Hasan's calculated distortions of Islam

At the end of the day when all the voices have been heard that Central Issue that divides the West and Islam will remain.Our approach to Religion is DEFECTIVE!All religion... There is only ONE approach:There is ONLY ONE GOD! Now, let us agree on THAT!and under this approach let us resolve our differences.All else is inherently defective as a means to human social development.

btw, the parts in bold below are my insertions. in this verse the "oath" and "covenant" refer to the previous verse's "if they repent and become muslim", i think. that seems to be the plain reading of it. don't know if "muslim commentators" in the ahadith have said anything about this verse?

to pamela on "calculated deceptions" (continued):

now, what the korans ACTUALLY "goes on" to say about "relations between faith groups" in the verses after the horrible 9:5 verse is:

11."But (even so), IF they repent, ESTABLISH REGULAR PRAYERS, and practise regular charity,- they are your brethren in Faith: (thus) do We explain the Signs in detail, for those who understand. 12. But if they violate their oaths [of repentence] after their covenant [to become muslim], and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained. 13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe! 14. Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers."

so basically...slay the idolators...unless they become muslim (or accept second-class status - dhimmitude).

yuk.

oh pamela...do they teach "calculated distortions of islam" in koran study groups?

you try to excuse v9:5 with the standard "out of context" defense. so, let's look at the context. after the famous "slay the pagans (idolators)" part, you quote the rest of v9:5: "Yet if they repent, and TAKE TO PRAYER and charity, let them go their way: for, behold, God is much forgiving, a dispenser of grace."

sheesh...."take to prayer" means BECOME MUSLIM!

you go on to quote v9:6: "And if any of the pagans seek your protection, grant him protection, SO THAT HE MIGHT BE ABLE TO HEAR THE WORD OF GOD; and thereupon convey him to a place where he can feel secure: this, because they are a people who have not heard the truth."

the koran's reason to "make nice" with these pagans is to hopefully make them into muslims.

now, pamela, here's the calculated deception on your part. you say,
"Perhaps even more important, Hasan ended his discussion of abrogated verses with the passage that he believed permits offensive Jihad, IMPLYING THAT THOSE ARE THE FINAL WORDS the Qur'an has to say about the matter. In actuality, the Qur'an GOES ON to prescribe relations between faith groups in a much different way, laying down verses for living in mutual harmony and peace."

then you quote the lovely "perfected religion" verses from v5:3-5 - which come BEFORE the horrible 9:5 verse. so, you say the koran "goes on" to prescribe "living in mutual harmony and peace", but quote something that came before the horrible verse in question. i'd say that's a calculated distortion. note also that the lovely peace and harmony verses apply to "people of the book". sheesh...such is the islamic world view that there are levels of discrimination: vs. "people of the book" and vs. garden-variety pagans...

justillthennow: You're quoting the Old Testament. There are too few practicing Jews out there for that to create much of a problem in the real world. Christians care about the New Testament, and Jesus said to love your enemies, not kill them. That's a difference that can't be "interpreted" away.

Posted by: qaz1231 | November 12, 2009 6:48 PM
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Hilarious. The numbers of peoples--Jews, Muslims, Indians of the Carribbean, the Americas, the numbers of aboriginal peoples in Austria, the numbers of Africans, Hindus, etc., etc., slaughtered by NT waving Christian murderers probably numbers at least a few billion.

How could it be otherwise? The Christians are "God's people." One hears their ministers and priests repeat this mantra endlessly on TV, in their churches, in their mega-churches, probably in front of the mirror.

Why do they kill? Why are they killing right now in Afghanistan and Iraq, for example? They believe their is a God so viscous that he held mankind responsible for a transgression made by the original heterosexual twosome in the Garden of Eden.

This evil is inherited, say the Christians, and could only be removed by the torturing to death (human sacrifice) of a man-god, said god being the Son of God, the unforgiving.

Sex becomes part of sin, and one of their luminaries writes that it would be best if no one had sex so that the world would come to an end.
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Armed with this Religion of Love, the Christians have become a menace not only to the race but to the planet.

Rumsfeld and gang quoted the Bible, but up posters with quotes from the NT in Iraq.

Sort of the Christian version of yelling Allah akbar, while deploying tanks, fighter jets, bombing folks, and tallying up this months oil profits.

Pamela K. Taylor is a phony Muslim. Who gave her the right to try to interpret the Quran's meaning. She has absolutely no Islamic "understanding", btw she stands for the woman imam movement. This is obviously harram (forbidden) in Islam (women cannot lead prayers over men), so she is trying to amend this religious. Pamela K. Taylor, you are one of the reasons this ummah is being humiliated by Allah(swt).

justillthennow: You're quoting the Old Testament. There are too few practicing Jews out there for that to create much of a problem in the real world. Christians care about the New Testament, and Jesus said to love your enemies, not kill them. That's a difference that can't be "interpreted" away.

Hello Onestring,

Very nice post of November 11, 2009 3:20 PM.

Hello Straightline,

"Distortion of Islam...sorry ain't buying that for a second."

And what, pray tell, might your take on distortion of Christianity be? Not possible? Possible, but unlikely? Impossible, the Word is clear?

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Hey, let us vote for impossible to misinterpret. Even though contradictory interpretations have been going on for centuries. Are there any good Christians out there, with this being a part of their religious creed? Yes? I am sure there are. Likewise I am sure the same is true in Islam.

The Quran asks the Muslims to desist from fighting the unbelievers (in Mohammad) until the termination of the agreed upon armistice period or until the other side somehow violates the agreements, according, off course, to the Muslims’ interpretation. This last excuse was invoked whenever Mohammad and his followers felt that reneging on their agreed upon obligations would be to their military advantage. Nothing was sacred in their drive to wealth and power.

It is a wonder to me how people can make statements about the all the violence caused by Muslim extremists without taking into account the two wars we are engaged in which have caused untold destruction and resulted in hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths to date. Every stray bullet of ours that kills a civilian and every 500 lb bomb we drop that does collateral damage perpetuates this cycle of violence and makes the extremists in that region that much stronger. So please, spare us the analysis of the Quran's verses and how Islam, as a religion, is the root cause of all the World's problems.

Hassan in my opinion, is / was obviously psychotic, and someone should have red flagged his behavior before he could perpetuate his horrific deed. Yes, shockingly, even I, as an American Muslim, would have had serious cause for concern based on what I read about his behavior at Walter Reed and other places. Political Correctness, B.S.; someone obviously dropped the ball or passed the buck when it came to dealing with an obvious problem.

And yes, there is ZERO room in the American Muslim community for those people who are willing to resort to violence as a means to express their dissatisfaction with our government's foreign policy or otherwise.

When there are so very, very many who espouse the same interpretation of Islam, people like Ms. Taylor who claim that this interpretation is "distorted" lack credibility. It rather looks to the outsider that it is the "moderates" such as Ms. Taylor who have the distorted view of Islam.

Ok, Ms. Tayor, maybe you and Eboo can design an Islamic Competency Test and only those who can demonstrate sufficient knowledge of true Islam can call themselves Muslims.

Meanwhile, I'll assume the people from the culture that murders innocent nuns over cartoons, throws acid on girls going to school and honor kills their own relatives over boyfriend choices are worth a wary eye.

The worst type of Muslim is those born non Muslim who convert. This Taylor broad is probably some self hating white liberal who found a cool new religion to play with I believe nothing she says.

When is the Post going to give us an honest discussion on Islam? This certainly is not it.

Hasan did not engage in a suicide attack. He is a Jihadist, as distinct from a suicide bomber.

Pay no attention to that 'lesser jihad' behind the curtain! the Quran does NOT give permission to slay all non-believers, only those who fail to pray after you have forced them to sign a covenant with you saying they will pray....or some such gibberish. Are these Muslim apologists good lawyers or what?

I appreciate Ms. Taylor's offerings here, but I know darned well that people on either side of this debate will find all kinds of arguments for and against her. (Sadly, one or two of you always end up sounding like children bickering on the playground.)

Religious texts are words. WORDS. Not numbers. The precise meaning of any word can change within context and over time; many can simultaneously and validly hold different meanings and implications (ever looked in a thesaurus?). There's a reason that some people spend their entire lives studying religious texts.

However, fundamentalists of all kinds don't usually examine their books from varying angles. Extremists claim an exclusive hold on "The One True God" or "The One True Way," or "The True Word of God," and so on. Unfortunately, it's nearly impossible to carry on a discussion with those who celebrate such narrow-mindedness.

I think when we seek understanding of any religious text we shouldn't forget the larger picture: one individual's or sect's interpretation doesn't represent ALL teachings of that faith. My friends and acquaintances come from many different religions, including Islam, and I still believe that most of us have more sense than your traditional Fundie. Thank God.

What I think is the most interesting belief of Hasan's is that Muslims should not be fighting other Muslims. If Iran and Iraq had been aware of that in the early '80s, they could have averted the Iran-Iraq war. Apparently they missed the memo....

This whole episode shows how community affects people. For those who believe that members of a church/synagogue/mosque can go to services and be immune to the negative is dangerous thought. A mosque that hosts such a vile character as Anwar al-Awlaki and allows him to spew his vile beliefs needs to look deep inside of itself and see if it really is as moderate as they want us to think. I would personally not trust anyone coming out of that mosque, as a matter of personal security.

Instead of discussing whether or not Hasan's views were a perversion of the Koran, we should be asking if the Koran gave him perverse views in the first place.

Personally, I don't blame someone for killing "infidels" if they truly believe that heaven is their eternal reward. It's pure insanity, but if you think you're being a good Muslim by killing certain people, who am I to argue?

This is why religions of all stripes are dangerous at their core; it's all about the "afterlife." Forget the life you actually have here and now, it's worthless. It's your "soul" that matters.

The Koran is hogwash. So is the Bible. So is every other religious text our supremely slow- witted ancestors came up with.

I think people who believe that Heaven will be their eternal reward tend to do some highly questionable things while they're here on Earth. As an athiest, I've never been scared of God's wrath. But I'm terrified of people who are.

EBJLB says: "Jihad, both internal and external, has more to do with a devout Muslim's obligatory response to INJUSTICE, particularly when directed against the Muslim community, rather than encouraging "offensive,aggressive warfare" as is suggested in this article."

Can you tell me a few occasions in history when Muslims waged a jihad in response to injustice directed at non-Muslims? NATO bombed Serbia, a fellow Christian country, when they were oppressing Muslims in Bosnia. Is there one occasion in history when Muslims fought other Muslims to protect non-Muslims?

And as far as Muslims are concerned, the list of grievances is endless - Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine, Israel, Kashmir, Chechnya, Dagestan, Xinjiang, Darfur, Lebanon, al-Andalus...As someone once said, Muslims have grievances like dogs have fleas.

ARE YOU SAYING THAT...GEORGE W.BUSH SCREWED UP ROYALLY...DO YOU MEAN WE SHOULD HAVE INVADED SAUDI ARABIA INSTEAD OF IRAQ???HOW DARE YOU!NOT IN MY PROGRESSIVE AMERICA YOU DON'T...FREE SPEECH... WHAT A WASTE OF PAPER&INK...WHERE'S MY ERASER AND COPY OF THE CONSTITUTION...NOW YOU'VE DONE IT!THIS WILL TAKE--CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS&CAIR&OBAMA&HOLDER&US CONGRESS MORE MONEY TO OVERCOME THIS 'SNAFU'.

WHICH POLITICAL PARTY SHOULD I VOTE FOR TO BE A GOOD COVERT???...IS THE DEMOCRAT PARTY ACCEPTABLE WITH YOU MS.TAYLOR...THE MUSLIM FOR PROGRESSIVE VALUES???....IS THERE SUCH A THING AS A ...MUSLIM FOR PROGRESSIVE VALUES REPUBLICAN???OR WOULD THAT BE AN 'OXYMORON'???

Did you know Al Qaeda is Wahhabi?

Did you know the Madrassas that taught the Taliban were Wahhabi?

Did you know that all Al Qaeda terrorists were studying under Wahhabi Imams before they attacked?

Did you know that the Saudis fund the orphanages of the Middle East, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Palestine with one requirement; that the Wahhabi sects ideas are those taught to the children?

Did you know Wahhabi is NOT a even a valid religion it is a sect, and is actually anti Islamic in that they want to, and have actually made attempts to destroy the Muslim Prophet Mohammed's grave just the same as the Taliban destroyed the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan?

Did you know Saudi Arabia could never overthrow Saddam Hussein was because he kept the Wahhabi sect out of Iraq?

Why did Cheney support the Monarch of Saudi Arabia forcing the Wahhabi faith into Iraq after the invasion?

Why did Cheney prevent so many attempts to curb Wahhabism?

I guess if you read the articles in the Washington Post you now know Maj. Nidal M. Hasan's Imam was Anwar al-Aulaqi yet no where is that very pertinent fact that he is Wahhabi mentioned in the articles?

Try using goggle Anwar al-Aulaqi is clearly listed as being Wahhabi.

Do you now understand that America's enemy is Wahhabism?

The fact is that any religion is what its believers make out of it. So Christianity is the crusades and the inquisition and also Mother Teresa and St. Francis. I'm sure Islam is just the same. Not to mention all the other religions and atheism - it too is what its non-believers (myself included) make out of it.

Would Pamela Taylor care to comment on the words of Muhammad, as stated in the Hadith Bukhari (Volume 9, Book 88, No 6922):

"Whoever changed his deen (Islamic 'religion'), then kill him."

The mandate to kill anyone who is an apostate from Islam is upheld by ALL five schools of Islamic jurisprudence; this death sentence applies to all adult sane males, all adult sane females, and to children (apart from one sect of islam).

Why are we even deigning to show 'respect' and 'tolerance' for such inhumanity and intolerance? It is costing us innocent lives and, possibly, our country and our civilization.

Only weak and gullible people are religious.

You interpret it one way
He interprets it the other

You are both right and wrong. No one will change their mind.

And people still die.

Religion is a malevolent force in the 21st century.

The Koran states quite explicitly in the very passages you excerpt that it is not only the right but the duty of the good Muslim to kill non-Muslims unless they are allies. If I said it was my duty to kill people unless they share my belief system or are my personal friends or associates I would be deemed a homicidal maniac. Yet that is what Mohammed preaches, quite unambiguously. Nidal Hasan is a better Muslim than you are, "Pamela Taylor" (!), and more honest.

Pamela K. Taylor wrote: "These verses do not give Muslims license to go to war with all disbelievers...."

Pamela Taylor defines pagans or disbelievers as 'those who ascribe divinity to anyone other than Him' - Allah.

The notion that a great world religion sanctions warfare against "disbelievers" in Allah, YHWH, Jesus, what have you (regardless of whether they are decent or indecent; whether they are righteous or wicked) is problematic in and of itself. No where in the Bible is there a command to wage ware on "disbelievers" or unbelievers as unbelievers.

Quran clearly draws the difference between the pagans and the people of the book and all muslims have always understood the difference.
The history testifies to the cordial relationships between muslims, christians and jews living as one community for many centuries.
Should it have been taken literally to kill all non muslims by muslims when they were the dominant force in their times then there would be no Hindus and Bhuddists living in India,Jews living in Iran,Christians living in Egypt or Palestine at the turn of 18th century.
It is the cold war which lead to the manipulation by the West to use Quranic verses out of context to cultivate and indoctrinate Wahibism in Saudi Arabia and eventually the creation of Al-Qaeeda and Taliban.
The present day killings and bombings are all done by the west and their proxy Israel to maintain their economic and military dominance.
The christian faith soldiers and jewish Israeli soldiers do not value life of muslims when confronted and are very ruthless.
The indiscriminate killing of civilians and destruction of Iraq,Gaza and Afhganistan are still fresh in the minds of muslims,so when a disgruntled and misguided muslim goes 'POSTAL' the religion of Islam gets the blame.
All true tenants of all religions and their Holy books are source of comfort and guidance for mankind if used in a positive way otherwise the humans can become as brutal as wild animals.

Islam is a cult and political system that is out to rule the world-
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Radical Islam is killing all over the world
Algeria Afghanistan Darfur Yemen Thailand Somalia

This article is classic Taqiyya (lies, dissimulation by a Moslem to present a false, positive version of Islam).

First: There is only one Hadith, and it is regarded in Islam as a 'weak' hadith (meaning, it has no verifiable 'train of transmission' from the Companions of Muhammad and is therefore unlikely to be genuine or accurate) which speaks of Jihad as an 'inner struggle' (a 'greater jihad' with warfare being the 'lesser jihad.' On the other hand, Jihad is referred to as warfare in over 700 verses of aHadith (or Hadiths, to use the English plural) and, indeed, Hadith Muslim (an imam, like Bukhari, both being the two most respected compilations of Hadiths and being regarded, with the Koran, as part of Islam's core holy texts; Bukhari's being the largest and most respected) actually has an entire Book of Jihad and Expedition (Book 19) which has the usual Moslem taqiyya disclaimer (which is probably from where the authoress got her references).

As to offensive and defensive war in Islam, this is what Al-Azhar University has to say:-

"The verse (9:5) does not leave any room in the mind to conjecture about what is called defensive war. This verse asserts that holy war, which is demanded in Islamic law, is not a defensive war because it could legitimately be an offensive war. That is the apex and most honorable of all holy wars. Its goal is the exaltation of the word of God, the construction of Islamic society, and the establishment of God's kingdom on earth REGARDLESS OF THE MEANS. IT IS LEGAL TO CARRY ON AN OFFENSIVE HOLY WAR." (my caps, for emphasis)

I noticed one commenter assuming, incorrectly, that Jews and Christians are not lumped with the 'pagans' because they "do not ascribe divinity other than (to) him" ('him' being God). In Islamic theology, Jews and Christians are said to be those who DO ascribe divinity (Lordship) to others than "Allah" or have 'partners' with God (the Jews because they describe Jesus as 'Lord' in the New Testament and the Christians because, to Moslems, he is linked as a 'partner' with the deity). This is why it is permissible, and encouraged, to wage Jihad (holy war) on Jews and Christians.

Yes, Christians have done bad things in the name of their religion but the Gospel does not condone it the way the quran does.

Islam is a cult and political system that is out to rule the world-

9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

The only sure way for a muslim to enter paradise-

9.111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:

IF I WERE A CONVERT TO ISLAM...WHICH SECT?WHICH BRAND OF ISLAM?IS THE TRUE WORD AND PRACTICE OF ISLAM???WHICH ONES SHOULD I STAY AWAY FROM?WHICH ONES IN THE UNITED STATES PREACH"JIHAD"...WHICH IMAMS PREACH AGAINST THE"TRUE RELIGION OF PEACE" WITH THIS HATE AND CORRUPTION OF THE TRUE WORD...IF YOU ARE SO OPEN COULD--OR--WOULD YOU NAME NAMES???...IT'S FOR THE CHILDREN!!!

When so many believers can look to their Scripture to support violence and killing, it is clear to me that Islam needs to undergo a Reformation.

The New Testament was used by Christian clerics to justify and o promote draconian actions and ordinances. Theologians believed that they could take passages out of context to make the narrow point. What came out of the series of Reformations beginning in the16th Century was a more tolerant and open society.

But in truth, an open, tolerant society that frightens fundamentalists; for then they would, in fact, lose control of their society.

FEPKDA says: Didn't anyone notice the opening lines in section 9.3 of the Quran? "God disavows pagans (those who ascribe divinity to anyone other than him), and so does his Apostle." Since Christians and Jews ascribe divinity to God, they can never be considered "pagans." This explains Mohammed's life-long respect for those faiths.

This life-long respect must be why Mo also said:

[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

Here's more life-long love for Jews expressed by Mo:

“The Last Hour will not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: `Muslim, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him’; but the tree Gharkad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.” (Sahih Muslim, Book 40, Number 6985).

Ms. Taylor. If you believe that all of the Quran with all of the Hadiths and all of the Suras are the literal word of God and that all Muslims must believe in them and obey them without question or interpretation...then Major Hasan was indeed following Islam and honestly reflected its teachings in the Quran. Pretending that those verses don't exist when speaking to a Western audience is the height of hypocracy. You either believe in ALL of the Quran's teachings or you must actively fight all Muslims who choose to act upon the most violent and intolerant of Mohammed's teachings....which very well may make you an apostate in the eyes of your fellow Muslims....and therefore subject to the death penalty by Sharia law.

Seems that there are tens or hundreds of millions of Muslims who believe the same "distortions."

It's very obvious that outside this country a large number of so-called Muslims harbor similar distortions of Islam.

Why do so many misinterpret the Qur'an?

And how does the fact that their interpretation is wrong make them any less dangerous?

Didn't anyone notice the opening lines in section 9.3 of the Quran? "God disavows pagans (those who ascribe divinity to anyone other than him), and so does his Apostle." Since Christians and Jews ascribe divinity to God, they can never be considered "pagans." This explains Mohammed's life-long respect for those faiths. He was so overawed by this truth, that he spent his life preaching belief in one divinity to the many Arab tribes he encountered. The Islamists today who call non-Muslims "unbelievers" have completely misread the Quran.

Distortion of Islam...sorry ain't buying that for a second.

Personally, I am very uncomfortable with the U.S. Army giving Muslims guns, let alone access to advanced weaponry or classified information. My rational reason for feeling that way is that there is no way for any of the military services to evaluate the barometer of a soldier's Muslim beliefs, from the low pressure "peace to all" approach to the high pressure jihadist view exhibited by Major Hasan.

The same is true of other religions. If a gay rights organization was to consider hiring me, an Episcopalian, how could they truly know whether I am a tolerant loving liberal Episcopalian or a schismatic gay-bashing Anglican? I could certainly lie about my beliefs if I wanted the job.

During World War II, my Dad's job was to evaluate the pro-Germany leanings of German immigrants and their children who would work in the defense industry. Back in 1943, no one said it was racist for the American government to have people like my father determining whether German immigrants and first generation German Americans were loyal enough to be trusted to work on manufacturing of critical weapons to defend this country.

For those who are struggling to figure out how the U.S. military should be dealing with Muslim soldiers and Muslim employees of defense contractors now, it is only fair and reasonable to look at what the U.S. did in World War II to evaluate the risks German-Americans presented to the military and to the defense industry. For those who don't remember, love of fellow Germans and belief that Germans are a superior race was a cultural ethic taught by parents to children and grandchildren with near religious zeal.

Realistically, today the military, the Congress and the press need to ask the question whether any German-American soldier shot 50 or so of his fellow soldiers, killing 13 of them. If the answer is "No" then what America's military and defense industry did in the World War II era was the right approach.

As engraved in stone on Pennsylvania Avenue "The Past is Prelude".

Halozcel1,

You are confused man in on top of being a rabid hatemonger! I hope you wont runaway this time like you always do. Gotta say I admire your sense of humour! So you are a Teacher on Islam now?

"Jihad theologically means Holy War "

Who are you quoting here? Im sure you know that your own racists views on Islam have pretty much gutter value. So if you got a cedible source for this and your other gibberish, lets hear it~!

The Muslim problem is social stigma promoted by fundamentalists - if you aren't hard core you are "less than". ...Just like fundamentalist evangelical christiansty operates in the Southern US, and Jewish fundamentalism operates in the US and Israel, and Hindu fundamentalists in India. Fundamentalists around the globe are the problem wherever they exist.

When Muslims can engage in an honest discussion of Quranic text and its application historically, and in contemporary times, there can be movement into the 21st century for the stone-age minded living in Waziristan, and Yemen. Or preaching Wahabism in Saudi Arabia, and preaching death in Islamic Jihaad and Hamas.

The discussion should be along the lines of:

"Muslims used to murder and pillage villages to convert, and killed all who refused - just like the Christians did during the crusades. But now Muslims know that was horribly wrong. It is murderous, and against God's will for Muslims to kill those they don't agree with as it was for the Christians to kill their non-believers. There is no justification for religious violence. EVER. Not Muslim on Muslim, nor Muslim on Christian, nor Jewish on Muslim, nor Hindu on Muslim, nor Christian on anyone else for their religious views.

The US was attacked on 9/11 by murderers who claim Islam because Israel oppresses the Palestinians in a 60 yr ongoing occupation, and we're a major political supporter and financial resource of Israel's government.

Wahabbists and Islamists have decided it is good to kill in response, instead of negotiating peace. The muslim world has largely remained silent on this question, while modern Islamic theologans in the US and Europe have rejected the false loogic as ungodly... but with little actual effect on the minds of the murderous... Because fundamentalist Wahabbists around the globe exported and funded by Saudi Arabia keep saying it is ok to murder in the name of Allah.

When the global muslim commuity is willing to discuss the bloody history of conversion jihaads of Islam for what they were - crimes against humanity - as we openly call the Christian crusdades today, and for the murderous actions of Hamas against Muslims in Fatah, and Sunni violence and repression on and of the Shia, then Islam will have a real opportunity to move forward in peace and harmony.

Ms. Taylor makes a good argument - it just isn't anywhere near blunt, direct, unequivocal, or loud enough to change a fundamentalist's mind... Let alone a Wahabbist's.

First word is Read.
Read revelation to Unlettered Man.

The Truth Seeker;
-Alexandra Great was a muslim(according to ancient greek belief,He himself was a God)
-Trinity means Father,Son,Mary.
-Kaaba was built by Abraham(who had lived 2000 years ago from first building)
-Muslim Jesus was ordered to prayer/salah.
-Sperm comes from ribs.
-Azar was Abraham's dad(Azar was his servent)
Such as many,many others.

Jihad;

Many,many times I wrote and I am writing again(because there are new students).

Jihad means Struggle.
Struggle means Kampf in German.
My struggle means Meine Kampf.

Jihad theologically means Holy War and in House of War countries(non-muslim lands) Truth Seekers/Real Believer Muslim are obligated to participate Holy War.

Let's see, some Catholic priests who are not being "good" or "faithful to the Gospel" or to their Catholic teachings molest children. Other clergy and administrators who overlooked it and did not act to prevent it are held responsible and the Church's dioceses pay billions of dollars in damages. It is time that Islam and the various mosques and schools that teach, harbor, or--at least--passively over radical, violent clerics and teachers start paying up to victims. Just like the Church, Islam must be held responsible for the actions of its "bad" clergy who corrupt minds like Hasan's and cause violence and suffering to others.

My comments are pointed to comments made by HOFGM.
"Kindly advise was the conversion to Islam in Central Asian countries,China,Fareast such as Indonesia, Malaysia,Brunie to name the few was done by force or through the teachings of Quran".

NOGFM,

The fact that you call Al-Azhar University defacto Vatican for 85% Islam tells all about your knowledge on Islam~!

Somebody is misquoting this, either you, Ms. Taylor, or a whole lot of places on the web:

"Muslim soldiers should not serve in any capacity that renders them at risk of hurting/killing unbelievers unjustly"

In many places on the web, it reads..."/killing believers unjustly"

Which is it? It makes a big difference.

It is tiresome to read these disengenuous apologetics.

Mohammed and his generals waged atrocious wars of offensive Jihad during their lifetimes, which explains why the Islamic empire expanded so rapidly. Offensive Jihad is intrinsic to Islam, though certain Muslims may be unaware or dismissive of (or intentionally lie about) this religous tenet.

In fact, Al Azhar University, the seat of Sunni orthodoxy (which functions as a de facto Vatican for 85% of Muslims worldwide), describes in “Reliance of the Traveller,” its widely distributed manual of Islamic Law, circa 1991, that:
“ Jihad means to war against non-Muslims, and, is etymologically derived from the word, mujahada, signifying warfare to establish the religion [of Islam]…The scriptural basis for jihad is such Koranic verses as ‘Fighting is prescribed for you’ (Koran 2:216); ‘Slay them wherever you find them’ (Koran 4:89); ‘Fight the idolators utterly’ (Koran 9:36); and such hadiths as the one related by (Sahih) Bukhari and (Sahih) Muslim said: ‘I have been commanded to fight people until they testify that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and perform the prayer, and pay zakat. If they say it, they have saved their blood and possessions from me, except for the rights of Islam over them. And the final reckoning is with Allah’; and the hadith by (Sahih) Muslim, ‘To go forth in the morning or evening to fight in the path of Allah is better than the whole world and everything in it.’ ”

For heavens' sake, who are we to believe... Ms. Taylor, or the most authoritative Muslims on the planet?

If the verses "...only address those pagans who had broken their treaties with the Muslim community in Madinah.", why have they been carried forward in the book until today, without at least some mention of their historical nature being included?

And what about this part, "..observe, then, your covenant with them until the end of the term agreed with them." What happens after the term of agreement ends? or have pagans made a perpetual agreement, and has it remained unabrogated?

Ms. Taylor has failed to prove her case. If we wish to dig into the weeds of verses and context, we find that Ms Taylor has limited the discussion of pagans who have broken a covenant to those "who had broken their treaties with the Muslim community in Madinah." Yet there is no discussion in the verses she quotes of anything having to do with Medina. This is made up out of whole cloth. How do we know? Look at the verses themselves, which tell us EXACTLY which people the author is referring to.

Verse 9:3 tells us who the pagans are:
"God disavows the pagans (those who ascribe divinity to anyone other than Him), and so does His Apostle."

I disavow Allah and his prophet. I am a pagan. If Muslims, according to this, make a "covenant" with me and my ilk, then I am except if I fulfill my obligations to them. But if I don't, then I can be slain after the sacred months are over.

This is quite clear. In acting as an apologists for the violence of Islam, and attempting to limit the meaning to the context of the book, she does what fundamentalist Christians do, namely, resort to the tired excuse of "read the context". But Jihadists know that the teachings of the Quran and the Hadith are not limited to the context of the book...they are supposedly TRUTHS FOR ALL AGES.

Thus, when it says, "And so, when the sacred months are over, slay the pagans wherever you may come upon them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every conceivable place! ", the Quran REALLY means to have a Muslim do just that.

Ms. Taylor is herself distorting the clear meaning of the Quran. Good and peaceful Muslims around the world are good and peaceful despite the Quran and not because of it.

The 9.5 verses of Quran are widely used by muslims and non-muslims to indoctrinate the muslims for political gains and more recently by CIA starting with Soviet Union occupation of Afghanistan in 1979 by creating Taliban and Al-Qaida.
Now,the enemies of Islam within and outside have found just this verse as a potent tool to create misconceptions and hatred against muslims in general and Islam in particular in the eyes and minds of common man as well as to weaken the muslims as a nation.
The regular incidents of killings in USA, UK, India, Pakistan,Kashmir,Iraq, Soamlia, Sudan and many more are all blamed on the ideological self serving verses of Quran.
Osamas and zealots like Major Nadal have done more harm to Islam by their misguided and cruel actions in modern times while transgressing the limits which are layed out by God Almighty throughout Quran.
The first verse of Quran starts with "The Holy book without any doubt is guidance to truth seekers" and provides a complete way of life in every aspect for all humanbeing, State and non-State Organisations.
But if you are bent upon hurting the mankind with political or twisted mind then Geeta,Torah,Bible and Quran are means and startegic tools for the zealots at the individual,organisational and STATE level to self servingly justify their BRUTAL actions and causing human sufferings on daily basis.

......correction by "your" I dont mean Pamela Taylor but West and Western Journalists in general.

Thank You Pamela K. Taylor,

Although, your Progressive Muslim Union, with their attempt to rebrand Islam in an americanised form by introducing female Imams badly failed to impress any muslims. I can see you are now takingup more mainstream muslim issues, which can only be good!

As a student of history and Islamic hisory, I can tell you that the word Jihad is relatively new. Muslims never called their wars of conquests Jihad~! Jihad in no way means holy war! Jihad means basically to struggle. The Arabic word for Holy War is 'Harb-ul-Muqaddasa' nowhere does the Quran mentions this word. If you go back to the Algerian war of Independence, Palestinians intifada, Arab-Israeli wars of '48,'67 and '71 the Arabs never called them Jihad! We in Pakistan fought many wars with India, none of them was called a Jihad! They weren't religous wars!

The word Jihad was really made fashionable by the CIA. In the 1980's when Soviets tried to expand their empire even further and took over Afghanistan in order to reach the warm Arabian Sea via Pakistan, CIA organized the first global Jihad! Remember that movie Rambo? Arab youths from Morroco to Oman (and even Malaysia/Indonesia) were plucked by CIA recruiters brought to Pakistan, shown propaganda movies of Soviet atrocities in Afghanistan, told that as a muslim it was their duty to liberate any muslim country that is attacked. And bingo! You got one of the two Superpower~! Brought to its knees, by a bunch of fanatic soldiers of faith and brave Afghans. The Russians didnt know what hit them. Wave after wave of these young arabs, some of them like Osama scions of Arab elite joined this global Jihad and eventually the Soviets had to leave. The CIA patted themselves on the back and left without giving a second thought to the Frankenstiens they created.

So now we get muslims anywhere fighting against tyranny and injustice getting called Jihadis as if its one size fits all cap. The Kashmiris, Chechens, Uyghurs, Palestinians, Kososvars. How are these struggles different from say those of East Timorese whom the whole world convereged to get liberated? So stop making Jihad a stick to beat muslims with and stop your own holy war against Islam~!

Ms. Taylor,

These excuses are becoming tiresome. Everytime there is another horrific incident we are constantly reminded that Islam is a religion of peace. Who are you kidding?

How many people have to be killed before these excuses ring hollow? They rang hollow for me a long time ago and I suspect more people are beginning to acknowledge the same.

he following article called Dimensions of Fort Hood Shootings by a prominent muslim author may shed light more on how a promoinent muslim sees it. It was posted on the internet by A Pakistan News, see: http://www.apakistannews.com/dimensions-of-fort-hood-shootings-146138

Ms Taylor pontificates thus:
“That his(Hasan)presentation (and possibly his understanding) of the Qur'an was calculated and distorted.”

This educated Palestinian Arab whose ancestors were Muslims and Arabs from the time of Mohammad does not understand the Quran? Yet Ms. Taylor, who probably never heard of Islam until she met her Muslim husband, and who most probably could not differentiate between Arab and Sanskrit scripts knows and understands Islam better? This is undoubtedly worthy of being added to the other many Muslim myths.

I appreciate the citation of the full verses from the Quran and the explanation Ms Taylor gave. Akafir's question is the one most of us probably want to see answered from Islam. In fairness, one should also ask: why do proponents of any religion choose to see God only through the lens of selective fundamentalism that blocks out any other understanding? After the reformation, the Church set out to kill Protestants who deviated from the Church's teaching, as well as non-believers and Jews. I pray that Islam as a whole matures and that space is created for those within its faith who see God in another way.

Jihad, both internal and external, has more to do with a devout Muslim's obligatory response to INJUSTICE, particularly when directed against the Muslim community, rather than encouraging "offensive,aggressive warfare" as is suggested in this article.

The real question is why do so many muslims around the world accept the version that Hasan did and reject yours. Muslims are killing other muslims by the thousands around the world because of the same jihad that Nidal Hasan. The Kaafirs of the world who you seem to be addressing need to know that they are in the middle of a religious war within Islam and they as usual considering Islam's history, are likely to be killed as Kaafirs lives have very little value in the eyes of the true beleivers.

Thank you Ms Taylor. This is the first article I've seen that actually looks at the substance of Hasan's claims, rather than at face value