We will certainly reward them for the best of
what they did" (16:97).[2]

While other religions understand the sex instinct as something we have in common with animals which needs to be controlled and exercised in a way that makes a stable society possible. Ms Taylor tries to sell the notion that Islam looks upon lust as a special blessing endowed on human beings and promiscuous narcissistic hedonistic lust is a special virtue. Other religions do not provide a sex manual as Scripture just as they do not provide a cook book as part of Scripture. Whether Quran actually does give detailed sex instruction for males is something male Muslims familiar with the Quran can answer best.

CCNL: 5. That having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of lust and polygamy?

Excessive lust and polygamy for men is not defined as sin in Islam. Ms Taylor is merely extending it to women, although it has no basis in the Quran. Remember Islam is a reformation of Arab paganism. Paganism has a strong this worldly lust filled element to it. Check out European paganism as a comparison. This worldly legal element is borrowed from Judaism although some of the laws are modified or different.

And there is still one survey/poll that the Reality Challenged and Obfuscating Jihadist et al still will not answer. Strange!! Maybe there is a reading comprehension problem amongst the Islamic commentators on this blog. Once again:

A six question survey for the Reality Challenged and Obfuscating Jihadist, Victoria, Pamela, Nouri, Daisy, Eboo, Asim, Ahmed, Mo and all the other Muslims out there:

Do you believe:

1. In "pretty/ugly wingie" thingies?

2. That the long-dead Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words now listed in the koran?

3. That Sunnis are superior to Shiites in all aspects of life?

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7 800 year-old feud between Sunnis and Shiites give significant credence that suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran?

5. That having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of lust and polygamy?

6. And that the condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of anger and greed???????

Note: Since atheists are in the general mix of US residents i.e the source of the Pew survey/poll, it is assumed, based on the previously cited official survey of the literacy and literacy deficiency rate in the USA, that many of the atheists who took said Pew poll did not have the proper reading skills to know what they were viewing which resulted in the very odd statistics.

Mohammad HAD to institute strict policing and laws to keep women faithful to their spouses. That reflects the difficulty women seem to have had remaining faithful to their husbands even back in 7th century Arabia.

It is revolting when Ms Taylor tries to portray sexual promiscuity as some kind of grand achievement.

It is telling that Mohammad's idea of heaven included CHASTE VIRGINS. In pagan Arabia of his time there were probably not many chaste women. If girls were married off at six years of age and sexual relationships were consummated at nine as Mohammad did, divorce and remarriage for women were easy, then little wonder that there weren't any real chaste virgins to go around. Six year old girls, are not women but if one could hope to find only chaste girls at that age, how sad.

Quoting Anon... "Feminism is also understood to be the fight for equal right to be sexually promiscuous as males have been."

Where did you get that idea? I am a feminist and proud of it, but I have never heard that definition of "feminism."

I would imagine that Pamela is correct in saying that most people do not know how to define some very basic terms that are in general use in our society and are, at the whim of a user, given much more negative connotations. For example, lots of "Christians" truly believe that atheists cannot be "good" people, but are evil. Go figure!

VICTORIA wrote: "one could only imagine how your head must swim when confronted by the depth of the qur'an."

My head so swims when confronted with the Quran that I ask myself how anyone who has been exposed to the spirituality of other religions could ever convert to Islam.

Feminism is also understood to be the fight for equal right to be sexually promiscuous as males have been. So what is the big deal with sexual promiscuity that you describe as some kind of special virtue? Bonobo ape females have not heard of feminism and yet they are doing quite nicely with sexual promiscuity.

But sexual promiscuity for women and Islam? Let real Muslim males familiar with the Quran and the life of Mohammad answer that.

Assalamu Alaikum
Imam Pamela Taylor,

Atheists will have to and are defining themselves in the context of their shades of beliefs and non-belief.

Clarity of purpose and certainty in thoughts and action is both a positive and negative – the difference between being a fanatic if wrong, and a visionary if right.

My self-definition by choice, by law, by occupation etc where it warrants and questioned -female, married, mother, wife, banker, Muslim, Malaysian. This is the most basic "who am I" without going into other self-definitions such as book lover and music lover, the genres and areas of interest, the preferences for authors and composers etc.

Of course the self-definition and the delineation is never clear-cut with overlaps in instances and very clear in other instances. Making a casual list of compartmentalisation in my life, I counted and stop at 21 as the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, and one part can be better than another as in being a better cook than most in cooking, but worst than most in sewing.

The details of what kind of woman, what kind of married life, what kind of mother, what kind of wife, what kind of banker and what kind of Muslim is, of course, different for me from other women, married person, mother, wife, banker and Muslim. No two persons are completely alike on everything - in mind, words and deeds, be they believers of the same faith group and atheists.

We hope for, always look for, see and welcome similarities in interests in areas regardless of differences in other areas.

Salam and Happy July 4th to you.

“J”

yes anon-

it is a perceived stereotype-

just like the perceived stereotype you provided- that the qur'an expresses intolerance for people of other faiths-

funny that you took that sentence completely out of context of the entire article imam taylor wrote- which supports and agrees with your contention that it is wrong to judge others by tired stereotypes-

just as verses you might provide would be out of context of the enitre sura to prove that islam is intolerant-

your credibility is shot here- as you've demonstrated an inability to read whole sentences-

any half sentences you provide would be obviously corrupted by your total miscomprehension of a very simple, short article.

if you fail to comprehend such simplicity and brevity and misconstrue it so completley-

one could only imagine how your head must swim when confronted by the depth of the qur'an.

Said Pamela Taylor: "If you're a Christian you have to be socially conservative and intolerant of other faiths."

It is a complete lie. There is not a single, not a
single verse, in the New Testament that states such a thing.

It is however possible to provide verses from the Quran that expresses such intolerance for other faiths.

You begin to lose your credibility as a Muslim in the eyes of Christians when you write such an outright falsehood about Christianity.