Trust Christ, Not Feelings

This is regarding the post by JEREMY who posted on August 30th, 2007.

JEREMY's post is the perfect example of why it is so important to have the truth spoken (and written) in order to help others understand the truth. When we first set out to make our point by quoting anything other than the holy Scriptures (as Jeremy did) we are already missing the point. The word of God, given to Christians in the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments is the Living word fo God.

As for the lacking of facts that Jeremy attributes to God's word I have to admit that I am dumbfounded by such statements. The written word of God is not only the richest source from which to draw where our faith is concerned. It is the only source from which to know the most important facts of all. That is, the human condition is utterly hopeless as we are eternally lost in our sin. That Jesus Christ, born of a virgin, fully man and fully God lived a life of complete obedience to God the Father and died on the cross, the perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world. That through faith in Him alone are we saved.

Not only are these Facts enough for Christians to "go on". They are the only Facts that are necessary. Furthermore, these Facts stand true throughout the ages with no dependency at all on how we might Feel about them.

I think of Paul in Corinth.

"For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." (1 Cr. 2:2 KJV).

if i confess that im trusting jesus as savior from hell into heaven are we having true faith

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AUTHOR OF THIS BOOK DELIVER A MESSIAH MISTAKEN IDENTITY CLAIMS JESUS IS DEAD. iS HE A MUSLIM OR NOT? DO NOT THE MUSLIMS AND CHRISTIANS BELIEVE IN THE SECOND COMING? AND AS FOR IT BEING JOHN THE BAPTIST ON THE CROSS, YOU CAN GO F#@$ YOURSELF MR. BELICA YOU ARE THE ANTI-CHRIST IN THE FLESH. TOTAL MANIPULATION OF THE SCRIPTURES- I DONT CARE ABOUT THIS BULL-@#!% PROOF OF YOURS. YOU WONT GET AWAY WITH THIS YOU DEVIL. I DONT CARE WHAT THE GOSPELS SAY I HAVE FAITH IN MY LORD JESUS

Deliver a messiah mistaken identity ...and again.. another blog with this persons marketing scam on every blog having to do with religion and jesus christ and muslims... I wonder how much blog marketing spam costs these days. I think I will write a book on how jesus christ was fathered by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) when he went through a worm hole in time and space! I bet I can make some money off it! Do not play into these people. They are not trying to spread knowledge, they are trying to use your interest to get your money. If you have money to waste, then use your money for better things like zakat.

Deliver A Messiah, "Mistaken Identity" by Agron Belica brings forth an elaborative examination of who was put on the cross. Many theories suggest that the son of Mary (aka Jesus Christ) was not the person placed on the cross, but someone other than Jesus Christ himself. The author takes you through an examination paving ways of new insight of who might have been put on the cross.
To contribute to the present work, the author investigated and researched to seek the truth about the assumptive facts leading up to what people of Christendom believe to be the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. The Bible and the Koran are the main resources used as references formally presented in use of persuasive arguments and theories of why the author strongly does not believe that the son of Mary was killed nor crucified.
The author has made every effort to be as unbiased and objective in presenting the facts and interpreting the events in this present work. The author is not trying to stir up controversy, but only wishes to lead people towards what might be considered the truth about the events believed about the crucifixion. The author strongly believes that the prevailing powers during that era have camouflaged the truth. The cover-up of the crucifixion with a false pretext was to lead the masses of people in the past and at present to believe, that the son of Mary was really crucified, by the leading elite that was influenced by the Jewish religious hierarchy at that time.
This book is in itself a preface to a larger work soon to come—an introduction to the topic. Who was put on the cross at Calvary those many years ago? Join author Agron Belica in his attempt to Deliver a Messiah.

AuthorHouse Publishing

If you have faith in Christ, but no personal feelings about it, then how do you have a testimony of Christ, or a personal relationship with Him?

Mother Teresa Was Indeed Acknowledged and Favored by God But Through Her Lack of Understanding She Could Not Recognize It.
This is a mistake easily made today in our era. The explanation starts in the working of the brain. Let me explain.
Our head contains three main drives or brains, each independent but tremendously inter wired i.e. an emotional brain, a behavioral, action brain, and an intellectual brain. Each of these is able to communicate with another person or with God. Each has memory and can reason. Each person is an individual and develops each brain differently and differently to other people. The result is some people are more intellectual, others are more emotional with love and relationships, and yet others are more physical and active. In relating to God intellectuals emphasize prayers, facts, faith, emotional people emphasize love, feelings, adoration and action, behavioral people emphasize rituals, ceremony, service.
According to the above article Mother Teresa desperately longed for God’s love. – I long for God, she wrote, but find longing and no love.
Washington Post article September 5, 2007 Article –10 Years Later, Mother Teresa Remembered – states –When she died on Sept. 5, 1997 at 87, her Missionaries of Charity had nearly 4.000 nuns and ran roughly 600 orphanages, soup kitchens, homeless shelters and clinics around the world.
There are now more than 4,800 sisters and more than 750 homes around the world, according to the order.
The above is a fantastic accomplishment and in so many cultures.
Surely anyone on such an amazing journey and accomplishment against such great odds must be dancing in the streets for joy and forever giving thanks to God for such fantastic success and such continuous help and solutions given naturally through the subconscious to anyone living and working in the spiritual world.
It is sad that a person living and working in the behavioral, action world would not see the great reward given in the same area but look for reward only in a different world and brain area.
What I am saying is that there are three brain areas of communication between a person and God and if God is over whelming a person with success and praise in one certain brain area he can not be accused of neglecting the person.
It Is In A Behavioral, Action Manner That We Will Have To Build __ The Heaven On Earth World __ Advocated By Jesus Christ.

Dr Mohler does a great disservice to the cause of the true gospel by saying that "Mother" Teresa was a Christian. She was not. She was a Catholic who never received Christ by faith ALONE.

Mr. Mohler is, as are all ministers, priests, mullahs, rabbis, bishops, a con man continually squeezing out of all situations enough to keep the poor minded folks brainwashed over religion. It is all a fairy tale told by idiots, meaning nothing. I am starting a new church deifying Santa Claus. Anyone interested?

Evangelicals and other Christians call Christ “our Lord” but Christ plainly states that we should call no man master and no man father because we all have the same master and the same father, even the Christ. Christ also states that he wants us to be his fellow servants, in other words, to be like him.
Not that I don’t believe in his divinity but that I believe in our own divine nature. Ancient Jewish belief, Cabbalistic thought, states that we have three centers of energy. The lower is our animal nature, the brain is our human nature, and the heart is our divine nature.
Scientists today believe that consciousness comes solely from the brain when in fact it can not be localized because it is in all places at all times. God is pure consciousness and the two great ethical luminaries are love and intelligence. Without these we have fear and ignorance.
Consciousness is the root and fabric from which all manifested things spring and we are able to partake of a little of it, some more than others. Einstein said “ The most beautiful and the most profound emotion we can experience is the sensation of the mystical, it is the sower of all true science. Those who can no longer stand rapt in awe and wonder are as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us actually exists and manifests itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty that our dull faculties can comprehend, this knowledge, this feeling, is at the heart of all true religiousness”.
Faith has many meanings to many people but I will put my faith in God and Christ’s message concerning the Supreme Being.

The real trouble with faiths like Christianity and Islam is that they both insult God.

Christianity insults God by making a human, Jesus, a good man but not a perfect man, God. Also known as idolatry.

Islam associates a criminal, named Muhammad and the Arabic god Muhammad created, Allah with God.

Mr. Mark,

You are certainly wise in your own eyes. The all knowing atheist says there is no God. How do you then establish truth? Is truth established by your subjective viewpoint? Is it established by the subjective viewpoint of a scientist? Does a group of subjective scientists get to decide what truth is? What is their ultimate reference point. What is yours? Do you have one that is objective? Is it absolute?

My problem with this whole MT discussion is this: "why would a loving God refuse to comfort or respond in any way to this woman?" It does not seem possible to me. Why would He not reveal himself to this woman who was doing such good work for Him? It seems cruel, not the actions of a loving God. Everytime I have gone to God for anything, He has ALWAYS responded to me in some way. (It has not always been in the way I expected.) What kind of father would not answer the cries of his child? I don't think MT's "dark night of the soul" had anything to with God abandoning MT, it had to do with her being unable to sense His presence. Perhaps she was depressed. Perhaps she was looking for Him to reveal Himself in a paricular way (and of course we can't command God to do that.) We will never know why MT felt the way she did, but we have to understand that it wasn't God who left her for 50 years, He was obviously standing right there beside her the whole time, she just couldn't see Him.

Messiah Time,

Deliver A Messiah, "Mistaken Identity" by Agron Belica brings forth an elaborative examination of who was put on the cross. Many theories suggest that the son of Mary (aka Jesus Christ) was not the person placed on the cross, but someone other than Jesus Christ himself.

The author takes you through an examination paving ways of new insight of who might have been put on the cross.

To contribute to the present work, the author investigated and researched to seek the truth about the assumptive facts leading up to what people of Christendom believe to be the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

The Bible and the Koran are the main resources used as references formally presented in use of persuasive arguments and theories of why the author strongly does not believe that the son of Mary was killed nor crucified.

The author has made every effort to be as unbiased and objective in presenting the facts and interpreting the events in this present work. The author is not trying to stir up controversy, but only wishes to lead people towards what might be considered the truth about the events believed about the crucifixion.

The author strongly believes that the prevailing powers during that era have camouflaged the truth. The cover-up of the crucifixion with a false pretext was to lead the masses of people in the past and at present to believe, that the son of Mary was really crucified, by the leading elite that was influenced by the Jewish religious hierarchy at that time.

I find it difficult to believe that Christ had meant to send good people to Hell for not believing that he was of the divine, when some of these very people relegated to Hell for not believing that Christ is Lord, live exactly as Christ' words had asked them to.
Something is wrong. The Christian faith I believe cannot be predicated on an ultimatum:
Believe or go to hell!
Jeff

"Salvation comes to those who believe in Christ."
I do not believe in Christ, nor in this "salvation." Neither do billions of other ppl. What do you believe your loving God will do to us?

"Our confidence is in Christ, not in ourselves. We are weak; He is strong. We fluctuate; He is constant. We cannot trust our feelings nor our emotional state."
Pity. You should have confidence in yourself. You are strong, and you can control your feelings and emotional state! You can think for yourself and trust yourself! If I can do it, so can you.

Atheism has set me free and made me a better person. It can do the same for you.

Axeldc,

Isn't the conclusion of the doubt process is as important and as intelligent as the doubt process itself? Her intelligence has led her to think that there is something terribly wrong with the christian faith. Don't you think? She was "awarded" the sainthood by the vatican even though deep in herself she didn't believe. Do you consider this hypocricy or intelligent on her part? Thanks.

Doubting is a sign of intelligence. Telling people to ignore their doubts is telling people not to think about their lives and belief systems. Mother Theresa's ability to question her own belief system was an indication of great intelligence that questions conclusions and requires evidence for assertions. The people who have listened to their doubts are the ones who have changed society.

I dont know if I would trust anything Dr. Mohler has to say about anything thelogical or not. This is a man who recently said that if "we do find a gene that is responsible that causes homosexuaility we should have it Changed."

I dont think he really knows anything and He has an agenda. It is furnished by the Christain Coalition.....bad news......

Mr Nohler said:

"Trust Christ, Not Feelings"

But that's exactly what Teresa was doing! She trusted Jesus but couldn't find this working for her. May be she should have trusted the Father, not Jesus. That's Jesus' teachings, to trust the Father in heaven. Why is it always the case that the church teachings are at odd with what Jesus said? Anybody else sees this problem or is it just me!? Jesus himself worshipped God, the father in heaven. Why do you always try to replace that concept with other concepts that niether supported by Jesus nor supported by the bible? Jesus teaches you to pray to God and you ask people to pray to Jesus! Does this make sense to you? May be Teresa tried hard and reached the same conclusion as mine...

To summarize:

Mr. Mark:

The Bible says XYZ.

Others:

The Bible does not say XYZ.

Mr. Mark:

It doesn't matter what the Bible says because it's a book of fable and fantasy.

I too suspect that Mother Theresa was living with depression. But if pride and self-righteousness were the primary cause of depression, we would ALL be depressed. Of course she must have had those faults, because all humans have them. Her depression probably had a biochemical cause.

I have lived with depression my entire adult life, but it rarely caused me to have doubts, because I was taught from the beginning of my Christian walk that my faith was not grounded in my feelings. It didn't matter whether or not I could "feel" God; my faith was based on what I believed to be the facts.

Since I cannot see Mother Theresa's heart, I cannot judge her faith. If the Catholic church finds it necessary to elevate some Christians above others and has to judge their hearts in order to do so, then so be it. I will simply quote the book of James: "Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds."

Don't our feelings tell us to trust Christ when we first became Christians?

Dr. Mohler,
Thank you very much for being one of the very few leaders that dare to stand for the CHRISTIAN TRUTH, no matter how politically incorrect that could seem in this postmodern relativist era.
Teresa's was a FALSE GOSPEL, as simple as that.
Unfortunately, she was made into an icon. By the wrong people and with the evil purposes we all can infer.
Was she a good example of what the whole Word of God teaches about Christianity? I'm afraid she was not.
Was she a woman that tried to help the poor? Yes. As many, many others.

Of course Christians experience doubts and loss of faith at times, but in Mother Theresa's case I can't forget that she denied Christ in the most essential way, by teaching that people can get to God without Christ, through other religions. She did wonderful works of mercy but in all her compassionate care she refused to preach the gospel of Christ to any of her charges, saying that there are many ways to God and it would be wrong to impose hers on anyone. I can't help but think that this was so dishonoring to the Lord that her failure of faith was merely a reflection of the tragic fact that she didn't belong to Him.

"The Vatican has said, "Such moments of "weakness" are in fact "the proof of the greatness of faith of Blessed Mother Teresa and take nothing away from her holiness".

What if it's *not* a 'moment of weakness?'

What if it was...

A human life?

Dear OPN -

Thanks for your - I guess? - kind words.

Uh...you link to the Answers in Genesis website? You're kidding, right? Why inject idiocy and pseudo-science into what should be a respectable discussion?

Well, turnabout is fair play. You may wish to visit this site:

www.noanswersingenesis.org.au

It is clear that Dr. Mohler has never read any of Mother Teresa's own writings, nor the book "Mother Teresa: Come Be My Light". If he had, he would realize that she had a profound faith in Christ and that all of her good works stemmed from this faith. She just wanted to be a pencil in the hand of God writing a love letter to the world.

It is also clear that he has never read Catholic news coverage and relies solely on secular media. The purpose of the new book is to further her cause toward sainthood, not question her faith. It was compiled by the Postulator of the Cause of Canonization for Mother Teresa (i.e. the person responsible for presenting evidence of her holiness to the Vatican.

In a press release, he wrote that her "experience unveiled in the book is her identification with the poorest of the poor she served. She came to understand that the “darkness” was the “spiritual side of her work.” She was sharing in their sense of being “unloved, unwanted and uncared for,” which she described as the greatest poverty in the world of today."

The Vatican has said, "Such moments of "weakness" are in fact "the proof of the greatness of faith of Blessed Mother Teresa and take nothing away from her holiness".

Finally, her suffering should make us ask the question, "Why did Jesus have to suffer and die?". We know he had to die for our sins, but why did he have to suffer? If we truly seek to understand Mother Teresa's suffering (along with great saints like St. Paul of the Cross, St. Jeanne de Chantal, St. Vincent de Paul, St. John Vianney, and St. Therese of Lisieux) then we will draw closer to Christ.

Personally, I just think the blurb up front of this article is bassackwards: here we have someone who *did not* "trust Christ" who was acting out of *feelings,* (self-destructive sounding ones at that, but feelings, nonetheless,)

...not "Trusting Christ" but trying to *force matters.*

Trying to do the right thing the only way she knew how.

That's human.

Trying to claim her as a further example of why people should torment themselves with abusive religious ideas, I think, denigrates her human courage... and, I hope she showed, despite her disbelief, ...human caring.

I mean, heck.

She may have been crying inside about feeling abandoned by your God... I question why even in death ir was unacceptable to her to tell the truth *about* her feelings.

I wouldn't figure it's your God that 'abandoned' her.

Or that she went through all that to validate the beliefs of others who told her, 'Keep nobly suffering for what we say you must believe.'

When you think of it, that's the same kind of thinking that put people in a place of 'needing' her in the first place.

Maybe this is just about people.

Dear Reverend Mohler,

Your comments are most insightful, but please be advised that the Catholic Church is not reviewing the writings of Mother Teresa because we are "worried" about her salvation. The Church has a stansard of "heroic" sanctity that must be met in order for a person to be recognized as an exemplary Christian, a person whose life can be studied and imitated, for Scripture says through the mouth of St Paul, "1Cr 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also [am] of Christ"

When the man asked Jesus,"Will many be saved?" Jeaus rebuked the man mildly by not even answering his question but by rather changing the subject and replied "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for on that day many will try to enter the kingdom but will not be strong enough."

The Catholic perception is not of an instantaneous flash of irrevocable grace but rather of a processional transformation... one that can be sabotaged at any time by a rebellious act of the will.

Be that as it may, we all "judge" by our own standards, but let us all strive sincerely to attain to the one truth that is manifest in Jesus Christ.

Mark said:

"At the least, I would hope that OPN would concede that there's a basis for my reading and that I didn't make it up out of thin air".

I wasn't going to respond again but I wanted you to realize that I did not think you came up with it out of thin air. I simply stated it was (quite possibly) the worst commentary on the subject I have heard.

That being said, you provided specifics in your defense with your second response. I applaud your conviction and research on the matter.

We can argue circle, sphere, ball, globe, two-dimensional, three-dimensional, chuwg, etc. all day long, but I fear this post has been hijacked enough.

Your argument seemed to be similar to Paul H. Seely's and for that reason I have provided an appropriate link.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v14/i3/flat_earth.asp

Mark, I do appreciate the interaction. Thank you!

This truly will be my last comment. You may have the last word.

God Bless and we'll keep you in our prayers!

I'm not sure I agree with this. We should be wary of our emotions, but cultivate our spiritual feelings. Jesus promised he would send the comforter, or the Holy Spirit. Recognizing feelings of the spirit as manifestations of God is very important to increasing faith.
The feelings I have of the spirit are a source of incredible peace and faith.

Jeremy II -

Thanks for your comments.

As I mentioned earlier, there are over 70 Bible verses that postulate a flat earth. I'm not hung up on the verse in Isaiah, I thought we were having a dialogue about this *particular* verse, dissecting it as it were, to make our respective points. In fact, my responses were directed at OPN who opined that my reading of these verses was - in his words - "...(quite possibly) the worst commentary I have ever read." I hope that I have disencumbered him of that perception. At the least, I would hope that OPN would concede that there's a basis for my reading and that I didn't make it up out of thin air.

At the end of the day, it matters little from my perspective what Isaiah meant or didn't mean as the Bible is book of fable and fantasy. We're truly arguing over the number of angels dancing on that pin head, or over the number of rooms there are in Santa's workshop.

I freely admit that I don't enjoy these exchanges as much as I used to, which is why I only rarely post here these days.

Our exchange was fun, but in the context of what's important to my life, it will probably last me for at least a few months. I don't obsess about these things. How can one?

Big on ya...

I appreciate the open dialogue because too often we can have too much infighting amongst Christians. But I guess that's the way family is, isn't it?

UCCER, I won't even pretend to know God's mind because His ways are higher than ours. amen.

But I, myself, because I am so desiring to please Him in all of my ways, search the scriptures because I cannot trust man necessarily to show me the way. Man does unfortunately fall short of the Glory of God. amen. and woman.

Scripture is the only thing that I know that does not fail. It is the only thing that has been the guiding force besides God's Holy Spirit that has kept Christianity alive. When man gets in a disagreement scripture settles it.

The interpretation is probably where we get the discord. And since it is given to man to be able to interpret it for himself....well...I guess it explains all of our differences.

Love is esteemed most in the Bible. This is true. And perhaps if we were the hands and feet for Jesus the way we ought to be like Mother Teresa was and did leave the judging to God we would be nicer with each other.

But because we are different and do have different gifts we ought not discount the one who desires to remind us what God's word has to say. Afterall it is the origin of our faith. In the beginning was the word and the word became flesh...

There should be balance and compassion for those who are driven by the word and for those who choose its subtleties.

For if we are truly Christ's, and having a relationship with Christ we should be able to trust that by His Holy Spirit, He will bring us into a right place with Him.

God should be allowed to have His perfect work be done.

Mark, again, you are doing the same thing your opponents on the other side are doing: co-opting a prooftext (Isaiah 40:22) to promote your ideology (are you familiar with the phrase, "prooftexting"?)

If you insist on disregarding the entirety of the passage (Isaiah 40:12-31, which, as a whole, is talking about the difference between man and God, and clearly NOT the geometric shape of the earth), I suppose I have nothing more to say to you on the subject.

As the topic here is supposed to be doubt, here's my last word on it: We all could stand to exercise a little more SELF-doubt from time to time, instead of clinging to our absolute certainty that we're correct. We might all find a little much-needed humility.

S. Jane,

Again, I appreciate your thoughtful response. I will just add this.

I think it is wrong for fundamentalists to say that the difference between conservative and liberal churches is that conservative churches are biblical whereas liberal churches are not. I find this characterization, which is repeated so frequently that many would mistake it as fact, to be insulting.

Liberal churches are as serious about the Bible as conservative churches. We do have a somewhat different interpretation. We feel that God is a loving God and that, as per the great commandment, above all we must love one another. This means that the worst sin of all is to judge others. Rather we are commanded to be humble before God.

Dear Jeremy II -

Thank you for making my point.

In CONTEXT, Isaiah is speaking of a flat earth. The curtain and the tent references support this.

As far as your citing the world "horizon" - that is a new interpretation that is not necessarily tied to the root word.

As far as god's vantage point - again, flat earth works: god sits above looking down through his curtain to the grasshoppers hopping on his flat circle.

As far as Isaiah giving a lesson in astronomy - astronomy is a concept that Isaiah wasn't privy to. Indeed, the Bible says the stars are little twinkling lights set in the firmament (dome) of heaven that can fall to the earth (wear maximum sun block when that happens!).

Why not just admit the Bible got it wrong? I could even accept an explanation that said that god realized that the earth wasn't flat, but he didn't really care if Isaiah and others wrote that it was. It didn't matter to him. THAT, I could accept. But gerrymandering convoluted explanations onto something that - in context - is quite clear seems to me to be an exercise in futility.

If I may give insight into a fundamentalist. It is the concern that God's word might get watered down or changed and loose its meaning.

Its hard to read something that goes so contrary to the word of God, which is a Christian's guide for living, and not say something to correct it.

Liberalism in its very meaning says to take liberty with something, to give it maybe more meaning or even less. While someone who is conservative says they cannot change what to them is written in stone (no pun intended).

God's word says that though the flower fades and the grass whithers the word of God will stand forever. It doesn't change.

What you may deem as attacks, I pray you may see as correction. And believe you me I read my Bible to make sure I do some correcting right back if something is said amiss.

But please understand that while someone may correct a stance on a Biblical interpretation that it is not in anyway shape or form an attack on one's faith.

I can speak this with sincere confidence as a Baptist that we consider our faith a very personal relationship with our Lord. And it is the very reason why Dr. Mohler ended his essay by saying that he could not judge the condition of Mother Teresa's faith. It is because we can't, only God can judge our faith whether it is weak, strong or non-existent. And to tell you the truth I'm okay with that. I'd rather God be my judge than man.

Note on "Chuwg" (Mark & OPN et al):

NEITHER side can legitimately hijack this verse and prooftext it to make it say what they want.

This little word (also transliterated as "hug") means nothing more than "circle". Therefore, it falls to the CONTEXT of the passage to determine its precise meaning according to usage (Isaiah 40).

Once again, it is clear from the CONTEXT of this passage that Isaiah is making NO commentary on the geometry of the earth, whether flat OR round. (Why would he? To suggest that Isaiah is giving a treatise on astronomy is ridiculous).

The meaning that best fits the context is "horizon" (which, from any vantage point, ancient or modern, is irrefutably a circle). His figurative point: God has a verticle vantage point that gives him a special perspective that mere men do not, being small and finite. This neither suggests that Isaiah thought the earth was round nor flat. It simply uses the universal observation that a person's vantage point in all directions is a flat, circular horizon, while God's, being divine, is above it, giving him special knowledge. We can't decide that interpretation--we must allow Isaiah's CONTEXT to do so.

Bottom line: we humans are limited in knowledge, while God is not. He sees all. And given Isaiah's point, I think the direction of the whole discussion is ironic.

S.Jane,

First of all, I very much appreciate your response to my WWJD question. I very much agree with your answer. It gives me hope for the SBC.

To answer your questions, the SBC is in lockstep with the conservative wing of the Republican party. Much of the rhetoric in the current immigration debate on talk radio borders on pure racism. For Americans to consider themselves superior in the eyes of God is the ultimate arrogance.

Regarding aggression and violence, the SBC supports the invasion and occupation of a nation that posed no threat to us.

As far as hatred of other denominations, whenever a liberal theologian posts to these board, the fundamentalists always attack, saying that because liberal churches are "unbiblical", we are losing membership and such. Well, I am getting tired of being bullied by the fundamentalist pigs. This is one liberal Christian who is fighting back. I want to point out that it is the SBC and other fundanmentalist organizations that are unbiblical.

It is so easy to denounce someone else's faith. Mohler does it all the time as per his posting against the ELCA. Fundamentalists are always denouncing the faith of other Christians that they don't see as "true Christians" in a way that I consider hateful. I see Mohler's post here as a hateful attack on Mother Teresa, one of the most revered Christians in recent history. Shame.

Dear Jeremy II -

You make valid points, yet even in context of your appreciation of the Bible, it comes down to opinion. In your case, "understand(ing) any text according to the author's intent."

How does one discern the author's intent? More importantly, isn't the "author" of the Bible god himself?

I'll tell you what would have convinced me that god was behind the writing of the Bible - a single mention of marsupials or a single mention of micro organisms. Surely if the Biblical god is omniscient, he would have known that he had created creatures like the kangaroo, wombat and koala. Surely, a god who gave man dominion over the Earth would realize that man would have a hell of a time dominating the micro organisms. After all, if he created it all, why not mention such creatures in his magnum opus? The Bible mentions unicorns and fire-breathing dragons numerous times, but the marsupials go wanting. Why?

Speaking of the marsupials - IF they were on Noah's ark, how did they leave Ararat and localize themselves in water-locked Australia? Or is that all a metaphor as well?

The SBC is not the topic of this forum. But since you brought it up.

Speaking as a Baptist who is of Hispanic descent and a person of color, I'm just wondering where you get your info. I have never ever felt any recrimination from Baptists, ever.

Violence and aggression??? I've never seen it.

Just because someone doesn't agree with another person's way of believing ie. the mormons, and Jehovah witnesses does not mean they hate them.

wwjd? He would do today as He did then. He would preach that we should love God with all our heart, love one another as we love ourselves, to go out into the world and preach the gospel to everyone, and he that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but to also tell those who believes not shall be damned (meaning will not have a place with God), and to teach believers to observe all things that He has commanded us.

He doesn't say that it would be easy, instead He says that it is a cross we must bare. He also tells us that if we are hated it is because it is Him in us that is hated.

And yet in spite of all of this and how hard Christianity is to sometimes follow it has survived. It has survived and even inspired people like Mother Teresa to sacrificially give of themselves who though was not perfect herself but like us all fall short of God's glory more often then we'd care to remember.

The guiding principles that you speak of are all scriptual. They are in the Bible to which every Christian espouses to whether they are Catholic, or Protestant. Though some more than others.

Dr. Mohler does not question Mother Teresa's salvation at all, or whether she was a Christian or not but rather that she may have trusted her feelings too much.

Though sometimes we do not feel the presence of our Lord it doesn't mean that He isn't there and that is what Dr. Mohler is trying to say.

Jason,

Basically, the Southern Baptist Convention has become a fund-raising arm of the Republican Party. Any leader considered remotely "liberal" has been purged.

The SBC supports violence and aggression in direct contradiction to Jesus' teaching. They also consider Americans to be superior to other human beings, particarly Hispanics. This again directly contradicts Jesus' wish that they may all be one. Finally, the SBC hates many different types of faith organizations that differ from their Biblical interpretations, including Roman Catholics, mainline Protestants, Jehovah's witnesses, eastern Orthodox, and Mormons.

Hate, not love, is the name of the game at the SBC. WWJD?

Mark (et al),

I respectfully beg to differ. While I agree with "the first Jeremy" that the main point of Scripture is not to idolize the words themselves, I cannot agree with you that each person has his own right to subjectively decide how he or she will take various statements found in the Bible. Readers have an obligation to try and understand any text according to the author's intent (in this case, Daniel). Otherwise, we might just as well give up reading it and simply rewrite it to make it say whatever we want it to.

For example, Mark, if I chose to publicly claim your words on this forum are all "metaphors", you would rightly accuse me of misrepresenting you. In the same way, if a writer uses an illustration (e.g. Daniel 4), then explicitly narrates to his audience what the illustration means a few paragraphs later, it is disingenuous for us to claim that it is meant to be taken literally.

Which brings me back to the issue of doubt. I believe much of the rancor coming out of these discussions arises from fear. When the "other side" raises doubts in our position, we tend not to deal honestly with facts, but to deny them or twist them to fit our position. (This flat-earth discussion seems to abound with examples).

So, let's deal with the real claims of science, but let's also agree to deal with what's REALLY written in the Bible, paying attention to the historical context and setting of the authors. A person using a Bible search program to piece together random verses and quotes from different parts of the Bible and seizing upon decapitated bits of phrases here and there to bolster his agenda can pretty much come up with anything he wants. Doing the hard work of Biblical research to discover what the authors were actually trying to communicate, and dealing honestly with what we find, is another thing altogether.

This guy teaches at a seminary??? (what is a protestant seminary anyway...with guiding principles such as Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, and Priesthood of Believers, what's they point? They all end up preaching private interpretation anyway!) This is one of the most un-academic written works I've seen published in a long time...i guess that's what happens when you have editors who edit and publish on topics they know nothing about...shame on you Newsweek! As far as Dr. Mohler is concerned; Mother Teresa is well on her way to Sainthood...I'd bet her faith (much like Jesus') has done more good for others then yours ever could! Let's see how many prayers are written in your name postmortem

This guy teaches at a seminary??? (what is a protestant seminary anyway...with guiding principles such as Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, and Priesthood of Believers, what's they point? They all end up preaching private interpretation anyway!) This is one of the most un-academic written works I've seen published in a long time...i guess that's what happens when you have editors who edit and publish on topics they know nothing about...shame on you Newsweek! As far as Dr. Mohler is concerned; Mother Teresa is well on her way to Sainthood...I'd bet her faith (much like Jesus') has done more good for others then yours ever could! Let's see how many prayers are written in your name postmortem

Dear OPN:

You may be interested to know that the root of the Hebrew word "chuwg" , ie: circle, means "to encircle, encompass, describe a circle, draw round, make a circle." These are two-dimensional definitions for the word chuwg, ie: circle.

While some might argue that there is no specific Hebrew word for "sphere," there is a Hebrew word for "ball." Interesting enough, Isaiah uses the word "ball" in 22:18 - "“The Lord is about to hurl you away violently, my man. He will seize firm hold of you, whirl you round and round, and throw you like a ball (Hebrew: duwr) into the wide land."

So, a word that very much describes a sphere (duwr) was available, but Isaiah in 40:22 opts to use the two-dimensional Hebrew word for circle (lest you say I'm stacking the deck, I realize that some Bible translations use the word "duwr" as "turban" instead of "ball," but it's my understanding that most Rabbis believe the word ball is the appropriate translation).

BTW - the fact that the prophet absolutely intends the word "chuwg" to be interpreted two-dimensionally is confirmed at the end of the verse where he says, "...who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in."

You set up a tent on a flat surface. Is it possible to "spread" a tent upon, say, a geodesic dome? And how about a curtain? We can all imagine the use of a curtain as the ancient Hebrews would have known it - as a basically two-dimensional piece of cloth that separated things. That's the job of a curtain, to separate one area from another. Now, if you wanted a piece of cloth that you would wrap around, say, a sphere or ball (duwr), that would be a blanket, not a curtain.

Finally - why would you assume that the meaning of the word "circle" has changed between ancient times and now? Everyone back then knew what a circle was, and they all knew what a ball was, just like today.

Your turn...

I agree that works without Christ is nothing, most of all to Him. He said to those who did works in His name to get far from for they never knew Him. They did their works apart from Him not as a result of having a relationship with Him.

But the question is, again I say, where are our works at all?

It must also be realized that Dr. Mohler did not question Mother Teresa's salvation but where she was placing her trust. Was it in feelings? Or was it in the knowledge that though we may not see the hand of God, it doesn't mean that He isn't there.

Her salvation and motives for service are not in question, at least by many people, including myself.

I'm just thinking the question we have to ask ourselves is whether we pick up the torch and allow Christ to do the same thing through us too.

Doorman,
Though I believe in God, I guess I have missed the scientific conclusion/absolute proof that the universe "is in fact finite." Isn't that still a questionable, theoretical conclusion?

The center of a Christians life must be Christ. Love must be Christ centered. Any old love, any old working of love is not what Christ has called His followers to extend. Why is there a question as to the motivation in Mother Theresa's life as to good works? Possibly because she did not make it obvious to whom they were done and who the good works were to honor, to glorify? If so,one thing that could be learned from her is just this. Motivation of love is the key. Laying my life down in serving others gains nothing, without Christ's love which never fails. The love of Jesus Christ compels believers to confess His glory in the works of their lives. Make it clear whom we serve in sincerity and truth, who we are serving, just as Joshua proclaimed, "as for me and my household we will serve the Lord." Christians serve Christ not a religion. Christianity is a relationship with Christ, obeying Him because you love Him. He works within this relationship. Mountains of good works done outside this relationship=nothing. John 15:5.

Mark,

Your reasoning regarding the absoluteness of science is infantile. All that Science can 'prove' is really those things that can be observed. The observable universe is knowable only in that we can create mechanisms to observe the physical phenomena of the universe. All our observations are based upon cause/effect relationships which inherently are constrained to the time constraints of our universe (though the time relationships may vary based upon distance/speed etc... they don't cease to exist) Based upon this way of knowing, Science itself MUST state that there was a first cause that is scientifically unknowable. That isn't merely religious truth, that is truth based upon scientific principles of cause/effect. If all effects can be traced back to their cause, and those causes back to that which caused them ad infinitum, by definition, there must have been a first cause, since the universe is in FACT finite, not infinite. If you respond to refute this, please do so using only scientific principles.

It is just so easy to condemn the faith of others. In contrast, it can be demanding and difficult to live a life of faith yourself. Of course, with faith in Jesus comes great joy, but that presence is not always felt at all times in life. In those darker times, even faithful people can experience doubt.

It is so easy to condemn the faith of others. Yet that's what fundamentalist pigs like Mohler and Colson seem to enjoy doing most. They need to repent and humble themselves before the loving God.

Mark said:

"Notice that the prophet says the Earth is a CIRCLE. A circle is a two-dimensional object. It is a FLAT object. A SPHERE is a three-dimensional object. In no way does Isaiah infer that the Earth is not flat".

WOW! That is (quite possibly) the worst commentary I have ever read.

Scripture intreprets Scripture. When Isaiah states "the circle of the earth" he is implying a sphere. How can we know this for certain? The earth IS a sphere!

Unless, of course, you are suggesting Isaiah was "lucky" when he combined circle and earth in the same sentence.

The last word is all yours...
God Bless!

George then the question is that if the world is not seeing evidence of Christ in us being manifested by our love for others, then is it because we are stifling Christ?

So many Christians will go for the salvation experience and give their life to Christ but will not allow Jesus to work through them as Mother Teresa allowed Jesus to do through her.

It is easier to love those who love you but harder still to love those who don't. And yet we fail at this very miserably. Myself included. In fact a new neighbor moved in down the block and I have yet though its been several months I have not even so much as said hi to them.

Faith without works is dead. And while Christs spirit in me compels me to good works, it should be more than compulsion but indeed it should be my very breath to do Christs good work unto others on His behalf. I must let Christ's spirit live through me. We must. And it should cause others to marvel as they did at Mother Teresa because it wasn't really her that was incredulous but Christ.

And yes it was hard work to the point that she took no rest from it, and in which case probably led her to feel the way that she did. Even Jesus went to the mountain top to be alone with the Father.

Let me take this opportunity to answer some of my sparing partners:

To OPN:
I've argued your Isaiah point with the JWs. The verse you cite reads: "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in"

Notice that the prophet says the Earth is a CIRCLE. A circle is a two-dimensional object. It is a FLAT object. A SPHERE is a three-dimensional object. In no way does Isaiah infer that the Earth is not flat.

To Jeremy:
A skeptic is always doubting. You make the mistake of assuming that your religious beliefs are based in truth. Indeed, that they constitute absolute truth. My position is that I'll go with that which HAS been proven and remain skeptical about the rest. There's plenty of mystery yet to uncover in the natural order of things without involving the deus ex machina of the supernatural.

There's no reason to give more weight to the probability that a god was involved in anything than there would be to give weight to a belief that space aliens were responsible for anything. The conceit of the religionists is exactly that, ie: that they can aver as truth platitudes and fantasies for which there is not a shred of evidence.

As far as the passage in Daniel goes - if comes down to who decides which parts of the Bible are to be read metaphorically, doesn't it? As there's no consensus on any given verse, my point is at least as valid as yours, isn't it? But I only cited Daniel because it is a pretty well-known verse. There are others that could be cited (Revelation, Matthew).

To Trent:
Indeed, the majority of historians don't argue the point of whether or not Jesus was an historic figure. I would wager that most atheists don't argue the point, being more interested in the basic question of whether or not god exists. That said, there are historians who do doubt that Jesus existed. I doubt that there are any historians who would argue that Julius Ceasar didn't exist.

To those upset that I'm "at it again": not to worry. It's only because I have a bit of time on my hands this week. I'll be gone before you can say "Larry Craig resigned!"

God knows what was in Mother Teresa's heart as good was manifest in her life. God's good is all that will stand for any of us when He comes. Possibly faith in her life did not save her, satan may of won, God only knows, but what satan purposes for evil, our God works to the good, very good. She is sealed, her fate is determined. God knows the verdict. God alone can miraculously work good out of disobedience, sin. Followers of the Mother Teresa way can repent of their ways and find the only way to heaven, Jesus Christ. Christ's followers live following and good is produced by who they follow, Jesus. Phillipians 2:12-13 shows this relationship of lordship. "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." we do the "work out" part, cultivate,i.e. pull weeds, make the furrows, prune, be a farmer. God "works" miracle. God makes it grow. God works the miracle, we obey God submitted to Him as Lord, the miracle of our salvation, the work of God is done in us. What comes through us are the good works He alone can produce. The good works we want in our lives. The good only God can do. My good works are bad, God's good works are very good. I get the point, I pray she did also. I pray the difference is seen by all who read about testimony in her life. God's good work in us is all that will stand when He comes.

The reason that Mother Teresa has gotten such world recognition is because she was so different from the world.

She was even different from the ordinary Christian who if we were all more like she was this world would be a much better place to live.

We must remember that though our Lord did say there was a place for those that do not believe he didn't get mad at them. In fact, most of our Lord's anger was directed quite often to those who claimed to believe in God. Pharisees and Sadducees and constantly the apostles when their faith wasn't strong.

Humility was a significant trademark of Mother Teresa's which may have been taken too far and may have led to her depression/doubt. But it was also the trademark of Christ and His followers. Paul the apostle called himself the chiefest of sinners.

Christians, we need to look different from the world if we are to draw others to Christ and the kingdom of God.

Believe it or not love towards others despite their differences and beliefs, is different in this world.

Why, our first feelings during the experience of salvation is disbelief that Jesus could love a sinner like we are and still want us.

Mother Teresa also wanted the unloved, the different, the cast aways to the point that she was totally used up for Christ.

Can we Christians say the same?

Paul:

That is a very good question. I think they helped answer that on Star Trek.
But in the world of Star Wars, it's called "the force".

Ok, for all the people that seem to want to attack Mr. Mark.
He makes good points, but then again, so do some of the ones who try to refute his logic. If he thinks he is 100% right, then let him think that. I am sure the believers are absolutely positive that there is a God, and that Jesus is the savior.
So who is right and who is wrong? No way to tell. But I will tell youthis. Scientists are about 10 years away from creating artificial life. There goes that whole something from nothing argument the Christians keep bringing on us when we ask where God came from.....

Same arguments, same responses..won't matter in 20 years. But hey, I'll have fun till it goes away.

Ohhhh, Its Mr. Mark, the fundie atheist, yeaaahh

best reflection on protestant understanding, that i,as a catholic,has ever read in a nutshell!

By the way, I see Mark is at it again. I should point out that few, if any, credible historians doubt that a man called Jesus lived in the area the Bible says He did during the time the Bible says He did. What they disagree about is who He was and what He did.

Paul,

Your post pre-supposes life on other planets. From a Christian perspective, there may be... and there may not be. Either way, it really is beside the point. "There is no under name in Heaven given among men by which we might be saved". Is it possible that persons (for want of a better word) on other planets are fallen and thus in need of a Savior? Possibly, but I would think that's beyond the purview of most Christians to answer.

Christianity seems to take the position that humanity finally got the truth and a savior when Christ began preaching. His preaching occurred in a small area on a small planet. This planet revolves around one of hundreds of billions of stars in our own galaxy - one of hundreds of billions of galaxies.

All of this took place after the universe had been in existence for more than thirteen billion years. This whole story seems to say that God's focus is just on the earth. One star out of more than a sextillion is the reason for all creation? If not, is there a Christ on every planet with intelligent life? If there are other saviors, how can Jesus be God's only son?

This is all very confusing.

In response to those who responded to me:

I am not saying that studying the Bible is unimportant. I am saying that the Bible is not where we should place our faith. Too many times, we, as Evangelicals, claim things for the Bible that it never claims for itself. We elevate it to a status that it never elevates itself to. In fact, we have added to what it means to be a Christian to include that one must believe certain things about the Bible to be saved. No longer is it as simple as "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." It now means believing a whole list of things., and if you differ on something like Hell, you are not a true Christian.

And this is why I think study of the Bible is important. It should be the final authority on what we believe. The Creeds of the church are good and have authority, as do Christian scholars, but all of it should be tested by the Bible. But faith is not to rest in anything but Messiah Jesus. You don't have to have faith in facts. They are true whether you believe them to be true or not. But, as the author of Hebrews states, "Faith if the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Mm, incidentally...

Any thorough reader will immediately recognize the context of Daniel's tree (Dan. 4:11). The VERY verse before (10), Daniel denotes his illustration of the world-dominating tree as a VISION. In vs. 22 of that chapter, he identifies the "tree" as none other than King Nebuchadnezzar (whose existence, incidentally, has been independantly verified by modern archaeology--one of many). Therefore, when Daniel suggests that the tree was visible to the whole earth, he is contextually referring to the Babylonian empire, which stretched from Persia in the east to the borders of Egypt in the west, and whose conquests were known throughout the ancient world. (Daniel is making no geographical comment on earth's shape).

WHO isn't reading carefully enough?

To all those debating whether Columbus' discovery was science I would suggest you read Isaiah 40:22. Isaiah tells us the earth is round 2500 years before Columbus set sail. Why do you think he went for it! You can make imaginary "scientific" arguments all you like; however, the existence and dating of OT text has never been (and never will be) disproved. That being said...How did Isaiah know the earth was round? God inspired his words.

Sorry for multiple postings--transmission error.

Sorry for multiple postings--transmission error.

The topic of this discussion is doubt.
We all put our confidence in something, believers and skeptics alike.

Question for Mr. Mark: Have you ever doubted the absoluteness of your skepticism, or has your confidence always been so adamant? Your certainty is astounding. Your faith in the Bible's inaccuracy is matchless--I've never met a Christian, Jew or Muslim who could so defiantly claim to be right, without the slightest whisp of doubt. You may be the most ardent believer I've ever met. How did a finite human being (like the rest of us) ever arrive at such 100% confidence?

Proving a universal negative such as you claim (i.e. "there is absolutely no proof that anything in the Bible is based on fact or history") is pretty next to impossible (I could give you scores of refutations to THAT remark in the book of Acts alone)--especially when modern archaeology, anthropology, etc. in just my lifetime have repeatedly bolstered many (though not all) Biblical accounts.

Better scale back your certainty just a tinge, Mark, unless you have a corner on some private information the rest of us haven't seen yet. Your skeptic's faith, alone, isn't enough to convince me.

The topic of this discussion is doubt.
We all put our confidence in something, believers and skeptics alike.

Question for Mr. Mark: Have you ever doubted the absoluteness of your skepticism, or has your confidence always been so adamant? Your certainty is astounding. Your faith in the Bible's inaccuracy is matchless--I've never met a Christian, Jew or Muslim who could so defiantly claim to be right, without the slightest whisp of doubt. You may be the most ardent believer I've ever met. How did a finite human being (like the rest of us) ever arrive at such 100% confidence?

Proving a universal negative such as you claim (i.e. "there is absolutely no proof that anything in the Bible is based on fact or history") is pretty next to impossible (I could give you scores of refutations to THAT remark in the book of Acts alone)--especially when modern archaeology, anthropology, etc. in just my lifetime have repeatedly bolstered many (though not all) Biblical accounts.

Better scale back your certainty just a tinge, Mark, unless you have a corner on some private information the rest of us haven't seen yet. Your skeptic's faith, alone, isn't enough to convince me.

While I respect your opinions and enjoy reading your blog I have to say, your comments in the matter of Mother Teresa are a little off. For my own part I am not much concerned about where she put her trust. It seems fairly obvious. I also find strange the notion that you trust in your trust and not in your faith. Either seems subjective. As I am sure you know even though many of your readers donot, the dark night of the soul is a experience shared in both the east and the west. And has been expressed in the writings of countless saints. I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian and like Catholics, and contrary to Protestant polemics we have all read the psalmist. "Truly my soul waits for God; From him comes my salvation". (psalm 62) I am sure even poor Mother Teresa understood that. Even without the help of the sons of the Reformation.

The topic of this discussion is doubt.
We all put our confidence in something, believers and skeptics alike.

Question for Mr. Mark: Have you ever doubted the absoluteness of your skepticism, or has your confidence always been so adamant? Your certainty is astounding. Your faith in the Bible's inaccuracy is matchless--I've never met a Christian, Jew or Muslim who could so defiantly claim to be right, without the slightest whisp of doubt. You may be the most ardent believer I've ever met. How did a finite human being (like the rest of us) ever arrive at such 100% confidence?

Proving a universal negative such as you claim (i.e. "there is absolutely no proof that anything in the Bible is based on fact or history") is pretty next to impossible (I could give you scores of refutations to THAT remark in the book of Acts alone)--especially when modern archaeology, anthropology, etc. in just my lifetime have repeatedly bolstered many (though not all) Biblical accounts.

Better scale back your certainty just a tinge, Mark, unless you have a corner on some private information the rest of us haven't seen yet. Your skeptic's faith, alone, isn't enough to convince me.

The topic of this discussion is doubt.
We all put our confidence in something, believers and skeptics alike.

Question for Mr. Mark: Have you ever doubted the absoluteness of your skepticism, or has your confidence always been so unassailable? Your certainty is astounding. Your faith in the Bible's inaccuracy is matchless--I've never met a Christian, Jew or Muslim who could so defiantly claim to be right, without the slightest whisp of doubt. You may be the most ardent believer I've ever met. How did a finite human being (like the rest of us) ever arrive at such 100% confidence?

Proving a universal negative such as you claim (i.e. "there is absolutely no proof that anything in the Bible is based on fact or history") is pretty next to impossible (I could give you scores of refutations to THAT remark in the book of Acts alone)--especially when modern archaeology, anthropology, geology, etc. in just my lifetime have repeatedly bolstered many (though not all) Biblical accounts.

Better scale back your certainty just a tinge, Mark, unless you have a corner on some private information the rest of us haven't seen yet. Your skeptic's faith, alone, isn't enough to convince me.

YNOT sez:
"Oh... and one more thing...the Bible does NOT say that the earth is flat. Kinda calls into question all your "research," doesn't it?"

Mr Mark:
You need to read your Bible. [blah, blah, blah]

Ynot says:
It's called a "figure of speech," just like today when we talk about sunrise and sunset. Now, the sun doesn't really rise and set, does it?

Just because the Bible doesn't say the earth is spherical, does not mean it says it is flat.

Mr. Mark,

As I read your post I notice that you continually make accusations of nothing of the Bible and the existence of Jesus being true. Yet, you yourself have no evidence for this. This is because your accusations are untrue. Since A.D. 30 all Jews recognize that a person named Jesus did exist and he did claim to be the son of God. All historians accept that Jesus the person did exist, the question is whether he was the Son of God. The Muslim religion who doesnt believe in the Diety of Christ still acknowledge that the person existed. Your arguments hold no truth or evidence. Let not your hardened heart blind you from the grace of the gospel.

YNOT sez:
"Oh... and one more thing...the Bible does NOT say that the earth is flat. Kinda calls into question all your "research," doesn't it?"

You need to read your Bible. There are over 70 verses that state/imply/indicate the earth is flat, from the "four corners" to "the circle" to Daniel's tree that grew so high it could be seen by the whole world (possible only only if the Earth is flat, impossible if the Earth is a sphere). From Genesis to Revelation, the Bible purports a flat Earth.

But this is only to be expected. Along with the Hebrews, the Egyptians and Babylonians also believed in a flat Earth. Biblical cosmology closely parallels the Sumero-Babylonian cosmology, and it may also draw upon Egyptian cosmology. One can't blame the ancients for conjecturing that the Earth was flat, but it's ingenuous to aver that the Bible ever stated that the Earth was anything but flat.

How about this: cite the Biblical verses that posit a spherical Earth (and please don't bother citing apologists like Henry Morris, Gerardus Bouw and Harold Armstrong who cite the same verses to support their claims that the Bible purports a spherical Earth that the flat-Earthers cite to aver that the Bible purports a flat Earth. That's a bit of a zero-sum game).

It's amazing how little the true believers know about the book they hold so dear.

It is not how sincere or strong the faith I possess that is salvific; it is the OBJECT of my faith.

Jesus declared that HE is the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE and that no one comes to the Father God except through faith in Him.

If I am trusting in my works, no matter how incredibly sacrificial as in the case of Mother Teresa, I fall short and I AM NOT SAVED!

To claim my good deeds are enough to save me is the travesty of all time because it would negate the meaning and worth of the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ.

Jesus saves, not my good works!

Good deeds will naturally flow from a life that belongs to Christ. But those good works are never salvific but deeds of gratitude for the great gift I've received.

Oh... and one more thing...the Bible does NOT say that the earth is flat. Kinda calls into question all your "research," doesn't it?

...absolutely non-existent. ...fable...

...lie...idiotic....

...childish nonsense... ...infantile ramblings...

...lose the battle... ...Luddites... desperately cling... fairy tales...

...myth evaporates...

Why? Because I said so!

Keith writes:

"Mr Mark, you provide no evidence for you sweeping statement. It holds no weight with me."

Er, the "evidence" needs to come from those who purport that the Bible is historical fact and that Jesus ever really existed. There is no "historical" source to confirm the existence of Jesus (third-party sources like Josephus, Pliny et al have all been absolutely discounted at this point). The historical/archaeological evidence for most of the Bible stories from the Exodus to the crucifixion of Jesus are absolutely non-existent. In fact, archaeology disproves almost every "historical" fable put forth in the Bible.

As far as the way physics and the cosmos work, well, science has put the lie to the Bible's idiotic accounts of such things, accounts that were written by men WITHOUT any inspiration or knowledge - divine or otherwise - outside of the inspiration they drew from their own eyesight/ear shot or the knowledge of contemporaneous received opinion.

You're welcome to believe such childish nonsense, but don't aver that such infantile ramblings constitute fact. Science long ago proved the Earth wasn't flat, but that shouldn't keep you from believing the Bible when it states that the Earth is flat.

You religionists remind me of the Oakland Raiders football team and their fans, a team and a fan base that clings to the motto "Just win, baby," even though they haven't won for 23 years.

Religion continues to lose the battle with reason. The only problem is that the religious Luddites continue to desperately cling to their fairy tales as if they held any meaning or insight whatsoever.

But, no problem. Reality marches on as myth evaporates.

See, there is hope in the world after all!

Douglas:

Ok, I may have chosen a poor word.

What do I offer that is convincing?
Only this. Look into the eyes of a child, and you will find all the happiness and faith you will ever need.

And I don't mean a kid above the age of 5.....toddlers and babies. They are full of faith and love. Faith and love for their parents.

But another answer is this, I offer cause and effect. Also Karma.

Keith:
You need to surround yourself with better people.

There is evidence that Mother Theresa's faith was in Christ, not feelings. Besides enduring for decades in the life she led, she wrote this:

Taken from pages 113 & 114 of
“My Life For The Poor” by Mother Theresa
Edited by Jose Luis Gonsalez-Balado and Janet N. Playfoot.

“This is Jesus to me:

The word made flesh.
The Bread Of Life
The Victim offered for our sins on the cross.
The Sacrifice offered at the Holy Mass for the sins of the world and mine.
The Word - to be spoken.
The Way - to be walked.
The Truth - to be told.
The Light - to be lit.
The Life - to be lived.
The Love - to be loved.
The Joy - to be shared.
The Sacrifice - to be offered.
The Peace - to be given.
The Bread Of Life - to be eaten.
The Hungry - to be fed.
The Thirsty - to be satisfied.
The Naked - to be clothed.
The Homeless - to be taken in.
The Sick - to be healed.
The Lonely - to be loved.
The Unwanted - to be wanted.
The Leper - to wash his wounds.
The Beggar - to give him a smile.
The Drunkard - to listen to him.
The Little One - to embrace him.
The Blind - to lead him.
The Dumb - to speak for him.
The Crippled - to walk with him.
The Drug Addict - to befriend him.
The Prostitute - to remove from danger and befriend her.
The Prisoner - to be visited.
The Old - to be served.

To me Jesus is my God.
Jesus is my spouse.
Jesus is my Life.
Jesus is my only Love.
Jesus is my all in all.
Jesus is my everything.

In my work, I belong to the whole world, but in my heart I belong to Christ.”

You can read another discussion at Shaun Groves' blog: http://www.shaungroves.com/shlog/comments/headline_mother_teresa_was_human/ .

Mr Mark, you provide no evidence for you sweeping statement. It holds no weight with me.

Russell D, I tried putting faith in myself and other people. Both failed miserably, so I keep my faith in Jesus.

Russell, with respect, you have differed with Dr. Mohler, but you have not rebutted him. His position is an accurate reflection of Judeo-Christian scriptural teachings, which are that faith, to be more than wishful thinking, must have a valid object. For Christians, the object of faith, which makes it saving faith, is the person and finished work of Christ, which are foretold by prophets and eyewitnesses in the scriptures. Perhaps you find the scriptures unconvincing. What do you offer that is convincing?

I can believe that for every drop of rain that falls a flower grows, but what is the object of that belief which validates it?

To all who wish to hear it, I am about to rebutt Mr. Mohler's claim:

Faith does not come from Christ.
Faith does not come from feelings.
Faith comes from within.
Faith is a part of people. Whether their faith is different, they still have faith, one way or the other. The only faith needed is faith in yourself and in mankind.

The true legacy of Mother Teresa is not doubt. Doubt is something all people of faith experience. The recent landslide of coverage into this supposed surprise over Mother Teresa's doubts and fears only, once again, reaffirm our ability to objectify and simplify those around us. Our world is simpler if Teresa is either 100% saint or a closet atheist. It makes our doubts and fears easier to bear if we can fabricate people who have completely overcome doubt. To doubt, though, and to fear is to be human and the product of seeing through a clouded mirror.

The truly remarkable aspect of Mother Teresa's doubt is the level of suffering it caused. It is a testament to the closeness with which she had once been graced and the clarity she had been once given that it caused her to suffer so to live what most would identify as a normal life. What is equally remarkable is her ability to persevere in what was an incredibly heart wrenching work. It is an impressive act of grace for the average believer to overcome doubt throughout the travails of a normal life, but for Teresa to maintain a ministry to children whose very existence challenges the beliefs of all theists, that is worth celebrating.

I see no need for revision in regards to the life of Mother Teresa simply because she proved to be human. Nor do I see any cause for a reproach because she shared in the doubts of humankind. Jesus Christ instructed us that we would know his followers by their fruit; that they would be known by their love for one another. Recent history can find few who exemplify this as Mother Theresa did. Her life is not one to spoil with the error of denominationalism. Our sister's life was too precious for squabbling brothers to use it as a weapon in their ongoing hostilities. It was too true an example of the grace of God to soil it by attempting to use it as a proof for either Protestant or Catholic dogma.

I am glad to be reminded that my faith is not based on feelings but on the fact of what Christ did for me. amen and amen.

I think we should also remember the difficult work with which M.T. was doing. She definitely walked in the shadow of death constantly. We forget that mission work can be a spiritual battle field.

"Don't rejoice in successful service --the great secret of joy is that you have the right relationship with Me." (Luke 10:17-20) What a challenge Jesus makes to us in this statement. It reminds us that its all about Him. And it is a warning that if we focus even a little in what we have succeeded or failed to do it diminishes our ability to see that He has a plan for it all. It is His plan or should be His and not ours, whether we understand it or not.

The Bible says that we see through a glass darkly on this side of heaven not really totally understanding all the works of God, the allowing of death and horrors and its as a riddle. But it goes on to say that when we see the Lord face to face we shall understand it all.

I thank God that today Mother Terese is no longer seeing through the glass which was so dark for her but instead behold's her Saviour's face and is in her place of rest. She was a mighty soldier for God.

There is absolutely no proof that anything in the Bible is based on fact or history, and science continues to disprove large swaths of what the Bible purports to be "truth." Contrary to the opinion of Dr Mohler, I would suggest that faith in Christ comes down to nothing else but feelings. Facts don't enter into it at all.

The truths of the Bible are the truths of fairy tales and fables. Indeed, one can see the moral behind the fable of "The Tortoise and the Hare" without believing that the animals could actually speak. Religion demands that we not only believe the occasional moral of the story, but that the characters ever existed and their words were ever uttered...and that animals, indeed, CAN speak (Baalam's ass).

Such are the "facts" supporting the religious delusion. They are feelings and feelings alone. Nothing more, nothing less.

I appreciate Dr. Mohler for reminding us that Christ, and what He has accomplished in His life, death, and resurrection, is the source of our hope.

As I read about some of Mother Teresa's struggles, I cannot help but think of the Catholic Monk, Martin Luther, who was himself plagued with doubt and fear for much of his early religious life. For, having a keen legal mind, he knew all too well how he had not met the perfect demands of the law of God.

Yet, as I read Dr. Mohler's article, I am also reminded of the beautiful, life-transforming truth that Luther discovered in the pages of Scripture: that God saves sinners by grace alone, through faith alone, on the basis of Christ's life, death, and resurection alone.

I hope and pray that the recent revelations of the struggles and doubts of a women who was so loving and kind, and had done so many wonderful things, remind us of what Dr. Mohler has echoed in his post: out of gratitude and love to God for His marvelous grace, let us serve others; but let us trust in Christ alone to save us sinners who cannont save ourselves. Thanks be to God, Christ came to save sinners!

Dr. Mohler describes well an important line of inquiry over the question of Mother Teresa's spiritual struggle. He does it honestly and biblically, but without taking away from her long record of ministry in difficult places. What was the object of her faith behind her ministry? That is a key question for those who profess a faith in God. His focus is on the sufficiency of Christ in the gospel. To what extent Mother Teresa herself had that focus I cannot say, but the question is critical. Spiritual struggles come in this world; they keep messy appointment books; they challenge us to examine more honestly where we place our confidence before God; they also come under God's wise providence. When true faith is active, it will lead us to die to ourselves, and affirm more and more the Savior's blood on our behalf. If we shift our confidence to what good works may accomplish before God, not what secure position we have with God through Christ, we set ourselves up for future and unnecessary struggle, even depression arising from misplaced pride, as Dr, Mohler suggested. Mother Teresa's letters hint that this may be a question worth raising with her. Whoever we are, may our focus never be: "When will I ever be good enough, or feel good enough?" Rather, as Dr. Mohler points out, let's look to God's promises in the biblical gospel, which are altogether good news to a struggling faith.

Dr. Mohler describes well an important line of inquiry over the question of Mother Teresa's spiritual struggle. He does it honestly and biblically, but without taking away from her long record of ministry in difficult places. What was the object of her faith behind her ministry? That is a key question for those who profess a faith in God. His focus is on the sufficiency of Christ in the gospel. To what extent Mother Teresa herself had that focus I cannot say, but the question is critical. Spiritual struggles come in this world; they keep messy appointment books; they challenge us to examine more honestly where we place our confidence before God; they also come under God's wise providence. When true faith is active, it will lead us to die to ourselves, and affirm more and more the Savior's blood on our behalf. If we shift our confidence to what good works may accomplish before God, not what secure position we have with God through Christ, we set ourselves up for future and unnecessary struggle, even depression arising from misplaced pride, as Dr, Mohler suggested. Mother Teresa's letters hint that this may be a question worth raising with her. Whoever we are, may our focus never be: "When will I ever be good enough, or feel good enough?" Rather, as Dr. Mohler points out, let's look to God's promises in the biblical gospel, which are altogether good news to a struggling faith.

Jeremy,

Another response to what you wrote (I agree with Steph VG's comment. It's a good one).

I'm not sure where this idea comes from but there seems to be a common view that the Bible contains nothing but a series of precepts for us to apply to our lives. There certainly are precepts in it. Would you be surprised to find out that the epistles you reference actually further arguments around clear theses? They are more like essays then they are like a collection of proverbs. They do provide a great deal of facts and evidence.

Consider 1 John 1. John refutes Gnostic false teaching that the Christ did not come in the flesh. As the basis for his argument, he starts with the reality of the incarnation. And he is a witness- a physical witness. He doesn't just say reject that and except this.

Similarly, Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 does the same thing to respond to Corinthian denials of the resurrection. He uses the reality of actual, physical witnesses to provide evidence that Jesus rose from the grave. In Galatians, Paul makes an argument against mandatory circumcision using the truth of the gospel. That is, he uses a clear, understood gospel without secrets and riddles to make an argument.

Now, are we supposed to trust our own subjective feelings over such a clear and understandable word? Everyone has different opinions about everything and different emotions and responses to the same things. How are we supposed to know what is true and what is false? Reading and studying the Bible is not ignoring the work of the Spirit, and trusting our own subjective emotions is not submitting and being sensitive to the Spirit of Christ.

The real idolatry is trusting our own feelings because then we become the standard and the measure of all things. Then we worship ourselves as gods.

Mr. Mohler wrote, "The essence of the Gospel is that none is worthy of salvation. That is what makes salvation all about grace."

How true!

Likewise, salvation is all about the New Birth. Until God sovereignly regenerates the sinner, he is dead in his sins and trespasses (Ephesians 2:1). We were all born sinners, including Mother Teresa.

And as Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3, unless a man is born again ("regenerated", or given a new heart by God, Who also comes to live inside us by His Holy Spirit) he cannot even SEE the Kingdom of God, let alone believe in the King.

You must be born again (John 3:7).

Once we're born again, we can "walk" by the Spirit, or by the flesh. When we walk by the flesh, we may doubt the miracle of the New Birth and salvation that has happened to us when we believed in Jesus Christ, but when we walk by the Spirit, the doubts fly away.

"Believe in the Lord Jesus and you WILL be saved..." (Acts 16:31)

If you are not a believer, read the Gospel of John, and marvel at the Lord Jesus Christ. He is well worthy of believing in.

I just wanted to reply to Jeremy's comment. I fear in doing so I'll be getting off-topic from the article, but I'm concerned that you're missing the point of Scripture, and that's too important a point to let pass by.

Many places in the Bible we are told that Scripture was written, among other reasons:

-"that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ..." (John 20:31)

-"so that through the perseverance and encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope" (Romans 15:4)

-"so that you may know you have eternal life" (1 John 5:13)

Ideas can only be communicated in words. Since we no longer have the physical presence of the Savior with us (and, I fear, it wouldn't make much difference to most of us if we did), God communicates Himself to us through His Word: "...Men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God" (2 Peter 1:21).

Basing our lives on the God we know through His Word, and ordering our lives around the principles we learn in His Word is not Bibliolatry, but rather obedience. We must learn about God, love Him, serve Him, obey Him all on HIS terms, not our own. And how else do we learn those terms but in the Word He has left us?

Isaiah 40 says that though everything else will fades away, God's Word stands forever. What the Lord says to us in the Bible is more true than anything we ourselves can think or feel. We absolutely must "live our lives by the Book," or we will be adrift in a sea of subjective opinion and perception, rather than the truth of eternal realities as only God can communicate to us. Apart from Scripture, we hold to an anchor which is no anchor at all. All we know that makes Christ the sure foundation and the solid anchor is learned as the Spirit teaches us through the Word.

Please don't be so quick to discard the importance of drawing near to the Lord through His Word, both the written AND the Living Word. If not that way, there is no other way.

I think it's highly likely,( based on the description of her own feelings) that Mother Theresa may have been suffering from, undiagnosed, and hence untreated depression.
I seem to remember that Martin Luther( the reformer ) suffered from an ailment that was very much like it.

I think it's highly likely,( based on the description of her own feelings that Mother Theresa may have been suffering from, undiagnosed, and hence untreated depression.
I seem to remember that Martin Luther( the reformer ) suffered from an ailment that was very much like it.

Well written as usual, Dr. Mohler!

This is one of the crucial differences between orthodox (note the lower-case "o") Christianity and the cultic "Word of Faith" movement. Our faith is in Christ and in Him alone. Faith is not some measure of internal strength or positive thinking, but rather an absolute trust in the God Who made us and sent His Son to save us.

Faith in our own faithfulness is ill-founded and meaningless. Worse yet, it places US at the center of the universe. We become the agents of our own salvation. Biblical faith is faith in God through His Son, Jesus Christ. Faith in God saves us. Faith in ourselves will ultimately doom us.

Jeremy wrote:
"Therefore, we would do well to anchor our faith in him, and not merely 'the facts of the gospel.'"

This is not a meaningful statement. How can we put our faith in Jesus if we don't know Him? And how else can we get to know Him except through the Word that He left for us? Of course our faith must be anchored in Jesus Himself. By necessity, that means our faith will be anchored in the facts of the Gospel, because those facts are what He has given us.

Here's the Gospel in a nutshell:
* You are a sinner, and you cannot save yourself.
* God loves you so much that He sent Jesus to live a perfect life and then to die so that He could be the sacrifice for your sin.
* Jesus paid the entire debt for your sin (and mine!) on the Cross. It is finished.
* God raised Jesus from the grave to show His everlasting triumph over sin and death.
* If you place your faith in Jesus, He will save you and remake you into His own image.

If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. These are the facts of the Gospel. Praise the Lord for what He has done!

Dr Mohler, you make this statement:

"Our faith is not anchored in our feelings, but in the facts of the Gospel."

If this is the case, then we don't have a whole lot to go on as Christians. There are not a lot of facts given in the gospels or Epistles. They are made up primarily of what you could call, for lack of a better way of saying it, "life principles." This isn't to say that the gospels are not true, just that there aren't a lot of facts there to trust in.

When we relegate our faith to being "by the book," we have placed our faith in the Bible and thereby made it an idol. Plus, God's Spirit does not reside in the words of the text. Rather He resides in ourselves (as Christians). I am sure you have read The Last Temptation of Christ, and this reminds me of something that I read there.

Jesus is on his journey to the monastery in the desert and the story has shifted to what is happening at this monastery. The abbot is speaking to the other monks and he is reprimanding them for their lack of eyes to see. He states,

"You open the prophets and your eyes are able to see nothing but the letters. But what can letters say? They are the black bars of the prison where the spirit strangles itself with screaming. Between the letters and the lines, and all around the blank margins, the spirit circulates freely."
(Nikos. Kazantzakis. The Last Temptation of Christ. New York, NY: Simon and Schuster. 1960. 105)

I'm not saying that I completely embrace that statement, but the idea seems to be that God's Spirit doesn't reside in the words. And, as Christians, we would have to agree. God's Word came and set up shop among us. Therefore, we would do well to anchor our faith in him, and not merely "the facts of the gospel."

Very well said. There had been other things that troubled me about Mother Theresa before in that she seemed to hold a pantheistic view about God, believing to not only see Jesus in everyone around us, but also in everyTHING around us as well. This included other religions, as well as inatimate objects.

Whatever her faith truly relied upon, I leave to God and His Providence.

Soli Deo Gloria.