Start by Listening to the Real Muslim World

A "red-necked" Catholic = one who is Bred, Born and Brainwashed in the RCC and whose neck turns red when reminded about it.

CCNL

You wrote, "Apparently your brainwashing in "red-neck" Catholicism has turned to wishful thinking and ultimately hallucinations."

What is "red-neck" Catholicism?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

SPARK1

You wrote, "It was repeated word-for-word approximately 1500 years later by Jesus when he said “...The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord.” (Mark 12:29)"

Is this the only thing that Jesus said about God?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Thomas baum:

You said:
No, you and I and everyone else is a human being and we are ALL made in the Image and Likeness of God.

I never disagree with your above statement. My point is that major and basic difference in faith does put us in different clans.

You believe in trinity but I believe in One God.
The three monotheistic religions – Judaism, Christianity, and Islam – all purport to share one fundamental concept: belief in God as the Supreme Being, the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe. Known as “tawhid” in Islam, this concept of the Oneness of God was stressed by Moses in a Biblical passage known as the “Shema”, or the Jewish creed of faith: “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.” (Deuteronomy 6:4)

It was repeated word-for-word approximately 1500 years later by Jesus when he said “...The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord.” (Mark 12:29)

Muhammad came along approximately 600 years later, bringing the same message again:

“And your God is One God: there is no God but He...” (Quran 2:163)

We should here to the prophet and not to our own conjectures.

Thomas, Thomas, Thomas,

There you go again with your biblical "thumptations"!!!!

"I am the Truth" i.e. John 14:6. This passage was, according to many NT exegetes, not said by the historical Jesus but was wishful thinking and an embellishment by John to make Jesus more like the ancient and local gods of first century Palestine. 210-. Place of Life: (1) Dial. Sav. 27-30, (2) John 14:2-12; http://www.faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan2.rtf

Apparently your brainwashing in "red-neck" Catholicism has turned to wishful thinking and ultimately hallucinations.

CCNL

Only God can put limitations on Himself such as He did when He gave us free will.

Father Edward Schillebeeckx, by his own admission, has said what God can and cannot do.

Just because Father Schillebeeckx does not have a clue what predestination is, does not mean that God is not Omniscient.

You wrote, "The man has done "due diligence" with respect to the scriptures and related documents and has put Reality and Truth back into Catholicism."

Are you saying that Father Schillibeeckx has put Jesus back into Catholicism considering that Jesus said, "I Am the Way, the Truth and the Life no one comes to the Father except thru Me"?

Considering that I have met Dad, since I believe that Jesus was speaking the Truth then I must have went thru Jesus, I may not understand how this may have happened but it did.

Also it was the Holy Spirit, Whom Jesus said that He would send to guide us into All Truth, that revealed to me that the Catholic Eucharist is Jesus.

As I have said before, there is the Trinity.

See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Father Edward Schillebeeckx, the famous, contemporary, Catholic theologian, is somehow a god asks the hallucinating T. Baum. Baum must be kidding!!! The man has done "due diligence" with respect to the scriptures and related documents and has put Reality and Truth back into Catholicism.

I am sure god and his/her/it's threesome will note that in our next visit scheduled for this afternoon. CNN has been invited.

The Moderate:

"Watching your discussion over time I must say that while I like you, I do not trust all of your sources and citations. They are often biased or simply discredited. I hope you do not actually believe all of them."

I posted Wikipedia because it shows a dispute. Using sources to make one's case when there is a dispute is dishonest. I'm assuming you read the dispute and pursued the matter from there with other sources. What isn't disputed is that the massacre occurred.

I can't, in this venue, give you a course on the ethical use of source material. However, if you have questions on other sources I've provided or on positions I've taken, let me know, and I'll try to address them one by one as I have this one.

SPARK1

You wrote, " Like, as you do not approve the prophethood of Muhammad therefore you are a different group or clan."

No, you and I and everyone else is a human being and we are ALL made in the Image and Likeness of God.

I have met God and God is a Trinity and God is a BEING OF PURE LOVE and the Catholic Eucharist is Jesus just like Jesus said.

If Mohammed and/or the god of islam said that God is not a Trinity and gets mad at this and at calling Jesus the Son of God then one is a liar and the other has been deceived, it is that simple.

As I have said, God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of religious affiliations or lack thereof and it is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows.

God is NOT an egomaniac.

God cares for ALL OF US and He became One of us in His Plan for All of us to be with Him in His Kingdom, the new heavens and the new earth.

Jesus said a lot of things and just because the god of islam told Mohammed that Jesus was a liar does not make it so.

Not only does the god of islam call Jesus a liar but then he claims Jesus as one of his prophets.

Jesus said, "My Kingdom is not of this world", the god of islam only has this world and this world is passing away and with the passing away of this world, God will deal with the prince of this world.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

CCNL

You wrote, "Depending whose estimate you believe, 45-125 billion people have resided on Mother Earth since the first human clan started thinking about 60,000 years ago. And somehow god and his threesome have only visited one of these 45-125 billion, i.e. Thomas, "The Moses Of the NT", Baum. Strange very strange!! Or maybe Thomas was hallucinating during the claimed visit/ revelation?? Odds are heavily in favor of the hallucination scenario!!!"

When you meet God, if you like you can ask God about this.

You also wrote, ""Christians (et al) must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God the great scapegoat of history.""

If by "predestination" , people think of it as God's puppet show with us as His puppets on a string with absolutely no free will, that we are just preprogrammed automatons then I agree that "that definition" of predestination is absolutely wrong.

If people think of God as being Omniscient and being a "Guide", not a puppeteer, with an ultimate Plan for ALL OF HUMANITY then predestination is not only True but a wonderful part of God's Plan.

If you believe that there might be a God, the God that you believe might be is allfully small and all too human, not at all Divine.

You also wrote, "i.e. No one, not even god can prophesy since that would violate the god/nature-given gifts of Free Will and Future.", concerning something that Father Edward Schillebeeckx wrote.

It seems as if Father Schillebeeckz has made himself into a "god".

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

spark1,

God sent,at least,50 prophets to Middle East but He didnt send only one messenger to Red Indians,Japan,China,Africa,America,Turkic and Germanic peoples and India.

God loves Semitic peoples too much and sent many many,too much prophets but He didnt send only one to rest of the world.

Is this Justice ?
Is this Justice of your God ?
Is this Justice of your Allah ?

Afghanistan,Saudi Arabia,islamic republic of Iran,Egypt found *rightous way/path*,but Japan lost the way.Is this your logic ?

Every country where Muslims live should be considered differently. The politics and values of each country may vary and that should be taken into consideration. An white American Muslim woman is different to an Arabic Muslim woman from Saudi Arabia. It is simplistic to lump all Muslims together. The freedom enjoyed by the lowest rung of the society gives a true reflection of the freedom permitted in that society. The lowest denominators should be compared, not the freedom enjoyed by the rich and powerful.

Be warned that Wikipedia is NOT a reliable source of information because anyone may write an article and anyone may edit it. There is so much propaganda and misinformation in the Wikipedia that anyone who is serious about the truth must refer to published works whose authors and their credibility can be verified. Even authors are not always unbiased, but knowing who they are helps. Wikepedia does not give any indication about who is writing and what their agendas are. So beware of taking it literally.

Depending whose estimate you believe, 45-125 billion people have resided on Mother Earth since the first human clan started thinking about 60,000 years ago. And somehow god and his threesome have only visited one of these 45-125 billion, i.e. Thomas, "The Moses Of the NT", Baum. Strange very strange!! Or maybe Thomas was hallucinating during the claimed visit/ revelation?? Odds are heavily in favor of the hallucination scenario!!!

BTW, there were and are no prophets. There were and there are fortune tellers.

Father Edward Schillebeeckx said it best with respect to god's interaction with the human clan:

From his book, In Church: The Human Story of God, Schillebeeckx says,

"Christians (et al) must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God the great scapegoat of history."

"Nothing is determined in advance: in
nature there is chance and determinism; in the world of human activity there is possibility of free choices. Therefore the historical future is not known even to God, otherwise we and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."

i.e. No one, not even god can prophesy since that would violate the god/nature-given gifts of Free Will and Future.

Schillebeeckx was responding to the Dutch citizens who were blaming god for the North Sea storms that destroyed a significant number of levees resulting in a significant loss of life and severe storm damage. Sound familiar??

thomasbaum:

you said:
There are not "this clan" and "that clan", we are are "one clan", the human race.

Sir, no doubt we are one human race but we are recognised by our "clan". A clan can be based on a school of thought too. Like, as you do not approve the prophethood of Muhammad therefore you are a different group or clan.

God do love all of us and have plans for us, therefore He sent prophets to guide us. As we choose to join the righouts or those who lost the way, we may fell in to a different catagory or clan.

From Wikipedia - World's population

"A more recent estimate of the total number of people who have ever lived was prepared by Carl Haub of the Population Reference Bureau in 1995 and subsequently updated in 2002; the updated figure was approximately 106 billion.[48][49]

Haub characterized this figure as an estimate which required "selecting population sizes for different points from antiquity to the present and applying assumed birth rates to each period".[49] Given an estimated global population of 6.2 billion in 2002, it could be inferred that about 6% of all people who had ever existed were alive in 2002.[48]

Other estimates of the total number of people who have ever lived range approximately from 45 billion to 125 billion, with the more robust of these falling in the 90–110 billion range."

Farnaz,

"There are any number of sources on the slaughter of the Quarayza Jews:

Here's Wikipedia"

Even Wikipedia shows a dispute on this, and it is populated by numerous extremist bloggers who have various, and sometimes extreme, biases.

Watching your discussion over time I must say that while I like you, I do not trust all of your sources and citations. They are often biased or simply discredited. I hope you do not actually believe all of them.

CCNL:

"Approximately 100 billion people have resided on Mother Earth since the first human clan started thinking about 60,000 years ago."

Do you get the numbers you cut and paste from the National Enquirer? Hard to explain them any other way.

Approximately 100 billion people have resided on Mother Earth since the first human clan started thinking about 60,000 years ago. And somehow god and his threesome have only visited one of these 100 billion, i.e. Thomas, "The Moses Of the NT", Baum. Strange very strange!! Or maybe Thomas was hallucinating during the claimed visit/ revelation?? Odds are heavily in favor of the hallucination scenario.

SPARK1

You wrote, "So do not waste your energies with CCNL, ABHAB, HALOZCEL! Thomasbaum and ohter family members of this clan."

There are not "this clan" and "that clan", we are are "one clan", the human race.

God made ALL of us and God has a Plan that is for ALL of us to be with God in God's Kingdom, the new heavens and the new earth.

Even tho there are plenty that don't believe this and there seems to be many that don't even want this, it is God's Will and God's Plan will come to Fruition.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

HSNKHWJ

You wrote, "You are so confused. On the one hand you say that God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent and on the other hand God asked "PERMISSION OF A WOMAN TO BECOME ONE OF US". Wasn't Mary created (He is the Creator) by God? Why then does He need permission? (Requiring permission means subordination to Mary)."

Yes, Mary was created by God.

Asking permission does not mean "subordination", it can mean Love. If Mary were forced to do what she did, rather than freely choosing to do what she did, then it would not be "free will", it is that simple.

God gave us free will and if that free will was not totally free then it would not be free at all.

Mary said YES using her God-given free will.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

CCNL:
The worst book ever written was The Carpetbaggers by Harold Robbins.

As per an expert on the koran and also an ex-Muslim who has felt its wrath:

From Sir Salman Rushdie's book "Satanic Verses", p. 376, paperback issue - for those 1 billion Muslims to read as they are forbidden to purchase or read said book:

an excerpt:

The faithful lived by lawlessness, but in those years Mahound - or should one say the Archangel Gibreel? - should one say Al-Lah? - became obsessed by law.

Amid the palm-trees of the oasis Gibreel appeared to the Prophet and found himself spouting rules, rules, rules, until the faithful could scarcely bear the prospect of any more revelation, Salman said, rules about every damn thing, if a man farts let him turn his face to the wind, a rule
about which hand to use for the purpose of cleaning one's behind.

It was as if no aspect of human existence was to be left unregulated, free. The revelation - the recitation- told the faithful how much to eat, how deeply they should sleep, and which sexual
positions had received divine sanction, so that they leamed that sodomy and the missionary position were approved of by the archangel, whereas the forbidden postures included all those in which the female was on top.

Gibreel further listed the permitted and forbidden subjects of conversation, and earmarked the parts of the body which could not be scratched no matter how unbearably they might itch. He vetoed the consumption of prawns, those bizarre other-worldly creatures which no member of the faithful had ever seen, and required animals to be killed slowly, by bleeding, so that by experiencing their deaths to the full they
might arrive at an understanding of the meaning of their lives, for it is only at the moment of death that living creatures understand
that life has been real, and not a sort of dream.

And Gibreel the archangel specified the manner in which a man should be buried, and how his property should be divided, so that Salman the Persian got to wondering what manner of God this was that soundedso much like a businessman.

This was when he had the idea that
destroyed his faith, because he recalled that of course Mahound himself had been a businessman, and a damned successful one at that, a person to whom organization and rules came naturally, so
how excessively convenient it was that he should have come up with such a very businesslike archangel, who handed down the management decisions of this highly corporate, if noncorporeal, God."

More on Islam and farting:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/1503931/Prayer-Recitation-of-Quran-and-Ablution-or-Bath?query2=islam%20fart

abhab:

You said:
A book with no chronology of events or a sustained theme other than a supremacist diatribe and incitement against the other. It is riddled with inconsistencies and outright contradictions

This my reply for a "sincere" scholar of Quran.

As a matter of fact, this Book is not irrelevant anywhere with regard to is Subject, its Central Theme and its Aim. From its very beginning to its end, the different topics it deals with are so intimately connected with its Central Theme that they may be likened to the beautiful gems of the same necklace, despite their different colours and sizes. The Qur'an keeps the same object in view, whether it is relating the story of the creation of the earth or of the Heavens or of man or is referring to the manifestations in the universe or stating events from human history. As the aim of the Qur'an is to guide man and not to teach nature study or history or philosophy or any other science or art, it does not concern itself with these latter subjects. The only thing with which it is concerned is to expound the Reality, to remove misunderstandings and misconceptions about it, to impress the Truth upon the minds, to warn them of the consequences of wrong attitudes and to invite humanity to the Right Way. The same is true of the criticism of the creeds, of the moral systems, of the deeds of men and communities and of its disussions of the problems of metaphysics etc. That is why it states or discusses or cites a thing only to the extent relevant to its aims and objects and leaves out unnecessary and irrelevant details and turns over and over again to its Central Theme and to its invitation round which every other topic revolves. When the Qur'an is studied in this light, no doubt is left that the whole of it is a closely reasoned argument and there is continuity of subject throughout the Book.

abhab :

You noted:
The book talks of flying horses, speaking ants and arguing birds. It describes an afterlife gardens with rivers of wine and honey.

You intentionally forget to mention some thing else, which this book talks about.

It is about you. It tells, that you were nothing but a drop of water which spilled into the womb of your mother, then you remain in that darkness for 9 months then He make the way easy for you to come out. With zero knowledge you do not know how to get your food the He guided you to the bossom of your mother. Your were so weak and ignorant,that even you cannot clean your dirt.
And then when you grew young you began to argue about God and forget your own birth.
Shame on you for hiding this fact.

CCNL:

I am well open minded person not that which you have commented. you are against Islam and Quran while you do not know anything about it.
Islam means peace this not just for me but for you too.The AIM and OBJECT of the revelations is to invite man to that Right Way and to present clearly the Guidance which he has lost because of his negligence or has perverted by his wickedness

abhab :

Are you a scholar? a researcher? or just a juggler.

What you are telling that you read Quran in arabic many times and providing your conclusions.

It is a matter of intentions which makes the difference.Bad intentions have bad effects.

Any non=believer, infidel, kafir can read as many times. A dogs tail cannot be made straight at all.

halozcel1 :

Your comparision is childish.
Germany was taken into the folds of Nato and brought up after world war while east germany was under russia and trailing far behind where the religion comes in between?
Then you can compare india to butan or egypt with congo????/ what a non-sense.

Islam is the binding brother-hood among one billion muslims, which keeps this vibrant religion a powerful influnce in all spheres of life not just economics as you perceived.
After all Islam do not allow accomulation of wealth by deceiving other like you see in india the "Bania" explioting the poor and making them poorer or the jews with a vicious intrest system robbing the wealthy of rightful owners.

Spark1,

Many thanks to agree with me.You say *why there is NO Democracy in muslim countries*.You accept and admit that there is No Democracy in muslim countries.We agree on First article.

Lets come to Second article;
Why NO Democracy in muslim countries and *Cause*.
You say/mean *The Imperialism and colonial rule*(funny and fifth class mentality)
I say *There is NO Democracy in muslim countries,because islam is not compatible with Democracy,Human Rights and Contemporary Values*

You talk about Germany.Let me write something on Germany.As you know,Germany was razed down during WWII and divided in two parts.,but after 20-30 years Germany recovered and created Economic Giant.Egypt,no war and no war,but Eygpt couldnt creat anything.

Spark1,
What are the causes ?(It seems to me,there is only one cause)
What is the difference between Germany and Egypt ?

Ukba suggests the following:
“If you read the Quran in Arabic like you claimed before, which I doubt very much, then you would know that the speaker in the Quran is God; the words are not Muhammad’s but a revelation from God‘,”

I have read the Quran in Arabic many times and here is what I found.
A book with no chronology of events or a sustained theme other than a supremacist diatribe and incitement against the other. It is riddled with inconsistencies and outright contradictions. It lists legends from Arab and Persian pagans as the literal words of the Creator along with embellished stories from the Old and New Testaments. It is full of scientific heresies, geographical errors, historical blunders, grammatical mistakes and logical fallacies. The book talks of flying horses, speaking ants and arguing birds. It describes an afterlife gardens with rivers of wine and honey and brimming with young black eyed receptive beauties placed there simply to service the Mohammedans.

Spark1,

Spoken like a true, closed-minded Muslim!!! Anyone with an open mind would see that the koran is the "worst book ever written"!!!

Helozcel1

I read your comments. I can argue with you as to why there is no democracy in muslim countries and whose conspiracies are behind it.This forum cannot be for lengthy dissussions.

The imperialism and colonial rule is not yet over, it has changed its shape.

What you talk of democracy? what quality of democracy do you have in India? or why you for get one billion people in china. What is democacy in russia or in eastern europe. what is the condition of civil liberties in africa.
What type of soveriegnity in germany and japan where americans have stationed forces from the time of WWII.
Do you know the condition of democracy in many countries of south america?.
And if any countries and its people have their own system of government then do not compare it with your own, after all your system too is not a standard.

UKBA:

What a surprise? you in your innocence trying to argue with those who are void of any reasonable discussion. These people are stubborn in their own thinking,you cannot set a dogs tail straight even if you keep it tied for a longtime.

Those hate filled critics of Islam and Muslims have nothing to say except to lie, twist the facts, use insulting and filthy language, which shows their own mental.

How there can be any fruitful discussion when they accept you as a muslim and do not accept that
what you believe. That ISLAM is a true religion.
Its teachings are universal for the whole mankind, inviting the people to believe in ONE God and only ONE God. To believe that Muhammad is His prophet and the prophets who came before him.
To believe that Quran is the word of God and the books given to the prophets before Quran were words of God.

The above simple statement cannot be digested by the hate mongers. If they differ with the above statement it is their free will and choice.
Then to argue about what?

Now still if you want to discuss then first you have to admit and respect my position.
It should not be hotch potch, mixing head and tail

So do not waste your energies with CCNL, ABHAB, HALOZCEL! Thomasbaum and ohter family members of this clan.

UKBA,

Though not all that boring, you are not the brightest light on the block. This reinventing of the Tanakh has gone on for a long time. The Christians preceded you, and then we had Joseph Smith. Give it a rest. Judaism says Hashem has a covenant with all peoples. I would suggest you consider the application of that view with respect to your own religion. Proselytizing, especially competitively, does not make friends. You're a big boy. You should have learned that by now.

UKBA,

Actually, you are not all that boring.

UKBA,

You are very boring.

UKBA,

Whatever it is you are, you're not rational. Further, I doubt you're Tunisian, since few are those Tunisians who cannot speak French.

Look up these terms: Supersession, or replacement, ideology, typology.

You cannot take a "revealed" text composed thousands of years earlier and "correct" it by divine intervention, a practice invented by the Christians, btw., and taken from them by your Quoran writers. That begins the insidious typological practice, otherwise known as racism/imperialism, in which (a) you correct another people's beliefs, (b) you demonstrate that their entire textual history looked forward to your own.

Your "points" are not "points" for the above-mentioned reasons. Take it to CCNL.

There are any number of sources on the slaughter of the Quarayza Jews:

Here's Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayzah

Farnaz,

I don’t think you are capable of thinking critically in spite of you being a writer and a teacher. First of all I gave you the reasons and examples of why the bible cannot be taken seriously. But instead of refuting or answering my objections you go on to say:

“Then you Tanakh which predates Quoran by thousands of years makes it explicitly clear that Isaac would have been about thirty to thirty-years old at the time of the binding. The point of the binding was to end human sacrifice forever.”

Your knowledge is based on the bible being truthful and having the final say. However I raised some questions about the reliability of the bible which you seem to ignore. In my opinion there is no way the bible is accurate when it comes to historical facts given its incredibly high number of internal and external contradictions and numerous inconsistencies.

Then you write that the Quran was written thousands of years after the TNK and therefore Muhammad cannot know the facts. This is true if Muhammad was the author of the Quran. If you read the Quran in Arabic like you claimed before, which I doubt very much, then you would know that the speaker in the Quran is God; the words are not Muhammad’s but a revelation from God. You believe it’s true or not is another matter all together; but at least the Quran has to be taken on its own terms.

Just in case you have not read it or forgot this basic fact about the Quran, here are a couple of verses that might help:

Farnaz,

I don’t think you are capable of thinking critically in spite of you being a writer and a teacher. First of all I gave you the reasons and examples of why the bible cannot be taken seriously. But instead of refuting or answering my objections you go on to say:

“Then you Tanakh which predates Quoran by thousands of years makes it explicitly clear that Isaac would have been about thirty to thirty-years old at the time of the binding. The point of the binding was to end human sacrifice forever.”

Your knowledge is based on the bible being truthful and having the final say. However I raised some questions about the reliability of the bible which you seem to ignore. In my opinion there is no way the bible is accurate when it comes to historical facts given its incredibly high number of internal and external contradictions and numerous inconsistencies.

Then you write that the Quran was written thousands of years after the TNK and therefore Muhammad cannot know the facts. This is true if Muhammad was the author of the Quran. If you read the Quran in Arabic like you claimed before, which I doubt very much, then you would know that the speaker in the Quran is God; the words are not Muhammad’s but a revelation from God. You believe it’s true or not is another matter all together; but at least the Quran has to be taken on its own terms.

Just in case you have not read it or forgot this basic fact about the Quran, here are a couple of verses that might help:

To continue scroll down

Ukba pontificates thus:
“Christianity as we have today is but an ad hoc mixture of roman, Hellenic and Judaic view of the creator God. A view which is simplistic at best and anthropomorphic at worst that makes a joke of the divine.”

If Christian make a joke of the Divine for believing in the concept of Trinity what does your belief system make of Him? A man presiding over a place where the only preoccupation of its tenants is a never ending orgy of Muslims with black eyed 33 years old nymphs of recycling virginity and also with preteen boys who double as bartenders.

infantry11b4faus,

New York Times

ARTS & IDEAS/CULTURAL DESK | March 9, 2002

New Torah For Modern Minds

By MICHAEL MASSING (NYT)

origin: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482

New Torah For Modern Minds

Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.
Such startling propositions -- the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years -- have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity -- until now.

The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called ''Etz Hayim'' (''Tree of Life'' in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine document.

''When I grew up in Brooklyn, congregants were not sophisticated about anything,'' said Rabbi Harold Kushner, the author of ''When Bad Things Happen to Good People'' and a co-editor of the new book. ''Today, they are very sophisticated and well read about psychology, literature and history, but they are locked in a childish version of the Bible.''

Continue,

“We inspire you (o Muhammad) as We inspired Noah and the prophets after him, as We inspired Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and as We imparted unto David the Psalms; And messengers We have mentioned unto you before and messengers We have not mentioned unto you; and God spoke directly unto Moses; Messengers of good cheer and of warning, in order that mankind might have no argument against God after the messengers. God was ever Mighty, Wise. But God (Himself) testifies concerning that which He has revealed unto you; in His knowledge has He revealed it; and the Angels also testify. And God is sufficient Witness.”

“[And know, O believers, that] Muhammad is not the father of any one of your men, but is God’s messenger and the Seal of all Prophets. And God has indeed full knowledge of everything.”

“Say (O Muhammad): What thing is of most weight in testimony? Say: God is Witness between you and me. And this Qur'an has been inspired in me, that I may warn therewith you and whomsoever it may reach.”

The speaker here is God who is telling Muhammad what to say and what to teach.

We are told in the bible the stories of creation, Adam and Noah. Then you might be able to tell me: How did Moses know about all that when he was not present to witness those events? Where did Moses get his information from? The answer is that he had a teacher who taught him everything he knows; it was God himself.

In the same manner, Muhammad had the greatest teacher who spoke through him and told us that it was Ishmael and not Isaac. Muhammad did not need to be there to know all the facts about the matter. The speaker again is God. In the Quran you cannot find it said:thus says the Lord; it is always God speaking in the first person.

My, but people back in those good old days were a bloodthirsty bunch! All those things y'all are saying the Koran says oughta be done to disbelievers sound about like what Yahweh said oughta be done to any man that standeth against a wall, who isn't one of his chosen, anyway. They were desert people, of warrior tribes, so duh! Good grief, folks. One would think we'd be over that by now.

Ukba pontificates and then asks::
“In Muslim Toledo, Christian, Jewish and Muslim scholars worked together and translated the ancient Greek philosophical and scientific texts. That was, indeed, the Golden Age. How would this have been possible, had the Prophet decreed the "spreading of the faith by the sword?”

Spreading the "faith" by sword was carried out by your prophet and his henchmen. Peruse the following gems, which area a small fraction of his incitements against those who do not believe in his prophethood, as recorded in your Quran.

Fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah--2:193
Give us victory over the disbelieving folk.--3:147
We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve--3:151
Choose not friends from them [unbelievers]. ... Take them and kill them wherever ye find them.--4:89
Throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.--8:12
Fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah.--8:39
Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush.--9:5
The Jews ... and the Christians ... Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!--9:30
O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you--9:123
---------

UKBA,

It bores the hell out of me to take this on. But go ahead, if you have to, if nothing can stop you. Go right ahead.

Let the firestorm begin. Your move. Banu Quorayza.

The aforementioned Uri Avnari writes:

Jesus said: "You will recognize them by their fruits." The treatment of other religions by Islam must be judged by a simple test: How did the Muslim rulers behave for more than a thousand years, when they had the power to "spread the faith by the sword"?

Well, they just did not.

For many centuries, the Muslims ruled Greece. Did the Greeks become Muslims? Did anyone even try to Islamize them? On the contrary, Christian Greeks held the highest positions in the Ottoman administration. The Bulgarians, Serbs, Romanians, Hungarians and other European nations lived at one time or another under Ottoman rule and clung to their Christian faith. Nobody compelled them to become Muslims and all of them remained devoutly Christian.

True, the Albanians did convert to Islam, and so did the Bosnians. But nobody argues that they did this under duress. They adopted Islam in order to become favorites of the government and enjoy the fruits.

In 1099, the Crusaders conquered Jerusalem and massacred its Muslim and Jewish inhabitants indiscriminately, in the name of the gentle Jesus. At that time, 400 years into the occupation of Palestine by the Muslims, Christians were still the majority in the country. Throughout this long period, no effort was made to impose Islam on them. Only after the expulsion of the Crusaders from the country, did the majority of the inhabitants start to adopt the Arabic language and the Muslim faith--and they were the forefathers of most of today's Palestinians.

Continue,
THERE IS no evidence whatsoever of any attempt to impose Islam on the Jews. As is well known, under Muslim rule the Jews of Spain enjoyed a bloom the like of which the Jews did not enjoy anywhere else until almost our time. Poets like Yehuda Halevy wrote in Arabic, as did the great Maimonides. In Muslim Spain, Jews were ministers, poets, scientists. In Muslim Toledo, Christian, Jewish and Muslim scholars worked together and translated the ancient Greek philosophical and scientific texts. That was, indeed, the Golden Age. How would this have been possible, had the Prophet decreed the "spreading of the faith by the sword"?

What happened afterwards is even more telling. When the Catholics re-conquered Spain from the Muslims, they instituted a reign of religious terror. The Jews and the Muslims were presented with a cruel choice: to become Christians, to be massacred or to leave. And where did the hundreds of thousands of Jews, who refused to abandon their faith, escape? Almost all of them were received with open arms in the Muslim countries. The Sephardi ("Spanish") Jews settled all over the Muslim world, from Morocco in the west to Iraq in the east, from Bulgaria (then part of the Ottoman Empire) in the north to Sudan in the south. Nowhere were they persecuted. They knew nothing like the tortures of the Inquisition, the flames of the auto-da-fe, the pogroms, the terrible mass-expulsions that took place in almost all Christian countries, up to the Holocaust.

Continue,
WHY? Because Islam expressly prohibited any persecution of the "peoples of the book." In Islamic society, a special place was reserved for Jews and Christians. They did not enjoy completely equal rights, but almost. They had to pay a special poll-tax, but were exempted from military service--a trade-off that was quite welcome to many Jews. It has been said that Muslim rulers frowned upon any attempt to convert Jews to Islam even by gentle persuasion--because it entailed the loss of taxes.

Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for 50 generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times "by the sword" to get them to abandon their faith.

THE STORY about "spreading the faith by the sword" is an evil legend, one of the myths that grew up in Europe during the great wars against the Muslims--the reconquista of Spain by the Christians, the Crusades and the repulsion of the Turks, who almost conquered Vienna. I suspect that the German Pope, too, honestly believes in these fables. That means that the leader of the Catholic world, who is a Christian theologian in his own right, did not make the effort to study the history of other religions.”

Actually, every Muslim, and I am one of them, should be grateful for those who had the courage and tenacity so we can have this beautiful book, the Quran, so that everyone can read the unembellished message of truth about the creator and our place in the universe. Otherwise anyone interested in finding answers to the ultimate questions of reality and our existence would be limited to the fancies and dogmas of a Trinitarian Christianity; and be a member of the ‘cult of the three equal gods’, like Newton once quipped. Christianity as we have today is but an ad hoc mixture of roman, Hellenic and Judaic view of the creator God. A view which is simplistic at best and anthropomorphic at worst that makes a joke of the divine.

Chris hedges was right when he wrote: “the rise of Christianity owed more to the brutality of Constantine and the Holy Roman Empire than it did its theology.”

Sorry, but this Isaac, Ismael business is too ridiculous to be continued. Tanakh which predates Quoran by thousands of years makes it explicitly clear that Isaac would have been about thirty to thirty-years old at the time of the binding. The point of the binding was to end human sacrifice forever.

As for Ismael, he was the son of Hagar, as the ancient text makes clear. This is all for literalists, of course.

Ismael was to be the founder of a great nation, and that would be?

The Dome of the Rock is an excellent example of imperialism, as it was literally build over the remains of the Temple. There is no argument about the Temple. It is what we know it to be, has been so designated by archaeologists, by endless numbers of Muslims blessed with five senses like the rest of us.

PLEASE GIVE THIS NONSENSE A REST. What does it have to do with genuine communication?

Hsnkhwj quotes to Farnaz from Avneri
The story about “spreading the faith by the sword is an evil legend, one of the myths that grew up in Europe”.

We then ask for example why did the Muslim general Ibn el 'Asc invade Egypt for example. Some Muslims claim to liberate the Egyptians from the Roman misrule. If so then why did he and his desert Bedouin tribesmen stay? Some say Ibn el 'Asc and his troops came to spread the Muslim faith. They had spread the Muslim faith, and how did they do that if not by the sword? If that were his sole purpose , why did he and his militias stay after they had succeeded? Why did they not go back to Hijaz from where they came? A person has to be an idiot not to realize that this as well as all the other incursions by the successors of the Arab prophet were imperialist wars of the worst type; the type where the invader settles the land, after raiding its wealth and subjugating its indigenous population.

Genesis 2:22 tells the reader: “He [God] said, "Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you."

Notice that the text says “your only son.” Anybody knows that Ishmael was born fourteen years before Isaac; and there is no period of time when Isaac was the only son. It is obvious the writer is biased and playing fast and loose with facts to tell their own version of our forefathers’ story.

If you think the bible is reliable, think again. According 1Kings, David built the temple 480 years after the Exodus:

In the four hundred and eightieth year after the people of Israel came out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon’s reign over Israel, in the month of Ziv, which is the second month, he began to build the house of the LORD.”

However, adding the years in Judges and in other places in the bible, the time from Exodus to Solomon building the temple is at least 561 years.

David Goldstein in his "Of Pharaohs and Dates: Critical Remarks on the Dating and Historicity of the Exodus From Egypt” writes:

"However, things are not so simple. For in fact, beside the summary figure of 480 years from the Exodus to the building of the Jerusalem Temple--which equals 476 years from the Exodus to the enthronement of Solomon-- the Bible provides more detailed chronological data for the same period.

The bulk of these data comes from the book of Judges, which lists the alternating periods of alien domination over Israel and independent rule by Israelite judges, with the total length of these periods adding up to at least 410 years.

The period bridging between the Exodus and the commencement of the era of the Judges (with the death of Joshua the son of Nun) comprises:

40 years of the Israelites' wanderings in the desert prior to the arrival to the eastern bank of the Jordan river (Exodus 16:35, Numbers 14:33-34, 32:13, Deuteronomy 1:3, 2:7, 8:2-4, 29:4)

and the leadership of Joshua, which must have lasted at least 5 years.

The period bridging the end of the era of the Judges (as described in the book of Judges) and the enthronement of Solomon comprises:

40 years of the leadership of Eli (1 Samuel 4:18),

20 years of the people following the Lord under Samuel (1 Samuel 7:2),
2 years of Saul's reign (1 Samuel 13:1), and

40 years of David's reign (2 Samuel 5:4).

So, according to these detailed chronological data, the period from the Exodus to the enthronement of Solomon must have spanned at least:

410+40+5+40+20+2+40= 557 years.”

And if we add four years from Solomon, we have a period of at least 561 years from Exodus to the Temple.

There is a difference of at least eighty one years between the two accounts. One might ask the question: which of the two can be taken as credible or are they both wrong?

I think it’s safe to say that the bible as we have it today is neither credible nor reliable.

That’s not the end the discrepancies and contradictions. In Acts 13:21, the writer tells that:

“And afterward they asked for a king; so God gave them Saul the son of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, for forty years.”

Earlier we saw that Saul reigned for 2 years and here in the Christian bible it is indicated that Saul ruled for 40 years. Notice the discrepancies from a book that’s supposed to be inspired.

Thomas Bau wrote:

"Interestingly tho, God asked permission of a woman to become One of us and Mary said YES."

*************************************************************************

You are so confused. On the one hand you say that God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent and on the other hand God asked "PERMISSION OF A WOMAN TO BECOME ONE OF US". Wasn't Mary created (He is the Creator) by God? Why then does He need permission? (Requiring permission means subordination to Mary).

Do you know that certain drugs can cause hallucinations?

CCNL:
your opinion is your opinion but i must take issue with you on this one:
"1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a
mythical character as was mythical Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt."

i do not doubt that there were abraham and moses. but lets only talk history and leave religion out of it for a moment.

while the jews can show a line - hisotrical and contemporary with their connection with abraham - writing done at the time and in a long flow from that time; and jesus can claim the same connection as he was a jew;
THERE IS NO CONNECTION BETWEEN MOHOMMAD and abraham.
historically i can see that there was a made named hagar and abraham did her and out came ishmael. i can also see writings from that time and continuing that they were kicked out of the house of abraham, and at this happened around 2500 bc, other than mohomman saying he was related sometime around 600 ad - 3100 years later, the thread showing any connection between him and abraham is missing.
the only reason moho said he was a decendent of abraham was his absurd attempt to tell the jews that he - moho - was the real missiah and that they whould worship him as that messiah.

my issue is with the lie that moho had any connection at all with abraham as there are no facts to show it and every time i ask an islamic about it they end up telling me im an insulting moho - which i am.

Time for equal time (for those eyes that have not seen)

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a
mythical character as was mythical Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

Many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and many of their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

Current crisis:

Realization that the Jews are not god's chosen people.

www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. and http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

Current crises:

Pedophiliac priests, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

3. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

Current crises:

Adulterous preachers, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology.

Time for equal time - continued (for those eyes that have not seen)

4. Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the massacre in Mumbai, the assassinations of Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Current crises:

The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) -

"Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."

The caste/laborer system and cow worship/reverence are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

Current crises:

The caste system and cow worship/reverence.

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."
"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life. e.g. Buddha by one legend was supposedly talking when he came out of his mother's womb.

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies, and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.

Well, well, surprise, surprise, Thomas the Moses of the NT Baum is back hallucinating again!!!

Smitisan, you gave me a good chuckle, with, "...I didn't say I was a good one."

Way to go, my friend. With you, a few others, things here at "On Faith" may be looking up.

Fod! If she becomes a Roshi, I am going to need all the friends I can get.

Kidding, of course.

What is so outstanding about America? What is so special about America? Why America is the focus of the world? Simple, because America's values are based (well initially) on Christian values that saw America topped the world in terms of economy. Everyone has freedom to workship and do his own thing in America, why? Thats what the Bible says. If Obama is to follow American values and wants to hold onto freedom, he has to hold on to these values. Again, everyone is free to worship in America. The question is why are Christians not allowed to freely and openly worship or hold prayers in Muslim countries like say Indonesia or Iran? Why are churches in Indonesia being burnt down and christians getting killed in these areas? Where is that freedom? Is that the same freedom you find in America? I dont think so. The goal of Islam is definitely not to uphold these American values but something else. If America stops its support for Israel (praying that it will not), it will do down the drain with more disaster. Why? because thats what God says.

HSNKHWJ

You wrote, "The Bible says that God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. But God is not anthropomorphic."

I never said God was "anthropomorphic", which is just a word to: "ascribing human form or attributes to a being or thing not human, esp. to a deity.", according to one definition.

I said God Is a Trinity and that God is a BEING OF PURE LOVE.

When the Apostles asked Jesus to teach them how to pray, what did He say?

"Our Father", how can you say that the bible does not use "anthropomorphic" terms in it?

In the psalms, God refers to Himself a a Hen Who wishes to protect Her brood under Her Wings, does it not?

When Jesus was baptized by John in the Jordan, a "Voice" called out (Anthropomorphic). Also, the Holy Spirit came down in the form of a Dove.

Not only are there "anthropomorphic" terms used in the bible but also terms from other members of God's Creation used, are there not?

By the way, it was 9 years ago yesterday that God the Father came into my heart and it was 9 years ago today that God the Holy Spirit came into my body and revealed to me that the Catholic Eucharist is Jesus, there is the Trinity which is spoken of numerous times in the bible even if not by the term, Trinity.

Jesus is God-Incarnate and by becoming One of us, He became the Brother of ALL of us.

I happen to believe the reason that God told us not to make a graven image of Him, at least before He became One of us, is that it is impossible to make an image of LOVE even tho we can make an image of LOVE-INCARNATE.

There are many, many places in the bible where God refers to Himself in "anthropomorphic" terms, by the way, God is not a He, a She or an It even tho God-Incarnate became a Male.

Interestingly tho, God asked permission of a woman to become One of us and Mary said YES.

Thank You Mary.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Thomasbaum wrote:

"I have met God and God is a Trinity and God is a BEING OF PURE LOVE."

I hope you are not on drugs.

The Bible says that God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. But God is not anthropomorphic.

iMAGINE:

--
O.ne U.niversal R.eligion is-US!

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United States of The LEVANT
where (North) is Seperate from
the (South) ARABiA. A Prophecy
whose time is cometh.
--

YES WE CAN!

Salaam, Shalom, Peace, Paz, Mir, Frieden, Ahimsa, Zhingyu...

Response to Farnaz:

"“Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for 50 generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times ‘by the word’ to get them to abandon their faith”.

The story about “spreading the faith by the sword”, he says “is an evil legend, one of the myths that grew up in Europe” during the many wars with Muslims."

---Uri Avneri, peace activist in an article 2006

Roadrunner: Thank you likewise for your civility and perspective. That we communicate is all, and that we understand is even more. Your daughter may be right, but like the fellow in Air America (the movie, that is) I only said I was a Buddhist. I didn't say I was a good one.

Smitisan, thank you for asking, and, maybe you "got me." All I know about Buddhism and Buddhists is what I read in Dalai Lama's books; and from my daughter, who is at Upaya Institute, in Santa Fe -- after she spent some years teaching yoga in San Francisco. And that was after the University degree she earned at a women's college in Oakland. (Cost me about $200Grand).

I like the Dalai Lama a lot, and I love my daughter. She has taught me a lot, and seems to have indicated, about Buddhists, that seldom would they involve themselves in this type stuff -- "On Faith." I guess there are exceptions, and if you are a true Buddhist, as she is, no problem. Hey, no problem in any case. I find you civil and respectful.

Certainly, if I am welcome here, you are, whatever you are. Me? My life's avocation is, "How did humans get to be the way they are?"

Having worked hard studying this, for some 30 years (I'm 71), my job is to come here and share the things I have learned. Yes, I do it in a fairly snarky manner, because I don't take anything too seriously, and try to give that example.

Knowing what I know, there is no defence for today's Muslim, in my opinion. I hope they change.

None of us know much, but we do embrace much.

HSNKHWJ

You wrote, "Muslims refer to Jews and Christians as 'The People of the Books' and Islam regards itself as a continuation of the monotheistic tradition established by Abraham."

Does it not say in the Koran that it was Ismael rather than Isaac that Abraham took up the mountain will him?

Does it not also say that Jesus was merely a prophet rather than God-Incarnate?

The Koran is NOT a "continuation of the monotheistic tradition established by Abraham", but a gross distortion.

I have met God and God is a Trinity and God is a BEING OF PURE LOVE.

As I have said many times, God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of religious affiliations or lack thereof. There may be many that will be quite surprised to find out that they can not hide behind their religion whatever it may be.

It is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows.

There is some truth in the Koran for the simple reason that the best liars use some truth, the god of islam is satan but as I have also said before, I do not hold it against Mohammed that he was deceived by satan.

God's Plan is for ALL OF HUMANITY to be with Him in His Kingdom, the new heavens and the new earth.

God's Plan will come to Fruition.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

So, Roadrunner, I get that you like pushing buttons on people. Still curious, however. Why do you think someone who knows something about Buddhism wouldn't post here?

Not off-topic, but broadening it, because many responders are presenting facts, allow me to bore y'all with a little history.

First, there are not more than a few thousand Christians left in the world -- maybe the Amish. No, the facts show that "Christians," since 400 AD, are practicing a jazzed up form of Paganism,, and other like-things. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

The two recognized founders and spreaders of Jesus's teachings are Sts. Peter and Paul. For the first 320 years, or so, the followers of these two Jesus's teachings teachers were out and out practitioners of the most pure form of communism the world has ever seen or known.

Long story short, in around 320 AD, the Roman Emperor, Constantine, talked the Christians into dropping their pacifism and help to the poor, and come fight and work for the Roman Empire. The Christian leaders responded by getting Constantine to agree to change the name "Pagan" to "The Roman Catholic Church," in return for the Christians providing warriors and riches to the Empire.

Done deal.

Nietzsche came very close to the truth, when he observed, "The last Christian died on the Cross."

He said that over a hundred years ago. The next important event, after that, was the film, "Sex, Lies, and Video Tape." ( I hope y'all think that is as funny, as I do).

I don't know about Muslims. Let them all, the Real Muslims and the unReal Muslims, speak for themselves. Hopefully, only to themselves.

I merely wanted to clear up the "Christian" part.

Today's "Christian:" "I owe it all to Jesus, yes. I want to thank my Savior and Lord, Jesus, the Blessed Christ, for getting me a deuce and an ace, on both hands, when I split the 8s."

When 57 nation declared themselves Islamic republics, what does that say to non-Muslims still living there (if any)? Is not that an insult to non-Muslims?

Many Muslims want to (and have) migrated to American. Why hate America that still welcomes Muslims into the country and gives them equal access to education, jobs and religion?

It seems Muslims have some kind of inferiority complex that Islam has failed while Western world is moving forward.

Spark1,

Would you please show only one Democracy in muslim countries.

Could you please write only one islamic land where Human Rights exist.

Would you please point only one *improved muslim country* although some of them have huge amount of money(sample,white robed bedouin Gulf countries)

The venom about ISLAM,inside some of the comments posted shows the boiling lave in the minds of hate mongers.

Their acrobatic twisting of the facts and truth is amusing.

The continuous pain, they have is evident from their continuous presence on this forum, continuing with their same old cut and paste.

Spit on the moon and it will fall on your own face.

Well, "Buddhist," like the man said, there is no enlightenment, for some.

Those who say they read the Koran and know what it means are probably only reading what they want to, just like those who read the Bible the way they want to. I mean, I've studied the Koran, the Mahabharata, the Dhammpadda, the sutras of the Pali canon, the Bible, the Tao Te Ching, Finnegan's Wake, Goethe, Beckett, Blake, Tagore, Rumi, etc etc and so on, and I have no idea what any of them mean. Every day I see a little deeper into their wisdom, and that's about all I can say. I can't pin them down any more than I can the Void, the uncarved block. Like I once heard the Dalai Lama say, I have nothing to teach you. One thing, though, Roadrunner: if you know something about Buddhism, why are you posting here? Ooooh, taste of shenpa!

Pamela, your ideas are simple and powerful. Thank you for sharing. I have read the book by Esposito and Mogahed. It's based on surveys done by Gallup and I know it is changing the minds of thinking people around the world.

There are haters in every society, it's a shame so many of America's least educated seem to beat a path to The Washington Post. I am really disappointed and somewhat worried after reading the quality of reader comments here. I am assuming they are the vocal minority.

Peace.

The Reality of Islam- 101

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the massacre in Mumbai, the assassinations of Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Current crises:

The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.

hsnkhwj:

"The Christian belief in Trinity and the Jewish denial of Prophets Jesus and Mohammad are the sources of disagreements between the followers of these three great monotheistic religions."

One thing I cannot stand is a cowardly liar. You fear the Christians as well you should since they outnumber you, and they're not easily conned. Neither are we Jews, particularly those who have read the Quoran in Arabic.

According to the Quoran, anyone who believes that Jesus Christ was the Son of God is dammed forever.

"God bears witness that there is no god but Him and so do the angels and those possessed of knowledge. In justice, there is no god but Him, He is the exalted, the wise." (Quoran)
______________________________________________
AND at least two thousand years earlier:

"Hear, O Israel, the Lord. The lord is one."
_____________________________________________
Hard to be a divisive suck up in a plural society.

some one once asked me if i would admit that there were good islamics somewhere in the world. i said that if you pointed to someone that was a good islamic they could not, at the same time, be a good human being. no more than you could say someone was a good nazi and a good human being.
one rules out the other.
to be part of a group that says to hate all jews, christians, hindu's, that it is acceptable to kill them, kidnapp them, torture them and hold them for ransom, and that it is acceptable to kill someone who will not convert, anyone who follows those rules, they cannot be a good human being. that is what they have to do to be a good islamics and if they are good islamics they are not good people.
when an islamic says they dont believe in killing the innocent, they forget to tell you that under islam only islamics can be innocent. that is how they can butcher jews and stand up and cheer. or cheer when 911 happened.
so we are supposed to pretend that islamics are really nice people, just long enough to turn our backs so that they can kill us again and then complain that we over reacted by fighting back.
islam started this war in 600 ad, they attacked everyone around them, forced islam on them, killed tens of thousands of hindus, enslaved hundreds of thousands, attacked africa and forced islam on them, attacked and enslaved sicily and southern italy, sacked rome twice, took over spain, took over turkey - the original christian state, and then complain when christians fight back.
after 1400 years one would think we would wake up to what islam is doing.

timmy2 Author Profile Page:

Uh, the muslims were not fighting for their survival at the time. They were conquering an empire through bloody massacre and killing babies and raping women and subjugating everyone in their path. You think Islam grew to be the largest empire in the world by the peaceful spreading of the good word of Mohammed? lol. They're called the "muslim conquests" not "the muslim struggles to survive". Get a grip...."

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Your rant smacks like that of a paranoid individual who suffers from Excessive, Compulsive Personality Disorder.

When Prophet Mohammad started preaching monotheism, Arabia was dominated by pagans who worshiped 360 gods (polytheistic). He started teaching monotheism.

Kaaba was a big source of revenue for these pagans. Monotheism was a threat to them. They conspired to kill him. He escaped along with a small group of followers. The people of Yathrib (Medina) were waiting for him and welcomed him.

His message of monotheism and his challenge to ills of Arab society of that time was appealing to the people. The numbers grew. Muslims liberated Mecca. Muhammad declared general amnesty.

I can not help your ignorance and prejudice. You will have to start reading the history from the beginning and the developments that followed over 22 years when Quraan was revealed verse by verse and event by event.

HSNKHWJ,

YOU WROTE: "In this well-orchestrated campaign, reference is often made to those verses of the Quran (the collection of which took place over 22 years) which were revealed in actual battle conditions when the first Muslims were fighting for their survival. Reading them out of context would obviously lead to a gross misunderstanding of the teachings of Islam"

Uh, the muslims were not fighting for their survival at the time. They were conquering an empire through bloody massacre and killing babies and raping women and subjugating everyone in their path. You think Islam grew to be the largest empire in the world by the peaceful spreading of the good word of Mohammed? lol. They're called the "muslim conquests" not "the muslim struggles to survive". Get a grip.

A dialog is an exchange of ideas or opinions on a particular issue, with a view to reaching an amicable agreement or settlement or the very least acknowledging that differences exist.

From the Muslim perspective, there is room for such a dialog. Muslims refer to Jews and Christians as 'The People of the Books' and Islam regards itself as a continuation of the monotheistic tradition established by Abraham. This does not mean that the three faiths are identical. The Christian belief in Trinity and the Jewish denial of Prophets Jesus and Mohammad are the sources of disagreements between the followers of these three great monotheistic religions.


Nevertheless, the Quran still assigns a special place to Christians and Jews as is evident from many verses, including this one:

And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you; our God and your God is One and we are committed to observe peace before Him (Al-Ankabut: 46).

Apart from the differences of details, the long history of political conflict between Islam and Christianity has tended to color the West's view of Islam. Even though the 9/11 was perpetrated by a small group of terrorists, many in the West have used guilt by association to demonize Islam. The politicians and sections of the media have tended to portray Islam as a religion that preaches perpetual war on the followers of other faiths.


In this well-orchestrated campaign, reference is often made to those verses of the Quran (the collection of which took place over 22 years) which were revealed in actual battle conditions when the first Muslims were fighting for their survival. Reading them out of context would obviously lead to a gross misunderstanding of the teachings of Islam.

Karinaz,

YOU: "As a muslim, it really saddened me to see such ignorant and racial comments"

Racial? Can you give some examples? I've seen no racial comments only criticisms of religion and religious people. You do know that Islam is not a race don't you?

YOU: Don't believe everything you see on the media-what you see is what certain ppl in the U.S want you to see. Go educate yourself before criticizing another religion. May Allah help you all find the way.

I have educated myself on Islam. I have read the Koran and studied the history of Islam. And I stand by everything I have said about it. If you'd like to challenge any of my specifics, by all means give it a whirl. The facts and the Koran are on on my side.

Seems to me both the real and unreal Muslim world should get a new spokesperson. Pamela K. Taylor's "speaking" has been nullified by only these few comments, so far.

As for our friendly Buddhist, he/she has no idea of what Buddhism is, or he/she would not be posting here.

As a muslim, it really saddened me to see such ignorant and racial comments. There is no point of me hating back-because uneducation breeds ignorance and until Allah (God) allows some light to be shed on your lost souls- you will stay in the dark. It's America's Foreign Policy that is the problem-not what America Stands for. I love America but I also love my religion. America has freedom of religion yet the Bush Administration followed Catholic Zionism. Think about it; their neverending support for Israel? Support of Israel is one of their top prioritys in Foreign Policy. People dieing in America? What about other countrys? Don't believe everything you see on the media-what you see is what certain ppl in the U.S want you to see. Go educate yourself before criticizing another religion. May Allah help you all find the way.

There are important differences that timmy2 and
Smitisan fail to see. First, the Bible went through significant reform (e.g., from the Old to the New Testament). Second, I have met a lot of Christians who openly question some of the fundamental statements in the Bible--they don't take it literally. But I have not run into one Muslim who openly question their Koran. Not one. (Perhaps they are scared of a fatwa from some mullah somewhere). And I know a lot of Muslims. So let's not kid ourselves.

Smitisan.

You are correct. The Bible is equally disgusting.
I am an equal opportunity monotheism basher.

I have read the Koran, but it must have been a very different translation. I've read the Bible too, and it's every bit as bloody and xenocidal as you seem to think the Koran, and it also asks me to believe some pretty crazy happen in caves and stables. Maybe I should get another translation?

I agree completely with CCNL. The Koran is the worse book ever written. It is in terrible need of a thorough revision and the sooner the better. That Muhammed fellow has done a singular disservice to mankind. I mean just look at all the mindless violence, hatred, discrimination, bigotry, all in the name of Allah and the Koran. It's horrible. Then they say the Koran is the word of God. Muslims should find a real good editor to completely re-write the Koran, and stop the divide brought on by this stupid philosophy espousing us versus them, believers versus kafirs, men versus women, Dur-ul-Islam and Dur something and God knows what other divisions. What a distorted and stupid philosophy.

EDITOR4TONIO ,

Sorry about the misspelling of your handle.

Editorfortino,

YOU WROTE: "There is no such thing as a " Muslim World" or an "Arab World." ! Each Muslim or Arab country is a world in itself,by itself,of itself,for itself,etc.!

HEAR HEAR. DITTO. THANK YOU. MY POINT EXACTLY!
This "muslim world" term must go bye bye.

YOU WROTE: "The Arabs ? It is unthinkable to elect an Arab woman as a prime minister or as a president ! Why not ? It is a long story"

No it's not. They just follow the book more literally is all. The instructions on misogyny are clearly laid out in the book. The muslims in the countries who have elected women are ignoring certain tenets in the book because they don't correlate with modernity. Hopefully they will continue this trend until they eventually scrap the whole thing.

YOU: but may be after the Americans elect a woman as president the Arabs might change their minds!

Doubt it. Since when did they ever follow what the American do?
They could have chosen to copy Great Britain 20 years ago. They aren't waiting for anybody to show them the way. They already know the one true way. It is written clearly in the book.

There is no such thing as a " Muslim World" or an "Arab World." ! Each Muslim or Arab country is a world in itself,by itself,of itself,for itself,etc. ! And there is a huge difference between the Muslim countries and the Arab countries .One example :Muslims in coutries,like Indonesia,Bangladish,Pakistan and Turkey,repeatedly voted and elected females as presidents and prime ministers ! The Arabs ? It is unthinkable to elect an Arab woman as a prime minister or as a president ! Why not ? It is a long story,but may be after the Americans elect a woman as president the Arabs might change their minds !

Ms Taylor supposedly quotes a study that debunks “American myths” regarding Muslims thus:

“The study debunks many of the myths spouted by the Bush administration vis-a-vis the Muslim world supposedly hating American values, freedom of speech, and democracy. The vast majority of the Muslim world aspires to these same values for their own countries."

I let Montedero‘s comment today on another blog be the reply to Ms Taylor’s assertion.

“The best proof of that (Muslims do not subscribe to the values of the West in general and the USA in particular)is the fact that the entire 57 countries of the "Muslim world" have rejected the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which enshrines the values our civilization most cherishes, such as freedom of conscience, freedom of religion, freedom of expression, equality before the law and gender equality. Instead, ALL 57 Muslim countries have signed on to the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam which enshrines the basic values of Islam: that Islam is superior to all other religions and that all human rights must be in accordance with and subject to the sharia. That, of course, includes subordination of all non-Muslims and of women.”

You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

Pamela K. Taylor,
as it's well known, the orders from the Qur'am are not compatible with our democracy, because in democracy we are all equal under the laws, while by orders of the Qu'ram the women and the non believers have not all the same rights as the others. The majority of american muslims are not rejecting the Qu'ram, hence are not for our type of democracy.
Are you really so naive and gullable to believe that in 610 CE in some mountain's cave near Mecca happened you know what? Come on, wake up!

Smitisan,

Well, Timmy, that's the same sort of thing I heard about the Vietnamese and japanese and Chinese.

First of all, bad analogy. These are nationalities not religions. Big big difference.

YOU: But if no one listens to ANY of them, how else could they be heard but "in a bad way?"

UNfortunately I have to agree with CCNL here. The Koran speaks for all muslims since they ALL revere and pray on that book. Have you read it? Anyone who prays on this book, clearly written by a psychopath, is deluded or brainwashed. This does not automatically make them a bad person. Delusion is something to sympathize with, not hate. But the book and ideology that created the religion can be hated without showing ill will towards any human. If I bash slavery, I am not bashing slaves. People of Islam are victims, whether they know it or not.

SMITISAN

I was drafted into the army and I was sent over to Vietnam in 71 and I met a few Vietnamese and the ones that I met were some of the finest people on the face of the earth.

I am a Catholic and I cherish my Catholic Faith and I have met God, Who is a Trinity and a BEING OF PURE LOVE and I have also met satan.

It seems as if there are going to be quite a few people that are going to be quite surprised to find out that God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of religious affiliations or lack thereof and that it is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows.

Also that God cares for each and every one of us and God would like it if we cared for each other rather than some of the reality that is happening in this world.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Well, Timmy, that's the same sort of thing I heard about the Vietnamese and japanese and Chinese ((collectively, the g***s) back in the seventies, when I was in the Army and supposed to be fighting them. But I got to know some, and that's a big part of why I'm a Buddhist now. Yes, there are billions of Muslims out there, and you're right that no one speaks for all of them. But if no one listens to ANY of them, how else could they be heard but "in a bad way?" There are people in Lebanon, in Iraq, in Iran, talking to them, and sometimes they do get killed, sometimes in horrendous ways, but that goes with the territory over there or in our inner cities, but I've often been surprised, in a good way, in some neighborhoods I've been told no white man should go into. In bad ways too, sure, but not nearly as much.

Smitisan,

YOU SAID: "Go out and meet some Muslims, talk to them, and try, really try, to listen. I bet you'll be surprised in a good way"

Maybe here in the US, but try the same thing in Gaza or in Lebanon or in Iran. I think you'll be the one surprised, in a bad way. You are right that no one speaks for all muslims. Especially not the US muslims that you suggest we talk to. They only speak for an extreme minority of the billions of muslims out there.

It's amazing what people think they know about Muslims and Islam. I'm Buddhist, so maybe I don't have a dog in this fight, but sometime ago a Muslim group bought some property in our area to put up a mosque, and I attended some city council meetings where some voiced their objections. The man who got the most attention was a fellow who said that Muslims are obligated to pray at a mosque, so five, maybe even six times a day we'd have hundreds of cars going up there and coming back. That led to a whole bunch of people almost tearfully pleading that their children playing in the neighborhood be kept safe from all these cars! Most of these folk didn't even live on that street. When it came my turn to speak, I couldn't resist reminding them of the dangers posed by camels and flying carpets. To Halozeli and CCNL: who decides who's a "real" Christian? Or a real Buddhist or Catholic or what? Does it take a bomb going off to get you to hear a still, small voice? Then you'll get your bomb. Go out and meet some Muslims, talk to them, and try, really try, to listen. I bet you'll be surprised in a good way.

Engaging the Muslim World: A Communication Strategy to Win the War of Ideas

http://www.brookings.edu/papers/2007/0411islamicworld_singer_Opp08.aspx

"Who/What Speaks for Islam"??

The koran, the worst book ever written, that is who/what!!!

And what do we see in the world, Islamic crazies following the dictates of this book resulting in the following recent atrocities:

1a) 179 killed in Mumbai/Bombay, 290 injured

1b) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh

2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US Troops, 3,402 combat and 822 non-combat) and 90,253 – 98,521I raqi civilians killed, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

8) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

Mahabar Sister T A Y L O R, et al:

To 'Listen' to the Holy-i No-Man/Womb is to 'MEDiTATE'. And

To 'Speak' to the Holy-i NO-Man/Womb is to 'PRAY.

Both these TRUTHs (opposite of MYTH) nourishes 'HOPE' become Ye Reality or a loved one's Reality!

InShalah! Allah Kareem! Praise The Lord! The Rock (ALMiGHTY) et al!

Dear Pamela K.Taylor,
Science Fiction Writer,Imam.

By your permission,some questions and considerations on *Start by listening to the Real Muslim World*

1-*Real Muslim World*.If there is/are *Real One(s),that means there is/are *Unreal one(s)*.My first question;
Who makes desicion,who judges *which one is real,which one in not* Is there any Islamic High Court/Authority which says *Those are Real Muslims,those are not*
2-It seems to you,*which countries are Real Muslim and which ones are Unreal Muslims*
3-You say *the vast majority of the Muslim World aspires to the same American values of freedom of speech(perfect science fiction) and Democracy(do muslims know what Democracy is).Would you please show those *vast majority*
-There are 57 muslim countries on the earth.*Vast majority* means at least 40-45 ones aspire the same American/Contemporary Values.Which ones ???
-Democracy.Yes,Democracy that muslims aspire.Would you please write any Democratical Muslim Land ?
-*Muslim World*.Such as many other Panelists(sample,Greek Hamza Yusuf) and some Posters,you are using *Muslim World*.Although you have large scale muslim friends from all over the world,how can you speak in the name of *Muslim Worls*.For example,did Iranian muslims,Turkish muslims,Saudi muslims,Pakistani and Indonesian muslims give you *letter of attorney* to speak in the behalf of them ?