Celibate Clergy and the Reins of Power

the very fact that judeochrislamic scripture treats women as second (at best) class citizens reveals that it is NOT divine. it was written by UNINSPIRED MEN.

Are men biologically inferior for being unable to bear children, Pamela?

I ask the question because it provokes three further questions:

(1) Is it possible for things to be different, distinct, and yet equal? We are not here speaking about public schools, but about God's divine plan. Might God choose to make things complementary (and therefore different, almost opposite) and yet esteem them both of equal value? What are yin and yang without each other, Pamela?

(2) Are the differences between men and women only biological? A materialist thinks there is nothing but the biological. But one who believes in spiritual realities must here ask whether those realities relate to the material, biological dimension of the human person. Those who side with the Catholic Church will agree that our bodies are valuable and that they relate to our souls in an intimate way. Spiritual differences are grounded in the more obvious material differences.

(3) Are spiritual realities as real as biological realities? If they are not, and if spiritual realities are all just relative to whoever is asking, then who the heck are you, Pamela, or anybody else, to tell somebody else how to arrange their own private spiritual universe? But if spiritual realities are real, and are grounded in biological realities, and if those realities occur between the sexes in ways complementary to each other, but without rendering one sex or the other inferior, might it be possible that as childbearing is the special province of one sex, by God's design, so is priesthood of the other?

Why not?

Pamela, you have frequently complained about others misunderstanding Islam and criticizing it without foundation. You might extend the same respect to other religions that you desire for your own. Your little sermon, in any event, would probably be better preached in the Middle East than on the East Coast, and to your coreligionists than to mine. But I guess preaching to nasty Catholics is safer. We don't cut off so many heads.

that is SO TYPICAL of muslim apologists: pamela quotes only the good part of verse 2:228. as halozcel1 demonstrated, THE VERY NEXT PRASE, nullifies the good part. unless you've got a koran, or are a muslim scholar the there's no way you could know this. your average person taking pamela at her word might come away thinking verse 2:228 is a good verse and that maybe islam IS a religion of peace....sheesh...

abhab, avp_65, Farnaz1Mansouri1, halozcel1, Arif2:
would you call this "taqiyya"?

Muslims please, in a free society you at all costs must avoid quoting the koran, avoid quoting that one good deed of your prophet (I can't recall it). Avoid topics such as women’s rights, equal rights; human rights... in fact avoid the whole issue of rights whenever you can. Otherwise you will be reminded time and again that Islam is the worst religion on this planet. Notice people quoting demeaning and misogynic verses from that same book of yours?
Pamela please don't talk about women’s rights when you wear a towel over your head, do you think we will be aroused by you with or without that wrap? Oh I forgot its for Allah! He can't stand seeing a woman’s full head of hair.

You commenting about the Catholics while somewhere in the Muslim world they are legalizing raping ones wife.

AVP 65,

COW chapter 228 says *...and they have rights similar to those against them in a just manner,and the men(husband) are a DEGREE above them(wives)*
COW chapter 228 has no any correlation with sexual and woman-man equality.On the contrary,protects husband's right on his baby in her womb.
This is Alice in Wonderland interpretation,such as 49.13 which says
*We(it should be I,it's another interesting Pronoun in quran) have created you male and female,and have made you into nations and tribes....* never and never mean *the spiritual equality of all human beings without regard to race,gender,nationality etc.*
In submission/islam;
-Muslim indisputably excels non-muslim/infidel.
-Male indisputably excels female.
-Son excels daughter.

Besides,Christians(those who believe in Trinity,Son of God,Bible etc.) are damned.
Jewish People cursed by islam(but,islam is a bad imitation of the cursed people belief)
Yellow Race(Chineses etc.) are dangerous people.
Glory of Allah(Bahaullah) mentor Bab murdered by muslims and Glory of Allah followers are persecueted and second class citizen in islamic Iran
Hindus are being mocked by Vagina Cutters(muslims in Egypt and Sudan and somewhere)

Pamela,

Really. It's always a good idea to reread one's essays before one posts them.

avp_65,
i totally agree that the koran needs to be "reinterpreted" (i would actually say "reritten"). is that possible in islam. is it possible for a muslim scholar to write some NEW hadiths?

how many husbands do you thing a wife should be allowed to have?

The Qur’an must be re-read and re-interpreted in today’s context as the classical jurists read and interpreted it in their own context. No reformation is possible without such re-reading and re-interpreting the Qur’anic verses. The real intention of the Qur’an - that of sexual equality - comes through several verses. Those verses need to be re-emphasised. The verse 2:228 (“And women have rights similar to those against them in a just manner”) is quite definitive in this respect. It hardly needs any comment. Maulana Muhammad Ali, a noted Pakistani commentator says commenting on the above verse, “The rights of women against their husbands are here stated to be similar to those which the husbands have against their wives. The statement must, no doubt, have caused a stir in a society which never recognised any rights for the woman. The change in this respect was really was a revolutionising one, for the Arabs hitherto regarded women as mere chattels. Women were given a position equal in all respects to that of men, for they were declared to have rights similar to those which were exercised against them. This declaration brought about a revolution not only in Arabia but in the whole world, for the equality of rights of women with those of men was never previously recognized by any nation or any reformer. The woman could no longer be discarded at the will of her `lord’, but she could either claim equality as a wife or demand a divorce.” (Maulana Muhammad Ali, 1973,Pp-97).

http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~rtavakol/engineer/genderj.htm

pamela,
one of the most heartwarming verses demonstrating the enlightened nature of the koran has got to be,

"Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel above the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah has guarded. As for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and SCOURGE them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great." (sura 4:34)

see? a muslim is not to beat any of his wives UNLESS she really deserves it! and if she behaves after that, she can be forgiven. lovely.

Ms Taylor pontificates thus:
“Like the Catholic nuns who have pursued ordination, so too groups of Muslim women are standing up for their right to lead prayers.”
Nuns run charities, hospitals, schools and universities. What are Muslim women doing besides breeding like rabbits?
If women according to your faith are spiritually equal to men, as you claim, your prophet would not have preached that most of the dwellers of Hell are women.