Religions Mature into Imperfection

kita harus tahu

Terry:

You are correct in your observations about Hinduism and Buddhism. This is a belated recognition of your post. I was just browsing through some of them today.

Most in America and the West confuse Hinduism as being polytheistic, but thsi is not correct. Hindus believe in One God who takes the form that devotees worship Him as. Each of one of us also have different forms--as husband, wife, friend, foe, colleague, son, daughter, or whatever although we are each a unique individual. It's Maya--a projection of Brahman.

TO CANYON SHEARER:

You wrote, "Do you consider yourself to be a good person?", actually I consider myself to be a sinner, what do you consider yourself to be?

Our Brother, Jesus once said, "He who is without sin cast the first stone". He did not say, He who's sin is forgiven and He also did not say, He who's sin is less. Since I have sinned even though it has been forgiven means that I am a sinner. Personally, I feel as though I cannot cast even a speck of dust at anyone else much less a stone.

God's Plan is for all of His children, HUMANITY, to be in His Kingdom and at the inauguration of His Kingdom at the dawning of the seventh day, we will be. Maybe we should pray for the Will of God instead of our own, even if we don't know exactly what God's Will is or exactly how it will come about.

God is God and I'm not, I am just a messenger as it says, "Remember I have chosen you, you have not chosen Me". I definitely take that to heart. As I have said before God did not ask us to be more forgiving, compassionate and merciful than God, do you think He did?

Take care, be ready, see you in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

TO ENDER:

You wrote, concerning me, "HE DOESN'T HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS,", yes that is right, I am not a know-it-all, I am just a messenger.

You also wrote, "INCLUDING KNOWING WHAT EXACTLY WHAT THE GOD HE CREATED THINKS.", I did not create God, God created not only me and you but absolutely everything and everybody, except for Himself. Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews was created and not created, as in I AM WHO AM, True Man and True God, mind-boggling but true. Don't worry, one day all will know and be glad.

I have met God, the Trinity, and He is a lot nicer than some of the people that know His Name think that He is and also a lot nicer than some of the people that know His Name want Him to be.

God has a Plan and has had That Plan since before creation.

Take care, see you in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

TO CONCERNED THE CHRISTIAN NOW LIBERATED:

You wrote, " A thorough analyses by many contemporary NT exegetes have concluded that the passages you cite above were not said by the historic Jesus but were later additions/embellishments made to win more converts and thereby increase donations.", the "learned" of Jesus's day did not believe what was written in the Hebrew scriptures either, why should today be any different, has human nature changed since then? Actually the "many contemporary NT exegetes", you write about quite often, are predicted in the bible so it really is not a surprise that so many people try to rip the bible to shreds.

The bible gutted of the Truth is less than worthless.

Take care, see you in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Gandalf,

You answered the question of a coloring book religion yourself, "Re-incarnation has different interpreations", these religions are solely based on achieving your own liking in life, in order to eventually become a god. The reason I don't know everything about Buddhism is because there are 4.6 billion versions of it.

Ok, at least we agree on one thing, that the conscience is important. If you're good, you hopefully will become a lion or tiger or bear, oh my. But if you're bad, you'll be punished, and come back as an antlion, a tiger moth, or a bile bear.

Do you consider yourself to be a good person? Against whose standards? The universal standard of the conscience.

Have you ever told a lie? The #1 pet peeve on eHarmony.com is liars.

Have you ever stolen anything? Value is irrelevant, a toy from a sibling, a stapler from work, a song on the internet, all constitute larceny, your conscience bears witness to this.

Have you ever used God's name in vain? God is blessed forever, and so is His name. We are under the curse of sin. Noone screams out, "Oh my Buddha!" or "Oh my Mohammed!" because these men are already cursed, when we call out God's name as a curse word, it's because we hate Him and wish He was cursed. God will not hold Him guiltless that takes His name in vain.

These are only three of the laws written on your conscience. If you've broken them, your conscience is calling you a lying thieving blasphemer. If your reincarnation idea is true, you'll come back as a sewer rat. But your idea of reincarnation is false, because there are far too many bad people in the world who have somehow magically arrived at this state of being.

Instead you will stand before God after your death, and will have to give an account for your transgressions.

You may be resurrected to live in everlasting life, or you may be thrown into everlasting torment.

Not because you're a good person, but because your fine has been paid by a good God already, and if you'll repent of your ways, you will be saved.

These are the only two options.

I don't know what book you have been reading to get your "knowledge" about Buddhism and Hinduism.

First and foremost, Paganism and Hinduism or Buddhism are not the same thing, they are different religions though they have a few things common.

Then, you say: "Lack of atonement...there is a small problem there. The coloring book nature...that's another problem."

Atonement is a Christian concept. Actually, semantically speaking, it was a concept invented in late sixteenth century. Nevertheless, it is mainly associated with crucifixion. So you saying that other religions not "having" atonement is kind of silly! I don't know what you mean by "coloring book nature".

Your next set of questions:
"Who's in charge of Hindu reincarnation? Does your conscience play a part? If not, why do we have consciences?"
Re-incarnation has different interpretations in Buddhism, Jainism and Hinduism (also based on which school of Buddhism you read). However, it is primarily based on ones' deeds (at the physical and mental levels). So, conscience does have a very important role to play. Simple, right? I don't understand what problem you could have with this concept.

"Why doesn't anybody ever think they were a tape-worm in their last life?"
One could very well have been a tapeworm. You may have been a tapeworm, for all you know my dear friend!

"Why does everything think they'll be better next time?"
Nope, no think! Everyone hopes so... it is like in Christianity, everyone wants to go to heaven!

"These are not logical religions, they are men attempting to achieve godhood, which is a sin."
Who decides logical, who decides sin? Don't you think it is pointless trying to argue about how "my religion is better than yours"! It is one thing trying to understand what other religions preach, teach, what their principles are. But forming half-baked opinions based on utter ignorance and arrogance (such as yours) does not sound so Christian to me!

Gandalf,

I'll let you in on a little secret, I came out of one of these brands of paganism. It couldn't hold me, there is no way it's going to convert me back.

Lack of atonement...there is a small problem there. The coloring book nature...that's another problem.

Who's in charge of Hindu reincarnation? Does your conscience play a part? If not, why do we have consciences? Why doesn't anybody ever think they were a tape-worm in their last life? Why does everything think they'll be better next time?

These are not logical religions, they are men attempting to achieve godhood, which is a sin.

Repent or perish.

My 2 cents: When I focus on whether I'm doing what I believe is necessary for me to get closer to God/Truth/etc, and when I don't focus on whether others are doing what I think they should be doing, then my ability to peacefully coexist and to see the merits of divergent points of view increases.

If we all had the same, static views and conclusions on matters of faith, were would growth come from?

Naive, I know.

No Canyon...I believe What Christopher Wade is asking you to do is read about Hinduism and Buddhism with an open mind. A difficult and big ask for someone like you, I agree!!

Christopher Wade,

So you're telling me I should study the brand of the coloring book religion of Buddhis/Hinduism that can stay inside the lines?

It is appointed once for a man to die, and then the judgment. How will you do on that day, if that is what happens?

Canyon Shearer wrote:

"Or do as the Dalai Lama and follow a false idol, and perish in your sins."

Christopher responds:

One of the powerful messages of H.H.'s religious tradition is that since all created and destroyed things are ultimately devoid of independent existence, false idols are precisely what is avoided most of all by the diligent devotee. Perhaps a genuine, open-hearted study of Buddhism, especially its Mahayana/Vajrayana branches would do you good.

Thomas,

Do you consider yourself to be a good person?
http://www.wayofthemaster.com/goodperson.shtml

For an excellent work on Gnosticism as it exists today see 'Gnosticism - New Light on the Ancient
Tradition of Inner Knowing' by Stephan A. Hoeller. Perhaps the foremost exponent of Gnosticism in the USA today, this gentleman is still an ordained bishop in the Catholic church if I'm not mistaken.

Gnosticism and it's ancient practices had much in common with the Greek-inspired Eleusinian mysteries and other esoteric practices common in the early days of Christianity. Even today the Eastern Orthodox branch of the Catholic church has a significant mystical/meditative tradition following the tradition of the early Desert Fathers. Other excellent reference works include 'The Nag Hammadi Library/Gnostic Scriptures' by James Robinson, 'The Gnostic Gospels' by Elaine Pagels, and a large compendium of Gnostic historical references entitled 'The Gnostic Bible' by Barnstone and Meyer.

The mystical traditions and the way of esoteric knowledge is alive and well for those seekers that want direct knowledge of the profound spiritual mysteries that the Christian bible seldom alludes to. Even the protestants have their own mystical tradition, but this of course is cloaked in mystery outside academic circles. Read 'The Perennial Philosophy' by Aldous Huxley for a candid view of mysticism in both Catholic and Protestant context.

As we've seen all too clearly here,
fundamentalism is basically a mean-spirited and exclusive club whose over-arching persona is authoritarian in the extreme, and who has latched on to a polyglot historical work (the bible) whose dubious authorship and authenticity even biblical scholars acknowledge.

It's fair to say that deep spiritual truths are seldom found in books - the best anyone can do is follow the example of great spiritual geniuses of self-mastery that have discovered it for themselves. Out of an infinite compassion arising from their self-discovered truths they choose to share the methods and ways leading to these discoveries with the rest of humanity.

We're fortunate indeed that this is the case.

Tommy don't care about historical accuracy or none of your stinkin' facts. He has devoted to much of his self worth and individuality to contemplate a world view where HE DOESN'T HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS, INCLUDING KNOWING WHAT EXACTLY WHAT THE GOD HE CREATED THINKS.

Moses, "This is God Talking" Baum,

I see you are bible thumping again. A thorough analyses by many contemporary NT exegetes have concluded that the passages you cite above were not said by the historic Jesus but were later additions/embellishments made to win more converts and thereby increase donations.

A good place to start the healing process is by reading Professor Crossan's book at:

http://books.google.com/books?id=AsPHR4-7Wc8C&pg=PA444&lpg=PA444&dq=%22place+of+life%22+%22the+historical+jesus%22+crossan&source=web&ots=8mVx_1M6g4&sig=XFqT8S1coAT18xq8Qwt1vMcMjW0

TO CANYON SHEARER AND ALL THE REST OF JESUS'S BROTHERS AND SISTERS AND MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS AND EVERYBODY ELSE' BROTHERS AND SISTERS, HUMANITY:

You wrote, "Dear Thomas,

You are a heretic," thank you.

If you remember it was the religious people of Jesus's day that called Him a blasphemer. So I guess that puts me in pretty good company.

Actually if God was anything like you seem to think He is, who would want anything to do with Him? I have met God, the Trinity and I have also met satan, who can try to come across as mister nice guy but not only is satan a liar, a thief, a deceiver and an accuser but he is also very upset since his time as prince of this world is short, well that is his problem.

God's Plan is for all of His children, humanity, to be with Him in His Kingdom. Yes hell is real but there is not "a hell", whoever ends up there builds it themselves. Jesus, Himself went to hell but since He voluntarily took upon Himself the sin and the sins of the world, we are the ones that built the hell that He went to, pretty nice of God to do that, don't you think? That is how God won the keys to hell that He will use in due time.

Jesus said, "Simon thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build MY Church and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it". Peter was called to be a rock, a living stone, and that is what a christian is suppose to be, a living stone in the heavenly Jerusalem. It is JESUS'S CHURCH. The gates of the netherworld are hell and spiritual death and He won the keys to both and He will use them in due time, God's Time. God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable, the dead shall rise and the captives shall be released and if you don't like it, take it up with God, I am just a messenger. TOTAL VICTORY.

As I have said before and say again, The True, Living, Triune, Triumphant God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of religious affiliations or lack thereof. It seems that a lot of people will be hiding behind their religion and also a lot of people hiding behind the bible crying out, "Lord, Lord", seems pretty obvious that they know God's Name, does it not?

Thank God for God's Plan, "all tears shall be wiped dry" not some, not most, but all. Have you ever heard of mercy or compassion, we will all be judged and it is important what you do and why you do it and what you know.

Maybe we should believe Jesus when He spoke of God the Father and told us to call Him, ABBA. Maybe we should believe Jesus when He said, "Father forgive THEM". Maybe we should believe Jesus when He said, "It is finished" which means, PAID IN FULL. Maybe we should believe Jesus when He said, "Judge not lest ye be judged". Maybe we should believe Jesus when He said, "The measure you judge with will be the measure that you are judged with". Jesus said some other things too, but these are some things to chew on, don't you think?

I place not only my eternal but my everlasting destiny in God's Hands.

Take care, be ready, see you in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Canyon,

Your obsession with Revelations aka the Apocalypse is not healthy as the demons of the demented are not good in keeping you in the realm of reality.

And you might want to review the definitions of Gnosticism!!!!

In this 'duhVinci code' society, you're thinking Johnny D. is consulted for his amazing knowledge? He's only lucky that his particular brand of heresy is marketable.

Please read Revelation 3:1-6 about the churches he's speaking at. All but two of them are secular social-clubs named after godly churches of the 18th and 19th centuries.

He's an ear scracher, nothing more.

Gnosticism was heresy then, it's heresy now.

Canyon,

Strong words from a person with a PhD in Theology/History/Religious Studies???

Considering Professor Crossan's lecture schedule for 2007 which you apparently did not review, theologians do not laugh at him but invite him to speak at various churches and seminars. And the TV networks invite him to comment on the historical Jesus because he is one of the better consultants on the subject.

And your "op-ed" articles are published in what journal??

And I "smell" some googling going on in your research about the Professor!!!!

CCNotL,

Johnny D is a gnostic, not a historian, if you'd read him, you'd know that. I've read "The Birth of Christianity" and "The Historical Jesus", and referenced chapters from several others, most of my experiences with him are from his journal articles.

He's an idiot, delusional in every way, and if he had any shot at the papacy, I'd bet he was the final antichrist.

Are you really going to let a person, who real theologians laugh at, be your guide down the wide path of destruction?

Canyon,

Hmmm, Gnosticism? Not relevant to the historic Jesus.

And the books you have read cover to cover about the historic Jesus are????

CCNotL,

Gnosticism died almost two-millenia ago...resurrecting it will do no good for your soul on Judgment Day.

Canyon,

Professor Crossan is one of many contemporary NT exegetes who have put reality back into Christianity. See for example the biographies of some of these experts posted at http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html .

Said list also has the titles of their books. Specifically of these books which have you read cover to cover???

I have no need to listen to Mr. Crossan, I've read several of his books for various research projects, and he is ALWAYS wrong. I have NEVER agreed with him on anything. 'Delusional in every way' is how I annotated him in my last research report.

If you enjoy reading/listening to Johnny D., please know that your itching ears are being scratched; you have been given over to unsound teaching to wander in myths.

Canyon,

You apparently also suffer from seeing "devils of the demented". Reading and believing The Apocalypse will do that to you.

I assume you checked out Professor Crossan's lecture tour for 2007? Maybe he will be lecturing in a church near you?

Dear Thomas,

You are a heretic, the only way I will see you in the kingdom is if I have a seat in the final judgment as God tells you, "Depart from me, you worker of iniquity, I never knew you."

CCNotL,

Being willfully ignorant is not an excuse.

Moses, "Double ID, Tom Baum,

We are still waiting for your Revelations and Meeting with God on YouTube.

Canyon,

Ahh, Revelations i.e. The Apocalypse whose author is some guy named John but not John the Apostle or John of John's gospel. Said fellow supposedly talked secretly to Jesus and got all the gory details of the future and end in coded symbols.

Give us a break!!!! That is up there with believing in "pwtfft"s.

TO PAGAN PLACE:

You wrote, "Eh, wouldn't some people be surprised. :)", that is quite the understatement, thank you. Lots of people are going to be surprised. God really is a lot nicer than some people think He is and He is a lot nicer than some people want Him to be.

His Plan is for all of His Creation which will somehow be the new heaven and the new earth. I am just a messenger and it is a shame that the only thing some people know about God is His Name.

Take care, see you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

TO CANYON SHEARER AND THE REST OF MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS, HUMANITY:

You wrote, "Your theology is a mushed, muddled, and inconsistent.", actually theology is the study of God and some people study and study and study, but I have met God, the Trinity, as it says, "I have chosen you, you haven't chosen Me", and He does not have a "good enough plan" but a "GOOD PLAN". Just like the word gospel means "GOOD NEWS", it does not mean "good enough news".

You also wrote, "But you're claiming universal salvation, even after we know that many people are eternally in Hell, and that God hates sinners.", I would like to say two things about that statement:

ONE, we all go into eternity at death but since God Himself created time, He is the One that is turning eternity into everlasting time, remember the seventh day will get here, you can do what you want but why do you persist in underestimating God?

TWO, you said, God hates sinners, since we are all sinners then what you are saying is that you believe God hates all of us, actually God is Pure Love, one day you will know that.

I would also like to make another comment about theology, I am not a theologian, just a messenger and whether you like it or not or even agree with God's Plan, it is His Plan not yours or mine, but God's Plan. God is not a loser or an egomaniac.

Take care, see you in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Did you read about the dead church in Revelation 3:1-6?

Canyon,

Professor Crossan has not been excommunicated.

Did you check out his lecture series? Quite a few Christian churches have invited him to speak.

And just think, Marcion had a lot of it right all along.

CCNotL,

So this little daVinci code wannabe writer is right because he dissented?

Look up Marcion, that may be a dead heresy you would be interested in following.

Please read Luke 16:19-end and subsitute "John D." for the rich man...and then read Revelation 3:1-6 abour Mr. excomunicated Crossan.

Canyon,

But Professor Crossan has written over 23 books on various aspects of the NT and is a commentator on many national Jesus' TV specials. Most Catholic and Protestant hierarchies are simply afraid of the truth and losing their jobs and they should since they continue to spout erroneous "supernatural mumbo jumbo" to include father god committing filicide.

You can easily cure your orthodox, Christian bible thumped, brainwashing by reading some of Professor Crossan's books. His book, The Historical Jesus, is now free on-line from Google Books.

Apparently not all Christians fear the truth: See the Professor's speaking schedule for 2007.
http://www.johndominiccrossan.com/

Rajan Zed -

My understanding of Hinduism is this - Brahman as the ultimate Godhead is the only reality. This being true, Hinduism is not truly pantheistic and does not believe in a pantheon of various gods with permanent individual identities, except in the sense that Brahman takes many and various forms as part of Layla, or the cosmic drama generated by Brahman in all it's multiplicity.

This would be Hinduism in it's pure form, but believers will naturally gravitate to god forms that are singled out for special attention, thus seeming to give them a life of their own. At this point believers have fallen into dualism, and are neglecting the single reality of Brahman.

It's easy to see how the Buddha took a detour 2500 years ago - he was put off by the caste system (despite being royalty himself) and in his own investigatons he once again discovered the one reality of Brahman, but seeking to avoid the mulifarious forms found in Hinduism, it was necessary to generate a new philosophy, and in effect a new religion.

While Enlightenment was a primary goal, it seems clear that Compassion for the suffering of others was equally important as part of the new doctrine. We find this to be true today. The Buddhist philosophy of the Dalai Lama is the position of the Bodhisattva - one who seeks perfect truth but who will not bear the fruits of that knowledge until all sentient beings arrive at the same point of wisdom.

On the other hand, the Tibetan form of Buddhism is deeply intertwined with the (earlier) local Bon tradition, and you will find a pantheon of gods here as well. As always, the object is never to lose sight of the one reality - and in that sense, Hinduism is the mother to Buddhism.

While Milarepa is revered as the great Tibetan Buddha, it is Nagarjuna, the great 2nd century Indian Buddhist philosopher and proponent of the Middle Way position in Buddhism, that holds the position as seminal Buddhist thinker and dialectician in Tibet.

My point here is to briefly show the profound historical relationship that exists between India and Tibet - the truth of Hinduism is the truth of Buddhism .... and of all religions.

Dear Thomas...you're severely contradicted yourself.

God is a searcher of hearts and minds...you're correct there, He told Jeremiah that the heart is desperately wicked and deceitful beyond all things. "Who can truly know the depths of the evil contained in the human heart?" Jeremiah asks.

But you're claiming universal salvation, even after we know that many people are eternally in Hell, and that God hates sinners.

But then you claim that people shouldn't continue sinning so that grace further abounds.

Your theology is a mushed, muddled, and inconsistent.

God is going to win, Satan is going to lose. The message you are preaching puts you on Satan's side, and you know that's not a good side to be on!

"For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God." - Jude 1:4

"Take care, be ready, see you in the Kingdom."

Eh, wouldn't some people be surprised. :)

Actually, that might be a good 'Hell' for someone right there, being in 'Heaven' with all the people you were trying to damn. :)

But I dunno, I never understood Christian ideas of afterlife, except St. Peter might be like, "No frickin' jokes this time, Irish." :)

Anyway, I still hardly think it's the best idea ever to treat the world as though you ain't coming back, but that was a nice thing to say, Thomas. :)

TO CANYON SHEARER AND THE REST OF HUMANITY:

You wrote, "If your view of God is right, what is the point of you preaching it?", first off I am not preaching it, I am proclaiming that God actually cares for all of His children and that is why He has "The Plan" that is unfolding before our very eyes. Being a christian is being an active participant in God's Plan of salvation.

You also wrote, "On the otherhand, if God is who He says He is, and He told Moses, "I AM who I say I am." then you're in a whee bit of trouble.", well that is Who God Is. Remember when Jesus walked on this planet and some of the Jews of His day thought that only Jews would be saved, today some christians basically think the same thing that only those who profess to being "christian" even if they are not, then they are the only ones to be saved, what is the difference between the pharisees and biblical scholars of Jesus's day and today?

Did you actually read what I wrote? Did you actually think about what I wrote? You don't have to believe it but you should try to see what it says, not what you think it says.

Another thing you wrote is, "Let the people have their sin for a season.", I am so thankful that God is, to say the least, much more forgiving and merciful that you seem to think He is capable of being.

On the cross, Jesus said, "Father forgive them", pure and simple, we sure do like to add words to some of Jesus's most simple and direct statements, don't we? Didn't Jesus offer the invitation to, "Come follow Me", don't you think that if we are as adopted sons and daughters then we have some work to do? Do you think being a christian is to be arrogant and holier than thou or to carry on the work begun by Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews, the Second Person of Triune, Triumphant God?

I am just a messenger: God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable. God has a Plan and has had that Plan since before creation, be ready. As it says, God created the world in six days and on the seventh day God rested, blest and made holy. As Jesus told us, night is coming when no man can work, be ready. As He told us, if we have ears to hear, we are in the sixth day, of course they are God-Days, how long each one lasted only God knows, but night is coming and after that with the dawning of the seventh day will be the inauguration of the Kingdom of God.

It is important what you do and why you do it and what you know, that is not buying your way into the "good place", it is doing or at least trying to do the right thing for the right reason.

I repeat: God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof and it does say that in the bible.

Take care, be ready, see you in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

JD Crossan is a hack not welcome in Protestant OR Catholic churches, that's how bad his heresy is. Congrats on quoting him.

Rajan Zed,

Hmmm, Hinduism (from http://www.hinduism.co.za/founder.htm) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’".

But when "misapplying holy scriptures through selective study and decoding, seeing ourselves as God’s charge d’affaires, claiming to be the lone owner of the truth and all the roads to salvation, positioning the ideal portrayal of one’s own religion with the apparently defective truth of other religions, etc.", you end up with:

The Hindu caste/laborer system and cow worship and saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism??????????

Canyon and Moses "Double ID", "Thump, Thump" Tom Baum,

From a more enlightened mind who has spent the time reviewing all the scriptures and related documents:

from Professor JD Crossan in his book, "Who is Jesus" co-authored with Richard Watts)

"Moreover, an atonement theology that says God sacrifices his own son in place of humans who needed to be punished for their sins might make some Christians love Jesus, but it is an obscene picture of God. It is almost heavenly child abuse, and may infect our imagination at more earthly levels as well. I do not want to express my faith through a theology that pictures God demanding blood sacrifices in order to be reconciled to us."

"Traditionally, Christians have said, 'See how Christ's passion was foretold by the prophets." Actually, it was the other way around. The Hebrew prophets did not predict the events of Jesus' last week; rather, many of those Christian stories were created to fit the ancient prophecies in order to show that Jesus, despite his execution, was still and always held in the hands of God."

"In terms of divine consistency, I do not think that anyone, anywhere, at any time, including Jesus, brings dead people back to life."

Canyon proves Zed's point in a most spectacular manner.

All banks carry money (but) unless one's credit being good,there aint no money to be got.As with one's in dividual spiritual account,if it empty then one's credit,word as bond,be worthless. The spiritual account of "Dalai Lama" being you dont have to kiss his ass before getting respect.x X

I would say that the fact that religions aren't *immune to people or history* ...isn't a problem if the true intent is to learn more and see better.

Promises of perfection tend to lead to expectations of perfection, and thus more strident promises when that doesn't work out, and then more expectations and more promises... conditions, demands, and on and on.

We talk a lot about faith and belief and practice as though they're really actually the same thing, but I don't think that's really the point, ...I see a lot of squalling in the blurbs on this page about, 'If they're all equally valid, how can we know anything, thus I must believe I am superior...'

I think that misses the point.

*Religion* says "X and such is vitally and exclusively important."

People may need to believe they are doing the proper thing.. But I think this is nothing to do with the part of the heart where faith and reverence and a will-to-learn-better come from.

People are taught that faith is conditional and contingent on so many things.....

What if it's not, and we're just being humans about it?

Tampa,

Another good question. Jesus said that lest a man be born-again, he cannot see the kingdom of Heaven. Being born-again is a difficult thing to describe to someone who is not born-again. It's as drastic and emotional as the first time you were born, you go from darkness into light, you are given a new nature, where you once loved certain sins, you will now despise all sin and thirst after righteousness.

Being born-again is kind of the gavel drop of the Judge, which says, you are free from the judgment. It is mirrored in nature by the caterpillar going into a cocoon and emerging as a butterfly. It starts out as a gross little worm-like creature, bound by the law of gravity, and emerges from the cocoon, after God has done a great work in it, as a graceful and beautiful butterfly, loosed from the confines of the law. The Bible says that if any man repents and believes, he is a new creature, old things are passed away, behold, all things are become new. The caterpillar cannot enact this change on it's own, it doesn't understand how the change occurs in it, but when it emerges it bears the mark of God on its newfound wings.

As for the payment of sin on the cross. Imagine I offer you a million dollars, all you have to do is accept the million dollars. If you don't receive this gift, it will remain in my possession and you will get no part of it. While the fine that Christ paid was infinite, there are a lot of people who willfully reject the payment, don't know about the payment, and or misunderstand the payment. You must repent and ask God for the forgiveness He has purchased for you through the sacrifice of His Son.

It's the easiest thing in the world for me to tell you to do, it's the hardest thing you'll ever do. The Bible likens it to dying to yourself, giving up on your way of doing things and following God. But I promise you, as absolutely difficult as it is, it's not an offer you want to reject.

Thanks, Canyon

But I still don't think I understand your position.

Is it that all of mankind (whether Christian or not) was saved from damnation by Jesus' death on the cross, is it that each person will be saved from damnation only if they truly and honestly repent, or is it that both these are required?

Dear Thomas,

If your view of God is right, what is the point of you preaching it?

Let the people have their sin for a season.

On the otherhand, if God is who He says He is, and He told Moses, "I AM who I say I am." then you're in a whee bit of trouble.

Tampa,

That is a very reasonable question, and my answer is, no, Christianity is not the only way to God.

It is appointed once for a man to die, and then the judgment. On that day, you will spend at least some amount of time in Heaven standing before the Great White Throne.

God will open the book of your conscience and see everytime you've disrespected your parents, everytime you did something deceitful to the detriment of someone else, everytime you were unfaith to your spouse in flesh or in spirit. Remember that God considers hatred as murder (Matt 5:21), lust as adultery (5:28), lying lips are an abomination (Proverbs 12:22), and all of these will have their part in the lake of fire. (Revelation 21:8)

Deeds done in darkness will be brought to the light, and just as on earth, a sliding scale of judgment will not save a murderer no matter how much good he's done, neither will the good you've done save you from your transgressions. A rapist who painted eldery peoples' houses won't stand any better than a rapist who didn't paint eldery people's houses.

The punishment for a transgression against an infinitely holy God is an eternity in Hell, where you will forever pay your fine, but never pay all of it. God will be glorified both for being patient and giving you the opportunity to repent, and for being perfectly just.

Or you can realize that while an infinite punishment was due, Jesus Christ paid that fine on the Cross at Calvary when the eternal Trinity was torn in twain. The Bible says that Jesus Christ was made sin for us, your sin was on His back and when He was separated from His Father, your sin was separated from the Father.

But just as if a criminal can pay his fine, but shows no remorse and will continue breaking the law, the judge won't let him go; so is it with God, that while your fine is paid, an unrepentant heart will keep you in damnation.

Repent, therefore, of your wickedness, and embrace the God who loved you so much that He DIED for you.

In closing, ask yourself this important question, when your religion brings you into the presence of God, will you face Him as your Saviour, or as your Judge?

TO CANYON SHEARER AND THE REST OF HUMANITY:

You wrote, "The true God will send lots of people to Hell, and be rightly justified in doing so, just as an earthly judge is justified in sending a serial killer to the electric chair. Transgression demands justice.", you do not know what you are talking about, God has sent no one to hell, you send yourself to hell and you build it yourself.

Do you realize that Jesus, God-Incarnate Himself, went to hell? Jesus took upon Himself the sins of all humanity, so He experienced not only hell but also spiritual death that is how He won the keys to the netherworld and He will use them in due time.

God has a Plan and just because you don't approve of it, does not mean that God has to get your permission to not only have it but to see it thru to fruition. God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable, the captives shall be released and the dead shall rise. It is important what you do and why you do it and what you know.

Maybe some of the people that call themselves "christian" should leave the judgment to God. God is a Being of Pure Love, a Consuming Fire of Pure Love. Will His Love burn you or caress you, think about it?

Ultimately, It will caress everyone, God's Plan is for all of His children, Humanity. Do you have any idea what christianity is suppose to be?

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Canyon - In your opinion, is your path to God (I assume you're Christian) the only valid path? Or are there different paths that are valid and that would also lead others to God?

Wiccan,

Of course you like what Chip wrote, he's created a false idol and false idea of Christianity which you feel comfortable ignoring.

What a wise post from Rajan Zed.

He is totally correct:

the thing virtually all religions have in commonn is that once they get institutionalized, they tend to exhibit the failings that he outlined.

And I will second the observation that
Canyon calling the Dalai ignorant is rich.

Chip posted this on another thread, and everytime I read Canyon I think of it:

"I've always found the "love they neighbor as thyself" bit rather ironic in the context of a faith where people are taught to hate themselves so thoroughly, because they are worthless sinners from birth who must grovel for forgiveness. Self-loathing is a rotten foundation on which to build a sense of morality. To equate that with love is profoundly disturbing."

It's just as disturbing to equate it with wisdom.

and proud of it. :)

The cross if foolishness to them that are perishing.

Have a nice day.

P.S. Repent.

Canyon Shearer:

"Where the Dalai Lama is most ignorant is in his view of why we need love, compassion and forgiveness; not from men, but from God."

You, out of all people, call the Dalai Lama ignorant???

And that just before your usual pathetic drivel that you posted?

Sorry, but tried to say it politely, but I couldn't find a way: You are a bombastic, dim-witted fool!

The Dalai Lama, in his supercilious statement, proves how little he knows of the relationship between spiritual matters and this life.

All religions do teach love, compassion, and forgiveness, but he has no idea what the ultimate purpose is. To live your best life now? That’s hilarious. Our lives are but a vapor that exists for a little bit and then vanishes, the living soon forget the dead, no matter how much they say they will remember.

Where the Dalai Lama is most ignorant is in his view of why we need love, compassion and forgiveness; not from men, but from God. In saying that religion is about our daily lives, the Dalai Lama has created a false religion designed with the soul purpose of taking the mind off of the eternity which we all stand on.

If you were standing beside a 1,000 foot cliff, and I didn’t have the answer of how to get you off of it safely, I would suggest you look away too. But to try to distract you with promises that if you’ll live with love, compassion, and forgiveness, the cliff will pose for less of a disaster; but the truth is, the cliff is as deadly as poison, one drop will kill you, and you should make sure you’re ready.

Ask yourself, “Will my God send people to Hell?” If you answered no, then you’re right, your god won’t send people to Hell, because he doesn’t exist, you’ve created a false idol in your image which appeases your conscience.

The true God will send lots of people to Hell, and be rightly justified in doing so, just as an earthly judge is justified in sending a serial killer to the electric chair. Transgression demands justice.

If you’ve ever killed someone, God sees you as a murderer, if you’ve ever raped someone, God sees you as a rapist, if you’ve ever stolen anything, God sees you as a thief, if you’ve ever lied, God sees you as a liar, and if you’ve ever used God’s name as a cuss-word, God sees you as a blasphemer and His enemy.

The Bible is clear that murderers, idolaters, adulterers and all liars will have their place in the lake of fire. God takes sin seriously.

But God is big on love, compassion, and forgiveness; but He is also big on justice. Your transgression requires a punishment. Just as a serial killer deserves death, the Bible says that if you hate someone, you are a murderer, and the punishment is Hell eternal; eternal because you are paying an infinite fine against an infinite God.

But here is love, not that you loved God, but that He loved you, He sent His Son as a substitutionary atonement. Your death was due for your transgressions, but Jesus Christ, who lived a perfect, sinless life, paid your fine. The only perfect man ever to live, Jesus Christ willfully gave up His life to be tried on a false charge and hung on a cross. He went through the most heinous punishment imaginable so that by His stripes you could be healed.

God is big on love, compassion, and forgiveness, and because He paid for your soul on the cross at Calvary, you can’t be adopted into His loving family, you will inherit eternity, but most importantly, you will be forgiven bases on the fact that Jesus paid your fine.

God demands that you repent of your sins, turn away from iniquity and turn towards righteousness, and place your trust in Jesus Christ that He will give you love, compassion, and forgiveness.

Or do as the Dalai Lama and follow a false idol, and perish in your sins.