Nations Should Pray in Unison

First World Conference on Untouchability, London, June 6-10, 2009

http://www.iheu.org/world-conference-on-untouchability

Farnaz1Mansouri1,
i guess we're just not communicating or something. i certainly don't take any papal pronouncements seriously (but you gotta admit - he's got a great hat!). i don't take anything any religious leader says seriously (unless it happens to comport with humanist and logical thought). my conception of "abrahamic" is not based on anything the pope said. it's not very complicated. "abraham" is mentioned in jewish, christian, and muslim texts. i've never heard anyone dispute that those are "abrahamic" religions.

in the other thread you hinted that you had more to say on the subject. perhaps sometime, when you have time, you can explain how judeochrislam is not "abrahamic".

Walter in Falls Church,

Your logic here escapes me, but I will say that the Christians/Catholics do not spend much time on Abraham.

You are free to accept whatever Papal pronouncements you wish, of course. However, I do not appreciate them being foisted on me along with "grave danger" threats.

I posted more to you on this in reply to your similar question/and other assertions on R. Hirschfield's thread.

Farnaz1Mansouri1,
again, i say, "huh"? jews, christians and muslims all have scripture involving "abraham" - that makes them "abrahamic". what's so hard to understand about that? of course there are doctrinal differences, but they all revere (or at least talk about in scripture) ABRAHAM.

There is no "Abrahamic" God, so please spare me and everyone who thinks this ridiculous pronouncement by the former Pope of the Catholics. His Whateverness declared Judaism, Islam and Catholicism "Abrahmic," in one feel-good-tell-it-like-it-ain't-breath, and in the other opined that all who did not accept the divinity of the Catholics' Son of God, via a virgin, back in the day, in grave danger.

Judaism, Islam, and Christianity are RADICALLY different. Spare me the Vaticans' opining. It has nothing to do with anyone other than the Catholics.

Rajid,

The Dalit, the enslaved, literally, of India are about to speak, as I have posted almost endlessly on this thread. You know quite well of whom I refer, the sweepers, for instance, who die before they reach thirty, the men and women you will not allow into your Brahmin Temple.

The bonded labor, et al. It will soon be over, Rajid. Worldwide outrage is on the way. Big time.

Your silence has been deafening.

Worldwide outrage is on the way.

First “World Conference on Untouchability” to be held in London, 9-10 June 2009

u.org/first-%E2%80%9Cworld-conference-untouchability%E2%80%9D-be-held-london-9-10-june-2009

norriehoyt and others,

A few basic basic facts about Hinduism:

1. Hinduism is a broad term created recently in English which includes the philosophy, religion, culture, and social issues related to people living in India.
2. The extremely diverse religious rituals, culture, and social history that gets mixed into "Hinduism" is very difficult to grasp and is confusing to most outsiders.
3. The underlying philosophy of Hinduism is Vedanta.
4. This is the essence of Hindu religion and culture, and it is worth learning more about.
5. The philosophy is MONISTIC. It is not polytheistic (often misunderstood) or monotheistic (like Abrahamic religions).
6. The monism of Vedanta means nonduality or oneness. This is a profoundly different concept than the basic dualism that we are familiar with in Western philosophy and Abrahamic religions.
7. The Ultimate Reality (Brahman, conciousness) is nondual and it is the Self. But ignorance creates the misperception of multiple forms of existence.
8. So, there is NO god separate from your own true self. This is very different from the Abrahamic and Western dualistic concept of God as separate from man and the universe.
9. However, in the process of ridding one's ignorance and becoming One (enlightenment), a person may need the concept of a separate God. This is the universally conditioned Consciousness called Ishvara - the laws of the Universe. This is the closest thing to the Western idea of God.
10. Belief in god is voluntary in Vedanta and Hinduism, and is recognized as a transient necessity for some. This dualistic concept of god helps develop humility and devotion, but it must ultimately be rejected in Hinduism.
11. All the descriptions of Hinduism having multiple gods are incorrect. They reflect a confusion about the numerous deities and avatars that are not gods but manifestations of the one, nondual, ultimate reality (Brahman).

I could go on, but I hope this helps.

Anyway, Norrie, ....it's kind of more complicated and simpler than that... Hindu folks in general don't tend to appreciate someone like me trying to spell it out any more than they appreciate Christians saying it's 'really' the 'God of Abraham' character they mean when they say 'God,' .... and, in fact, 'Hindu' culture is a fair bit older and more historically complicated and baggage-filled than some Abrahamics claim is the whole age of the world.

Don't claim to fully 'get' it, never mind define it: I've just kind of got a different parallax on the, shall we say, spiritual 'languages' involved than how people usually kind of talk past each other.

It's kind of not like, Norrie, that the act of praying is signing on some 'dotted line' in the way Abrahamics make of such things 'conversions' and 'allegiances.'

It's more like paying attention. If you cared to join in, you could take the time and pay attention to your own thoughts, ...the worlds don't hang on whether or not you believe something in your head, ...you might, in fact, be doing *exactly* what you're 'supposed' to be doing by any number of views of 'God'... No reason you can't ...even if you you just conceptually , be in the universe with a sense others are doing it at the same time, either.

You're not on trial you know?

I digress. Anyway. No, they're not Abrahamics with to-some-funkier statues. :) If there was something to this-all, you'd kind of expect some different shapes, wouldn't you? :)

"Please excuse my ignorance, but do Hindus pray to the Abrahamic God?"

If I can try and bridge a bit between Abrahamics and otherwise, no, not as such: though you could say when Hindus say 'God' and certain Abrahamics say 'God,' (Even on the rare occasions when *I* say 'God' per se, then one might presume they're indistiguishable, though the Hindu conception actually came first.

They ain't talking about a God who takes sides, per se.

That is.

"I assume not, so to whom or what do they pray?"

Now you get picky about the postal code? :)

"Do they believe that the recipient(s) of their prayers grant(s) their petitions?
norriehoyt"

As well as I understand, the general notion within Hinduism at large is that 'smaller' or more specific figures are Them that gives more personal attention, ...but you don't conflate a particular tribal character with The Big Ineffable (Will) or whatever concept of that you have.

A lot of that sounds like Pagan 'Soft polytheism' as we bany about the term.

For what it's worth to say. But I guess that's kind of the point.

The point to *not* think you got is that there's a choice between some kind of 'wishiwashiness' or absolute belief in 'God' as a bunch of rival, jealous, domineering *characters, as most atheists seem to project when trying to be *multiculturally-atheist.*

It's usually not actually multicultural.

Actually praying with some Hindu folks is actually pretty neat, with a little explanation. Novel experience for we Westerners where it's not about submission or even unknowingly like *signing* something. :)

This is well-meaning but sadly naive essay. Sure it sounds nice, let's all pray together, no matter what god(s) we're praying to.

But what if, as is very likely, the guy next to me is praying for worldly power over me so that he can abuse me and terrorize my children? What if he believes that I'm less human than him and that my rights should be limited? What if he is fervently and sincerely asking for me or my friends and loved ones to be struck dead for our sins?

Here in America we have fundamentalist "christians" desperately seeking to hold onto the power to tell us all what is good and what is evil and how we have to live. As we can see from pro-gay marriage gains in recent weeks, the fundamentalists are not interested in living with their neighbors unless the neighbors follow fundamentalist rules.

Reminds me of a line from an old Smiths song:

"The death of a disco dancer
Well it happens a lot 'round here.
And if you think that Peace
Is a common goal
That goes to show
How little you know."

Please excuse my ignorance, but do Hindus pray to the Abrahamic God?

I assume not, so to whom or what do they pray?

Do they believe that the recipient(s) of their prayers grant(s) their petitions?

"We need to learn to pray together despite our seriously different traditions, which are simply different perceptions and responses to Ultimate Reality"

I don't believe in god(s) or a spiritual realm, therefore I don't believe in the value or meaning of prayer... what exactly should I pray when we are all in unison?