Do Egyptians want both democracy and a role for religion in their government?

Yasser reprimands me thus:
“There is nothing in our "Theology" that says kings and tyrants are not answerable to their subjects. Where do you get your facts from?”"
Moi: I get them from your scriptures. Below is a sample.

Hadith - Al-Bukhari and Muslim, and other narration by at-Tirmidhee (no. 2867) and Ahmad (4/130).
Allaah’s Messenger (SAAWS) said, "He who sees from his ruler something he dislikes, let him be patient with him, for he who splits away from the Jamaa’ah by a handspan and then dies, dies a death of Jaahiliyyah" and in a narration, "then he has thrown off the yoke of Islaam from his neck."

Again
“And by the way, what about all the mighty Jewish Kings? Solomon, David et al were they answerable to anyone else except God?”

Moi:
What if what you claim is correct? Those lived almost three thousand before your prophet. When had one wrong ever excused another wrong?

and while we are at it.....which of the Israeli Prime Ministers wasn't a war criminal?

Those “rulers” are according to their theology, should answer to no one but to Allah, which means to nobody. Otherwise how could it be that this pharaoh accumulates a 70 billion-dollar wealth when 40% of his people live on less than two dollars per day.
---abrahamhab1

Funny, watching all the news and analysis coming from Zionists and neocons I thought they were all in love with this "Pharoah". Who is this resident Zionist of On Faith trying to fool. Btw, it would be nice if you read a bit about the theology you mouth off. There is nothing in our "Theology" that says kings and tyrants are not answerable to their subjects. Where do you get your facts from? And by the way, what about all the mighty Jewish Kings? Solomon, David et al were they answerable to anyone else except God?

“Mubarak is a vicious tyrant and has been one for decades. He has always put himself before his country just as he is doing now.”

The Muslim culture is tyrannical by virtue of the fact that it is based on the belief that all its aspects are based on the literal word of Allah which is unchangeable and fit for all times and places. Which of the Muslim rulers beginning with their prophet who was also a king was not ruthless and tyrannical? Those “rulers” are according to their theology, should answer to no one but to Allah, which means to nobody. Otherwise how could it be that this pharaoh accumulates a 70 billion-dollar wealth when 40% of his people live on less than two dollars per day.

Why are the borders of Islam around the world bloody ones? Wherever Islam borders a country that is not Islam the borders are exceedingly bloody. Why? I'll believe Islam works with a Democracy when I see it. Til now, I have not seen it.
---jonswitzer

One often hears such snarky headless comments from the disciples of Rev. Sean Hannity and Rev. Glen Beck just after they have delivered their hour long fox shows.

I think some of the posters here are confused regarding making comparisons of Egyptian revolution to Iranian Revolution etc. If anyone reads the history of revolutions.....no two revolutions are exactly the same ever. It is not a switch that could be turned on or off on the whims of mullah's or liberals or socialists or other revolutionists. All revolutions occur under their own peculiar circumstances and hence have outcomes that cannot be predicted beforehand. Muslim Brotherhood in all probability is just as much radical Islamic as the Republican party is radical christian (John McCain called the democracy movement in Egypt a fast spreading 'Virus'). Considering the crux of this movement is made of youth brought together by social media who already have the example of Iran before them, they can tell the Akhwan people to get lost if they become too overbearing just like they are telling Mubarak. Its obvious that a lot naysayers to democracy in middle east on this blog just dislike muslims in general so their opinions need to be taken into consideration with a pinch of salt. Why cant we expect the new Islamist government to rule on the lines of the Islamists in Turkey whose inclusive government has clearly fused together modernity, capitalism and Islam quite expertly. I remember they were looked with similar apprehension when they came into power but AKP has been far more tolerant, honest and nationalistic than the secular governments before them. So atleast be honest enough in calling a spade a spade. Mubarak is a vicious tyrant and has been one for decades. He has always put himself before his country just as he is doing now. Just because he has been a poodle of West and Israel does not mean Egyptian people have to bear with him forever. This is the clear context in which this uprising has to be viewed. What will evolve in future is not that clear to predict.

Why are the borders of Islam around the world bloody ones? Wherever Islam borders a country that is not Islam the borders are exceedingly bloody. Why? I'll believe Islam works with a Democracy when I see it. Til now, I have not seen it.

The author wrote: "in the United States it is axiomatic that Islam is inherently opposed to democracy and that Muslims are incapable of reconciling democratic and Islamic values. Never mind that the same people who scoff at the notion that religion could play no role in the emerging democracies in the Middle East are the same people who demand that religion must play a role in America's democracy." Very true, Reza, sometimes I feel that I shout on the face of those "all-knowing" people. But we need to explore and expose the genesis of the narrative that Islam does not support democracy. I think the narrative primarily comes from the oil-rich Middle-Eastern monarchies and gets quoted by people like Mike Huckabee. Also, alarmingly, those oil-rich countries systematically create their proxies in Muslim majority countries and Western societies to propagate the mantra that Islam and democracy cannot go together. It's obvious that those monarchies will not be the fans of democracy. But interestingly, the "democracy-loving" people like Huckabee gong (they will even invade a country to promote democracy!), use that narrative because they do not believe that democracy should be established in Middle East and other Muslim societies. They will bring "stability" when it comes to democracy. Unfortunately, too many well-intentioned people in this country uncritically accept that narrative.

Yonkers, New York
05 February 2011

There are in fact millions of Americans, Christian evangelicals, ultra-conservatives, die-hard Republicans, Tea Partyers, and many Democrats, who truly and sincerely believe that Religion--the Christian religion, of course!--should provide basic enlightenment and guidance to public policy and action in America.

But, except for the likes of Rick Santorum, Mike Huckabee and Mitt Romney--who happens to be a Mormon--these Americans are all too conscious of the Establishment Clause of the U.S. Constitution--and thus prefer to play it safe and not openly come out openly in favor of the idea.

In publicly expressing their opinion that the Muslim Brotherhood will highjack the ongoing "People Power" demonstrations in Cairo and elsewhere in Egypt, Rick Santorum and Mike Huckabee are simply projecting their own wishes on the role Religion has a right to play in American politics and government.

But, of course, as Reza Aslan here points out, both are way off the mark. The driving force behind the demonstrations in Cairo are the Egyptian youth who are yearning for a better life than that which the Mubarak regime has been able to give the Egyptian people during all the 30 years that he has been in power ostensibly as "President" but actually as a Dictator.

Additionally, and in fact simultaneously, the Egyptian youth, now comprising a great percentage of Egypt's present population of some 80 million, are demanding that they be freed from oppression and be given a chance to live in liberty and freedom.

Mariano Patalinjug
MarPatalinjug@aol.com

The primary illusion on all sides is the focus on what America thinks. Hosni Mubarak is in power because Egyptians put him there. What happens to him and who succeeds him will be primarily decided within Egypt. The history of political transformations suggests skepticism in anyone's ability to predict the direction a major change will take. There is little doubt of a large segment of the Arab world's attachment to ideas and behaviors rooted in religion that are no longer acceptable in the West. How Egypt turns out remains to be seen. But, I would not bet heavily on Mohamed El Baradei. The level of flexibility and balance of political power within Egypt's large community of religious fundamentalists remains to be seen. Nevertheless, there is nothing irrational in concern about the impact they might have. In any case, it is the Egyptians themselves who are going to determine the outcome. If those who want a democracy fail, it will be their own fault. When and if they produce a government that is both theocratic and sympathetic to Western values, they can brag about the result.

The primary illusion on all sides is the focus on what America thinks. Hosni Mubarak is in power because Egyptians put him there. What happens to him and who succeeds him will be primarily decided within Egypt. The history of political transformations suggests skepticism in anyone's ability to predict the direction a major change will take. There is little doubt of a large segment of the Arab world'sa attachment to ideas and behaviors rooted in religion that are no longer acceptable in the West. How Egypt turns out remains to be seen. But, I would not bet heavily on Mohamed El Baradei. The level of flexibility and balance of political power within Egypt's large community of religious fundamentalists remains to be seen. Nevertheless, there is nothing irrational in concern about the impact they might have. In any case, it is the Egyptians themselves who are going to determine the outcome. If those who want a democracy fail, it will be their own fault. When and if they produce a government that is both theocratic and sympathetic to Western values, they can brag about the result.

Notice how U.S. news coverage of the Crisis in Egypt has disappeared from you TV screen. After 7 days of protests, the American people are sick of watching it. Obama did not make the best use of the Crisis and looks weak to both sides. Consider two comparisons to understand the Crisis.

Compare the President of Syria to the President Mubarak. The chain reaction of “protesters” was to hit Yemen, Jordan and Syria. The Presidential leadership in Syrian stopped the protests from the “get go”. The leadership in Syria is strong and would not accept an uncontrolled rebellion of “protester” to make an attempt to overthrow government by international news coverage supported by political leftist President Obama. Even the womanizing President of Italy spoke out in defense President Egyptian President Mubarak.

The Cairo uprising could be compared to Tehran or Beijing. The “protesters and Islam Revolutionary Guard in Tehran “toppled” the established aristocracy regime of the Shah. Jimmy Carter prematurely “sounded off” on human rights and democracy that quickly followed by hostage taking of Americans and you know the rest of the story.
Americans should serious consider “separation of church and state” and the difference between secular democracy as the U.S. touts and the theocracy established in Iran 30 years ago. The Islamic Republic of Iran announces the Muslim theocratic nations will follow the Sharia law of Islam to punish adultery by stoning? Read the following to understand the difference between the old law and the new spirit of God reveled by Jesus Christ as found in the Holy Bible.
And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, they say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
This they said, tempting him that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them,

He that is without sin among you let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those, thine accusers? Hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

The primary illusion on all sides is the focus on what America thinks. Hosni Mubarak is in power because Egyptians put him there. What happens to him and who succeeds him will be primarily decided within Egypt. The history of political transformations suggests skepticism in anyone's ability to predict the direction a major change will take. There is little doubt about a large segment of the Arab world's attachment to ideas and behaviors rooted in religion that are no longer acceptable in the West. How Egypt turns out remains to be seen. But, I would not bet heavily on Mohamed El Baradei. The level of flexibility and balance of political power within Egypt's large community of religious fundamentalists remains to be seen. Nevertheless, there is nothing irrational in concern about the impact they might have. In any case, it is the Egyptians themselves who are going to determine the outcome. If those who want a democracy fail, it will be their own fault. When and if they produce a government that is both theocratic and sympathetic to Western values, they can brag about the result.

It's like rock paper scissors. Hateful violent Islam always beats democracy. Friendly dictators are better than the hate filled followers of the child raping mass murderer mohamad.

It's like rock paper scissors. Hateful violent Islam always beats democracy. Friendly dictators are better than the hate filled followers of the child raping mass murderer mohamad.

You can live in a democracy and practice religion, but you cannot have religious laws govern the country.

You will constantly be at war with your own people, your neighboring countries, your lawmakers, everyone will be the enemy. This has been tried. Call the pope. Can you say "inquistion", "crusades", Jihad"?

When it comes to democracy and religion in the Arab world it is much to early to tell. One can only hope at this point that the Arab world is capable of it's own evolution into the 21st century with a place for religion and democracy.

Why should Santorum and Huckabee decry the possible interjection of religion into Egypt's government when they, among others, try at every turn to interject religious edicts into our own government and its decisions?

The people of Egypt will decide their own future. We have enough problems of our own to solve -

25 Muslims attacked a professor in Kerala, Indian and cut off his right hand for "insulting" prophet mohamed.

"He (professor) said they accused him of mocking the prophet Mohammed in an exam paper in which he called a delusional man who talked to God "Mohammed."

"I never thought this violence could happen in Kerala," said Joseph, sitting in his living room and struggling to write with his stiff, swollen hand, which was re-attached after two 16-hour surgeries. He was also stabbed in the leg during the attack and now uses a wheelchair.

Joseph said he had not intended to insult the prophet.

Since the attack, three police officers guard the house 24 hours a day. They sleep on cots on the veranda.
" From Wash. Post World section.

You can not separate Muslim from Islam. And to know what Islam is all about pick up a copy of koran from the local library and see what a hate and violence filled vitriol it is.

We should not forget the role the founder of Islam, plays in the Muslim societies including Egypt. For Muslims the god they worship, Allah, acted thru Muhammad as recorded in the hadiths an dthe biographies and Allah spoke thru the Quran. For now let us not waste time on whether Muhammad created the Arabic idol Allah or vice versa.

Muhammad had his opponents. And he was ruthless with them. One was a poetess Asma bint Marwan who exposed Muhammad as a fraud and a fake and asked her fellow Meccans to oppose him.

Muhammad rewarded Asma for her criticism by having her murdered while she was asleep with her infants.

Such is the example that was set by Muhammad. If the current dictator Mubarak leaves and Islamic dictator will surely take his place. One byproduct will be the massacre of the Christians who number about 15 million.

It is wise, as well, to consider that Saudi Arabia & co. are the heaviest investors in BP, upon which the UK depends for survival and which controls that of the Middle East that Iran does not.

BP bided its time, until fear set in that the Suez Canal might not be preserved for them no matter what they did. Ditto Exxon-Mobile, Conoco-Philips. The hint given to the notorious BP, installer of Shah, destroyer of Iran, hated universally in the ME, including Israel, was the setting aflame of tankers in Suez.

BP is now busily at work on a Mumbai-to-London Pipeline. Unfortunately, they will not drown in it.

The next time US and Europe want a dictator for life, let them set him up in England.

PLEASE GO TO YOUTUBE FOR THIS IMPORTANT INTERVIEW WITH TARIQ RAMADAN, SON OF FOUNDER OF MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD, MUSLIM ICON, INTELLECTUAL HEAVYWEIGHT, BRILLIANT.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NW-OOInaOBE

THE SITUATION, WHICH IS ONE I'VE LONGED FOR LO THESE MANY YEARS, BLOGGED ON HERE TIRELESSLY, MAY, IN FACT, NOT BE WHAT IT SEEMED. UNTIL TODAY, I BELIEVED IT WAS A LEGITIMATE DEMAND FOR FREEDOM, WIDELY REPRESENTATIVE OF EGYPT'S WISHES. THAT MAY NOT BE THE CASE.

THERE IS A WAR AFOOT BETWEEN SAUDI ARABIA AND OPEC AGAINST IRAN AND ITS VARIOUS EMBEDDED ENTITIES AND SATELLITES.

DEMONSTRATIONS HAVE BEEN RUTHLESSLY CRUSHED BY AHMENDINEJAD IN IRAN.

KING ABDULLAH, SAUDI ARABIA, AS WE KNOW, TELEPHONED MUBARAK PLEDGING HIS SUPPORT FOR HIM. DITTO, GADDAFI.

JORDAN BLAMES IRAN FOR UNREST. IRANIAN-FINANCED, SYRIAN BACKED HEZBOLLAH, WHICH HAS A BASE IN SYRIA THAT THE DUPLICITOUS ASAD COULD NOT REMOVE, IS MAKING WAVES IN SYRIA.

IRAN FINANCES THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD WHICH IS A HUGE TRANSNATIONAL ORGANIZATION. SEE WIKIPEDIA.

I PRAY THAT MUBARAK LEAVES, BUT THAT THIS EGYPTIAN NEAR-EQUIVALENT OF "SHAH" IS NOT REPLACED BY HIS ISLAMIST EQUIVALENT.

There can be no democracy without secularism.
This is why only infantile people think that there can be democracy in the Middle East, just like that.
In Islam, only Allah has the right to legislate.
There is no "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's" .

There is no Caesaropapism either. The Caliph should be the head of both political and religious power, or the council of the Guardians (clerics) should control the political process (in Shia Islam).
Clerics, especially if they are descendents of the Prophet, can wield military and political power and can lead powerful militias (Sayyid Muqtada Al Sadr and the Mahdi Army).

This is why in the Afghan Constitution (an islamic "democracy") is written that no law should contradict Sharia Law (therefore only Allah has the right to legislate), and this is why the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights signed by most islamic countries stipulates that no Human Rigts law should contradict Sharia Law.

Now, let's see what egyptian muslims think of secularism and Islam :

95% of muslims in Egypt think that Islam should play a large role in politics:
http://pewglobal.org/files/2010/12/2010-muslim-01-03.png

20% of muslims in Egypt like Al Qaeda and Bin Laden:
http://pewglobal.org/files/2010/12/2010-muslim-01-06.png

Based on those who say there is a struggle between modernizers and islamists in Egypt, 27% identify with modernizers, and 59% with islamists:
http://pewglobal.org/files/2010/12/2010-muslim-01-11.png

I agree with Reza, although for different reasons than his. While Reza may think that it is a good thing for Islam to play a role in politics simply because, well, he is Muslim and actually believes in the poison found in the Quran and hadith, I think that allowing parties like the Brotherhood to start running a country based on the Quran is the surest way to prove how in error Islam is. I look at every Islamic state (Afghanistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, etc) and see systems that offer nothing to their people in any meaningful way. I see unhappy or oppressed people living under systems that are simply not sustainable. I encourage the people of Egypt to figure out what they want, try it out, and if they choose an Islamic state the US and Europe will benefit from the Exodus of all of the free-thinking and reasonable intellectuals of the country. We will get their scientists and mathematicians who will have the option of moving abroad, and Egypt will be left with the people who are either 7th century ideologues or just simply can't get out. The best thing for the US is to just stay out of it, let the Arabs, whether they are Egyptians or Tunisians, figure out their own solutions even if that means standing on the sidelines and watching them slaughter one another before they come up with a solution. Not our business. Oh, and we should absolutely stop sending any and all aid in any form whatsoever to any despotic regime, theocractic or otherwise.

"Despite the wide array of political and religious views on display on the streets of Cairo, Giza, Alexandria, and Suez, the one thing about which the overwhelming majority of Egyptians agree - 95 percent according to a 2010 Pew Research Center poll - is that Islam should play a role in the country's politics. "

That 2010 Pew Poll revealed some other things that make me less comfortable with the idea that the people of Egypt want a democracy of our prefered type:

20% had a favorable view of Al Queda and Osama Bin Laden, about in the middle of the nations polled (Nigeria 49, Indonesai 23, Turkey 4, Lebanon 3)

Among those who see a struggle between Modernizers and Fundamentalists, more Eyptians 59% indentified with the latter than any other nation (Turkey 11, Pakistan 28, Nigeria 58, Jordan 38)

82% of Egyptians favored stoning adulterors and 84% favor the death penalty for leaving Islam. These were comparable to Pakistan (82,76) and well ahead of the other nations in the study.

These results do no suggest that the demonstrators in Egypt are after the same things the ones in Tunisia are.

http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/

The voters of Pennsylvania threw Santorum out of office because he's a nutjob religious fanatic. He's a creationist, and very probably a dominionist. He is an evil man, who gives a flyingsht what he thinks?
Posted by: eezmamata | January 31, 2011 12:03 PM
Report Offensive Comment
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

you use the word "creationist" like it's a immoral thing. He has every right to believe what he wants to, just like you have the right to believe what you want to.

You may not agree with his politics so why do you have to attack his belief?? what makes you 100 percent sure that he may not be right in his belief??

Egypt has erupted with protests and their current government may very well be coming to end. While there is hope that democracy might take root, we have to realize that democracy is only part of the solution.

One thing that makes America great is of course democracy. The idea of one person, one vote is very important, but democracy alone is not enough. This is what America learned when Hamas won the parliamentary elections in 2006 and took control of the Palestinian Authority. Sometimes the people you don’t like win elections.

You can read the rest of my response to this topic:
http://exm.nr/hlKujv

I will be responding to every issue posted in the 'On Faith' section. If you would like to be notified when my new response is up, please subscribe.

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Typical Santorum, really - Massive ignorance set about with pompous superiority. If he knew a bit more, of course, what he would have said was: "Because the CIA overthrew Mossadegh in 1953 and we put in place that savage old torturer and murderer, the Shah, then the backlash when it came was more extreme and instead of a moderate nationalist government we got Khomeini and then Ahmedinejad." Because of course the truth is that Khomeini and Ahmedinejad were both direct products of the stupidity of US foreign policy and the murderous savagery of the CIA. The list goes on and on; Hamas was fostered by Shin Bet and Mossad in the 1980s as a rival to Fatah and then when the PLO's corrupt warlords were deemed to be suitably docile bantustan leaders by the US, Israel and the Quartet, many Palestinians turned to the extreme represented by Hamas. in Egypt, as tear gas grenades and rubber bullets made in the US rain down on the population and tanks, guns and aircraft given to Egypt as 'military aid' are used to terrorise the population, if a hard-line Islamist faction takes over, who do you think will have been at least partly to blame? Santa Claus? Because the truth is that the US will *not* stop interfering, will *not* stop trampling on democracy when it's corporate interests (oil, gas, weapons) are concerned and will *not* accept that what goes around, comes around.. Any country that sees Tony Blair as a valid 'peace envoy' to the Middle East gets what it deserves!

kenzimmerman on 1/31/11 at 8:53 pm: "...Democracy reflects pragmatism in this recognition. That what is constructed is always incomplete, uncertain, and subject to failure. ... This is the real tension between what Mr. Huckabee and those like him want as a Christian government and a democractic government. This same tension exists anywhere religion becomes entangled with government. I'm not saying it can't be overcome. But I am saying it can't overcome once and for all, and overcoming it must be a task taken up each and every day."
______________________________________

Thanks, well said and thought provoking.

I think the tension is necessary and the problem is that we have become intellectually lazy and too easily distracted from the need to keep the tension going. We need to be willing to struggle with ideals of freedom that don't mesh with ideals of any one religion, and, in the U.S.A. pariticularly, with the ideals of Christianity.

It was the ideals of freedom that caused us to abolish slavery, even though the Bible doesn't condemn it and Jesus did not condemn it. The same ideals let us finally give equal rights to women, a step which many religious people thought was devilish and anti-Christian. We struggled with civil rights and integration of the military - we are still struggling with discrimination in society but we are better than we were, just not truly free of it yet. Two battles now that reflect the struggle between ideals of freedom/democracy and religion are with civil rights for gays and the rights of women to control the uses of their bodies.

Sometimes the ideals of freedom teach us something Christianity does not.

What Huckabee, She-who-must-not-be-named (wink-wink), and others of the same ilk want would be a big step backwards for this Republic. We need the voice of faith to help us find what is good and right - but the voice of faith is not sufficient and is sometimes wrong.

Can an Islamic republic be truly free? Maybe not, but Islamic people need a chance to find their own path out of the despotism of hereditary rulers, military dictatorships, and some despotic faith leaders. They must be willing to maintain the tension and sometimes find that equality and freedom on earth are not the same as the rules and limitations of the Qur'an.

The idea that a separation of state and religion is possible is a farce anyway. Consider a simple example of its current operation in the U.S., when we go before a Judge in Court we are presented with the opportunity (euphemism) to swear to tell the truth. What does this represent, who am I swearing to?

I believe that people confuse democracy with capitalism. Capitalism breeds greed and injustice, not democracy, or perhaps better said: it is mankind's nature to be greedy and unjust. On the other hand, it is Spirituality/Religion that can keep man's wicked nature in check. When we start listening first to the voice of God, the "God in Humanity," as Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite calls it, the politics of governing will fall naturally in place. Our country's (U.S.) founding fathers wrote the Constitution and Declaration Of Independence with the Universal laws of God, in mind.

Furthermore, I do not believe that science, specifically the theory of evolution and the big bang theory conflict with religious scripture. I'm no expert in either, but I can read; in combination with my spiritual intuition and recent attention to scripture, I've discovered that science and scripture support each other in explaining mankind's existence, earth and the universe.

Check out two publications which address Spirituality from these points of view. See "One Voice" and "Destiny," at: fewforeverwords.wordpress.com.

We should also withdraw our aid from all parties and, since the Egyptian population is way over the carrying capacity of the environment, that could kick off the hostilities.
---edbyronadams

I would second that very sincerely and while you're at it also take away your good for nothing mercenaries out of Saudi, Qatar, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan who done nothing but destabilize this region for more than two decades.

We should also withdraw our aid from all parties and, since the Egyptian population is way over the carrying capacity of the environment, that could kick off the hostilities.

YASSERYOUSUFI1, in the new Egypt, which will be more important, the will of Allah or the will of the people?

As far as Hosni Mubarak, I don't have a dog in that fight. I think we should withdraw the Seventh fleet, withdraw from Diego Garcia and let all the tribes in the region settle their blood feuds. Perhaps after their own Thirty Years War, compressed due to the presence of atomic weapons, they will learn the value of tolerance.

Note: ON: CONTROL OF THE SUEZ-CANAL BY ROGUE STATES: 2-Analysis via Thesis and a SYNTHESIS:

This is Me Own Analysis based on "Riot/Rebellion/Coup's Psychology": Which is a Science: FACT:

DEEPER PROPHECY: THAT;

IRAN & CO., want to control the SUEZ !!!!!!

(1)
They [Elders Of Al Taqiyah; Not Elders of Al Zionah] are getting help from Organized Soup/pools of TERRORISTS international that have infiltrated many of Egypt's Institutions since Ramadan 2010.

CHINA & N. Korea is believed to be, as coincidence, also the major Proxy-Player's behind the financing of these Players or shady Elements. FURTHERMORE:

The The NORTH ATLANTIC water Ways, at Earth's Northerns Ice Caps, will allow Shipping Activities to bye-pass much of Europes Traffic as a Alternate Rout of Passage instead of the Suez.(3 Months per Year).

iMPORTANTO: Please see:

http://maps.grida.no/go/graphic/northern-sea-route-and-the-northwest-passage-compared-with-currently-used-shipping-routes

EXCERPT: "Climate models project that summer sea ice in the Arctic Basin will retreat further and further away from most Arctic landmasses, opening new shipping routes and extending the navigation season in the Northern Sea Route by between two and four months. Previously frozen areas in the Arctic may therefore become seasonally or permanently navigable, increasing the prospects for marine transport through the Arctic and providing greater access to Arctic resources such as fish, oil and gas."

(2)
Islamic Brotherhoods recent (Jan.31st) Mouth Piece, Mr. [Dr. Of SATANity] MUHAMMAD GHONEIM et al, had FREUDIANLY SLIPPED and said, ".. >a>SUEZ Canal must be Controlled...." [Similar].

Please See U-TUBE's (a Fox5) Expose about: "TAKING DOWN AMERICA [Yoke} etc.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBQLsbagZWI

AND: me also saw an article in JERUPost via this 'Big-Mouth' Piece statement "DESTROY ISRAEL.." [Similar said].
-
Note: This is exclusively me own subliminal Analysis/Observation thus me OPINION. Not Fox, Not WAPO, not ONFAiTH et al.

Thank-ashame!

America is not a religious country! That's the biggest joke I heard in my life~!

This article is a nice piece of rhetorical BS using Huckabee and Santorum as strawmen for a speicious argument.

Civics 101 for Mr. Aslan: In America every individual is free to practice any religion. The government is NOT free to promote any religion.

Now Mr. Aslan, compare and contrast this with majority Muslim countries. Go down the list one by one.
Pakistan changed its name to the "Islamic Republic of Pakistan".
Afghanistan is the "Islamic Republic of Pakistan".
Iran is the "Islamic Republic of Iran".
Saudi Arabia is an "Islamic monarchy" that promotes Islam and discriminates against others.
Turkey is only a "Republic" but let's see how long that lasts not that the military has lost power and the Islamic party is in Power.
What exactly brings the OIC - Organization of Islamic Countries - believe in.
Many human rights reports are available documenting the treatment of minority religions in Islamci nations, including the "moderate" one like Malaysia & Indonesia. It is not impressive and nowhere near America, with Huckabee & Santorum.

How many Christian Republic of something are there or Hindu Republic or Buddist Republic.

Read the Constitution of some of these "Islamic countries". They specifically promote Islam as a state religion. Blashphemy laws are on the books with the death penalty. See Pakistan, sorry Islamic Republic of Pakistan - PBUH.

Don't want to confuse this progressive discussion with facts, but the reality is different from Mr. Aslan's rhetoric.

YASSERYOUSUFI1 you act like you're 15 years old, a petulant little brat yourself.

That's the las time I'll ever address you or your comments, I've wasted better time watching flies screw.
---eezmamata

Well that makes the two of us EM. Go back to delivering Pizzas. Geo-Politics is serious business not meant for juveniles like you.

YASSERYOUSUFI1 you act like you're 15 years old, a petulant little brat yourself.

That's the las time I'll ever address you or your comments, I've wasted better time watching flies screw.

I loved how Reza Aslan gave Sam Harris a Royal a$$ whupping hiding in this debate, watch it and decide for yourself who was the "petulant loser" in the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5og-hyD3A7A

Go to the youtube page direct if you want to watch the full debate**

As for war mongering, as soon as any other nation with such a huge advantage in military strength shows as much restraint, stuff it.
---edbyronadams

Time to wakeup and smell the coffee Mr. Gringo! The days when American CIA would topple democratically elected governments are way past you. You failed in Bolivia, you failed in Venezuela, you failed in Iran. With trillions of dollars in debt and all your credibility in drains its time for YOU to stuff your New World Order in your rear. Stop rooting for the dictator in Egypt. The Egyptians aren't out demanding Sharia Law to be imposed. They are out for their country to be democratic. Its their right whether they want religion to be a part of their society or not. Best you could do is lay your hands off Egypt, the world is sick of your double talk and treachery when it comes to democracy in Middle East. Everyone knows USA is the biggest enemy of Democracy in Middle East. All you americans on this blog are just reinforcing this fact.

A 'W i k i - T R U T H' Dispatch: JUST IN:

Note: This INFO is an account of what was said or heard & Extracted from five different Grave-Sites from the "Expired-Protesters" own Bereaved bloodline & Friend on site by our Gave-Vine Agents:

iNCAMERA(Opposite Revealtion): 5 separate Dispatches condensed into 1. [Cairo + Alexandria]:
-
Cairo: ".. This is to corroborate the theory that there are foreign [Islamic] agents behind these Rebellions. At 5 different Grave Sites [3 in Cairo areas & 2 in Alexander area's] WE heard & witnessed, From 2 Family Members in Cairo, that They have been Promised, at the Grave Sights {By Unknown Approachers, Not Egyptian, based on the Arabic used Maybe Syrian} Compensation for their brave Child's MARTYRDOM in the pro-Islamic Jihad struggle..." AND from 1 Family's Grave sight we heard, what sounded like a Turkish-Arab Family saying, that they was well taken care of for their Loved one's MATRYDOM..." [Similar].
-
Alexandria: "... There are Saudi Arabian elements at one of the grave sights of an expired elder woman that thanked and assured the bereaved that ALLAH and SAudi Arbia will build a structure with her name on it.." [Similar] AND ".. There are surely some Iranian or Alqaeda members who openly promised the young girls family compensation of $25,000 (Iranian) and that they will Name a Boulevard after her MARTYDOM.." [Similar].

".. FINAL ANALYSES: YES, There are Surely Islamic Elements disguised via Secular Strategy and secular Fronts & Cover-Ups that Perpetrated and orchestrated these Events. It is our Opinion that None Of These are Isolated Events nor that, the Left did not know what the right was doing. Well planned, well executed... There are also inside elements (in these Governments) who get payed and do Double dipping or indulge in Moon lighting activities for foregn elements. This is a Grave Matter.."[Similar].
_
Shame on the EGID/SSIB(Egypt)! Shame On The MOSSAD(Israel)! Shame On CIAFSB(Rus)! Shame on DGSE(fr)! Shame On M16(GB) & CO's.!

The 'West' is Been Snickerd/Snuckerd again by Ishlami Intel-Agency's; Fools! Ye Yo all been tricked. OYE...!

All this counter terrorism craparino's and yet, unlike 911, Ye Yo still Did Not Know these (Subsidized Ishlami) Rebellions//Riots/Protests.. was perking-up//being-Ventriloquy'd//Spun///coming etc..! or Did They? It is now Obvious THAT

The Ishlami Ummah's Spy Agency's, a/k/a "ELDERS OF AL TAQIAH" {NOt Elders of ZiONAH} have once again proven that SATAN via Ishlasmi-VersUS can grow their iShlami-Creep & Scare Locally, Neighborly & Internationally! So it's also obvious that The Ishlami Spy Agencies Are Slicker than the [SECULAR] Western Agencies!? i.e.:

Sneaky; Turks via JITEM; GIP(Saudi), GSD/MIS(Syria), Ja-el-Mu(Libya), SIU/CIA(Pak), MOIS(Iran), and rogues; ALQAEDA International, Islamic Brotherhood/BurkaHood

If you want to know how Reza Aslan is, look for him on youtube. He's been making a living as a professional debater against people such as Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris.

His debating style can best be described as petulant loser, and that's what he is, a loser.

It seems here in this editorial he's maintaining that style. In order to defend his particular religious delusions he feels he must maintain all religious delusions, including those of religions he does not believe.

We may have these debates among ourselves, but we can do that without this petulant little brat peeing in the water around us.

"Why dont you ban your gun toting, war mongering tea party first before mouthing off against Islamists in Egypt?"
____________________________________

Because gun toting, free speech, right to assembly is codified in our supreme law. As for war mongering, as soon as any other nation with such a huge advantage in military strength shows as much restraint, stuff it. Beside that, it must be the will of Allah, don't you think?

Now, the Islamic nations want to be as powerful and rich as the west. But, they want to stay Islamic. They do not understand that it is precisely Islam which prevents them from progressing. Most Islamic nations are culturally retarded because of Islam.

Islam is a totalitarian ideology. Let's compare it to national socialism:

(In)tolerance:

3:85 "And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be among the losers." Through this verse, according to the Orthodox teaching 2:256 "There is no compulsion in religion" null and void. Abrogated according to 2:106

Rule the world:

8:39: "And fight them until temptation is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do. "

9:33: He (Allah) it is Who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions, though the polytheists may be averse.

Muslims are Übermenschen, the supreme people:

3:110 "You are the best of the nations raised up for (the benefit of) men; you enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong and believe in Allah.... "

8:55 "For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are those who reject Him: They will not believe. ."

I could quote dozens inhuman verses about infidels, especially Jews and mushrikun. But I shall quote only one canonical Hadith about the Jews.

Jew-hatred:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour shall not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims shall kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: "Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!" But the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.

Sahih Muslim 41:6985 see, that is Sahih Muslim 41:6981, Sahih Muslim 41:6982, Sahih Muslim 41:6983, Sahih Muslim 41:6984, Sahih Bukhari 4:56:791

Islamic nations cannot progress because independent thinking is not wanted. Instead Muslims must submit without questioning.

5:101 "O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing."
5:102 "Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith."

Independent thinkers must fear for their life since because both blasphemy as well as apostacy are punishable by death according to Islamic law.

A nation cannot progress - find new and better answers - if questions may not be asked and thoughts expressed freely.

Dear Reza,

you as well as most Egyptians do not appear to understand what democracy means. Otherwise you wouldn't state such an absurd Idea of an islamic democratic state. That's an oxymoron.

Democracy means rule by the people. The people are the sole legislator of the state. This necessitates a free and autonomous people who legislate directly or through representation.

Islam means total submission to the will of Allah. Allah's law, shariah, rules supreme.

Autonomy - self legislation - and submission are antipodes. The Rule of Allah, theocracy, is incompatible with the Rule by the people, democracy.

You can't have it both ways, Islam and democracy. You have to choose. The pew pole suggests that the muslim brotherhood, a terrorist organization, shall take over power.

Egyptians will find out, but I fear that they shall opt for Islam.

KEEP ALL RELIGIONS OUT OF USA GOVERNMENT PERIOD.

Is this guy a scholar of religions? OMG, he is another Islamic apologist who is naively trying to draw parallels between what rabble-rousing Muslim leaders say and what America GOP leaders say. Tell him to take this rant to some Arab paper, not in the Post.
---gurbally

****************************************

Would you mind answering his question? Why is it OK for you americans to elect a Christian nut TWICE'' who says God speaks to him and tells him to attack heathens in Iraq and has never shown the slightest bit of sorrow for causing the deaths of a million people. Can anything be worse than that? Why do you whacko's believe you know whats right for Egpytians, Iranians, Panamans, Chileans, Haitians? Why do you hate democracy so much america? Egyptians do not want to throw out religion out of their lives just like half of America. Why dont you ban your gun toting, war mongering tea party first before mouthing off against Islamists in Egypt?

Democracy and Sharia Law never the twain shall meet. Mr. Azlan you seem to be confusing muslim societies with muslim law. Yes a country such as India has a muslim population, but it is not an Islamic state, whereas Pakistan is, Afghanistan is, Iran is. There is no such thing as a democratic islamic country or government.

Mubarak is a corrupt despot in a neighborhood full of corrupt despots. He gets no sympathy from me. The only thing worse for Egypt than Mubarak is what comes next; the Muslim Brotherhood.

From Supreme Guide of the Brotherhood, Mohammad Badi, courtesy of MEMRI.

Today the Muslims desperately need a mentality of honor and means of power [that will enable them] to confront global Zionism. [This movement] knows nothing but the language of force, so [the Muslims] must meet iron with iron, and winds with [even more powerful] storms. They crucially need to understand that the improvement and change that the [Muslim] nation seeks can only be attained through jihad and sacrifice and by raising a jihadi generation that pursues death just as the enemies pursue life.

Is this guy a scholar of religions? OMG, he is another Islamic apologist who is naively trying to draw parallels between what rabble-rousing Muslim leaders say and what America GOP leaders say. Tell him to take this rant to some Arab paper, not in the Post.

For decades the United States has swallowed Mubarak's lie that his anti-democratic policies are necessary, that even the slightest weakening of his oppressive, authoritarian regime would result in the immediate takeover by radical Islamists bent on turning into another Afghanistan under the Taliban. The "United Nations has dubbed this specious and absurd argument a "legitimacy of blackmail." Now, the same lie is being peddled to Americans by people like Mike Huckabee and Rick Santorum, two men whose views on the role of religion and politics are almost identical to those of the Muslim Brotherhood.

How much longer are we going to fall for it?"

Fall for what? are you serious... Huckabee and Santorum are not lying and it is intellectually dishonest of you to use what's happening in Eqypt to promote your total lack of tolerance for anybody who doesn't see things through your Reza Aslanic goggles. Huckabee and Santorum are making an observation based on the history of the area. You know and I know they are not feeding us a lie...just because you disagree with their opinion doesn't make it so.

I for one am not going to fall for what you are trying to force feed us in your article.

The biggest difference in my view between a totalitarian state (religious or otherwise) and democracy is that those who create and operate the totalitarian state often believe it is perfect; that no better arrangements are either possible or correct. Whereas with democracy those who create and operate it, in all its facets know with certainty it is neither perfect nor the best or most correct arrangements possible. Democracy reflects pragmatism in this recognition. That what is constructed is always incomplete, uncertain, and subject to failure. Hitler didn't decide National Socialism wasn't working. Guns and people pushed National Socialism out of the way. The Czar didn't decide that monarchy had failed in Russia. Others decided that for him and removed him. The Roman Catholic Church didn't give up virtually absolute control of Europe out of a sense of a failed effort. It was pushed out of the way by Protestants, Jews, and other reformers/revolutionaries. This is the real tension between what Mr. Huckabee and those like him want as a Christian government and a democractic government. This same tension exists anywhere religion becomes entangled with government. I'm not saying it can't be overcome. But I am saying it can't overcome once and for all, and overcoming it must be a task taken up each and every day.

Democracy is a form of government where the ultimate power derives from the people. But, it works here in the U.S. because there is a structure of laws that all are willing to adhere to. Those laws are determined by representatives of the people and overseen by courts that assure even-handed, fair application of determination of guilt and innocence and fair and equitable sentences for wrong-doing. The people have a critical role in applying the law - by serving on juries that determine guilt or innocence. We can invest more trust in a system of justice that assures us it is our peers, not kings or nobles, and not ecclesiastical courts, who will weigh and judge us.

I think, more than the ideal of democracy - people voting for their leaders and voting for the basic laws under which they want to form a society - the ideal of justice through the rule of law is why an Islamic democracy may not work.

People have too little power when justice is dispensed by mullahs or groups who beat women who don't wear the right head scarf. Viewing the world, as I do, through the prisms of a female of Scot-Irish/Southern US/Catholic upbringing, the lack of power of women under Islam is appalling. The punishments for some offenses are appalling. The method of determining guilt and innocence lacks rigor, even-handedness, and unquestioned support for the accused to offer a defense.

Perhaps all that can be overcome if the rule of law could become part of the culture. After all, Christian women were at one time as lacking in voice and power as Islamic women of today.

Women in Chrisitan nations could not have gotten where we are today if the christian churches had maintained their power to determine and interpret the law. Despite what Huckabee, She-who-must-not-be-named (wink-wink), and all the Christian fundamentalists may say or try, we would still be the chattel of men, the daughters of "Eve" prone to sin, if the U.S. had been run as a "Christian nation."

Iconoblaster wrote:
This region didn't become the mess it is without LOTS of help from outside.
=================================

Way more accurate to say this region became a mess DESPITE lots of help from the outside. Islam existed in its present state before Western colonialism. It feels it survived western colonialism so it could revert to its traditional state. Islam hasn't progressed one iota past its traditional backward structure. The only progress it has made in the last 300 years has been by adopting whatever western progress it has allowed into its society...end of story.

I glanced through the comments but I don't think anyone has commented (though i could be wrong) about the irony that Huckabee (a minister) and former-Sentator Santorum are part of the religious right in America. Some would even call them the "American Taliban" because they want to impart some of their religious values on the rest of us. Though some may comment that "this is not the same thing as the most extreme of Islamic fundamentalism" I suspect that those wanting Islamic values as part of their government are too far from Mr Huckabee and Mr. Santorum's view of Christianity in the US. I find it highly hypocritical that these two would suddenly advocate the separation of church and state (or mosque and state) for Egypt while advocating specific "Christian" values for the US as they see us as a "Christian Nation". Frankly, I'm not a big fan of either of these gentlemen and this hypocrisy cements my views of them even further.

Huckabee and Santorum are candidates, not administrators. Like Antony, theirs is not to unify, but to divide, what "their" respective administration would do, vs. what "Obama's" they've speculated will do.

Lots of misinformation on Islam here. Mostly it's the typical confusion between what is in the Holy Quran and what is in the Hadith... One must remember that the Prophet Mohammed was very much interested in bringing justice and fairness to 7th Century Arabia and its neighbors. He saw no real difference between this and the establishment of Islamic faith-based governments. Remember, this was 7th Century political adn religious reform. At that time the Islamic reform looked like massive democratic reform compared to the Christian nations of Europe. It is also clear that, like Christianity, the social practice in Islamic nations may not be consistent with the straight-forward Quranic messages (the Suras). Both Christian and Islamic, tend to reinterpret their respective doctrines through their cultural filters - often ending up with a twisted or opposite meaning of scripture.

Islam might be compatible with democracy the same way Christian Fundamentalism was in the South 50-100 years ago. A whole political system was devoted to keeping the minority away from the majority.

The experience of Indonesian the last 10 years, Turkey the last 30, and Iraq between Mission Accomplished and Surge, suggests Muslims without a strong leader will follow their strong book.

Christianity can easily have been said to be "incompatible with democracy", too, inasmuch as it legitimizes slavery, monarchy and other practices that we now regard as totally adverse to governance of a "democratic society". Somehow, many people, even in countries with Christian majorities, have managed to overcome these apparent contradictions.

The West is not without blame about the lack of democracy in many Islamic countries. Americans, especially, should be careful about throwing stones, after (just for example) using the CIA to help foment a coup in Iran, in 1953, to unseat the democratically-elected government, and hand total power to a despot, which we then supported with our tax money for a quarter of a century.

Britain and France have similarly shameful histories in Egypt and much of the Arab Middle East. This region didn't become the mess it is without LOTS of help from outside.

Those who want Islam in government are wrong, and those who want Christianity in government are wrong.

Religion must, if we want democracy, be a private matter. That's it.

Sorry, dude, you can make the case for Islam all you want, but it is incompatible with democracy and justice (there can be no democracy without rule of democratic law). Just ask the Copts, or any other Christian group in the middle east, all of which have been there centuries before Islam expanded through putting people to the sword. And, I do believe in the First Amendment, contrary to the premise of this "acclaimed scholar."

There isn't just one single form of Islam and there isn't just one single form of democracy. Some forms of Islam are incompatible with absolutely EVERYTHING else, including democracy. Other forms of Islam are more relaxed. Some forms of democracy are incompatible with absolutely everything else, including any and all religions. However, we have very few examples of the type of Islam that works in a society where everyone has equal voice. The inherent mysogeneity of Islam tends to make that all but impossible. Islam is so prone to redicalization, that one would be a fool not to be suspicious of a greater role for Islam in governance. Sharia is just plain SCARY. No woman should accept a system where her testimony is automatically worth less than a man's. Sharia cannot coexist with a justice system that treats everyone equally under the law or one that eschews draconian punishment. Nor can it coexist with the various freedoms we take for granted that allow our form of democracy to work. The author may be able to envision a type of democracy that works with sharia law and islamist governing. I cannot. And I do not think it is unfair to Islam to point to Saudi Arabia and Iran as examples of what no one in their right mind could possibly want. Unfortunatly, as the Iranians would surely corroborate, once you get the Islamists in, you will NEVER get them out. As far as I can tell, in the muslim world, democracy means nothing more than oust the opressor and then become the opressor.

Let us remember that Anwar Sadat, former President of Egypt and one of the leading figures of the 1952 Egyptian coup by the military was murdered by Islamic Jihad, an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood. It's one thing to allow all men to worship what and how they may in a truly democratic country bound by a constitution that separates the state and religion. In almost every so called "Islamic Republic" where no separation occurs between the state and the state religion, inevitably the state religion will crush all opposition and deny even the most basic freedoms to the population. Mr Aslam deceives himself suggesting that once Egypt heads down the path of an "Islamic Republic" that somehow it will bring happiness to the people. If that end situation occurs goodbye to freedom. It's crass ignorance to suggest that it's OK for some people to live in a state of oppression because they are somehow different. All men and women aspire personal freedom, its just that sometimes they are deceived as to what constitutes freedom. Enforced compliance never was freedom.

This debate should be more about the people of Egypt and their freedom. And then about how they can move to the center and be free. And stay free. Religion and the state do not become one in a democracy as Mr. Aslan claims. They are separate and that is why we have a separation of church (religion) and state.

Religion completely contradicts Democracy.
You think that the pope asks for a show of hands? Just look at the extreme religious in our own country.

There is certainly no shortage of historical examples of initially democratic revolutions being taken over by zealots, eg:
Girondists by Jacobins, Mensheviks by Bolsheviks, Weimar by Nazis.

To confidently rely on the small part played by the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt so far as evidence that Egypt will not become a theocracy in time, is foolish, wishful thinking.

OLDUNCLETOM:

"Can Islam and democracy coexist?
It never has. (What a question to ask!)
Only someone trying to hoodwink somebody
would ask a question like that."

==================================

Indonesia. The world's third largest democratic nation is more than 85% Islamic.
India. The world's largest democratic nation has a significant population of Muslims, though not a majority.
Turkey. Politically secular, but majority Muslim.
-
Feeling stupid yet?

POSTED BY: OLDUNCLETOM | JANUARY 31, 2011 2:00 PM
REPORT OFFENSIVE COMMENT
No OLDUNCLETOM, in Indonesia, after the dicatorship fell and over the past 10+ years the country has rapidly swung more Islamist. In Malaysia there has been an erosion of rights of Chinese and Hindus, in Turkey the country is rapidly swinging Islamist (and Pakistan with persistent genocide is a good example of what Islamist means to the minority). In India it has come at the cost of partition and a numerous communal riots, and only now is a segment of the Islamic community moving to the center. BTW in Pakistan, the country was founded by a Shia - and guess who is the next in the extermination list in that country - kind of ironic.

So can Islam coexist with democracy - yes, with radical changes within the religion and a significant portion of the population - which will take time. Not immediately, unhappily. Hopefully, global questioning may lead to a more liberal and socially integrated Islam. Ironically those who have veered to the Center, e.g. Akbar in India, eventually wanted to create a new religion in frustration.

However all religions eventually veer to moderation over time. Islam is only taking a few extra millenia. It needs to be taken by enough Muslims who actually believe in peace and will stand up for it.

Islam means "SUBMISSION". Submissive person can be a slave, to a person, vice, Habit etc. H ecan never be a free thinker. So its clear democracy does not work in Islam (at least in most places).

In a democracy, many questions / Opinions arise on God, Faith, Choices etc. Islam does not give any choice to its followers. There are strict rules and regulatons to every walk in life. It controls their everyday aspect of their life.I am sure many will claim i nevrer read the qoran or really understood it in totality. No other religion faces this dilema.

There probably are fewer places on earth as difficult for Islam and democracy to exist other than Iraq, yet it is finally working. Iraq sets the example.
Are there some in the GOP who are skeptical about Islam/democracy, yes there is. But now all of us. There are many Republicans who fully support Egypt's claim for democracy. We're rooting for you!
Posted by: brianmonroe | January 31, 2011 2:38 PM
-----------------------------------
Prediction: When the U.S. is completely free and clear of Iraq, the Sunni and Shia will work side by side to eradicate the Kurds. They they will work to kill each other. So much for democracy.

Religion and democracy are incompatible. A democratic society can be a place where religion is tolerated or even flourishes, but religion cannot be a part of the government or democracy will cease. Religion is inherently anti-democratic and will ultimately doom any democracy in which it plays a role.

Just what we don't need right now is GOP presidential candidates duking it out in the public prints about what we should do vis-a-vis Egypt. Let them consult with the White House and share their views. This is no issue for political football or one upsmanship. A number of level-headed conservative commentators have already given Obama and Hillary high marks for their handling of the situation. This a major bipartisan moment. And it will be hard enough to "get it right" even with all the behind-the-scenes diplomacy and discussion in Washington and with leaders of the other major-player countries (Israel, Jordan, France, England, Russia, China, etc.).

The situation is fluid, and potentially volatile. It needs assessment on a day-by-day basis. The last thing we need is a shoot-from-the-hip approach, or kneejerk diplomacy.

John Patrick Grace
Huntington, West Virginia

Huckabee is an airhead who made it by playing the "tax free" religious card.
Throw him under the bus along with Santorum.

NewsBusters| Daily Beast's Aslan: Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt Like Christian Conservatives in U.S.
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/ken-shepherd/2011/01/31/daily-beasts-aslan-muslim-brotherhood-egypt-christian-conservatives-us

This article is a nice piece of rhetorical BS using Huckabee and Santorum as strawmen for a speicious argument.

Civics 101 for Mr. Aslan: In America every individual is free to practice any religion. The government is NOT free to promote any religion.

Now Mr. Aslan, compare and contrast this with majority Muslim countries. Go down the list one by one.
Pakistan changed its name to the "Islamic Republic of Pakistan".
Afghanistan is the "Islamic Republic of Pakistan".
Iran is the "Islamic Republic of Iran".
Saudi Arabia is an "Islamic monarchy" that promotes Islam and discriminates against others.
Turkey is only a "Republic" but let's see how long that lasts not that the military has lost power and the Islamic party is in Power.
What exactly brings the OIC - Organization of Islamic Countries - believe in.
Many human rights reports are available documenting the treatment of minority religions in Islamci nations, including the "moderate" one like Malaysia & Indonesia. It is not impressive and nowhere near America, with Huckabee & Santorum.

How many Christian Republic of something are there or Hindu Republic or Buddist Republic.

Read the Constitution of some of these "Islamic countries". They specifically promote Islam as a state religion. Blashphemy laws are on the books with the death penalty. See Pakistan, sorry Islamic Republic of Pakistan - PBUH.

Don't want to confuse this progressive discussion with facts, but the reality is different from Mr. Aslan's rhetoric.

"Nevertheless, since a state can be considered democratic only insofar as it reflects its society, if the society is founded upon a particular set of values, then must not its government be also?" The author is condoning dictatorship by the majority which is exactily opposite of democracy. In a democracy the majority rules but the constitution provides for specific protection of the minority view and right to practice religion according to their personal beleif. No islamic majority country has provided for such protection of the minority in practical terms. Just look at Pakistan. Just recently the lawyers of the country's supreme court hailed as "matyr" a murderer who killed the government of Punjab because he had the courage to stand up to the islamists and call for repeal of the very regressive, oppressive Blasphemy Law. How can you have democracy in a state which denies right to question anything about religion? There is no doubt the Christion Right many at times sound like the Islamists but then whoever said that they are the pillars of democracy by any measure. Arguing that Huckabee and Santorium sound like Islamists doesn't support the argument that somehow democracy can flourish in an Islamic majority country. It hasn't so far. And it is ridiculous to compare American public's views on religion to that of Egyptians and other muslims. Vast majority of Americans beleive in separation of state and church. You can criticize Christianity or any other religion without any fear of ones life. We know what happens to anyone who criticizes islam in Egypt or any other Islamic nation.

Sigh. . . .
"Mike Huckabee himself, who has repeatedly called Americans to "take this nation back for Christ" and who, while running for president, proudly declared that "what we need to do is to amend the Constitution so it's in God's standards."

Geeze! we worry about Egypt being taken over by religious ignoramuses? Huckabee doesn't even accept or know anything about biological and geological evolution, and that doesn't WORRY us about the Christian Right's Koch Brothers backed efforts to takeover our CONSTITUTIONALLY founded USA?
GEEZE!

Democracy and Islam do alright here in the USA, so I can't understand why it wouldn't work everywhere.

First off since when is the U.S. a
real democracy.
Secondly why do you give those two jerks the attebton they grave?
Thirdly All religions, from the beginnings of these nonsense ideas have all used it to control.
People just finding that out?

And if the Egyptians were Christian, mot of the commenters on this article would be saying the opposite. State religion and democracy do not mix and that is why our Constitution separates the two, much to the chagron of people like Huckabee and Santorum.

Ah. Once again Huckabee and Santorum don't miss an opportunity to be jerks. They must be channeling Glenn Beck.

"Islam was designed
by Mohammed to specifically control his gang
of cut-throats & highwaymen (that is why
Islam rewards butchery, murder, rape, robbery
and terrorism in this world & in the next)."

Try reading some history before you go off into fantasy land. For one thing, Islam was responsible for saving the works of the Greeks, and others, which in turn kept the dark ages from being darker. The Renaissance might never have happened if the writings, which are considered by almost all as being the foundation of western civilization had been allowed to disappear.

Also, Christianity isn't exactly bloodless in it's treatment of the followers of Islam. The crusaders slaughtered every Muslim in Jerusalem when they conquered it.

"Islam is a political movement with religious overtones and is the world's most intolerant movement threatening death to anyone who leaves Islam".

I would put Evangelical Christians right up there with them. They are the most intolerant people I know of in this country

The Koran is not the constitution of every Muslim country. Get real. Or at least do some research before spouting off.

Democracy works for the U.S.A. It is not for everyone in the world. There are other cultures that have different ways of governing fairly.

In other words, STOP STEREOTYPING PEOPLE.

Islam is only a religion of peace if you are a moslem. If you're not then Islam, at best, is justification for your enslavement and, at worst, your death sentence. The only way Democracy and Islam can co-exist is if there is strict separation between Islam and the secular state. That is different than what you will soon see in Egypt. The two parties that will evolve from Murbarak's ouster will be a nascent pro-democracy movement and The Muslim Brotherhod. The Muslim Brotherhood is just Hamas. The MA will win that battle because they are better organized, have more guns and more dedicated brutal killers. In the end, without outside assistance, it will be the MB that rules Egypt. Take a look at who is leading the rallies and shouting through the bullhorns. They're clerics, i.e. Hamas.

The Secret Service out to trace and watch out for "wiki-truth," who commented today at 11:41 AM. Sounds a lot like Jared Loughner...

Posted by: hcr-ga
------------------------------

nah, it's just our beloved JJ - we can't decide when he's more whacked out; on or off his meds.

Terrific article, Reza.You are spot on.
Aminah Carroll

I just tried to "Find" the word "Iraq" in this article and the hundred or so comments. Not one time has Iraq been mentioned.

You either are not serious or knowledgable enough to not mention Iraq in a conversation about Islam and democracy.

There probably are fewer places on earth as difficult for Islam and democracy to exist other than Iraq, yet it is finally working. Iraq sets the example.

Are there some in the GOP who are skeptical about Islam/democracy, yes there is. But now all of us. There are many Republicans who fully support Egypt's claim for democracy. We're rooting for you!

Can islam and democracy coexist? NO.

Two items Americans must fear is the nonsensical hysteria being whipped up by Hucklebum and Sanitarium.

Those two clowns scare the living bejeezus out of me.

What scares me even more, however, is that the respectable media gives these two bums valuable press time!

"Huckabee, Santorum dive into Egypt debate"

Who cares what these two clowns think.

.

Reading the comments of Huckabee & Santorum, followed by the diatribes above, it's harder to say which is more embarrassing to America: our ignorant presidential aspirants or the nutjobs on the Internet forums.

Democracy in the Middle East will mean the same think it has usually meant in France--the people may often elect governments that don't like us very much. But our country's foreign policy should still be to support democracy.

"Can Islam and democracy coexist?
It never has. (What a question to ask!)
Only someone trying to hoodwink somebody
would ask a question like that."

==================================

Indonesia. The world's third largest democratic nation is more than 85% Islamic.
India. The world's largest democratic nation has a significant population of Muslims, though not a majority.
Turkey. Politically secular, but majority Muslim.
-
Feeling stupid yet?

Yes in a perfect world the progressive elements in Egypt would take over the country issuing an era of peace and prosperity in the presence of an unsustainable population explosion with an independent judiciary, freedom of religion and the respect of law. What you will get is an Islamic republic with little if any respect for women’s rights to education and very opposed to our more liberal and progressive societies in the west.
To the anti-Israel bloggers: The populations that do not want peace are the Arabs and the Palestinians. Sadat was considered a traitor because of the peace treaty in which he got back all of the occupied Egyptian territory. Mubarak is likewise deemed to be a traitor by the Arab street. The Palestinians freely elected Hamas to power and this party has as its principal goal the destruction of Israel and the death of all Israeli Jews. The Arabs after the 1967 war came out with a declaration of no peace, no negotiations and no recognition. So what does a peace with the Palestinians entail? The same sort of peace that followed Israel’s unilateral withdrawal from Gaza? Withdrawal from Gaza led not to the establishment of a civil society but the daily rocketing of Israel that caused a blockade. I wonder what the USA would do if the Mexicans were rocketing our southern cities on a daily basis, given our reaction to the 9/11 attack.

Can Islam and democracy coexist?

It never has. (What a question to ask!)
Only someone trying to hoodwink somebody
would ask a question like that. See:

http://islamisbad.com

The real raison d'etre of Islam is to control
"the people" (that's why it's called Islam, or
"Submit!" to begin with). Islam was designed
by Mohammed to specifically control his gang
of cut-throats & highwaymen (that is why
Islam rewards butchery, murder, rape, robbery
and terrorism in this world & in the next).

http://islamisbad.com/islamicterrorism.html

Democracy was specifically designed (at least
the word, which means "the people thing") to
give the people the power over themselves:
Islam and democracy are mutually excluding.
And all "Islamists" know this. The only ones
who are too ignorant to know this (and deemed
too innocent to be told by those who ought to
be telling them this 20 hours a day in order to
save their bodies & souls) are non-Muslims.

The result is that hundreds of millions of non-
Muslims have perished in the Islamic Genocide
and many, many more millions are likely to.

S D Rodrian
http://sdrodrian.com

.

Hickbee and the other moron are talking to hear themselves talk. The United States has no control over what will happen on the ground in Egypt. These two clowns would do what...send troops??? What nonsense.

BBJRSA asks:
“You say that Israel can be both Jewish/Zionist and democratic but Muslim countries cannot be both Islamist and democratic? Would you care to offer an explanation for your double standard?”

Israel, unlike Islamists, does not use its holy texts as its constitution.
The Muslim culture as derived from the Quran and the example of the Muslim prophet and Islamic history after him places the value of a person on only “his affiliation”, whether social or religious and nothing else. It is a culture that has no respect for his humanity or recognizes his individuality or his liberty and considers the ruled to be the slaves of the rulers who answer to no one but to Allah i.e. to no one.

mr. aslan

I think you need to be more specific in your discussions and comparisons relating religion and politics in America to religion and politics in Egypt. Saying that democracy and religion (Islam) can coexist is too general of a statement.
One of the specific points of concern is that a fully developed democracy has protections for religious minorities. Would this theoretical new democracy respect the rights of the Copts for example? The only way that is possible is if the religious influence on the government is limited.

Also, would this theoretical democratic government respect freedom of speech? Once again if this were to be true then the religious influence on government would have to be limited, or if not heresy and apostasy suddenly become the responsibilities of the courts, which would not reflect a true democracy.

reza

I think you need to be more specific in your discussions and comparisons relating religion and politics in America to religion and politics in Egypt. Saying that democracy and religion (Islam) can coexist is too general of a statement.

One of the specific points of concern is that a fully developed democracy has protections for religious minorities. Would this theoretical new democracy respect the rights of the Copts for example? The only way that is possible is if the religious influence on the government is limited.

Also, would this theoretical democratic government respect freedom of speech? Once again if this were to be true then the religious influence on government would have to be limited, or if not heresy and apostasy suddenly become the responsibilities of the courts, which would not reflect a true democracy.

reza

I think you need to be more specific in your discussions and comparisons relating religion and politics in America to religion and politics in Egypt. Saying that democracy and religion (Islam) can coexist is too general of a statement.
One of the specific points of concern is that a fully developed democracy has protections for religious minorities. Would this theoretical new democracy respect the rights of the Copts for example? The only way that is possible is if the religious influence on the government is limited.

Also, would this theoretical democratic government respect freedom of speech? Once again if this were to be true then the religious influence on government would have to be limited, or if not heresy and apostasy suddenly become the responsibilities of the courts, which would not reflect a true democracy.

Very well written.

AGAPN9 I go against your silly god's wishes all the time. I'm just a ghost?

You belong in the muslim brotherhood, or the christian variant. We are a free country because our constitution protects us against fanatics like you. The question here today, is will the Egyptians choose a government that protects them against nuts like you as well.

reza

I think you need to be more specific in your discussions and comparisons relating religion and politics in America to religion and politics in Egypt. Saying that democracy and religion (Islam) can coexist is too general of a statement.
One of the specific points of concern is that a fully developed democracy has protections for religious minorities. Would this theoretical new democracy respect the rights of the Copts for example? The only way that is possible is if the religious influence on the government is limited.

Also, would this theoretical democratic government respect freedom of speech? Once again if this were to be true then the religious influence on government would have to be limited, or if not heresy and apostasy suddenly become the responsibilities of the courts, which would not reflect a true democracy.

reza

I agree with what appears to be one of your points, that many in the US immediately think of repression when they think of Islam.

However I think you need to be more specific in your discussions and comparisons relating religion and politics in America to religion and politics in Egypt. Saying that democracy and religion (Islam) can coexist is too general of a statement.
One of the specific points of concern is that a fully developed democracy has protections for religious minorities. Would this theoretical new democracy respect the rights of the Copts for example? The only way that is possible is if the religious influence on the government is limited.

Also, would this theoretical democratic government respect freedom of speech? Once again if this were to be true then the religious influence on government would have to be limited, or if not heresy and apostasy suddenly become the responsibilities of the courts, which would not reflect a true democracy.

God's own ambassador, the Blessed Virgin Mary, told the Egyptian people at Zeitoun Cairo for two years that she loves them and blesses them but they must allow freedom of religion for the christians.

If a people go against God's wishes they are already dead.

So what laws do Egyptians follow? If they want a democracy do they establish liberal democratic laws or do they establish an interpretation of Shariah law which is decidedly undemocratic, repressive and retrograde.
Westerners worry about how Muslims will govern themselves because we haven't seen Muslims willing to put aside the dictates of the Quran to come into the 21st century. Why will Egyptians be different?

Why does everyone assume Egypt wants an American style democracy? They'll most probably end up with a theocracy (which is the ultimate desire of people like Huckabee and Santorem for this country).

I have a hard question.
Why are all America's friends in that part of the world "despicable dictators"?
If we can answer that one, hopefully with the necessary attitude adjustments, we might change our image in the Islamic world.
Our "interests" do not match our "principles" very well.

It's the Aliens who are instigating the revolt to pave the way for their return to the pyramids.

Huckabee and Santorum are idiots, as are many of the people posting here. The Egyptian military, which commands a great deal of respect and power, is not about to let the Muslim Brotherhood or any other radical group take over the government. The best thing for foreigners to do is not to run around braying like jackasses but to help facilitate a transfer of power to a temporary government that will hold elections in about 6 months or so

The distinction also needs to be made more clear between the Muslim Brotherhood of al Bannah, the Muslim Brotherhood of Qutb, and the one that exists today. What the organization was founded as, what its various scholars produced over the years, and what it is today are separate issues. Most of the Qutbists lef the Brotherhood inthe '60s and 70s seeing it as insufficient and moving instead to Islamic Jihad, leaving the moderates behind.

While the Brotherhood inspired militant groups like Islamic Jihad, al Qa'eda, Hez-b-Islami Gulbaddin (HiG), and Hamas over the years, it has also spawned some of our closest allies in the region as well, such as Jamiat-i-Islami in Afghanistan (Ahmed Shah Massoud's faction, led by Rabbani who was instructed by the Brotherhood at Cairo University in 1966, who most of our Tajik allies in Afghanistan stil follow as the main alternative to Karzai). Just because they believe Islam plays a role in the process of government doesn't make them radicals and necessarily anti-American, we have plenty of allies in such factions.

I'd really rather hear the opinions of those with at least one foot in reality, not the ravings of Santorum and Huckabee.

Since September 11, 2001, Americans have been introduced to a new lexicon. Words such as Taliban, Madrassa, al-Qaeda, and Islamofacists are now commonly used in many US homes. Another word that is frequently heard is Islamist.

This is an interesting term – one that I am not quite sure what to make of. I goggled the term and came up with a wide array of meanings – from such non-threatening definitions as “a scholar of Islam” to the more menacing sounding definition of “one who advocates the implementation and strict application of Sharia law.”

But, how is this term used by the Western media? What do they mean, and what do they intend to imply, when they use the term Islamist? In Western commentary the term always has an ominous connotation.

As a Muslim, I find this most disturbing because I have always considered myself an Islamist. To me, to be an Islamist is to be a Muslim who loves and tries to follow the tenants of the religion of Islam. There’s no denying it, that’s me. But, that doesn’t mean that I want to harm anyone. It simply means that I want to be a better human being.

Listening to Western coverage of the recent events in Lebanon, Tunisia, and now Egypt, a frequently voiced fear of the democratic countries of the West is the rise of democratically elected Islamist governments in the Arab and Muslim world. It would seem that any type of government, no matter how brutal or undemocratic, is preferable to a democratic Islamist one.

What this I hear? A government cannot be both Islamist and democratic? Oh, really?

You say that Israel can be both Jewish/Zionist and democratic but Muslim countries cannot be both Islamist and democratic? Would you care to offer an explanation for your double standard?

No? I thought not.

But, not to worry - there is no chance that the "Islamist" Muslim Brotherhood will take over in Egypt. Sure, they will have some representation in the new government that is sure to arise in Egypt. But, isn't that how it should be in a democracy? I mean, would anyone seriously suggest that Christian evangelicals here in the US or the Orthodox Jews in Israel be prohibited from participating in the political process?

So, take a deep breath and relax. The Islamists in general, and the Muslim Brotherhood in particular are no more or no less of a problem that any other religious conservative group.

Get a grip!

The Secret Service out to trace and watch out for "wiki-truth," who commented today at 11:41 AM. Sounds a lot like Jared Loughner...

Aslan predicts thus:
“But make no mistake, however the current uprising in Egypt turns out, there can be no doubt that the Muslim Brotherhood will have a significant role to play in post-Mubarak Egypt. And that is good thing.”

The Islamists are proponents of a supremacist ideology that believes the “other” does not deserve to live; the “other “ being anyone who do not have the same exact theology. The “other” is an absolute enemy with whom no understanding is possible. They are the purveyors of a one-dimensional culture, a culture of tyranny—tyranny in culture, in politics, in society, in the family, and in everything. Is that the “good thing” that you seek to dump on the Egyptians?

Islam is a political movement with religious overtones and is the world's most intolerant movement threatening death to anyone who leaves Islam and its followers insist on instituting primitive laws devised by sheep herders in the seventh century cutting off body parts and heads for various offenses.Islam is unable to rule nations in the modern age because of its primitive laws. Where are all the Islamic inventions or improvements in the lives of people. There are none which is why Islamic nations are poor, and barely surviving amidst the filth and chaos of their nations.

llrllr

You wrote, "Most would favor rewriting the Constitution to add Christianity."

I think it might be more accurate to say some not most.

If Christianity does not come from within, it is not Christianity, if it is imposed on someone from the outside, it is not Christianity.

Contrary to what many have attempted thru the age, Jesus did NOT attempt, or want anyone else, to set up a theocracy.

I, personally, believe that the founding fathers were divinely inspired, whether they knew it or not, when they set up "freedom of religion" into the law of the land.

You then wrote, "Most would not favor rewriting the Constitution to add Islam to our courthouses and schools as Americans do not want freedom of religion except for the one that is now in the majority."

Unless there is freedom of ALL religion, there is not freedom of any religion.

There are many that oppose "freedom of religion" and I would think that one of the reasons that the founding fathers put in the "freedom of religion" clause, besides what they knew of what the marriage of church and state did in Europe, but also what people did with this "marriage" in the colonies.

Islam, by its very nature, is about world domination and if one reads, actually reads, what those that are referred to as "moderates" will see, is that the imposition of "sharia law", islamic law,
is the basis of islam.

Not all Muslims want to impose islam on others but the koran is about the "subjugation" of the whole world, whereas contrary to what some Christians, thru the age, have tried, Jesus, God-Incarnate said, "My Kingdom is not of this world".

By the way, God's Plan is for ALL to ultimately be in God's Kingdom and God becoming One of us in the person of Jesus is part of that Plan and God's Plan will come to Fruition.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Can both democracy and religious doctrine coexist as part of government? Of course. The United States have had a theocratic form of government for over 200 years. Or is the question whether or not Christianity is more congruent with democracy than other belief structures?

Turn it all into politics! That's what we so often do with polirixL comments. Support Egypt's people in their move toward democracy. That's what the President is doing and that is what he should be doing.

Who cares what the intolerant, white-supremacists theocons Sanitarium and Huckabee think? Their first interest is Israel who wants Mubarak to stay in power because the US has him on a leash.

Huckabee is a seditionist who would overthrow the Constitution for his twisted Leviticus cherry-picked version of "God's Standards" and the other guy is a total nut case who was voted out of office.

The voters of Pennsylvania threw Santorum out of office because he's a nutjob religious fanatic. He's a creationist, and very probably a dominionist. He is an evil man, who gives a flyingsht what he thinks?

We "abandoned" the Shah"? Is Santorum trying to do the work of Al Qaeda and ensure anyone who succeeds Mubarak is anti-American? The U.S. put the Shah into power, pure and simple, and helped keep his oppressive dictatorisl regime in poer for years. He, like Mubarak, precluded any peaceful, democratic oppositon, and was such a thug that it helped ensure that he would be overturned violently, and by a radical Islamic regime. How long could the U.S. have kept the Shan in power? For the rest of his life, and then have is son in power? Does Santorum think the oppositon would have just gone away? We helped create the monster that is the brutal regime of the Islamic Republic of Iran. Maybe Santorum also thinks the U.S. putting Batista into power in Cuba and keeping him there had nothing to do with Castro's dictatorship coming to power in reaction.

This guy seems to be the only person on the planet who cares what Huckabee and Santorum say. Both are usless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic

We do not have a democracy, we have a constitutional republic.

"Constitutional republics are a deliberate attempt to diminish the perceived threat of majoritarianism, thereby protecting dissenting individuals and minority groups from the "tyranny of the majority""

You really should study how your own government works, your statement clearly shows you do not understand.

Beware The Great OIL-EMBARGO is Coming!

R E C O M M E N D A T I O N:

1)
Make it a LAW that NO [Tax Exempt) CHRISTIAN ORGANIZATION (includes 'NGO's), in Sweet Sweet America Shall Assist nor Help ISRAEL in any form or ways.

2)
Make it a LAW that NO (Tax Exempt) ISLAMIC ORGANIZATION (includes 'NGO's) based in America ... shall Assist nor Help Any of their "OIC" Members!

3)
Since the 'OIC" Nations is, in reality, a "ISLAMIC-United-Nations" within the [SECULAR] United Nations; WE must Throw-Out All redundant (trouble Making) 22 ISLAMIC-ARAB LEAGUES out of The United Nations! Or Abolish That Satanic Versus Organization from within; If You Really Want Genuine Peace On earth!!??

IF NOT;

Then KICK-OUT All//Every//Any MUSLIM//ISHLAMI//ESAUi living in sweet sweet AMERICA A.S.A.P., Includes Nation Of Islam's 'Luis Farakhan' et al! Note: Unlike PreApocalyptic Israel, Don't Ask Them to take any Oath. Pay Them "Fair Market Value" for Their Property's; Even if U.S. have to use imminent Domain Laws to pay for the MOSQUES, And Let Them Choose to Migrate to ANY of their 53 "OIC" Nations; Never to any KAFIR Nations!

Kafir owned Ocean-Liner Company's can use this 'BUSINESS'.

Better purge them all Now Than Be Sorry Later! America must do it 'COLD TURKEY'. Note: If They Convert To any None Islamic Religion, then that might be an exception or be considered by the Deporting Authorities. Note: And KEEP MEXICAN HERE instead. Even though 'Spanish/Latin' Language is Not their Real Language nor is Christianity their Native/Genuine Religion, Mexican & Similar are, After all, Real AMERICANO's! Right Gringo's?

___

And IF, If I.NDIA + P.AKISTAN + I.SRAEL + S.OUTH AFRICA do not Give Up their NUKES to a New "WORLD-URANIUM-BANK" simultaneously: then

IT is Time to create a "NEW UNITED NATIONS; with or Without 'IPIS' and without the 22 ARAB LEAGUE nations; Includes the EVIL-EMPIRE; CHINA!

Or DON't BUY Anything Made By Any of Them (Even Indirectly-made or any-components of origin). Buy Only America; Even If It means going Through Inflation And Self-Isolation.

This Is Based On The QUESTION:

"Are Ye & YO's With HUMANITY (US) or Against HUMANITY (US)"??
___

iMPORTANTO: IF

there will be created a [3rd; NEW] U.nited N.ations THEN

Ye Yo shall make ALL Earths "NATURAL-RESOURCES", like The [2nd U.N] International's 'Space-Treaty', the Property Of ALL//EVERY & ANY "Automatic Born Citizen/Denizen Of [NEBULA-Built] Space-Ship Earth", aka HUUMATE(s), Not HUUMANS anymore!

ELSE: Because there will be No Vision & No HOPE then ATOMIC WAR is Inevitable!

SO, LESS NATIONS, Less Currency's and LESS RELIGION (No Exceptions) is The current & Future Answer/outcome To Prevent NUCLEAR HOLOCAUST, aka WWIII and WWIV!

Secret: Unlike the Judeo-Xrstian Ummah or the Vedic-Hindu Ummah; The Islamic "ELDERS OF AL-TAQIYAH" are itching to Use Nukes on Someone anyway to establish their Greatness. The Satanic VersUS Lovers Will Create such pretexts to do so.

.

Actually, most of the world's Muslims live in democracies. The world's largest Muslim nation is Indonesia, and it is a functioning democracy. The third-largest is India, also a functioning democracy. While the second-largest, Pakistan, does have a shaky government, it is a democracy ruled by an elected, civilian prime minister.

It is only in Arab Muslim nations where democracy has not taken hold.

Of course it's possible. The word "democracy" is not equivalent to "a secular society that establishes basic rights of its citizens, especially minority groups", or any such thing. Democracies merely ensure that the plurality of the voters have a say in governance (absent fraud).

Many Americans do seem to equate the two, and while I personally think the US system is the best form of governance that I know, and hope that others in the world get the same, I don't necessarily expect to see that in Egypt. But what I hope for is simple democracy, at least. It's possible, given their infrastructure and a reasonable level of respect for the law by the police and armed forces.

I'm certain that there is no democratic appetite for a non establishment dictum in any supreme law in Egypt. That is a problem for any Christian politician in the US because we already have one and there is no public appetite to change it. That establishment clause is there as part of a cultural legacy that stems from the 30 Years War in Europe and similar religious violence.

Alas, for the Muslim world, they have yet to settle their own deep seated religious schisms in such a sea of blood and, without the outside intervention that they so detest, I suspect that would be their fate in the near future. The upside would be that perhaps their medieval mindset would be washed clean by that blood.

"the overwhelming majority of Egyptians agree - 95 percent according to a 2010 Pew Research Center poll - is that Islam should play a role in the country's politics."

Com-on! Egypt is 10% Coptic Christian. So half of them say that Islam should guide their lives? Get real, and get a real poll.

"Most Americans want freedom of religion in government, as long as that means a Christian government with Christ in the courthouse and our schools. Most would favor rewriting the Constitution to add Christianity."

Then why hasn't America voted all of this into place? We have had over 200 years? Maybe b/c Amercia was founded with "freedom of religion" as a cornerstone? Don't confuse politicians who inject thier personal beliefs into the system with the system. The system is designed for freedom of religion. People in the system are free to act and have faith in whatever they want.

Most Americans want freedom of religion in government, as long as that means a Christian government with Christ in the courthouse and our schools. Most would favor rewriting the Constitution to add Christianity.
Most would not favor rewriting the Constitution to add Islam to our courthouses and schools as Americans do not want freedom of religion except for the one that is now in the majority.
In a few decades, Islam will be the majority religion in America and will be in the courthouses and schools. For Egypt now, the only real democracy would be a Christian one.

"What if Egyptians (like American conservatives Mike Huckabee and Rick Santorum) want both democracy and a role for religion in their government?"

He acts like Huckabee and Santorum are good guys trying to get a good thing to happen.

These men are wrong, we do NOT want their stinking religious fanaticism running the government in our country.

This is as bass-ackwards an equivalence as any I've ever seen. He tries to make it sound like having the islamists running Egypt is a good idea, and therefore so is having the evangelicals running our government.

There is no freedom in a theocracy, any theocracy, period. Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power.

Islam is NOT a religion!!! Please burn that FACT into your fevered brow!

Religion is part of Islam, but just a part!

There is NO separation between the "religious" and the "political" in Islam.....

The goal of Islam is the establishment of a world caliphate and the imposition of shari'a law as dictated by the Qur'an and enforced by Islam "authorities."

To those of you raising your voices in a chorus of apologies for Islam, be advised that under shari'a law, unless you are already a Muslim, you will have three choices: 1. Convert to Islam; 2. Submit to Islam [dhimmitude]; or, 3. Death! I reject all three choices!

If you believe Islam is a "religion of peace," please try to understand the Islam definition of PEACE:

From the Qur'an: "The world will be at PEACE only when Islam and shariah reign in every country ~~ and NEVER until then!"

Turkey is the closest we have been to that and now it is falling into the current trend towards Sharia law.

So we might as well say no right now.

Democracy is manmade is not acceptable in Islam.Shria is only acceptable for Islamists.
Democracy is compatible with secularism that is blasphemy in Islam.

Can Islam and democracy coexist? No. Islam has proven itself to be incapable of coexisting with anyone or anything.

"Can Islam and democracy coexist"?

In a word....NO

Reza Aslan is trying to make US more amenable to the role that prominent and only organized opposition political party ‘Brotherhood of Islam’ taking part in post-Mubarak Egyptian government.
But to say that Islam and present-day democracy are compatible is contradiction of terms.
Islam gives second class status to women in society, democracy does NOT.
Islam allows man to have four wives, democracy does NOT.
Islam allows men to divorce their wives just by pronouncing ’talaq, talaq, talaq’ three times, even on a cell phone, democracy does NOT.
Islam asks its adherents to wage a jihad against nonbelievers and ’kill or convert’ the nonbelievers, democracy does NOT.
Islam promises virgins to jihadis in heaven, democracy does NOT.
Islam condemns to death those who convert from Islam to any other religion, democracy does NOT.
List can go on but suffice it to say that Reza Aslan is absolutely wrong that Islam and democracy are compatible.
________________________

In a word LOL. Ok many misconceptions abound here. Democracy did and in many ways still does promote Slavery, Inequality, and the will of the majority over the minority.
Women got to vote in 1920, black men in 1865 for the US. It promoted and allowed the enslavement of once free men. This doesn't even include other countries. And remember, our "democracy" was founded off of Christian "values". Christianity also supported the fact that women were second hand citizens and were inferior to men for exactly the same reason as Islam, Pandora and Eve. Pandora is not just a music site, it a woman who opened a box, and released all the bad stuff on mankind.

Jihad. Ok, we seem to be stuck in a universe where Christianity's sayings are what we accept. Jihad as referred to by Muhammad, aka the guy who founded Islam, was an idea that mankind battled sin and its power over us on a day to day basis. He said we carry a jihad on SIN. Now the Jihad you refer to is the Jihad of later days, when clerics used the reference of Jihad to encourage the masses to violence against non-muslims who they said were a "sin" against God. To accept what a cleric says against the founder of a religion is like me saying I accept what Pat Robertson says over Jesus. Bad idea. Don't do it.

So relax, yes Islam is playing a defining role in the Middle East. But religion has always played a defining role a culture, even if it is the lack there of (aka Soviet Union). Your hope shouldn't be Islam staying out of Egypt or the Middle East. Your hope should be that people actually read the Koran, and judge it for themselves, rather than letting an anti-people cleric decide its meaning. Cause that is the difference between the fundamentalist Babtist and Muslim. Education and knowledge of the faith. Because no sucessful modern religion wants its people to die to kill others. :)

There is a direct correlation between the ascendency of Islam politically and a diminishment of human rights.

Whereas Christ taught us to love our enemies, Mohammed taught his followers to crush their enemies into submission.

Christ told us to "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's", whereas Mohommed taught his followers that the mosque is the state and that there is no room for non-believers.

Unless Islamists refuse to follow their religion, their ascendency will be a disaster for Egyptians. How do you do that, when the goal of Islam is to make the mosque the state?

"Even American analysts like Bruce Reidel, a former CIA officer and head of President Obama's 2009 Afghanistan and Pakistan Policy Review, has rejected the utterly preposterous notion that the Brotherhood want to turn Egypt into another Iran. "[We] should not be afraid of the Muslim Brotherhood," he said. "Living with it won't be easy but it should not be seen as inevitably our enemy.""
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Mr. Aslan,
Mr. Reidel is correct that "we should not be afraid of the Muslim Brotherhood". He goes on to say "living with it won`t be easy..." and "...it should not be seen as INEVITABLY our enemy". Inevitably, sir. It seems as though Mr. Reidel doesn`t view the possibility that the MB wants Egypt to be another Iran as an "utterly preposterous notion". He is only saying that there is a possibilty that they will not consider the US an enemy. Are you naive enough to believe they would consider us a friend?

Aslan: what do you mean by Bush's "evangelical foreign policy?" Bush was most "evangelical" about promoting democracy in the region. As this became associated with regime change through war, the Obama administration understandably downplayed support for democracy in the region, but in retrospect it appears to have been too reticent.

Islam doesn't recognize separation of church and state. Muhammad did not subscribe to Jesus' notion of "render to Ceasar what is Ceasar's." Islam is a way of life for all of the affairs of the faithful, including civic. It would be a radical and unprecedented achievement to enact a civil government with guaranteed freedom of religion for non-Muslims and an independent judiciary in a Muslim population nation. A good achievement, even great, but unprecedented in all human history.

I've Read Mr. Aslan's book "No God But God," in which he makes the same argument with more explanation of his reasoning. Unfortunately, he fails to acknowledge two facts that make his argument invalid: 1) the principle of the separation of religion and the state has been an integral and necessary part of our democracy since it's beginning, as expressed in the words of the 1st Amendment to the Constitution and many court decisions; and 2) his examples of politicians calling for state-sponsored religion in the U.S. are not representative of the majority of people in the U.S.

Moreover, there is simply no way you can have freedom of religion without a separation between religion and the state. There is no place on earth where there is freedom of religion without formal laws calling for separation between church and state.

In his book, Mr. Aslan argues that the U.S. was a "Christian" country in the beginning, yet freedom and democracy flourished nevertheless. However, he is simply wrong about the history of the U.S.- the 1st Amendment came out of a tradition in this country of such a separation in the federal laws, even though certain states favored some religious beliefs over others. When it comes to the country, and now in current times the states, there remains a formal recognition that religious and other freedoms require government power to remain free of bias toward religion or toward particular religions. Mr. Aslan has yet to prove otherwise.

From Robert Spencer:

Recently I’ve written about Reza Aslan several times, as he is a quintessential example of a deceptive Islamic supremacist who is widely taken as a “moderate,” and is thus a good illustration of how people can be taken in by such snake-oil peddlers. The pint-sized literary poseur Aslan is trying very hard to appear as a reasonable, fashionably liberal voice of Islam, but the deceptiveness of this is shown by the fact that he is a Board member of the National Iranian American Council, a group that genuine Iranian pro-democracy forces regard as an apologetic vehicle for the Islamic Republic of Iran. He has also called on the U.S. Government to negotiate not only with Ahmadinejad but with Hamas — that is, with some of the most barbaric and genocidally-inclined adherents of Sharia.

Thank you Reza for this insight. I Lived years in the US and I know many consume false information like they consume fast food.The young people in America should rise up some day to get their freedom as those in Egypt. They are not less intelligent I hope.

I truly hope you're right Reza, that it is possible for the two to co-exist -- but I have some strong doubts.

Equivalence between evangelical Christian and radical Muslims is quite a stretch. How many Baptists suicide bombers are prepared to blow up Catholic congregations because of their differing views on the leadership of their shared faith?

I notice that you quote CIA authorities to support your viewpoint. As we recall from 30 years ago in Iran, such authoritative voices can be very, very wrong.

And I also recall that many of the students and intellectuals that supported the Iranian revolution also felt that the religious extremists could be pushed to the political margins once their common enemy was gone. They're still waiting...

There will be no inside the country move toward democracy in North Africa or the Middle East. The only reforms that will happen in Egypt will be those imposed by the Muslim Brotherhood. El Baradei is either foolish or naive or both. The Muslim Brotherhood will use him for their purposes to get the people behind the movement even more and then they will replace (execute) him much like what happened in Iran after the Shah. Remember what happened in Yugoslavia after Tito died. The same will happen all over North Africa. All the princes in the Saudi peninsula are shaking in their boots because they know they are next. The whole region; i.e., North Africa and the Middle East; will be turned into an even more radical and proactive Muslim fundamentalist region, fostered by Iran and the rising Taliban, where we have no sway. And, then we will see the rise of unrest even more in the Far East around Indonesia. When people keep contending that thi9s is not a religious war, they are so terribly wrong. The world leaders are so uneducated and stupid to believe the reforms they want are the same reforms the Muslim Brotherhood wants. And, our current administration has no way forward except to have their collective heads in the sand. Why do you think there was such bowing and scraping on BHO's trips to North Africa and the Middle East? He takes umbrage with how Mubarak was running Egypt, by fiat, when it is exactly how he is (was) trying to run the US - aided and abetted (at one time) by a sheeple congress.

Unfortunately, in the Muslim world free elections do not translate into a democratic system of government. As we have seen before the progressive elements may be the catalysts for political change but it is the primitive elements of the society that come to power. We saw that in Iran and in the Palestinian elections and we see it even in Turkey where an Islamic party is now in power. It is always difficult to deal with theocracies since they get their instructions from a higher being. Egypt will be no different, wait and see.

Reza Aslan is trying to make US more amenable to the role that prominent and only organized opposition political party ‘Brotherhood of Islam’ taking part in post-Mubarak Egyptian government.

But to say that Islam and present-day democracy are compatible is contradiction of terms.

Islam gives second class status to women in society, democracy does NOT.

Islam allows man to have four wives, democracy does NOT.

Islam allows men to divorce their wives just by pronouncing ’talaq, talaq, talaq’ three times, even on a cell phone, democracy does NOT.

Islam asks its adherents to wage a jihad against nonbelievers and ’kill or convert’ the nonbelievers, democracy does NOT.

Islam promises virgins to jihadis in heaven, democracy does NOT.

Islam condemns to death those who convert from Islam to any other religion, democracy does NOT.

List can go on but suffice it to say that Reza Aslan is absolutely wrong that Islam and democracy are compatible.

@wmarkw: Yes, Pakistan has a serious Islamist problem. But it was created by military dictatorships backed by the Reagan Administration. This is not present in Egypt.

@mjandrews: Saddam Hussein kept the Islamists under lock and key, too. But we whacked him, and look what happened.

@nuke41: The Iranian revolution was in large part clerical-driven. Remember when Khomeini triumphantly returned from exile in France? That factor does not seem present in Egypt.

Islam is intolerant of freedom in the marketplace of spiritual ideas. How one can imagine a state in which freedom of political ideas is allowed but religious ideas are forbidden is unimaginable. There is an intersection between the realms that is called philosophy.

Rick Santorum and Huckabee are more concerned about Israel and what will happen when the US no longer pays Mubarak $1.5 billion per year to leave Israel alone.

At least Mubarack kept the Muslim Brotherhood under control..let these crazies rule and Iran will be the least of our worries.....

Dont kid yourself, Egypt more than likely will go the way of Iran is given half a chance.

Are unlimited contributions to election campaigns compatible with democracy? No.

The record shows that elected officials are far more likely to act on behalf of their large donors, rather than on behalf of their voters.

Lets focus on our democracy before we focus on their's.

Just one month ago a Muslim nation with semi-democratic history, Pakistan, observed mass demonstrations in its street in FAVOR of the assassin of a government leader who had suggested anti-blasphemy laws were archaic. I don't think high-education Muslims like Mr. Aslan appreciate how the Quran reads to someone not in his intellectual class. It's entirely too easy to read "kill the infidel" literally.

Tunisia has a strong secular history driven by its location at a crossroads of cultures. Its upside could be what Lebanon was before civil war and becoming a base for anti-Israel violence. But Eqypt is a core Muslim nation whose people's (legitimate) complaints against their government do not necessarily lead to preferred solutions.