Character and Leadership

I am so surprised at 'Susan's comments about Christians being hypocritical because they don't give to the poor. WOW! The recent Zogby survey revealed that Christians are by far (!) the major donors to ANYTHING charitable in the USA. Those on the 'left' are the LEAST likely to donate to to charities.

Since this is a 'scientific' poll with large numbers of responses, I guess you (Susan) may have to rethink your 'hypocrisy' statements and perhaps look at yourself and perhaps even your giving - Especially if you are on the 'left'.

Susan is also worried about 'Christian standards' being imposed. What are your standards? Do you have any standards? Where did those standards come from? I wonder if Susan can substanciate her claim that Christians are the most guilty of gross materalism? Not according to that same Zogby poll which showed even the poorest Christians out gave the non Christians (as a percentage).

Dr. Mohler made the biggest 'clean sweep' of all time when he took over the Southern Baptist Seminary and fired those greatest of all hypocrites, the "Christian" professors who didn't believe in the Bible. I say a huge thanks to Dr. Mohler for that courage shown in the midst of public outrage in the press and newspapers. Now churches all over the world owe Dr. Mohler a debt of gratitude. In another recent poll, the Southern Baptists were the only Protestant denomination in the USA to be growing and not srinking.

Thanks again Dr. Mohler for your well thought and well put response to this question...Spitzer did the right thing by resigning, unlike our last democrat in a higher place who chose to drag the nation through his huge lapse in judgment, moral or otherwise, with a young woman more than half his age, all to try and protect his legacy?

Americans know that leaders are human. The public elected President Grover Cleveland to office in 1884, even as he acknowledged that he was the likely father of a child born out of wedlock. Voters judged him by his long record of public service and moral recovery. Franklin Roosevelt's place in the top rankings of most powerful U.S. presidents is secure -- even with the knowledge of his affair with Lucy Mercer.

But the case of Eliot Spitzer......

Looks like VICTIMIZATION of Eliot.

Where is FORGIVENESS and COMPASSION?????

Susan B.,

I think Dr. Mohler's remarks were pretty restrained. He didn't heap abuse on Spitzer. The gist of his article was that Americans do tend to connect private morality with public fitness to serve. There wasn't anything too inflammatory there. Your hatred and intolerance toward evangelical Christians is blinding you to the actual content of the article.

I mean, come on. What are you going to do? Round us up and have us killed?

"the fundamentalist takeover of the Southern Baptist Covention"
The fact that you would phrase it this way tells us pretty much all we need to know about your biases on the subject.

BGone : I'm not celebrating anything. To the contrary. We're at war with Islam - declared by Islam and not us. Looks to me like they're winning. Let's hope that's temporary.

Moi : Thanks for sharing that. It is like saying one is at war with Christianity. From the looks of it, in On Faith threads, atheists are "at war" with all religionists.

Unless of course, you mean you are at war against terrorists who call themselves Muslims like Osama/Al Qaeda and their ilks. Or that surger to promote and usher in democracy and freedom in Iraq and Afghanistan and to drain the swamp of evildoers and all that.

There is a greater war on home ground - war against recession. The sub-primes crisis and Bear Steans surely is a vast Islamic, Muslim conspiracy to undermine US economy as part of the larger, long term war effort.

But, anyway, there is now a vast Muslim-Chinese conspiracy to control global funds and economy to bring down western civilisation as we know it and usher in a new era of Islam-Confucianism.

Did Samuel Huntington not suggest something like that after the fall of communism and the US went looking for new enemies to unite Americans against another external threat, another common enemy for rah, rah, rah, we are one nation, one people under God, and we will fight all enemies, real and imagined in their countries, in their cities in their homes, in their streets?

There is a consensus among the most informed folks regarding the fundamentalist takeover of the Southern Baptist Covention that Al Mohler is a chameleon.
He became the President of Southern Seminary because he compromised his religion pilgrimage for ambition.
Ask David Keys at Emory and David Gushee at Mercer.
So the part about all of us being sinners, Mohlet got right.
How Mohler and Richard Land--see the Rove Era in Garry Wills AmericanChristianities and Randall Balmer's repeated calls last week for the resignation of Land--get away with what they get away with is beyond me.

"MODERN-MORALiTY is Superior to Biblical-Morality."

What is "Modern-morality?" What does that actually mean?

re:character is indispensable to leadership!

I don't think so Mr. Mohler and the later part of your essay contradicts same as does million of pages of history.

The primary difference between Spitzer and Clinton is that Spitzer was participating in a criminal activity and financing organized crime through it. "what Clinton did was technically not illegal," understates the difference by quite a bit.
What brought Spitzer's offenses into the open was not his potential violations of the Mann Act, but the financial chicanery he used to try and cover his dalliances.

“But the case of Eliot Spitzer reminds us all that the public does have a sense that personal morality is tied to public leadership.”

Dr. Mohler responds by pointing out the premise the question begged, namely that this issue has ‘something’ to say about the connection between private and public morality. He further elucidates that the Spitzer scandal evidences our belief in some sort of morality. Although he is not explicit as to this point, one cannot miss his hint at a ‘natural law’ within each of us which recognizes the need for such connections. If he is not explicit as to where we derive these standards he is certainly explicit concerning what conclusion may be drawn from our failure to meet the standards – “In a biblical perspective, this is yet another grim and sobering reminder that all are sinners, and that sin will work its corrosive way into moral collapse, but for the restraining grace of God, and His saving grace through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

It seems to me that in order to disagree with his assessment, one must disagree with his premises
(1) There is an objective moral standard (not one private and one public).
(2) The Bible offers clear answers as to the source of such a standard (God), the reason for our failing to meet the standards (sin), and the reason the problem is no more worse than it is (“but for the restraining grace of God, and His saving grace through Jesus Christ our Lord.”) Obviously these are multiple premises.

I can see no way of escaping the truth of each of these premises. Notice that arguing that the Bible is wrong does not thwart the truth of his premises. Given the truth of these premises and the validity of the argument, I find Dr. Mohler’s assessment to be sound and cogent – not to mention quite helpful.

Susan B: "there is so much hypocrisy among Christians..."

That's true, hypocrisy is everywhere, look at Spitzer. Does that mean that all Christians are hypocrites? Are you one of those people who would have said in the 60's all blacks are lazy, all southerners are bigots?

Ad homimen attacks really don't change the facts. Where there are frail flawed human beings there will always be hypocrisy. Does this mean we should not strive for better... for a higher standard?

Sptizer needed to resign. If his wife and daughters can't trust him, then neither can we. If he won't strive to keep the standards he holds others to, then we should seek to find a more capable man.

Signed,

A flawed and sometimes hypocritical person (and Christian)

Keith

GaryD:

I saw a chart on CNBC that was the profile of a pyramid for the dollar index. It began at a low about the time Clinton took moffice and topped out around 2000. What happened during 2001 to cause it to start falling? It's almost a straight line in both directions, first up during Clinton's administration and down ever since.

I'm not celebrating anything. To the contrary. We're at war with Islam -declared by Islam and not us. Looks to me like they're winning. Let's hope that's temporary.

All issues are economic. Religion only serves to cloud that truism. Spitzer didn't find a woman that "sinned" for fun did he? He didn't get the money to pay her from Satan did he? It's always the money. Let's not ignore what morality issues have done for the money -making it worth less.

According to Mr Mohler Jr it must be something else besides the money. Note the fact that morality is a non issue that clouds people's thinking. Religion does that for economic reasons known as "money on the plate." Mr Mohler Jr makes his living taking money from the plate. There's no way to get away from it unless he, (all religion operators and not just him alone) decides to do as Jesus commanded, "sell all your earthly possessions and distribute the proceeds to the poor."

That's not likely to happen. The best we can do is do our best to bring understanding of what's going on -remove the clouds. God knows there's a lot of clouds of which only some are the work of religion. Mr Spitzer was living in a cloud of his own that got "all cleared up" provided religion is left out of his prosecution -and it won't be.

according to USA and UK, this government was supporting El Kaide and anti-Israel units, what is the difference now for USA and UK?

what did change in these two years? how did it change?!

but you know, for Holland this is the best, one stone two birds. but this is more than two birds for USA.

Vatican, United Kingdom, Homosexuality, Opium, Russia, socialism.

but who cares for honour and wisdom!

http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siirt

when i wrote to support for Armenians, against Armenian Bill, for Ahmet prophet, against Islam of Ottomans

i was tortured with electromagnetic means by this government. if European Union accepts trhis government with Kurds, they have better be ready for Zoroastorians and anti-christians.

the city that Recep Tayyip Erdogan talked is where Armenians were slaughtered and where Zoroastorians murdered Christians around 300 AC.

Based on what the Bible actually says the average persons morality didn't differ much if any from now.

MODERN-MORALiTY is Superior to Biblical-Morality.

MODERN-MORALiTY is Superior to Biblical-Morality.

MODERN-MORALiTY is Superior to Biblical-Morality.

MODERN-MORALiTY is Superior to Biblical-Morality.

MODERN-MORALiTY is Superior to Biblical-Morality.

MODERN-MORALiTY is Superior to Biblical-Morality.

MODERN-MORALiTY is Superior to Biblical-Morality.

Bgone check your hole card the dollar has been falling against other currencies since it was detached from gold in the '60's. In fact over the last 20 years the only currencies the dollar has not consistently fallen against are those that have been pegged to it.

"But the case of Eliot Spitzer reminds us all that the public does have a sense that personal morality is tied to public leadership -- indeed that private morality and public morality cannot be on two completely different tracks."

Have you tried telling that to George W. Bush?

I think all this scandal tells us is why Spitzer was on such a personal crusade against prostitution: he couldn't control himself, so he obsessed on trying to control others. Possibly blaming prostitutes for his own failures and trying to punish them.

But who knows, on that last bit.

The fact is, that prostitution will pretty much always be with us: I think the governmental focus should be on making sure the people involved are treated well and fairly. Time to get it out of the shadows, I think. Well, as soon as the country's ready.

Where is compassion????

How is it the Bill Clinton not only survived, but has been 'rehabilitated' re his tryst with Monica, while Spitzer did not survive one week after his incident with a prostitute was made public. I asked this question of a Clinton supporter and this was the answer I got: 1) what Clinton did was technically not illegal and 2) Clinton was the President, while Spitzer was only a Governor.
So the contention is that Clinton had the benefit of the power of being President, and that what he did was not illegal, no matter how morally bankrupt. Never mind that no CEO of any responsible company could survive the disclosure of a sex act in their office with a junior employee, because for all of us in the private sector, that is sexual harrasment and it IS against the law.
My answer of why Clinton survived is that he denied and lied and stonewalled. He lined up all the women in his cabinet at his side as he lied to America, and all those women were demeened ever so much as Mrs. Spitzer. He redefined the definition of sex. He provided answers in the present tense because truthful answers in the past tense were incriminating. Finally, he successfully politicized the issue: it became not about what He did, but about the vast right wing conspiracy that was out to get him. He took the country on a roller coaster ride of impeachment only for his survival. A better and more moral man would have resigned and left Gore as president. So perhaps if Clinton had morality, Al Gore would still be president today and there would be no Iraq war. While that is just speculation, Clinton’s survival underscores that, however bright and talented, Bill is morally bankrupt and will do whatever it takes to win. Lies, duplicity and insidious innuendo are just tools in his Machiavellian bag of tricks.

Agree completely with Susan Bergfalk.

The religious Right of today are the Pharisees of Jesus' time. It's almost fascinating that Jesus reportedly spent so much time teaching his disciples how to spot Pharisees. (They tend to be the ones who don't bear any Galatians 5:22-23 fruit.)

Why the Religious Right's agenda is absolutely unbiblical:

http://churchstatewall.typepad.com/the_church_state_wall/culture-wars-incompatiblp.html

And unconstitutional:

http://churchstatewall.typepad.com/the_church_state_wall/christian_nation_impossib.html

Nothing is more revealing about leadership than the value of the dollar expressed as the "dollar index" the exchange rate between our money and that of other countries. Today it's at an all time low. So you're saying that in spite of Mr Clinton's "star" difficulties the dollar's continued climb during his administration to a contemporary all time high didn't happen? Without a public face of moral conviction one is not capable of leading? Yeah, sure.

All issues are economic and more so today than ever since the great depression. We have George W "Born-again" Bush in the leadership role and the dollar is taking a beating that defies description. Oil is out of site with all commodities following suit. Look for a loaf of bread to soon cost $10 if something isn't done and quickly. And, you think checking out the leader's sex life is the solution. Yeah, sure.

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul explains it all. The biggest devil of them all, Lucifer is behind the present leadership that got it's license to destroy the economy from Lucifer agents known as preachers, priests, Rabbis, Ayatollahs and elders of the Mormon church -in general, ministers.

While a majority of Americans have already bought their tickets to hell for after they die Lucifer is busy with his agents and their mega churches under the super morality of "Born-again" Bush bringing hell right here, right now.

Those who live in glass houses shouldn't do stone throwing contests. Prove there's a single evangelical minister that isn't homosexual before you throw stones at Spitzer. Homosexuals can and do reproduce and the righteous ones get married to people of the opposite gender first. Ultra Reverend Ted Haggard got caught just like Spitzer but caught doing what?

Bottom line -the Devil makes them do that because Lucifer needs the money and the easiest place to get the money is at church where the righteous meet to compete for tickets to a higher place in hell, (heat rises). Evangelicals are so busy worrying about the 6th commandment they're overlooking the 7th. Will paying at the pump wake them up? They obviously can't read or even look at pictures.

may i learn when to say God, when to say JEsus, when to say Jesus Christ, when to say Jesus Christ Our Lord?

The federal law that was used to investigate a sitting Governor is older than a woman's right to vote, older than the implementation and repeal of Prohibition, and older than a soldier's right to vote. And the two occupations of the individuals involved are the first oldest profession, prostitute, and the second, politician. I wonder what else the FBI heard.

It troubles me that federal investigators can tap a Governor's phone over such an old law that was designed to stop sex slavery, which is different than the $1000 per night fantasy world that the Governor and his Pretty Woman created for themselves.

Further evidence of the crime's meaninglessness is big media's recognition of the prostitute's creed of confidentiality. If the crime is so bad, how is the public served by the media encouraging an honor among theives? The truth is that Kristen is encouraged by big media to remain mum because big media cannot print the sensational details. If Kristen begin to tell all, then the tabloids will steal the lead from the Gray Lady.

What moral outrage and hipocracy we see today.

Thank you, Dr. Mohler,

For clear and unambiguous assessment of a personal and public tragedy. I think your statement follows both the principles and spirit of I Timothy 5:19-20 concerning the responsibility of leaders with relation to their credibility with followers.

There is so much hypocrisy amongst Christians, especially the religious right, that I feel disapppointed by your article. Christians rage about issues like prostitution, abortion, and gay marriage but not about the gross materialism of which they are most guilty. They routinely gloss over the teachings of Jesus about caring for the poor and not storing up for ourselves treasures in heaven. I noticed that you criticized 3 presidents that were democrats but of course you wouldn't mention the recent republicans and their multiple moral failures. You strike me as being so morally blind. As a religious leader, you have a very narrow focus. Why am I not surprised.