Repeal of "don't ask, don't tell" long overdue

Ill try to post tommorow my response with regards to the Taliban and the validity of sacred texts etc. As of now seems like this blogs open. Hopefully I can send you my response before it closes down. Till then......Take Care~!

Hello Justin,

Thank you for your detailed response. Im sorry I couldn’t get back to you earlier because of some issues and also because I needed to take some time and respond.

I think you were reading too much into Pamela Taylor the revolutionary part. I had specifically put it into inverted comma’s to make a point. You can have your own views on her but I guess you would know better than me that in your country there are think tanks and organizations like AEI and PNAC etc. funded by the US government who have these pet projects like overthrowing the Iranian regime and Saddam Hussein through so called green or velvet or whatever revolutions. They gave you the sweet talking chalabi who charmed the American congress and led them to believe that Iraqis are dieing for the Americans to liberate them from Iraq. Treachery and deceit is the currency of these ‘Reformers’. I see Pamela Taylor as part of the same plan. She was associated with muslimwakeup.com and their charter says that for Islam to become acceptable Quran has to be done away with or at least the parts that deals with Jihad! They also want recognition for gays and lesbians and basically for muslims to turn into secularists. Ofcourse all this seems farfetched and bound to fail like everything else the neocons set out to do. But it’s a fact that she would never condemn the US attack on Iraq or the innocent deaths in Iraq. So I wasn’t surprised that she came out in support of gays and lesbians. There is nothing grand or revolutionary about. Its her job and she gets paid to do it.

But coming to our real talking point, homosexuality, I am frankly surprised that your Buddhist Teachers/Monks didn’t care much about people being Homosexual. One usually associates homosexuality with Christian Priests. I have also heard supporters of homosexuality citing such behaviors amongst animals as proof that God is somehow OK with Homosexuality. SO are we supposed to emulate animals now? They also indulge in incest, should that be OK too? With animals everything goes. They aren’t blessed with senses which we humans have. SO really citing behaviour pattern’s of some animals, doesn’t prove to me that its part of God’s plan.

I believe you have basically tried to complicate an uncomplicated situation here. Having feelings of affection about your same sex friends or caring about them is a very normal thing. What is unacceptable is that you form sexual relations with your friends. I frankly find it disgusting and sick. I think it has a lot to do with the society as well. When I was growing up I had hardly ever heard of these people in Pakistan but now as the society has opened up, specially during the decade long Musharraf era, I keep hearing more and more about these people here.

Hello Yasser,

We may well not have much more time to dialogue on this thread, seeing that a new topic has come up. If this thread closes and you would like to continue I will check into this thread below, if it is fine for you.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/arun_gandhi/2010/02/violence_in_language.html

Peace on you.

test~!

I think it is worth commenting a bit further on the topic of fundamentalism vs. reformism. It is clear the motivation that traditionalists have in maintaining the form and authority of a orthodox system. There is much value in maintaining societal stability through fundamentalist authority, for instance, religious authority, cultural tenets that support a structured and safe, law abiding society

At the same time, when we adhere for too long with any static belief system by defending it's orthodoxy against the inevitable effect and need of change we force stagnation and death, inevitably. Of course the case is that change is inevitable, the one thing that we know will occur.

It brings up the question of what is fundamentalism, of course. What was the standard practice and belief of early Christianity has changed over the centuries, but there has been constant battles over what is considered orthodox and 'true', and that continues to this day. The same is clearly true of Islam and the schisms that have occurred over the centuries in greater Islam. And along the way redefinitions and reinterpretations of what is considered orthodox teachings.

I am sure that justifications for suicide bombers would never have been entertained in the past, and still is not by moderate believers. Just as I believe that the lot of women and children, leastwise believing ones, were improved in Muhammads' time from what was common before. However, has that trend continued, or have the patriarchal powers that be used Quranic verse to keep women in owned positions, and even allowed to slip the provisions that Muhammad commanded? Surely the manifestation of the Taliban and their interpretation of Sharia have been a 'fundamentalist' influence, seeking to shove women back into the pit of hell, and deeper into subservience than they have been forced to live in inside other more modernized Islamic societies.

So though this does not directly address the issue of homosexuality, that topic is deeply affected by a fundamental vs. progressive read of the Quran as well as general mindset.

At some point we MUST move beyond Scriptural Text as our societies advance and evolve from stone age to bronze to the nano world of today.

I go back to my argument on sacred text. It may well be valid for the era that it was conceived in and birthed from, but different times, and minds, require different answers. And as these are human written, even if one believes they are dictated from God, and as human minds, hearts and psyches evolve and change, so the paradigms that we live by must change.

In my belief. And it does seem to follow logically and rationally, as well as spiritually. Nothing is static for long.

salaam, yasser.

I think it is worth commenting a bit further on the topic of fundamentalism vs. reformism. It is clear the motivation that traditionalists have in maintaining the form and authority of a orthodox system. There is much value in maintaining societal stability through fundamentalist authority, for instance, religious authority, cultural tenets that support a structured and safe, law abiding society

Hello Yasser,

I am sorry that I have not been able to come back to this more in depth, and do not have much time this morning to do so.

"Planted woman" is a pretty big term, whatever that may mean, though reformist she doubtless is. Reformism is the work of visionaries, though, don't you think? Fundamentalism is the work of conventionalists, seeking to maintain the status quo and resist natural advances and evolution of an organism or cultural/religious institution. All the great advances in human and societal growth came from visionaries and reformists. Revolutionaries, yes? Not that Ms. Taylor is a great entity in that way, but she certainly walks on that side of the fence, pressing limitations and conventions to stretch past conventional norms. I appreciate that stance, personally, more than a fundamental or conventional stasis.

I can not answer your question of what Buddhism teaches around homosexuality via sacred text, and do not care particularly what may be written. I do know that I have had Buddhist teachers that saw homosexuality as just one other choice that can be made in life, no more or less. A life path for however long the person sought that experience. In the end it mattered not at all one way or the other, it could be another attachment and "thing" to get caught up in, or the use to surrender to the true Self.

I have had teachers that had homosexuals as part of their foundation organizers and managers, right hand people to them, as well as homosexuals that were students. They were always treated with the same degree of attention and love and compassion as any heterosexual.

As I said, homosexuality is and has been a natural occurrence in humans as well as the other species. And sexuality itself is foundational in all species, and that is not limited solely to physical sexual experientiality, nor to physical sexuality that produces offspring. And to reiterate in another way, sexuality is not fundamentally a physical activity, per se, but an energetic one that can and does manifest itself physically in lovemaking. Yet it is creative and creation energy. We all use that pool of energy as a tool for manifestation on the physical plane, as well as the intellectual and spiritual.

All humans interact with a grounding in the sexual/creative root. There is nothing odd or abnormal or contra benevolent about it. Humans, however, have a huge number of rules, laws, expectations, assumptions, and rigid societal regulations for what to do with it, and what not to. It is one of the most morally constrained form of energy that humans have to use, as we can see in all interpersonal relations.

Unfortunate in some ways, for it is an altogether normal and necessary aspect of life. We would be far better off if we took so much of our judgment on sexuality out of the closet, (forgive the metaphor!), out of the dark that we wrap it up in, and into the light of day.

salaam, Yasser.

Hello Justin~!

Lets hope this blog doesn't close down by then and yeah apparently legitimizing homosexuality is the new task given to this planted 'Reformist' woman.

Hoping to hear from you soon~!

Yasser

Hello Yasser,

I hope to post later on, but I have been quite preoccupied the last couple of days.

I hear homosexuality is the topic. :-)

test~

Hello Justin,

It’s nice to see that we can find some common ground to work upon. Comparing religions isn’t something I enjoy doing. I respect your views and will continue to hold on to mine as long as there isn’t solid proof to do otherwise. I will however admit that Buddhism is to me one of the religions with which it’s hard to find a fault. In a funny way maybe that’s the only fault with it. It sounds too good to be true~!

Ill be looking forward to your views on homosexuals. What did Buddha have to say about it. Is it an acceptable act under the laws of Buddhism?

Salam alaikum

Yasser~!

Hello Yasser, and thank you for the reply.

I find much to agree with in the first part of your post, particularly around the concept of different prophets throughout the world and the signs of God throughout the world.

"So in a sense all the decent things we humans are supposed to be are to be found universally throughout the whole world. I see this as a part of God’s plan. The message of goodness is there for all of us to see and almost everyone can differentiate right from wrong. So God can judge us for our good deeds and bad deeds and reward and punish us accordingly."

I am not a believer in the concept of God the Judge, or the "Last Judgment", as is forwarded by the Abrahamic religions, and in particular the latter two. I do believe that the form of the universe was set up to 'reward and punish' in a sense, but not as commonly held via the monotheistic religions. I align most comfortably with the Buddhist view on this. Cause and effect, a fundamental law of universal relations, is repeated in different words with 'karma and dharma' or 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you'. This last phrase actually explains very nicely how I think this Law works. Expanded, this says what we choose to do and what actions we take come back in kind. Do good, good comes. Do not good, no good comes.

Criticisms of this philosophy abound, not least of which is that there is no clear absolute even beginning of all lives, that some are born into wealth and some are destitute throughout life. Further some attempt good, (and succeed in this endevour!), but are treated poorly. One famous example would be Jesus himself. This shows no proof of equality in the equation, granted in that lifetime.

I am unconcerned. I believe the soul is far, far deeper and more complicated, wise and experienced than most believe it to be.

My beliefs are different than those that you expressed in the latter parts of your posts, essentially for related reasons that I have already expressed. I will be happy to explain in my next post, which will be later in this evening or 'on the morrow.

Till then, salaam yasser.

continued.....

Regarding Gays and Lesbians, its no surprise that their acts are looked upon with disgust and disapproval by an overwhelming majority of humanity. Sex is supposed to be a sacred act between a man and a woman which also results in conceiving another human being. By exchanging the natural partners those humans who become a prisoner of their lust, do indeed commit a sin. And God has spoken with no ambiguity on this subject be it in Tanakh, Bible or Quran. Plus we also have the example of people of Sodom who became notorious for their homosexual acts and were therefore severely punished for their sins. Just because homosexuals have a wider say in the media thanks to openly homosexual Hollywood actors and singers, doesn’t mean the word of God has lost its significance. Its as valid as ever. Just like killing your fellow human being was wrong 1900 years ago or adultery, rape, being unjust etc were also wrong so is homosexuality. Just because its been glamorized with the obvious attempts to make it a normal acceptable action doesn’t mean we need to produce a new Bible Lite edition of the Holy books rather the society needs to mend its ways and refrain from acts that annoys God.

I can undertsand you will find it hard to agree with a lot of the things I have to say. But I will still look forward to your response. Lets see if we can cut down to the things which we really disagree at.

Salam Alaikum~!

Yasser~!

Hello Justin~!

Once again my apologies for the late reply! You have spoken with your usual command on this subject. You have a gift for speaking your mind with the economy of words, which is something I envy. My views on the concept of God and his message are slightly less complicated. I believe that God exists for which I see signs all around me. Its God’s will that he wont provide us the definite proof of his existence, rather he would want us to look around us and exercise our minds and figure out for ourselves how come everything in the universe exists with perfect harmony. God did send Prophets and Holy men through the length and breath of this world to preach a message of goodness and setup rules to live by. So in a sense all the decent things we humans are supposed to be are to be found universally throughout the whole world. I see this as a part of God’s plan. The message of goodness is there for all of us to see and almost everyone can differentiate right from wrong. So God can judge us for our good deeds and bad deeds and reward and punish us accordingly. When I was a kid my Islamic Studies teacher told me that life is a kind of exam where you have already been told all the answers, its your job to remember them and tick in the right boxes. So when you say that the God you believe in is like a parent who would never punish his child, I can only agree partly with you. God is like a parent but what would a parent do if his child beats up his other child, or seize his brother possessions unjustly or even worse kills his brother. If God then treats the Hitlers and Pharaohs and Pol Pots of this world with equal mercy that he would treat Jesus, Mohammad and Mother Teresa then whats the catch in doing good deeds in this world. Why shouldn’t we do things as we please? Why shouldn’t might be just right?

Regarding the sacred texts and holy books, I believe God chose to speak to us through them so that once the Prophets and Holy men would pass away there would still be a guidebook which we can refer to and know how God wills us to live our lives. I agree that Torah and Bible do not retain their original shape any longer. I think I have said it before that I believe Islam to be an evolution amongst the other Abrahamic religions and Quran amongst other books of heaven. Islam consolidates the message other Prophets brought earlier and covers up the bases which the previous religions left behind similarly with the Quran God has ensured that the true word will never be adulterated at any cost. It was written in the Quran 1400 years ago and it’s still as much true.

Hello Justin~!

Sorry for taking so long! I have a lot of stuff happening to me last couple of days. Will definitely sit down and send my response by tonight or tommorow. Hope this blog is open till then~!

Yasser~!

Hello Yasseryousufi,

As I saw that you sent out a test message I will assume that I may hear from you in the next day or so. I will check back in in hopes of a response. Till then...

Salaam, Yasser.

Test~!

Hello Yasseryousufi,

It is my belief that Sacred Texts are by and large human things, not Divine. They are written by human hand, even if one attributes the source of the words to God. A human 'heard' the voice however he did, a human made sense, in his own mind, of that voice, it's inflection, it's meaning, gave it gravitas, and then the human wrote it down on paper, from his mind and into his native language. There is such fertile ground anywhere along that process for subjective interpretation that it is beyond possible, in my mind, for there to be any such thing as perfect translation.

Indeed for me there is no way for the written word to depict divine revelation succinctly at all.

Coupled with cultural and political dynamics of the time, and the state of human civilization at the time, and specific needs of those human minds and hearts to evolve toward God, as well as a billion other issues and I cannot find reason to believe as literal any spiritual text, much less to give weight to their continued 'ultimate' relevance centuries later.

The essential message of Jesus, for instance, may be relevant in any century, and it may not. But the things that he said to those that came to listen to him 2000 years ago were for THEM, THEN. The essential message may translate to any human in the now, but we must interface with an utterly different world today. And NT Gospels were written for humans 1900 years ago, by human minds that were conditioned by the state of affairs of the time.

Homosexuality has always been around, and not just in the human species. It will always be around, as it is a natural extension of interpersonal relations. It is hard if not impossible to find a heterosexual, male of female, that is completely monogamous with one other, as is the standard social expectation, (at least for women it is expected!). Men in particular are accused of lusting after, if only in their minds, other women than their wives. Women DO look and notice other men, and women, as well. And men, heterosexual or homosexual or bi, notice other men as well.

The stigma around homosexuality is conditioned. Scriptural condemnations of homosexuality are to be expected as many humans, writers included, have fears and phobias. God does not. To God, all is Love, at cause, as that is what God is. Causal and Love.

That is my small opinion, at least. If God and Heaven are founded of the same as this world, we are in for a World of Pain into Eternity. Heaven is depicted as a place of perfect love and light, if one believes the stories. That would then not be a dualistic universe, but a singular one, unified and complete. As God is defined. Wholeness.

No judgment there.

Salaam.

Hello Halozcel,

"Lets not mix Mythology/Legend and Substantial Commands in The Law and Quran.
Offensive sections in The Law(Old Testament) are Mythology,not Concrete Orders,but,Quran says Substantial Commands."

I can understand how anyone that has an investment in a belief system finds ways to justify that belief system as correct over other choices. I see your comments here as an example of that tendency, however I do not find your categorization of the OT/Torah as "Mythology/Legend" and Qur'an as "Substantial Commands" as accurate or justified. There is no doubt that these documents are stylistically quite different. This is particularly clear with the Qur'an, claimed as a direct scribing of testament from Gabriel to Muhammad and written more or less in that form. But the OT, written more in the form of storytelling, still claims the stories told are literal and valid, even if a thinking mind may question that claim.

You can bet that most Christians take it as a crystalline representation of God and God's Mind, and see it as commandment. This becomes utterly clear with the story of Moses and the specifics of the Ten Commandments, but that belief in the veracity of the demands and commands of God thread throughout the OT, in the minds of believing Christians and observant Jews.

"Although Christianity(Catholicism,Orthodoxy) has sides which may/can be critisized,it shouldnt be put in the same basket with Cult of Violence/Hate.
Builders and Destroyers havent to be counted in the same group."

May I assume that, since you point at original establishment Christianity but did not refer to reform Christians that you are preferential to Protestantism and Evangelism. Do just a taste of research into the history of reform Christianity and you will easily be able to put them into the esteemed company of "Cult of Violence/Hate" and "Destroyers".

It was not Catholics that spread across the New World eradicating the pest of the indigenous peoples. President Jackson was not a Catholic as he took up the banner of Manifest Destiny and led the charge against the Indian. Protestants, handed power, are quite capable of Destruction and Hate, thank you very much, while ranting on the (substantial) evils of Catholicism.

To this day. Neo-con Evangelists led the charge forward into the Middle East.

Gotta spread the Good News, by whatever means necessary.

Hello Yeal,

What does this mean, this post of yours? Nothing of any effective religious or social change to date, for what I see.

If some conservative Jews in the US, "have rewritten the Torah to reflect the myths therein basically making it a document of peace", has that changed the Torah as it is viewed and known by any other Jews worldwide? Have they changed their Torah's? Who are they, how many are they, and what effect has this on Judaism?

As for the Jeffersonian Bible, that is fabulous, but it is clear the effect of his alterations of the Bible in the present day. Virtually to absolutely none. The Bible that is used by the billion other Christians is essentially the same, but for translation changes, as it has been for the centuries prior to Jefferson. Christians use the same Bible with no change since the fall of the Roman Empire.

They still have loads of ways to interpret the thing, but there has been no editing out of the 'offensive' parts of the Word of God.

Christiandom continues to use the 'complete' text.

Do correct me if I am wrong.

Justillthennow

Conservative Jews in the USA have rewritten the Torah to reflect the myths therein basically making it a document of peace.
Thomas Jefferson did an analogous rewrite of the NT.

" Thomas Jefferson omitted it (Revelation) along with most of the Biblical canon, from the Jefferson Bible, and wrote that at one time, he considered it (Revelation) as "merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams."

^ Bergh: Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Vol. 16
and Wikipedia

Lets not mix Mythology/Legend and Substantial Commands in The Law and Quran.
Offensive sections in The Law(Old Testament) are Mythology,not Concrete Orders,but,Quran says Substantial Commands.
Sample,Quran 8.12 is not a mythology,but,Absolute Command to muslims.

Some posters(especially Janet and Justin) always try to put everything in the same basket.This is not Logical and Reasonable.
Although Christianity(Catholicism,Orthodoxy) has sides which may/can be critisized,it shouldnt be put in the same basket with Cult of Violence/Hate.
Builders and Destroyers havent to be counted in the same group.

Hello Yasseryousufi,

I believe that I spoke to my essential beliefs regarding bias toward homosexuals in the military in my last post. I do not believe in the condemnation of any peoples or individuals for any reason that does not cause harm to others. For the most part I believe that applies to homosexual relationships as easily as it does to heterosexual relationships.

Okay, an extreme and naked example, painfully not one that is uncommon.

So sorry, gotta go. Later, I hope.

salaam

Hello Yeal,

You keep repeating on all the different threads that the Quran ought be edited, with the 'offensive' sections 'repealed' and deleted.

Won't happen, as everyone knows. It is as likely that the Old Testament or Tanakh have it's offensive sections, (even whole chapters!), removed for the same reasons that you note. Or that the New Testament get abridged or have the introduction of the Dead Sea Scrolls or the Gospel of Mary included into the accepted Biblical canon.

Won't happen. Far too bound in history and culture. Culture will change before these sacred texts are edited. Human perception and belief will change prior to that occurring. Which is what is and has been happening for centuries, the last decades of which show an unmistakable cultural and sociological shift.

That shift is going on in Islam on an accelerated rate now, as it has been going on in Christian and Jewish societies for some while.

All are and have been guilty of bias and prejudice based on cleaving to scriptural directive. None have changed their historical texts to adjust to human sociological evolution.

That's just one thing that just *pisses me off* about *all* you 'children of Abraham.' You all think you're so bloody righteous, and you want to blame someone else for the fact you *just can't seem to stop killing each other.*

How many scapegoats does it *take?*

Any of you. All of you.

Who *gives* a flying fig what you say?

Stop.

Then come give me a hard time if you still need to.

OK, Christians and Muslims, who think 'God' commands killing or harming LBGT people and denying we exist.

You've been bashing and killing a long, long time.

Has it worked, yet?

Looking around, I'm gonna have to observe, 'no.'

So. How bout you both cut it out and get back to us when you've sorted your deal out?

I don't see what's so hard, here.

But the lot of you monotheists have been blowing the crap out of yourselves and each other and everyone else in sight for centuries, claiming you're ultimate peace and love...

You haven't exactly impressed me, never mind made a case how there's something righteous about perpetrating injustice upon people who cuddle in ways you don't approve of.

Since when did you approve of *anything?*

Work it out among yourselves. People are trying to live, here.

One wonders which Tanakh "Atheist" Jews would read. Or would they prefer digging their heads in sand, misinterpreting the word of God in the belief that all their sins have been forgiven already.

Jude 1:7 (King James Version)

" Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

And from:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibh.htm

"In the King James Version, Leviticus 18:22 is translated: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

Although the verse appears to most readers to apply only to sexual behavior between two males, at least two Bible translations appear to mistranslate the verse in order to widen its scope to include lesbian sexual activity:

Living Bible: "Homosexuality is absolutely forbidden, for it is an enormous sin"

New Living Translation: "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.
But then we have this:

from Wikipedia:

Israel Defense Forces policies allow gay men and lesbians to serve openly and without discrimination or harassment due to actual or perceived sexual orientation, including special units.[51] Consul David Saranga at the Israeli Consulate in New York City, stated, "It's a non-issue. You can be a very good officer, a creative one, a brave one, and be gay at the same time."

Does this mean the followers of Judaism no longer obey god and his/her Torah/OT???

The Tanakh has nothing to say about homosexuality. It takes issue with the rape of one man by another.

See any Oxford Study Bible on this.

Why doesn't Pamela demand the repeal of all the passages in the Koran that call for female and world domination by Muslim males like Yasseryousufi? These passages cause for more repugnance and violence than the DADT policies.

Hello Yasseryousufi,

Thank you for your post, and the follow up posts that you made as well. I look forward to doing them justice and responding in more detail, but unfortunately that will have to wait. Today's schedule is packed, and it is an important day for me to remain focused on. The next few days in fact, though I hope to spend a little time on response this evening.

I do not know if I will be of any real help here, though. I am not a believer that any of the sacred scriptural texts are inerrant truth from God, though I would happily concede they are or could be a close approximation of human subjective experience of a spiritual or divine 'revelation'.

In other words, to me the sacred texts are at best depictions of spiritual experiences realized by human minds and hearts, and that mind and heart perceived through it's filters, conditioning and prejudices what it did, then further shaped the 'revelation' by the writing of it.

I do not know how I may write down some of the spiritual experiences that I had and get any fraction of that experience translated to others via those written words. Great masters certainly would have these gifts in greater abundance than any of the more average among us, but it is still an impossible task, in my view.

There may be a myriad of human based reasons for prejudices of all kinds, from skin color to tribal affinities to sexual mores and preferences, and it is my belief that it is in the human judgment that these and other forms of diversity are reviled. I do not believe that God, Creator of All, is the judgmental and jealous One. I believe that humans do this work perfectly well, and that it is their tendency to judge 'other' as good or bad that is the source of pain and ignorance on this planet. God, if there is a metaphor that I line up with, is more like the father/mother/parent of the children created by That. God Loves. Humans judge, and make the rules that define, for them and their tribes, what is right and wrong.

I look forward to spouting further on this subject, when I am able.

Salaam, Yasseryousufi.

......continued

The following is biblical commentary of Romans 1:24-32, provided by the Life Application Bible, New King James Version, Tyndale House Publishers, Inc., Wheaton, Illinois, pg.2056. "Paul clearly portrays the inevitable downward spiral into sin. First, people reject God; next, they make up their own ideas of what a god should be and do; then they fall into sin - sexual sin, greed, hatred, envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice, gossip. Finally, they grow to hate God and encourage others to do so. God does not cause this steady progression toward evil. Rather, when people reject him, He allows them to live as they choose. God gives them over or permits them to experience the natural consequences of their sin. Once caught in the downward spiral, no one can pull himself or herself out. Sinners must trust Christ alone to put them on the path of escape."

The Holy Scriptures of both Jews and Christians forbids homosexuality.

There are two pillars of truth that stand to defend the Bible here, one for Christians, and another for both Jews and Christians. Truth regarding homosexuality for Jews appears in the Torah of the Tanakh (the Christian Old Testament). Truth regarding homosexuality for Christians appears both in the Old and in the New Testament.

• The sin of Sodom was homosexuality.

• Homosexuality is condemned by the Law of Moses in the Jewish Tanakh, in the Torah

• Leviticus 18:22: "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

• Leviticus 20:13: " If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.'

• The male to female sexual relationship is the only one allowed by Jesus (Matthew 19:4-6): "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female, and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

• Sodomy and lesbianism is condemned by God through Paul in Romans 1:24-32: "Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them."

Hello Justin,

Thank you for your response. I have mentioned it quite a few times before. Yousufi is a pretty common surname in Pakistan. Its indicitive of the Pashtun tribe I belong to, Yousufzai's. I will admit that I have been pretty tactless in choosing a moniker that so obviuosly exposes my identity, specially considering that people think of me as a muslim fundie.

About the Sufi's, its true that they were considered heretics by some muslims because of some of their beliefs but they were at the core pious muslims who cared both for muslims the wider world and Islam. But i think the westerners are wrong in assuming that the Sufi's were hedonists or that their motto was "everything goes". Nowhere does Rumi, Bullay Shah, Mansur Bin Hallaj or any other sufi have ever supported homosexuality or any other abomination of this sort.

You have the right to hold your views but for me if the choice is between idealism and "sounding aligned to a more fundamentalist view" I would prefer not to stick with one ideology and form my opinions on a case by case basis. So I will not stop taking three meals a day if someone comes to me and says that fundamentalists also do the same. Its only natural that we will converge on some of the things in life. Both Western Liberals and fundamentalists believe that Islam discriminates against women, minorities etc, but we cannot say on that basis that they're all the same.

However.....there is nothing wrong in debating viewpoints. You are one of the few people on this blog whose judgements I would value, so I will await your response on this.~!

I will, for the umteenth time, say here, what I have said before on this blog, what endless others, theologians, scholars, et al, have said.

TANAKH has NOTHING to say about homosexuality. NOTHING. The construct did not enter Western thought until the nineteenth century. What TANAKH was at pains to end was the RAPE of one man by another, generally perpetrated by victors over the conquered in times of War, during the period, all the rage in the region.

See any Oxford Study Bible on this.

See also the ancient Egyptian "Contending of Horus and Seth (Ramesside Text) available on the web.

The Christians' NT is another matter and it is to that which the Christian/Catholic homophobic clergy appeal. I've posted the relevant passages before and they are readily available on the web. HOWEVER, these passages are also subject to interpretation, and have been interpreted to mean other than that which Christian homophobic clergy suggest.
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On Islam. This is the United States of America. Discussions of homosexuality among some Muslims has opened up. It has opened up here and in Europe.

Pamela is to be praised for this essay.

Hello Yasseryousufi,

I appreciate your post. I certainly understand the ideal of striving to incorporate Sufi ideals, though incorporating it in your name could be a bit misleading if you are not a Sufi in practice.

Your previous statement does sound aligned to a more fundamentalist view, though not necessarily like a reactionary mullah, it travels down that road as opposed to toward liberalization.

I will have to return later. Till then...

Paganplace,

I have no idea what you mean by "your father of lies"! If you're looking for someone to exchange abuses with, it aint me. I got much more important stuff to do. The US can fill its entire army with gays and lesbians, I wont give a hoot about it niether is it my buisness. My concern is that this woman puts on the garb of a muslim and legitimizes stuff that is clearly not legitimate in Islam. I wouldn't care if she were posting as a Christian or whatever her real religion is, but she is clearly out to decieve unassuming muslims about Islam.

Also go and read what bible and tanakh says about gays and lesbians before criticizing Islam~!

""and Gays dominance in the society comes from Satan~!

yasseryousufi""

You mean to say your idea of "Gays' dominance in the society" comes from your "Father of Lies?" (That's who your Satan's supposed to be, right?)

Could well be so.

There's nothing of "dominance" about a minority seeking equality *as individuals* in a *democracy.*

Quite frankly I think you're either the deceiver or the deceived if you think LBGT troops possibly-no-longer-being-forced-to-suffer-abuse-and-injustice-in-silence represents "Gay dominance."

Get real.

Hello Justin~!

Nice to hear from you again! I can understand where you're coming from when you said my post sounded like one of those crazy religous fundos. I might have sounded like one of those reactionalry mullah's who go after women standing up for their rights. First of let me clearup the 'Sufi' thing. I aspire to educate myself in the Sufi traditions, but as of now I am just an ordinary person who feels and expresses all kinds of emotions.

My post to Pamela Taylor certainly wasn't a reactionary one. I have followed her back from her muslimwakeup.com days. She's part of the core group that includes people like Amina Wadud, Asra Nomani, Ahmed Nassief etc and by extention people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Irshad Manji and Wafa Sultan all of them brought forward after 9/11 by the neocons and given wide spread coverage in the Western Media despite their often ignorant and slanderous accusations on Islam. All this hate speech was instantly gobbled up because there was initially a vaccuum on info on Islam and the Neocons made sure that vaccum wont be filled out by authentic people in Islam who wouldn't explain Islam like the way neocons wanted them to.

These so called reformers support gays and lesbians, calling them Islamic too whereas its clearly written they have nothing to do with Islam. They are for re-writing the Quran doing away with parts that deal with Jihad, so that muslims would take it lying down the next time US attacks a muslim country. They started with small infringements like mixed jumma prayers led by a female imam. All of them were virulently anti-islam but after a while when it was apparent that most of their talks were based upon lies and hate speech their charm started to diminish.

I am all for reforms in Islam. I hate the way radicals have hijacked or attempt to hijack my religion too. But reform doesn't mean you have to turn the core values of a religion upside down. Thats treachery and deciet. Reform in itself is a gradual process. The human society is a testament to that. Artificially imposed reforms through the barrel of the gun can never work. Will Pamela Taylor calrify her relation with Daniel Pipes? Don't we all know what the agenda of that moron is. So yea......Pamela Taylor aint no muslim as I said. and yea the satan does exist. I'd like to hear whats in your mind with regards to that phenomenon before writing a long essay to prove its existence. Do you believe it doesn't exist?

Hello Yasseryousufi,

Your post below sounds like any fundamentalist Christian. I had thought of you more as a 'sufi', not a fundie Muslim.

I have the thought that fundamentalists and radicalized brethren are the ones "from Satan". Contra Godlike, in my eyes, that crap. Creates hatred and division between Gods' people. And Gods' people, to me, can be no other than all that He created. Not Muslim, not Jew, not Christian alone. Everyone.

Religious intolerance has created unmistakable suffering and violence in the near east by warring factions of Islam alone, without mentioning the elitist and corrosive influences of a Christianity that is intent upon changing Islam to their own liking. And though there are no shortage of quotations from the Qur'an that support intolerance and prejudice toward non-believers, slavery and subservience of women and the lowly to a patriarchal and dogmatic hierarchy, you have little intolerance for outside inputs seeking change of your prejudices. Yet fundamentalist Muslims have no issue mirroring back to "the West" your scriptural supports for intolerance, hatred and bigotry.

Stuff it up, feel how it feels, and then make an educated choice. I have, and I find fundamentalist and literalist religious viewpoints far from the essence of God.

Your statement to Ms. Taylor rates inclusion into the litany of ignorant accusations whose commonality is distance from essential God, though is closely tied to the darker human traits.

Which may bring up the question. What is Satan, anyway?

Take off that mask Pamela! You aint no Muslim. Whatever this new religion you preach that calls for women Imams and Gays dominance in the society comes from Satan~!

Great essay, Pamela.