Long history of hostility between Mormons and evangelicals

First of all, my user ID is Eichendorff, not Eichman. Perhaps you need a remedial reading course.

There is no violation of Doctrine and Covenants, Section 134. The Church does not use its influence to restrict anybody's rights. Since there is no right anywhere to same-sex marriage, your argument fails.

Latter-day Saints do not attempt to "mainstream" themselves as you put it. They are Christians, they always have been Christians, and they always will be Christians. Nothing you say or do can change that eternal fact.

The Church as an institution and its individual members have the Constitutional right to express their views and attempt to influence public policy within the law, just like everyone else.

Church leaders have no "cultish" power (that's a really stupid term) over anybody or anything. The Church leadership in Salt Lake City have no idea who participated and who didn't. Many members did participate in support of Proposition 8, and many others did not. The fact that the LDS support may or may not have made the difference in whether the effort was successful or not is neither here nor there. The fact is that it was a broad coalition of Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Latter-day Saints and others. Your argument fails here, too. (Your batting average isn't very good, is it? In fact, it's zero.) Members were encouraged to do all they can, and they made up their own minds how much to donate and participate. A perfectly normal thing to do.

As far as polygamy is concerned, some members did continue the practice after the Church officially abolished it in 1890. Most of those who did so lived in Mexico, where there was no law against it. The Church then extended the ban worldwide a few years later. But since there were those who continued, then that must mean the leaders don't have this so-called "cultish" control after all.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a religious organization whose members believe its doctrine and mission and devote their time and means to further that mission. No different from other people who are devoted to their religion.

I wonder if you don't see conspiracies everywhere. Maybe you should talk to your therapist about it.

Eichman, you can try to make us believe Mormons are "really nice people" all you want. But your history as well as current events contain facts that show it is all veneer - all keeping up appearances (like a wolf wearing a nice wool sweater).

Mormons will quote their "Articles of Faith" and other scriptures from their "Standard Works" in an attempt to convince you they are "mainstream" and Christian.

But we know from history that Mormons believe the word of their living leaders above scripture, and they are not above "lying for the Lord".

Case in point: The Mormon Church leader told all Mormons to "do all you can" to fight against same-sex marriage (Prop 8 in
California). This despite the fact that LDS scriptures clearly state:

"It is NOT JUST for religions to mingle religious influence with civil government, whereby one religious society is fostered and another proscribed in its spiritual privileges, and the individual rights of its members, as citizens, denied" (D&C134).

It doesn't matter whether same-sex marriage is a good thing or not (I have my own opinions on that). What matters is that I have shown without doubt that Mormons and their leaders will violate THEIR OWN sacred scriptures and principles when it suits them.

I showed that even polygamy was continued secretly for around 10 years after LDS Church leaders lied and swore to Congress that the practice had ceased in the Church (see Quinn).

This means that not only will common Mormons lie for the Lord (the Church), so will the Church leaders! Even under oath to Congress!

So stop denying what your Church really is: a secretive, elitist, imperialistic cult aspiring to "put an end to all nations", and rule the world for a thousand years when "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess" that the Mormon Jesus is in charge!

The last thing this country needs is a cult-member in the White House!

ROM8 and Eichman,

Please specify exactly what I have written that is "deceptive" (untrue, inaccurate, wrong).

Anyone who researches it will find I have written only the truth, in context, accurately portrayed.

But YOU try to divert the point (we call that using "red herring" arguments).

My arguments showed clearly and factually that:

1) Mormon leaders will "lie for the Lord" (as demonstrated by their false report to congress regarding the practice of polygamy)

2) Mormon leaders will violate their own sacred scriptures (D&C 134) to mix religious influence with civil government in a way that denies other citizens of their equal rights under the law (Proposition 8). It is well-documented that the LDS Church was the deciding factor in Prop 8.

3) Mormon leaders have such cultish power over the members of their Church that they can (and did for Prop8) "command" their followers to deprive others of civil rights, and it is written clearly in their Temple oaths and covenants that members are expected to give all their possessions and use all their positions and opportunities ("everything with which the Lord has blessed you or may bless you") for the building up of the LDS Church. This includes oaths to give one's life for the building up of the LDS Church. That is an explicit oath regarding a willingness to "give one's life" (suicide) for the Church.

4) The LDS Temple ceremonies at the time Mitt Romney was "endowed" included graphic depictions of cutting one's throat, disembowling oneself, and other acts of suicide as a penalty for revealing the secret oaths and failing to be faithful to them.

These are not lies. These are facts. These are not taken out of context. They are true, accurate, and reliable.

As such, your unsupported assertion that "nothing about Mormon beliefs in general, or Mormon temple ceremonies in particular, that would cause a Mormon public official to violate his or her oath of office" is just not true.

As I have shown, Mitt Romney and other temple Mormons have made explicit oaths and covenants of allegiance to their "Prophet" that take priority over their political responsibilities, civil government, civil law ("the philosophies of men" and "the evil world"), ethics, and common sense.

Finally, you (ignorantly) wrote: "I do give you credit for finally identifying your real motive..."

Nothing I wrote indicated I am a "proponent of same-sex marriage". That is your false assumption. My personal beliefs are irrelevant. What IS relevant is that you have provided NO arguments to counter anything I have reported about Mormonism and Mitt Romney.

Your counter-argument: "Vanka, your comments are stupid". Very intelligent (NOT). You will get a long way with that one.

The efforts by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to encourage their members to support Proposition 8 in California was for one purpose only: to preserve marriage as it has existed for thousands of years and to prevent the government from redefining it. The Church's involvement had absolutely nothing to do with anybody's rights.

There is no inherent right to same-sex marriage. None. The law as far as marriage was concerned treated everyone the same. Anybody, including gays, could get married any time they wanted. They just had to marry someone of the opposite sex in order for the marriage to be valid and lawful.

Those who demand same-sex marriage are not really interested in rights. That is just a red herring. What they are interested in is legitimacy. They don't want to be condemned either as unlawful or immoral. That is the issue. One thing is for sure, lawmakers may do what they may, but "same-sex marriage" will always be immoral and deserving of condemnation.

The idea that Mitt Romney, or any other Latter-day Saint, should not be president because he makes sacred covenants of devotion to God, righteousness, service to fellow men, as well as an obligation to defend his faith and the Kingdom of God on Earth is utterly ludicrous. We have canonized people for centuries because they refused to compromise their beliefs.

You really have to observe real Mormons to determine whether they can hold public office. How have Church members acquitted themselves as citizens and as elected public officials? I think there is no doubt that they have done so with distinction.

Mormons consider the Constitution to be a divinely inspired document. They believe that America is a "land choice above all other lands." They are among the most patriotic Americans you can possibly find. Are Mormons secretly conspiring to overthrow the United States? Do they spread subversion and sedition? If you really believe that, then I have some ocean-front property to sell you in Mongolia.

I must say, Vanka, the stupidity of your arguments boggles the mind.

Vanka,

It is you who is being deceptive. You are the one taking Mormon beliefs out of context in order to portray the Mormon church as the boogey-man. You clearly know enough about the Mormon church to know that the Mormon eschatalogical belief structure is not material different that any number of other Christian faiths. Like many others traditions, the Mormon faith holds that the resurrected Jesus will return, and when he does all will know that Jesus was and is the Christ.

There is nothing about Mormon beliefs in general, or Mormon temple ceremonies in particular, that would cause a Mormon public official to violate his or her oath of office.

You say the the Mormons practiced polygamy for an additional 10 years after it was officially ended by their church. Even if that is true, it still ended more than a century ago.

When you quote peoples beliefs out of context in an attempt to imply an inaccurate conclusion you are still lying. Fortunately, anyone who has taken the time to get to know a real Mormon knows it.

I do give you credit for finally identifying your real motive. It is no secret that proponents of same-sex marriage are trying to delegitimize those who support traditional marriage by emphasizing Mormon involvement in Prop 8. The widespread ignorance of the Mormon faith tradition makes them an easy boogey man.

But your argument is simply inaccurate. It is not the Mormons or the millions of other religious Americans that supported Prop 8 that are trying to impose their religious beliefs. They are not the ones who have, time and again, used their allies on the courts of this country to create by fiat rights that don't exist in the Constitution. Likewise, they are not the ones using the courts to elevate those imaginary rights above the explicit constitutional protections of religious freedom.

I might add that they are not the ones on comment boards across the internet intentionally lying about other peoples' beliefs.

It is true that Mormons do have some peculiar aspects of their theology that differentiate them from many of the other Christian faith tranditions. But there is nothing secret about it. Mormons across the world are more than happy to tell you about what they believe. (In fact, you might have seen a few of them, they send out a whole bunch of young people in name tags.)

"deluded"

Yup. That's a good word for it.

Mark
Always seek the truth.

Mormons will quote their "Articles of Faith" and other scriptures from their "Standard Works" in an attempt to convince you they are "mainstream" and Christian.

But we know from history that Mormons believe the word of their living leaders above scripture, and they are not above "lying for the Lord".

Case in point: The Mormon Church leader told all Mormons to "do all you can" to fight against same-sex marriage (Prop 8 in California). This despite the fact that LDS scriptures clearly state:

"It is NOT JUST for religions to mingle religious influence with civil government, whereby one religious society is fostered and another proscribed in its spiritual privileges, and the individual rights of its members, as citizens, denied" (D&C134).

Even polygamy was continued secretly for around 10 years after LDS Church leaders lied and swore to Congress that the practice had ceased in the Church (see Quinn).

So, please, stop the lies. Stop denying what your Church really is: a secretive, elitist, imperialistic cult aspiring to "put an end to all nations", and rule the world for a thousand years when "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess" that the Mormon Jesus is in charge!

The last thing this country needs is a cult-member in the White House!

Faith is one thing. But oaths and loyalties that take priority above the United States of America and its Constitution are threats to the sovereignty of this nation.

When Mitt Romney went through the Mormon temple, he became "endowed". In order to become endowed, Mormons have to pass an interview (like a catechism for Catholics). The endowment ritual includes many things Mormons are not allowed to talk about outside of the Temples. These secret ("sacred") things include special promises and covenants Mormons make to the Church and to God. One of these "oaths" promises total and complete loyalty to the LDS Church and its leaders, including being willing to give all your possessions to the Church if needed.

The oath is something like this:

"Each of you bring your right arm to the square. You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, ...that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the Kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion."

They also promise:

"And as Jesus Christ has laid down his life for the redemption of mankind, so we should covenant to sacrifice all that we possess, even our own lives if necessary, in sustaining and defending the Kingdom of God (LDS Church)."

Mitt Romney has made this oath, and repeats this oath each time he returns to an LDS Temple.

For a POTUS to have made such a secret oath violates the oath of office of the POTUS. The POTUS must not have ANY higher loyalty than to the United States of America and Constitution.

"Endowed" Mormons should be automatically disqualified because of their secret oaths in their temples that place their loyalty to the LDS Church above their loyalty to the United States of America.

Back a few years ago when Mitt Romney became "endowed", Mormon temple oaths included "penalties" for breaking the oaths:

"We, and each of us, covenant and promise that we will not reveal any of the secrets of this, the first token of the Aaronic priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign or penalty. Should we do so, we agree that our throats be cut from ear to ear and our tongues torn out by their roots."

"We and each of us do covenant and promise that we will not reveal the secrets of this, the Second Token of the Aaronic Priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign, grip or penalty. Should we do so, we agree to have our breasts cut open and our hearts and vitals torn from our bodies and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field."

Mormons claim to be Christians. Read Matt7:21-23 to see what Jesus said about such claims.

The idea that "Mormons have had a long tradition of considering themselves as other than Christians" is, to be frank, ridiculous. Everything Latter-day Saints believe and do is centered on Christ. It has been this way since the very beginning of the Church. Members study the Bible in Sunday School two years out of every four; the whole of the subject matter of the Book of Mormon has Christ, his gospel, and his atonement as its central theme; the purpose of the Book of Mormon and main thrust of Joseph Smith's message was that Jesus is the Christ and he speaks to us in our day. Other than Christian? What pathetic nonsense.

Mormons are not really interested in "mainstreaming" themselves so much as to finally get the message of their devotion to Christ through all the anti-Mormon rubbish that exists everywhere.

I will be 60 years old soon and I've been an active Latter-day Saint for all of those years. Never in my lifetime have I heard references, veiled or otherwise, to the White Horse prophecy from a single leader of the Church. I watch General Conference, I read the Ensign, I served a full-time mission, I served as a local bishop, and I have studied the Church curriculum for decades.

You are seriously deluded.

@Rom08:

"I know that your whole thing is to focus people on a few selected beliefs of some 19th century Mormons in an effort to paint all Mormons as crazies--probably because you disagree with the political participation of the members of their faith in standing up for biblical marriage."

Actually, Rom you don't 'know' anything of the kind.

"But anyone who knows a real Mormon knows that their religion is about trying to following the example of Jesus Christ with a focus on faith, families and service."

A little faith-affirming buzz, there Rom?

Mormons have had a long tradition of viewing themselves as something other than Christians.* This started to change in the 1980's as the church's efforts to mainstream itself began and its desire for members in high places grew.

* Most hilariously illustrated during planning for the 1960's NY Worlds Fair, when the Mormon church complained that the LDS pavilion was too close to the those of the "Christian" churches.

=========================

You say that the White Horse Prophecy has been 'officially' repudiated: obviously the brethren haven't gotten the word, because I still hear veiled references to it on occasion.

JLFuller

at the risk of being repedative -- It's in the bible.

Mark
Always seek the truth.

Namaste

I like your response to FREDJ1 and will leave it at that.

Mark
Always seek the truth.

I am glad someone brought the subject of baptism for the dead. Retiree11 is affronted by the practice. Let me explain. First, baptism for the dead does not make one a Mormon. Conversion is by acknowledgment only. We also believe the dead are being preached to by Christ and his missionaries and those who accept the gospel still need baptism and other ordinances performed by those with authority. Of course those who have a different theology will disagree but none have said they think what we do in temples has any validity so I for one can't see why they object. But yet they do and I respect that. If we are right then what we are doing has eternal implications. If we are wrong what we do is meaningless.

Citizens of the United States can, individually or in whatever groups they choose, advocate any political position they want. They can contribute to campaigns and try to persuade others to do the same. They can also use their religious beliefs to inform their political choices. The Constitution guarantees freedom of religion and speech. Nowhere is there a prohibition on religious thought or practice as a philosophical basis for a political position.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as an institution, is strictly neutral in political matters, but not moral ones. The Church considers marriage to be ordained of God and as such is a moral issue. No one has the right to change its definition, which is what the advocates of "same-sex marriage" are trying to do. The Church will never accept the idea that marriage can ever be between anyone except a man and a woman.

Individual members of the Church are free to support the preservation of Biblical marriage and the Church is also free to express its views and encourage its members to support moral causes. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the Church's tax status. Enemies of the Church just like to use that to try and intimidate the Church. It won't work.

A much more accurate title of the article would be: Long History of Evangelical Hostility Toward Mormons.

I am a lifelong member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I have lived in two European countries as well as the United States. I have never met a Mormon who was hostile to Evangelicals. I have, however, met plenty of Evangelicals who hate Mormons. PLenty.

@fredj1

The White Horse Prophecy was never accepted by the Mormons and was officially repudiated almost a century ago.

http://byustudies.byu.edu/showTitle.aspx?title=8625

I know that your whole thing is to focus people on a few selected beliefs of some 19th century Mormons in an effort to paint all Mormons as crazies--probably because you disagree with the political participation of the members of their faith in standing up for biblical marriage.

But anyone who knows a real Mormon knows that their religion is about trying to following the example of Jesus Christ with a focus on faith, families and service.

Namaste.

@volkmare:

"There are no prophecies that there will be a Mormon president."

You are being far too modest, Mark - and perhaps a wee disingenuous?

Mormon culture is driven _much_ more by ad-hoc trends, blowing winds, whispered innuendo, etc than it is by formal doctrine and prophecy.

There is most _certainly_ an LDS tradition of a Mormon president - one who will save Democracy from imminent collapse.

And - unless you are somehow totally insulated from LDS culture, you are likely already familiar with it: The White Horse Prophecy.

No, it's not usually written down, not formalized as "doctrine" - but there it is wafting behind closed-doors in the Mormon community: a Mormon president will save the country, winning kudos and adulation from the entire world-wide community.

"In recent decades, both groups have emerged as important political forces in the United States."

If there was ever a statement made by a religious official that proves beyond doubt that churches should not be tax-exampt, this is it.

When the religious leaders, themselves, are crowing about how much political influence they have, shouldn't the government be taking a look at their tax status?

There have been several postings made here that are incorrect, or misinformed about the Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints. I will try to respond to some of them briefly here.

No, I am not a spokesman for the LDS (Mormon) church. I am just a member of the bishopric of the ward I live in. I was raised catholic, had issues with their doctrine, and became a Mormon after several months of investigation.

Much of the postings here don’t seem to realize one thing: the LDS church follows the bible without ignoring what is inconvenient. That in its self should answer most questions, but here are a few details.

A posthumous baptism, or baptisms for the dead, is in the bible. Jesus tells us in the bible that you cannot return to his father’s house without baptism. How could he make that restriction without providing a path that gives all a chance to return, even those that have not learned of him? Not doing so would make him an unjust father.

You have a free will both on this earth, and in the spirit world. You can accept or reject that posthumous baptism at any time. Therefore that baptism gives you the opportunity wither or not you want to be able to return to heavenly fathers house. Without it you don’t have that choice.

Mormons are encouraged to get involved with community life. There are no prophecies that there will be a Mormon president. There are several Mormon congressmen, both democrat and republican. This includes the majority leader of the Senate. None of them nave any intention of imposing their faith upon the country, doing so would be against the constitution as well as our faith.

As for “tithing and activity regulations” within the LDS church: there are none per say. The bible, however, requires tithing, we do collect it, and members are free to declare to the bishop wither or not they are full tithe payers. You are not required to make that declaration unless you wish to enter a house of god, a temple. The constitution does not permit forcing the country to pay tithes or be active in their church, and no Mormon would attempt to do so. It would be against the bible and our faith.

Mark
Always seek the truth.

When I was a teenager, I was shocked to learn there were other religions than Christianity. The last course I took for my undergraduate degree was 'Religions of the World'. I learned that all religions teach compassion, etc. One has no control over which religion one's parents subscribe to nor their influence during one's formulate years. Why can't one look at the common likes?

Fifty yours ago everything was positive - why now the Islam terrorist? Why the negative? One must suppress the negative and unite the positive, if possible. I agree that the Islam's want 'revenge for what ever reason now', but why now after thousands of years of peace? Has anyone tried to figure-out the change of opinion? All I hear is 'pointing fingers' rather than analyzing the 'why' - why after all these years have they become negative - I hear no analysis from the public/comments or government nor how it can be countered. Why can't these intelligent minds focus on solutions rather than playing 'one-up-one-ship' among themselves? Such a loss of talent!!!

The opposition to same sex marriage shows that Mormons not willing to open their heart to other human beings that mother nature gave them a special set of genetic codes. There is no blind as the person that keep his/her hearth close.

I don't know. I think if you're a member of a cult whose founder died @ age 38 with 27 wives ,you mihjt have a problem with EVERYBODY, not just the BIBLE THUMPERS!

How many Mormon parents have disowned/condemned/abandoned their gay or lesbian children? How many Mormon parents have disowned/condemned/abandoned their children or questioning their faith and referred to their children as Satan?

How many children have killed themselves for being the condemned offspring of these religious fanatics.

The only reason Mormons are being considered suitable candidates for the Republican party is this: John Birch Society lunatics and bigots have taken over that party.

I say run them all out on a rail.

I hope this is a calm enough forum to let me express the only concern I have about a Mormon president. While I have many Mormon friends and agree with the comments that they are very moral people, I am concerned about the church itself. While this was a similar argument for the Catholic church, I feel that the Mormon church has a lot of control over its members. My discussions with Mormons have included the statements there are regulations to monitor tithing, church activity, and everyday living. I would love to find out if these statements from them are false. I am also worried about some of the prophesies regarding the Mormon who will become president and whether a Mormon President will attempt to fulfill these. I would actually like to be proven wrong, for my vote does hang in the balance. I appreciate the help.

@MHawke--

My point is, exclusion isn't unique to LDS churches...

"evangelicals have a lot of work to do in developing a theological rationale for life in a pluralistic democratic culture." The LDS folks I've spent time with are simply much nicer people to be around. Bible thumping baptists or what have you, have ZERO understanding of pluralist society and are DISRESPECTFUL of difference. Just ask Black southerners.

ceebee2

The point is that they had no use for me unless I became one of them.

LDSers have to fight their own history when it comes to equality.

One of my complaints against the LDSers is their issuing posthumous baptisms. This is an egregious affront to anyone of any faith, or anyone who doesn't feel the need to practice a faith.

Mormons are accumulating all of these family records partly so that they can posthumously baptize hundreds of millions of people over time. Just because my niece is an adult convert to the LDS church does not grant her the right to posthumously baptize her father (my brother) or any of my other non-Mormon relatives.

The LDS church has been sued for doing this, particularly when they have baptized Jewish Holocaust survivors.

One of my evangelical friends once described to me how he was able to baptize his own grandchildren. He told me this with great pride. I then asked him what distinguished his being able to baptize from a lay-Mormon being able to baptize. He was livid with anger! How could I make such a comparison?

@MHawke--

I can say the same thing about the Assembly of God Church and Evangelical Lutheran Church in my hometown. So what's your point?

When I was a teen we had a LDS church down the street. They had a basketball league in their gym during the winter. Once they found out that our interest in their church was neither growing nor sincere, they kicked us out.

That's all I've got.

Australia has a female atheist Prime Minister and it is in the most peacful period in a long time, creating a undercurrent of mistrust between religions has been a small minded game for over 5000 years, with 164 differnt sects religions and faiths cults ideals on the planet, pick one pick two pick whatever suits you,just dont use it to run a country,religion and politics dont mix, read your history.

will24

You speak as if people are converted against their will, and specific groups are targeted for conversion. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Like I said before, Jesus has instructed us (the church of “Jesus Christ”) to spread his word. If those who listen to his word decide to join us, that is great.

No group is targeted, and no one is forced.

You’re right about one thing: Jesus is love and compassion.

Mark
Always seek the truth.

the fundamental problem with both groups is that they think theirs to be the only true religion on earth, and that they must convert Hindus, Buddhists, etc. to their version of Christianity. It is an unfortunate display of arrogance that continues to plague cultures throughout the world. The evangelical Christians especially are among the most hateful religious cults on earth, and have the audacity to promote their absurd philosophy in the name of Jesus Christ, the embodiment of love and compassion.

We dont have any issues with Evangelicals.

We are instructed by Jesus to preach his gospel as are Evangelicals. Besides, Evangelicals are our christian brothers.

We are not in competition with each other.

The only work that needs to be done is to spread the word of Jesus.

Mark
Always seek the truth.