We need frank conversations about 9-11 with Muslims

Well said Pamela, as always. I agree that efforts have been made on both sides to repair the damage brought on by 9-11 and the terrible losses to Iraqi and Afghani civilians. But I also agree that the efforts must be doubled.

I hope you persevere in being a voice of reason, despite the many negative - and frequently irrational - blogs that are posted here daily. It's much needed. I am proud to see a Muslim woman carefully and fairly addressing the issues that many of us - both Muslim and non-Muslim - can't. Keep up the good work.

Danielinthelionsden is the typical junkfood eating, truckdriving, fox watching, middle-american bum~!

Yasseryousuffi is the sterotypical, terstoerone soaked angry Muslim.

Jihasist is the iconoclastic kind Muslim.

But as usual you rather go off in a wild goose chase or look for red herring. This is so typical of you islamic apologists. then you claim we paint you all with a broad brush. All the issues you raised are non-squiter. So now it is 31 hours since you have been unabe to muster enough courage to take up the challenge.

- Secular

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So, you can't really talk on or deal with saffron terrorists and Hindutva extremists.

Never mind. Indians, both in India and the "west", both secular and Hindu of all stripes, are a wee "denialist" on Indian/Hindu political and religious extremism. If they do, it is in a "apologist" mode of it is all the fault of Chrisitian and Muslim minorities in India.

Perhaps were Muslims in mass to join with the large and growing extremely diverse group of people around the world---many who are quite credible scientists, well informed and well connected government officials, etc., in challenging the "official" account of 9-11 that blame 19 "Muslims" as the perpetrators this concern about the Eid coinciding with the 9-11 event , the hubbub surrounding the building of a Muslim controlled community facility in the vicinity of the erstwhile World Trade towers, etc., would simply not be able to get started. Responding to symptoms rather than identifying and negating the root or seed cause of the climate of fear mongering, bigotry and so the dis-ease that many Americans have with Muslims will continue to be generated by the lies, deception, evil and ignorance that spawned the problem in the first place. All of the bigotry, and so on is built atop the foundation of highly questionable “facts” that 19 "Muslims" associated with Osama Bin Laden were the perpetrators of the 9-11 attack on the WT Towers. The FBI has had nearly one decade to investigate the event yet it has never up to this very moment associated Osama Bin Laden with the event. That fact alone should make Muslims demand the proof of the other aspects of the events. indisputable truths. "O you who believe, if a wicked person comes to you with any news, ascertain the truth, unless you harm people (including yourselves) unwittingly..."

We have to establish ourselves in our own soul. You have to be able to stand up in your own soul. If you can't face your soul without falling down then you need to get help.

TAYLOR: "I am reminded of South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation. We need both here in America." Really! South Africa is slowly becoming a third-world nation. There is no reason to follow their lead. 9/11 was an attack by radical muslims, period. Twist it, gloss over it, even put lipstick on it, an attack that had worldwide support of muslims. Even those in the US have never criticized or spoken out against muslim atrocities. We are on a collision course with islam--they want it and it will happen. We need to wake up to islam's true nature and the motives of those who believe in it.

- Mr. Jihadist?

- Mr. Yasseryousufi is probably still celebrating Eid.

- You want me to "challenge" you? Or to challenge Muslim extremists? . . .
.

.

Posted by Jihadi
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So the conflation begins. Mr. Jihadi looks like Yousufi has trained you very well. Every one on this thread is quite familiar with the genesis of my challenge to both of you. It was born out of how rest of us view you and that it was our wishful thinking. To that I had asked you both if there was anything from teh Koran and hadith that you would find repugnant enough to repudiate and in the same vein is there any story that you would find factually incorrect. i even cited you the Kurt Weiss exercise.

But as usual you rather go off in a wild goose chase or look for red herring. This is so typical of you islamic apologists. then you claim we paint you all with a broad brush. All the issues you raised are non-squiter. So now it is 31 hours since you have been unabe to muster enough courage to take up the challenge.

Mr. Yousufi, & Mr. Jihadist, in my previous post i challenged you both with this "Now I am asking you both a serious question. Will you both walk up to the plate and face the above challenge, without equivocation?" It has been more than 15 hours since I posted that and haven't heard from you both.

Posted by: Secular

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- Mr. Jihadist?

- Mr. Yasseryousufi is probably still celebrating Eid.

- You want me to "challenge" you? Or to challenge Muslim extremists?

- "Challenging" you, an Indian secular migrant to America, and now an American, would not bring much change to Muslims in India or the "Muslim world". Nor to Newt Gingrich, Pamela Geller, Pat Robertson et al. Nor would it bring any change to your, er, perceptions and notions on Islam and all Muslims.

- Why not, as a secular Indian American, "challenge" American extremist of all ilks and faith group on religions?

- Why not challenge Hindutva extremists in India a.k.a. "saffron terrorists"?

- Hindu extremists and nationalists, from "saffron terrorists" to to practioners and, er, "apologists" of the caste system (as "cultural", not religious based) regardless of laws agaisnt it in India being supposedly to protect "dalits" are above and beyond criticisms?

- Perhaps all the problems in India are the fault of Muslim and Christian minorities as imported faiths destroying and polluting Indian civilisation and sullying India's greatness.

- No different from allegations by some Americans, French, German, Malaysian nationalists/patriots and racial and religious supremacists/bigots alleging specific ethnic and religious groups and/or migrants are a "threat" to their nation politically, economically, culturally, religiously and what have you -and to recommend, or have measures in place against these alien threats, including banning their immigration, deporting them etc.

- Apparently, lobbying America to put and accept India in the nuclear club is more important then the plight of the dalits and religious minorities in India who apparently cause all the strifes in India without any reason in the "wounded" civilisation that is India. So noted V.S. Naipaul before, and the best and brightest Indian Hindus and secularists chose to migrate to the "west" till today too, despite Indian being held to be great and good by these very Indian migrants to the "west".

- Salman Rushdie, Deepak Chopra, Fareed Zakaria etc, and thousands and thousands of Indian doctors, scientists and technologists including in the ICT sector migrated from secular, fair and just India to the "west" because of political, religious and ethnic persecutions.......????

forgive me for my art and my biggott test or intolerance test or smash the disabled to make them walk people, to let people diagnose themselves or have others know what they are if they still cant' sea ......themselves.. i know full well fairy stone park is a Virginia state park not a national park.. that's where all my relative are actually from in real life i don't look like much but i might just be right a good bit of the time if any one cares to listen.... and i did enjoy reading your well thought out words..

Mr. Yousufi, & Mr. Jihadist, in my previous post i challenged you both with this "Now I am asking you both a serious question. Will you both walk up to the plate and face the above challenge, without equivocation?" It has been more than 15 hours since I posted that and haven't heard from you both.

I read your very truthful articulate well thought out words and think i understand them
maybe truth is the foundation that things can actually be built on that stand the test of time and space,,, if a person , a nation, or a people of any kind come with lies and secrets and especially if they deny the people the right as a human being to express what they .. themselves feel.. 4 what ever it is worth and it mite be worth more than gold or diamonds or phony money.. if all are not allowed to talk no healing can happen it is in the peacefully... peacefully and i say a third time not because i'm stupid butt because i think it is important... it is when you blow up some body's house or kill thier daughter or son that they will remember who you were on that day for what ever reason ... you gave... to use violence insted of talking walking maybe insome cases rubbing against each other to know you are both human ... i wonder if the pigrims and our founding fathers who i am a part of and proud of ever felt a little remorse when they realized the people like th Cherokees werw real human beings with very very fine things to teach others just different from the white people. my great grand father was isak Underwood i may have miss spelled his name but in the book of his times that is actually in the library of congress. it says i have a little bit of cherokee in me and how .. in the blueridge mountains of Virginia some of the Cherokee stayed and assimilated with the hillbilly's maybe improving each other bloodlines .. i dont know 4 sure i do know fairystone national parks in the yard of my family . the fairy stone is a natural mineral in the form of a cross or crucifix and considered sacred if i'm not. wrong by both cherokee and Christians but double check me you could not not make this kind of thing up google m real family who think i'm stupid and useless but i suspect we all know we love each other i have chosen yuor words to leave my words with i think you got it right oh and when you look at me idon't looklike much maybe you could mistake me for bum or homeless person or mentally retarded (in the scientific sense not the derogatory one i have disabilities and abilites) but i have a very high iq i just have trouble communicating in real time and i think i may know the actual science behind what causes it. with real human beings there is a difference between can't and won't if a person can't do 1 thing they should be allowed to select thier path 2 the next thing

Mr Yousufi, & Jihadist you guys wrote "Its almost as if they would rather us believe in the Islam they believe we believe in". It is not the case that we want you to believe in what we believe you believe in. While you may want to cast it in those terms, we do realize that each of the muslims is different as we are from each other. That said we do understand that there is a set of core beliefs you subscribe to which are indeed antithetical to us your critics. We do not loathe you or hate you per se because you are of certain religion. I definitely hate all of the scripture no matter where its origins are. They are totally worthless books for 21st century living. They are vile & putrid. I do have a low opinion of anyone who buys into them lock, stock and barrel or tries to sell them lock, stock & barrel. Again here I do not make any exceptions.

It so happens that you guys buy into your scripture lock, stock & barrel more than other religionists. Let me ask you can you find anything in your scripture that is repugnant you or find some story completely false on facts. If I gave you a pair of scissors and asked you to do Kurt Weiss's experiment, how much of your Koran will be on the floor. At least in case of Kurt Weiss, he went thru the exercise and still made a conscious decision to go with bible. What a pity and miserable thing to have done for Nobel material to sacrifice all that potential for a mythical skydaddy.

Mr. Yousufi, in the past you have accused me of making jokes and ridiculing you. Guilty as charged, without apologies on the latter charge. Now I am asking you both a serious question. Will you both walk up to the plate and face the above challenge, without equivocation?

Its almost as if they would rather us believe in the Islam they believe we believe in.

Posted by: yasseryousufi

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Looks like they regard you as "unreasonable" for not letting their posts past. A "moderate" or "reasonable" Muslim, by their reasoning, is one who agrees with their woolier notions and assumptions to reinforce their views.

They love Pat Robertson, Robert Spenser, Anne Coulter, Newt Gingrich, Pamela Geller, Wafa Sultan, Rush Limbaugh, Ayaan Hirsi Ali et al. They got their knowledge on Islam and Muslims from Al Qaeda, Taliban, Liberty University, JihadWatch, Fox News, Hindutva etc.

They are also "believers" of what they think they believe we all are. They do think Muslims are monolithic from Morocco to Indonesia in politics, in history, in culture, in tradition, in schools of thought, in jurisprudence.

If some Americans want to dumb themselves down, whip themselves into a frenzy and paranoia over an alleged global Muslim conspiracy and threat to civilisation, well...they let themselves get there in spite of living in the most powerful and advanced nation in the world.

How to compare and excuse Anne Coulter with a Taliban without the benefit of her education and opportunity?

DanielintheLionsDen welcome to the club of Mr. Yousufi's scorn. You are the fifth person to have been bestowed this honor. My dear old foe is AKA Dr. Conflation.

Here is one of Mr yousufi's beauty "And actually I know a bit about how Western Societies work. I can tell you with certainty that USA is the only country in the world in this day and age where Public burning of holy books can occur with impunity. In Europe and rest of the world, they have laws against inciting racial/religous hatred. Democracy after all has its flaws as well". This guy thinks banning of holy book burning is step forward. Then what to think of all his muslim paradises, which burn all the holy books brought into those countries, whose name is not Koran. Another of beauts on this blog was muslims do not refer to non-muslims as infidels at all, except every other verse i the his damn holy book condemns the INFIDELS.

Mr. Yousufi, you are really a piece of work, do you demand unqualified respect for that vile incoherent tome?

The "Muslim World" does not have to reach out to Non-muslims. What will you say? There is no God, but Allah.

If, if, if "moderate" muslims truly want to live in peace as muslims with others as they claim, they will have to teach their FELLOW MUSLIMS about tolerance. Not Americans, not Europeans, not Buddhist, not Hindus, etc.

For example, New Yorkers were impressively tolerant before & after 9/11. NY had all kinds of people living together. THEY DON'T NEED TO LEARN ABOUT TOLERANCE.

Muslims attacked the World Trade Center in 1993, and the "Muslim World" included Rauf did nothing but blame American foreign policy - forgetting the aid to Kosovo, Afghanistan, Egypt, Jordan, Pakistan,...

Muslims attacked the World Trade Center again on 9/11. Again, the "muslim world" did not do anything to change their members who supposedly don't understand Islam.

Muslims attacked Manhattan again this year with extensive organizations support from Pakistan.

Pakistanis have been killing Ahmedis, Shiits, Sufis and others all year. Discrimination & INTOLERANCE is enshrined in the laws of Pakistan & Saudi Arabia.

IMAM RAUF & DAISY KHAN,
BUILD AN INTERFAITH CENTER DEDICATED TO TOLERANCE OF ALL (MUSLIMS & NONMUSLIMS) IN PAKISTAN AND SAUDI ARABIA. THEN, IF NEEDED, BUILD ONE NEAR GROUND ZERO.

THE TRUTH IS AMERICANS & MOST EVERYONE IN THE WORLD GET IT; IT'S THE MUSLIMS WHO DON'T SEEM TO HAVE LEARNED TOLERANCE.

Ms. Taylor you wrote very eloquently, "American Muslims have heard our fellow Americans as well. We hear your fears that Islam teaches violence and intolerance, that Muslims want to dominate the world by conversion or by force. We hear your worries that extremism will spread, and result in more and more acts of terror. We hear your confusion that American Muslims claim that Muslims love freedom, human rights, democracy, and that Islam stands for justice, equality, compassion and inter-communal harmony, but the example of some Muslim countries -- those that most loudly proclaim to be Islamic -- not only belie those claims, but embody some of the worst human rights violations, the worst brand of totalitarianism, the worst record of misogyny, homophobia and bigotry to be found on the globe".

Then you add "For our part, we have tried to reach out. We have engaged in the local level, as well as the national, with communities of faith in dialogue and in cooperative projects. We have clearly and loudly repudiated terrorism. We have brought theology and the example of our own lives to back up the claims we make for Islam". But I beg to differ on this. There was hardly any effort made in this direction, other than oft repeated phrases

1) Islam is a religion of peace.
2) Jihad means internal struggle to be good.
3) The extremists are misguided and are anti-islamic.
4) So on and on mouthing total inanities.

Had the community at large had done that then we would have seen lot more action in the 47 odd islamic paradises towards recognition of human rights and all the issues in the first paragraph I quoted from your article. We have seen none that even in a single one of those paradises. All you cared about is to ensure that your lives are in no way jeopardized. You did not want to in any way cause discomfort to the powers to be in your homelands. What the Islamic community has done is tried to run a PR campaign in the west so the negative reaction is minimal. If you had heard it then, we would have seen several centers open up in Cairo, Karachi, Jakarta, Kuala Lumpoor, Dacca, etc instead of trying to open in NYC. NYC with 100 mosques is not the place we need to promote more tolerance, but those paradises where there is no tolerance. So please spare us your tired explanations and your lectures to us on how we should conduct ourselves, and lessons on tolerance.

Sorry Pamela, "Modern Muslim" is an oxymoron.

Abraham, it's high time somebody spoke the truth about the canard the Muslim apologists drag out about how we're just as bad as the Muslims: "Look at the Crusades!"

What rot! The entire world of that age was brutal and savage. The Muslims, as is their nature, pillaged and slaughtered in their conquest of the Holy Lands, and the Crusades were mounted to recover them. (They were also the Pope's way of channeling Frankish thuggery to a more righteous endeavor. You know, like how we try to get young gangsters to enlist.)

Judeo-Christianity brought the West kicking and screaming to civilization. Islam reinforced the brutal, benighted, atavistic mindset of its adherents. Christendom outgrew its barbarity. Islam did not.

Dear [i-mam} Pamela K. T. & Co.;

Ye hath become a very good student of OUR's.

You have Used Sister; Psychologist/Psychiatrist , ELIZABETH KUBLER ROSS's {pbuh], own "D.A.B.D.A." Jitters" (as WE[i] Eklahti-ON's Refer to Liz's Analysis); via the "Stages of Huumate (as well as Human) Grief" encounters etc..

i[WE] Like How Ye/Yo plugged-in a couple of other words. Please see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Death_and_Dying ETC..

Note: Ishlami's still have a lot to learn from US. otherwise nice nice. Keep Trying. Sing,

"Happy Everyday!"

Maybe it's a thing about America, ...seems a lot of people don't feel this way, but I look at the promises of this nation, and before *my* Gods, I'll say,

"It's a mess, but it's one of the best things we've seen in a long time. Help us *make it work.*"

Terrorists, and dividers, and ideologues, Fundamentalists, corporate greedy sobs, Dominionists and all the rest, Don't want it to.

And they're probably right to fear.

Cause this ain't a 'means to an end.'

It's a way to do better. Maybe we don't know where it goes, for sure, but as someone who doesn't believe human life is just some interlude between oblivion and some pass/fail 'eternity,' I say it's *gotta* be worth finding out.

Even if we have to take a few chances on each other. So democracy and advertising are kind of a funny combination. We've *all* seen worse, so, Let's keep the oaths. Let's see what we can do. For the good of all. There's a lot to do, but who's in a hurry to get bored, anyway?

It's *crazy,* this America, but I love it. So. Love it. Why not? All the rest these radicals are talking never got us anywhere but history classes no one gets. :)

I may end up repeating this on a lot of threads, Ms. Taylor. I *don't* think there's anything inherently so special about your holy books, religiously. In fact, a lot of it is damn problematic and scary for a Pagan American.

But *As* and American, and in a funny way, therefore, as a Pagan, they don't have to be.

As a fellow citizen, if they're valuable to you, they're valuable to *me,* whatever I think of what's done with them.

And I think why these book-burners got such an overwhelming reaction against them
is because they crossed a line as to *that.*

I don't think monotheists and pundits and related theologians even understand *why.* But there's a line, for Americans.

In my own faith, I often swear by Gods specifically as 'Those Who Help Me Keep My Oaths.'

I do actually see the world that way, though.

Maybe some don't, but I believe that some Fundies (on both sides, if you see who capitalizes on this across the world) were trying to arrange a symbolic oathbreaking.

And I think there's one of these brilliant little things about America that means we can't be scared enough to cross some lines, even if maybe most of us don't know why.

May as well be a hotel Gideon's Bible to me, your Koran, or a Torah, or whatever other thing. But. If it's important to *you,* well, I'll pull it out of a burning building for you, and if someone deliberately wants to burn it, well, then, they're betraying what makes us America.

This isn't about books and Gods, it's about our promises to each *other,* and people trying to hurt people in order to break trust and pick fights.

I say, No.

Daniel:
Your friend who accused you of being a graduate of Fox and who denies calling non-Muslims "infidels" has described me also as a graduate of Fox. This Taliban madrassa graduate is also obsessed with the Crusades. He justifies every misdeed by his friends to the Crusades as demonstrated below.

“Building mosques was considerably mild in comparison to what the Crusaders did.”

Maybe we need to educate him and his ilk about the genesis of the Crusades.
The Crusades was a rather timid, mild and belated reaction by some Christians of Europe to centuries of church burnings, killings, enslavement, pillaging and forced conversions by barbarian hordes from the Arabian deserts fighting the world in the name of a desert deity.
The first Crusade began in 1095… 460 years after the first Christian city was overrun by Muslim armies, 457 years after Jerusalem was conquered by Muslim armies, 453 years after Egypt was taken by Muslim armies, 443 after Muslims first plundered Italy, 427 years after Muslim armies first laid siege to the Christian capital of Constantinople, 380 years after Spain was conquered by Muslim armies, 363 years after France was first attacked by Muslim armies, 249 years after Rome itself was sacked by a Muslim army.

Yazirjuseph

I have had 9 Muslim friends from Islamic countries. All of them were highly critical of Islam. One of them cried that she wished that she had never heard of that name "Mohammed" because it had ruined her life.

That is my personal experience with Muslims whom I have known.

I suppose you would reply, "oh those don't count ... " for this technical reason, or for that hair-splitting reason.

I have heard you say with pride, that Islam is the fastest growing religion in America. And then I have heard you say again with total contempt, that those securlized American Muslims don't count.

So which is it? What about Pamela Taylor? Maybe she doesn't have enough testoserone to qualify as a REAL Islamic "Man?"

Is she one of those heretical female Muslims who don't know their place? What really do you think?

People like you, with your cup over-flowing with testosterone, are not doing Islam any good.

yassiryoussffiii

So, because I am an American, I automatically love Fox News? Why do you say that? It think it must be obvious how I feel about Fox News. Why don't you just call me fat, or ugly? You are making a false accusation to be mean and spiteful, to further boost your claim that Islam is all about peace and love. Is it? Is it really? It doesn't seem so.

Yasseryousouffi

You are paranoid and childish. You tell so many lies that I cannot reply to them all.

I do not hate Islam, and I do not hate Mulims, and I have not protrayed all Mulsims as terrorists. My voice is moderate, indeed. I have never said that all Muslims use the word infidel. You just imagined that I said that.

I made a number of good points that you did not answer and cannnot answer. All you do in your every post to me is show what contempt you feel towards me, personally, because I am not Muslim, and because I am American.

I am expected to know every nuanced aspect of your religion, which is, I admit, alien, to me. It is insincere and disingenuous to insist that no commumication regarding your religion can be allowed unless I become an expert on it.

That is just not going to happen. In the past, I have had religous arguments with Mormons, Baptists, and Catholics, which can turn mighty ugly. They always retreat to the final argument, that I am not allowed to coment on things that I do not understand. This is the IDENTICAL argument that you use to protect Islam from any criticism.

To criticize the flaws in something is not the same as hating. Obviously that is beyond your capcity to understand. You keep pointing out that extremest Muslims are not really representative of Islam, but you present youself, as a VERY ugly example of Islam.

I suppose you think you are cute and clever, but your comments here do not do your cause any good at all.

Daniel,

This is really amusing, I just threw in a bait and you took it hook line and sinker. Try reading again what I said. I said how would those who employ guilt by association upon us muslims by saying "well you're all just a bunch of extremists" because of what a few firebrand Jihadis say and then they will point to verses in the Quran taken out of context and Islamic History and say "see this what your book says, you're all terrorists". I only suggested trying this reverse psychology test on those people and see if they like it or not and you proved my point absolutely. Of course I know this is a fringe priest who heads a congregation of 50 people and that there is freedom of expression in America.

Now I've never called you stupid. I did liken you to a Country Bum because of your penchant for believing all hate-islam stories on Fox News. You even told me once how surprised you were to see your Iraqi friend was actually talking with an Israeli girl. You also made fun of people in Pakistan who die in suicide bombs. That was a huge turn-off.

Coming back to us calling you infidel, have you ever heard a muslim poster on WaPo calling anyone Infidel or Kafir? You just cite one incident as proof that all muslims call you Infidel or Kafir? Thats pretty lame dude~! I'd actually like to see the proof of those television programs where you allege muslims use the "I" word because you have some credibility issues when it comes to talking on Islam.

And actually I know a bit about how Western Societies work. I can tell you with certainty that USA is the only country in the world in this day and age where Public burning of holy books can occur with impunity. In Europe and rest of the world, they have laws against inciting racial/religous hatred. Democracy after all has its flaws as well.

And one more thing for Yousufiieyasser

In the United States, there is zero regulation of religion. Therefore, ANYBODY, can just say, out of their own head, that they are the leader of a religion. There is no qualifiation of registration process. There is no official in the government in charge of regulating religion.

So this guy in Florida has appointed himself to be the Grand Imperial Wizard of a church that he has invented, you are calling him Father, and all the world is braced for the cataclysmic event of this psycho guy burning Korans in the name of all Christian people.

You do not have a clue about how Western societies operate, nor what freedom to breath and think freely must mean. That guy is as free as anyone to do anything he thinks, and if Muslims all over the world are going to attribute his motivations to all Christians, to all Western Secularists, to President Obama, and to me, then I think they really don't like us anyway, andare just seeking any excuse to vent their hatred towards us.

yasseryousufi

You like to point out how stupid I am.

So, here is a pointer for you.

The term "Father" is never applied to Protestant Pastors. In the United States, it almost always applies to Catholic Priests. So, now you have learned something that may help you look less stupid in the future.

The guy who wants to burn the Koran is just one man. So what? Just what terrible thing do you think will happen if the Koran gets burned (other than anti-Western riots breaking out)? Is there magic in it, or something? (This is not rhetorical; I am serious).

In the West, people have freedom to do as they please; that is why they call it freedom. So we are all terrible because other people are free to do things you do not agree with? What part about relious freedom don't you get?

I do not believe in book-burning, and I do not believe in being deliberately offensive to other people, or purposfully insulting them. But if someone else does burn a Koran, for the express purpose of upsetting you, it really is YOUR problem to deal with, isn't it? An extreme reaction of emotion is childish. Beyond that, a violent reaction is really a sort of weird psycholocigal panic-attack, not really religious fervor at all, but anxiety at the nihilsim which seems to breath down the necks, at least of extremist Muslims, and motivates their irrational actions.

But Jihadist

I heard this with my very own ears:

A number of years ago, on CSPAN, the cameras were present on a meeting of Arab Foreing Ministers. I believe the meeting was in Saudia Arabia. It was supposed to be a big deal. And these men, at the highest level of Arab governments, were discussing how to deal with the "infidels." There was general agreement, that some kind of accomodation must be made for all infidels to get a chance to know about the beauty of Islam.

To me it seemed crazy, and it seemed even crazier because they didn't know how crazy it was, and were allowing their crazy conversations about infidels and conversions of infidels to be broadcast on international television.

I realize that all Muslims do not sit around and dwell on the problem of the infidels. I, myself, have been friends with 9 Muslim people from several Muslim countries, and all of them had fairly unkind things to say about Islam. So Islam cannot be thought of as a monolithic thing.

But why do we have these sterotypes? Where do they come from?

Perhaps most of my hearing of the word "infidel" comes from the television news broadcasts when there are official statements being made, but the term "infidel" is commonly used by Muslims, as reported on TV.

If this is a misrepresentation of the way most Muslims feel, then I would be interested to know.

That guy, yassersyousiffi, just calls me a stupid American no matter what I say, so, without regarding him sterotypically or realistically, I just dont' like him.

Jihadist,

Eid Mubarak to you as well. It happens to most "Islamic Scholars" of WaPo who learn their Islam from Robert Spencer or Pam Geller and then turn up with egg on their face when they bring their fantastical theories to people who actually know a thing or two about Islam.

Im sure they'll hate it if we started saying one Father Terry Jones speaks for the whole white christian race/religion. We could then show passages from Bible and instances from American History of what he says is actually true.

Its almost as if they would rather us believe in the Islam they believe we believe in. I believe they're just sheep-headed and love pointing it out to them.

Jihadist, you seem like a reasonable choice of person to ask this...

The Quran contains some awful ideas that some people still mindlessly follow precisely because they're in that book. What is the proper way to protest those?

The fact that millions of good people accept other parts of the Quran as their spiritual and moral guidance is not a reason we have to accept the Quran "in toto."

You whats funny, I've been a Muslim all my life and not once have I ever heard a Muslim use the 'I' word. Its just the anti-Islam Bigots and Hatemongers who use the 'I' word. Your outrage is misplaced and as always based upon ignorance.

Posted by: yasseryousufi

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Yes, you are right. The word "infidel" or "kafir" is used more by non-Muslims than Muslims to apply to non-Muslims.

In my neck of the woods, we simply call non-Muslims, if by their faith affiliations - Jews, Buddhists, Christians, Hindus etc.

It would seem that non-Muslim posters in On Faith use "infidel" or "kafir" quite a bit too.

And yes, I am a flamboyantly, flaming, inflaming, intolerant "infidel" for Christians who believe I have reflexive assumption that I am right, superior, and better than them, and one Terry Jones wants to lit up a fire to inflame me and such to teach me a lesson in humility. :)

Eid Mubarak to you and yours.

J

yasseryousufi

I have heard Muslims use the word "Infidel" lots of times. It is the common word of dismissal of that that is un-Islamic.

You are disingenuous and insincere, maybe even a liar. Your country and your religion has a very bad reputation. That is not my problem or my fault. It is up to you to revamp your misbegotten reputation.

Defiance and anger, and professional victimhood does not do you any good, but only reinforces what everyone already thinks.

Your country would do well to spend less money on nuclear adventurism, and more on flood control projects; then you would not be so dependent on the charity of cheap penny-pinching Muslim states like Iran or Sauidi Arabia, who love and worship money an power more than helping their fellow Muslims and fellow man.

Dear Pamela, As a women what do you think if Jihadi muslims are raping Hindu women TONIGHT, yes tonight, in the name of Islam and bounty of harvest of infidels? I am sorry to say this crudely - matter of factly.

Just check out what is happening in this border district in India facing Islamic Bangladesh, classic demographic warfare by Muslims once they reach the "threshold" of Intolerance! Lesson for America!

NO RESPITE DESPITE ARMY PRESENCE
http://hindusamhati.org/

NO RESPITE DESPITE ARMY PRESENCE. TODAY MORNING AGAIN MUSLIMS ARE ATTACKING DIFFERENT HINDU VILLAGES AROUND KARTICKPUR AWAY FROM THE MAIN ROAD.

HINDU WOMEN ARE FLEEING FROM BISWANATHPUR TOWARDS KARTICKPUR AS A LARGE MUSLIM MOB IS PROCEEDING FROM DOGACHHIA SIDE. POLICE IS TOTALLY HELPLESS. SEVERAL RAF PERSONNEL HAVE BEEN SEVERELY BEATEN UP BY THE MUSLIMS. EVEN ARMY IS UNABLE TO STOP THE MUSLIM MOB.

"KHEJURDANGA KARMAKAR PARA" VILLAGE JUST NOW BURNT. IT IS 2 KM. INSIDE FROM THE MAIN ROAD. ARMY IS NOT GOING THERE.

WOMEN ARE SCARED. ARMY IS NOT GOING INSIDE AS THEIR NUMBER IS TOO SMALL, ONLY ABOUT 200

SITUATION EXTREMELY WORSE. HINDUS ARE WAITING FOR MASSACRE. ALL SIDES ARE BLOCKED BY THE MUSLIMS. NO ROUTE TO ESCAPE.

http://hindusamhati.org/

Ms. Modern Muslim, could you share what is the correct way to protest the bad ideas the Quran contains, about infidels, women and violence?

The fact that many good people consider it holy is not a reason we should not protest its awful parts, and the fact that people even today use them to commit atrocities.

Sorry about the double post, WaPo has been playing tricks with me lately~!

DanielintheLionsDen writes,

There is the automatic assumption that all who are not Muslim are "infidels." At the very, very least, this ugly word hutrs people's feelings, as it is intended to do.

Could not Muslims PLEASE ban this ugly, ugly word from their vocabulary? In America, we are doing fine without tossing the "N" word around as we used to do; so why can't Muslims extend to us, the same courtesy?

********************************

You whats funny, I've been a Muslim all my life and not once have I ever heard a Muslim use the 'I' word. Its just the anti-Islam Bigots and Hatemongers who use the 'I' word. Your outrage is misplaced and as always based upon ignorance.

DanielintheLionsDen writes,

There is the automatic assumption that all who are not Muslim are "infidels." At the very, very least, this ugly word hutrs people's feelings, as it is intended to do.

Could not Muslims PLEASE ban this ugly, ugly word from their vocabulary? In America, we are doing fine without tossing the "N" word around as we used to do; so why can't Muslims extend to us, the same courtesy?

********************************

You whats funny, I've been a Muslim all my life and not once have I ever heard a Muslim use the 'I' word. Its just the anti-Islam Bigots and Hatemongers who use the 'I' word. Your outrage is misplaced and as always based upon ignorance.

I am not uncomfortable with the word, infidel. It just sounds an awful lot like the word, n i g g e r that the old Red Neck Regime used to assert superiority over the black people in the old Jim Crowe South.

I hardly think the use of this ugly, ugly word is anything to defeind, or feel proud of. And I think that Muslims would do will to repair their tattered reputations to stop using it, PERIOD!

Jim965

I said, "many Muslims."

Islam is flamboyantly intolerant. "Infidel" is an intolerant and insulting concept. If you are proud of that, then good for you. Thankyou very much for being honest about a very ugly part of your belief system.

Pardon me for having a non-Muslim opinion.

So much for your Americaphobia, Westernphobia, and Secularphobia.

@Danielinthelionsden:
"Many Muslims have in common with many Christians, a reflexive assumption that they are right, superior, and better than people of other faiths."

Really? Where in Ms. Taylor's post does she come across as right, superior and better than others? I mean, a Muslim that is the opposite of what you say is staring you in the face, and you still can't see it? What Muslim in the sky are you referring to? What about the one in front of your face?

"Could not Muslims PLEASE ban this (infidel) ugly, ugly word from their vocabulary?" Yes, why don't we, with 1400 years of history and 1.6 billion adherents, ban a word from an entire religion, because you're uncomfortable with it? WHO is the acting the superior one here?

Islam has a bloody history and many concepts that make people cringe. It is not unique, all religions have violent histories and bad apples. You cannot apologize for an entire religion, and you shouldn't even be expected to apologize for it's bad apples.

Ms. Taylor is doing exactly what needs to be done- creating a progressive dialog that will slowly but surely move things in the right direction.

The only thing I will add is that denial is wrong in all its forms- America needs to also have a dialog with itself about its foreign policies- propping up military dictators, then arming insurgencies, then abandoning countries, drone attacks with innocent collateral damage, repressive monarchies that are our "allies" in the MidEast (the West complains that Islam suppresses its women, then shakes hands and helps keep the very patriarchal monarchs that take that power away from women in power..tsk tsk)...I mean, come on, what about all of this denial? Where is the frank discussion in the American public discourse? You think Muslims don't like free speech, just try saying any of this to anyone and you'll be shouted down as "unpatriotic".

Are we free to criticize Islam without the accusation of Islamophobia, the least, or murder, the worst. I have many problems with the religion, both theoretical and practical. Dialog is a good thing, but dialog with death threats looming in the background is not free and open discussion.

Pamela Taylor,

Eid Mubarak to you and yours.

J

The last thing we need in this country is a Truth and Reconciliation Committee modeled after South Africa's. It resulted primarily in the worst of the worst Boer offenders getting away with murder, not to mention the Winnie Mandelas of this world.
__________________________________

Perhaps of interest to all.
The most recent FBI report on religious bias crimes in the United States:

Religious bias

Of the 1,732 victims of anti-religious hate crimes:

* 66.1 percent were targeted because of an offender’s anti-Jewish bias.

* 7.5 percent were victims because of an anti-Islamic bias.

* 5.1 percent were victims because of an anti-Catholic bias.

* 3.6 percent were victims because of an anti-Protestant bias.

* 0.8 percent were targeted because of an anti-Atheist/Agnostic bias.

* 12.8 percent were victims because of a bias against other religions (anti-other religion).

* 4.0 percent were victims because of a bias against groups of individuals of varying religions (anti-multiple religions, group).

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2008/incidents.html

The reason for all the Islamophobic bigotry is quite simple:

The US was defeated on 9/11.
The US was defeated again in Afghanistan.
The US was defeated again in Iraq.

These defeats have led the people of the US down the same road taken by defeated Germany after World War 1.

After WW1, Germans had to blame someone for Germany's defeat; it had to be the result of a conspiracy - yes, that's it, a conspiracy - of Jews and international banking interests.

Today's American defeats also have to be the result of a conspiracy - yes, that's it, a conspiracy - of Muslims and international oil interests.

Despite all the propaganda about the US leaving with honor, Americans know perfectly well that they lost these wars, which is why the building of a mosque in Manhattan is framed by Islamophobic reactionaries in guilt-ridden terms as the construction of a "Victory Mosque".

This is all fancy talk for what can be stated far more simply: Americans are bad losers.

Many Muslims have in common with many Christians, a reflexive assumption that they are right, superior, and better than people of other faiths. This causes real problems between the two groups, and reduces all other religions to collateral damage.

There really is no hope at all for peaceful coexistence among differing religious beliefs until they all embrace a doctrine of tolerance as part of their religion. There is no evidence at all that this is happening in Islam. There is the automatic assumption that all who are not Muslim are "infidels." At the very, very least, this ugly word hutrs people's feelings, as it is intended to do.

Could not Muslims PLEASE ban this ugly, ugly word from their vocabulary? In America, we are doing fine without tossing the "N" word around as we used to do; so why can't Muslims extend to us, the same courtesy?

No. What we really need is a frank talk about the actual existence of Allah the great sky-God, aka God. Really. To establish sanity in world affairs we should first debate whether it makes sense to teach our children that there really is a supernatural world with a god in it - when as far as we actually know - there is no such thing. We made it all up - or our ancestors did. It will be a better world - a safer world - a saner, more together world if we could all agree to dump God,aka Allah - into the garbage can of history, where he belongs, with the thousands of other imaginary Gods.

The only way to go.