Conversion on Palm Sunday, 1953

The great Inca chief sacrificed his daughter and appeased the volcano god. That's a matter of the historical record. We got the body too. Her little head was fractured and the volcano stopped errupting. Go on and argue her death had nothing to do with it. You're just a pack of no faith atheists.

The living God Amenophis III sacrificed his daughter(?), Amenophis IV but there is no god to be appeased. Now two Greek scholars stumbled upon it and as Greeks scholars are known to do, they explained it. Amenophis III was the son of god, specifically, Ammun Re in their opinion and, of course it was written for them to read if they could. So here is a clear case from the written historical record of a God sacrificing last, (not only) child to whom? Why?

What did one Greek say to the other? All sacrifices are made to God, a given. Here's a God. Here's a sacrifice. Nothing happening, volcano errupting or the like. Amenophis III must have sacrificed Amenophis IV to himself. Make sense, still with me?

They, the two Greeks had one last problem. They couldn't read the names. They got Amen but that was it. They didn't know the name of the place they were either. So they used descriptors for both the people and place(s).

That is the source of the Jesus story in the NT. That's what the HB is trying in his limited writing ability to say. Did anyone else figure that out here?

HB has put the whold tale together for us. Why isn't it in the laboratory being tested for accuracy? Who has a vested interest in it? Just those who care about archaeology, the past, that sort of thing. Who has a vested interest in covering it up? Just the most powerful people on earth.

This is clearly a case of David vs Goliath in our own time. It's one insignificant BS from unknown U that's a covert Bible college versus the three great faiths. The Christians have all the gold that once belonged to native Americans and they get tax free money from American tax payers. This is a Christian nation. Don't believe me? Ask the pannel.

Bottom line. David wins because he's presents too small a target to hit. He has the facts, the truth and it never goes away.

Candide, I would like to return to your statement "As for the New Testament, it is pure progaganda on behalf of a Jesus who never was, concealing the real Jesus."

May I submit to all of those who read these posts the following arguments supporting the existence of the Jesus written about in the New Testament?

Although most of my support will come from the Bible itself, I will first offer support from another source, the Jewish Talmud. This book was written at least in part to contradict the divinity of Jesus. This book states that he performed many miracles, but it suggests that He did so by the power of Satan. Not only does this book NOT deny the fact that Jesus lived, but it also verifies that he performed many miracles. Wouldn't it make more sense if the Jesus of the New Testament never existed, that a book which was written in part to deny him as the Son of God would rather have stated that He never existed in the first place? But, that's not the case.

Also, we know from the New Testament that Jesus appeared after his resurrection over a period of 40 days to a number of people including his disciples, Mary Magdalene, the travelers on the road to Emmaus, and even to 500 people at once. As Paul writes his first letter to the Corinthians, he tells them that most of the 500 people are still alive, though some have passed away. (See 1 Corinthians 15:1-8) May I ask, why would Paul make such an outrageous statement? If he was telling a lie, wouldn't it have made much more sense to say that all 500 of those people were already dead at the time of his writing this letter? But, he didn't say that. He said that most were still alive. In other words, he was essentially saying, "don't take my word for it, go ask some of those 500 people if it really happened." Surely if you think about it rationally, 500 people could not be hallucinating at the same time.

Think about the disciples as well. If the disciples stole the body of Jesus and buried it as some have claimed, how does that make sense? If you remember, they ran and scattered while Jesus was being beaten and crucified. Why would they now risk their lives against soldiers who were guarding the tomb? (See Matthew 27:62-66) Why would they begin preaching in the very city where he was executed? (See the book of Acts) Why wouldn't they instead move 500 miles away and start preaching? Finally, why would they willingly die for what they KNEW was a lie? If you think about it rationally, it does not make sense unless Jesus was who he said he was and they had witnessed his resurrection.

Candide said, "The work of two Israeli archaeologists, Finkelstein and Silberman, show that the bible (Old testament)does not contain much in the way of reliable historical material."

Thank you for your comments. I am not familiar with these two archaeologists; would you mind posting a link to some of their conclusions? I would like to review their reports before making any comments.

As for your other comment, "As for the New Testament, it is pure progaganda on behalf of a Jesus who never was, concealing the real Jesus." I would kindly ask on what basis do you make that kind of statement? I have presented evidence for why I believe the New Testament is a valid document, but you have dismissed it with a rather sweeping statement, but provided no support for your claim. Although you are most certainly entitled to hold that belief, I only ask that you might share with everyone else why you can so easily dismiss the New Testament as "pure propaganda." Folks constantly press Christians to provide evidence for their claims. I feel that I have done that regarding our present topic. Whether those who read these posts accept it is the decision of each reader. I only ask that you would likewise present support for your claims.

Thank you for your thoughts and the discussions.

The work of two Israeli archaeologists, Finkelstein and Silberman, show that the bible (Old testament)does not contain much in the way of reliable historical material. As for the New Testament, it is pure progaganda on behalf of a Jesus who never was, concealing the real Jesus.

the hoax buster thing: this guy has a BS. Nothing wrong with a good healthy undergraduate degree, and nothing against his college (Murray State, i think). But it seems strange that you would take the word of a man with no scholarly credentials. If he is right, why not publish in a peer reviewed setting? if this is so revolutionary. Can you prove in an academic setting that the Bible is a complete hoax, that it is historically inaccurate? Countless scholars, real scholars, including many secular ones, verify the historical accuracy of the bible. Or do you just like to see your own views reinforced, something that you charge christians with doing. It seems that for someone who does not profess belief, you have a great deal of faith in something that has not been proven in any rational or scholarly way.

Dear Mr. Gawn,

You said, "Why did the bible steal passages from other earlier religions only to rewrite them and call them christianity?"

What other earlier religions are you referencing?

You also said, "as time goes on the bible goes through changes that most dont even know about. the book goes down its own evolutionary path!! it get watered down to make it sound better as time goes on to blindfold the average theist!!"

First, may I respectfully point to the fact that these are all TRANSLATIONS. We are translating from a different language (from Hebrew in the Old Testament and Greek in the New Testament) to the English language. In the English language, there are many words that can mean the same thing. Hence, we see words translated differently among the different translations listed, and updated in contemporary English. Some of these translations are very literal, while some are very liberal. Some folks have even written "paraphrases" of the Bible, such as The Message by Eugene Peterson. There are a number of translations out there that are not true to the Greek and Hebrew text and as you have correctly stated, are not to be recommended. However, the literal translations that we have today are the closest to the original texts that we have ever had, such as the New American Standard and the English Standard Version.

Over 6000 New Testament manuscripts have been discovered. The earliest copy we have is 30 years after the life of Jesus. The second most manuscripts are the works of Homer, and there are approximately 100 copies of those, and the first is not until 500 years after he lived in comparison to the New Testament. With 6000 manuscripts, I find it difficult to believe that there could be a successful effort to "water it down to make it sound better as time goes on to blindfold the average theist." That's simply illogical given the wealth of available manuscripts in the original language.

Permit me, if you will, to make an observation not directed toward you, but about many I've seen on these posts who attack the validity of the Bible. Could it be that you won't accept the validity of the Bible because you don't agree with and therefore won't accept many of its teachings? For example, John 8:44 as you quoted above in no way tells us to hate the Jews. Jesus himself was a Jew. Is he telling us to hate himself? Of course not. In fact, the two greatest commandments that Jesus gave us can be found in Matthew 22:36-40:"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets." Jesus commanded us to love our neighbors (including the Jews), not to hate them.

If you examine John 8:44 in its context, Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees, the religious leaders of the day. Allow me to quote verse 39-47 from the English Standard Version: "They answered him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would be doing what Abraham did, but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. You are doing what your father did." They said to him, "We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father--even God." Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."

In no way does this passage tell us to hate the Jews. As far as the other passages you referenced, again we could talk about context and the doctrine of dispensationalism, but I will hold off on that for now.

MR LAND- I had my first spiritual awakening at age 7 too- REMEMBER THAT FLAWLESS AND PURE FAITH WE HAD AS CHILDREN? SOMETIMES IN ADULTHOOD IT SEEMS TO GET A LITTLE WORN BUT YOUR REMINESCENCES TOOK ME BAKC TO MY OWN SO THANK YOU FOR THAT MOMENT IN TIME-

I OFTEN PRAY FOR GOD TO KEEP FRESH AND ALIVE THAT SAME FEELING OF GRATITUDE AND APPREICATION THAT I HAD AS A CHILD- AND I CAN SEE YOU HAVE KEPT IT FRESH IN YOUR LIFE.

THANK YOU I HOPE YOU DONT GET TIRED OF WADING THROUGH THE NEGATIVITY TO SEE THIS- THATS WHY ITSIN CAPS
PEACE

Lord, what fools these Christians be!

"If god is all knowing and all powerfull then why did he have to send jesus to retell us what god wasnt able to explain the first time?"

Excellent question!

He had an enemy to beat. More to the point - He had an enemy that He needed to remove. The greed of Satan would be his own downfall - he got sucked into God's little creation.

How do you do that? Simple, you feed it.

Do you expense what you fed to destroy an enemy? No. You feed it until it is blinded by greed - and then you pull the carpet out from under it and let it devour itself.

---
why couldnt he just instill the word into us all?

Who says He didn't?

Don't you know? Of all creation, throughout all time and place, out of every man or woman who has ever existed...

...God chose you. He chose you to *BE* you.

He branded you with a unique love that He carved out just *FOR* you. And that is a gift that can never be lost...

and it can never be taken away.

...but you have to accept it, first.

Can you accept that? Can you accept that He loves you? Even in-spite of yourself? Even in-spite of everything you've ever done? Can you find that place? If you can - then you don't need to ask these questions.

You'll find His Words burned right into you by His image in you. It hurts...

...ask anyone. God chose them, too. But there's not a one of us who wouldn't do it all over again - and wouldn't wish the same opportunity for you.

Mysticism? Perhaps.

But, it's a beautiful mystery to know, personally.

MR. GAWN.

One minor correction. The Greek word in the passage you have referenced that is being changed early on that makes a significant difference was:

tau-omicron-upsilon (tou) - meaning "of the" in the context of the passage. Otherwise, it would have been "ho" having already used "ek tou" in the first part of the sentence.

You are [ek]of [tou]the father [tou]of-the devil...

The father [of the] devil is earth; from which all mankind was raised as well. That the passage has been translated and retranslated was by design, too.

It embodies this very passage.

James
Muslims scare "hell into" their children just like Christians. The Arabic mind is much better developed than european minds so it sinks deeper, in a manner of speaking. No one actually beileves in nonsense like virgin births, mother not being of same species as child, God sacrificing own child, (son or daughter) to appease self and forgive one's trangressions against that same God, and a lot more that escapes me right now. I can't help but wonder about the fellow who thought that one up, had to be a Greek. Child abuse in and of itself is probably unavoidable because we "tease" the little cutties and can't help ourselves just as an innocent example. The fact is that the earth has a huge population of very same yet unidentical critters called people who now have the technology to destroy themselves. Whoever pushes the button to finish earth off will most likely have been an abused child. Elite military organizations thrive on abused children, little men with big inferioroty complexes toting assault rifles. And if that isn't enough, I don't really care, have no vested interest one way or the other. I can't help but notice that the Vatican and the panelists here most all have vested interests in whatever level of child abuse threats of hell actually are. I was just testing their faith.

If one truly has faith then one can take the heat of people like me who notice there's a few descrepencies in those absolute truth. I never tire of pointing out that Jesus has never come to the rescue of anyone in real need, the reverand John Wayne "punkin" Brown being one of my favorite examples. You're right. I have no respect for idiotic ideas and can't help myself, break down laughing at anyone who would pick up a 7 foot mountain rattler and then be surprised it bit him, only to seek a cure in Jesus and take so much time before giving that idea up it was fatal.

Peace brother James. I'm still here and let me notice that the Bible is a proved hoax. That proof satisfies me and is said to be to the standard that satisfies the authorities, whoever they are, who worry about things like that. I don't. I notice it's not getting the press a similar proof for "The Protocols of International Zionism" got. So I find it entertaining to point that out on blogs now and then.

Who Stole My Creation Story

A gentle reminder to the rest of us,
and perhaps news to Rev Land:
(with a nod to Mr Gawn)

There are about 2,000 creation stories in human history, a good number of them pre-dating Genesis.

Genesis is by no means unique. It has sold more copies, but is one of the least original.

it steals details from many of its earlier cousins.

Why should we believe the Genesis story rather than the others?

The only honest answer is either:
there is absolutely NO good reason,
or
I blindly believe in the faith of my FAThers and so I believe everything they tell me.

Rev Land: there are 2,000 other religions out there in the world. Do you know anything about them? Do you think it is your moral obligation to teach your children that they exist?

Why did the bible steal passages from other earlier religions only to rewrite them and call them christianity?

If the bible is true then why does it preach hate? and as time goes on the bible goes through changes that most dont even know about. the book goes down its own evolutionary path!! it get watered down to make it sound better as time goes on to blindfold the average theist!!

below this are just one example in 3 parts of the evolution of the bible. they are the three exact same passages but in different bibles that are being watered down!!! the bible tells us to hate the jews!!!!

version #1:
John 8:44 - "You are of {your} father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own {nature,} for he is a liar and the father of lies. - New American Standard

version #2:
John 8:44 - `Ye are of a father--the devil, and the desires of your father ye will to do; he was a man-slayer from the beginning, and in the truth he hath not stood, because there is no truth in him; when one may speak the falsehood, of his own he speaketh, because he is a liar--also his father. Youth's Literal Translation

version #3:
John 8:44 - You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. - New International Version

now all of this is taken from your "Good Book" I didnt make this up!! look for your self, its there. This is the same book that tells us to bludgen out wives on wedding night in front of her father to death if she is not a virgin. and stone our own children to death in the main part of the town. with the help of others from the town. only for the child disprespecting them.

BGone:

Personally I would agree that a world without Flying Spaghetti Monster is just not worth experiencing.

I also suspect Flying Spaghetti Monster makes for a good test, anyone not bothered by Flying Spaghetti Monster but holds true to their own God is true to their faith.

To anyone who is upset by the Flying Spaghetti Monster is deep down probably unsure of their own faith.

To anyone who smiles and enjoys the Flying Spaghetti Monster... well just means they also love Spaghetti in general.

To anyone who is upset but still really likes the Flying Spaghetti Monster... well just means they are probably really upset that they accidentally just ate their God...

Just a guess no proof to back my statement. I also wonder how many people would be bothered by this most simple test of faith :)

Peace and acceptance in your travels
http://www.personaltao.com/

Why Don't You Gays, Blacks, and Atheists
Just Keep Quiet

Dear "Just Wondering"

The Washington Post is a public newspaper, one of the two most influential in the US.

When the Post initiates a forum called "On Faith," it is therefore a forum for public debate.

I understand that you wish you could just have a nice warm sharing with your fellow believers.

But there are other voices than the believers, just as the Blacks have other voices than the whites, and the Gays have other voices than the whites.

You would like us all to sink into the background while this forum strengthens the tyranny of the majority of believers in this country, a country which (unlike any European country) would never elect an atheist as President.

How dare we atheists be angry at this tyranny? How dare Gay people ask for equal rights?

If you want an insulated discussion, stay in your church.

If you are in a public forum, take the heat of a broad range of public opinion.

There has been MUCH more hate propogated by religious folks throughout history than there has been by secular humanists. (and NO, hitler and stalin and Mao WERE NOT secular humanists).

I will just shut up now and take my oppression politely and quietly.

Just Wondering:

I don't see any "question" being asked (for a personal religious experience).

I see a religious commentator discussing a personal religious experience of his own, being his conversion at age 7, and thereafter all manner of people "commenting" on that under the section entitled "Comments".

I think also the reason you see the same few people making comments is because we are the ones here at this moment - tomorrow you will see others making comments and some of us not doing so simply because we are not here any longer.

Thanks.

I want to say respectfully that non-believers should sit out this question. It asks for a personal religious experience, and you don't have one.

I think it is cruel to trash someone's spiritual experiences. And, why are you here? I see the same few people making the same comments all the time. I love you all, but you have no idea how ignorant and hateful you look. I hope you are having fun.

Aids, Condoms, and Fundamentalism

The WORST evil in the current world,
worse by far than Islamic terrorism

is the effort of the Catholic Church, the fundamentalist christians, and the US admisitration which kow tows to them,

of discouraging/preventing the dissemination (pardon the pun) of condoms in Africa to prevent AIDS.

It is just about unspeakable.

It shows a level of moral/ethical obtuseness that is reprehensible, and I am embarrassed that I myself am not doing more to combat the effect of this lobbying. I hope I start tomorrow doing more about it.

Thank "God" that the Gates foundation and other good groups are working on doing the right thing.

I don't think they have religious motives.

Matther 19:21 "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your posessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

if this is true, then why do churches stay tax free. they take in billions of daollars on tax free land and never give back to anybody but the other like them. does that seem riteous?

why do christian missionaries go to africa and tell them that using a condoms will send them to hell? its a sin. if i were preching to a land where 1 out of every 3 people were infected with aids or the hiv i wouldnt tell them to not use protection. in that way they are advocates to the most deadly of infections!!

If god is all knowing and all powerfull then why did he have to send jesus to retell us what god wasnt able to explain the first time? why couldnt he just instill the word into us all? of course he could. so why didnt he do that then? did he just want to have most of us go to hell? does that sound like an all knowing and all loving god to you?

why did he create us? did he need companionship? did he need help so he created the angels to help him build heaven? how could he have a "need"? he is forever and outside of time?

if jesus was real then why are there no contemporay writings of him? i know that if there was some guy running around to be the son of god and doing all kinds of miracles and healing the sick, then there would be at least one person that wrote about him during his life span.

James, vis-avis Bgone

Agree wholeheartedly - it is one of the fallacies often thrown at us that "they do even worse" to justify our doing whatever, e.g. torture of prisoners, spying on our own citizens.

Definitely helped for you to point out you were being as sarcastic as you could be -- sometimes it just doesn't come across well in type...

Bgone.

Say what?

Yes, OK, it's difficult to say, but I guess I admit that having your 10 year old commit suicide is worse child abuse than scarring your child with damnation fear. (NOTE: I AM being as sarcastic as I can be here).

Would that excuse beating your 5 year old with a bat?

Of course there are worse and more worse forms of child abuse.

Flying Spaghetti Monster - more Islamic than Judeo-Christian??

Having personally enjoyed even more than 70 Virgin Meatballs in my day, I must conclude thereto that FSM is closer to the Islamic religion than to the Judeo-Christian version. Only I didn't have to sacrifice myself for them!

Wait, I am in really bad shape physically.... maybe I did sacrifice myself for them!

Pmbster, every so slightly (not really tho) off-topic

James, I don't know for sure if you're being sarcastic. How about 10 year old Muslim children doing the suicide routine? Is that child abuse? There's degrees of everything. Different children react differently. Some are scared for life and other may, can't prove they don't behave themselves under threat of hell fire.

I had a priest tell me that no normal, hetrosexual males between the ages of 18 and 30 could say no to a woman. That was his "educated" (confessional?) opinion. Younger is a legally given, (statutory rape) can't say no. We are all different mentally like our finger prints, exactly the same but no two exactly alike.

"God loved me enough to send Jesus to die on the cross..."

It is the absolute absurdity and pointlessness of exactly this kind of statement that boggles the mind of some of us.

Why would someone's love involve sending someone to die for you?

"God loved me enough to send me a delicious Jamocha shake" honestly sounds better and more reasonable (assuming you care for Jamocha shakes, that is).

Yours is more on the order of "God loved me enough to kill my dog in a horrible manner."

Thank heaven then, eh?

--Pmbster

Child Abuse?

Many of us believe that

Inculcating a Child with the Fear of Damnation
if she doesn't follow her parents' religion

is a form of child abuse as much as
verbal abuse of the more conventional kind.

think of the lasting psychological effects that this inculcation of mortal fear has on people throughout their lives. think how infinitely better a humanistic positive *real* description of the universe, and of the consequences of moral actions, would have on a child.

It makes me shudder for the poor children who are raised this way.

Humor is the best choice for things easy to remember. Laughter is what keeps us going. When it hurts too much to cry then laugh at it.

The 7 year old that "felt" Jesus was probably dealt a life long mental handicap. That can be expressed as a demon in the mind that straddles the thought bridge connecting this life to whatever one can imagine after this life. That child was warned of Devil well before being introduced to Jesus.

If I have a concern, and I doubt that I do then it is for the saftey of the 7 year olds and yourger and older as well. I believe that every panelist here was dealt that blow and now shows the symptoms of it. Is it good for them? Bad for anyone?

"Jesus love me this I know" must have a reason even for a 7 year old to be so. Does it have anything to do with that indeterminent word, saved? Please explain what the 7 year old that feels the safety of it's parents needs to be saved from. It has all the faith nature felt necessary already installed in it's mind. What's the additional faith all about? What is the contest where one must be saved or lost? Who wins? Who loses? There's the imaginary loss of heaven and the real loss caused by the mental anguish imposed on the child before it's mentally mature enough to decide anything significant for itself.

Jesus Boot Camp, anyone?
Hitler Youth Camp, anyone?

Mommamadona, Casey
I have spoken to my God, Man on Fire hovering over bush. You cannot deny my God exists for I have seen a photograph taken 3,350 years ago of my God. My God is upset at your false Gods, Big Daddy With White Beard Settum on Throne and FSM God.

Now I'm proposing a contest, sporting event to determine which is the one true God so all can fall down and worship, safely without the threat of hell. In short, my God can whip both your Gods. To eaven things out I'm bringing my God's big brother God, Man Getting Hot Foot Standing on Burning Bush God. And if things don't go as planned, your Gods get in a lucky punch I'm calling time out and substituting Ball of Fire God. I gotcha outnumbered. My God is a trinity. Three divine Men on fire, (one invisible but talks) in one Hot God.

I've seen pictures of my God. Now say it don't exist.

"It was the moment when I went from accepting Jesus as THE Savior to accepting Him as MY Savior personally." You made a dangerous transition to Love, and Peace President Land. Jesus as "A" Savior. Not "THE" Savior is an important point to note. God Bless and keep you and yours always.

Jerry Rodgers:

I am not sure if its possible for the editors to separate the intelligent from the unintelligent, informed from uninformed, eclectic from myopic, respectful from contemptible?

It's too much a personal statement. respect however, is a different matter and we as posters should respect the stories and experiences of the panelists and each other... otherwise you disrespect your own life and stories.

The Reverend is secure in his belief, no amount of noodley opinions should change this, in fact I would hope FSM makes him smile, as it shows how diverse and different we all truly are.

Thank you very much Reverend Land. I do appreciate the time and your sharing of your experiences. I wish more people would openly and honestly share their life without fear of what other would say.

IN that is partially the secret to peace. Maybe more people can follow your example in this.

Peace and acceptance in your travels
http://www.personaltao.com/

BGone: and Bill C.:

The Flying Spaghetti Monster is God, may not be the God of Christians but no matter what else can be said FSM is a God of noodley proportions!

What a century we live in! At least people are worshiping our food again. We are what we eat after all (including our myths and stories I should add) That can't be all bad can it?

Peace and acceptance in your travels
http://www.personaltao.com/

Where are the editors of this "conversation"? In your opening statement of what this forum "On Faith" is supposed to be about, you state: "[H}ow can people engage in a conversation about faith and its implications in a way that sheds light rather than generates heat? ... we believe the first step is conversation--intelligent, informed, eclectic, respectful conversation... The point of our new online religion feature is to provide a forum for such sane and spirited talk."

Isn't the editor's job to separate the intelligent from the unintelligent, informed from uninformed, eclectic from myopic, respectful from contemptible? If it is, I must say you are doing a very poor job of it in the present instance.

Richard Land said:

The great 20th-century theologian, Karl Barth, said it best when he was asked to summarize his studies and beliefs. His answer: “Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so."

---------
This, apparently, is the pinnacle of modern Christian thought. Talk about damnation by faint praise.

Richard Land, 2006:

"I believe in just-war theory, and the first item in just-war criteria is that it has to be a just cause. I believe our cause in Iraq was just; I think it was one of the more noble things we've done."

Richard Land, 2002:

"Where are the peaceful followers of Islam? And why aren't they condemning the radical fanatics within their midst who are perpetuating crimes against humanity in the name of the Islamic religion?"

I believe that the Rev's personal experience was very important to him.

However,

the testimony of a 7-year old child would not convince me that Christ was my Savior unless I had been heavily indoctrinated in a socially pressurized situation (all the adults here believe this, don't you think you should too).

The point is that there are about 4 million more plausible "explanations" for this 7 yeara old experience than that Jesus Saves.

Secondly, the Barth quote
Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so."
fits perfectly with the 7 year old understanding.
Didn't our parent tell us Santa Claus was real?

Most seriously, the bible tells you to kill your child if she talks back too much, to wipe out other races if they are in the way of the promised land, and to make sure you behave well if you happen to be a slave.

How utterly childish, and immoral, to un=critically accept what the Bible tells you.
To think that you actually do is a serious delusion.

" Bill C.:

Do not mock personal religious experience. Only the close minded and spiritually ignorant reject out of hand an individual's personal relationship with the world's divine creator. Without this relationship we are hopelessly lost and cannot hope to find meaning in this world. I too accepted the power of my savior as a child. "

Yes, you are right about the mocking. But, the Reverend has been out there in public (EGO) stating that long, narrow line (ENVY)of the inherancy of the bible and is the leader of his flock of I would say are true believers in what he's saying is the last word.

I believe I've heard the good Reverend state in public that the only way a person can go to heaven is by taking Jesus as your ONLY savior and that the bible is the actual word of god.

Like I said - BIG DADDY WITH WHITE BEARD ONNA THRONE. Classic Organized Religion AlphaMale.

Now, for the reality check on this bubbleview:

THAT view is a mockery to 52% of the human race.

And, if the Reverend is truthful with himself, there IS another story.

I just arrived a while back from a distant planet and am just lerning earth language. I use usage to determine the meaning of words. There's two that have me baffled, saved and faith. I see them used together, "I am saved because I have faith." One saying the equal where I come from would be laughed into a different gallaxy, (a mental institution).

Try it. Walk up to a group of people and say, saved. What does it mean? Absolutely nothing. The same for faith. Faith and saved are meaningless words that only give meaning to other words. I have faith in something. I am saved from something.

One form of humor is the misuse of words. I'm finally getting it, (in your lingo). You're not being funny when you say I'm saved because I have faith, just ignorant.

Richard,

Your testimony is powerful and accurate for many who have found Jesus. I hope that since then you have come to find that he didn't simply die for you.

He lived for you.

Bill C, that was angel hair spaghetti?

Just one thing left to decide. Is the Flying Spaghetti Monster a God of a Devil, (notice how politically correct I am using caps to spell supernatural beings). I need more time for a complete analysis but the preiliminary consensus here is that it's a Devil. Heaven knows they shoul know the difference what with their Man On Fire God, the father of their savior, Jesus. Let's see you prove that's not God.

Oops. http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul does just that. Proves the father of Jesus, Man On Fire God is really Devil. Perplexing.

Richard Land and I were born again the same year, and very nearly the same day, as I date my own spiritual birth on Easter of 1953. He was much more precocious than I however, because I had been 27 years in this world before coming to the realization that I really needed help, and that no one could help me with what I really needed but God. I can't tell it all here, but you can read it in "The Gospel According to Jerry: Confessions of a Fool for Christ," www.afoolforChrist.com

Do not mock personal religious experience. Only the close minded and spiritually ignorant reject out of hand an individual's personal relationship with the world's divine creator. Without this relationship we are hopelessly lost and cannot hope to find meaning in this world. I too accepted the power of my savior as a child.

When the Flying Spaghetti Monster touched me with his noodly appendage all I could do was submit myself to his will and let him into my heart. He has guided me ever since and I have never been without.

Don't believe in my FSM. How dare you!!! He has given me life and a love of mankind. How dare you question his saving power you heathen!!! His noodly appendage all cool and gooey wrapped around my heart like a hand lifting me from the bottom of a dark cold sea.

UNLESS WE RELEASE ALL PIRATES FROM JAIL GLOBAL WARMING WILL DEVOUR THE EARTH.

IO dare you to prove the Flying Spaghetti Monster is not real. Just try. Until then I will believe in him and follow His teachings!

www.venganza.org

MOMMAMADONA, if you keep that up you're going to spoil the hallucination.

Not only that, it's not BigDaddy with white beard, it's MAN ON FIRE you must have faith in else you're going to be set on fire to burn forever and ever and then they are going to burn you a little bit longer to be sure. Come on and get terrorized like them. I'm deathly afraid of MAN ON FIRE for he might set me on fire too. That's bad.

Matther 19:21 "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your posessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

I'll bet this does not mean, those who choose to NOT sell their posession and give to the poor, will NOT have treasure in heaven. And, without saying it necessary, they KEEP their treasure on earth. Just a silly question but how sure are you this is so? Isn't that a rather large bet?

Big Daddy with WhiteBeard sitting on the Throne in Heaven. OK, got it.

Great soundbite answer. Just like most of your appearances on the talking head circuit.

Now, can you tell us what REALLY happened?