Why I Took Holy Communion

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UNIVERSAL RELIGIONISM!
This Most-Loving Prayer was also addressed to Pope Benedict XVI – Most Faithfully!
The Most Criminal, World-Wide, RELIGIONISM – Ever!
All that Our Whole World has ever needed - and still presently needs, foremost more than ever – is A National Incorrupt Reevaluation!
“HAPPY HOLIDAYS”!!!
“MERRY CHRISTMAS”!!!
“HAPPY NEW YEAR”!!!
“HAPPY NEW CENTURY”
ALMIGHTY GOD’S TRUE NUCLEAR WORLD PRACTICAL DEMOCRACY; THAT IS, UNIVERSAL INDIVIDUAL EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO ACHIEVE GOD’S BEST’S HUMAN RIGHTS (GIFTS), shall never exist for us in our “America”, and in our “Free” “Nuclear” World, UNTIL GOD’S CRUCIAL DETERMINANTS – UNIVERSAL FUNCTIONAL LITERACY and UNIVERSAL GOOD-SAMARITAN HEALTH INSURANCE – are Legislatively Compelled (Constitutionally) as a Fully-Punishing Humanitarian Criminal Law; that is, until Our Insatiable Ultra Filthy-Wealthy Corporative “American” Government so give the True Example, OF SUCH A SACRED UNIVERSALLY HUMAN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY, for Our Whole, Totally Exploited, and so Totally Suffering Illiterate, Healthless, and Helpless “American” World!
Almighty God did not write HIS BIBLE just to “Inspire” only The Implacable “Sacrosanct” “Religionist” Corporations of His World to use IT as toilet paper – that is, to use IT as Such a Globalized, Religionist, Materialist, MUM-PIOUS, SO EQUALLY TERRORIST, NUCLEAR, SUICIDAL, SUBLIMINAL INHUMAN EXPLOITATION!
Why “THE TRULY UNIVERSAL CHURCH” - as “FREE AND SEPARATE FROM THE STATE” NEVER TAKE ALL OF THESE, AS THE TRUE DAILY PREACHING INITIATIVE???!!!
BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT “THE TRUE SERVANTS OF ALMIGHTY GOD” – AS THEY SO “FERVENTLY CLAIM” TO BE -- BUT OF GOVERNMENTAL “COMFORTABLY” RAPACIOUS CORPORATIVE INHUMAN WORLD POLITICS!!!
MAY WE TRULY PRAY THAT WE ALL TRUE SOLID AMERICANS REALLY ENABLE ALMIGHTY GOD TO BLESS (SAVE) OUR MOST BELOVED TRUE AMERICA!!!
OTHERWISE, ANY OTHER CRIME OR ABORTION IS AN “INNOCENT” BY-PRODUCT!!!

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Dear Sally,

I am a member of a denomination, the Community of Christ, that moved from communion for members only to communion for those who had accepted Christ in the 1990's. I also hold a ministerial office in that denomination, and have for about forty years. In my various roles over the years, what to do about communion has often been the subject of decision and policy.

It was my privilege to present the legislation that moved us to a more open stance to our world conference. One of the key principles that guided me in making that stance, and in all matters of church practices is this question: In whose service am I acting?

My question to myself is another form of the WWJD question, but it holds for me this added layer: if it is my sensibilities, beliefs or practices that are on the line in order to serve what I percieve to fulfill God's inclusive purpose, I am willing to give up any of those things to be one who bears God's love for God's creation and creature to someone, so be it.

In this case, your choice was to connect with God and Tim Russert, or to satisfy Donahue or the sensibilities of the priesthood as represented by Martin. Clearly, you approached the Eucharist with the proper attitude and heart - else the priest might have not served you. Equally clearly, then, you made the right choice and in doing so accepted God's compassion for you in your own grief, and your connectedness with "Brother Tim."

Grace and Peace,

Charlie Curry

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Sally, I haven't read the 500+ posts to this column, so I don't know all that's been said, so forgive me.

You shouldn't have taken communion; I sense that you knew that before hand. I hope that that the next time you attend a Catholic mass, for whatever reason, you abstain from receiving the Sacrament. The absence of 'guidance'at the Mass as to who or who should not receive communion is really not relevent. The Catholic Church is the only faith that subscribes that the Eucharist is the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ, not a representation or a symbol, and reserves receipt of the blessed Eucharist for Catholics (and not every Catholic e.g. only those that have been provided instruction as to the meaning and significance of the Eucharist, and to those who have not been stained by mortal sin since their last confession). Anecdotal evidence notwithstanding, it's not the prerogative of any Catholic (or non Catholic) to rationalize or suggest that it's OK for you or to give you (or any other non Catholic) permission or a dispensation to receive Communion. Period. That said, God bless you.

Ms Quinn,

You performed an act of love in taking Communion at the funeral of Tim Russert. I feel you owe no apology for your action. In fact, you are owed the apology for you are not the one who acted improperly, but those who are condemning this act of love. Anything done truly and totally out of love can not be wrong.

I truly approve of and respect your act.

Matthew 22:36-40 These religious leaders had made almost an art form of classifying all the various laws and giving them relative degrees of importance, so in asking Jesus this question, their aim was to test Him. His answer stunned them: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

I would put the legalise found in the postings about who is worthy to receive the Eucharist below squarely in the same category as the Pharisees mentioned in this central tenent of Christianity (Matthew 22)

WWJD concerning a professed believer who believes that the Eucharist is his body and blood, has confessed his sins and who approaches the alter with an open heart ---- but was a Lutheran or Episcopalian? Who knows? Are you claiming to know his mind about something that was beyond hypothetical more than 200 years ago?

Dear Sally

It should give you great consolation to know that during Catholic World Youth Day in Sydney this year, one million Communion Hosts had been made and when Communion was distributed to the 350 thousand who attended the Papal Mass (including the Mass by the Archbishop of Sydney which was attended by about a hundred thousand people), nobody was asked not to partake of the Communion. Communion was offered to all who came forward to receive it.

I will pray for Ms Quinn whose apology is basically
"screw you Catholics, I'll do what I want".

Dear Sally Quinn,

I have read and heard so much about Tim Russert, but I have yet to hear anyone in the media say, "Tim was the greatest guy I knew. Tim was Catholic. Maybe I should become Catholic, too." What was it that Tim knew and practiced and beleived? Many apparently asked him, and he answered many questions, but for each individual to truly come to that great Love that Tim seemed to live, it seems to me that prayer is needed. Have you considered simply asking Christ to reaveal Himself to you? You can ask Our Lady to teach you about her Son. I am praying that you will find the peace and love that you found so admirable in Tim Russert.

"Since you mentioned Legion of Mary in your post and your speculation that Rosary may have been integrated to Benedictine spirituality"

i didnt speculate on anything- the bendictines say the 3 mysteries in the same mammer as the blue army-

they also have their own partuclar rosary- many orders do-

"I have not had anything to do with Parish priests (I attend Mass that is all)"

i'm at a loss there soja-

maybe you should go to your parish priest-
thats what they are there for-

dont recommend wikipedia to people- it is filled with false information and bad opinions-

the purpose of the blue army is to coalesce parishoners to do good deeds in their community, devote their intentions to prayer- and support each other- they are a marian org-

their group is based upon the traditions of Saint Louis Marie Grignion de Montfort form the late 1600's.

this is why i dislike wikipedia-

maybe you really are not aware of it-but go bakc and read your apology- the next sentence is a slur against my faith-

soja- your dig that the qur'an is derived entirely from the bible is not only disrespectful and condescending- it is completely untrue-

"Having read the Quran myself I wonder why you had to convert to Islam, after all almost all of the religion in the Quran is taken from the Bible."

if you really are not aware of how deeply offensive and belittling a statement that is about my own holy book-

then we should, as i have requested repeatedly-
agree to disagree, and leave it at that.

for catholic information go to new advent or catholic encyclpedia-

i only use wikipedia as a thrid or fourth resource, if at all- and only after ive presented sources reflecting the adherents of a particular faith-

i think i have expressed my disdain for wikipedia many times on these boards-

the benedictines - as i said-

"and we vowed to say all 3 mysteries every day-
to my understanding the benedictines also pray in this way-

but i'm going from memory- i may be mistaken-
i don't think it's in wikipedia"

not- as you state-
"
Legion of Mary is a lay Catholic movement and has nothing to do with the Benedictine Monasticism (St Benedict 480-550)."

i didnt say that - but you have been misunderstanding and misprepresnting my words from the inception-

thats why i try to paste peoples actual word- to repsect their expression instead of reinterpreting for them or putting words in their mouth-

but ive told you this many times-

it is not for the reasons you state that my posts annoy you so personally-

but i will refrain from making personal comments about you based on my own observation-

just be the best catholic you can be-

i have told you many times i have no desire to embarrass you- but if you keep making these passive agressive remarks that build in their own momentum- at some point i may be forced to do it to get you to stop insulting my religion- no matter how benignly you try to make it seem-

and you know i can do it- so please stop-

Victoria

Since you mentioned Legion of Mary in your post and your speculation that Rosary may have been integrated to Benedictine spirituality, I thought it might be a good idea to add Wikipedia links for the basics on both topics for those interested in getting to know the Catholic church better.

Legion of Mary is a lay Catholic movement and has nothing to do with the Benedictine Monasticism (St Benedict 480-550).

The Dominican order (St Dominic 1170-1221) is credited with introducing the Rosary, as you can see several centuries after Benedict.

I know of no Benedictine Order where the Rosary is an integral part of their spirituality. But then I only know a couple of Benedictine orders and since the Benedictines have a unique freedom to be independent from each other, nobody can make any general statement about what additional spirituality may have been incorporated to the rules of Benedict. So if American Benedictine monasteries you may have visited pray the rosary...

Although by no means exhaustive and detailed in the information provided, here the Wiki link to Catholic spirituality:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_spirituality

The Legion of Mary was founded by Frank Duff on September 7, 1921 in Dublin. His idea was to help Catholic laypeople fulfill their baptismal promises and be able to live their dedication to the Church in an organised structure, supported by fraternity and prayer...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legion_of_Mary

Regarding my personal opinion about Ryan Haber's conservative Catholic stand: I got the idea after reading his posts on Professor Steven-Arroyo's blog. As I already mentioned in several posts, my family has been Christian since 52 AD (nineteen and a half centuries), and I was born in a village which has one of the oldest established Churches in India, only a few kilometers from where Apostle Thomas landed. So I have a fairly good idea of what conservative means. Your definition may be different based on your personal experiences. I have not had anything to do with Parish priests (I attend Mass that is all) but I have been interested in spirituality and have had the good fortune to know wonderful (highly intellectual and liberal) Jesuit priests and a couple of Benedictine monks (also extremely intellectual and radical). So our perspectives are different because our spiritual journeys have been different. I have always been a lay person.

I realize I have been somewhat brusque in my responses to you sometimes. I apologize. I think the fact that you converted to Islam after being in training to be a nun bothers me unconsciously although I respect Muslims. Having read the Quran myself I wonder why you had to convert to Islam, after all almost all of the religion in the Quran is taken from the Bible. If you had been born into a Muslim family or you had not been such a pious Catholic, it would not have bothered me. So there you have it. From now on I will try to be better.

soja, i've known 'extremely conservative cahtolics'.
i do not find ryan to fit in that category-

conservative is fine- to me it means prudence and wisdom-

possibly i bring emotional baggage to that term- but to me- extreme conservative means fundamental means inflexible and intolerant-

i really am refreshed by ryan, and sandy's reverence and kindness- i found none of the judgementalism or exclusionism that i associate with extremes-

as for the roasry, the benedictines have their own rasary and fashion of praying it-
i was in the legion of mary (the blue army- don't worry if you've never heard of it, few catholics have) and we vowed to say all 3 mysteries every day-
to my understanding the benedictines also pray in this way-

but i'm going from memory- i may be mistaken-
i don't think it's in wikipedia-

so i don't think heis an extreme conservaitve- simply an observant and practicing catholic-

but i should let him define himself-
( i really dislike that term- it may be a personal thing)

Ryan Haber:

Thanks for your response, but I didn't ask why God doesn't do parlor tricks or give me a bicycle. I asked why God NEVER cures amputees despite supposedly curing other types of maladies and despite his promise to do "anything" we ask for in his name and despite your assertion that "God can do anything that isn't logically self-contradictory".

You wrote: "When we are fully committed to doing God's will, He'll do whatever we want, because it will be what He wanted anyway!"

Does the fact that he has NEVER given back an amputated limb mean that all amputees have never been fully committed to his will or that his will has always been that all amputees have never wanted their limbs back? (By the way, Augustine was apparently of the opinion that lost limbs will be restored at the final judgment so that the people in hell can suffer just that much more.)

Regarding communion and cannibalism:

One need not murder anyone in order to eat them. The most famous cases of cannibalism in modern times involved starving people consuming the corpses of those who had died of natural causes and who, by virtue of their deaths, were no longer "persons". I seriously doubt that even the RC church would condemn cannibalism under those circumstances.

When you "receive" communion, do you really and truly believe that you are actually eating the living hair, skin, bones, toenails, innards and unmentionables of Jesus? I'm not trying to be gratuitously offensive here: I'm sincerely hoping that I've misunderstood something about transubstantiation.

Ryan Haber:

The Benedictine motto is "Ora et Labora," or "Work and Pray," and toward that end, the Rule of St. Benedict intends that each brother or sister in the community be engaged several hours daily in work that is conducive to contemplation - gardening, manual labor (like dishwashing, sweeping/scrubbing), etc. Work and prayer are not exclusive of each other, but can be harmonized and even, under the right circumstances, undertaken simultaneously. The rosary is a prayer method that is also suited to such combination. The Benedictine path is one of balance, each day combining times for work, prayer, recreation, meals, and study, inter al.

July 15, 2008 1:17 PM

==================================

Ryan

I'm sure you'd enjoy reading the autobiography of Dom Bede Griffiths OSB, The Golden String, even if he later evolved into a rather radical Catholic pioneer monk in India. He remained a very holy man, and nobody who knew him personally doubted his Christianity, and he has inspired many people around the world.

From your posts I understand that you are an extremely conservative Canon Law and Church doctrine conscious Catholic. Fr Bede believed in the Law of Love and He was convinced that is what Jesus came to teach and that is what Jesus lived. As Christians we know that Jesus condemned the law obsessed Pharisees of His day. Fr Bede was a Christian mystic and saint. He was all embracing and unconditionally loving. Sally (Quinn) would have felt absolutely thrilled to meet him, even if she would have found the harsh living conditions of Shantivanam impossible to bear. Unfortunately Fr Bedes are a rare phenomenon.

You mentioned the rosary. The rosary as you know is not part of Benedictine spirituality (it may be some Benedictine monasteries have adopted it, although the Rules of Benedict is entirely Jesus based). Benedict after all lived several centuries before the rosary was introduced into the Catholic church in the second half of the fourteenth century.

http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/fatima/rosary.html

I wanted to add the following information about the Benedictine Order from Wikipedia for non-Catholic readers:

"The monastery at Monte Cassino established in Italy by St. Benedict of Nursia circa 529 was the first of a dozen monasteries founded by him. Even so, there is no evidence to suggest that he intended to found an order. To the contrary, the Rule of St Benedict presupposes the autonomy of each community. Despite the absence of a Benedictine order, since most monasteries founded during the Middle Ages adopted the Rule of St Benedict, it became the standard for Western Monasticism.

The Benedictine monasteries went on to make considerable contributions not only to the monastic and the spiritual life of the West, but also to economics, education, and government, so that the years from 550 to 1150 may be called the "Benedictine centuries".

Even today Benedictine monasticism is fundamentally different from other Western religious orders insofar as its individual communities are not part of a religious order with "Generalates" and "Superiors General". Rather, in modern times, the various autonomous houses have formed themselves loosely into congregations (for example, Cassinese, English, Solesmes, Subiaco, Camaldolese, Sylvestrines) that in turn are represented in the Benedictine Confederation that came into existence through Pope Leo XIII's Apostolic Brief "Summum semper" on July 12, 1883. This organization facilitates dialogue of Benedictine communities with each other and the relationship between Benedictine communities and other religious orders and the church at large.

The Rule of Saint Benedict is also used by a number of religious orders that began as reforms of the Benedictine tradition such as the Cistercians and Trappists although none of these groups are part of the Benedictine Confederation.

The largest number of Benedictines are Roman Catholics, but there are also Benedictines within the Anglican Communion and occasionally within other Christian denominations as well, for example, within the Lutheran Church."

ryan, karen, sandy, and others-
it's heartening to see your interchange of faith and the graciousness with which you all express yourselves-

thanks for bringing grace and gentility to this forum
peace

Sandy, I don't know if you'll see this, so if I get the chance, I will repost it elsewhere that you might appear.

You express yourself far better than you suppose. Thank you especially for your kind words.

Congratulations on your 29 years of marriage - that is amazing and beautiful. Also, congratulations on your husband's growth in faith. It strikes me as very likely that you were very involved, even without "doing" anything in particular to bring it about.

I agree with you wholeheartedly about the importance of being careful, ever so careful with others. It really upsets me when I find myself being testy or temperamental (for whatever reason) with anybody who (I coincidentally happen to know) isn't a solid Christian. What a scandal! Work has got me like that a lot lately. Not cool. Not cool. You're right about people walking off from their parish or even from the Church or Christianity altogether as a result of little slights. The enemy of our souls looks for every little opportunity, and magnifies such things in our heart and mind well beyond their objective significance. Anything to pry us away from Jesus.

Prayer, Sandy. We all need to pray more.

Ryan,

Again, I want to thank you for sharing your depth of knowledge and your charitable but firm approach to the Catholic faith.

I wasn't going to come here today - and I won't stay long, but reading your posts is spiritually uplifting as well as educational.

You are right regarding premature, unprepared reception of the Eucharist. I absolutely agree, and I really intended to state that such a thing should be / would be extremely rare. I would NEVER promote such a thing. In cases where it HAS occurred, if I wasn't directly involved I would try to reserve judgement, be charitable. But if I knew someone who did receive without being prepared (RCIA, etc) I WOULD talk to them about the profound Sacrament the Eucharist is and guide them into RCIA or something similar.

I came into the church as a young adult, 20 years old. I officially prepared for a year (I had been heading in this direction for several years) and it was an awesome, life-changing experience - in many ways, the very beginning of my life. Our priest was a great teacher: compassionate, humorous, intelligent; and in church matters he held conservative, orthodox views. I was baptised and confirmed on Easter Vigil, 1979, and to this day I have this incredible sensation and memory of the holy water being poured over my head, and then confirmed, annointed with oil by the bishop. Then we received our First Eucharist. I was overcome with joy and trembled at the thought of the gift I had received.

I still wonder at this great gift of the Holy Spirit that led me to the church when I had no knowledge of it other than Catholic families I knew and what I saw on TV.

I taught catechism for 8 - 9 years, mostly 2nd grade, so I was preparing them for First Holy Eucharist. I also taught 5th grade for a year. I never would have taught them that it was okay to partake of Communion if they weren't baptised and prpoerly disposed Catholics. And I found myself telling a couple of parents, at least, that I felt their child was not yet ready to receive, due to immaturity (and/or poor attendance). The kids repeated the year. I similarly counseled friends of my daughter who had been baptised in the Catholic church but nothing beyond that and had really no knowledge of the Eucharist and the True Presence. They came to Mass with us a couple of times and they of course wanted to know what they should do at Communion. Without saying "No, you can't," I just discussed it with them and they each decided to go up for a blessing. One of them later asked for one of my books about the faith and asked her parents if they could return to the church. Amazing.

So,I agree absolutely with what you said, also regarding marriage - we just celebrated our 29th (I could leap into the value of Pre-Cana workshops here, but I won't). I don't have your gift of expression, but I know that the Holy Eucharist is the Body and Blood of our Lord and is the source and summit of our faith; and, therefore the reception of this Great Sacrament is profound, serious, and requires due understanding, knowledge and preparation. My posts may have been fuzzy on this, but my belief and understanding is not. I just, in this case and most others where no ill-intent is present, want to be, as you said, charitable, humble - and possibly a conduit, should the Holy Spirit will it.

One never knows the small things that affect people, either harden or soften their hearts. You are so careful with your words you must know this innately. People are so vulnerable when seeking a relationship with Christ. I have friends who have left the church (or a Protestant church) for very small slights, usually unintended, by a priest, deacon or just another parishoner. I would never want to mislead anyone, nor would I want to slam the door on them. I can only pray that I can become that charitable, welcoming person. I can be hardcore and judgemental - you see that I'm working on that.

Again, I appreciate your knowledge and defense of our faith. You are 'right on' in every post I've read. I don't know what you do in real life, but you could write a book about your faith experience, your ongoing transformation, along with your knowledge of church doctrine and practice.

Ex-papist,

You're right, there are a lot of "rules" and "beliefs" and they can get to feeling very complicated. That's not surprising for a number of reasons.

I lived in with a family in Mexico for a summer, and trying to adjust to a somewhat different way of life was at first burdensome - having to remember new dinner times, a different set of manners and mores, etc. But gradually they sank in, and there were very few rules left to have to think about. Looking at Christianity from the outside, and Catholicism or Orthodoxy in particular (we are very closely related in faith, morals, and worship), things can look terribly complicated. But they really aren't. They're just terribly different that what goes on outside. Coming into the Church, likewise, requires quite a number of transitions and changes. Just like living in a foreign country. That's kind of an end result of "secularization" is that the Western world has moved away from its Christian roots, so that the Church and Western Culture are no longer doing things the same way.

Second reason why it isn't surprising that Catholicism is very complicated is because we intend it and embrace it because it reflects, models, and assists in living in reality. Real life is often a very complicated affair. I don't want an ethereal, pie-in-the-sky religion that can't help me deal with real life, but only avoid it with illusions. If our religion is to address a complicated reality, we should expect that it will itself be somewhat complicated.

But really in the end, like getting used to living in Mexico, what's truly surprising is how really simple it is, once you get the hang of it. I get up each morning and go to Mass, usually arriving about 5 minutes late because I putz and the sleep doesn't clear from my eyes for a while, and then I go to work. I put in a good day's work sometimes, work most of the time, and laze once in a while. My work gives me a flexible schedule and gaps of free time between bursts of activity - time to write or blog. I do my best to be diligent at work, patient in line, and so on. I spend time with my family and friends, I watch movies, read (philosophy, history, geography, fiction), work out and go running and hiking, and keep my eye open for pretty Catholic girls. I try to give generously to the poor, save a bit for vacation (I love travelling overseas - Iceland or Ireland is next), and stay out of debt. I am involved in a weekly men's prayer group. A few times a month I go downtown to help at a hospice. I help around the parish when my pastor or someone else there asks. I blow it and sin - my big mouth, bad temper, inordinate appetites, fears, or frustrations outdo me and I hurt someone, myself, or just plain stink at some virtue. So I head to confession, pray God forgive me, and start over again with His help. I don't smoke, so I try to interrupt my midday with a few minutes of prayer by myself. It gets me out of the cube and into some fresh air. Before I go to bed I say some prayers and try to check in with God about how the day went, what I'm grateful for, what I'll try to do better the next day. On nice evenings, I like to do this while I go for a walk. Recently, I discovered that the parish by my house has a chapel open 24 hours daily. It is nice to go there at night to pray alone, too, as our Lord did. I don't have to, and don't always, or even very often. But I like to.

That's it. Not so complicated, is it? At least, it doesn't seem that way to me. I'm not holding myself up as a model of a saint, not by a longshot. Just putting myself out there as an ordinary Catholic-Who-Means-It; there are a lot out there that would be better examples. But my point is that it isn't a bunch of rules, but a rather nice way of life. From the inside, it seems much less cramped than it might from out there.

My ma is an "ex-papist" too. She is a babyboomer. I think her generation was served very heroically, but perhaps not very well, by a generation of religious sisters (nuns) who were overworked and fed-up with a lot of things, and priests who had it kinda easy in a lot of ways, and so took it easy in others. But maybe she'll see, that despite 12 years of Catholic schooling, she hadn't been as educated in the faith of the Church as she thinks.

Ok, the test cases are done. I've gotta get back to work.

Daniel in the Lion's Den:

"A God-idiom as a metaphor of mankind is not all that different than believing in a stone idol, that is carved to look like a man. I do not believe in either."

I am not sure what you mean by "God-idiom."

"I have a sense of God, but it is not the God-idiom that seems to color all of your visualizaitons of the world and of human existence."

Why, thank you. It is my deepest hope, the think I most strive for, that one day my every thought and desire should be focused firstly on God, and that He should likewise shape and tint everything I say and do. I am not yet a saint, though.

You see, the central Christian belief isn't that there is a God - that's a given for most people. It's that God LOVES us. He loves us SO MUCH, that He wants to be with us. Not just in one time and place (Palestine at about AD 30, my wasn't that fun) but EVERYWHERE and FOR ALL TIME. And He isn't happy just to be with us, but He wants to be AMONG us, even IN us, even individually. Looked at from this perspective, of the immense and incomprehensible love of God, not only does the Incarnation of God in human flesh start to fit into place, but so does Transubstantiation, God taking on a form in which we can take Him in.

Ryan Haber,

Thank you as always for your thoughtful and intelligent post.
For the record, I do not necessarily defend the stand of the Orthodox chuch on these divise issues either.
For many years now, I have been attending a non denominational church precisely for the fact that organized denominational religion seems to divid us rather then unite us. My current church welcomes all believers' to the Lord's table and takes mmunion very seriously.
I personnally believe that our Lord is present in communion. How, physically or in spirit, is not for me an issue that we should divide over. Jesus said that when 2 or more are gathered in Hs name, He also will be there. Do I see Him physically there during praise and worship at church? No, but I do know that He is there. I am OK with a certain level of mystery and unknown. For now we see through a glass, darkly. When we are in Heaven, all will be revealed.

Re: essentials of the faith, our pastor has a great test by which to evaluate the issues at hand in order to keep us for getting lost in the peripherals and I will pass it on. Does it matter to the persecuted believer in an undergroung church in China? If not, maybe I should not divide from other christians over the issue either.

Best to you.
Karen M

Sandy and Karen,

I'm responding to points in your posts together because they seem to fit together.

Karen, you're right - it is not at all clear in most places who is supposed to come to Communion and who is supposed to refrain. I mentioned in an earlier post that we are still trying to get our act together on this one. As Ms. Quinn pointed out, it can be very confusing.

The impulse of anger I felt at first reading her peace has since defused and its reasons become clearer to me. I wasn't angry that she had made a good faith mistake, but because she seems, in her apology, to have had some idea that this wasn't what her hosts would have wanted, and to have "gone with the gusto," so to speak, and then to have bragged about it. That's how she came across to me and apparently to others, anyway.

That said, I cannot judge her for it. On a number of occasions, I have gone to Communion knowing full well that I wasn't disposed. Having come directly from one serious sin or another, straight up to the Altar of God as if nothing had happened. What a farce I made out it! At first out of ignorance. I went through 8 years of catechism classes and never heard that. I have mentioned before that we have a very grave catechetical crisis in the Church right now - it is much more serious, in my mind, than any clerical crisis could be, although the two are connected obviously. Then I went sometimes, out of pride, because I couldn't bear the thought of someone thinking of me, "What has he DONE?!" As if they were interested in me when going up to Communion. It's been a wearing down of my pride, but it was six or seven years ago, maybe a bit more, that I decided NEVER to go to Communion improperly disposed - and it is since then that it has been having its effect, as far as I can see.

Sandy, you're right. It's impossible to tell what conversion process is happening in someone's heart while he or she goes up to Communion. In a broader sense, it's pretty darn hard to tell what's going on in their heart at all. Humility and charity are both called for here.

On the other hand, the Church has a great deal of wisdom stored up over 2000 years. I KNOW people, and have seen people undergo the conversion process, drawn by the Eucharist. One woman, about to enter the Church, has told me that if she had received Communion back then (she hasn't yet), she would have been contented with joining in the nice ritual. All the classes about the Church's history, faith, moral life, worship - they've all contributed to a growing desire, not only for the Eucharist, but to get rid of anything that could interfere. She has found herself paring down on unnecessary possessions, giving to the poor more generously, and taking up some pretty intense service work and prayer. She said that she has become more serious about cutting back on sins, and her descriptions strike as authentic. All this, drawn by the Eucharist.

To receive the Eucharist prematurely is very much like entering the marriage bed prematurely. Far from being a step toward deeper communion, as popular wisdom has it, either one is actually a cauterizing or inhibition of deeper communion. I think that's why 75% of couples who live together before marriage divorce within 10 years, whereas only 25% of couples who don't cohabitate before marriage divorce within 10 years.

Good things are always worth waiting for. And if the interior movement of desire is authentically from God, and not some passing whim, then it won't go away, but rather it will intensify.

Neal,

No. Prayer isn't for doing clever tricks, and it isn't magic. Faith isn't making yourself believe that you can move the Washington Monument six inches if you pray "hard enough." Faith isn't believing God will do what you want.

Faith is a commitment to do what GOD wants. Doing something in Jesus' Name means to do it on His behalf, with His authority, as in "Stop, in the name of the law!"

When we are fully committed to doing God's will, He'll do whatever we want, because it will be what He wanted anyway!

"Well, what's the good of that?!" you might ask. God isn't a parlor magician or a prostitute, that you pay for trick, and he does what you want because you said your prayers. God is GOD - not you or me. "The earth is the LORD's and the fullness thereof, the world and those who dwell therein," (Ps 24:1). He is the Master of Heaven and Earth, not some pushover pops who does what we say because we want Him too. "But Daddy! I WANT a bicycle! You don't love ME!" doesn't work with God.

The fact that some Pentecostal dies from drinking strychnine hardly proves that God doesn't exist, or doesn't answer prayers.

Prayers aren't primarily to get us what we want, whatever it may be, but to get us into the right relationship with God - that of child to Father. And it is predicated on a real sense of one's own real reliance on Someone entirely beyond oneself, and of trust that the same Someone knows better what's good for us.

Karen,

Thank you for your storied about growing up. You actually touch on a special case - although I am very sorry for your experience.

The Orthodox Churches tend to view Catholics as schismatics and/or heretics, but we do not reciprocate the view. We recognize their baptism, holy orders, and the other sacraments - we recognize their hierarchy as properly constituted, and so forth. They have never departed from the faith and morals of the Church, but only from the hierarchical structure, over an issue that is largely political and fading - the exact amount of authority of the See of Peter and of Ecumenical Councils and of the Bishops individually, with respect to each other. The Catholic Church doesn't see that issue as one that determines or causes disunity, but is simply the basis for continued dialog.

We ask members of the Orthodox Churches to maintain unity with their own Church, to respect the discipline of their hierarchical leadership, and so to refrain from communicating in Catholic parishes (which, as recent news makes clear, the leadership of the Orthodox Churches seriously disapproves of).

For our part, though, particularly in grave circumstances when serious physical or moral obstacles prevent members of the Orthodox Churches from going to their own parishes, provided they are otherwise properly disposed (believe in the Real Presence and not in a state of mortal sin) they are welcome to join us in the Eucharist.

Your situation in Beirut, in France, and also in graduate school here in the States certainly seem to qualify as times when you could not reasonably get to your own Church for the Divine Liturgy.

For our part, the Catholic Church asks us (Catholics) not to attend Orthodox services when we can attend our own, and not to receive Communion there in respect to the wishes of your leadership. If we cannot get to a Catholic parish for Sunday Mass, we can however fulfill our obligation by going to Divine Liturgy at an Orthodox parish. If we truly cannot get to either Catholic or Orthodox parish for the sacred liturgy, then we are dispensed from our Sunday obligation that week.

My aunt is Greek Orthodox, and we have a number of times gone to each other's parishes for Mass (without receiving each other's Communion, because there was no need). It is a shame that our Churches aren't fully united yet, Karen. Let's pray for that day when we are all One in Christ Jesus, so that this silliness can be behind us.

Terra Gazelle,

My apologies for misunderstanding your intentions. Someone else, Arminius, I think, pointed out to me your more likely motivations. Of course the analogy between your Simple Feast and the Eucharist only goes so far, because all analogies break down sooner or later.

The Simple Feast seems to me, for instance, to be an expression of a unity understood to be factual. That is, the people gathered express a unity that IS, whether they had gathered or not. In that sense, it is involuntary - not a matter of will and decision, but of fact. We are all one, like it or not. We just are. And the Simple Feast represents that. Do I understand that right? That also explains why all would be welcome to it - because in a sense, we are all there already.

The Eucharist, on the other hand, expresses a unity that is moral, or voluntary. That is, the people gather there as a decision to perfect a union that they have alread chosen through their whole way of life, and which otherwise would not be there. You and I have an important union in sharing humanity; but unless you and I have both opted for Christ, we haven't got that unity, not at all, in any way. And so for someone to come to His Table without already having consented to His Life makes a farce - a game of playacting - out of the whole thing. That's why non-Catholics, and Catholics unrepented of serious sin, cannot go up to the altar. It has nothing to do with "not being worthy." Nobody is worthy. It has to do with integrity, with not pretending something (a moral union) exists where it doesn't.

In any event, I don't think you wrote anything wrong - I misunderstood your intention. Again, Terra, my apologies.

There seems to be a sentiment from many of the catholics on this thread that it should be a well known fact to non catholics that they should not partake in communion and that priests are clear about it. I'd like to give you my perspective into this to show that the prohibition is anything but clear and from my experience, mainly enforced in conservative catholic parishes in the US.

I grew up in Lebanon during the civil war and was raised in the Orthodox church. We lived in a very dangerous part of Beirut and our parish was on the green line so we often could not make it there for mass. While I was in High school, for a 2 year period, I attended mass at a small catholic chapel right down the street from my house because it was the closest and safest to get to. I sang in the choir and took communion every sunday. The priest and the choir member all knew that I was not catholic but never once said to me that I should not be taking communion. They were welcoming and happy to have me join them every week. I felt loved and accepted and was glad that I was actually able to make it to church.

Fast forward to post college when I lived in France for 3 months and have since visited multiple times to see relatives. My experience there in every church I visited was mainly empty pews, huge beautiful churches with a few older people around the altar during mass. Not once did I hear a priest say to the congregants to only come up to communion if they were catholic. Maybe they assumed that this being France, where hardly anybody goes to church, the congregants must all be catholic? Who knows...

Later on, I was in graduate school in the US. No Orthodox churches within at least 100 miles so I went to catholic mass with my roommate. Very diverse congregants from all over the world. Not once did I hear the priest say that communion was reserved to catholics and my roommate, a cradle catholic, never brought it up.

So all those years I assumed that communion in Catholic churches, was open to all baptized christians. I only found out otherwise a few years ago when attending a friend's wedding in a very conservative catholic parish and I was totally taken aback by the exclusion. Since then, I have heard the exclusion reiterated a few times and will no longer consider going to mass.

Conclusion: the assertion that it is obvious that only Catholics are invited to the Eucharist is a universally known and enforced standard is absolutely not true.

Other Conclusion: from my experience in Lebanon, I have learned that when Christians are oppressed and hunted down as we were, they tend to forget about theological debates and differences and welcome each other as brothers and sisters in Christ. When the pews are empty, as in France, the main concern of the priests is to get people to chuch and not check their pedigree. But when the church is comfortable and prosperous as it is in the US, then we all have time for squabbles and divisions.

I think we would all do well to remember St Augustine's teaching: In the essentials unity, in non essentials liberty, but in all things charity.

The essential part of our faith is that we put our faith in Jesus as our savior. The rest? I doubt that God will hold it against any of us how exactly we understood and explained communion. Remember the thief on the cross in Luke: no baptism, communion, confession etc. All he did was acknowldge Jesus as Lord by saying "Remember me oh Lord in your Kingdom" and Jesus said to him: I tell you tonight you will be with me in Paradise".

To the Anonymous Poster, re: Cannibalism:

"According to Mark Jesus said: These signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover. (Mark 16:17-18)"

The first thing to note is that these words of our Lord's are predictions, not commands - and that is a huge difference. Many Christians have done any number of dangerous things because they believed it was God's will - and have come out unscathed. One recalls Mother Teresa entering a combat zone in Beirut in the early 1980s to rescue children stranded there in one of her orphanages.

To put the Lord to the test though, to say, "Hey, I'm a Christian, I can touches snakes - watch this!" is a very serious sin.

John 6 and 15, the entire chapters, make it very clear that Jesus very much wanted us to eat His flesh and drink His blood, so that He could remain in us, and us in Him.

As for cannibalism, what is wrong with cannibalism is not that one eats flesh that happened to have been on one's nextdoor neighbor a bit earlier. What is wrong with cannibalism is that it is opposed to everything in our human nature. We are created to love and serve each other, to build each other up - not to use each other for our own benefit - and cannibalism is exactly that in the fullest and basest sense - using another person for one's own benefit.

It IS our highest nature, our ultimate calling, and the most noble dignity to which we can aspire to be brought into perfect union with the Lord God Creator of Heaven and Earth. It is literally why He made us human beings, to share in His perfect life of love and joy. Spiritual beings are also capable of such, and being spiritual, they do so spiritually. We are hybrids, spiritual and material, and so it fits our nature to do so not in a purely spiritual way, but in a hybrid way.

Supposing this way is how God has created us for communion with Him, then it is not contrary to the moral law, but the very fulfillment of all goodness! In Holy Communion, we eat the Flesh and drink the Blood of Jesus, given freely for us - His Life for us; we in turn give ourselves over to Him - our lives for Him. In cannibalism, the murdered victim is destroyed and the consumer degraded to a state worse than most animals; in Holy Communion the Saving Victim is resurrected and the consumer exalted to a condition that the angels must be tempted to envy! Holy Communion is, though we eat His Flesh and Blood truly, the exact opposite of cannibalism.

We try to be little gods unto ourselves - trying to create a new reality, trying to take for ourselves unnatural powers - but we don't need to do so. God wants to GIVE us god-ness. He wants to give us Himself. But it must be on His terms. Again, I recommend reading John 15, and then John 6. Or better, read John 6, then 15, and then 6 again. Then read one of the Last Supper narratives from Matthew (26:17-30), Mark (14:13-26), or Luke (22:1-32 - my favorite). If you take the Bible seriously, as the Word of God, the exercise is a real eye-opener.

The Holy Eucharist is the seed and first fruit of the fulfillment of all the deepest desires of humanity.

Reading William Donohue's comments on feeling more than "a slightly nauseating sensation" and then interpreting her decision to receive communion as reeking of narcissism is a sad commentary on contemporary Catholicism. While he supports having a dialogue with Jews and Muslims, he seems to be obsessed with "the truth" believing that "the truth" like the existence of God is "out there" waiting to be discovered in the course of history rather than understanding "the truth" as a human construct arrived at through a vigorous methodology. Would that Donohue and Martin be a bit more academically humble and ask the truly Jesus question: "When did I see you naked and not cloth you, or hungry and not feed you or thirsty and not give you to drink.

At least folks now have a better idea of how complicated Catholic beliefs really are.

Transubstantiation is only one of many supernaturally based doctrines - all of which you're required to believe in if you expect to be a member in good standing. If you find this hard to believe, try the Virgin Birth, the Holy Trinity, the Bodily Assumption of Mary into Heaven, or Papal Infallibility. All are required beliefs for practicing Catholics - along with much additional dogma.

I'll bet Sally doesn't fully appreciate how necessary these many additional beliefs are to practicing Catholics....violating the 'rules' governing Holy Communion is only one of many ways to cross orthodox Catholicism.

On the other hand, I don't see how a literal belief in the Bible is an improvement - as a pretty good working definition of Protestant fundamentalism.

It seems to me religious beliefs just take alot of work, period. And then you never know if you're right or wrong....religion is not for the lazy, or for those that require real evidence!

Soja John Thaikattil, Sydney, Australia :

Question: What are some do's and don'ts for observing the religious rituals of others?

Answer: Ask the people concerned in what religious ritual a non-adherent of that faith community is allowed to participate and in what they are not.

July 10, 2008 10:18 PM

Soja John Thaikattil, Sydney, Australia :

One humble suggestion to avoid such confusion in the future:

1. The priest could announce just before the giving of Holy Communion starts that non-Catholics are to remain seated and not receive Holy Communion; that they may come forward at the end of the distribution of the Holy Communion for a blessing and cross their hands as a sign that want only a blessing.

2. Have unconsecrated hosts and wine which could be distributed in a separate line and/or in a separate corner of the Church for non-Catholics as sign of partaking of a meal without violating the sacredness of the Host in a Catholic sense.

July 12, 2008 1:56 AM

Inviting anyone to Communion outside of Church doctrine is at the discretion of the priest. He alone is answerable to God. Similarly if a person who does not share the Catholic belief receives Communion, it is between that person and God. Taking Communion without sharing the belief remains a communal gesture and not a religious one.

Soja John Thaikattil, Sydney, Australia :

Victoria, as an ex-Catholic, who attended Catholic schools and was in training to be a nun in a Franciscan convent for many years, you know Catholic dogmas much better than I, a lay person, do.

I see no sense in going into a discussion with you, a Catholic convert to Islam. I am a Catholic by choice and conviction. That should be sufficient answer for your question. A discussion why I could never be a Muslim is equally meaningless.

July 13, 2008 1:12 AM

E Favorite,

I think we tend to agree on this. I wouldn't want people joining in Communion frivolously, or because everyone else does, or for the novelty; but, if their sincere, well-intentioned understanding of the Eucharist compels them to partake, then surely that's between them and God. He's big enough to sort that out. If you remember my original posting, that was the intention of my message. Who could possibly know what conversion (or "reversion") might have taken place in an individual to lead them up that aisle? I could imagine my dear, late mother doing that...she was a travel agent a number of years ago and had, because of her job, visited several Catholic shrines - Lourdes, Fatima (twice!), Guadalupe, Medjugorje. She gave me a book on Our Lady of Fatima. She was a fallen-away Baptist, so she wasn't even a "near Catholic", yet I suspect had she lived longer she might have taken me up on one of my meek invitations to come to Mass(I never wanted to appear to be proselytizing even to my parents). She was seeking towards the end of her life...who knows where that may have led?

(I have a difficult time staying on task, don't I?)

In most Catholic churches the missals fairly gently state the requirements for receiving the Eucharist (a long version of this is found at http://www.catholic.com/library/Who_Can_Receive_Communion.asp). But these missals aren't always on hand or evident at funerals or weddings where there are often special programs - nor would a visitor necessarily even know to seek that information. So in the absence of such direction, truly, I cannot dispute you, we should only have ourselves to blame. I have a vague recollection of the priest at our wedding stating at the beginning of Communion, "If you are Catholic you may wish to join us in Communion" or something more elegant of that nature, so apparently announcements are sometimes made.

Ryan Haber

A God-idiom as a metaphor of mankind is not all that different than believing in a stone idol, that is carved to look like a man. I do not believe in either.

I have a sense of God, but it is not the God-idiom that seems to color all of your visualizaitons of the world and of human existence.

That is my way of saying that I do not understand religious belief such as yours. And when you speak in complex terms about this belief in this kind of God, supported by Catholic theology, which I have never studied, I am mostly unable to track what is your meaning.

Ryan Haber - I remember the “Tantum ergo” well, from my confirmation classes, which I refer to as “learning how to sing hymns in Latin.” It was all about impressing the Bishop. I loved both singing and foreign languages, so I have no complaints. I do wish the nuns had told us what the words meant, though. Perhaps they didn’t know themselves.

As soon as I saw your Latin verses, I broke into song. It’s been a long time, but it all came back.

Arminius – true, the Episcopalians say “All are welcome” but my recollection is that the following words are always “to the Lord’s table” and said right before communion. If you don’t believe in the Lord, then it detracts from the welcome. Don’t get me wrong – I understand that a church’s mission is to serve its flock, not to be a haven for atheists. What the National Cathedral does, though, is different – it welcomes everyone at the very start of a gathering. I say “gathering” because I haven’t attended an actual religious service there in a while. The Cathedral does a lot in the community, though, and I’m always impressed that they are very inclusive.

Sandy, you ask, "Absolved of their responsibility as pertains to their proper dispositon to receive the Eucharist? Or that they should have intervened and prevented Sally Quinn (and presumably others) from receiving? Or something else entirely?"

“Absolved” was probably not the best choice of words. I know from my catholic heritage that is has special meaning.

And my personal opinion is that Sally should have been left alone, as she was, to make her own decision about communion. What bugged me about some of the responses here is that Sally was charged with gross disrespect, as if she, a non-Catholic visitor there to mourn a friend, were the only one in the church with a responsibility to keep communion out of her hands. It seems to me that if a non-catholic taking communion were such an egregious act, that there should be an established system to prevent it that was not totally dependent on non-Catholics. In the obvious absence of such rules, the onus is not the visitor, but on church members. This is basic courtesy and common sense unrelated to religion and it distresses me that so many Catholics here don’t get it.

As I’ve said elsewhere here, I have many fond memories of my Catholic childhood and still have many good Catholic friends. None of them are like some of the Catholics here (not you!) who are so eager to castigate a visitor while giving a pass to their fellow Catholics.

Ryan,
I was not trying to tell you what to believe...that was far from my mind. I appologize for any misunderstanding.

I was trying to understand the meaning of Communion (I went to the dictionary to clarify my mind) so that I could better understand the common meaning (one in feeling and thought). I am not Catholic, all I can do is translate it to my understanding,to try to find a common understanding. Is the partaking of the wafer and wine not a way to join with Christ? To be one with Christ?

I don't know, all I can do is go by my own religious feelings. When we celebrate the Simple Feast it is a sacred rite... it is different then your's...when we partake of the bread and wine we are partaking of our Gods. We are joining with each other, the elements and our Gods to be One with all.

I was only trying to find a common understanding even if a incomplete one.

I think Ms Quinn felt that she wanted to honor the memory of her friend, and she chose to do that with what he honored, she could be in "Communion" with him.

Terra

Speaking of the early Church Fathers, St. Justin the Martyr, writing in "First Apology" (A.D. 148-155)gives a description of Christian worship which is recognizable as Mass of today and notes:

"We call this food Eucharist; and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and has been washed in the washing...For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these...as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by Him, and by the change of which our flesh and blood has been nourished, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus."

Roy,

I'm sorry that you have ever been in the "uncomfortable position of being in a Catholic church" but I suppose I can say "attaboy!" for showing up for your friends' or relatives' important days. My own dear grandparents and a much loved friend of mine chose not to come to my wedding because they just couldn't bring themselves to set foot in a Catholic church. I was disappointed but nobody was ugly about it so everything was fine. I much prefer that they felt comfortable enough in our relationship to exclude themselves rather than for me to later discover that they felt they had to force themselves to endure something so unpleasant on my behalf.

It's not a matter of wanting to exclude you - it's there for the offering, and if you understand what we believe about what is being offered, then you know that it is serious and profound and not mere symbol and ritual to us. And if you understand, accept, and believe what we believe, then you would want to receive the Sacrament and you could. I know of a man, a former minister in the Assemblies of God, who was searching and seeking and found himself going to Mass, asking questions after Mass, then eventually going to RCIA (what used to be called "Inquiry" when I was seeking), still holding doubts but earnestly studying. And in the middle of Mass - a small, private Mass being held at the bedside of an ill friend, he suddenly lost his doubts and embraced all he had heard about the Eucharist and and asked that he receive. The priest, who knew him well at this point, gave him communion. It didn't matter that he wasn't "officially" Catholic - what he believes is what matters. The priest, by the way, would probably describe himself as "hardcore" and "by the book" - but he discerned what is important. Belief. (The man later was received "officially" into the Catholic church and last I heard he was entering the seminary to become a priest.) There are plenty of non-believing "offical" Catholics who go up to receive...but only they know who they are and I hope they have the courage to stop.

It seems simple enough - if you don't believe, then you shouldn't feel excluded from something you don't believe in. (I don't feel excluded from the Communist Party, PETA, The Daughters of the Confederacy, NASCAR...an attempt at levity, sorry.) If you do believe, come on along, we'll work it out. If you're not sure what you believe, ask, seek, knock (and see Ryan Haber's posts about what we do believe)...and should you later come to believe, hey, Mass is offered several times a day every day. There's a comfortable seat right next to me.

If I find myself in the uncomfortable position of being in a Catholic Church for a wedding, baptism, first communion, whatever, I just take a little recess outside as the Priest and the congregation hijack Christ's table for their personal exclusive use. I wouldn't think of disrespecting their wishes that I be excluded.

anonymous:

You raise some argumentative questions.

The apostles didn't understand the bread of life discourse in John 6:22-65 at the time either but when many of his disciples left Him, making your point about feeling offended, Jesus didn't back down from it and the apostles stayed with Him ("this is a hard saying"). Regarding the broken bread as the real presence of Christ's glorified body was prevalent in the earliest Church and is documented in the writings of the Church Fathers, such as Ignatius of Antioch, who knew John, in 110 A.D. - and many others.

In Mark 16:15-18, after the Resurrection, Jesus is sending the Apostles out to preach his gospel "to every creature", saying there will be some miraculous signs associated with some of their work - not that they should go out and wrestle snakes.

Receiving Holy Communion is incorporation into the Mystical Body of Christ, the Church.

anonymous:

You raise some argumentative questions.

The apostles didn't understand the bread of life discourse in John 6:22-65 at the time either but when many of his disciples left Him, making your point about feeling offended, Jesus didn't back down from it and the apostles stayed with Him ("this is a hard saying"). Regarding the broken bread as the real presence of Christ's glorified body was prevalent in the earliest Church and is documented in the writings of the Church Fathers, such as Ignatius of Antioch, who knew John, in 110 A.D. - and many others.

In Mark 16:15-18, after the Resurrection, Jesus is sending the Apostles out to preach his gospel "to every creature", saying there will be some miraculous signs associated with some of their work - not that they should go out and wrestle snakes.

Receiving Holy Communion is incorporation into the Mystical Body of Christ, the Church.

Thank you, E Favorite, for this civil and kind exchange.

Please, if you would expand and clarify just a bit here, or perhaps you did in a prior post and I missed it - please forgive me if that is the case.

"...Sally Quinn – she’s taken a real beating for taking communion in a Catholic church, while the many Catholics present on that occasion have been absolved of responsibility"

Absolved of their responsibility as pertains to their proper dispositon to receive the Eucharist? Or that they should have intervened and prevented Sally Quinn (and presumably others) from receiving? Or something else entirely? (Forgive me, sometimes I am a Bear of Very Little Brain)

Those of us who believe in the Eucharist naturally carry the responsibility to receive worthily, a matter that Ryan has expressed more eloquently than I can. If we do receive knowingly in a state of grave sin, we aren't absolved - our sin is compounded. I can only know my own state; I don't assume anything about my fellow communicants, except that we are all sinners and in need of God's grace.

I'm trying to mentally put myself there, at a high-profile funeral of a well-known Catholic and someone I assume not to be Catholic - but do I KNOW that to be the case - goes up to receive communion...do I make some effort to speak out, create a scene, thereby distracting from the Sacrament, and possibly offending the family of the deceased? Or continue to pray for all in attendance?

I was drawn to the Catholic church in my childhood, but it was my experience in attending Mass at a church staffed by the Paulist Fathers that cemented my desire to further explore and ultimately be baptised and confirmed a Catholic. Their warm, all-welcoming approach was evident not just in the priests, but in that wonderful parish. There they do make an effort to welcome and celebrate all - maybe because it is adjacent to a very, very large and diverse university, but I think it is more at the core of the Paulists' approach in general. That and service to all, love of all. I was so fortunate to have my first, formative years as a Catholic with them. Perhaps you had a broader meaning to "All people are welcome" but I assure you, in my experience, all are welcome. I hope that is what we all aspire to...regardless of our faith traditions or the absence thereof.

*extending my hand across the wide internet*
Peace be with you

Ryan Haber wrote:

"That God can do anything that is not logically self-contradictory..."

"It is enough, particularly, because everything else He [Jesus] told us has so patently turned out, is turning out, to be true in our experience."

Jesus said:

"Amen, I say to you, if you have faith and do not waver, not only will you do what has been done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, 'Be lifted up and thrown into the sea' it will be done. Whatever you ask for in prayer with faith, you will receive." Matthew 21:21

"For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you." Matthew 17:20

"Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." Mark 11:12

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it." John 14:12-14

Given these unequivocal statements by Jesus and your assertions, why has he NEVER healed an amputee despite supposedly healing other people? Apparently healing people is not something that is logically self-contradictory for God, so have all prayerful amputees been faithless? If 1 million faithful Christians prayed to move the Washington Monument 6 inches in any direction will it be moved? If not, was Jesus just stretching the truth a little? Was he misquoted?

(By the way, I can and do make objects so big I can't lift them all the time--every time I mix some concrete--and yet this is something we are told God can't do.)

Apparently you haven't learned anything.

Apologize so we can all move on.

E Favorite,

“We welcome all people.”
Many Episcopal churches do just that, as I am sure you know.

The problem of communication between believers and non-believers lies on both sides. You and I, if I may be so bold, represent the best of this, because we agree to disagree without harsh words or accusations. But many non-believers hold me as demented, or simply stupid. Even Mr Mark, for all his intelligence and politeness, can slip into that mode. Of course, on the other side, the religious critics spewing rejection, or, worse, hatred, are legion....

It's gonna be a long, difficult road.

Arminius

Sandy- Thanks so much for your thoughtful response.

I agree with Arminius and Ryan – You rock.

The rest of what I have to say is inspired by your comments, but is not directed to you.

Most people do bring their personal baggage here and though it sometimes can get nasty, it can also enrich the discussion. It makes us “real people” and not just floating thoughts on the internet.

Of course people have disagreements and different points of view about religion. As a recent atheist, I notice that atheists can be a special object of derision. Believers may deride certain other religions privately, but our culture generally expects us to be inclusive of “people of all faiths” in public. This inclusiveness has not yet been extended to people of no faith. Belief in God, no matter how he is worshipped, seems to be the basis for respect in our culture. Those who worship no God are still suspect in our culture.

Thus, open-minded believers who wouldn’t think giving a pre-emptive no-proselytizing warning to people of other faiths, will pre-emptively warn off atheists. People who know they don’t live up to the moral code of their own religion, will blithely inform atheists that they have no morals at all, and religious people will say that atheists believe in nothing just because we don’t believe in gods.

And getting back to Sally Quinn – she’s taken a real beating for taking communion in a Catholic church, while the many Catholics present on that occasion have been absolved of responsibility.

I’d like to see more people start to naturally say what I’ve heard at the National Cathedral: “We welcome people of all faiths and people of no faith.”

Someday, maybe it will be cool to simply say, “We welcome all people.”

Sandy,

You are truly a good person, and so is your husband. And so is Ryan. I am not Roman Catholic, so we have many differences - but many similarities.

Gandhi once said, to a Christian street preacher in India, who asked him why he could not convert anyone, "If you lived your religion, instead of just preaching it, then everyone would want to be a Christian."

Arminius

Ryan Haber and Arminius:

Thank you for your kindness, it is much appreciated. And Ryan, I had earlier composed a comment that said, in effect, "Ryan Haber, you rock!" but I was interrupted and lost the post. I appreciate the depth of your knowledge, your personal witness and experience of the Catholic faith, and the thoughtful manner in which you express yourself.

Much of your post (of July 15, 2008 2:26 PM) where you describe the person you were before ("...a big ass") compared to the person you are now that you have committed yourself to living your faith - that same transformation is much the same as that experienced by my husband (oh, which is not to say that I have ever been much less of an ass myself). He's always been a good husband and father, but in the last several years since he matured as a Catholic and committed himself to daily prayer there has been such a transformation in the man - a real, substantive change in the way he approaches everything and everyone. This change has been such a blessing to us and to others...he is quicker to pitch in and help people in need - I no longer am the one to try to make a case for serving others beyond just our family - it comes now as part of his nature. He is more loving, caring, tolerant, and patient. I've heard him explaining our faith, carefully, thoughtfully and patiently, much as you express yourself. As I mentioned in an earlier post, we live in a region that is only about 4% Catholic and where much anti-Catholic sentiment still exists - before, he wouldn't have "wasted" his time trying to explain or discuss - nor would he have been able to in any depth. Now he does and doesn't offend, just expresses or informs when the occasion merits. He didn't do this himself - this is only through the Holy Spirit that this has come about and remained. He spends an hour each week in Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, and even though this is after work, at midnight, he says he can barely tear himself away. I've gone with him a few times and I understand. Adoration accelerated this growth he has experienced. More and more he is becoming a spirit led, gentle man.

And in another aspect of substance, reality, appearance: If only everyone who called themselves Christian would try, just try a little bit, to BE, in substance and appearance, really Christian...would all of our problems go away...no, but think what could be done with a greater abundance of love, tolerance, and charity. I've seen it on a small scale in my life and it has been awesome.

I can't help but think that if a political personality was involved in this question the judgement from the press would be harsh and unforgiving. It would be a politician's job to know the culture that he/she was entering into. He/She would be expected to do the homework and know what was acceptable and what was not.

In entering the place of worship, Ms. Quinn -- a reporter specializing in religion -- did not do her homework. She participated at her own invitation, and not at the invitation of the priest. In all the instances that she quotes where non-Catholics participated in the communion, they were invited by church official. Having received no invitation, her case is different from those she cited.

Having said that, it is heart wrenching to loose a close friend so unexpectedly. And in our moments of greif, we mere mortals often do not do our homework, we are more likely to be led by our emotions. When we wake up to the consequences of our actions, a sincere apology is always appreciated. Attempts at justification just seem to deepen the offence.

During the Eucharist and by way of transubstantiation the bread is turned into the body of Jesus and likewise the wine is turned into his blood. And the whole essence of the ritual is the eating Jesus’ flesh and drinking his blood. Maybe I am missing something here but since when is it okay to eat someone’s flesh? Isn’t considered cannibalism when you do that or is okay when that person being eaten is Jesus, who according to the Christians is god. Are you saying eating god is a good thing and in fact a necessary affair. Some people say it is symbolic; what if you have a chance to be some place with the real thing. What happens then? Will you get down to the business of eating him after the introduction?

I have this mental image of Christians or specifically Catholics having been transported to the time of Jesus. And I imagine those guys, two billion plus of them, each with a fork and a knife at hand chasing Jesus around Galilee trying to eat him. And I imagine Jesus running for his life saying: be reasonable people, why in the world would you want to eat me? Where did you get such a silly idea anyway? Oh, wait a minute they have to wait for him to die to have such a feast. It is not really nice to eat a person who is alive. So the scene changes and two billion plus of them would be waiting at the foot of the cross waiting for Jesus to die.

Why is it necessary to eat Jesus anyway? And what good does come from such a cannibalistic ritual symbolic or real? I don’t get it. Some would point to what Jesus had said in the gospel of John. He might have said that and again he may not have. Christians and specifically Catholics then should obey what Jesus said in Mark too.

According to Mark Jesus said: These signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover. (Mark 16:17-18)

If you believe what Jesus said in John you should also believe what he said in Mark too; why not handle snakes and drink deadly poison? Jesus says believers won’t be hurt by them. So obviously, if you’re hurt by them, you’re not a true believer. Sounds like a good test to me. The Christians should be willing to drink a deadly mixture of cyanide to see if they are protected as Jesus supposedly says? This is something that can be tested; If it’s true then Jesus said it if not then he didn’t. I have a hunch that no one would be fool enough to take such a test. As it is there are countless people in the Appalachian Mountains who lost their lives believing such ridiculous thing. Why, because Jesus said it and it is in the bible.

for the record ryan- i'm not proposing my concept- and aquinas did part ways with aristotle as far as material and spiritual (miraculous) explanations for reality and causation-

but that is a headache i left a while ago- and dont want to revisit-

ryan!
you translated that yourself?

impressive!!!!

Hmmm, and after 482 previous commentaries, the Catholic, Lutheran and Episcopalian Eucharist is still a low calorie, sometimes stale wafer and/or a sip of inexpensive, sometimes sour wine.

One of the most beautiful hymns in the Catholic repertoire is the Pange Linga ("Sing, My Tongue") written by St. Thomas Aquinas. The last two verses are familiar to most Catholics in the original and in numerous translations and paraphrases:

Tantum ergo Sacramentum
Veneremur cernui:
Et antiquum documentum
Novo cedat ritui:
Praestet fides supplementum
Sensuum defectui.

Genitori, Genitoque
Laus et jubilatio,
Salus, honor, virtus quoque
Sit et benedictio:
Procedenti ab utroque
Compar sit laudatio.
Amen.

"So great, therefore, a Sacrament
Let us venerate bowed.
And let the Old Covenant
to the New Rite yield.
Let faith stand forth as supplement
To the failure of the senses.

To the Begetter and the Begotten,
Praise and jubilation,
Salvation, honor, and strength
Be, and blessing too:
To to the One proceeding from them both
And let equal praises be.
Amen." (translation my own)

When a Catholic priest holds up the Eucharist and says "the Body of Christ" and you receive it (with or without saying Amen), by your actions you are saying indeed I believe this is truly the Body of Christ. If you don't believe it and you take it, then you are acting contrary to your own beliefs. (Unlike a mouse who does not act contrary to his belief when he nibbles on a consecrated host). Anyhow, this is not a good thing. We all need to strive for greater purity in our actions. I urge you Ms. Quinn to just act according to your beliefs at this time. If you do not believe something, do not confuse yourself or others by acting in a contrary manner.
The Eucharist is so sacred to Catholics because it is such an awesome gift. The idea that God could humble himself so much (even beyond becoming a human person) as to offer His Whole Self in what by all appearances is just bread and wine is such an extraordinary concept that to believe the priest can effect such a change takes plenty of faith and plenty of grace. (In fact, the one and only time recorded in Scripture that Jesus lost disciples was when he proclaimed this truth in John 6--some disciples found this teaching too hard and left. John 6:66). As Catholics, most of us respond to this immense gift like Peter and the apostles who, upon hearing Jesus say that we must eat his flesh and drink his blood, and then were asked by Christ if they too wanted to leave, answered: "Master, to whom shall we go, you have the words of eternal life". In other words, they did not understand how this could be but believed anyway. Faith first.
If you are accustomed to praying, Ms. Quinn, take your actions to prayer and God will guide you. He loves sincerity, humility, and prayer from the heart.

My condolences on the loss of your dear friend.

ps to Neal: Peter and the apostles walked with Christ for three years, received Christ at the Last Supper and then denied and abandoned Him after He was arrested. How could someone so close to Jesus do that? There is a lesson in this. Our journey requires daily effort. Why else would St Paul pray that he finish the race? Because he knew he had free will to say no to love at any given moment. God never removes our free will even if we receive him daily. Perhaps you are not seeing transformation in Catholics because there are too many who are receiving unworthily, which, as Scripture tells us, brings condemnation upon ourselves. All Catholics are on notice, receive with care.

ryan, aristotelian interpretations aside- you have centered on the heart of the matter-
the physical manisfestations (which have been argued ad infinitum already)have no real bearing upon the belief and attitude you are cultivating in your approach to the eucharist.

having said that- i seem to remember some liguorian story about a church in spain which actually has an undecomposed bit of flesh and blood allegedly from a physically transformed eucharist-

but centruies old miracles notwithstanding- i am refreshed by your respect and reverence and your practice

Daniel in the Lion's Den,

Right you are, in the first point; in the second, couldn't be wronger. Please allow me to explain, friend.

"But anyone can say anything is other than what it appears to be. Such declarations cannot be proved or disproved..."

Of course anyone can saying anything is whatever. And of course such claims can't be proved or disproved. In fact, for our general, day-to-day natural lives, such claims are just silly. What do I care if someone claims that my laptop isn't REALLY a laptop, but only looks like one, if it in fact acts like one and if in fact I can use it as one. I can still write my blog, do my taxes, complete work assignments, and email my friends. Why should it matter if someone says to me that it is REALLY a spoon?

Many things we humans believe are susceptible to reasonable proof, or at least to evidence - such as weather predictions, laws of aerodynamics, etc.

Some things are less provable or evident, but still somewhat. I cannot PROVE that my mother loves me, although I do have plenty of evidence and lots of good reason. It's not the sort of thing susceptible to scientific experimentation, but it's no less real therefore.

Now, as for the case of the Eucharist, we in the Catholic Church exactly agree with you about its nonprovability and nondisprovability. It is entirely unprovable. We're fine with that, because we do not believe it as a matter of the senses, but as a matter of faith. We are not shocked that others don't believe it; not like we would all of us be shocked to find someone who thought high doses of electricity was beneficial to the health. In fact, we rather expect most people not to agree with us.

To all appearances, the Eucharist is just bread and wine.

But our Blessed Lord and Savior Jesus Christ told us otherwise, and for us that is enough. It is enough, particularly, because everything else He told us has so patently turned out, is turning out, to be true in our experience. If he had said that "purple" and "not-purple" are the same, then I would say he is an illogical nonsense-speaker. If he had said, "I will be hanged by a neck with a rope," when he turned out to be crucified, I should think he wasn't even a very prophetic prophet. But because things are often not what they appear, and because he has power over all creation, and He has in a sense only asked me to believe that the Eucharist, too, is not what it appears to be, I can believe Him.

As to whether I DO in fact believe Him (I do), that cannot be my own doing, but is a supernatural gift.

"...and believing in them or not believing in them has no particular purpose or relevance for or against anything."

Well, in the case of someone telling me that my laptop is really a spoon, of course their chatter makes no difference. A laptop is merely a laptop, and a spoon a spoon, and both are determined by their function. If the spoon functions as a laptop, then it is no spoon, whatever it is called, but a laptop.

In a sense, you're right here, too, because whether someone believes the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Jesus is completely irrelevant to whether it is. But whether it is the Body and Blood of Jesus, though unverifiable to the senses, makes all the difference in the world. It is the difference between being brought into communion with the Eternal and Transcendent, the Source of life and knowledge and joy and peace, the first Movement of the universe and the final Rest of all things, the joy of man's desiring (on the one hand) and (on the other hand) merely eating a piece of bread. On the one hand, I would expect regular, commited reception of the Eucharist to bring me a more transcendent viewpoint, a deeper way of living, greater knowledge of the meaning and value of things, more joy, more profound peace, more responsive intuition and more relaxed demeaner, and the joy that surpasses all understanding. The transformation would not happen instantaneously - what human transformation does? But it should slowly but surely happen. On the other hand, I would expect eating a piece of bread once a week to, well, disqualify me for the Atkins Diet, and not much else.

It is a great, maybe the greatest scandal of the Catholic Church, that we are so few of us made manifestly better people by our reception of the Holy Eucharist.

That is, in part, because so many receive it improperly disposed - approaching our Blessed and Sinless Lord while soaked in sin is like taking a shower in a raincoat. Not terribly effective.

Moreover, so few of us - not only Catholics, but people in general - really feel the need to change. We haven't hit (and perhaps our lifestyles won't quickly lead us to hit) "rock-bottom" as AA members say, where a radical change is life is obviously needed. Most of us think that if any tinkering is needed in our character or personality, just a bit will do. We think we're basically OK - or at least we tell ourselves and others that we are. That's one reason I respect the AA and related movements so much: those are people who KNOW they need to change. This point is important because if we do not believe that we need to change, we can hardly be expected to willingly collaborate in change, or even tolerate it, given all the implied inconvenience.

And God will not change us while we are unwilling. He gave us freedom, and respects that gift. We fell, and fall, into sin by our own free will, and will not be restored against it.

This experience is very much my own, Daniel in the Lion's Den. You see, I am a big ass. I have always, looking back, been a big ass. There are a number of friends who can corroborate my description of myself, though my ego hopes they wouldn't. And I for years received the Eucharist - the Body and Blood, the very Life, of Jesus Christ - into my own body, blood, and life, so unconsciously, so unprepared, so undisposed that it amazes me now. Mass was an inconvenience to me, and Holy Communion was just what you did kinda near the end. It was second nature to go up, and second nature not to think or care about it. Into my teenager years I fell into many of the unhealthy ways that many teenagers fall into, and so fortified myself all the more against Him.

For the last seven or eight years, though, I have made a real effort to do things differently. I go to Mass daily, and the Eucharist whenever I am properly disposed - never when I am aware of an unconfessed serious sin, or even a lesser one that is just bothering me; never without having prepared by at least a little fasting; usually first thing in the morning, on the way to work. I pay attention to the scripture lessons and the homily. I meditate on the actions leading up to the Communion. I pray while receiving our Blessed Lord into me.

And let me tell you, Daniel in the Lion's Den, it's made all the diffference in the world. I am still an ass, but not quite so big a one as before, I hope my friends would say. I can see my shortcomings more clearly than before (nine or ten years ago I didn't think I had any). I try harder, and with more success, to be gentle, patient, attentive with other people. It is easier for me to go further out of my way for them, to sacrifice for those closer to me, to put aside old grudges. Envy gnaws at me less, anger only surges in me once in a while.

Is it because I have been receiving the Eucharist in a new way these last several years? I cannot say for sure, but I know I could not have done it on my own. The two things coincide, but it seems odd that they should be merely a coincidence.

Anyway, Daniel in the Lion's Den, I appreciate your posts a great deal. They are sharp and usually carefully worded. I don't know if you are religious at all, but maybe you can toss up a prayer for me. For what it's worth, you'll have my prayers as well.

Hi, Ryan Haber,

You are right, Sandy rocks!

As to your argument re transubstantiation, you said:
(1) There is more to reality than the merely material;
(2) That our Lord declared/intended to change bread and wine into flesh and blood;
(3) That God can do anything that is not logically self-contradictory

#1 - agreed
#2 - not agreed, IMHO not necessary for the sacrament, not supported by scripture
#3 - not agreed, see #2

As always, we agree to disagree, and I have no other quarrel with your position.

God bless,

Arminius

Sandy, you rock!

But anyone can say anything is other than what it appears to be. Such declarations cannot be proved or disproved, and believing in them or not believing in them has no particular purpose or relevance for or against anything.

Victoria,

The Benedictine motto is "Ora et Labora," or "Work and Pray," and toward that end, the Rule of St. Benedict intends that each brother or sister in the community be engaged several hours daily in work that is conducive to contemplation - gardening, manual labor (like dishwashing, sweeping/scrubbing), etc. Work and prayer are not exclusive of each other, but can be harmonized and even, under the right circumstances, undertaken simultaneously. The rosary is a prayer method that is also suited to such combination. The Benedictine path is one of balance, each day combining times for work, prayer, recreation, meals, and study, inter al.

Now, as for your question about the Eucharist. There isn't an easy answer to it because of your use of the word "physical." The modern world, and those of us who dwell therein, typically takes a reductionist approach to understanding reality. The only things considered real are the physical. Other things are, accurately or not, reduced to physical explanations.

This schema isn't one in which the world has traditionally thought, though. Many of what we call "physical properties" come under the tradition Aristotelian/Thomist category of "accidents," or those properties of a thing that could be changed without changing WHAT the thing is (but only HOW it is). For instance, the dimensions of a table might be long and narrow, or it might be a square with sides of equal length. Either way, it is still a table because length and width are physical properties accidental to the table. Essential to the table, on the other hand, is a flat surface; without a flat surface, the thing might be a nice couch, an interesting toaster, or whatever, but is cannot at all be a table. The table might be brown or metal and still be a table, but without that flat surface, it is not a table.

What is changed in transubstantiation is WHAT the bread is - it goes from being bread and wine to body and blood. HOW it is, those properties that aren't essential, but only accidental, to it being bread (size, weight, color, etc.) remain the same. These things are mostly what are called the "physical properties" in modern, materialist science. That's fine. Not denying the usefulness of those terms for discussing normal, natural phenomena.

What I, along with the Catholic Church, and most people the world over, deny is that the physical, material description of a thing is all there is to that thing. My identical twin brother and I, for argument's sake, aren't two instances or copies of the same thing, just because our physical properties are the same. We are not only separate physically, but truly different things. Our physical properties aren't all that there is too us.

If you believe that all there is to the world is its material components, then you are a materialist/reductionist. That's fine. I'm not arguing that position right now, but only pointing it out as the reason why transubstantiation is implausible - because anything immaterial is implausible from such a viewpoint.

But if you believe that:
(1) There is more to reality than the merely material;
(2) That our Lord declared/intended to change bread and wine into flesh and blood;
(3) That God can do anything that is not logically self-contradictory; then
(***) Transubstantiation, the changing of bread-and-wine into flesh-and-blood while leaving physical appearances intact, is in fact possible and has been done at least by Him.

In which case the only question is whether He intended to transmit the power/authority to do likewise to any or all of his disciples, and under what conditions.

Fastforwarding a bit, yes, I do know that what appears fully to all physical senses to be only bread and wine are in fact the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, True God and True Man, lacking nothing essential either to his divinity or humanity.

to soja again-

sorry i left a word out-

do you believe in the transubstantiation of the eucharist? that it is the literal and real substance and PHYSICAL presence of the christ in the host?

soja- that actually is the big difference between spiritual retreats, where guests are not expected to live in the same manner as their hosts- and laypeople spending time at a benedictine monastery-

benedictines work- maybe in europe they only do it one hour a day- but sally is in america-
believe it or not- american catholics can be quite strict about the practice of their faith-

which leads me to an earlier question i asked you before-
i know you're a liberal catholic- i'm all for liberalism myself.
(although i could not personally reconcile my liberalism with what the church teaches and believes)

you stated on another post this-

"Luckily I'm a lay liberal Catholic who does not have to make decisions about which non-Christian/non-Catholic/or even Catholic (not eligible under the present Canon Law) may be given Communion in exceptional circumstances, for I would give Communion to anyone who asked for it and leave the rest to God.

July 14, 2008 3:21 AM

well, that is indeed fine- but you don't have to decide for others-

but what have you decided for yourself? that is really the only question that matters-

in catholicism- some questions are simply yes or no- the authority of the pope for instance-
there are allowances for quibbling about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin- but the issue of transubstantiation leaves no wiggle room at all-

you either belive it literally- or you commit heresy-
there is no in-between- even the most liberal priest will not debate this as it has been argued out for centuries by the doctors of the church-

if on believes in, say, consubstantiation- one no longer (according to church law) is welcome in the catholic church-

but what you've stated isn't even consubstantiation - but ubiquitarianism- which even the very liberal lutherans reject (and their concept is rejected by the church as too insubstantial)

http://www.lcms.org/ca/www/cyclopedia/02/display.asp?t1=U&t2=b

the adoration of and reception of the eucharist is the most sacred and everpresent sacrament a catholic can partake in- and is the smeinal core upon which the church is built-

to reject this foundation is to reject the catholic church-
so- it's a yes or no-
as a born and raised catholic- do you believe in the transubstantiation of the eucharist? that it is the literal and real substance and presence of the christ in the host?

E-Favorite,

Sorry, carelessness again on my part. Rather than "last paragraph" in my most recent post, I meant the one you referenced, "next-to-last paragraph". I caught that only right after I pressed 'post'.

Thank you for your patience with me.

E-Favorite:

I am so sorry that the intent of my message was overshadowed by my last comment. It really wasn't meant to be hurtful or dismissive. I parted with, "I respect your rights and peace be with you," and I mean it.

The handful of times that I have dared to speak my heart in a setting such as this, I have often been attacked for being Catholic. And being Catholic is not just a belief system that can be excised from me at this point - it is a part of who I have become, so it feels personal when that happens. I even made some very benign, positive comments regarding a video on GodTube and you wouldn't believe the venom that poured in, solely because I identified myself as Catholic. I live in a community that has until very recently been very anti-Catholic, openly and publicly (this is not where I grew up - I was fortunate to live in a much more tolerant and diverse city). Add to that the reference I made about family: my brother-in-law is so incredibly anti-Catholic that he won't let me in his house to visit my sister, wouldn't let me have anything to do with "his" kids before they grew up - only because he discovered that my husband and I are Catholic when he visited our home and saw our "Catholic Bible". It's his problem, not mine, I've never made any issue out of being Catholic, I'm never the one who brought it up. He married my sister long after I converted so it's not as if there was any big discussion on-going about my becoming Catholic.

So it's mostly personal baggage that was speaking in that last paragragh, but I'm not alone in bringing personal baggage to this forum. I really wasn't aware until you pointed it out that I was being pre-emptively defensive. I really thought that I was just making a statement for my faith - that I've been challenged and worn and torn and my faith still manages to hang in and sustain me. And if I may, my now adult daughter is not a believer, she often points me towards Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens - and I respect and love her just the same as ever. She is respectful and intelligent about the way she communicates and we have very interesting, informative discussions on faith. Because of the mutual respect we continue to be very close and this is not a divisive matter at all.

My feeling is that faith is a personal matter and should be respected. We can have our differences but nothing that we say matters if we don't do our best to live it. Mother Theresa never cared that the people she nursed and took care of believed in Buddha, Vishnu, Jesus, or nothing at all. She only cared that she was doing her best to be the face and hands of Jesus to all she encountered, showing pure love as best she could in her humanity.

The bottom line to what I intended to communicate is that if no disrespect was intended (by Ms. Quinn), even if by outward appearances she 'should have known better' then no real offense was committed. Obviously she is more informed at this point and probably won't repeat the same action. I hope this sentiment can apply to me, as well, in my awkward attempts to speak my heart. Someday I will learn to fully open my arms, reveal my heart, without trying to guard it with one hand or the other.

Again, peace be with you, and everyone.

Viejita del oeste:

Thank-you Soja and Mary and Ryan and all the others who have so patiently tried to shed light on this issue.

One thing -- Soja wrote (in response to "Those who marry outside of their faith are not supposed to take Communion...")

"[Soja's] response: Catholics are allowed to marry outside their faith AND receive Communion. As far I know anyone marrying in the Catholic Church is only obliged to raise the children as Catholics. The non-Catholic spouse is not expected to convert."

Church regulations don't even require you to raise the children Catholic anymore -- except maybe if you are married in a Catholic ceremony -- although they do encourage you to do so. The Catholic Church recognizes baptism and matrimony in another church. I know because I was baptised Dutch Reformed and married in the Congregational Church before I became Catholic, and I have not been required to repeat either ceremony. My husband was nominally Catholic to start with and being married to a Protestant would not have stopped him from being eligible for communion. (What stopped him was that he never went to mass in the first place.)

The sticking point is when someone remarries in a different church without receiving an annulment in their previous marriage. Then they can't receive communion because they are technically living in sin with their new spouse -- technically they may even be committing adultery -- because they are still technically married to their ex.

Just to set the record straight.

July 13, 2008 6:13 PM

================================

Viejita del oeste

Thank you for your kind words and additional information about Catholic Church rules. It is nice to know that you are a convert to Catholicism.

As an ordinary lay Catholic, I'm not particularly informed about Catholic Church doctrines. My information about marriage with non-Catholics in a Catholic Church comes from having known a couple of interfaith marriages. Of course I meant marrying in a Catholic Church.

I know too that annulment of a marriage in a Catholic church is the equivalent of a divorce in other Christian Churches, except that the conditions for annulment is much harder. Once upon a time the conditions were even stricter, almost impossible. Only marriage under duress, insanity (real, not fabricated for the sake of getting a divorce!) of one partner and childlessness were considered valid reasons for annulment. Annulment for adultery makes perfect sense since even Jesus permitted divorce for that reason. It is not right to punish the partner who was cheated, and the cheated partner should be allowed to remarry.

This is just my personal opinion: As far as giving Communion to Catholics for political "positions" or sin of any kind: I feel Communion should be offered because all of us need the mercy and forgiveness of Jesus. When Catholics sin (which all of us do to a lesser or greater degree) they need the mercy of Jesus even more. All Christians who are not anti-Catholics (who would probably come to a Catholic church in the first place) should likewise be offered Communion in the Catholic Church. It is important to concentrate on what we have in common - Jesus and His atoning work for our sins - rather than focus on the differences. I'm very keen about Christian unity. How wonderful it would be if all Christians were truly united in love and worked harmoniously together. Since we make up one third of the world's population, what a mighty force for good we could be. We can be engaged better and more meaningfully in interfaith dialogue only when we can prove to non-Christians that we are united as Christians.

And Victoria, as an afterthought on the topic you raised, I do not think it is necessary for Sally to become a Catholic. I was merely suggesting a way for her to learn about Catholicism from a good perspective (given all the Catholic bashing that seems to be prevalent on this forum and elsewhere in the US), not least because she is the moderator of an On Faith forum. If she should ever choose to become a Christian someday (at this stage she is more an agnostic or a believer in God with no specific religious inclination) there are other Christian denominations she would consider. Her father was a very devout Episcopalian and Jon Meacham, her spiritual mentor, is likewise an Episcopalian. So it might be her natural choice. She may find it impossible to join the Catholic Church because she disagrees with many Church doctrines, or whatever. It is not important. She should go where the Holy Spirit leads her. That is enough for me.

VICTORIA:

soja- do you even have any clue who the benedictines are?

i know youre a great devotee of bede griffith's-

and i suspect because he was a benedictine- that is where you get your ideas-

but his ashram in india didnt really replicate the actual mission of benedictines all over the world-

it's NOT a happy time relaxation and retreat-

the difference between benedictines, and say, trappists or domincans- is that their is the order of activity and work-

the bede was of a more contemplative nature-

the benedictines are more active involvement and basically- WORK-

also their prayer schedule is pretty rigid- they recite all of the prayers of opus dei every day- that alone is VERY catholic and requires several hours-

when people visit a benedictine monsatery- they also are required to work with their hands in the afternoon-

(also, there are 73 different "rules" each at least a page long)

did you even read what you linked?

i imagine the laid back relaxing atmosphere of bede griffith's retreat, a blend of hindu meditation and catholicism-
would be more to sally's liking-

i think that is what you were imagining-

July 13, 2008 2:43 PM

=======================================

Victoria

Thank you for your comments. I found another link to information about Saint Benedict of Nursia and the Benedictine Order:

http://www.osb.org/gen/benedict.html

I apologize if I mistook the book 'The Holy Rule of Benedict' for the Rule of Saint Benedict.

http://www.osb.org/gen/rule.html

==================================

Victoria: soja- do you even have any clue who the benedictines are?

Soja: I'm a half baked Benedictine (lay) Oblate of Shantivanam, the Indian Christian Ashram of Dom Bede Griffiths OSB (an English Benedictine monk). Fr Bede conducted the first of the two initiation ceremonies for me on 22 February 1992. He uses a combined Benedictine - Hindu sannyasa spiritual understanding. Accordingly he chose in addition to a New Testamant passage (Gospel of John), also a passage from the Bagavad Gita (including a new name for me). I had to choose my favourite Psalm (mine is 139). The second and final ceremony was to be conducted one year later, as per Benedictine monastery rules. But I could not return to India and Fr Bede passed away 13 May 1993.

In his autobiography, The Golden String, Fr Bede detailed his life in the Benedictine monastery in England. He had already served as Prior in England before he came to India. The Christian Ashram in India which Fr Bede took over (two French Benedictine monks had founded it) is structured very much on Benedictine traditions even if it incorporated some Hindu rituals and prayers and reading of Scripture from other faith traditions during afternoon and evening prayers.

I have spent some time in a lay Buddhist-Christian community affiliated to a German Benedictine monastery.

Victoria: i know youre a great devotee of bede griffith's-

Soja: I'm not a "devotee" of Dom Bede Griffiths OSB. I'm a Christian and Fr Bede made it clear to me that the Holy Spirit is my spiritual guide. Fr Bede did not play god or "guru" in anyone's life, he was merely a spiritual guide in the Christian sense. He is referred to as a guru ("guru") only because he lived like an Indian Sannyasi and integrated Hindu spirituality into Christian worship and was a great Christian pioneer in opening up to the wisdom of other religious traditions. However many Hindus are ahead of him in the matter of interfaith understanding. So he was merely doing for Christianity what Hindus had already done from a Hindu perspective.

Victoria: but his ashram in india didnt really replicate the actual mission of benedictines all over the world-

Soja: The Christian Ashram of Fr Bede Griffiths expected lay guests to work only for one hour per day as a lay person would in a German Benedictine monastery for example (during non-retreat days in the German monastery guests are expected to work for four hours).

What mission does a contemplative order like the Benedictines have to accomplish except ORA ET LABORA, to live their life quietly in prayer, study and work (mostly simple work that keeps the monastery self sufficient)? During retreats even the monks are not required to work their regular hours. Fr Bede's Ashram is a combination of a Hindu Ashram and a Benedictine monastery. Members of the Ashram live by different rules to the guests and each have their own area of work and responsiblity.

Victoria: it's NOT a happy time relaxation and retreat-

Soja: The living condition is extremely simple and ascetic. The day in the Ashram starts at 5.00 AM and finish at 9.15 PM for those who follow the rules. There are prayers five times a day, including Mass every morning. Two hours for personal prayer/meditation in addition, is part of the daily program. All meals, simple vegetarian, are taken silently (according to the Benedictine tradition one person reads aloud from a book). The mealtime at which talking is allowed is during two coffee breaks in the morning and evening. There are sometimes lectures by different people in the morning or afternoon. Meeting people happens naturally, but one is generally expected to maintain an atmosphere of calm in the Ashram in keeping with the intention to spend time quietly in prayer or study. Drugs and alcohol is strictly prohibited.

The day is thus structured with activities that is meant to bring happiness and relaxation to the soul.

Victoria: (also, there are 73 different "rules" each at least a page long)did you even read what you linked?

Soja: Once again I apologize if I provided the wrong link in my last post. Yes, I have read the German translation of the original book 'Rule of Benedict.'

Victoria: i imagine the laid back relaxing atmosphere of bede griffith's retreat, a blend of hindu meditation and catholicism-
would be more to sally's liking- i think that is what you were imagining-

Soja: I happen to know the difference between a Benedictine monastery in Europe and the Christian Ashram of Fr Bede in India. If you must know, Fr Bede considered the Benedictine monastery too "luxurious" compared to Indian Ashrams. Fr Bede was extremely ascetic. That is why he opted for a harsher style of asceticism for himself.

Life in Shantivanam is pretty harsh compared to Western monasteries. There is nothing laid back and relaxing about the asceticism. Westerners like Sally could hardly last one day of it. So, don't worry I was recommending a comparatively luxurious version of a monastic environment for Sally.

Please note that I was NOT asking Sally to stay at a Benedictine monastery, but merely to visit it and maybe join their prayers sometime and talk to a deeply prayerful monk who is an experienced spiritual counselor for Sally to get to know a little more about Catholicism.

I do not believe in forcing religion on anyone. I'm sufficiently confident about the merits of Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular that I see no need to use any kind of coercion. What use does coercion serve anyway? The journey of a soul to God is between that soul and God. It is hallowed ground into which no bumbling human being may enter. The Holy Spirit is the ultimate guide. Not even the holiest man or woman dare try to take the place. We may at best say our little piece and back off for the soul to make completely free choices. God's greatest gift to mankind is our free will. No human being has the right to rob anyone of it.

Sally will find her way for I am confident that the Holy Spirit is leading her. It is not my business to have her convert to Catholicism. I'm not the Holy Spirit.

Sandy – I loved your post all the way down to the next-to-the-last paragraph and was all set to tell you how your sentiments made it possible for me to feel warmly about the faith of my childhood. And I still can say that. But your closing thoughts were a big disappointment – a blow in fact.

It seems like out of nowhere, you said, “Non-believers, don't bother with me. If some members of my own family can't get to me, you surely can't.”

Did I miss something? Have non-believers here been snipping at your heels? Or did you feel the need to make a pre-emptive strike against those aggressive atheists you’ve heard about? I wish you hadn’t done it. It detracts from an otherwise lovely statement of understanding and acceptance. You could have included us non-believers in it by simply not mentioning us.

Daniel itld – your last post is a classic. xoxoxo. I hope a lot of people read it and don’t miss it in a rush to make their own points.

Will it make you happy to see me suffer, Spidey?

Is this the grace of your God?

Bon appetit.

"This temple that is built so well
To separate us from ourselves
Is a power grown beyond control
A Will without a Face

"And watching from outside, I wish
That I could wash my hands of this
But we are locked together here
This bittersweet embrace

...
Oh God I love the world"

Get it?

"It was not my intention to offend you. I have nothing against you as a Pagan."

It was also not our ertwhile columnists's intention to offend *you.*

Considering that the Church couldn't un-f its social agenda with retro-rockets and a truckload of Astroglide, though, I might ask the same consideration on behalf of our dear hostess here.

That's all.

Posted on July 14, 2008 18:48 Paganplace:
"" Anonymous:

BS.""

"Ok, you called BS. BS what? It'sa funny thing, but my mail-order ministerial credential s count for a lot more than the ones I worked for. But they involved an oath, and that oath involves derving those I might personally feel are full of BS in times of need.

In hose times I will sincerely ask someone else's God to go ahead and help this random Pagan take care of one of his own.

Seems only fair, really.

People dying is no time to be getting territorial.

What world do *you* live in?"

****************************

It was not my intention to offend you. I have nothing against you as a Pagan.

I mean, that's kin of my thing about my 'first reconciliation.

You Catholics were willing to believe I had been 'deflied.'

You were also willing to just sit there.

Actually, I was stalling for time.

The cowardice is the same, though.

I mean, seriously, Arminius, how many good nights' sleep did these f's have when they looked me in the face believing they'd just let a priest hey knew was up on charges had done me....

Maybe, they want all this political absilutism cause the sex abuse' thing wasn't a 'scandal,' it was part and parcel of Catholic life, and *everyone knew.*

And I saw your faces. Ye innocent.

"Lord help us all, you are seriously pissed. Calm down, dear Lady, ya got friends. Go salvage a Guinness or something.

Arminius"

Well, what would they like, I actually really *hate* them?

If it were about what anyone deserved, that would be easy.

What if it wasn't, though?

Paganplace,

Lord help us all, you are seriously pissed. Calm down, dear Lady, ya got friends. Go salvage a Guinness or something.

Arminius

Yeah, btw.

Cowards.

As much as you let your Popes blame it on 'queerness,' or whatever absraction.

You sat there.

I saw the shame and cowardice in your eyes.

You thought I'd been violated and you sat there.

Girl as I was.

But blame the gays and vote for Bush and business as usual.

I call BS.

I call... You lookat what you done.

I call...

Reality.

I don't suppose you 'holy' SOBs' have any idea how much you absract demand materially-hurt *real people* do you?

Do you have any idea how much you hurt the people ou ignore, then feel all virtuous for throwing crumbs to?

HOly Mother of Punk, I don't wanna go begging any more.

You stuck0-up SOBs.

Seriously. How much would you like me to beg before you listen to me when I say you're getting played?

How long do you expect me to *last?*

What do you Mother-loving *want* you pantywaists?

YOu Catholics sat there and looked at me and my friends when you thought worse happened than ...happened.

I saw the cowardice in your eyes.

You thought I got raped.

You sat still.

Don't tell me about morality.

Period.

That is the problem with some Christians here; they don't know much about their own bible and actually non-Christians know more about the bible and its history than they do. It is embarrassing.

Even the Catholic encyclopedia aknowledges the not so accidental similiraies between the three synoptic gospel, which is known as the synoptic problem; this what they have to say about it:

"Turning over the pages of an ordinary harmony of the four, or of a synopsis of the first three, Gospels, which show in parallel columns the coincident parts of the evangelical narratives,

the reader will at once notice the large amount of matter which is common to the Gospels of St. Matthew, St. Mark, and St. Luke. Brief as these three sketches of Christ's life actually are, they run parallel to one another in no less than 330-370 verses or about one-third of their whole account of Christ's words and deeds, while, with the exception of a few incidents (68 verses), the whole contents of St. Mark are practically found in St. Matthew and in St. Luke. This agreement in the facts related appears all the more striking, because of the great amount of historical material which must have been at the disposal of each Synoptical writer.

In constructing their several records, the Synoptists adopt the same general method of presentation, giving not a consecutive narrative that would result from a fusing of the material employed, but a series of little accounts which are isolated by peculiar introductory and concluding formulæ, and which repeatedly agree in details and in order even where a deviation from the chronological sequence is manifest.

Together with all these resemblances, there is throughout the Synoptics a remarkable agreement in words and phrases, which can be more particularly realized by means of a Greek harmony or a close translation of the original text.

This verbal agreement in the Greek Gospels is all the more surprising, as Jesus spoke in Aramaic, and as in most cases, it is plain that the verbal resemblances cannot be referred to an accidental similarity, since they are due to the common use of very peculiar terms and expressions, of identical variations from either the Hebrew or the Septuagint in quotations from the Old Testament.

These resemblances and differences, the extent and complexity of which grow upon the student who compares carefully the Synoptic Gospels and contrasts them with St. John's narrative, constitute a unique phenomenon in ancient and modern literature. They are facts which no one can refer either to mere chance, or to the direct influence of inspiration. On the one hand, the resemblances are too numerous and too striking to be regarded as explicable on the hypothesis that the first three Evangelists wrote independently of one another. On the other, the differences are at times so significant as to imply that they are due to the use of different documents by the Evangelists, as for example in the case of the two genealogies of Jesus Christ. The harmony and the variety, the resemblances and the differences must be both accounted for. They form together a literary problem, -- the Synoptic Problem."

Wow, I feel like I've been in a small tornado, just reading the original column and then the responses. Surely the responses on the nastier side would have been somewhat more civil had they been delivered in person. Or am I naive?

But back to the original point. Let me state my credentials, so to speak. I am female, I am 50, I am Catholic. I converted 30 years ago of my own free choice, and with some mild objections from my family - and very mild, really, because they did encourage me to find my own way. (We were raised nominally, vaguely Protestant.) I received good basic instruction in the Catholic faith back then but over the last 15 - 20 years have pursued deeper knowledge through reading and through formal classes. I taught catechism to 2nd - 5th graders for a number of years. And I still have so much to learn!

A few weeks ago I attended a Mass that was being celebrated by a newly ordained priest. He was rather unique in that he was formerly, I believe, a Presbytarian minister who converted to the Episcopal Church, became a minister (priest) there, then a number of years later converted to Catholicism. He is married by the way. Under certain circumstances such a person can be ordained a priest in the Roman Catholic church, but cannot rise to bishop, etc. So, back to the Mass. At Communion a little boy, perhaps three or so, trailing behind his daddy put his hands out in front of the priest as he saw everyone else do, and did it with great confidence. Three is much too young...seven is the normal age, but First Communion has been granted for the prepared child at a slightly younger age. What happened? The priest gave him Communion. Was he wrong? Well, probably not wrong, he misjudged, I would say. Maybe he can't tell a husky three-year-old from a six-year-old. Maybe the dad should have been supervising more carefully, but I don't know what was going on in his head and heart. Or that of the priest, of course. I don't think anyone -certainly not the child - willfully disobeyed or disrespected the beliefs of our faith. (I'm fairly certain that at least one of the nuns in attendance gave gentle guidance to the new priest, but no one came rushing up to the altar to intervene!)

So Sally, I might put you in the shoes of that little child. Yeah, maybe you should have known better - sophisticated, intelligent journalist that you are. But in matters of faith and religion you are still on your tricycle, you haven't graduated up to the bike with training wheels yet (not many of us have). And as for Cardinal McCarrick or whoever might have offered you the Eucharist, don't assume that because you are famous that you are known not to be Christian or Catholic to that person...some people don't pay attention to the celebrity world, some people don't read the Post regularly or at all.

I take my faith very, very seriously. I love my faith, it feeds and sustains me. I believe in the True Presence, and hope that Jesus resides in me, and I in Him. I take real abuses and disrespect very seriously. The people who know, and yet do it anyway, they are held to a higher degree of responsibility. I'm just not feeling it here. I am certain that much has been learned, I hope positively.

I am reminded that the best statement, the best defense at times, one can make with one's faith is to try to truly live that faith, not shout it in someone's face or bash them over the head with it.

Sally, I am praying that you get that bike with the training wheels real soon, and I am sure whatever road you travel down Tim Russert and many with him will be helping guide you and strengthen you for a great, shiny grown-up bike of your choosing.

Non-believers, don't bother with me. If some members of my own family can't get to me, you surely can't. I respect your rights, and peace be with you.

Ever occured to you, 'Truth,' that some folks is just trying to live, and maybe some freaks trying to tirn Tim Russert's dead body into some kind of bloody shirt ain't what those who loved him had in mind?

Ifyou think yer Jesus aint behind that, that's between you and him.

People are tyring to live, here.

Spud.

" Anonymous:

BS."

Ok, you called BS. BS what?

It'sa funny thing, but my mail-order ministerial credential s count for a lot more than the ones I worked for. But they involved an oath, and that oath involves derving those I might personally feel are full of BS in times of need.

In hose times I will sincerely ask someone else's God to go ahead and help this random Pagan take care of one of his own.

Seems only fair, really.

People dying is no time to be getting territorial.

What world do *you* live in?

I think that most of Sally Quinn's Catholic critics on this thread do not seem to grasp the context in which this "incident" occurred.

It was at a funeral. She says Tim Russert was a good friend. I believe her. She had come to his funeral to express mourning for her loss and celebrate his life. She did not come for an ettiquette lesson. The people to whom it was a duty to excercise ettiquette were the Catholic hosts, and not the mourners.

The priest offered her communion and she accepted. That is the beginning and the end of it. As a representative of the church, the priest's actions consitute church approval, by the very definiton of church approval, which no church offical has contradicted. So, it is improper for Catholic lay-people to second guess in a forum such as this, how the priest handled the "incident."

But this is not really about Catholicism; it is about human nature, about sour grapes, and jealousy, and unending and nit picking criticism without moderation, or appropriateness. If you do not like someone for no reason in particular, perhaps they have the wrong religion, perhaps they have the wrong politics, perhaps they look too good or too rich, or whatever, but, never miss an opportunity to pick up the nearest weapon and clobber them over the head with it.

I think this is more the case, that some people just don't like Sally, than that she took communion at her friend's funeral.

Religious confusion certainly reigns here lately.

Rev 12:9 is certainly 'alive and well' (tongue-in-cheek) today in our whole, decieved world.

Take heart, folks..and hang in there...truth will be made known, all will see....and relatively soon.

Mr Mark,

I'll let you handle Anon's latest ramble. You are much better at delivering a crushing blow than I am.

But I was tempted...

Arminius

Yeah, btw. for the same reason monks fast, people are more malleable if you push religion *then* feed them.

Speaking f 'faith-based initiatives.'

BS.

"Paganplace!

"Beautiful song. How the hell anyone could put the label of 'obscenity' on that is beyond me. (Well, Spidey would, but we all know about him.)"

Well, I looked cooler saying it in 1986, but what Reagan did to the media tuened out to be kind of important atfer all.... Let's not forget this band was being banned while pederast priests were getting immunity and any Fundie working as a daa processor was at liberty to make a blip of anyone they thought might be a 'lesbian.'. cf: me being homeless for years with no legal ideantity in a nation that apparently just lacked suficient 'faith' for the electrolyte deficient to be fed in body while being programmed with Calvinism.

"That statement flies in the face of what 95% of Biblical scholars believe."

Last time I checked statement Biblical scholars are not Christians therefore only have "book knowledge" of the Bible and not spiritual knowledge.

Tell your crude friend to grow up, their immaturity is sipping through, big time!

Paganplace!

Beautiful song. How the hell anyone could put the label of 'obscenity' on that is beyond me. (Well, Spidey would, but we all know about him.)

Arminius

Admittedly it counts for metric diddlysquat in my personal word.

But I told you so.

What will you do now?

Anon writes:

"Matthew did not copy from Mark, both writers addressed the same topic only Matthew provided the text more fully."

That statement flies in the face of what 95% of Biblical scholars believe.

Paganplace,

Ease up, take a deep breath. I don't understand some of what you just wrote. You are exhausting me again....

Irish music - two of the songs on the disk are Christian. Well, the Irish have been Christian for a while. I would love to hear real Pagan music, by the way.

Who is anal, by the way? I could not follow....

Arminius

BS

And, Arminius, sorry about the ranting. This kind of stuff... really gets to me on some levels. That got all too personal.

Child of the 80's, I guess.

Here's a somg from someone Reagan banned under 'obscenity' laws even thought hey never talked about sex or used any verboten words:

Frankly, I couldn't care if the Church had the Bright Lady on a meathook, but this was the song:

"The roll of distant thunder breaks
The afternoon of silence wakes
They hurry through from Petergate...
As if they know this Dance

In fury blind, I drive at night
Across the moors, the open roads
Beneath the freezing starry skies
Racing in some trance...

These cities are illusions
Of some triumph over Nature's laws
We see the iron carcass rust
And buildings tumble into dust
And as the waters rise it seems
We cling to all the rootless things
The Christian lies, technology

While spirits scream and sing ...
Oh God I love the world

Well I never said I was a clever man
But I know enough to understand
That the endless leaps and forward plans
Will someday have to cease
You blind yourselves with comfort lies
Like lightning never strikes you twice
And we laugh at your amazed surprise
As the Ark begins to sink

This temple that is built so well
To separate us from ourselves
Is a power grown beyond control
A Will without a Face

And watching from outside, I wish
That I could wash my hands of this
But we are locked together here
This bittersweet embrace

...
Oh God I love the world

And if one day the final fire
Explodes across the whitened sky
I know you said you rather die
And make it over fast
With courage from your craven friends
Waiting outside for the end
With no bitterness,
but an innocence
That I can't seem to grasp
I know somehow I will survive
This fury just to stay alive
So drunk with sickness, weak with pain
I can walk the hills one last time

Scarred and smiling, dying slow
I'll scream to no one left at all
I told you so I told you so I told you so ...
Oh God I love the world

================================================

-New Model Army

Anonyous, "I am quoting Mark and you are quoting Matthew. They are both talking about the same episode but as absurd as it may seem they are different. Matthew was copying from Mark and he felt the need to add an exception and that's how you have a loophole. Pay attention."

Excuse me?? Pay attention?? Matthew did not copy from Mark, both writers addressed the same topic only Matthew provided the text more fully.

If you study ad nauseam you will find there is more to the text regarding divorce in Matthew then you give credence too.

The response from religionists of all stripes to this communion "issue" proves once again that the Xian sects are a religious belief separated by a common saviour.

Interesting how the DISTRUST and outright HATRED of other Xian sects by those Xians not belonging to said sects is quite evident, putting the lie to the "men of good will" moniker that Xians love to attach to themselves.

Is it any wonder that the rationalists/atheists scoff at all of their pretensions and all of their woo-woo beliefs? I think not.

Perhaps the Xians should take this opportunity to reflect on the high dungeon they are held in by their fellow Xians from sects different than their own. Perhaps in so doing they'll understand why most of the civilized world is finally abandoning their childish belief systems, belief systems that have for too long promoted inequality, racism and sexism as a type of warped and sick "morality" to its adherents.

Looks like the ecumenical movement is not much more than an empty shell these days. Let's hope religion in general isn't too far behind, consumed by its own elitism, inhumanity and abject stupidity.

The Wafer Wars. Who woulda thunk?

And that bothers me, anyway, speaking of 'Faith-based intitiatives,' it seems I remember a whole lot of people trying to make me oathsworn to fill my stomach along the way, then claiming they're better than government in overcoming poverty.

Anyway, as far as *my* aforementioned funeral is concerned. If you Christians would like to have no non-Catholicism desecrate the funeral Mass my Ma doubtless needs in order to not think Heaven is the definition of Hell without her kid in it....

*You* deal with your quirks.

I've been a lifelong Pagan for twenty years, as far as their records could know (Before then I needed no more complications) But they *still* claim me as a Catholic, even if that aparently disqualifies me as a Pagan from begging for help on behalf of Cathioic single mothers.

I mean, what's a girl gotta do to get excommunicated, anyway?

Gods.

I still submit you're getting anal about an awful lot of things if you won't actually let the likes of *me* go.

Bon appetit.

" Walter L. Taylor:

""I am a Presbyterian minister, and thus take very seriously any sort of Christian religious practice. I have my disagreements with the Roman Catholic Church over a number of issues. Having said that, I nonetheless respect the Roman Catholic Church, and do not believe that I have the right to barge in on those acts of worship which that church says I may not. I ask for the same respect myself when it comes to my own worship practices."

Great. Next time you get wind of a Pagan wrship service, kidly leave behind the sticks and bullhorns. Thanks.

"i, Paganplace!

"Yes, I have missed our conversations too.
This matter of myth vs spiritual apparently needs some discussion. To me, a myth is at worst, an interesting story (see Adam and Eve), but at best, a doorway into the spiritual realm (see the first creation story)."

I'm kind of noticing it's those who refuse to se the difference being the real bastards about it, these past fifteen hundred years.

"Hey, I'm Irish too, and right now I'm listening to Irish music! REAL stuff, too, 'Women of Song', singing in Gaelic and English, spooky stuff."

I dunno, a lotta stuff these days is being sold as Irish and it's just 'Christian music' with ocasional grace notes from Uileann pipes.

as a Gael, I'd keep in mind, everything they did to the Native Americans, they practiced on *us.*

I am a Presbyterian minister, and thus take very seriously any sort of Christian religious practice. I have my disagreements with the Roman Catholic Church over a number of issues. Having said that, I nonetheless respect the Roman Catholic Church, and do not believe that I have the right to barge in on those acts of worship which that church says I may not. I ask for the same respect myself when it comes to my own worship practices.

Having said that, Ms. Quinn, whether she meant it or not (and I take her word that she did not), showed great disrespect for the Roman Catholic Church when she received communion at Mr. Russert's funeral.

For one thing, the Eucharist celebrated at Mr. Russert's funeral was not about him. It was not some sort of personlized religious ritual in his honor. That is not the point of the Eucharist in any Christian tradition.

One of my brothers recently lost his wife to a sudden, tragic death. Because my brother and his wife are Roman Catholic, there was a funeral mass. I did not go forward to receive communion (a strange experience for me, as I usually am the one administering communion), out of respect for the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, and out of respect for the religious tradition of my sister-in-law. That simply is not my "right."

When it comes to the way post-moderns treat religion (especially those of the Christian variety), more respect should be shown.

Hi, Paganplace!

Yes, I have missed our conversations too.

This matter of myth vs spiritual apparently needs some discussion. To me, a myth is at worst, an interesting story (see Adam and Eve), but at best, a doorway into the spiritual realm (see the first creation story).

Hey, I'm Irish too, and right now I'm listening to Irish music! REAL stuff, too, 'Women of Song', singing in Gaelic and English, spooky stuff.

Arminius

Maybe you'll like this story, though, There was a great king in Ireland named Conchubhair. ...known for wise and fierce and not issuing no-bid contracts and declaring 'Mission accomplished' among our people.

He was a gread ard-ri among the ancient Irish, who in battle took a slingstone upside the head, and into. The Druids, not being brain surgeons, said, 'Probably best we don't agitate you, or cephalic pressures'll go all to pot...

According to Christian Irish legend, at least, some missionary came along (probably actually way before 1 CE) and said how Jesus got treated.

King Conchubair got so pissed off about it he stormed around the hall and blew the slingstone right out his head and died.

This did not help anybody.

Hi, Arminius! I've missed our conversations. :)

"But to say it is in 'mythic space' is, IMHO, not accurate. It is in spiritual space."

See, my point there was that Christians can't see those to be the same thing. Hence many squabbles.

In the minds of those who believe that their 'myth' needs to be 'literally true' to preserve various authorities and exclusions and conflicts and agendas, 'Myth' is a dirty word.

You can't own a myth.

And that seems to be the problem for many. Who don't get what the Mythtree is about.

The continuing problem here is the what did the historic Jesus really say and do.

Did he establish the Catholic Church via Gos. Thom. 13; (2a) Mark 8:27-30 = Matt 16:13-20 = Luke 9:18-21; (2b) Gos. Naz. 14; (2c) John 6:67-69.)

According to many contemporary historic Jesus and NT exegetes (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Frederiksen- members of the On Faith Panel), he did not since these passages fail to meet historic requirements of attestations and stratums.

Did he establish the sacrament of the Eucharist?

(1a) 1 Cor 10:14-22
(1b) 1 Cor 11:23-25
(2) Mark 14:22-25 = Matt 26:26-29 = Luke 22:15-19a[19b-20]
(3) Did. 9:1-4
(4) John 6:51b-58

Again, according to many contemporary historic Jesus and NT exegetes (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredericksen- members of the On Faith Panel), he did not since these passages fail to meet historic requirements of attestations and stratums.

A good summary of the last days of Jesus' life:

From Professors Crossan and Watts' book, Who is Jesus.

"That Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate, as the Creed states, is as certain as anything historical can ever be.

“ The Jewish historian, Josephus and the pagan historian Tacitus both agree that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea. And is very hard to imagine that Jesus' followers would have invented such a story unless it indeed happened.
WaPo blog blocked this paragraph for some reason “While the brute fact that of Jesus' death by crucifixion is historically certain, however, those detailed narratives in our present gospels are much more problematic. "

“My best historical reconstruction would be something like this. Jesus was arrested during the Passover festival, most likely in response to his action in the Temple. Those who were closest to him ran away for their own safety.

I do not presume that there were any high-level confrontations between Caiaphas and Pilate and Herod Antipas either about Jesus or with Jesus. No doubt they would have agreed before the festival that fast action was to be taken against any disturbance and that a few examples by crucifixion might be especially useful at the outset. And I doubt very much if Jewish police or Roman soldiers needed to go too far up the chain of command in handling a Galilean peasant like Jesus. It is hard for us to imagine the casual brutality with which Jesus was probably taken and executed. All those "last week" details in our gospels, as distinct from the brute facts just mentioned, are prophecy turned into history, rather than history remembered."

Hi, Paganplace,

OK, I'll deal.... regarding Communion, better known as the Holy Eucharist. A bit of a correction here. There is metaphor there, of course. And also mystery. But to say it is in 'mythic space' is, IMHO, not accurate. It is in spiritual space. As the final prayer of the ceremony says, in part:
"...you have fed us with spiritual food in the Sacrament of his Body and Blood. Send us now into the world in peace..."

Big difference between spiritual and mythical, I dare to think.

Arminius

" i guess even she became aware of how irreverent and disrespectful a motvie that was-"

No, I think she became aware how much her actions offended some people. Her motives were of the exact opposite of disrespect.

In Catholic belief, at least as taught by an elder of mine eho was Catholic clergy and would have had some kind of clergy of *me* it's not a Christian human's place to go speaking to people's motives.

Never mind invent some deep dark motives to justify bringing 'war' into that God's house.

You know, what all this gives me cause to wonder about, is if it's so darn important to Catholics what church someone's a part of, why not make some accommodation for events bound to have a lot of mixed Christian company, anyway? I've helped write and perform a number of Pagan weddings, a lot of which were especially designed to retain their meaning while not ambushing cowan guests with stuff that would make them feel *they* were praying to Names of 'badness.'

Weddings are for joy, funerals are for grief and another kind of celebration: both are about *coming together.* Placing other matters ahead of this does little honor to the occasion.

I mean, I feel awkward enough sitting in a pew for weddings or funerals as it is, myself, and I'm still pretty familiar with the etiquette. (No, I wouldn't go up for Communion. I don't expect.)

I can't help but think that it's likely I'll be buried in a Catholic ceremony, myself, if I don't outlive my mother. She needs it. My Pagan friends and loves aren't afraid in that way. What sits uncomfortably is that it'll all be about the familiar lie about people becoming 'good Catholics' post mortem, anyway. Who I am will probably not put in an appearance. But they'll say a Mass dedicated to the notion that the real me would burn in their Hell. And maybe when the moment comes, not believe it.

In today's world, where people actually *mix* between denominations, it seems a funeral is not the time to force people to deal with divisive things.

But you're darn right people will confuse the decedant with Jesus in those ceremonies. That's kind of the point, and Gods know that's how it happens for some in life.

Fact is, the very most of *Catholics* don't believe the 'Host' turns into a bloody gobbet of Savior... it's not a *metaphor* to them, though, it's in *mythic* space. By making 'myth' a dirty word, people are taught to think that something is either literally-true-as-written or a 'metaphor.'

But it's supposed to be 'Myth,' in that good sense we Pagans deal with all the time... And Mystery, as your deacon might chant (In that case I think it's become just a disconnect and psychological double-bind to make people respoond as they do, but everyone, most especially me, is a critic. :) )

Point there is that people set up an all or nothing sort of 'binary,' 'The Bible is Literally True Or The Bible (or someone's spin thereon) Is Literally False.'

Authoritarians, Protestant and Catholic both, find the notion of 'Literal Truth' too useful a tool to really admit there's a 'Mystery' thing there. The Catholic compromise is to obey and figure that greater 'faith' (aka trying harder to believe') would put some clothes on that Emperor,

But I think it's missing the point. As critical of the Church as I obviously am, this Communion thing *is* a sacred thing that's supposed to *mean* something. As a Mystery. Not as a source of literalistic *authority.*

Your Jesus was called a Christ cause he was embodying things from the Eleusinian Mysteries, ...very similar, in many ways, right down to the Greek sorta-John Barleycorn type guy interesingly-named Iasu. Just part of the historical pattern of appropriating the local culture (And in this case, a lot of Aristotle) to impose certain ideas that don't really fit so well on real and breathing people.

The reason the Sanhedrin gave early Christians such a hard time, was likely cause (hypocritically, given how much of Moses' story is cribbed from Isis and Osiris, who just *happened* to live where the Jews were at the time, ) when the nexus of the Jesus cult went to Greece, it was seen in terms of the Greek cultural contexts and conflicts of the time. (Including some between 'faith and reason' and about the 'disposition of sacrifices.')

As Mark Twain said, 'History may not repeat itself, but it certainly does rhyme.'

Things have gotten so even Catholics are making their demands on people based on the 'literalism' of a book that was literally designed by committee.

Personally, I have no need of your ceremonies, and strongly believe that other people's ways should be respected, for whatever reason.

But I do think this argument is missing the point.

You believe that Host is *so* powerful, but only if you claim you can make yourself believe something someone tells you.

Personally, I think that makes it more of a spiritual cargo cult than the Mystery it's supposed to be, and it wouldn't be such a big hairy deal if people weren't attached to certain words in the first place, but....

But that's for you to decide, isn't it?

We Pagans get by fine on the notion that while our practices may be for anyone, they are not For Everyone (Or Else.).

Maybe...

It's not about the words or personalities.

Can you deal?

sorry bgone that was me-

BGONE asked-
"Did you feel anything, chill or good warm feeling, anything that signaled to you the communion bread was more than just bread?"

"I had only taken communion once in my life, at an evangelical church. It was soon after I had started "On Faith" and I wanted to see what it was like. Oddly I had a slightly nauseated sensation after I took it, knowing that in some way it represented the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Last Wednesday I was determined to take it for Tim, transubstantiation notwithstanding. I'm so glad I did. It made me feel closer to him."
(june article on tim russert)
she actually repeated this in this rticle-
but left out the line
"I wanted to see what it was like."

i guess even she became aware of how irreverent and disrespectful a motvie that was-

instead of an act of contrition to a priest- at some point- a little personal repsonsibility and at least a nod and acknowledgement to catholics would seem to be forthcoming-
let alone an apology-

but apparently her energies are all focused on how she appears to thers, as opposed to how she actually is-

I have a couple of questions you failed to answer in the essay. Please don't take this as criticism.

Do you believe the dead person, Tim Russert has any knowledge of what you did in his honor? Is Tim Russert dead, alive but transformed into another state, (spirit world) or alive and well in another world similar to this world? Are there other possibilities in your opinion? If you were voting on it how would you vote?

Did you feel anything, chill or good warm feeling, anything that signaled to you the communion bread was more than just bread? Some evangelicals get feeling so strong they actually pass out when the minister puts his hands on them and calls Jesus down from heaven to fill their inner spirits. The communion bread is advertised to be the body of Jesus by the church. Did you feel anything like the evangelicals feel and presumably Catholics somewhat feel? Did you almost, (I presume you didn't) pass out?

I've researched this a little. It turns out that according to the theory all you did was commit a mortal, (deadly) sin. To fix that you need to see a priest, admit you did it and he will surely absolve you from that sin. Otherwise, according to the theory you're in for a log stay, forever even with the angel that would be God Lucifer. Other research shows that Lucifer was the father of Jesus so I think you might be caught in one of those, damned if you do and damned if you don't traps.

To Mike M and all the others offended by Sally's behavior -

What about all those practicing Catholics walking up to the communion rail with Sally? Wouldn't it have been kind of them to spare her all this embarrassment by quietly taking her aside and explaining that she should not take communion and instead should cross her arms over her chest? Certainly practicing catholics have more of a responsibility to know the rules than Sally does and certainly many there knew she was not a Catholic.

I'm sorry, but so many of these posts, including yours, are not about defending the faith, they're about Sally-bashing.

I can see it, Daniel itld and a few others can see it. Can you?

Sally,

You disrespected another's beliefs, Sally. I think you should have tolerated and respected the faith of your friend. I think you could have shown respect and love simply by your presence and prayers. What you did was for you, and your action was in bad form.

A former Catholic and current (post-liberal centrist) United Methodist.

Mike M. in Colorado

I agree with what E Favorite has said about many of the Catholics that post here. Most of the Catholics that I meet in my personal life are friendly in an ordinary and normal way. And I have had more than one Catholic friend reply to me in a religious discussion, that "they don't know anything about religion except the catechism," which they explain to me, are some things that they memorized as children.

I am not anti-Catholic, either personally, nor institutionally. If I did not like Catholics, then why would I be friends with them and go with them to church? And I am not against the Catholic Church. I realize it is an immense, immovable thing, like a mountain range, that cannot be moved or influenced by my mere notice.

I have posted here mainly to defend Sally Quinn against unjust criticism. Picking on a non-Catholic person for making mis-steps at a Catholic funeral is hard-hearted and harsh. People say, she should have known better.

How?

I understand her lack of understanding. I have attended Catholic services, with ZERO instruction about what is going on or what I should do, in a process that seems a little complicated. Just how should people "know" what is the correct thing to do, or not to do?

And besides, wouldn't you give someone a pass at a funeral? And if not, then why not just ban non-Catholics from funerals? Or perhaps, just stop having funerals?

Ryan Haber, paraphrasing some non-catholics: "Those Catholics are so nasty, always wanting to have their own religion their own way."

No Ryan, what I see among many of the Catholics here is that they are just being nasty period. I see them going beyond explaining and defending their faith, to be cruel to Sally Quinn, even to the point of assuring her that her friend Tim Russert would be chastising her from heaven, as if they would know.

That's just plain human hubris and it disgusts me.

Even in the NIV, Mark 10 says:

"When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. 11He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery." (NIV)

I am quoting Mark and you are quoting Matthew. They are both talking about the same episode but as absurd as it may seem they are different. Matthew was copying from Mark and he felt the need to add an exception and that's how you have a loophole. Pay attention.

July 13@10:12, This is the excwption, ""(9) I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."" NIV

You need to study scripture more thoughly; take no offense, please.

I am really disappointed in your explanation.
You write
"A good start would be to study, to learn, to talk to people and to have an open heart and an open mind."

I suppose if this was your first exposure to a faith tradition different from your own, I could accept this-but it seems like you're a bit over the age when we can write it off to youth. Another approach to contrition might be-I was wrong to take communion at Tim Russert's funeral. Since his funeral, I have read (insert several items here) and have come to understand that I have insulted the Catholic Church and Catholics everywhere. By childishly defending my choice to participate in a sacrament that I have no right to, I have caused confusion among my readers. As is the common tradition in celebrity circles, as a concrete expression of my contrition, I donate (insert dollar amount) to the Archdiocese of Washington DC.

Worth a try?

Why the concern?

Baptism does not cleanse the soul since there is not original sin to cleanse i.e. the sinning parents did not exist.

Confirmation- Holy Spirit and his winged representations do not exist- Trinity is another theological mumbo jumbo invented by early theologians who had too much time on their hands.

Eucharist- already put the myth box as being nothing more than low calorie wafers and inexpensive wine.

Holy Orders- All the NT passages supposedly setting up said priesthood have been judged by many NT exegetes as being bogus.

Reconciliation/Confession- All the NT passages supposedly setting up said sacrament have been judged by many NT exegetes as also being bogus.

Last Rites - vitiated by the previous comments about said "sacraments".

Matrimony - only sacrament established by the historical Jesus as per most NT exegetes- easy annulments vitiate most of its importance- e.g. Catholic woman married 18 years to a Catholic man (ex-seminarian). They had seven children. Woman was given an annulment after the husband left with another woman.

According to Mark, the Catholics are right in this reagard; Remarrying is considered adultery no matter what the circumstances are as is clearly obvious from reading the verses found in the gospel according to Mark:

Some Pharisees came and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?"

"What did Moses command you?" he replied.

They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away."

"It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law," Jesus replied. "But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.' 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. He answered,

"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."

As you can see there is no exception.

Divorce is permitted in the Catholic and Christian beliefs on the grounds of adultery. The spouse that has committed adultery and remarries are consider to be living in an a state of adultery thus are committing adultery again. This same person, the one that they marry are also considered to be committing adultery, according to scripture.

The person that has not committed adultery is free to re-marry according to scripture read Matthew 19. God does not hold the “innocent” person responsible for the sins of someone who committed adultery and severed the marriage bond.

Matthew 19:4-8, (4) "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female, (5) and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh (6) So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
(7) Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away? (8) Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
(9) I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." NIV

Thank-you Soja and Mary and Ryan and all the others who have so patiently tried to shed light on this issue.

One thing -- Soja wrote (in response to "Those who marry outside of their faith are not supposed to take Communion...")

"[Soja's] response: Catholics are allowed to marry outside their faith AND receive Communion. As far I know anyone marrying in the Catholic Church is only obliged to raise the children as Catholics. The non-Catholic spouse is not expected to convert."

Church regulations don't even require you to raise the children Catholic anymore -- except maybe if you are married in a Catholic ceremony -- although they do encourage you to do so. The Catholic Church recognizes baptism and matrimony in another church. I know because I was baptised Dutch Reformed and married in the Congregational Church before I became Catholic, and I have not been required to repeat either ceremony. My husband was nominally Catholic to start with and being married to a Protestant would not have stopped him from being eligible for communion. (What stopped him was that he never went to mass in the first place.)

The sticking point is when someone remarries in a different church without receiving an annulment in their previous marriage. Then they can't receive communion because they are technically living in sin with their new spouse -- technically they may even be committing adultery -- because they are still technically married to their ex.

Just to set the record straight.

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Just like we are still waiting for Paul's "prophecy" about the "imminent" second coming when we finally will get the facts about the Eucharist, Resurrection, Limbo and Rocks, we are still waiting for your answers to the following poll/survey:

Do you believe in:

1. In "pretty/ugly wingie" thingies?

2. That the long-dead Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words now listed in the koran?

3. That Sunnis are superior to Shiites in all aspects of life?

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7 800 year-old feud between Sunnis and Shiites give significant credence that suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran?

5. That having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of lust and polygamy?

6. And that the condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of anger and greed???????

To wit:

From Hirsi Ali's book, Infidel:

paperback issue, p. 47:

"Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly beaten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their screams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!"

soja- do you even have any clue who the benedictines are?

i know youre a great devotee of bede griffith's-

and i suspect because he was a benedictine- that is where you get your ideas-

but his ashram in india didnt really replicate the actual mission of benedictines all over the world-

it's NOT a happy time relaxation and retreat-

the difference between benedictines, and say, trappists or domincans- is that theirs is the order of activity and work-

the bede was of a more contemplative nature-

the benedictines are more active involvement and basically- WORK-

also their prayer schedule is pretty rigid- they recite all of the prayers of opus dei every day- that alone is VERY catholic and requires several hours-

when people visit a benedictine monsatery- they also are required to work with their hands in the afternoon-

(also, there are 73 different "rules" each at least a page long)

did you even read what you linked?

i imagine the laid back relaxing atmosphere of bede griffith's retreat, a blend of hindu meditation and catholicism-
would be more to sally's liking-

i think that is what you were imagining-

Soja, Soja, Soja,

Catholics and Christians also once had faith that the Earth was the Center of the Universe, that the Earth was flat, and that St. Christopher was really a saint.

Science, history, and rational thinking changes "faith". The Eucharist is nothing more than a low calorie, sometimes stale wafer and/or inexpensive, sometimes sour wine.

Link to an online version of The Holy Rule of St Benedict:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/benedict/rule.i.html?highlight=the,holy,rule,of,st,benedict#highlight

Dear Sally

May I chime in? If you are really interested in Catholicism, seek out a deeply prayerful monk and spiritual director from the Benedictine monastery in Washington DC. You could spend regular quiet time away from the hustle and bustle and get to know Catholicism from one of its most beautiful aspects. Benedictine monasteries are credited with guarding European learning and culture in politically troubled times. They have a marvelous Christ centered spirituality and a history that will leave you filled with awe. Read the rules of Benedict for some information about their spirituality. You don't have to convert to Catholicism at all. You could simply enjoy the beauty of a deeply spiritual experience in a truly Catholic atmosphere away from the madding crowd.

However I'm sure the Holy Spirit will lead you as He sees fit.

Best wishes
Soja

CCNL

I'm sure you are no longer the young handsome man you once were. But your wife loves you just the same as she did on your wedding day, doesn't she? She looks at you with the eyes of love and faith and finds you handsome, and loves you still. Isn't that a wonderful thing?

It is faith, and faith alone, that gives meaning to a piece of " stale wafer and inexpensive sour wine."

Ms. Quinn, if you are sincerely interested in learning the Catholic religion, as you say you are, you have to do more than chat with people and look at the back of programs at funeral services, as someone must have told you by now.
The absolute minimum effort is mastering the Catechism of the Catholic Church, particularly for someone who is engaging in a public "search" for knowledge and who is leading a "faith" forum at a serious newspaper.
Have you ever read the Catechism?
What bothers me about your several postings on this Tim Russert funeral matter is the startled lack of comprehension on your part of how inappropriate it is for someone who evidentally knows so little about the tenets of a religion to be commenting on it at all - let alone actually participating in the deepest mystery and central act of that Church.

And in conclusion, it is nothing more than a low calorie sometimes stale wafer and inexpensive sometimes sour wine!!!!

Dear Sally

I'm a simple lay person with no real knowledge of Catholic doctrines concerning who may or may not receive Communion in the Catholic Church. Let me try to add my two cents to clarify your genuine confusion with my lay Catholic commonsense anyway.

You wrote: " I did know that there has been much debate and controversy in the Catholic church about who may or may not take Communion."

My response: There could be no dispute about whether an atheist/agnostic may receive Communion, since Communion is a Christian-Catholic Sacrament.

You wrote: "Some Catholic Pro-Choice candidates have been refused Communion because of their political positions, and yet Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, Chris Dodd and Nancy Pelosi all took Communion when Pope Benedict was here this spring."

My response: They are all Catholics. I don't know that a political "position" constitutes a mortal sin.

You wrote: "Those who marry outside of their faith are not supposed to take Communion..."

My response: Catholics are allowed to marry outside their faith AND receive Communion. As far I know anyone marrying in the Catholic Church is only obliged to raise the children as Catholics. The non-Catholic spouse is not expected to convert.

You wrote "... but Rudy Giuliani did, despite the criticism."

The Catholic Church does not allow divorce, so maybe a remarried divorcee may be denied Communion.

You wrote: "Non-Catholics are not supposed to take Communion at a Catholic mass, according to Catholic teachings. Yet Pope John Paul II gave Holy Communion to British Prime Minister Tony Blair in 2004, before he converted from Anglicanism to Catholicism. In Johannesburg, South Africa, President Bill Clinton, a Protestant, received the Holy Eucharist at Queen of the World Church. And Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger gave communion to a minister of the Swiss Reformed Church at Pope John Paul II’s funeral."

My response: All of the above mentioned persons are deeply religious Christians.

Folks,
Spiderman writes this bit of silliness:

"It is thru that stupid ritual that Catholicism was able to fool much of the world and led them to believe that the power is in the BISCUIT and NOT in the word of God, the BIBLE. Keeping them from having the Bible would SEAL their authority over the ignorant people. It is no wonder then that for many centuries, the Bible was inaccessible to the people."

Well, why didn't the protestants just correct them? Oh, that is right: the protestants did not exist until the 16th Century. But, but, but...that means that Protestantism wasn't founded by Christ, Who founded His Church in the First Century; Catholicism was. So, if the Church founded by Christ tells me that the Eucharist is important, I can either believe Christ's Church or some guy calling himself Spiderman. Let's see: Christ's Church or Spiderman? Christ's Church? Spiderman? Hmmm...Christ's Church!!

And Arminius is a Gentleman, in every sense. :-)

Goodnight, Ryan, and remember:

"Beer is God's way of saying He loves us and wants us to be happy." Ben Franklin

Ryan Haber,

Beer at the office? If it's after 5 pm, then what is the problem? 24 cans of beer in a case, 24 hours in a day - it CAN'T be a coincidence!!!

All kidding aside - Wiccan is a Lady, note the capital 'L'.

Good night, and God bless.

Beer? Why am I still at the office?! What the $#%@!

Yes, Ms. Quinn's initial actions aren't entirely incomprehensible, not at all. In fact, in many parishes nothing is said, the advertisement by the bishops about receiving communion is very sensitive and usually very far in the back of the pew-missals. It would be better to put them at front, or at the part of the missal describing Communion. Seems like a no-brainer. Someone mocked about posting signs, but a nicely worded sign isn't a half-bad idea. Since most visitors are guests of somebody specific, it is incumbant upon the host to say something - but that is very hard to do, takes some sensitivity to do sensitively, and can be awkward. Maybe our priests should give us more guidance on the matter of HOW to say such things - not that it is easier for them. They're only human.

People going up to Communion, rail or otherwise, with their arms folded to receive a blessing is becoming a more universal way to avoid causing a traffic jam in the pews. It also has the upshot of making it easier for Catholic indisposed by sin to avoid public embarrassment.

Of course, I've had to warm the bench at Communion time myself more times than I care to admit - it's been good to chasten my enormous ego.

"Well, Lord. Here I sit, again. I screwed up, but please give me the grace at least not to compound the error by going up like I hadn't screwed up. Amen."

Vicky,

Please read a few of the posts if you actually want to contribute something useful to the public forum; we've been over it before several times at this point. I LOVE being closeminded. Of course, I cannot for my life see what being closeminded has to do with having rules. Everyone has rules, everyplace has rules too. Is everything closeminded therefore? That seems like a rather pessimistic thing to say, that having rules is closeminded.

I do, Ms. Willard, appreciate you at least using your name; either a name or a stable alias will do to break down anonymity and a certain "ring and run" mentality. Thank you for it.

Arminius, Wiccan, backatchya - you seem like nice gents (Wiccan, you might actually be a nice gal - I don't know your sex). I would like that beer sometime. Y'all in the DC Metro?

We can talk about spiderwebs. But for now, I think I am gonna get the heck out of dodge... er, my office. G'night.

Wiccan,

My take on this is to go to the rail, in a Catholic mass, if you are so moved to do so. But cross your arms, right over left, and you will receive a blessing. This action on your part is in respect to the rules of hospitality. Talk to a Muslim sometime about hospitality, it is sacred. It was, and I think still is, also among Pagan folk.

Arminius

Arminius: "I have never been to a Catholic mass, but would never dream of coming to the rail, unless I crossed my arms over my chest."

Now that raises a question for me. Years ago a friend and coworker died of cancer. He was very dear to me, and quite plainly the most decent man I have ever met. His funeral was the first Mass I attended, and it was beautiful. I did my best to be respectful, and knew better than to join my friends when they went up to receive the Host. Now I wonder if it would have been appropriate to join them if I had crossed my arms over my chest? This is why I feel some little sympathy for Ms. Quinn; my heart wanted to join them but I couldn't see how to and still show respect. I thought it best to stay in my pew.

The Episcopal Church invites everyone one who is a baptized Christian to receive Holy Communion. I don't kow why the Roman Catholics are so closed minded. Jesus welcomed all who believed; why don't they?

Ryan Haber,

Oh, yes, as to the subject of this thread, long forgotten....

Although I do believe in an open communion, that the Lord's table is welcoming to everyone, I respect the Roman Catholic restrictions. I have never been to a Catholic mass, but would never dream of coming to the rail, unless I crossed my arms over my chest.

Arminius

Yes indeed!! I'll drink to that! ;-)

Ryan Haber,

You Roman Catholics have the right to what you believe. I stand to protect the rights of religion, and the rights to not believe.

You, Ryan, are a very good man.

God bless

Wiccan!

You will know it is heaven when someone thrusts a big glass of Guinness in your hand, followed by a shot of Bushmill's for the other hand! YES!!!

Ryan-

A very courteous reply. I can understand where you're coming from. When CCNL posts something about Paganism, I usually rest my head in my hands and say "You can read the words but you just don't get it!"

Arminius, when we get to the top there had better be Bushmill's there! (Else how will I know it's Heaven?)

Or maybe I'm more tired.

It's not a virtue to sit impassively either. I've only the energy to argue about so many things at once. For now the topic is whether we Catholics (and others, for that matter) have a right to our own things, or whether the whole world gets to dictate to us about what we do as a community.

You're a good man, Arminius.

Ryan Haber,

Well, we differ with Spidey. It is difficult to offend me, but it does happen. Spidey offended me to the core with his sick words about the Holy Eucharist. I cannot, cannot respect anything he says. Anything. He is altogether bad, maybe evil. Definitely sick.

This comes from an extremely liberal Christian. Spidey awoke the Furor Celticus of my ancestors. I know, Ryan, I know, it is not Christian to feel this way. But the anger remains.

I guess you have more compassion than I do.

God bless,

Arminius

One of my favorite quotes on the matter is Flannery O'Connor's. At a dinner party, discussion shifted to the topic at hand. Several of the party were unobservant Catholics, the hostess among them. The hostess spoke about how she had believed in transubstantiation as a youth, but had come to see the Eucharist as a beautiful symbol of Christ's love. At that point, somebody noted that O'Connor had remained quiet and asked for her opinion. Ever the lady, she finished her bite, wiped her mouth, and when all eyes were on her, she said,

"If the Eucharist is just a symbol, then to hell with it,"

and she stood up and took her leave of the party.

I couldn't agree more.

Victoria,

Thanks for the quote. It makes my point, and I liked your question to Prof. Stevens-Arroyo, as to whether he believes his own words, or just believes that nobody else can or has read St. Thomas.

Arminius,

As for Spidey, I am too tired to argue with him about the biscuit. It does interest me that he takes all of the Bible literally except for Jn 6, 1 Cor 11:23ff (and the other institution narratives), and Jn 15.

But I can respect his attitude, in any event. At least he is willing to let us keep our biscuit without wanting to eat it, too! Lolol.

Spidey,

You are a blasphemer, you have no place here until you repent, and persuade us that you have repented.

But you won't, you are too sick.

Wiccan, Well Met Indeed!

Yup, we all gotta get to that top. We will all be pleasantly surprised, I am sure.

Spidey is a case unto himself. In 65 years of life, he is the only person I have accused of blasphemy because of what he said about the Holy Eucharist. He is twisted beyond hope from us, and needs professional help. Deprogramming, actually.

Meet ya at the top!

Arminius

It is thru that stupid ritual that Catholicism was able to fool much of the world and led them to believe that the power is in the BISCUIT and NOT in the word of God, the BIBLE. Keeping them from having the Bible would SEAL their authority over the ignorant people. It is no wonder then that for many centuries, the Bible was inaccessible to the people.

Ignorance by the people of the Bible was the reason why Catholicism was able to act like LITTLE GODS themselves, making RULES and DOGMAS saying that these rules are from God. They can easily DUPE any person once that person believes that there is power in that biscuit when there is really NONE. They have TRANSFORMED the metaphor of Jesus to be an INSTRUMENT to PROPAGATE IGNORANCE.

***

It's not the intention of God or Jesus Christ that people will worship biscuits or treat them as holy. As you know, Christ always speaks in metaphor.

The Bread of Life is always and has always been the Word of God, the Bible.

It's very funny that Catholicism ban the distribution of the Bible in it's long history but worship the biscuit.

Ms. Quinn taking the communion (it's not holy) is like a lost person wanting to take part to a mad ritual and the mad people getting angry because somebody who's not totally mad is taking it.

Let the madness continue, the more you eat the biscuit, the more holy you think you are.

NOBODY GOES TO HEAVEN BECAUSE OF EATING BISCUITS.

Just open the Bible and be filled with it, the true bread of God.

STUPIDITY, STUPIDITY, STUPIDITY. When will stupidity be out of religion?

A qoute from Jose Rizal:

"Oh what blindness!! What Lack Of Undersatnding!!"

" Consider well that kind of religion that they are teaching you. See whether it is the will of the God or according to the teachings of Christ that the poor be succored and those who suffer alleviated. Consider what they are preaching to you, the object of the sermon, what is behind the masses, novenas, rosaries, scapularies, images, miracles, candles, belts, etc., etc.; which they daily keep before your minds; ears and eyes; jostling, shouting, and coaxing, INVESTIGATE whence they came and WHETHER THEY GO and then compare that religion with the pure religion of Christ and SEE whether the PRETENDED OBSERVANCE of the life of Christ does not remind of the fat milk cow or the fattened pig, which is encouraged to grow fat not through love of the animal, but for grossly mercenary motives. "

Wiccan,

Thank you. It is hard to say, but I'll certainly give benefit of the doubt - Terra was trying to relate. At some point, maybe she or I lost track of that and began to equate. Whatever, she meant no harm and gave no offense.

My nerves are rubbed raw because for the life of me I cannot understand people's rush to receive, or defend the reception of the Eucharist, by people who reject what it is. I cannot understand why people rail against us for being exclusive for having something for ourselves (if it were even that petty) - as if the whole world were an amusement park for them.

I had the opportunity, while travelling once to visit an indigenous religious feast. It was syncretized a bit, and at some points the Christianity faded into the indigenous, and at other points the indigenous fades into, or is cloaked in, the Christian. It was fascinating. They didn't mind my presence. They only insisted that no photographs be taken.

"But I like taking pictures! They help me remember?!"

Who would think such a complaint was mature, or even rational? It's their ritual, and they've a right to let visitors in on whatever terms they choose.

When it comes to the Catholic Eucharist, that is exactly the sort of nonsense heard. A couple columnists On Faith had the maturity to say either, "Hey, let them do their thing. It doesn't harm you at all, especially if you are right and the Eucharist is just a symbol to them," or "Well, there's an interesting historical development here, but really, here-and-now, it's their thing."

Most have been surprisingly callous - they would never respond so to the indigenous ceremony I witnessed.

"It's not just YOURS! I want it, and you can't stop me, and it's might right to get in if I want to. So there!"

It's just amazing.

Thank you for your sympathy. My description of the Eucharist, and the Mass, and their meaning, might have been more eloquent, but it was off the cuff, while at work on a Saturday, running from one test to the next, dropping the description and picking it up again, with nerves, as you said, rubbed raw. It has motivated me, when I am rested, to take the same idea and make something better of it.

I'm tired of the whole discussion, but unwilling, while I still breathe, to let the last word be, "Those Catholics are so nasty, always wanting to have their own religion their own way. I don't like how they won't even let me do their thing with them the way I want. They're mean!" Of course, phrased that way, it sounds juvenile. But worded the way some of the commentators, many of whom are very eloquent, have phrase it, it is a veritable invitation for others to join in likewise. It was just a couple years ago that some nut did something of the kind, and brought the sacred host from a Papal Mass home, and then tried to sell it on E-Bay.

That's why we take this whole thing very seriously.

Thanks for understanding. God bless.

Hi, Arminius!

Many paths indeed, and it's not til you get to the top that you can see them all. :-)

I was going to lay into Spidey over the disrespect in his posts, then I told myself that arguing with him is like trying to get water out of a dry well, completely unproductive.

ryan- you speak truly and representative of the church's beliefs regarding the eucharist-

it is according to the church- the actual substance of the body- there are various watered down versions over the years of this belief- but i appreciate your steadfastness in your faith-

you are no hypocrite- and that is refreshing-

in the qur'an it says- we will agree to disagree- you to your religion and me to mine.

it is excellent that you knew that and used it-
peace- and check out stevens-arroyos

Hi, Wiccan,

You are correct - your Simple Feast and our Holy Eucharist are for union with the divine. Any Christian arguments about transubstantiation are immaterial to the general argument.

Ryan Haber is ok, in my book. I don't agree with him on too much, but he presents his arguments with calm and sure words. For that he is to be respected. He ain't no spidey, to be sure! Ryan does, of course, believe that his road is the best - but that is no surprise. In that, he differs from you and me. Many roads.....

Arminius

Ryan Haber,

You have my respect - we agree to disagree. I see the compassion of our risen Lord in your words. Thank you, and God bless.

Many paths....

Arminius

Ryan Harber-

I can tell your nerves have been rubbed raw over this issue, which makes your post explaining the Eucharist even more eloquent. I cannot speak for Terra, but I believe she was doing what I did, trying my best to relate to how you feel about it in terms I can understand. To us Wiccans, the Simple Feast is sacred, as the Eucharist is to you. I believe the purpose of both rites is to become one (commune) with the Divine. Since Wiccans believe that the Divine is immanent (present and part of everything) through the Simple Feast we become One with All. In this way I try to understand and honor a rite that is holy to you, and I hope I have.

Blessed Be.

Arminius,

Thank you for your appreciation. You have mine, as well.

I know that Terra wasn't trying to tell me what "to believe" (as in, what I ought to believe). Rather, what I challenged her, and others, for is telling us what we actually believe (as in, the content of our faith). That is what she did.

"Then again the Catholic Communion is what we call The Simple Feast...to drink of the wine and eat of the grain that are the gifts of the earth...to be One with All. That is what communion means...to have mutual feelings and thoughts...to be One, in Christianity it would be one in Christ."

I may be misreading it; she is perhaps only trying to relate our beliefs to hers. She goes beyond relating them to equating them - tell us that we believe what she and hers believe. This is most explicit at the end of her post:

"Some folks need to know that the rites of their faiths are not the faith...the rites all have deeper meanings but without the connections to the meanings...they are only motions."

You are right, that she and other likeminded folks are very tolerant, very content to live and let live. So am I. The last thing I would do is try to convert or make someone believe what I do. If they ask, I try to answer. If they make a false claim about my religion, I try to clarify. I am not a theologian, nor a cleric of the Catholic Church; I am a layman with a catechism and some basic understanding philosophical and theological training. I try to explain from my own experience, in my own poor words and images.

"The unsaid issue here is that Pagans believe that there are many paths to the truth."

Of course there are! "All roads lead to Rome," but that doesn't mean that everyone is already there, or even headed in the right direction. Lol. It seems a simple distinction to me. As far as I can tell, everyone of good will is on the road to truth. That doesn't mean that everyone's arrived there.

I think the real unstated difference is this: I believe that spiritual matters, however elusive, are as objectively real as material matters (lol, if I can be redundant). Thus spiritual matters are as susceptible to truth claims as material matters, and those truth claims are as true as they accurately describe what they purport to describe. If I say that my car is in my driveway, but it is not, then my claim is false. If it is only half in the driveway, then my claim is partly true, or true to some extent, or true from some perspective; and partly false, or false to some extent or from some perspective.

We all believe this (the principle of noncontradiction) in practical, material matters. Nobody would say, "Well, for you, your car is in the driveway, and for me, your car is on the street." That's nonsense.

Well, if spiritual realities aren't real, then to hell with them. Who needs a bunch of myths. That's what atheists think we've wrapped our brains up in, and if we prattle on about how "God is nice for me, and for you she's mean, and we're both right" we are only giving them evidence that we don't really believe what we say we do, but that it's some kind of game.

Now, I can say, "God is Three-in-One," while a Muslim says, "No. God is just One. No three about God." And rather than try to twist it into "We're both right," or worse, into, "It doesn't really matter," (why then bother?) it is best to say, "Fine. We'll agree to disagree on the point. We're having a BBQ tonight - steaks. Why don't you bring the missus and kids over?" Agreeing to disagree strikes me as a perfectly workable solution. Why the need to keep on trying to explain how we all really believe the same thing deep-down after all? That is patently false - some people believe in widowburning, while I do not. As for whether the beliefs are the same, it might be best to ask the widow.

As for the many paths - of course, again, of course there are many paths to a truth. I might start by believing a room is dark, and then open my eyes and see it is lit. I might start thinking that it always has been dark, and never can be another way, and then find the light switch. In like manner, I might start by believing that widowburning is a satisfactory solution to an economic problem, and then get to meet some very nice widows who I'd not like to see burned. Or rather than meeting nice widows, my dear mother might be widowed, and I might surprise myself by not wanting to see her burned (Mom! If you're reading this - it's just an example. We've got your back!). So there are two different paths to the same moral/spiritual truth: that widowburning is not good.

It is an altogether different proposition to say that whatever one happens to believe about widowburning is true.

*My software test is done - I need to start the next one.*

God bless.

Ryan Haber,

First, let me commend you (again? don't remember) on your very civil and polite posts. And on the fact that you are quite versed in your Roman Catholic religion.

Next, Terra was not trying to tell you what to believe, she was telling you what she believes. I have conversed with her before, and her compatriots, and that is how they are. They are hugely tolerant. I respect that.

The unsaid issue here is that Pagans believe that there are many paths to the truth. I also believe that, even though I claim to be Christian - a long story. I know you will disagree with this, but that does not upset me. Been there, done that. No problem, no bias here.

Nonetheless, I respect your position. I only ask that you respect mine, and Terra's.

Arminius

Sally-

What a wonderful thing you did! You connected with Tim Russert and his survivors on a most personal level.

If this is wrong in God's eyes, what kind of God is he/she? Certainly not compassionate or forgiving!
In such a case, what difference does is make? There'd be no way to please such a fickle God, hence you still might as well do what shows love to your friend and his survivors.

I tend to believe that God IS compassionate - in such a case he/she'd be pleased!

Bless you!

-Mike from North Carolina

The Meaning of the Eucharist, in Brief
--------------------------------------

At Holy Mass, the priest approaches the altar. He has been ordained by a bishop in order to stand in for a bishop, who was himself ordained by a bishop, who was himself ordained by a bishop, who was himself ordained by a bishop, and so on for some nineteen centuries. By a solemn promise of obedience, and usually others including celibacy, he has pledged to give himself unreservedly to the Church as a groom gives himself to his bride, as Christ gave and gives Himself to the Church. When he celebrates the sacraments, makes the divine present in a particularly manifest and objective way, the priest stands in for Jesus Christ who is Himself the Divine, objectively and Manifest. The priests hands have been anointed for this task. He has trained and prepared. He has, most importantly, been ordained, ordered, directed to it.

At Holy Mass, the priest or an assistant reads the Scriptures, the Holy Word of God to the people, as Jesus Christ Himself proclaimed (and is) the Word of God. By means of this Holy Word, we are informed and our hearts and minds are slowly but surely changed. The priest or a deacon in his place then preaches, presenting the Word under another form, contemporizing it for us, helping us learn to apply it. We, the faithful gathered, respond with the Symbol, or Profession, of Faith. We say the clear, concise formula of faith to which we and our forebears have assented for seventeen centuries, and which our forebears' forebears believed implicitly though the questions had not been fully played out. This Creed is our response of trusting faith to the message and Lord whose Word we hear:

"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things seen and unseen; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father: God from God, Light from Light, true God of true God, begotten and not made, one in being with the Father, through whom all things were made. For us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again in glory to judge the living and the dead. His Kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We believe in one baptism for the remission of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."

After making our response of faith, we bring up to the priest of God offerings of bread and wine, fruit of the earth and of the vine, and the work of human hands. The priest then offers them to God as a symbol of our life and work, given over to Him. We give these gifts, not in place of our lives and work, but as signs of our life and work. We give him these things - our life and our work - because "it is right to give Him thanks and praise," for all that He has given us.

In exchange for this humble gifts, God gives us much more. It is then that the priest of God calls the Spirit of God down upon the humble bread and wine. It is then that the priest "puts on Christ" as it were, or maybe better said that Christ puts on him. In any event, he now acts in the person of Jesus Christ - not on behalf of Him, but mystically united to Him, mystically Him. The priest, in the person of Jesus Christ, says the words, those fateful words, "Take and eat: this is my body which is given for you," and "Take and drink: this is my blood of the New Covenant for the forgiveness of sins, do this in memory of me," those words by which our Blessed Lord and Savior Jesus Christ turned ordinary bread and wine into His very, true Body and Blood so that we could literally eat what he would do for us: give up His life on the Cross, and then take it up again from the tomb. By so instituting this Holiest Sacrament, Christ ordained that we might share in His sacrifice and its effects, the forgiveness of sin and a share in His eternal life of perfect joy. The Body that we must eat (Jn 6) and to which we must be united (Jn 15) to attain his joy and eternal life is given over FOR US on the Cross and is given TO US on the Altar of the Lord's Table. When the priest has finished the words, there is no more bread or wine left on the altar. Only the appearances of bread and wine remain. The reality of those gifts has been exchanged. We have given God bread and wine as signs of life and blood, sweat and tears; He has given us his very life, blood, sweat and tears. What a wonderful exchange!

The priest then makes His Communion - his act of unification through the Blessed Sacrament, eating the Body and drinking the Blood of our Blessed Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, just as he commanded. He distributes these precious gifts to his assistants, and then with them exits the sanctuary of the altar to share those gifts with the faithful gathered.

Those of us, and I am not in this number every day or week, who believe that Creed in unison with the Church, who have lived the lifestyle commended to us by our Lord, and who are commited to the Church itself then approach the altar. Kneeling or standing, into our hands as little unworthy thrones, or into our mouths directly, the priest or his assistant places the Sacred Host, the Sacrificial and Resurrected Victim. We each of us consume our Lord and God, who has given himself freely to us for our life, and for the life of the world. We return to our seats and pray.

The priest cleans and reorders the altar, removing the various implements used in the sacrifice. He carefully cleans the chalice that held our Lord's Blood. He wipes the plate that upon which he held forth our Lord's precious Body. He refolds the cloths, so much like little burial shrouds, like little baptismal garments, that covered the altar of sacrifice.

The priest of God gives the final blessing to the people, and then instructs them to go out and, strengthened by the One whose Body they have received into their own bodies, love and serve the Lord and their neighbors.

As we draw closer to Jesus Christ, through daily seeking to conform our will unto His, through learning to behave as He did, through confessing our failures and supporting each other to begin anew, through studying His Word and Life, through our shared life of feasts and fasts, of prayer and charity - we each also draw closer to each other. In some places, this union, this communion, is invisible to the naked eye. In other places, any stranger walking into the church will notice immediately and say, "See how they love one another?"

Anyone who shares in our life and our worship is welcome to by all the rest, wherever in the world he may go, in our worship of God almighty. There are well over one billion men, women, and children in our communion. Because we want to encourage other people to join us fully, we invite them in part way - to hear God's word and to respond in faith to it. Those who do hear and do desire to join into our communion seek and are given systematic instruction on our faith, our way of life, and our means of worship. At the vigil of Easter, the night before the great high feast of our faith, the evening of the day commemorates the Resurrection of the fully human and fully divine Son of God from the dead, those persons profess their faith, are baptised (if they have not yet been by other Christians), confirmed, and then - fully united to us in faith and lifestyle - are fully united to us in worship, in the noblest act of which a person is capable - receiving into his or her body the Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, to more perfectly consummate union with him and with the brethren.

That, my friend, is something of the meaning of the Eucharist to us Catholics. Not all are aware of it. When I receive my Holy Communion each morning, a few minutes before 7 a.m., I am not sure I am aware of it. That doesn't make it any less so, just as eating a jelly doughnut mindlessly doesn't make it any less a jelly doughnut. A jelly doughnut might symbolize something, but it is first and foremost a jelly doughnut.

We might be wrong, wacky, nutty, cranky, rules-oriented, fascist, socialist, stupid, brainwashed, whatever. No matter. We assert the above statements as fact - not as mere preferences, feelings, or symbols. We may be wrong, what looks like bread might be just that - mere bread. But our assertion is emphatically NOT that it symbolizes something else, but that it IS something else. It is rather than deny these beliefs that hundreds have given their lives in imitation of our Lord.

We do not ask guests among us to believe what we do, or like that we do believe it, or care that we do believe it. We only ask them to respect that we believe these things, and if they do not, to act with integrity accordingly. For our part, it would be better if we explained these things more clearly. Most of our in-church prayer books contain a somewhat convoluted statement as to who should receive Communion and who not. But we are working on being both more inviting, and more clear about exactly to what we are inviting. Thank you for your patience with us, your slovenly and lame Christian neighbors.

Moronis, Gabriels, magic underwear, golden/stone tablets, talking snakes, prophets i.e. forturne tellers, global floods, black stones, scapulars, rosaries, indulgences, bloody wafers and wine, ascensions, assumptions, business cults fronting as religions, "hijabing" , etc. have no place in modern society.

Terra Gazelle,

You wrote: "Then again the Catholic Communion is what we call The Simple Feast...to drink of the wine and eat of the grain that are the gifts of the earth...to be One with All."

Not at all. Because two rituals have similar material and actions does not mean that they are the same, much less that they means the same to their respective participants.

"That is what communion means...to have mutual feelings and thoughts...to be One, in Christianity it would be one in Christ."

Not for Catholics, that's not what it is or means. If I may make so bold, you might be well advised to explain your own religion to people, and let them explain theirs. You'll make fewer mistakes.

"Some folks need to know that the rites of their faiths are not the faith..."

Again, you are wrong on exactly this point. Catholics believe that the Eucharist is really and truly the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ Crucified and Resurrected, lacking nothing essential to his personhood; that it is not at all bread or wine left, but only the appearances of bread and wine. That is a KEY and CENTRAL part of our faith.

To everyone else out there that isn't Catholic but knows all about our religion:

Please do not tell us Catholics what our faith is, or attempt to tell us how we are missing our own "deeper meaning." You have no idea. Maybe you used to be a former Catholic, fine, everyone on the board seems to have been a former Catholic or gone into 50 Catholic churches, or known a Catholic priest, or met a Catholic, or something else that makes them an expert in the Catholic religion, and know much more about it then "all the Catholics [they] know." Fine. The point is, you are not now Catholic, and so the conversation really has little to do with you; if you don't know that, you could at least know what you are talking about when you get involved in discussions about our religion.

It seems like common sense, common courtesy, or a common desire not to appear stupid - one of the three - would prompt as much restraint.

Coming from this as a Pagan I have been going back and forth over it.

At one point I thought of our open circles and how others would just stand respectful as we celebrated and explained to them what was going on...

Then again the Catholic Communion is what we call The Simple Feast...to drink of the wine and eat of the grain that are the gifts of the earth...to be One with All.

That is what communion means...to have mutual feelings and thoughts...to be One, in Christianity it would be one in Christ.

I think that Ms. Quinn's heart and spirit called for her to partake of the wafer and wine in the name of her friend...and their was with her. So what she did was right...

Some folks need to know that the rites of their faiths are not the faith...the rites all have deeper meanings but without the connections to the meanings...they are only motions.

Many Blessings,
terra

Yes, Sally, you did indeed open "an extremely important conversation." Thank you.

And thank you for an obvious courtesy I've never violated. You "would not have taken Communion" if there had been any (spoken or) written stricture limiting particiation to Roman Catholics.

Mary "Perhaps that IS the lesson for you to learn from your own social and religious faux pas.

Perhaps you've learned that humility is a GOOD thing, Sally, and it will change who you were previously to who you should have been all along.

As you sow, Sally, so shall you reap."

Who are you to determine who should be taught a lesson?? It seems to me that the one being arrogant is the one deeming judgment which is playing God.

A word of caution, you do reap what you sow........so what fields have you planted over the years that you a now reaping s "harvest" of??

Not so nice of a feeling when it comes back to you in the same way that you judged other is it??

Your post is evident that you have issues with revenge and unforgiveness. Having said that I imagine that your fields of reaping what you sow are "plentiful."

Ms. Quinn,

Is your mind open enough to accept the possibility that Jesus is actually physically present in a consecrated communion host?

Dear Liberal Catholic,

I have some familiarity with the Catholic doctrine, having been born into a loving Catholic family. I was for many years an alter boy and even considered, for a short while, the notion of becoming a priest.

As I grew-up and experienced more of the world, the more I began to realize that the Catholic "answers" to life's mysteries and big questions were only believable if one suspended rational, evidence based inquiry and simply chose to believe; in the face of increasingly overwhelming logical, scientific, and historical evidence to the contrary. Not only did I find the various "rules" about married priests, women's positions (or lack of) within the church wrong, I found the basic beliefs in miracles and saints and resurrections etc. to be nothing more than wishful thinking and/or simplistic ancient explanations based upon a view of the world that the authors had 2,000+ years ago.

You describe yourself as a Liberal Catholic, I've personally found much more fulfillment as a 'Liberated Catholic' and an Atheist. It is tough for anyone brought up in a religious family or society to have the courage to openly look around, but there is much to be gained by doing so.

Best wishes

I don't know, Sally.

Maybe it's more of a social thing: much like you and Broder said about a certain political couple:

"It wasn't their place. They came in and wrecked the place."

It wasn't your place, Sally. You disrespected the establishment for your own emotional needs.

For a woman who has spent decades assuming she guards the "entry gate to social Washington," who has written many articles trashing other human beings for small, petty things you found offensive but never offered acceptance or forgiveness for others who didn't fit YOUR social modes, morphing into what we call a "social snot," maybe you've finally had a chance to see yourself as others saw you, during those arrogant years of yours.

Perhaps you should receive the same kindness and forgiveness and understanding as you gave others over those decades.

Perhaps that IS the lesson for you to learn from your own social and religious faux pas.

Perhaps you've learned that humility is a GOOD thing, Sally, and it will change who you were previously to who you should have been all along.

As you sow, Sally, so shall you reap.

"[when "i" was a Naive Highly-Energetic lad & under 10, "i" found myself, out of 'Guilt' "i" guess for making Fun at a 'FATSO' Catholic Italian/Irish Girl , named IRENE {may ECLATi preserve & Protect Her & Family always} in front of all HUE{mates} , classmates in my School]

I was standing in a Catholic Church , located a block from school named "Our Lady of Solace" @ St. Pauls Church, West 17th St., Coney island, N.Y. , before a Priest."

No one should be labeled from actions that they did based on a cause "cause and effect" situation.

It is those that willfully do wrong. Feel no shame JJ.

Phillip C. Smith, Ph.D. wrote " All need to obtain a more accurate understanding of and show appropriate respect for the beliefs and practices of other religions, even of those who profess no faith in God. "

There are lots of ideas that are crazy and just one of the many is Islam's "death to infidels". You can trace back almost all of the troubles in this world coming from false religions and atheism.

Fools cannot discern what is right and wrong. Mr. Smith, a Ph.D holder, and for all the education get got, still don't know that education is a tool to separate falacy from facts and igorance from truth. Unless of course he's majoring in LIES LIKE EVOLUTION.

Whether in religion or in "sciences", it seems that stupidity rules.

As Esquire magazine used to say in derision: Why is this person laughing?

Phillip C. Smith, Ph.D. wrote " All need to obtain a more accurate understanding of and show appropriate respect for the beliefs and practices of other religions, even of those who profess no faith in God. "

There are lots of ideas that are crazy and just one of the many is Islam's "death to infidels". You can trace back almost all of the troubles in this world coming from false religions and atheism.

Fools cannot discern what is right and wrong. Mr. Smith, a Ph.D holder, and for all the education get got, still don't know that education is a tool to separate falacy from facts and igorance from truth. Unless of course he's majoring in LIES LIKE EVOLUTION.

Whether in religion or in "sciences", it seems that stupidity rules.

Phillip C Smith PhD, since you are not a Catholic, maybe you should let the Catholic clergy decide whether receiving Communion was the best way for an agnostic to honor a friend, no matter how well meaning it was. Receiving Communion, a deeply significant religious ritual in the Catholic Church, is about receiving Jesus Christ, not about honoring friends. It doesn't take much reflection to know the difference. You are free to act anyway in YOUR Church, but do have the respect that is due to other religious practices. Sally has not been punished by anyone in the Catholic Church, merely reminded it was not the right thing to do. Some Catholics have overreacted, which is out of place. But that is different to what you are suggesting, namely it was right for Sally to do it.

A true Christian is always respectful of others' beliefs and practices. If it is not offensive to the leaders of the Roman Catholic Church for people not of their faith to take communion, then it is alright if Sally or anyone else wishes to do so.

All need to obtain a more accurate understanding of and show appropriate respect for the beliefs and practices of other religions, even of those who profess no faith in God. Sally did a good thing in honoring Tim Russert in this way.

Phillip C. Smith

Arguing over crackers. Insanity.

Ceflynline wrote: "At the first Eucharist there wasn't a single Catholic present, first, because the birth of the Church was still fifty three days away, and second because the Church didn't begin to understand the Eucharist for a while after that, and didn't become"Catholic" for some time after that. The only souls present for the First Eucharist were observant, ritually clean, Jews."

I can't imagine that Jesus himself would believe that he is more present in the bread and wine than anywhere else. He was an intelligent man, he didn't mean it literally or mystically when he said this was his flesh and this was his blood. How can sensible, grown-up people even begin to believe that?

Furthermore, he always put first things first, and the first thing was never ever the doctrine, quite the opposite. That's the very reason he came forward, to change the fundamentalism of his own religion.

Spiderman2, you once posted as Holy Cow didn't you? The same anti-Catholic rants, same quotation of Jose Rizal who lived and died a Catholic, even if he didn't accept all of the dogmas.

Why don't you tell the bloggers the name of the television Church you belong to?

It's not the intention of God or Jesus Christ that people will worship biscuits or treat them as holy. As you know, Christ always speaks in metaphor.

The Bread of Life is always and has always been the Word of God, the Bible.

It's very funny that Catholicism ban the distribution of the Bibles in it's long history but worship the biscuit.

Ms. Quinn taking the communion (it's not holy) is like a lost person wanting to take part to a mad ritual and the mad people getting angry because somebody who's not totally mad is taking it.

Let the madness continue, the more you eat the biscuit, the more holy you think you are.

NOBODY GOES TO HEAVEN BECAUSE OF EATING BISCUITS.

Just open the Bible and be filled with it, the true bread of God.

STUPIDITY, STUPIDITY, STUPIDITY. When will stupidity be out of religion?

****

A qoute from Jose Rizal:

"Oh what blindness!! What Lack Of Undersatnding!!"

" Consider well that kind of religion that they are teaching you. See whether it is the will of the God or according to the teachings of Christ that the poor be succored and those who suffer alleviated. Consider what they are preaching to you, the object of the sermon, what is behind the masses, novenas, rosaries, scapularies, images, miracles, candles, belts, etc., etc.; which they daily keep before your minds; ears and eyes; jostling, shouting, and coaxing, INVESTIGATE whence they came and WHETHER THEY GO and then compare that religion with the pure religion of Christ and SEE whether the PRETENDED OBSERVANCE of the life of Christ does not remind of the fat milk cow or the fattened pig, which is encouraged to grow fat not through love of the animal, but for grossly mercenary motives. "

http://emanila.com/philippines/2008/04/18/to-the-young-women-of-malolos/

Yes, I am a liberal Catholic -- and I'm all for breaking "rules" -- women priests, married priests, I believe in all of that.

But let's be clear. This is not about a rule -- which seems to be misunderstood as non-Catholics can't receive communion. Nor is it about religious dialogue. It's about what Catholic's believe, what that belief means, and respecting that. We believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. That's a lot to swallow (pardon the pun) but it's essential & the ramifications for what is going on in Communion are huge. Let's not trivialize it as simply breaking a "rule" -- like no meat on Friday during lent. It's not an optional belief for us but one of the very few things that really truly constitute what it means to be Catholic. Through ignorance or disregard, Ms. Quinn stepped all over that. She's been berated, criticized and damned. Yet Christ still is present in the Eucharist, still has secured our salvation, still loves us. Hopefully she and others are more educated about our belief -- so let's move on!

This blog really illustrates the nature and invidious consequences of organized religion. Most of the posts here are offering their judgment and nuanced interpretation of the "rules" of, in this case the Catholic, organized religion.

Bottom line - no one was hurt, an arbitrary rule may have been breached, probably by a well intentioned act, and a local storm of 350+ blogs, mostly of outrage, are created.

Isn't religion and the divisive interpretation of it's man-made rules such a great benefit to mankind? It brings so much love to the world!

Is there an icon to represent schrathing ones head in ,not confusion, but consideration? I could sure use one.

At the first Eucharist there wasn't a single Catholic present, first, because the birth of the Church was still fifty three days away, and second because the Church didn't begin to understand the Eucharist for a while after that, and didn't become"Catholic" for some time after that. The only souls present for the First Eucharist were observant, ritually clean, Jews. (Judas departure, when Jesus said "You are clean, but not all" might have simply been taken by the disciples that he had inadvertently incurred ritual uncleanliness, and could, therefore, not partake of the passover.)

Only over time and meditation did the Church custom of meeting for the "Breaking of the bread" become understood as the sacrament it is, and for two millenia we have been refining our understanding of its mystery. Our understanding of it becomes wider, broader, and deeper, and grows even in the umber of its dimensions, and yet never gets close to its full meaning.

Perhaps MS Quinn's curiosity, at Tim Russert's funeral, is like the call of Saul, "Why do you kick against the goad?"

If she has begun to feel the call to the Lord's table, and is beginning to understand what it is she knows of the Church then perhaps instead of scolding her for not being one of the club, we should be offering to teach her that it is when we are willing members of the Church, Catholic, Local, parish, and family, when the semblance of a meal at, and in, our Father's House, with the rest of the family, and the customs and traditions of the family make her comfortable, she will truly understand what it means to go to communion.

It IS possible to inspect the Church with careful intellectual rigor, and find a philosophically and mathematically rigorous beauty to its existence that suggests the wonders of the world to come. If it takes her going to communion at a friends funeral to help her in her journey to that understanding, why that is just what communion should do for all of us.

Pax et Bonum.

As the 300-something poster, I doubt mine will be read by Ms. Quinn or anyone else but here goes. I don't question your motives -- you say it was to honor him, fine. But you don't honor someone by violating the tenets of their faith. The Eucharist is the heart & soul of the Catholic church in away that those who do not believe in transubstantiation will never understand. We aren't asking you to. But you should hvae respected the teachings & beliefs your friend so faithly adhered to by honoring them, not by violating them. It was at best bad manners and disrespectful even if you didn't intend it that way. And I'm sorry, you are smart enough to have known that.

I agree that if an open dialogue between differing faiths is to be established, it first requires us to study and learn about each other, what we believe, why, etc. There must also be respect for what others believe. It doesn't mean we have to agree with or accept differing beliefs, but we do have to respect their right, their free choice, to believe as they do. We must also respect their customs.

Holy Communion is the heart of the Catholic faith. It's the source of everything for Catholics. For those who don't believe as we do, especially with regard to the Eucharist, we simply ask for the same respect that we would be obligated to show if we were visiting a non-Catholic church. We ask that they do not receive the Eucharist.

If the Pope or other high clergy deems a circumstance as extraordinary and allows a non-Catholic to receive Communion, I leave that to their judgment, as there must be a reason why they allowed it. Under ordinary situations, like weddings, funerals, and the Mass, if you are not Catholic, please do not partake. You cause a serious harm to yourself if you do. We're just asking for basic respect.

I agree that if an open dialogue between differing faiths is to be established, it first requires us to study and learn about each other, what we believe, why, etc. There must also be respect for what others believe. It doesn't mean we have to agree with or accept differing beliefs, but we do have to respect their right, their free choice, to believe as they do. We must also respect their customs.

Holy Communion is the heart of the Catholic faith. It's the source of everything for Catholics. For those who don't believe as we do, especially with regard to the Eucharist, we simply ask for the same respect that we would be obligated to show if we were visiting a non-Catholic church. We ask that they do not receive the Eucharist.

If the Pope or other high clergy deems a circumstance as extraordinary and allows a non-Catholic to receive Communion, I leave that to their judgment, as there must be a reason why they allowed it. Under ordinary situations, like weddings, funerals, and the Mass, if you are not Catholic, please do not partake. You cause a serious harm to yourself if you do. We're just asking for basic respect.

Sorry - that should of course be INcomprehensible.
(It's the middle of the night in the corner of the world where I live!)

This is a non-issue. It's comprehensible to me how immense churches and communities and hierarchies and a maze of rules can be built around a man who preached essence and simplicity, and who said: "No one of you be the others' rabbi".

Sally meant no harm, and it's all in your head anyway.

CCNL

To clarify once again:

I have attended a number of Catholic Churches with a number of friends over a period of 20 years.

On a few occaisions, I have been told by my host that I should remain seated and not take communion. Other times, I assume they think I should already know not to go up, so I don't. No Catholic has ever invited me to take Commnion and I never have.

I also have never stayed until the end of a Catholic Mass, because every single person who has ever invited me to Catholic Mass, without any exceptions, has always returned to the pew where I was seated after, themselves taking communion, and then led me out of the church. There is a kind of flow to the way it happens, so that people can leave at that point without causing a disruption.

Here is what the catechism says about mortal sin:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

when you took communion, you took it to validate the bond with your friend, communion in the Catholic chuch also means to receive grace from God (or his son, Jesus Christ).

Mercy, how can taking communion to honor a friend and get grace from above be bad.

Sounds pretty christian to me...perhaps the rules should be refined and some of Sally's critics should look in the mirror.

and maybe our energies could be better spent in ending poverty and not worrying who said amen

Poor Sally! What torments will Jesus inflict on her after she dies! I shudder to think.

"I find it telling that aside from a few, most of the postings here by non-Catholics have a distinct odor of hatefulness about them toward the Roman Catholic faith. Anti-Catholicism is truly the last acceptable bias. No one is asking you to "join up". There are some troubled souls posting here, who seem incapable of disagreeing with the Catholic viewpoint without crude and insulting remarks."

I am a non-Christian. I have enormous respect for the Church of Rome. I am a scientist, and a theist, and Rome has a much better record regarding science than almost any other religious group. God bless the Catholic Church!

Sally:

You are probably the most pretentious, self-absorbed person I've ever encountered. It is not all about you! You knew the rules and yet "you" wanted to feel closer to Tim. You really are something else!

I was married in a Catholic church. I had the marriage ceremony without the Mass, because of my husband's many devout Protestant relatives, who would have been excluded. This seemed to me then and now a most unfriendly ans un-Christian posture. I'm glad Sally took communion, and her motives seem far purer to m than those of the average Catholic on a Sunday morning.

After years of struggling I now have no church at all. After 9/11 I began to feel like all forms of orthodox ( small "o"; the Orthodox churches are actually less hateful than many) religion are mainly tools to promote intolerance and hatred in the world, and although there certainly are a few saintly religious people, I didn't encounter very many in church. I don't know who will bury me when I die, and I miss singing in the choir, but otherwise I prefer to pursue my own spiritual path. Reading the hateful spewings on this blog certainly reinforces my decision.

Patrick Burwell writes:

"without Yahweh's free will offer, which you must receive in the manner in which He says is the only way to receive it, you cannot be rescued..."

Er...you don't see any contradiction in that statement, Patrick?

"Free" will is compatible with "must receive in the manner in which He says" how? Exercise of one's "free" will in a manner unacceptable to Yahweh is an eternal death sentence, ergo Yahweh's "offer" is legitimate...how?

"Those who marry outside of their faith are not supposed to take Communion, but Rudy Giuliani did..."

That is incorrect. A Catholic may marry a non-Catholic (such a union is regarded as sacramental) and even a non-Christian (this marriage, though a legal marriage, is not regarded as a sacrament). One simply needs the proper, easily-gotten dispensation. My understanding is that Mr. Giuliani has been asked to refrain from communion not in light of the religion of his spouse, but due to the fact that she is not regarded as his spouse, i.e., he is presumed (unless and until he receives an annulment) to be married to someone else and, therefore, an adulterer.

Allowing persons who have questions about faith the freedom to explore is one of the core functions of the church. That is what Jesus did and we are to do Jesus's work. Ms. Quinn, if you would like to experience the Church of the Brethren Love Feast (feetwashing, Agape meal, communion), you would be welcome at most Brethren congregations.

Daniel in the Lions Den,

And again were or were you not "herded out" of a Catholic Mass before Communion???

Candide - right you are. Archie would no doubt say, 'What the crap? No atheists? Who's runnin' this show??' You can't argue with Archie.

"looking for markers from all faith traditions which touch me in a spiritual way"

Sally, what happens when you have an open mind? Your brains fall out! :)
Seriously though, your above statement worries me immensely. Some of man's religions may allow for the buffet approach but Christianity does not. Indeed Christianity is the one religion that says of itself that it is the only way to God and that God Himself is the One who made the only way to be made right with Him.
In other words, without Yahweh's free will offer, which you must receive in the manner in which He says is the only way to receive it, you cannot be rescued; You cannot be in His presence by any other means.
There is a simple test, straight from the Bible, to determine where you are and what you must do to be saved from your right Judgment of Hell and the Eternal Lake of Fire.
http://TheGoodPersonTest.com
Sally, there is no amount of wishful thinking that will change the Reality that you shall be judged at your death, or at the Judgment Day (whichever comes first) by Jesus (Yahshua is actually His name), with the Standard that His Father Yahweh has set, should you not repent of (turn away from) your Law violations (there's that Standard again) and entrust yourself to the Care and Lordship of Jesus now, in this life.
To put it simply, Jesus said He is the Only Way, He is the Only Life and He is the Only Truth.

Patrick J Burwell/OnlyJesusSaves.com+

I have more confidence in the Federal Reserve Board. We need more Jews sitting on the Supreme Court - one is not nearly enough. Now, what was terrible about that statement?

So much for the pious idiots posting here...

One need only take a few steps back from this ridiculous discussion of the rite of communion to gain a perspective on the absolute lunacy and fantasy that feeds the mumbo-jumbo world of the religious.

I guess these papists want to burn Quinn at the stake. Bill Donohue can get the wood and Pat Buchanan the matches.

you made me think..... if people are looking for respect for themselves or thier religion.. it would seem that it should come like respect comes to the rest of the world and its people....it is earned whenit is present.. if it is not then the person or the group or the religious body might.... i say mite.... have the need for self examinatin and see if they are upholding all the tenants and decrees of the the one they actually represent or in some cases pretend to represent....i wonder who christ himself ever denied salvation and prayer with.... paul became a disiple.. and peter denied christ 3 times while he was being crucified, so who was the better servant.. i don't know do you...if one belives the accuracy of historical paintings which where actually commissioned by the catholic church then caravaggeeio painted the calling of st mathew in a tavern and mattew was a tax collector another not so prime human,.. and the artist was a homosexual mudererer if one can believe history who was pardoned by the church to do pretty icons paintings and relicts of spirituality ... which oh by the way may be considered by somepeople to be actually violating Gods ten commandments. who are theswe men who decide who can take Jesus's..communion... let us examine these great...humans.... humans....humans...no mater how many times you say it they are not God or Christ

"Perhaps we should be more concerned with 5 Catholics on the Supreme Court?"

What a bigots on here - however, this is a common sentiment expressed in public with out reservation.

How about this one: Perhaps we should be more concerned with the 5 Jews on the Federal Reserve Board.

Oh course, both are awful statement.

What idiots on here!

Rachel Aleria:

"The Church has these rules set for a reason, if you don't like it, then get out of the religion."

Do you think that this is official position of the Catholic Church? Do you think that Preists should make this announcement at every mass? Does the Pope say this?

I am not sure.

I would not feel comfortable, as a non-Catholic, exploiting the confusion that I see in Catholics, to tell them to quit their church. Yet, you a Catholic, do it casually, and without much thought for the implications, of sending more and more people away from the church.

One thing that a Catholic such as yourself cannot comprehend is the nature of belief, which is an expression of an "inner-will" which is beyond the control of any exterior person, and that, even we, ourselves, cannot cotrol. Such an inner will causes us each to believe as we do, and the Catholic Church MUST change to accept this, or it will die out.

Perhaps we should be more concerned with 5 Catholics on the Supreme Court?

Hopefully they can separate the magical from the mundane for all of our sakes!

Where the law is concerned, all that matters are 'just the facts, ma'am' - as Sgt. Joe Friday used to say.

I have noticed quite a few problems on when one can receive and when one cannot, therefore I'm posting what the Church teaches:

1. You can only NOT receive the Eucharist if you are in a state of Mortal Sin (this can be purposely missing Mass to, as Paul C said, premeditated murder.)

A Mortal Sin is any sin that places your soul in grave danger of going to Hell if you died at this very moment.

2. Not everyone that goes to Mass has to go to Confession first. It is recommended, but again, you only HAVE to go to Confession if you are in a state of Mortal Sin.

3. Some people go to Confession on Saturday and then go to Mass on Sunday (that's what I'm doing this weekend). So again, just because YOU don't see them in the confessionals, doesn't mean people aren't going.

4. Just because you don't agree with the Church's teachings, doesn't make you get to decide what is allowable and what isn't. The Church has these rules set for a reason, if you don't like it, then get out of the religion.

The atonement was intended for all who believe and accept. God, not wanting that any should perish, extends the opportunity to accept the solitary, substitutionary, act of forward-casting atonement to all. One extension is found in the cup and the bread (forecast in Genesis when Joseph tricked his brothers by hiding his cup inside a bag of grain as incomplete or inchoate examples of the final supper), yes, which is available to all.

That anyone would accept it with an "open mind" after Mr. Russert personally expressed the deep significance of the symbolism/transubstantiation- and they fully understood the explanation- leaves us with only one conclusion.

It seems that members of the Taliban have infiltrated into the readers of this blog. People are really foaming and frothing -- "OF WHITH YOUR HEAD" seems to be the message. I am soooooo glad that I am not one of you. Live and let live.

I posted an earlier comment, but I just wanted to drop back in to say that I'm really disappointed by all the hatred and intolerance that have been put forth in these comments, especially from my fellow Christians. The specific teachings of various Christian faiths may differ, but we are all called to be people of love, tolerance, forgiveness, and especially humility, as Christ was. Never let your faith - nor your religious affiliation - become something you use to pat yourself on the back. I can't deny agreeing with many of you that Sally made a mistake by participating in the Holy Eucharist without the study, preparation, catechism, etc., that are prerequisites to receiving the body and blood. But she's not a bad person. There are no bad people. Only bad choices. How many of the commentators who've used this forum to spew hateful vitriol at Ms. Quinn have ever made a bad choice? How many of us have had our bad choice cruelly punished by unsympathetic, unloving observers? There can be absolutely no doubt that Christ would embrace Ms. Quinn, as he did the tax-collectors, adulterers, and even his executioners - people who were guilty of sins far greater than paying misguided tribute to a departed loved one by participating in the Eucharist without proper preparation. Christ himself said (I'm paraphrasing here - forgive me) that he came not for the righteous, but for the sinners, the lowly, the outcast. He is with Ms. Quinn - not because she is perfect, but precisely because she is imperfect.

And I suppose that means he's with the rest of us as well, because by our intolerance, our hatred, and our choice to uncharitably judge Ms. Quinn's behavior, we have surely marked ourselves as the prideful sinners we are.

E Favorite

You said:

"The obvious answer to the problem of unworthy people taking communion is a big sign in the vestibule of every catholic church warning them against taking communion."

I have thought of that. It is logical. Not just a sign, but posted rules, and also having the priest say it out loud in words. Or else, having some way to check people at the door, and having them sit in some sort of "quarantine" room with closed circuit TV.

BUT!!!

They don't want to do that. The Catholic heirarchy has enough sense to know that such Dranconian measures would not look good at all, and would only makes things EVEN worse. It is just too rude, harsh, and overall, unfriendly.

So, they are stuck, aren't they? This is one of many, many Catholic confusions. They can't do this, and they can't do that. The organizaton and system of belief makes for emotional and intellectual gridlock, every which way you examine things.

Every Catholic that I know is in sort of distress over their religion. That alone, sends a signal to me, a non-Catholic, about what is happening in Catholicism.

Anyway, all of this religious arguing over a dead man's corpse does sort of get ones mind off of the awful fearfulness of death, and that is what religion is supposed to do, isn't it?

Dear Sally,
When you go to Holy Communion, you reply "Amen" to the priest's words. That "amen" has to be truthful and it means that you believe in all that the Catholic Church teaches,and want to be part of her. To say "amen" and not mean it, is to lie. I think we can agree that no one should lie, and Tim certainly would not want you to lie. Obviously you did not understand the implications of this when you approached the Blessed Sacrament.
Nonetheless, you have really received Christ--body, blood, soul, and divinity--and my prayer is that it will bear fruit in your soul despite the mistake. I bet your life will never be the same.
Holy Communion is not something we receive because we are such great people. It is Christ's divine remedy for our weakness; the Catholic Church is Christ's divine remedy for our human weakness. Christ acts directly on our soul in every sacrament. Still, we do what we can to respond to God's assistance and that is why Catholics who understand, do not receive when they are aware of unconfessed grave sin.
Study it more fully and you may just come to believe and want to be in communion with the Catholic Church by joining. Then your Holy Communion will be truth incarnate.

If you are looking for meaning in your life then look within, not outward for markers from various "faith traditions." The meaning of life is to be found after directly facing our eventual, certain, and perhaps imminent death, after experiencing the existential panic and anguish this fact exposes within us. The meaning of Communion is that we need no longer fear passing out of existence when we die. That is the meaning of the Body of Christ - immortality. This is what you affirm when you take communion. It doesn't have anything to do with Tim Russert.

Apparently Ms Quinn is not aware of the danger she is in. In I Corinthians 11, the oldest biblical text on holy communion:

Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

" A mortal sin is one where a person purposely and knowingly commits a sin that separates them from God. (Premeditated murder is a good example)."

What, missing Mass doesn't count any more as a mortal sin? What happened to all those Catholics who died before the change-over. Are they in Hell?

Daniel itld - Whew -- glad to hear you're interacting with kind-spirited Catholics too.

Well, laws are made to be broken and especially religious laws. Catholics by the boatload either break their own religious laws or simply fail to observe them, on a regular basis.

The only thing this article has done is give the ultra-pious among Catholic posters the opportunity to blow off steam about how indignant they are at getting dissed at the communion rail.

In the cosmic scheme of things, there are more important issues and with much greater import.

The mythology of religion will continue to stand the test of time - it's comfort food for the soul!

Imagine a child's game where Team Roman says to Team Secular: "Don't step over that line". Team Roman owns the territory on its side of the line.

A member of Team Secular steps over the line despite Team Roman's admonition.

Since Team Roman owns its territory, it's offensive for anyone from Team Secular to step on it against the wishes of the Romans.

But to the cosmic universe it makes not the slightest difference whether the step took place or not.

The same is true for a non-Catholic's taking Roman communion: offensive but insignificant.

It is difficult to get past the fact that Ms. Quinn knew beforehand that as a non-Catholic she should not have taken Communion. The myriad of exceptions that she cites simply do not diminish her lack personal responsibility in this matter. Less that WWJD, it should have been "What would Tim Russert do?" Tim Russert was known to be, especially by those who knew him well, a passionately devout Catholic. There is no doubt in my mind that if Ms. Quinn and Mr. Russert were both attending the funeral mass of someone else, Mr. Russert would have gently whispered in her ear: "Sister Sal, this is one receiving line you cannot join" and then with a wink adding "Membership has its privileges!".

While it seems clear that Ms. Quinn simply disregarded what she likely knew to be correct - for reasons ultimately known only to her. It is also clear she did not do it out of intentional disrespect. Fortunately the remedy is equally clear Ms. Quinn. Cast aside these torturous explanations/justifications, and apologize. A simple, unadorned, without a word of qualification (see "for those who I may have offended" as a bad example) apology.

By the way, I am a non-Catholic married to a Catholic. I manage to go to a handful of Masses each year, sadly many of them funeral Masses. I remember quite well the first time I heard that I was not welcome to partake in Communion. It was an unsettling feeling that I has never left me, and since that very first time, I have never forgotten my "guest in someone else's home" responsibility to refrain.

"In a 2005 poll of 1,260 self-identified adult Catholics conducted by the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate, 42 percent said they never went to confession and 32 percent went less than once a year. Just 14 percent made the once-yearly minimum, 10 percent went five times a year and 2 percent went at least monthly."

So who's taking communion? I think just about everyone is breaking the rules!

Hey Dwight!

I think the subject was receipt of Communion by non-catholics, not About Abortion.

By the way, thanks for telling me how important a person I am. I never realized that I was the one man responsible for the sin of all the abortions ever performed! Fancy that. And here I am, still listed as a card carrying Roman Catholic in America!

By the way, here's a clue to all you right-to-lifers.

The sum of the waste of lives, pain, agony, and misery from legal abortions is far less than the sum of the waste of lives, pain, agony, and misery of unwanted children and illegally performed abortions.

All,
It is not a requirement to go to confession prior to recieving Holy communion, unless you have committed a mortal sin. A mortal sin is one where a person purposely and knowingly commits a sin that separates them from God. (Premeditated murder is a good example).

So, this, Sally, is now to be your confessional? And from whom do seek, ( wink, nudge nudge ), expiation?

The most salient word in your justification-cum-mea culpa was, ( as it is ever with Boomers ), "I".

"I" wanted this, "I" wanted to feel, "I" needed, "I" felt. "Me" Über Alles.

Obviously, you missed a dear friend and felt a spiritual connection to Tim. There's nothing remotely narcissistic or facile about that. it's genuine and authentic.

"TAKING" communion, an act you knew was ethically suspect, was spiritually un-authentic at best and most likely an act of emotional narcissism. The focus, as you are clear to express, was on YOUR desire, YOUR need, not an act of selflessness in respect of your dear friend's faith or the mettle of his friendship to you.

This is not a petty issue. We're entered an age where the premium paid to obeisant worship of individual emotion, the glory of one's "Feelings" writ large in sacred codex trumps EVERYTHING.

Perhaps unintentionally, Sally, you have provided us with yet another example, in a vast field of examples, of what result can be expected in a land where each person is the God-Head of their own private Idaho.

So, this, Sally, is now to be your confessional? And from whom do seek, ( wink, nudge nudge ), expiation?

The most salient word in your justification-cum-mea culpa was, ( as it is ever with Boomers ), "I".

"I" wanted this, "I" wanted to feel, "I" needed, "I" felt. "Me" Über Alles.

Obviously, you missed a dear friend and felt a spiritual connection to Tim. There's nothing remotely narcissistic or facile about that. it's genuine and authentic.

"TAKING" communion, an act you knew was ethically suspect, was spiritually un-authentic at best and most likely an act of emotional narcissism. The focus, as you are clear to express, was on YOUR desire, YOUR need, not an act of selflessness in respect of your dear friend's faith or the mettle of his friendship to you.

This is not a petty issue. We're entered an age where the premium paid to obeisant worship of individual emotion, the glory of one's "Feelings" writ large in sacred codex trumps EVERYTHING.

Perhaps unintentionally, Sally, you have provided us with yet another example, in a vast field of examples, of what result can be expected in a land where each person is the God-Head of their own private Idaho.

E Favorite

I know I am a little late replying to you.

I also have known, many Catholics over the years, including my own blood relatives, not to mention, co-workers, neighbors, and just, many, many people. But I have NEVER heard a Catholic talk like the people on this thread.

I have a co-worker who goes to mass twice a week. When Joseph Ratzinger was chosen as the new new Pope, I can't tell you what she said, because they don't allow language like that on this blog.

I have a female friend whom I asked about Confession. She says that she DOES NOT go to Confession because she is not going to engage in a discussion on her private sex-life, ESPECIALLLY with a MAN.

So. I, a Methodist-raised, free-thinker type, am left in befuddlement and amazement, wondering, and wondering.

MMMMMMMMMM.

And then these "mysterious" mmilitant Catholics appear here on this thread, whom you never, ever see or meet anywhere, in real life.

It is a curiousity.

Sally,

Good for you! The official old-guard-old-boy door-warders of the Catholic Church have evidently forgotten that Jesus sought out the lesser of his society, the poor, the ill, the tax collectors, the prostitutes, vagrants, and other ordinary people who were anathema to the officialdom of Jews (e.g., the old-guard-old-boy door-warders). It was the ordinary run of humanity who were specifically invited to his feast, those who were burdened and heavily laden. That you took communion out of respect for your friend and his religion may offend the bean-counting, pin-headed pharisees among us, but Jesus never slams the church door in the face of those who seek the solace of his Holy Table. One of these days the Church will figure that part out. For my part as a practicing Catholic, you're more than always welcome if you receive with dignity and respect. It is unfathomable that the church would ever use the Eucharist as a weapon, but some misguided Bishops seem determined to do so. If you don't believe it, ask John Kerry. PS: don't tell anyone. I won't either. And Jesus won't care.

Sally Quinn wrote, "I think that this has been a very good experience, a good lesson for me..." So, Ms. Quinn, what have you learned from the lesson? Please tell us if you, in fact, will refrain from receiving Holy Communion in the future unless you become a Catholic. I look forward to your early reply.

I really don't understand this 'On Religon' section. Are you going to have an 'On Four-leaf Clovers' section?

Like, does anyone give a rat's A whether you took communion?

Your self absorption is amazing. Not new, but amazing.

Innocent Bystander is right! Most of those taking Communion have not been to Confession, as required. On Saturdays there used to be lines at the confessional in preparation for Sunday Mass and Communion. Now almost no one goes to confession on Saturday and they all get Communion on Sunday at Mass.

But of course the church has made no change, admits no change, allows no change. It is an anachronism.

Sally,

Don't worry about what these people say. Jesus welcomed everyone and would have been glad you took Communion. Jesus wouldn't have asked to see your Roman Catholic 'membership papers' before He let you join the feast.

Kathy in NY writes:
"I can truthfully say I NEVER hear Catholics bad-mouthing the Baptists, or the Lutherans, the Jews or the Muslims. "
The problem is, the Catholic Church, and many individual Catholics posting to this board, consider(s) all other Christian denominations to be basically invalid. One poster said very explicitly that the Catholic Church is Christ's One True Faith. This goes beyond the whole communion issue, but the communion issue is bound up in it. I'm sure this is not meant as an insult, per se, and it's different from mean-spirited bad-mouthing. However I would like Catholics to realize that this attitude is deeply offensive to non-Catholics, many of whom hold very deep faith. In a snippy moment, I might say that Catholics don't "need" to bad-mouth us non-Catholics, since they simply consider us to not really be Christian anyway.
I have seen in generations of my own family the strife that comes with anti-Catholicism, and anti-Protestantism for that mater (my family has a history of Catholic/Protestant marriages, with family members on both sides expressing prejudice). I myself am an Episcopalian (which I consider somewhere between Protestant and Catholic actually) who married a Catholic. I don't like intolerance of Catholicism, or any other faith. I don't feel "anti-Catholic", and in my posts I try not to say things that could be construed as hostile and anti-Catholic. However, since both sides are responsible for "getting along", I would like Catholics to understand how hurtful and divisive this "we're the only true church" attitude is.

As a recovering ex-Catholic and full-time agnostic, I'm pretty sure you won't burn in hell for your act (but I'm an agnostic, so what do I know?)

One observation about this communion thing. I find it fascinating to watch how many people line up to take communion on my rare visit to church. So must the parish priest. Why? Because the communicant is supposed to go to confession before receiving communion. I'm betting that perhaps 1% of all people who receive on Sunday, don't bother with that aspect of the Church doctrine.

Nowadays, everyone seems to go to communion....why? Because they don't want their neighbors wondering what mortal sin they committed that keeps them on the sideline. It has less to do with sincere beliefs and a lot more to do with social standing within the community. Peer pressure.

Back 40+ years ago, when I was an alterboy, it was not unusual to see a significant part of the congregation not taking communion. But it was also not unusual to see a substantial number of people going to Confession on Saturday afternoons.

I'll probably burn in hell for this observation (if I believed there was such a place).

Sally omits a key point: Cradle Catholics and converts alike must "earn" the Communion experience through studying their catechisms, attending instruction sessions - and waiting, waiting, waiting till the time actually comes. So it's understandable that a devout Catholic might resent someone's receiving Communion without this kind of preparation - especially a non-Catholic. Even so, I think Ms Quinn ("Sister Sal") is right when she says her dear friend Tim Russert was probably smiling as she received the eucharist during his funeral. How interesting it would be if she began taking instructions from a priest and entered a period of waiting...for another smile from paradise. Give it a try, Sal.

Sally, I don't think this was the proper way to "honor a dear and departed friend and be closer to him". You have created a stir, one you should have known would occur. You either are arrogant and just did that you wanted in spite of the church's rules, or you were totally ignorant of the rules and just thought anyone could take communion, in which case I think your bosses should seriously reconsider your position in the "On Faith" section of the Post. Personally I do not have a dog in this fight, but the shear stupidity is astonishing.

Leszx and Paul B have it correct. You respect people by respecting what they loved. Russert loved the church. You showed disrespect to his church.

As for those asking who was actually hurt by Sally taking communion, I haven't a clue, but I would wonder what the Russert family thought about Sally taking communion and making such a boneheaded decision resulting in Tim's funeral now being a topic of religious debate. All in all it comes down to Sally not respecting others, and her explanation did nothing to change that. Rather, it explained her arrogance to do what she wanted for herself at a time of suffering for the Russert family with the church doing its part to help them through it all. In a word, unbelievable.

The obvious answer to the problem of unworthy people taking communion is a big sign in the vestibule of every catholic church warning them against taking communion.

Maybe it could be like one of those international road signs, featuring a communion host with a big line through it. However, in this non-verbal sign, I haven't worked out how to distinguish between catholics, non-catholics and catholics who are not in good standing. I'm sure the Bishops could figure something out.

This plan seems much more enforceable than expecting non-catholics to read up on Catholic dogma before attending a service.

RSNEWARK cracks me up. Only a true fanatic would consider casual participation in a public ritual of devotion, an act of hate.

I say again that you can't have it both ways. The Christian majority has worked hard to make Christian symbolism the dominant feature of this culture, as pervasive as donuts and just about as substantial. They only have themselves to blame if the rest of the members of that culture don't automatically recognize the thorny little barriers erected around their sense of specialness.

It funny to see all these Catholics parading their remembrances of what they were taught as children by the church; pity they were never taught any scientific biblical scholarship, which would reveal:
1. the churches know nothing about the real Jesus.
2. Jesus never founded a church or gave a damn about the gentiles around him.
3. Eating the body and blood of a dead god is purely pagan.

Taking Communion at a Catholic Mass implies that one is "in communion" with the Church, that is, accepts the Church's teaching and is trying to live by them, and is eligible to receive Communion according to the criteria set forth by the Church. Since we are all sinners, Jesus instituted the sacrament of Confession to bring us back "in communion" after we have sinned. The Church allows baptized Catholics who are not aware of having committed any grave sin (that has not been reconciled in Confession) to receive Communion. (There are also some simple procedural restrictions governing fasting before communion and the frequency of reception.) If a non-Catholic receives Communion, not being aware of the restriction, Jesus is not offended, the Church will survive, and life goes on. However, knowing and deliberate reception of Communion in violation of the substantive criteria set by the Church - is a serious insult to the Body of Christ (both His Body really present in the Host, and the Body that is His Church). It is also a lie - in that the person thus receiving is claiming that his or her difference with the Church are inconsequential. If Ms. Quinn really would wish to honor and be close to the late Tim Russert, she would do better to respect the Church to which Mr. Russert belonged.

This doesn't have to be complicated. When you're in someone's house you abide by their rules. Everyone knows you don't take RC communion if you're not RC. Regardless of what Bill Clinton does.

I may not agree with RC doctrine regarding communion (especially the prohibition against RC's taking communion at other churches), but the rules are the rules. If you don't like it, don't go. It's rather basic.

To Kathy in NY: "Fallen away Catholics usually have some deeply rooted emotional issue which caused them to hate the Church, and they always feel the need to get others to come over to their way of thinking. Misery loves company."

Gee, thanks. I didn't know I have "some deeply rooted emotional issue which caused [me] to hate the Church."

I thought it was disagreeing with the Church over how I am treated as a woman, and then over time just not believing in a the basic tenets of Catholicism. I still have enormous respect for many of the values I learned as a Catholic Christian, even if I don't practice the faith in a way that you and a number of people here would find acceptable.

But I assure you that I, and many other "fallen away" Catholics I know, have been on a long, difficult personal journey that has involved much struggle and reflection. Just because we haven't arrived at the same destination as you doesn't mean we have "emotional problems." I could easily say the same of you and all other practicing, traditional-style Catholics, but that would be just as unfair to you as you just were to me.

"A good start would be to study, to learn, to talk to people and to have an open heart and an open mind. That’s what I am trying to do. I highly recommend it." -- Sally Quinn

Here's a thought. Would your bosses sign your expense statement to reimburse you if you went out and bought a book to do some studying and some learning *before* you find yourself again visiting an actual church and in a moment of emotional weakness and loss 'taking' in the most sacred aspect of a given faith's worship, and then writing so highly of your own participation and for all your hard work being subject to stunning criticism and gentle remontration?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (see www.usccb.org) or the even shorter "Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church" can tell you all about this faith, and why what you did matters. The latter one has some cool color pictures too. These texts will certainly help you understand, accept, respect, and sympathize with those who adhere to this faith.

I highly recommend it. Really.

Dont just try to understand, accept, learn, study, respect. Just do it.

And after having studied up on it all prior to your next visit to a sacred liturgy of the faith, you will likely not need to see signs or bulletin postings about what to do or not do ad nauseum.

Most anyone would learn something, you might be touched spiritually, and you might even enjoy it. I bet Tim would like that. Heck I would too.

I bet Newsweek will spring for the books. If not, let us all know and I'll pass the collection plate for you, or maybe I'll even dig deep.

I, like many academics, theologians and clergy, including Catholics, think that the stories and characters in the bible are myth-based. Myths are considered highly important in human development and are different from fairy tales, which focus on entertaining and teaching children. In both genres, as well as in other kinds of fiction, characters often make statements that have broad moral meaning, e.g., Jesus saying “Love one another” and the innocent child pointing out that “The emperor has no clothes.”

Like myth, ritual is part of what it means to be human. Irrespective of the setting, singing together, moving together, eating together are ways of forming and renewing human bonds. I’ve always loved the rituals of the church, and hope they can be preserved in some form.

Bob Franks: “But they don't then after Mass tell their friends, "hey i committed a mortal sin and I received today!"

You’re probably right about that. People tend to try to hide hypocrisy and guilt, but it often shows through, one way or the other.

Neal: “If Jesus were really and truly bodily present in the communion bread and wine wouldn't it be reasonable to expect to see some change in the people receiving him?”

Excellent point.

Jesuit-educated: “That you chose to receive Holy Communion at Tim's Funeral Mass seems to me to have been an act of love.”

Another good Catholic, of the kind I remember from my youth and still know as an adult. I wish I had read this last night; I would have slept better.

Patrick; “When I go to Protestant services, Jewish services, and Muslim services (I've prayed with Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq)….”

When I was growing up, the priests and nuns taught us that going into a protestant church was a mortal sin. I visited my friend’s Presbyterian church anyhow. It was the blandest sin I ever committed. I suppose if I had died then, I would have gone to Catholic hell.

Practica: “so why smirk and play with the other deeply held beliefs of people who differ from you?

What makes you think he/she is smirking? And why interpret the word “party” as “carnival” – why not “celebration" as in celebration of the mass?

Kris: “I am curious as to why so many nonbelievers would bother to stop, read and comment on a page about God and religion.”

This forum is for people who are interested in religion, some of whom are not believers. There is no prerequisite of belief in any religion, anymore than reading the sports page requires loyalty to a particular team.

Dwight: “if you want to offset the sin go to a Catholic church to confession and tell the Priest what you did and you want GOD's forgiveness…”

Hold it, don’t you have to be Catholic for confession to work? Isn’t a non-catholic going to confession similar to a non-catholic taking communion?

And to all those informing Sally of how offended Tim Russert is about her taking communion - You may think your Catholicism gives you knowledge of God’s views of her actions, but it most certainly does not give you an inside track on the musings of deceased Catholics.

Why is this woman laughing

If the euchrist leaves you "slightly neauseated" then better to leave it alone, that's not'communion'. Clearly you don't know what the word means. Being catholic it obviously insulted Tim who would clearly have told you not to partake for his sake, but learn for your own sake.

If the euchrist leaves you "slightly neauseated" then better to leave it alone, that's not'communion'. Clearly you don't know what the word means. Being catholic it obviously insulted Tim who would clearly have told you not to partake for his sake, but learn for your own sake.

I am an Episcopalian and receiving Holy Communion is a very important part of my spirtual life. The Episcopal Church opens communion to all baptized Christians. Every Sunday the priest invites all to the altar and explains that those not wishing to take communion can cross their arms on their chest and receive a blessing. Those are the rules of my church. When I attend a Roman Catholic services, I go to the front and cross my arms for a blessing. Would I like to take communion? Yes Do a feel a little left out because the Roman Church asks me not to receive it? Yes My mother taught me that when I was visiting someone else's home to respect that home. I think a non-Roman Catholic taking communion without knowing the rules would be over looked by most priests, the intention of the person was not in question. For a person to take communion knowing the rules is just rude.
We can debate whether Roman Catholics are right about this all we want. We live in a country that allows us to choose our religious communities. I am not Roman Catholic by choice, but as a fellow Christian, when I visit their place of worship it is important that I respect them. I am sure whatever "Jesus would do", he would at least be respectful of others.

I find it telling that aside from a few, most of the postings here by non-Catholics have a distinct
odor of hatefulness about them toward the Roman Catholic faith. Anti-Catholicism is truly the last acceptable bias. No one is asking you to "join up". There are some troubled souls posting here, who seem incapable of disagreeing with the Catholic viewpoint without crude and insulting remarks. Then there are those who are nominal Catholics, posting some "new age" brand of American Catholicism, which is muddled and pointless. These are more dangerous than the others, because they do nothing to defend their faith, instead they cow-tow to those who take issue with the Catholic faith. Ignorance is bliss. If you are afraid to delve deeply into what Catholicsm is really about, at least have the courage to keep your disrespecful comments private. Fallen away Catholics usually have some deeply rooted emotional issue which caused them to hate the Church, and they always feel the need to get others to come over to their way of thinking. Misery loves company.

Most importantly, I can truthfully say I NEVER hear Catholics bad-mouthing the Baptists, or the Lutherans, the Jews or the Muslims. Not to say that they might not take issue with some of these sets of beliefs, but out of respect for others strongly and deeply held beliefs, refrain from criticising them. That we contend that in order to receive Communion you must be in full Communion with the Catholic church is a matter of doctrine, which we as faithful Catholics believe firmly and deeply, and it is not meant as a "put-down" to non-Catholics. Those of you who belittle and mock what Catholics believe, and the whole Catholic church in general speaks of a lack of charity and respect which has no place in a faith community, no matter what religion or denomination. What are all you non-Catholics afraid of? We are not threatening to indoctrinate you all into something you find so reprehensible.

So much scripture being bandied about here....
how about this one...."Blessed are you when they insult you and utter every kind of slander against you because of Me, be glad and rejoice for your reward is great in heaven; they persecuted the prophets before you in the very same way".

And to quote St. Augustine, in the truest words ever spoken "our hearts are restless Lord, until they rest in You". Many restless hearts have posted here. May they seek and find the peace which surpasses all understanding.

Still no apology Sally, you truly are the most ignorant hating presuming hypocrite our dear Lord ever made. I can easily believe the next time a Tim Russet dies you will perform the same hateful act. If you truly wanted to understand religion - not "faith" which can mean a lot of things you would have respect for the Catholic church and not blasphem it at ever opportunity the Post gives you.

the fact that you don't understand the uproar over your actions to take holy communion as a non catholic should disqualify you from hosting or comoderating a forum on religion. how stupid can you be?

There are exceptions to every rule...even in the Catholic Church; but, Ms. Quinn is correct, learning and understading with an open heart is key.

pro choice people going to communion makes a mockery of communion. And the idea that sally quinn is still searching for "meaning" at this point in life is a joke.

This question is getting obscene. Ms.Quinn needs to admit she was wrong, period. Her opponents need to stop with their self-righteousness and pharisaical blather.

Miss Quinn,

Judas first began to betray Our Lord at his refusal to believe that Our Lord was giving his own flesh and blood for our food.

If you have ears to hear read Our Lord's Discourse on the Bread of Life. (Gospel of John Chapter 6).

"any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself." Saint Paul adds that this has caused the death of some of the Corithinians. 1 Cor. 11:25.

How is that you honored Mr. Russert?

Sally, I have only one question for you---when you took communion, did you believe that it was in fact the Body of Christ? We believe that eucharist is not a representation of Christ's body and blood as you've indicated here in this article, but IS His Body and His Blood. By taking communion, you are saying that you believe this. If you don't believe, then you shouldn't receive.

Eucharist is not a symbol of unity, but an act of faith.

What would Christ do? Go to the Gospel of John: "My flesh is true food, my blood is true drink." when his followers turned away, Jesus did not stop them.

"Anonymous wrote:

Look no further. "Meaning in life" is right in front of us. That is to make ourselves and our fellow humans happy, wealthy and wise before we die and merge into the unknown. By taking Communion, even though you are not a Catholic, you participated in the big party, the big dance, that human existence is all about. I am an agnostic( not quite an atheist) but regularly attend church, take communion, go to Protestant church services, offer namaaz at mosques, offer pooja at Hindu temples and more.

Humans have created the gods, whether you call the god Jesus, Yahweh, Allah or Vishnu, and religions connect believing humans to the human made gods.

By worshipping in the cafeteria of gods we add a spiritual zest to the great party."

Well, that's a nice secular, humanistic take on the question - one I'm sympathetic to and reasonably comfortable with, myself, as an educated cultural Catholic.

The problem is, most of the people participating in those services that you enjoy as part of the "party" believe that they are growing closer to a particular experience of godliness - and that it is REAL.

So while they may be polite to you, the fact that you enjoy the events as a carnival rather than as worship may be offensive to them. It's disrespectful to use someone else's religion, publicly, as part of your own dance. Just as it's disrespectful to use democratic government in cynical ways, it is disrespectful and cynical to exploit someone else's religion for the fun of it. I don't suppose you'd want to explore male or female genital mutilation, or natural family planning, or sacrifice of goats and chickens, or the disciplines of Hasidic Judaism as part of that "big party" - so why smirk and play with the other deeply held beliefs of people who differ from you? People who believe god made them, rather than that they made god?

Is it a superiority thing?

It seems to me you really still don't get it. You say:

"I did know that there has been much debate and controversy in the Catholic church about who may or may not take Communion. Some Catholic Pro-Choice candidates have been refused Communion because of their political positions, and yet Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, Chris Dodd and Nancy Pelosi all took Communion when Pope Benedict was here this spring."

Communion has been recently in the news in a political context, and I can understand why you might view it that way, but communion is not primarily a political question. For Catholics it is a deeply held belief and practice central to the faith.

I wish you luck in your "looking for markers from all faith traditions which touch [you] in a spiritual way." I am skeptical, however,that your religious tourism will not help you understand religion.

George Will on Sunday had a wonderful quote from Benjamin Franklin, "Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." I am a former atheist who thinks that Ben as usual was right. Does God want us to scrap over who takes communion? I don't think so!

About Abortion...

A women who aborts carries the sin of that one abortion...

A doctor who performs abortions carries the sins of the abortions he performs...

someone who supports those who support abortion carries the sin of all the abortions ever performed...

Here is a different take on this...
GOD gave man free will and his after life is based on his belief. by accepting Communion you have now given up your free will choice...when your time comes, GOD will judge you by the laws Catholics must live by along with the laws of your belief...

if you want to offset the sin go to a Catholic church to confession and tell the Priest what you did and you want GOD's forgiveness...

Even sometime Catholics can't seem to get it straight: Catholics who marry "outside their faith" are permitted to receive Communion. Giuliani's problem is that, under Church law, he is still married to someone other than the woman who is legally his wife, AND he supports abortion. At the very least, his taking Communion invites scandal, teaching, as a public figure, that young people don't have to take Church law seriously - under Church law, he is a public adulterer and support of abortion is support for unjustly taking an innocent life.

Of course, not all Catholics believe in transubstantiation, and not all Catholics care whether unbelievers, adulterers, unrepentant murderers or puppies take Communion - but many do, so it would seem to be at least POLITE to avoid trampling on their sensibilities.

Why make a mockery of someone else's deeply held belief? When I'm at Muslim events, I sit where I am asked to sit, to avoid trampling; similarly with Jewish and Presbyterian and Quaker events.

It's nice you felt Tim smiling down at you - but Communion isn't primarily about Tim, and he knew that.

First of all, Catholic teaching includes all Christians in the one church of Jesus Christ. Although some are currently separated because of interpretation, we are all one in Jesus. I would define Christian in this sense as one who believes that Jesus was God, and that there is only one God with three divine persons, and we are saved by the one act of His dying on the cross.
Yes Catholics believe that Jesus is really present in Holy Communion but it goes much further than that. We believe that the wafer you see is in reality, Him. The same Jesus who walked the earth 2000 years ago. Our receiving Him in this manner is an affirmation and acceptance of this fact. It is a profession of our faith to receive Communion. If you don't profess this, you should not accept Communion. The fact that some non practicing Catholics do receive for whatever reason does not change what is right.
It is also part of Catholic tradition that an awful lot of non-Catholics will join us in eternity. Finally, we will put aside all of these earthly things that divide us and we will all be one in Jesus.

First of all, Catholic teaching includes all Christians in the one church of Jesus Christ. Although some are currently separated because of interpretation, we are all one in Jesus. I would define Christian in this sense as one who believes that Jesus was God, and that there is only one God with three divine persons, and we are saved by the one act of His dying on the cross.
Yes Catholics believe that Jesus is really present in Holy Communion but it goes much further than that. We believe that the wafer you see is in reality, Him. The same Jesus who walked the earth 2000 years ago. Our receiving Him in this manner is an affirmation and acceptance of this fact. It is a profession of our faith to receive Communion. If you don't profess this, you should not accept Communion. The fact that some non practicing Catholics do receive for whatever reason does not change what is right.
It is also part of Catholic tradition that an awful lot of non-Catholics will join us in eternity. Finally, we will put aside all of these earthly things that divide us and we will all be one in Jesus.

I am curious as to why so many nonbelievers would bother to stop, read and comment on a page about God and religion. I don't like sports and would never waste my time on the Sports pages making comments.

Anyway, I always thought Communion was to remember Christ, NOT another person. So, while your intentions were good, you may have missed the point of the whole exercise.

Catholics didn't invent Communion, Jesus told us to do this special act, to remember HIM. So, while you are not Catholic, to obey Jesus is more important, as long as you did it for the correct reason. You were honoring Mr. Russet by your mere presence at his homegoing, so there was no need to do more than that.

I am an Episcopalian who has always refrained from taking communion in a Catholic (or any other religion's) church, though I have seen many non-Catholics receive communion during funerals, such as you did. I was always confused by that, as I was taught not to.

However, I cannot believe that a kind and merciful God would be concerned with your action. I suspect the God I know to simply be happy with your presence.

I am sorry about the loss of your good friend. I agree, he must have been smiling down on you during that service.

Evidently - or at least according to Quinn's critics - the machineries of "faith" are a one-way permeable barrier. We are all supposed to live according to the myths and premises of People of Faith, but no one who hasn't been given the secret handshake is permitted to participate - for whatever motivation, no matter how laudable - in their public, group performances.

I say you can't have it both ways. You want your own boundaries respected? *Truly* respect the limits of your belief system's relevance in other lives.

I have read the column from time to time. What I found so disappointing is that someone who claims to respect religious faiths, as she explores them and seeks to bridge differences, would trod so thoroughly on an important and sacred element of Catholic faith. Knowing she should not have received, she did so in an attempt to feel close to Mr. Russert. While I have no doubt Mr. Russert would have encouraged Ms. Quinn to explore her feelings in the context of our Catholic faith, receiving communion shows she did not understand a fundamental element of our faith -- that communion represents a unity with Christ, not a unity with Tim Russert.

Since Ms. Quinn seems to put her feelings over other's faith, I think I will explore religious tolerance elsewhere.

Sally, We Catholics, go to Confession before receiving so that we enter that sacrament free of mortal sin, It is such a profound sacrament we dont take lightly.In other words we are in Communion with the Catholic doctrines. We are one Holy Catholic and Apostolic church. Those Catholic that know the rules and receive in the state of mortal sin make a mockery of the sacrament. They do know better but chose to do there prideful will. They insult the Catholic faithful. As for your choice of receiving you dont fully understand what Tim knew. He loved you and and wanted to share. In todays world, he was a true Catholic someone who lived and loved his Faith, A true example in this cut throat world. What admiration I felt for him, I am heart broken at his death, and yes I cried. Too bad listening to the news reporters today (Catholic) dont get it, life is too short as Tim demonstrated. For Tims sake study the Catholic Church and the full meaning,Regards, Mary Ann

I have this debate over communion with my grandparents (United Church of Christ) every time there's a family wedding, baptism, funeral or confirmation.

Anti-Catholicism (even in the form of disrespect for our most sacred rites) is the last tolerated prejudice in Amerian society. When I go to Protestant services, Jewish services, and Muslim services (I've prayed with Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq) I ask what the rules are and I follow them.

When you go to MY FATHER'S HOUSE, show some respect for those of us Catholics who actually care about our traditions and rituals and FOLLOW THE HOUSE RULES. I'd do the same at your church.

Look no further. "Meaning in life" is right in front of us. That is to make ourselves and our fellow humans happy, wealthy and wise before we die and merge into the unknown. By taking Communion, even though you are not a Catholic, you participated in the big party, the big dance, that human existence is all about. I am an agnostic( not quite an atheist) but regularly attend church, take communion, go to Protestant church services, offer namaaz at mosques, offer pooja at Hindu temples and more.

Humans have created the gods, whether you call the god Jesus, Yahweh, Allah or Vishnu, and religions connect believing humans to the human made gods.

By worshipping in the cafeteria of gods we add a spiritual zest to the great party.

Who cares why you did something? If you watched "Last Comic Standing" last night you would have been disgusted with the sardonic humor of the group from Brooklyn, NY: "God's Pottery". It takes to task the evangelical path to destiny by exhorting the crowd by pressurizing the soul to chant "Jesus is the best G-d" and to listen to mocking insults at all other religions. It was as funny as a prat fall by a wheelchair bound person. Who cares? So you love Jesus. Big deal. Now go out and do something good.

Welcome to the joys of the 13th century Christian Love of Bill Donahue, Sally.....

For Ms. Quinn, fellow non-Catholic Christians and all.

The below was taken from the inside cover of "Today's Missal." Numerous copies of this booklet are found in every Catholic church pew.

It reads verbatim:

"For our fellow Christians"

"We welcome our fellow Christians to this celebration of the Eucharist as our brothers and sisters. We pray that our common baptism and the action of the Holy Spirit in this Eucharest will draw us closer to one another and begin to dispel the sad divisions that separate us. We pray that these will lessen and finally disappear, in kepping with CHRIST'S prayer for us "that they may all be one" (John 17:21).

Because Catholics believe that the celebration of the Eucharist is a sign of the reality of the oneness of faith, life, and worship, members of those churches with whom we are not yet fully united are *ORDINARILY NOT ADMITTED* (my emphasis)to Holy Communion. Eucharistic sharing in exceptional circumstances by other Christians requires permission according to the directives of the diocesan bishops and the provisions of canon law (canon 844-4).

Members of the Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church are urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches. According to Roman Catholic discipline, the Code of Canon Law does not object to the reception of communion by Christians of these Churches(cannon 844-3)."

"For non-Christians"

"We also welcome to this celebration those who do not share our faith in Jesus Christ. While we cannot admit them to Holy Communion, we ask them to offer their prayers for the peace and unity of the human family."

To all non Catholics ........ I respect your faith. Please respect mine.

Dear Sally

I believe that you meant nothing more than feeling a sense of communion with your dear friend Tim Russert when you received Communion at his funeral Mass. I like to imagine Jesus Himself would have nothing against that. But I'm not Jesus.

But as a lay Catholic I have no authority to speak on behalf of the Church on the matter of a Sacrament, a sacred ritual. I can only say that I recall as an eight year old I had to put in several months of preparation and the First Holy Communion was celebrated as a grand occasion.

I have tried to picture you in Shantivanam, the Christian Ashram of Dom Bede Griffiths, and wondered what Fr Bede would have done. One thing I know for certain he would never have denied you Communion if you lined up for it. But I tend to think that if you had asked him whether you may receive it he would have advised you against it, since he was a Catholic priest who was bound by Church Law in such matters. I'm also hundred percent certain he would not have held it against you for going to Communion out of love for your friend at his funeral.

Keep up your spiritual journey. May the Holy Spirit continue to lead you as He will!

Best wishes
Soja

Strange days. Both my mother and father converted to Catholicism. My mother studied four years before being accepted into the sacremental life of the Church. The idea that a non-Catholic can simply "sample" divinity without any knowledge of what worthy reception of the Eucharist means is just sad, presumptuous nonsense.

Anonymous, you wrote:

>There is enough archaeological evidence, enough text evidence, independent of the Quoran to demonstrate that he existed.

Again - where is the evidence? Cite it.

>Some specific events mentioned in the Quoran, e.g., the slaughter of the Qurayza Jews, have been documented as well.

Sorry, you don't get to cite the Quoran, which came into existence long after the supposed life of Mohammed, anymore than Christian are allowed to use their version of a bible to prove the existence of Jesus.

Mohammed was and is a figment of human imagination, just as the concept of communion - that it's possible to eat the flesh of Jesus and drink his blood - is an imaginary occurance.

Ms. Quinn I applaud you for your honest and introspective look at the ritual of communion in the christian tradition. And I, like you, am continually finding how little I know about the belief systems that order so many lives. But I must say that this idea of ritual and who can do something and who can't and why bothers me to no end. To seek God is a human endeavor that knows no limits nor conforms to any set of precise rules. For those who find comfort in the Catholic tradition of communion as a sacred rite, they have my deepest respect but that does not preclude the rest of us from being in communion with God because we do not adhere to Catholicism or Christianity for that matter. I guess what I'm trying to express here is that often we are caught up in the ritual at the expense of the spiritual and for me I commune with God in a myriad of ways.

I enjoy your writing and I look forward to pondering the issues of faith and belief with you.

thanks

Dear Ms. Quinn,

Thank you for your honest and revealing post.

After reading over 230 of the comments here I am truly dismayed at the many, many hurtful and misguided sentiments expressed.

I am a Catholic and my faith defines and informs every aspect of my life. I try to live my faith in action - that's why I am a "practicing" Catholic. I am far, far, far from perfect.

That you chose to receive Holy Communion at Tim's Funeral Mass seems to me to have been an act of love.

If there is one clear message from the New Testament it is that we are to live in Christ's love. First Corinthians 13 sums it all up quite nicely.

I hope that you never come to regret your decision to have lived in love at that moment of Communion.

Dave:

Obviously, historians don't include the supernatural in the evidence they have of Mohammad's existence. There is enough archaeological evidence, enough text evidence, independent of the Quoran to demonstrate that he existed. Some specific events mentioned in the Quoran, e.g., the slaughter of the Qurayza Jews, have been documented as well.

This is not the case with Jesus, of course. I'm speaking only of Mohammad.

For a start, Dave, go to any encyclopedia. Wikepedia is fine.

" In her privileged world, life is all about experiences and feeling. Moreover, Quinn’s statement not only reeks of narcissism, it shows a profound disrespect for Catholics and the beliefs they hold dear."

Really?
It appears that catholics are quitecontent with the church policies that allow the following...

The Catholic Church worldwide has vast amount of real estate, it owns more land globally than any other organization on the planet.

The Vatican has billions of dollars in solid gold in its coffers, mostly stored in gold ingots with the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank, while banks in England and Switzerland hold the rest. But this is just a small portion of the wealth of the Vatican, which in the U.S. alone, is greater than that of the five wealthiest giant corporations of the country. The Church possesses more riches in real estate, property, stocks and shares than any other single institution, corporation, bank, government or state, making the Pope, the official ruler of this vast reserve, the richest man in modern history. Indeed the staggering accumulation of the wealth of the Catholic Church becomes so formidable as to defy any rational assessment.

No one can realistically assess how much the Pope is worth in terms of billions of dollars and the church cunningly values most of its artwork and valuables at just 1 euro, so they will never be sold. And it doesn't pay any taxes anywhere

Oh and don't forget that the draconian laws of the vatican banning the use of contraceptives is the biggest contributor of aids worldwide, not to mention overpopulation of dust bowl Africa or Central and South America where the poor ignorant catholics have huge starving families because they know they will go to hell if they do not obey the church, or they will catch aids by using condoms. (See The Catholic Church is telling people in countries stricken by Aids not to use condoms because they have tiny holes in them through which the HIV virus can pass - potentially exposing thousands of people to risk. The church is making the claims across four continents despite a widespread scientific consensus that condoms are impermeable to the HIV virus. (See BBC TV BBC TV Panorama) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/3180236.stm)

Prez. George Bush donated some $18 billion US to combat aids in the third world. Bush has also contributed tens of billions to Africa and Central and South America .

How much has the Vatican,the institution responsible for most of the aids epidemic and famine through overpopulation contributed ? ...Zero.
These are the beliefs thye catholics hold dear?

>Dave:

The one figure you're wrong about is Mohammed. He certainly existed. Check your sources. There is no doubt, none whatsoever.

It's up to the claimant to offer proof of an assertion. What sources do you have? Do they include mention of Mohammed's ascension to heaven on the back of a white horse?

What contemporary records can be pointed to that would show Mohammed was a historical figure?

Sally Quinn, Instead of receiving the Eucharist at Mass, you should have folded yor arms across your chest and bowed your head. You would then have received a blessing from the priest, instead of receiving Holy Communion from the priest. This is the practice non-Catholics should be learning and doing. As a Catholic, it has been done in most Parishes I have been at through the years. It shows that the Catholic Church welcomes you as a participant, yet distinguishes that you are not a Catholic since you do not believe ALL its teachings and beliefs, and that the Sacred Host through Transubstantiation becomes the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ under the appearance of bread and wine. This He taught us at the Last Supper and in the Gospel of John Chapter 6, and also in some of Paul's Letters.

The Bible states that when Jesus touched people they were cured of blindness, lameness (the orthopedic kind), demonic possession and even rose from the dead. I've attended thousands of Catholic masses and I've never seen anything extraordinary as a result of people having Jesus supposedly resting right there on their tongues. Can anyone here provide any recorded instances of miraculous cures resulting directly from someone receiving communion? As a word of caution, I'm setting the bar fairly high in view of the 7,000 or so people who claim to have been cured after contacting Lourdes spring water.

Dave:

You're right up there with E Favorite. She thinks the whole NT is a lie from beginning to end and she thinks that priests and ministers should tell that to their congregations. She's a person of conviction so I'm sure she'll be giving her advice to the Christian panelists soon. You might enjoy reading what she says to them.

"The more the universe seems comprehensible, the more it also seems pointless." --Steven Weinberg, _The First Three Minutes_.

"Faith" is the antithesis of comprehension. It demands a willful denial of reality.

Dave:

The one figure you're wrong about is Mohammed. He certainly existed. Check your sources. There is no doubt, none whatsoever.

Pat and Jean:

This "confession" of Quinn stinks to high heaven. It's a publicity stunt for her blog at the expense of Catholic sensibilities.

I wouldn't even be surprised if she never took communion at Tim Russert's funeral. I harbor no hatred for Sally Quinn, but this exploitation of Catholics is deplorable.

I have no problem with Ms. Quinn taking communion, because I know there is no god, other than that which we create in our minds. We might as well debate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. There is no Santa Claus, no Easter Bunny, no Tooth Fairy, there was never a Mohammed, a Moses, or a Christ, except in the imaginations of those unable to accept the reality of death.

-Pat Pardon the cliche, but Ms. Quinn's actions don't pass the smell test.

AMEN. She's a highly positioned person who could have consulted with Archbishop Wuerl if she had misgivings about having taken communion.

She didn't. Instead, she first posted about how it nauseated her, and then she posted this new piece of trash. The sad part is that Catholics bought into this shameless display. All Quinn did was to bring more publicity for her blog, and that's all she wanted to do.

Like another blog said, any Catholics who continue to post here might as well just send her a check. To tell you the truth, I never heard of this blog before, and I don't plan to come back here any time soon.

This is a scam. It doesn't pass the smell test. It stinks.

An earlier poster wrote:
"Jesus said the Catholic Church which He founded will survive to the end of the world, and even the gates of hell would not prevail against it. So Sally has no chance, no matter what she might think."

This comment seems to point out why the disunity between Catholics and non-Catholics seems insurmountable. Jesus didn't found the Catholic Church. He didn't even found the Christian Church. He lived, died and ascended as a Jew, and if he was trying to found anything, it was a new way of living and perceiving God: a perception of God's love and forgiveness that was for Jews and non-Jews alike, and that obligated God's children to respond with love, forgiveness, mercy and justice for each other. His followers founded the Christian Church. All the doctrine and rules are manmade! They don't come in any way from Jesus or His teachings! And these manmade rules divide and hurt us. It breaks my heart to read some of the posts from Catholics on this board, such as: they haven't been able to attend church or receive communion since childhood, because of a feeling of guilt that they're not sinless enough (!!), or that they have to watch their children take communion while they and their spouse sit in the pew, because they haven't finished their catechumenate (whereby learning all the manmade doctrine will make them good enough for communion), and their spouse was previously divorced. As an earlier post said more eloquently, "qualification" to receive communion is totally different from grace. Grace is God's love and forgiveness given to us in spite of our being undeserving. When we approach the communion rail in humility and with an open heart, we may experience that grace. The less "deserving" we are, the more we need that grace, and perhaps the more Christ welcomes us to His table, as long as we seek His forgiveness.
Doctrine that divides, excludes, blames and drives people from the presence of God cannot flow from Christ. I wish that such doctrine was not the primary manifestation of Christianity seen by so many people.
I write this as a Christian and an Episcopalian.

Another "last things":
Ms. Quinn, surely you realize we Catholics feel we are being persecuted in this country and falsely accused of being "intolerant" because we refuse to yield our faith on issues such as contraception, abortion, gay "marriage", embryonic stem cell research etc.

And the leaders of the mobs with the torches who are attacking us for our 2000 yr old beliefs are the press - they are you!!

That is why you struck such a nerve with this blog amongst Catholics. We feel we are under unrelenting attack these days by those who refuse to try to understand our ways.

Your last sentences about "open mindedness" really hit a nerve, since we are relentlessly called "intolerant" these days.

God loves you just as much as He loves any Catholic, or anybody else. This is true.

His rainbow at the end of the Mass was not only His salute to Tim, but also His mercy to people like you who are struggling with issues about God.
He gave you that sign in the sky more so than to the believers in the crowd. It was meant exactly for you.

He showed you a sign that coincidence alone does not account for (since Tim loved the Somewhere Over the Rainbow song which was sung at the end of his funeral Mass); now what are you going to do about it?

He loves you, He was merciful to you and gave you a sign. It is your move, Sally Quinn. Don't wait for another sign, since most of us don't even get a single one, we "believe without seeing". You got your sign, now do something about it!

God bless.

I don't know Sally Quinn's religious background, but as a "high" Episcopalian raised Roman Catholic who takes the Eucharist at least as seriously as anyone who would presume to deny it to me, I am outraged at the posters saying things like Tim Russert's in Hell because he supported the Democrats (so there will most of my relatives be, I guess) Have you never heard of judging-not-lest-ye-be-judged? Thank God for Martin Luther! Thank God for Henry VIII (or more accurately Elizabeth I, but do most people know of her role?)! Thank God for the Episcopal Church which accepts me as I know God does but as the Roman church I grew up in didn't! Every time an Anglican church does the right thing (consecrating women bishops, for example) and the Bishop of Rome "warns" us it's an obstacle to reconciliation, I say, good! I have no interest in being reunited to a church that is so caught up in the idolatry of its own man-made rules it's forgotten Christian love.

Is it possible that this faux pas was done by the D.C. beltway's social doyenne, whose job it is to know all of the details about everything that keeps the political/journalistic social strata purring? This entire matter is obscene -- from the sampling of a Catholic communion wafer by someone whose job it is understand other faiths, to her self-absorbed attempted justification of the act.

Is it possible that someone in Ms. Quinn's position could really be this naive?

To "Jane" who hates the beating Ms. Quinn is taking from the readers: part of the problem here is that Ms. Quinn chose to publicly justify her "mistake" in taking the communion. I don't know any Catholics who wouldn't have been understanding had this been done by someone who truly didn't know it was not in the Catholic play book; but attempting to publicly justify it by opening it up for discussion in the blog is unforgivable.

Pardon the cliche, but Ms. Quinn's actions don't pass the smell test.

What an egotist!

This would have been no big deal if she hadn't decided to brag about it afterwards. When the Catholic priest offers the consecrated bread and wine he is offering you the actual physical body and blood of Christ. Anyone (even Catholics) who accepts it without believing this is taking communion under false pretenses. Whether or not you are "worthy," or whether your choice is appropriate, is between you and God, and not the business of the rest of us.

A few last things: Sally if you are searching for faith markers and a meaning to life, then attend the Mass every Sunday for a year and really listen to what is said there, and read Scott Hahn's "Rome Sweet Home". Watch what happens to you.

And to whoever said receiving Christ does not change us, all I can say is the most surreal peace I have ever seen happens each Sunday during and right after distribution of Holy Communion. After all the noise of footsteps and people moving toward and from the altar, a surreal quiet and peace descends upon the entire church -- this happens every single Sunday at whatever church I am in (happens on vacation at Mass, for example).

It is the Peace of Christ, now physically present in the members of the body of Christ, that is, present in all of us sitting in the pews.

I love those few moments of Peace after Communion - there is nothing like it anywhere else.

Dale, I meant Ms. Quinn should say she's sorry and she should move on. (And yes, that also was a none too subtle reference to moveon.org)

Yes it is time to stop posting here since I think she got the point (I hope) that her "open mind" statement (which implies Catholics are close-minded and intolerant of others even though she professes she did it out of love for Catholic Tim) and her action is not going to change the 2000 year old Church of Jesus that is practiced by 1 billion people. She hopefully knows now she is spitting into the wind.

God loves her, but she should not imply intolerant Catholics should just shut up and accept what she did with an "open mind". I think she heard us.

Spiderman2 used to post as HOLY COW. Read Prof Stevens-Arroyo's blogs for his take on Christianity.

He is a television Christian who loves to bash the Catholic Church.

Perhaps an important point is being missed.

God knows your heart and your searching.
Their are no coincidences in life, your life's path joined with Tim Russert’s brought you to his funeral mass.

As you stated:
"Communion was offered. I took it. All I could think about was Tim smiling down (from Heaven with God) at me and saying, “We’re winning you over after all, aren’t we Sister Sal?” It (God) made me feel uplifted, close to Tim and it (God) assuaged my grief."

God has given you an invitation through His Son.

You may be more Catholic than many who profess to be!

One becomes Catholic to Honor the Creator.

E Favorite, I am sure there are Catholics with mortal sin who receive Communion, for whatever reason - some, out of fear not doing so will announce a big sin to other family members, some who just cannot live with rejection of Our Lord and go up there pleading for Him to still live in them...or whatever other reason.

But they don't then after Mass tell their friends, "hey i committed a mortal sin and I received today!" and they certainly don't brag about it in a blog. I say brag here, because Ms. Quinn at the end of her article insinuated we Catholics should be open minded about it and let others receive.

Like I said earlier, Ms. Quinn, while your at it, tell the Muslims to be open minded too and allow people to wear shoes in their mosques.

E Favorite- Didn't Jesus say "love one another?"

But you say Jesus didn't exist. You say the whole NT is a fairy tale, so what are you talking about?

Cobie Romero " Spiderman2, why all the hate and prejudice. All Catholics are not the same."

Let me assure you that I don't hate Catholics. It is Catholicism that I hate. I have many friends who are Catholic even best friends.

I dread the day when these people would realize the error of their religion too late.

They commit sin worthy of hell but their religion don't seem to bother them.

Anon wrote "so many hate filled Catholic bashers "

Jose Rizal was not the hater. For telling his people the truth, he was executed by a firing squad on the prodding of the TRUE HATERS, like the German guard who has to go to mass first before planning to shoot a Jew.

People will kill in the name of false religion. These are the true haters.

A Jose Rizal Quote :

"What Blindness!! What Lack Of Understanding !!

Spiderman2, why all the hate and prejudice. All Catholics are not the same.

When can people learn that there is NO HOLY WATER; NO HOLY BISCUIT; NO HOLY ROSARY; NO HOLY POPE, and NO HOLY COW. The only way to be holy is to repent of sins and live a life in accordance to the word of Jesus Christ in the Bible.

All these rituals are just FOR SHOW. A "SENSE OF HOLINESS" where there is really none. As Jose Rizal had said, examine the LIVES OF THESE PRIESTS and see for yourselves how these people live.

****

A Quote from Jose Rizal

" Consider well that kind of religion that they are teaching you. See whether it is the will of the God or according to the teachings of Christ that the poor be succored and those who suffer alleviated. Consider what they are preaching to you, the object of the sermon, what is behind the masses, novenas, rosaries, scapularies, images, miracles, candles, belts, etc., etc.; which they daily keep before your minds; ears and eyes; jostling, shouting, and coaxing, INVESTIGATE whence they came and WHETHER THEY GO and then compare that religion with the pure religion of Christ and SEE whether the PRETENDED OBSERVANCE of the life of Christ does not remind of the fat mik cow or the fattened pig, which is encouraged to grow fat not through love of the animal, but not grossly mercenary motives. "

Well, Sally it's great to see how your decision has brought so many hate filled Catholic bashers to the table to discuss the issue of Holy Communion which is based on their hate filled ignorance.They know nothing yet have an opinion based on their own bigotry.
I wonder what your close friend Tim would think of this since he was a practicing believing Catholic who's faith was very important to him . This is a disgrace but you got your story written and stirred up the controvercy by your disrespectful actions.This was an incredible way to honor your good friend Tim Russert.

Neal, St. Peter walked with Jesus everyday, and; look what he did.

If Jesus were really and truly bodily present in the communion bread and wine wouldn't it be reasonable to expect to see some change in the people receiving him? Judging from some of the less-than-charitable comments of some Catholics here (and the ones who nearly run me over on Sunday mornings madly exiting the nearby RC church parking lot) it would seem that even frequent intimate contact with no less an entity than God himself makes, really, no difference at all. For all the talk about the transcendent "miracle" of transubstantiation, I've seen people affected more by the return of the McRib.

If there be anyone who is a sincere seeker of truth,
let them read John 6:22-71.

Part of it states, 'Many of the disciples, when they heard it, said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?"

Another Part says, 'After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer walked with him.'

If there be anyone who is a sincere seeker of truth,
let them read John 6:22-71.

Part of it states, 'Many of the disciples, when they heard it, said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?"

Another Part says, 'After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer walked with him.'

If there be anyone who is a sincere seeker of truth,
let them read John 6:22-71.

If there be anyone who is a sincere seeker of truth,
let them read John 6:22-71.

Please Read John 6:22-71

If somebody is not sure of where he/she stands, he/she tend to try other methods.

Sally Quinn, a non-catholic, going to communion just shows her ignorance.

A lot of people claim to know God but in reality, they are still searching to know God.

A biscuit turning into a body of Christ (transubstantiation)? Billions of people in this world are that IGNORANT.

Five minutes after they ate that "holy" biscuit, it will turn to feces. HOLY FECES.

The bread Christ was referring to was HIS WORD. His Words, the bible, is the bread of life and not some idiot biscuits.

If Christ meant it to be his literal body, the Apostles would have sliced his body and eat them when he died.

When can false religion LEARN? WHY ARE THEY SO DUMB?

This notion that communion is only for Catholics is pure bunk. Holy communion is a gift from God for all to share. Restricting it to only Catholics perpetuates a clubhouse mentality that is detrimental to the faith (the same must be said of protestants that practice the same intolerance).

I am a Lutheran who takes communion at my step-father's Catholic church whenever I visit there. My faith is well known to the priest who has always welcomed, and never, criticized my participation. If only all churches were as welcoming.

Sally, I admire you candid reflections on this subject and enjoy your columns.

E Favourite, there is no such thing as an "abortion right." The innocent third party is a child which is not in a position to grant that right to its mother. Legal abortion is about protecting the health and life of a mother if she sought abortion from quacks. Even then abortion should be restricted to the earliest stages possible and not without offering the woman other alternatives.

Paul wrote "This will indicate to the Priest that you would like a blessing. "

Blessing? For what? by sheer hocus-pocus? What power do these people have. Can't a son go directly to his Father (God) to ask for his blessing?

AHH, THE STUPIDITY AND RACKETEERING IS SO AMAZING!!

E Favourite, being a Catholic who supports abortion and gay rights while believing in the main Christian beliefs of the Catholic Church, which would be the Sacraments and the Creed, is completely different to an atheist who mocks the idea of religions going through the motions in a Catholic Church. Don't you agree? No Catholic cares if you go through the rituals meaninglessly. No Catholic loses anything, neither do you gain anything. You left the Church because you found the rituals meaningless, remember?

Sally: In the future, I would suggest that you proceed in line during Communion and cross your arms across your chest. This will indicate to the Priest that you would like a blessing. It is a way of participating while being respectful of the Eucharist.

Sally:

I found your article very touching. Although I do not agree with your decision to take Communion at Tim's funeral, I wholly understand it and sympathise as well. I had found myself in a very similar situation when, out of curiosity of my family history, I decided to attend a Catholic Mass.

Although I was baptised Catholoic, my father never took me to Mass. My only memory of my father telling me anything about Communion was during a boy scout camping trip. He never had a religious conversation with me in my life, yet here he was telling me about the Last Supper. His whole point, however, was why I shouldn't take Communion with the others.

Ever since then, I longed to know what that experience was like. The day I attended as an adult, I couldn't resist and took Communion with all the others.

I asked my dad about it later and he told me that he knew there had been a lot of changes since Vatican II and maybe this was one of them. Being divorced, he never attended Mass himself.

The more I attended, however, the more I wanted to make sure I was doing things right. I learned about RCIA and how I should go through that before I could be considered to be Confirmed. My RCIA instructor told me that it was okay that I had received Communion before, but that I should not do it again until after my Confirmation. I trusted his judgment which was really the judgment of the Church, and I'm glad I did.

Now I understand that the longing I was feeling was the longing I had to be united with my family through Christ. The emotional draw to this experience is unmistakable, yet it should not be taken lightly.

One should always remember that Communion literally means sharing a "Common Union." In order to truly do this, one has to have a good understanding of Church teachings and traditions. The Church is so careful about Communion because that's how it can be confident that it is being build upon solid rock -- not shifting sands. If Communion were allowed to those who were not united in a Common Union, divisions would begin to occur within the Church. And as an early Church father stated: All divisions should be seen as the beginnings of evil.

So in conclusion, Sally: Don't take it too personally. The Church does this because it cares about you and loves you; as it cares about all who are in the Church. As with any discipline, it is not and end in itself but a means for a greater end: Unity in and through Christ.

Our friend Tim is part of that Union -- that Communion. You can feel yourself being called to truly know that which he loved so much. I pray that we can all listen and hear His call as clearly as you seem to have that day.

Peace be with you. Amen.

I think this will help you understand Tims Love for the Eucharist.

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/english_pdf/Lanciano2.pdf

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/english_pdf/Lanciano1.pdf

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/engl_mir.htm

It's irrelevant to me if someone thinks one thing I do with respect to Catholicism is "OK" and something else is "absurd." I don't answer to an arbitrary concept of what's right by God or the Catholic church.

If I were still Catholic, I'd be a "cafeteria Catholic," like most are -- according to the polls that show a majority of catholics supporting gay and abortion rights.

TRANSUBSTANTION? If atheists are acting like fools to think that all the wonders of this world just exist all by themselves, CATHOLICISM is as IDIOTIC as these people to think that biscuits would truly become the body of Christ.

Imagine, they can make biscuits into the body of God where they can't even transform it into anything as the flesh of the lowly WORM.

WHAT BLINDNESS !! WHAT STUPIDITY !!

The apocalypse is just around the corner set to be fulfilled by the FOOLS of the world.

****

A Quote from Jose Rizal

" Consider well that kind of religion that they are teaching you. See whether it is the will of the God or according to the teachings of Christ that the poor be succored and those who suffer alleviated. Consider what they are preaching to you, the object of the sermon, what is behind the masses, novenas, rosaries, scapularies, images, miracles, candles, belts, etc., etc.; which they daily keep before your minds; ears and eyes; jostling, shouting, and coaxing, investigate whence they came and whether they go and then compare that religion with the pure religion of Christ and see whether the pretended observance of the life of Christ does not remind of the fat mik cow or the fattened pig, which is encouraged to grow fat not through love of the animal, but not grossly mercenary motives. "

"

Wake up call!!!

What is being taught in graduate theology classes at some large Catholic universities:

Communion is not Jesus' physical Body and Blood since Jesus would now exist as a spirit therefore has no physical form.

Transubstantiation is still a Catholic doctrine, but it never meant a literal transforming of bread and wine into the physical body and blood of
Jesus. "Substance" in medieval philosophy referred to the essence of a thing
and was not reducible to material appearance.

Transubstantiation is a way of
expressing belief that Jesus is SOME HOW present in the consecrated bread and wine in a special way. Some theologians believe that transignificantion" would be a better term today than transubstantiation.

Holy Communion is reserved for those Catholics who are in good standing with the Catholic Church. Yes many who are not in good standing as mentioned in the above article received but they are only fooling themselves. You say, "WWJD"? Jesus would say "be obedient". The Pope, Magistarium, the Church, did not make these rules. Jesus Christ Himself set up these guidelines. It says in scripture if we Eat His Body and Drink His Blood and we are in sin, we will bring condemnation and sickness upon ourselves. Yes, those who are disobedient as John Kerry, Pelosi, Gulianni, Ted Kennedy and all other who do, bring this upon themselves. It makes me sick to see them abusing Jesus like this. Also when I read about you trying this out, I felt so sad. I totally agree with Donohue. When Catholics receive Communion, they not only believe (or should) that they are receiving Jesus, not a symbol, but also are one with the Holy, Catholic Church, the Holy Father and the Magistarium of the Church. Do you believe in the Pope as your Headship? Then you should become Catholic. We also can not go into another church and receive communion. We do not experience with their beliefs. Our Jesus is so abused in the Sacrament of Holy Communion, especially at funerals. My heart just aches. If Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict gave Communion to the said above, then our Lord Himself guided them to. I do not second guess their actions. That is how we are to believe in our Holy Father. Tim would have also told you - "Just pray for me. This is the doctine of our Church."

E Favourite, my sincere apologies if you go to Church only to attend funerals. That is something else. But having been a Catholic and rejected it, receiving Communion without any belief in God knowing what it means in a Catholic Church is still absurd. Since it doesn't mean anything to you or anyone else why bother?

E Favourite, if you didn't mock religions in general and Catholicism in particular, what objection should I or anyone else have in you going to Catholic Church or any Church for that matter? Btw, Jesus came down hard on hypocrites and those who pretended to pray in public to create an impression, remember? I personally have no objections to you attending Church when you feel good about it. But since you have joined ranks with those who want to abolish religions, the whole thing going through religions motions for sentimental reasons is somewhat absurd. At least to me.

this is a message taken from True Life In God,


"May they be all one, just as, Father, you are in me and I am in you, so that the world may believe it was you that sent me." (Jn 17: 21)

Jesus speaks:
Orthodox! Catholics! Protestants! You all belong to Me! You are all One in My Eyes! I do not make any distinction...

My Vassula draw three iron bars with a head on the top

these represent the Roman Catholics, the Orthodox and the Protestants, I want them to bend and unite but these iron bars are still very stiff and cannot bend on their own, so I shall have to come to them with My Fire and with the power of My Flame upon them they shall turn soft to bend and mould into one solid iron bar, and My Glory will fill the whole earth

Message of October 27, 1987


to read more www.tlig.org.or hear www.tligvideo.org

This is an issue that has been discussed for decades if not centuries. I would just like to add that there are undoubtedly millions of faithful Catholics who really would have no problem with Ms. Quinn receiving communion under the motivations that she described. After all, Jesus himself said: "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath."

This is an issue that has been discussed for decades if not centuries. I would just like to add that there are undoubtedly millions of faithful Catholics who really would have no problem with Ms. Quinn receiving communion under the motivations that she described. After all, Jesus himself said: "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath."

Hello "Anonymous" aka familiar Catholic poster who uses the UK spelling of my name.

In answer to your question, "Sounds like fun, doesn't it?" Yes, my visits to the catholic church are fun these days, even though they're usually on the sad occasion of a family funeral.

It's fun for numerous reasons:

- I'm going there willingly, without threat of mortal sin for not attending regularly.

- I'm surrounded by loving family.

- it's interesting (if not always heartening) to see what changes have been made in the church since my last visit.

- I can laugh off insensitive priests because I no longer have an obligation to pretend to look up to them.

- I can relive fond memories of going to church every Sunday with my Dad, the warmest, kindest man who ever lived.

- I can go to communion, thinking of my Dad, watching my remaining family members partaking in an old ritual, thinking of the priest I'm fooling (if he even gives a hoot) and the absence of the deadening guilt the church tried to impose on me as an innocent youth.

On another subject --

Joseph Wagner - I very much appreciate your comments. It's good to know there are still Catholics like you out there. You're certainly in good standing with me, and obviously with your daughters as well. They are the ones who count.

Didn't Jesus say "love one another?"

I,too, am a devout Catholic and felt the presence of Jesus at my first Communion when I became six years old. I "visited" church often during the summer days when school was not in session.

Today I buried my son, Bill, who has been paralyzed for 20 years and could move only his eyes. For seven years, he slept in a recliner instead of a bed.

At his funeral Mass this morning, I noted that there were many non-Catholics who lined up to receive Communion, and I thought it likely it was as much out of respect to Bill, as they'd known him. Myself, I often thought of him as a victim soul who offered himself as a witness to the love and trust in Jesus Christ. He LOVED so well.

,, I highly recommend web site www.tlig.org. Stands for True Life In God. If you want to hear about these messages,you may go to www.tligvideo.org. If you are sincere about "True Unity", you will find it, and a wealth of Spritiual knowledge in these writings. May the Peace of Jesus be with YOU.

I do not know if you got my message just sent, so will re send,, I highly recommend web site www.tlig.org. Stands for True Life In God. If you want to hear about these messages,you may go to www.tligvideo.org. If you are sincere about "True Unity", you will find it, and a wealth of Spritiual knowledge in these writings. May the Peace of Jesus be with YOU.

Sally, If you wait until the fall- this should help you understand the Catholic Church's goals:

Pope's Next Encyclical in the Works is Expected to Give Fresh Look at 21st Century-

Benedict XVI is reportedly working on his third encyclical this summer, which could be ready as early as this fall.

The Pope's secretary of state confirmed the existence of the document in an interview with the APCOM news agency last May. He even proposed a possible title: "Caritas in Veritate" (Charity in the Truth) and said this, the Holy Father's third encyclical, could be ready in the fall.

"For now, it is a hypothesis," Cardinal Bertone said. "I don't want to say that the title will definitely be this -- for now, yes, and for the moment, it's this idea, but later, a successive inspiration could arrive."

According to the secretary of state, the encyclical "comes and goes from the Pope's desk, because he doesn't want to repeat common concepts of the Church's social doctrine, but wants to offer something original, according to the challenges of today."

"We could think of the great problem of globalization and the other problems that afflict the international community, such as the food crisis and climate change," the cardinal said. "These are themes that could motivate an evaluation and commentary from the Church from the moral point of view."

Sneak preview?

The Holy Father may have given an insight into the themes of his encyclical when he addressed the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences last May. Their meeting was focused on "Pursuing the Common Good: How Solidarity and Subsidiarity Can Work Together."

He cited the Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church in noting that the academy's session was devoted to examining the interrelationship between "four fundamental principles of Catholic social teaching: the dignity of the human person, the common good, subsidiarity and solidarity."

"These key realities," the Pontiff said, "which emerge from the living contact between the Gospel and concrete social circumstances, offer a framework for viewing and addressing the imperatives facing mankind at the dawn of the 21st century, such as reducing inequalities in the distribution of goods, expanding opportunities for education, fostering sustainable growth and development, and protecting the environment."

Benedict XVI suggested that "we can initially sketch the interconnections between these four principles by placing the dignity of the person at the intersection of two axes: one horizontal, representing 'solidarity' and 'subsidiarity,' and one vertical, representing the 'common good.' This creates a field upon which we can plot the various points of Catholic social teaching that give shape to the common good."

Nevertheless, though the graphic gives an idea of the principles' interweaving, the Pope stated, "the reality is much more complex."

And he said that solidarity and subsidiarity must be placed within the context of the Trinity. He further proposed that these two principles "have the potential to place men and women on the path to discovering their definitive, supernatural destiny."

He added: "The eyes of faith permit us to see that the heavenly and earthly cities interpenetrate and are intrinsically ordered to one another, inasmuch as they both belong to God the Father, who is 'above all and through all and in all.'"

"At the same time, faith places into sharper focus the due autonomy of earthly affairs, insofar as they are 'endowed with their own stability, truth, goodness, proper laws and order.'"

http://www.zenit.org/article-23165?l=english

Dear Sally Quinn, Don't worry about receiving Communion at Tim Russert's funeral. I am a cradle Catholic and I think you did the right thing and I think Jesus was glad you came to the altar to receive Him. He knows where you are and He loves you and accepts you where you are. I know the institutional Church has a problem in this area, but I really believe it is their problem. I don't think the risen Christ minds. Surely your heart tells you all is well as Julianna of Norwich would have said. Peace. Sincerely, Natalie Cornell

I am distressed by Ms. Quinn's receiving the Eucharist because she knew that only Catholic's can receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus by partaking of Holy Communion. Had she been unaware of the Truths of the Catholic faith and made an honest mistake, we could understand and pray that she never do it again. But she knew it was wrong. She did it out of love and respect for Tim. Ms. Quinn is missing the point. What about Jesus? We Catholics do not receive the Eucharist because we respect a friend. We receive it because we truly believe that through transubstantiation the bread and wine change into the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus. She does not believe this (or else she would become a Catholic). Jesus himself tells us in the Bible that "truly truly, my flesh is real food and by blood is real drink, unless you eat of the flesh of the son of man and drink His blood, you shall have no life in you". The Bible also tells us that if we unworthily receive Holy Communion, we bring condemnation on ourselves. Ms. Quinn caused a grave scandal by knowingly taking Holy Communion. And she showed no respect for Jesus Christ. I am also sure Mr. Russert would not feel good that she said she did it out of respect for him. I pray she understands, asks our Lord for forgiveness, and looks into learning about the Catholic faith. Then she can become Catholic and receive our Lord in the Eucharist daily. I do and could not live without Him.

I Highly recommend to go to the web site www.tlig.org. or you can hear at www.tligvideo.org, If you are sincere, {that which I believe you are} you will find the answers to your questions, as many of all faith backgrounds and cultures have. Peace to You . Kathie Jackson

Sally darling, Jesus loves you, and that is the most important thing of all. You have shown great respect for our beliefs, and the faith that Tim loved so much.

May you be richly blessed in your quest.
Maureen O'Connor, Venice, Florida

Holy communion is Jesus. It's His body and Blood. He said so many ways many times. Study St. Paul's words that state that you are guilty of Christ's body and blood if you take it innappropriately. Yet God is love. God is merciful. If you took communion in pride, bad news for you. If you did so out of not fully knowing the truth, God knows. Peace be with you.

E Favourite, as an ex-Catholic, when you go through the motions of a Catholic Church, while mocking Catholicism and belief in God at every turn, whom are you fooling but yourself? So every time you are in the Catholic Church attending Mass and receiving Holy Communion say to yourself many many times: Here I am fooling myself and myself alone. I mock the Church and any belief in God but I am the hypocrite would like to take advantage of anything good it has to offer. Sounds like fun, doesn't it?

The problem here is lack of understanding. Holy Communion in the Catholic church is not something to be received to pay respects to any human being, that is not its purpose. The word communion speaks for itself. If one does not belong to the Catholic church and believe in all its teachings, they are NOT in communion with that church. We Catholics believe wholeheartedly that it IS the Body and Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, in reality. Not a symbol or rememberance. Receiving it without that belief is a desecration of Jesus Himself.
Sally Quinn is deceived if she thinks what she did is O.K. If, she truly believes it is what it is, then why does she not join the Catholic church?

Wow. Sally Quinn studies and studies all different faiths, but never came across some basic tenets of the Catholic church? Then, having violated them, out of some sort of sentimental welling of emotions at Tim Russert's funeral, she goes on and on, justifying herself for not respecting a religion that he deeply believed in.

I'm not Catholic, I'm Episcopalian. But I've always known that Holy Communion is a sacrament. Not a funeral snack to make the participant feel good. Either Ms. Quinn hasn't done as much studying as she claims, or she's just a narcissist who wants to write about "faith," without trying to understand those who have it, of whatever sort.

This is the most hypocritical column I've read in a long time. I think Ms. Quinn should go back to her snarky style profiles and leave real thinking, and real feeling, and real faith, to others. She isn't even a good writer, if she ever was one.

And, I agree: Tim Russert would not have appreciated her markish attempt to feel "in the moment" at a serious religous service that was designed to pray for the soul of the departed.

Dear Ms Quinn-
Receiving the Holy Eucharist in the Catholic Church, is not about "your feelings", or even in an altruistic sense, not even about respect for the life of Mr Russert, however noble the intent.A person able to receive Communion must be a practicing Catholic in a state of grace (ie without unconfessed mortal sin ) The reason that a person must be a PRACTICING Catholic is because that person receiving MUST believe that they are truly receiving the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus(not just a 'feel good' symbol) and believe all the tenants of the Catholic faith- that includes the Church's position on abortion ,contraception, euthanasia, embryonic stem-cell research, homosexuality, marriage, et al. If a person who does not believe what the Church teaches (that includes lapsed Catholics as well as non-catholics)chooses to receive Holy Communion unfortunately dishonor Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament as well as harm themselves spiritually. The Apostle Paul states that he(or she) who eats and drinks the Body and Blood of the Lord unworthily brings condemnation upon themselves. Hence, to prevent someone not in union with the Catholic faith from receiving the Holy Eucharist is to protect that soul from further spiritual demise. If ,Ms Quinn, you do beleive in the full revelation of the Catholic Church and wish to receive Our Lord in Communion, please take the RCIA class and join the Catholic Church!!!

CATHOLICS WHO KEEP BLOGGING HERE ARE REWARDING QUINN

FOR DOING SOMETHING SHE SHOULDN'T HAVE DONE IN THE

FIRST PLACE. IF YOU THINK SHE SHOULD CONTINUE

TO BENEFIT FROM HER "HOLY COMMUNION" BY YOUR SUPPORT

OF THIS BLOG, WHY NOT JUST SEND HER A CHECK?"

Hello

I am a Catholic, and in good standing (I think) with the Catholic Faith. I fully agree with Sally Quinn. I was once a Eucharistic Minister, and I was never advised to skip anyone who came to Communion. I also knew people that were no Catholics who came to me and I gave them Holy Communion, and my conscience was not disturbed with this action. My own daughters, are no longer active Catholics as they had bad marriages, and it wound up in divorces, so some joined other Religious groups. When we do attend Catholic services for "whatever" and they are in my company, they always take Communion, and they probably do it because they want to, and also because they love me, and I am deeply delighted that they do. It is not a casual act when people receive Holy Communion. Jesus would not deny them this Communion.

With Love and Prayers

Joseph J. Wagner I have tried to go to daily Communion for over 50 years.

Sally, Sally, Sally. Shame on you for playing the "I Didn't Know" etude. You have been around D.C. and journalists a longlong time. You certainly were aware of the brouhaha caused by Clinton taking Communion. So please spare us the 'innocent' tap dance routine.

Seems to me that this 'non mea culpa' is designed less as an apology than as a let- me- rub- their- noses-in-it neon sign of your disrespect for Catholicism.

Well, I'm glad to see some nice Catholics have turned up here - the type I remember from my youth and still have today as family and friends.

However, for those Catholics who are horribly offended by Sally Quinn taking communion, I do think that they should be equally offended by the many Catholics not-in-good-standing who take communion every Sunday.

How about setting up some sort of monitoring system - maybe making people walking up to the communion rail swear on a bible first that they are free of mortal sin. And any parishioner who sees someone approaching the altar rail whom they KNOW is a sinner should publicly prevent that person from receiving the body and blood of Christ, don't you think?

And if you see an unfamiliar face - visitors perhaps, how about making them prove they're catholic, maybe by reciting the Hail Mary really fast, or showing their baptismal certificate.

But then, I've got one of those and I'm an atheist!

Yes, stricter Eucharistic enforcement mechanisms are required. Sally Quinn is just the tip of the iceberg.

One point of clarification: Ms Quinn states that Catholics who marry "outside their faith" are not to receive Communion, and cites Rudy Giuliani's case. Her wording may give the impression that Catholics who marry non-Catholics cannot receive Communion (which is certainly not the case). If by "outside their faith" Ms Quinn means Catholics who enter into a marriage not recognized by the Church (as with Mr. Giuliani, whose marriage is not recognized by the Church because he is already married to someone else) then she is correct. I am sorry that this issue is being spun in terms of "desecration", because clearly that was not Ms Quinn's intent in receiving Communion. But for us Catholics, reception of Communion not only unites us to Christ Himself, but to His Body, the Catholic Church. It is both a personal spiritual action and a public expression of sharing the faith of the Catholic Church, which Ms Quinn does not ... yet.

Salome,

We have endured here many, many outpourings of Spidey's despite and hatred. But I agree with you, he has now spoken blasphemy, and cast forth into the slime our Lord's Last Supper.

Spidey never talks about the words of Jesus. He only spews hatred, not love.

"Posted on July 10, 2008 18:48
Jason Liens:
Sally, I am a Catholic and Mr.Donohue does not speak for the Catholic church. Its actually possible that he may only speak for himself and the few in his office. You musthave your first Holy Communion in the Catholic Faith to receive Communion, that is of course after you are Baptized. I think God will let you off the hook on this one as you are making ideas available to people through your friendship with Tim Russert that are very positive for the Church and its mission.
You might sometimes wonder who Tim Russert really was. He ran "Meet The Press" and had a couple dozen other things going on. However, why did so many take notice of his death. It was a heavy loss for all of us. Be Assured that Tim smiled down when you took this Communion.
And of course I know where he is. Not everybody gets to be special but Tim was just that and it was noticed. Tim, please pray for all of us that we get through January 20th, 2009 without becoming involved in WW3."

tim russert supported a party that supports abortion, Tim Russert is not in heaven and if GOD forgives him might end up in purgatory for millions of our years for that support. He and all like him for pay for they support...GOD forgives but doesn't forget and people still have to be punished for their sins...

"Posted on July 10, 2008 18:48
Jason Liens:
Sally, I am a Catholic and Mr.Donohue does not speak for the Catholic church. Its actually possible that he may only speak for himself and the few in his office. You musthave your first Holy Communion in the Catholic Faith to receive Communion, that is of course after you are Baptized. I think God will let you off the hook on this one as you are making ideas available to people through your friendship with Tim Russert that are very positive for the Church and its mission.
You might sometimes wonder who Tim Russert really was. He ran "Meet The Press" and had a couple dozen other things going on. However, why did so many take notice of his death. It was a heavy loss for all of us. Be Assured that Tim smiled down when you took this Communion.
And of course I know where he is. Not everybody gets to be special but Tim was just that and it was noticed. Tim, please pray for all of us that we get through January 20th, 2009 without becoming involved in WW3."

tim russert supported a party that supports abortion, Tim Russert is not in heaven and if GOD forgives him might end up in purgatory for millions of our years for that support. He and all like him for pay for they support...GOD forgives but doesn't forget and people still have to be punished for their sins...

"Posted on July 10, 2008 18:48
Jason Liens:
Sally, I am a Catholic and Mr.Donohue does not speak for the Catholic church. Its actually possible that he may only speak for himself and the few in his office. You musthave your first Holy Communion in the Catholic Faith to receive Communion, that is of course after you are Baptized. I think God will let you off the hook on this one as you are making ideas available to people through your friendship with Tim Russert that are very positive for the Church and its mission.
You might sometimes wonder who Tim Russert really was. He ran "Meet The Press" and had a couple dozen other things going on. However, why did so many take notice of his death. It was a heavy loss for all of us. Be Assured that Tim smiled down when you took this Communion.
And of course I know where he is. Not everybody gets to be special but Tim was just that and it was noticed. Tim, please pray for all of us that we get through January 20th, 2009 without becoming involved in WW3."

tim russert supported a party that supports abortion, Tim Russert is not in heaven and if GOD forgives him might end up in purgatory for millions of our years for that support. He and all like him for pay for they support...GOD forgives but doesn't forget and people still have to be punished for their sins...

Ms. Quinn -- Catholic doctrines around holy communion are the very opposite of the "open mind/open heart" paradigm you are trying to live by. Taking communion entails the acceptance of a set of beliefs that are, in their essence, quite exclusive in nature. Communities, and especially religious communities, only have meaning in the context of boundaries; they are defined in part by what the aren't.

Anyone can be a Catholic but that isn't the same as saying that anyone can partake of Catholic sacraments. First comes the acceptance of doctrine and authority, then entrance into the community, then the sacraments. It is important to get these things in the right order.

PS I am not a Catholic.

In my last post to Bob Franks, I meant to write

There is neither good will nor good faith evident in Quinn's two blogs on her "holy communion."

I urge Catholics to stop posting here. There are many venues in which we can discuss the Eucharist with in good will and with good faith.

By taking communion you committed a great sin. You have said you do not believe so why do it.
it may come back to bite you in ways you could never imagine...imagine a point in time in the future when things change, for the better or worse is not up to me...since you are host of on faith you should have known better...I bet you are also pro choice aka genocide baby killer supporter, you are a liberal, of course you are...time will tell what becomes of it...

Bob Franks

"(You really should just say you're sorry and move on.)"

If you mean me, I'm not sorry. I stand by my post.
This thread is divisive, and I urge Catholics who continue to post here to cease. There is neither good will nor good will evident in Quinn's two blogs on her "holy communion."

If you are Catholic, Bob, you should stop posting here. It's unseemly.

Sally, Tim Russert is dead and incapable of knowing or caring you took a wafer.

As far as the RC Church goes, this is the same crew that facilitated predatory pedophile priests preying on young children. I would not worry about what they say.

Dear Ms Quinn-I respect your decision.

"But all those who continue to post here and support her in this disgusting enterprise, letting
this opportunist divide us should be ashamed as well. There are many arenas for Catholics to have genuine,intelligent discussions of the Eucharist. This blog isn't one of them."

Dale, there's nothing to discuss on the Eucharist as far as Catholics are concerned -- it is a dogma and a pillar of the Church. It's a done deal.

As far as dividing us, the Church is the longest existing institution in history and has seen the fall of the Roman Empire, the rise of European nationalism, was present during the journeys of explorers like Columbus, watched Hitler die, and saw Russian atheism (Communism) collapse. It will survive one little Sally Quinn - she will not divide us. Jesus said the Catholic Church which He founded will survive to the end of the world, and even the gates of hell would not prevail against it. So Sally has no chance, no matter what she might think. Tell it to God, Sally.

(You really should just say you're sorry and move on.)

Another Anonymous writes to MH

"Speaking for myself, alone, I find this blog of Quinn's narcissistic and tiresome. I don't know what her point was in upsetting people, except perhaps, to get a lot of folks to post for the sake of maintaining her blog and getting attention.

She could easily have discussed her quesion with Cardinal Egan (I believe she has a home in New York) or with a secular Catholic ethicist.

Why people are giving credence to Quinn's self-indulgence is beyond me."

Ditto. Emphatically ditto. I'm Catholic, which
may be why I find Quinn's narcissism, self-indulgence, and opportunism in posting this blog so offensive. If she really had questions, she could have taken them to Archbishop Wuerl. Instead, she chose to stir up controversy, hurt, and upset people. She should be ashamed of herself.

But all those who continue to post here and support her in this disgusting enterprise, letting
this opportunist divide us should be ashamed as well. There are many arenas for Catholics to have genuine,intelligent discussions of the Eucharist. This blog isn't one of them.

whoa sally.
why WOULD you fully "participate" in ANY religious service if you are not a member ?
In memory of your Catholic friend isn't really a valid reason esp. when one doesn't know ,understand or believe that this truly IS the Body of Christ.
Stating that this one and that one (not in good standing within Catholic teachings), were give Communion doesn't justify a thing.
All parties involved will definitely answer to the ultimate HigherAuthority.

what would Jesus do ? well sally,read the Gospels and find out what Jesus instituted and read about the early history of the Catholic Church to find out if simply everybody "in attendence" was given Communion.

So it was you guys who left us, not us who exclude you.

And I forgot to mention, of course you are welcome to come back at anytime if you change your minds and believe what Jesus said about His flesh and blood, and what He did by giving Peter the keys.

In fact, there's a whole bunch of C of E priests, bishops, and laity finding their way back to "Rome" right now over in England, due to the women bishop thing (which is another severe break from those teachings handed down from the Twelve who were taught by Jesus directly).

God bless.

From what I have observed, Tim Russert was very well know and actually quite popular. Sally Quinn here states she was a "dear friend." Ms. Quinn is not quite as well known and popular as Mr. Russert was.

What else are dear friends for?

Dear Sally, the best way to truly understand the Christian Religion is, after having learned the different languages used in the mediterranean regions one century before and two centuries after CE, to read all the available historical documents in their original texts. It is an long and demanding task, but this is what Robert McNair
Price has done and has illuminated us in his books.
You'll learn more in his books, than by joining the believers and participating in their services.
Also to understand Religions, try to get an Degree in Human behavior; you'll be surprised to find how easy is to brainwash anyone under the age of 22.

Folks,
It must be very hard for an opinion maker like Ms. Quinn to admit her humanity and say "I'm sorry." Although Ms. Quinn did note the (utter)impropriety of her remark that she had been nauseated the first time she took communion (at an evangelical church), that limited apology had nothing to do with the Russert funeral or with her decision to take Catholic Communion "transubstantiation notwithstanding."

As to the Catholic Church, she apparently stands unrepentant. (Is this another case of: "I can do no other"?) She still refuses to admit that it was a deeply offensive and incredibly ignorant act on her part. Instead, she ended her reflection on the reaction to her earlier report about receiving Communion "transubstantiation notwithstanding" with this opinion-maker's "advice":

"A good start would be to study, to learn, to talk to people and to have an open heart and an open mind. That’s what I am trying to do. I highly recommend it."

Not good enough. The second quoted sentence should have been: "That is what I should have done before considering taking communion at the Russert funeral."

Sally, you really need to drop your omniscience shtick and just give the Catholic Church a simple apology. It would be good for the soul!

Well MH, thanks for the blessings and kind words. I believe though, that those disciples who do not believe in the Real Presence are the ones in John's Gospel who left Jesus. The Episcolians (and the C of E amongst others) walked away from Jesus, not believing Him when He said it was His flesh and that we must eat it in order to live. We (the Twelve) stayed (hence we hold the teachings of the Twelve, handed down to us, on equal footing with the Word).
We are descendants of the Twelve who stayed, others are represented by the disciples who walked away. I know it is hard to hear it, but it is what it is, in truth.

So it was you guys who left us, not us who exclude you.

Again, God bless you.

MH:

Speaking for myself, alone, I find this blog of Quinn's narcissistic and tiresome. I don't know what her point was in upsetting people, except perhaps, to get a lot of folks to post for the sake of maintaining her blog and getting attention.

She could easily have discussed her quesion with Cardinal Egan (I believe she has a home in New York) or with a secular Catholic ethicist.

Why people are giving credence to Quinn's self-indulgence is beyond me.

I repeat my recommendation: Let her go out for Chinese food after church. I would add, though, that she could keep it to herself.

Btw. I'm Catholic, but guess what? Not everyone who blogs here is. In fact, some aren't even Christian. What about them? You might want to think about that.

I am 56 years old and for various reasons never went through the process of my first communion as a child. I am trying now to take the necessary classes to achieve that goal. I am very offended by the fact that you took communion. On Sundays I sit while my two youngest children get up and take communion. my husband also sits besides me due to the fact that when we married, he was a divorced catholic. So, as much as we both would love to join our children in communion, we refrain, each for our own reason. that those who are not catholic can so cavalierly get up and receive communion just so they can honor their friend is disrespectful to those of us who respect the rules of our religion. I cannot speak for other catholics who bend the rules but, that should not give liberty to all others to do the same for their own reason. that you so lightly took such an action without even considering whether it was appropriate to do so or not speaks more to your selfish wants and needs than to your wanting to honor a friend who may not even have approved.

I am 56 years old and for various reasons never went through the process of my first communion as a child. I am trying now to take the necessary classes to achieve that goal. I am very offended by the fact that you took communion. On Sundays I sit while my two youngest children get up and take communion. my husband also sits besides me due to the fact that when we married, he was a divorced catholic. So, as much as we both would love to join our children in communion, we refrain, each for our own reason. that those who are not catholic can so cavalierly get up and receive communion just so they can honor their friend is disrespectful to those of us who respect the rules of our religion. I cannot speak for other catholics who bend the rules but, that should not give liberty to all others to do the same for their own reason. that you so lightly took such an action without even considering whether it was appropriate to do so or not speaks more to your selfish wants and needs than to your wanting to honor a friend who may not even have approved.

Dear Sister Sal,

Nice try, but communion at the altar is supposed to be with God, not Tim.

You did not answer the question of whether you accept the doctrine of trans-substantiation. Catholic or not, you are not supposed to take communion unless you believe you are literally taking the body of Christ into your own. Then there's the question of being in a state of grace -- having asked for and received absolution for your sins from a Catholic priest and not having sinned before taking communion.

Your article does not say whether you were aware of that requirement either.

This is what happens when dogma is superimposed on our attempts to achieve spirituality. Frankly I stopped going to communion because I haven't felt as though I was in a state of grace since I was seven years old and made my first communion. I always felt so guilty after confession that there was no joy in it for me. So I stopped going to confession, communion, mass, and now I feel wonderful. An occaional prayer at sunset often lifts my spirits.

On reflection I believe you did the right thing.

Mr. Donohue has no authority--theological, ideological, or canonical to speak for the Catholic Church or Catholics. The "Catholic League" has no official standing of any kind. It is chiefly a web based outfit that requests donations, most likely to support Mr. Donohue's activities. Those activities appear to be limited to Mr. Donohue's inserting himself into controversies which invite maximum media coverage for himself. For that reason Mr. Donohue has apparently has been accepted by some in the American public as a spokesperson on "true" Catholic doctrine and opinions. Most relatively unconfused Catholics, I think, find him to be an embarrassment, giving personal witness to nothing more than his own ignorance and bigotry. His comments about Ms. Quinn are a very good example.

I think many of us who celebrate Tim's life would say that he allowed God's grace to flow through him to all those around him. That's the image we have of how Jesus lived, and lives, among us. In Christian tradition, Communion is a way for the faith community to physically experience the blessing of grace, however we explain it. If we talk about being qualified, then we're talking about deserving, and that's not grace. It is necessary for one to bring an open heart--that's something many of us long-time Christians struggle with. Perhaps Sally did not bring a long acquaintance with Jesus, but in her encounter with Communion she could see him through someone who did know him well.

Hey, all you "Anonymous" posters suggesting that Sally satisfy her desire for communion by snacking on pizza, grapes, Chinese food, etc.. are you Christian? Are you Catholic? If you're Catholic, will you go to Mass this Sunday, say confession, believe that puts you in enough of a state of grace to receive communion according to your doctrines, then leave the church building to continue your snide, disrespectful, arrogant, sniggering and really pretty childish treatment of your fellow brothers and sisters?
Shame on you.

AS A PRACTICING CATHOLIC, IT IS WITH RESPECT TO THAT I REPLY SALLY QUINN'S RESPONSE TO WHY SHE RECEIVED HOLY COMMUNION WHEN AT TIM RUSSERT'S FUNERAL, HOWEVER, WHEN I RECEIVE HOLY COMMUNION, I HAVE TO BE VERY SURE THAT I AM WORTHY TO RECEIVE MY LORD AND MY GOD. IF YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT COMMUNION MEANS THEN YOU SHOULD NO BE RECEIVING IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. HOLY EUCHURIST IN OUR FAITH IS THE MOST SACRED GIFT WE HAVE AND SHOULD BE RESPECTED WITH GREAT HOLINESS AND HUMILITY. IF YOU THINK YOU ARE HONORING TIM RUSSERT BY DEFILING THE MOST HOLY SACREMENT THEN YOU ARE SURELY MISTAKEN. ANYBODY CAN JUSTIFY WHY THEY FEEL THEY CAN BREAK ANY RULES THEY CARE TO JUST BECAUSE THEY WANT TO FEEL CLOSE TO THEM. HOW WOULD A CATHOLIC BE TREATED IF HE WOULD PRESUME TO VIOLATE ONE OF THE TENETS OF ISLAM? I AM NOT ISLAM THERFORE I DO NOT PARTICIPATE IN THEIR SERVICES. IF I WERE TO BE THERE FOR SOME REASON I WOULD NOT PRESUME TO VIOLATE THEIR LAWS. IN THE PROTESTANT CHURCHES I WOULD NOT PARTICIPATE, BECAUSE I DO NOT BELIVE WHAT THEY BELIEVE. YOU HAVE DONE US A DISERVICE BY MINIMIZING WHAT WE HOLD SACRED. I WILL PRAY FOR YOU TO HAVE THE VEIL OF IGNORANCE LIFTED FROM YOUR EYES.

After church, I think Sally should go out for Chinese food. Just my opinion.

I find it strange that people can say in a sense: "how can God come down and be taken into these dirty little bodies"?

The answer: God is not a prude...the devil is.
God made us, top to toes, and when he did, he declared it 'Good'.

our bodies are good...holy...made in HIS image.

It would be the devil who is most inflamed at the ludicrous notion that the All Holy God of the Universe would deign to be our heavenly bread and drink...indeed.

And such a God he refuses to serve.

Dina

Malcolm Muggeridge said at one point to Mother Teresa of Calcutta before he converted to the Catholic Faith, "Mother, if I believed what you Catholics believed about the Eucharist, I would fall on my knees each time I entered a Catholic Church and crawl in honor to the Tabernacle!" Mother responded, "Malcolm, the problem with you is that you know who Jesus is with your mind-intellect; but you just don't know who Jesus is with your heart!" In that moment, Mother Teresa picked up an infant and in one harmonious movement she wiped the baby's face. Malcolm had an epiphany and experienced the LOVE of God manifest for him - he had a profound moment of conversion and felt the love of Christ. He began to know Jesus with his heart and this heart-knowledge lead Malcolm to the Eucharistic Heart of Christ offered in daily Communion in the Catholic Liturgy. Malcolm Muggeridge was drawn to Jesus Christ in the Eucharist and he became a Catholic to receive Him in His Eucharistic Presence.

It saddens me to think of a lack of unity in the Body of Christ - and yet it exists with many misunderstandings. So let us share-dialogue for the sake of clarification and unity in love.

The Catholic teaching regarding the reception of the Eucharistic Presence of the Living Jesus Christ is meant to inform and prepare each person receiving Holy Communion - not to exclude, isolate nor condemn. But, in fact, if we receive that which is holy into ourselves unprepared - then our own unworthiness and sin condemns us! Reception of Jesus in the Eucharist therefore is done with the proper well-informed disposition of receiving - understanding that we are receiving a holy and Divine gift of God Himself. Asking our brothers and sisters who are not in the Catholic Church to refrain from receiving, is primarily done for three reasons. First - that the gift Christ offers in His REAL Presence should be taken with full knowledge and subsequent joyful, humble and purified receptivity and proper preparation. Second, that Christ is to be justly WORSHIPPED in His real Presence as the Holy Mass is a moment-celebration of praise and worship and true Communio with God and oneanother - and Third, refraint is requested to protect the person - so that the person improperly receiving Him will not bring condemnation upon themselves (that is especially if they are not in a state of grace) - that is if they are not prepared to receive Jesus Christ worthily.

I pray for Christian unity. I pray that we may all become one family of our Heavenly Father. I pray we all grow in our knowledge and love of Jesus, Truly Present in the Most Holy Eucharist through this online dialogue and this experience which Sally has shared. God's blessings and peace to you Sally in Our Lord Jesus Christ.

If Sally eats grapes in church, then maybe she could go out for a hamburger deluxe afterward. Sometimes, the beverage is included at no extra charge.

Since the church holds that an unworthy reception of Holy Communion brings not benefits but punishment, why not let those who like Ms. Quinn receive Communion improperly take the consequences?

AS A PRACTICING CATHOLIC, IT IS WITH RESPECT TO THAT I REPLY SALLY QUINN'S RESPONSE TO WHY SHE RECEIVED HOLY COMMUNION WHEN AT TIM RUSSERT'S FUNERAL, HOWEVER, WHEN I RECEIVE HOLY COMMUNION, I HAVE TO BE VERY SURE THAT I AM WORTHY TO RECEIVE MY LORD AND MY GOD. IF YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT COMMUNION MEANS THEN YOU SHOULD NO BE RECEIVING IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. HOLY EUCHURIST IN OUR FAITH IS THE MOST SACRED GIFT WE HAVE AND SHOULD BE RESPECTED WITH GREAT HOLINESS AND HUMILITY. IF YOU THINK YOU ARE HONORING TIM RUSSERT BY DEFILING THE MOST HOLY SACREMENT THEN YOU ARE SURELY MISTAKEN. ANYBODY CAN JUSTIFY WHY THEY FEEL THEY CAN BREAK ANY RULES THEY CARE TO JUST BECAUSE THEY WANT TO FEEL CLOSE TO THEM. HOW WOULD A CATHOLIC BE TREATED IF HE WOULD PRESUME TO VIOLATE ONE OF THE TENETS OF ISLAM? I AM NOT ISLAM THERFORE I DO NOT PARTICIPATE IN THEIR SERVICES. IF I WERE TO BE THERE FOR SOME REASON I WOULD NOT PRESUME TO VIOLATE THEIR LAWS. IN THE PROTESTANT CHURCHES I WOULD NOT PARTICIPATE, BECAUSE I DO NOT BELIVE WHAT THEY BELIEVE. YOU HAVE DONE US A DISERVICE BY MINIMIZING WHAT WE HOLD SACRED. I WILL PRAY FOR YOU TO HAVE THE VEIL OF IGNORANCE LIFTED FROM YOUR EYES.

AS A PRACTICING CATHOLIC, IT IS WITH RESPECT TO THAT I REPLY SALLY QUINN'S RESPONSE TO WHY SHE RECEIVED HOLY COMMUNION WHEN AT TIM RUSSERT'S FUNERAL, HOWEVER, WHEN I RECEIVE HOLY COMMUNION, I HAVE TO BE VERY SURE THAT I AM WORTHY TO RECEIVE MY LORD AND MY GOD. IF YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT COMMUNION MEANS THEN YOU SHOULD NO BE RECEIVING IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. HOLY EUCHURIST IN OUR FAITH IS THE MOST SACRED GIFT WE HAVE AND SHOULD BE RESPECTED WITH GREAT HOLINESS AND HUMILITY. IF YOU THINK YOU ARE HONORING TIM RUSSERT BY DEFILING THE MOST HOLY SACREMENT THEN YOU ARE SURELY MISTAKEN. ANYBODY CAN JUSTIFY WHY THEY FEEL THEY CAN BREAK ANY RULES THEY CARE TO JUST BECAUSE THEY WANT TO FEEL CLOSE TO THEM. HOW WOULD A CATHOLIC BE TREATED IF HE WOULD PRESUME TO VIOLATE ONE OF THE TENETS OF ISLAM? I AM NOT ISLAM THERFORE I DO NOT PARTICIPATE IN THEIR SERVICES. IF I WERE TO BE THERE FOR SOME REASON I WOULD NOT PRESUME TO VIOLATE THEIR LAWS. IN THE PROTESTANT CHURCHES I WOULD NOT PARTICIPATE, BECAUSE I DO NOT BELIVE WHAT THEY BELIEVE. YOU HAVE DONE US A DISERVICE BY MINIMIZING WHAT WE HOLD SACRED. I WILL PRAY FOR YOU TO HAVE THE VEIL OF IGNORANCE LIFTED FROM YOUR EYES.

AS A PRACTICING CATHOLIC, IT IS WITH RESPECT TO THAT I REPLY SALLY QUINN'S RESPONSE TO WHY SHE RECEIVED HOLY COMMUNION WHEN AT TIM RUSSERT'S FUNERAL, HOWEVER, WHEN I RECEIVE HOLY COMMUNION, I HAVE TO BE VERY SURE THAT I AM WORTHY TO RECEIVE MY LORD AND MY GOD. IF YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT COMMUNION MEANS THEN YOU SHOULD NO BE RECEIVING IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. HOLY EUCHURIST IN OUR FAITH IS THE MOST SACRED GIFT WE HAVE AND SHOULD BE RESPECTED WITH GREAT HOLINESS AND HUMILITY. IF YOU THINK YOU ARE HONORING TIM RUSSERT BY DEFILING THE MOST HOLY SACREMENT THEN YOU ARE SURELY MISTAKEN. ANYBODY CAN JUSTIFY WHY THEY FEEL THEY CAN BREAK ANY RULES THEY CARE TO JUST BECAUSE THEY WANT TO FEEL CLOSE TO THEM. HOW WOULD A CATHOLIC BE TREATED IF HE WOULD PRESUME TO VIOLATE ONE OF THE TENETS OF ISLAM? I AM NOT ISLAM THERFORE I DO NOT PARTICIPATE IN THEIR SERVICES. IF I WERE TO BE THERE FOR SOME REASON I WOULD NOT PRESUME TO VIOLATE THEIR LAWS. IN THE PROTESTANT CHURCHES I WOULD NOT PARTICIPATE, BECAUSE I DO NOT BELIVE WHAT THEY BELIEVE. YOU HAVE DONE US A DISERVICE BY MINIMIZING WHAT WE HOLD SACRED. I WILL PRAY FOR YOU TO HAVE THE VEIL OF IGNORANCE LIFTED FROM YOUR EYES.

Another Anonymous:

Re: Sally's dining in church

I don't mind if Sally eats grapes rather than a baked potato in church.

Sally, I am a Catholic and Mr.Donohue does not speak for the Catholic church. Its actually possible that he may only speak for himself and the few in his office. You musthave your first Holy Communion in the Catholic Faith to receive Communion, that is of course after you are Baptized. I think God will let you off the hook on this one as you are making ideas available to people through your friendship with Tim Russert that are very positive for the Church and its mission.
You might sometimes wonder who Tim Russert really was. He ran "Meet The Press" and had a couple dozen other things going on. However, why did so many take notice of his death. It was a heavy loss for all of us. Be Assured that Tim smiled down when you took this Communion.
And of course I know where he is. Not everybody gets to be special but Tim was just that and it was noticed. Tim, please pray for all of us that we get through January 20th, 2009 without becoming involved in WW3.

Bob Franks, you wrote "Arminu, MH, if you want the Eucharist, it is there for the taking if you first become Catholic. If you have a yearning for it, then perhaps Jesus is calling you to His one true faith? Consider it, at least, as a possibly. Some converts to Catholicism said their desire to receive the Eucharist led them to becoming Catholics, and they never looked back.
God bless."
Mr. Franks, I perceive that you are very faithful, and I perceive your comment as a sincere invitation. So I do respond with a sincere thank you. But I must also respond that non-Catholics like me reject the notion that Catholicism is Christ's one true faith. The Church began as One Church - but only sort of - 2000 years ago. Even then, there were many doctrinal differences which church leaders sought to end by assembling a few of the many existing scriptures into what we know as the Bible, and codifying acceptable theology into the Nicene Creed and other ancient expressions of faith. That is not to diminish those documents in any way, only to say that there really has never been one, and only one, way of believing and only one entry gate onto the path of salvation - except of course for Christ himself, who said "I am the way". Groups that split from the Catholic church over the years did so over political and doctrinal issues, but not because their essential faith was any different. Can you truly believe that Christ considers us less faithful because our label is different? Many non-Christians like myself yearn for greater unity with our Catholic brothers and sisters, but we will not join a church that excludes other faithful from the body of Christ. Why would we wish to join a church that refuses to welcome and sup with us as fellow Christians?
God bless you as well, and thank you for your discussion.

Sally,

For me it is a question of balance, the positive spirit which motivated you to take communion outweighed the the violating of the law of the Church. This is more than mere feeling; it involves coming to a judgment concerning what is appropriate. Under the legal view of the Church you were wrong; in God's eyes I believe it was acceptable. But who actually knows?

I would think and hope that most persons who are distributing communion would not refuse communion to someone who presents themselves. The reason is that it would greatly embarrass the person in front of the congregation.

The examples you give provide a good assortment of situations. However, and this is a small point, with Mayor Giuliani I believe the problem he has is that he remarried without an annulment from the Church and may not have been married in the Catholic Church. It would not necessarily be that he may be married to a non Catholic.

Communion is a sacred ceremony, but it seems to me that the intent of the one who partakes is the most important element. It also provides those who participate with a sense of community and spiritual connectedness. Those who are berating Sally seem to be ignoring these aspects of what must have been a very personal and perhaps confusing decision on her part. I think Tim would have understood these issues very well, and given her the benefit of the doubt. He had masterful insight into human nature.

Anon writes:

"Sally could bring fruit to church. For example, she could bring grapes in a plastic bag. That way she wouldn't make much noise, and she wouldn't get thirsty."

I think this could just wrap up this whole discussion. (Dale, a baked potato is a good idea but could get a little messy.)

Excellent thinking, Anon!

If you read scripture it is pretty clear that Jesus meant that His body is true food and His blood is true drink. The Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ - it is not symbolism or Christ would have told his disciples to come back, but He didn't because He meant what He said. The Catholic Church has always understood it this way and so has the Orthodox and other schismatic Churches from the beginning.

64 ""But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him."

66 "As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him."

John 6:53-68

53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.

58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."

59 These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

60 Then many of his disciples who were listening said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?"

61 Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, "Does this shock you?

62 What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

64 But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.

65 And he said, "For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father."

66 As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

67 Jesus then said to the Twelve, "Do you also want to leave?"

68 Simon Peter answered him, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

I just have to say that, after reading all of this nonsense, what really amazes me is that an otherwise highly intelligent Tim Russert actually bought all of this catholic baloney! Tim, you are now diminished in my eyes. I guess his father was just too overbearing for him to overcome his early and persistent brainwashing.

Was the wine always watered down? I seem to remember as an altar boy some priests kept bumping the cruet with the chalice to cue me to pour more wine ... more wine ... more wine! And I have known other priests to have become alcoholics after drinking wine mass after mass starting early every day and sometimes 4 or 5 times on Sunday! But I am old and may be they have watered it down since then. But don't they allow grape juice to be substituted for wine for priests who are alcoholics? I was under the impression they did. Do they water the grape juice down too?

Sally could bring fruit to church. For example, she could bring grapes in a plastic bag. That way she wouldn't make much noise, and she wouldn't get thirsty.

Thank you for sharing your story, Ms. Quinn. I, like you, search for meaning in my life and spend a lot of time studying religion. I grew up non-Catholic (not religious in fact) in a Catholic extended family, so there have been many times when i have sat through a mass and waited in my seat while all others took communion. As an adult, when I took interest in finding a religious community, I found it hard to be able to consider the Catholic church as an option, as not being able to participate in communion makes me feel unwelcome there. Even if I were to become a Catholic, the church's exclusion of non-Catholics from taking communion would make me feel uncomfortable. I am saddened by this, but it is how I feel.

I am in the middle of reading Karen Armstrong's The History of God and am finding it extremely fascinating. It makes me long for the days of the mystics, when feeling/experience was considered to be a central part of a religious practice, rather than following strict rules and dogma.

One final reflection - love is at the heart of religion, and I find it disheartening when religious leaders seem to be unloving (as in the tone of the Catholic League President’s comments). But I suppose we are all human.

Autonomous wrote:

"Although not a practicing Catholic for nearly 50 years now, it has been clear to me through many years of research that engaging in contemplative and meditative practice greatly enhances the chances of the practitioner reaching their spiritual goals - when compared to that same outcome through a mere reliance on fixed and largely unengaging rituals. I don't see this as true participatory faith.....but it is afterall what's available to most of the faithful."

By your reasoning, you declare that in order to reach a spiritual goal is dependent upon one being a contemplative, therefore children or those mentally impaired, according to your reasoning cannot enjoy spiritual fulfilment. Rubbish!

Congratulations, Spidey, you have exceeded your worst posts. What you have just posted is not merely offensive, it is utterly sick. Please seek professional help.

If you read scripture it is pretty clear that Jesus meant that His body is true food and His blood is true drink. The Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ - it is not symbolism or Christ would have told his disciples to come back, but He didn't because He meant what He said. The Catholic Church has always understood it this way and so has the Orthodox and other schismatic Churches from the beginning.

64 ""But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him."

66 "As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him."

John 6:53-68

53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.

58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."

59 These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

60 Then many of his disciples who were listening said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?"

61 Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, "Does this shock you?

62 What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

64 But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.

65 And he said, "For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father."

66 As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

67 Jesus then said to the Twelve, "Do you also want to leave?"

68 Simon Peter answered him, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

Mary wrote, regarding Sally Quinn's taking of communion:
"I have to ask though, wouldn't you observe rather than act in a Jewish temple, a Hindu service, a Mosque rather than participate because you did not understand?"

The thing is, Sally is Christian (at least she infers that she is, without stating it specifically). If indeed she is Christian, then she participated, as a Christian, in a Christian sacrament. It's not at all the same thing as her participating in a Jewish, Hindu or Muslim service. To say that it is the same thing, implies that you consider communion to be an exclusively Catholic sacrament (rather than a Christian sacrament), or non-Catholics to not really be Christian, or both. It also implies that you consider a Catholic identity more important than a Christian identity. I don't mean to single you out - I get the exact same feeling from a lot of other posts from Catholics on this board. Do all of you posting from this point of view really think that Christ only accepts followers who have been baptized in the Roman Catholic church?

I'm sure Ms. Quinn didn't mean harm.

But her equating her innocent desire for consolation in her grief to the open rebellion of such Fallen Catholics like Ted Kennedy and Nancy Pelosi is disingenuous and I wonder what her point is in the first place.

And lets not even touch on what the implications of a proud sociopath like Bill Clinton receiving the God of Universe into his decomposed soul. It was blasphemous at best.

Do you think God is mocked?
That he is just a "fair thee well fellow"?

No...he is HOLY, and he came to us in Christ and humbled himself even to the cross to save us!

People who believe that they can say 'Lord!Lord!" all the while they propose it is good and right to kill innocent human beings in the womb, who are another "temple of the holy spirit" are fools!!

God is not mocked, he is patient. Remember the parable about the wheat and the weeds, how they will grow together till the harvest.Matthew 13:24-43

As for Ms. Quinn, she has much to learn about the most holy God of the Euchaist that she speculates so loosely about. If it’s just a symbol, then to hell with it....if it's not, those who take it and don't recognize the body are taking death onto themselves.

I think Mr. Russert, may he rest in peace, would want his good friend to be fully received in the church before she receives again.

Dina

Bill Paz writes:

"I remember reading a memoir of Simon Wiesenthal in which he described how he was in line to be executed at a Nazi death camp, but spared because before his turn came, the guard doing the killing had to run off to attend Mass."

Funny. Christians always say Nazis weren't Christians. Of course, the records show different, but still...

Dear Sally,

I respect the fact that you are searching for meaning in your life. Actually this is a very good thing! Just a note: We are on this earth to Know Him, Love Him and Serve Him.
This means that whatever work we are on, (career wise) we do it all, in, with and through Him. Thats where the meaning is. A life lived in His fullness is an enriching fulfilling life. Please go on directionforourtimes.com and read on as you feel moved to. You are very sincere in your words, and that is a good thing also!!!!

im a cathlic and that bless mother apear to me in the hills of san mateo;calif.in yr.1993 shewas four ft.tall and baby jesus was in her arms this was a grift.from god.i never for got it.p.s.don't worry about holy communion god looking over you.my matrels i wear turn gold.havea god day and god nite.

I remember reading a memoir of Simon Wiesenthal in which he described how he was in line to be executed at a Nazi death camp, but spared because before his turn came, the guard doing the killing had to run off to attend Mass.

Good thing that devout person had Christian morality to guide his actions. Imagine what atrocities he might have committed were that not the case. Atheists, take heed.

Sally:

If you do go into a mosque with your shoes on, please make a mental note to blog on it. Ditto if you bring money into a synagogue.

In either case, make sure you have a baked potato with you when you go, in case you need to munch.

Arminu, MH, if you want the Eucharist, it is there for the taking if you first become Catholic. If you have a yearning for it, then perhaps Jesus is calling you to His one true faith? Consider it, at least, as a possibly. Some converts to Catholicism said their desire to receive the Eucharist led them to becoming Catholics, and they never looked back.
God bless.

If you read scripture it is pretty clear that Jesus meant that His body is true food and His blood is true drink. The Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ - it is not symbolism or Christ would have told his disciples to come back, but He didn't because He meant what He said. The Catholic Church has always understood it this way and so has the Orthodox and other schismatic Churches from the beginning.

64 ""But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him."

66 "As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him."

John 6:53-68

53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.

58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."

59 These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

60 Then many of his disciples who were listening said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?"

61 Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, "Does this shock you?

62 What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

64 But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.

65 And he said, "For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father."

66 As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

67 Jesus then said to the Twelve, "Do you also want to leave?"

68 Simon Peter answered him, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

My reaction, as a Catholic Psychiatrist, is somewhat mixed. WWJD is a very relevant question, of course. In every Mass we hear that He said: "Take this, all (!) of you, and eat it". And it seems to me that Sally did in a rather respectful way.
On the other hand, if I go to a Synagogue (and I deeply esteem the Jewish faith), I would never do anything that I knew I wasn't supposed to do if I am not Jewish.

Maybe next you'll walk around a mosque with shoes on - nice 3-inch heels. What the heck, right?

"Who cares if they say I'm not supposed to it, I feel like doing it."

It offends.

Tim writes to Sally Quinn:

"Next time, eat something innocuous before you go to church. You could eat pizza, for example. Bring your own wafers to church in case you're still hungry."

Sally wouldn't want to eat pizza if she were going to a morning service. A good hearty breakfast of juice, eggs, and toast should do the trick. Maybe, she could have on hand a roll and small Perrier for a snack during communion

I believe Tim, if he saw you do it, winced and thought to himself, "you shouldn't have done that Sister Sal, you shouldn't have done it."

I will spend a long time in Purgatory (hopefully I make it that far!) but at least my Catholic brethren will helping me with their prayers and having Masses said for me. Blessed Mary has alluded to the fact that protestants suffer a long time in purgatory because since they don't believe in it, none of their brethren pray for them. Those in purgatory can do nothing for themselves -- only us, the living, can help alleve their suffering and time there.

The point of this is to advise you that you might have added to your time there -- a good remedy would be to become Catholic and go to the Sacrament of Penance, or, perhaps stay Protestant and go to a priest (who represents Christ) and tell him you are sorry you received and won't do it again.

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains.

You admitted you knew it was not allowed, but did it anyway. So you should say you're sorry, and that you won't do it again.

I have just finished reading the article on "Why I took Holy communion?" by Sally Quinn and I found it a great article. I understand perfectly her feelings. She has just lost a great friend and colleague in the person of Tim Russert and it is perfectly understandable why she did receive Holy Communion.Her gesture was one of compassion and love towards her dear friend.I am sure that Tim understood that from eternity.Gestures done out of Love are always felt one way or the other not only by those who are alive but also by those who have passed away. Jesus came to teach us exactly that! Even Pope Johh Paul II when he visited a Mosque, out of respect for his Islamic colleagues, bent down and kissed the Holy Koran.We Catholics understand this very well because we are expected to. Unfortunately, not all seem to do so.Well,keep searching Sally, you are on the right path. Even Jesus told His Apostles " if they are for us, they cannot be against us". God Bless. John.

I can accept you meant no harm. It is the malicious intent of some that causes Catholics pain. I have to ask though, wouldn't you observe rather than act in a Jewish temple, a Hindu service, a Mosque rather than participate because you did not understand?

We have enough pain with the bigoted, ignorant and just plain prejudiced around us.

Arminius-

Someone posted a link to the story in Mark about the Pagan woman and the crumbs of bread from the table. Sounds like a lot of these folks would be sweeping up those crumbs.

Hi, MH,

I did read your post here, and agree completely. I am Episcopal, and share your passion for the Eucharist. Holy week is very emotional for me because of this.

Keep up the communication, and God bless.

Arminius

I have just finished reading the article on "Why I took Holy communion?" by Sally Quinn and I found it a great article. I understand perfectly her feelings. She has just lost a great friend and colleague in the person of Tim Russert and it is perfectly understandable why she did receive Holy Communion.Her gesture was one of compassion and love towards her dear friend.I am sure that Tim understood that from eternity.Gestures done out of Love are always felt one way or the other not only by those who are alive but also by those who have passed away. Jesus came to teach us exactly that! Even Pope Johh Paul II when he visited a Mosque, out of respect for his Islamic colleagues, bent down and kissed the Holy Koran.We Catholics understand this very well because we are expected to. Unfortunately, not all seem to do so.Well,keep searching Sally, you are on the right path. Even Jesus told His Apostles " if they are for us, they cannot be against us". God Bless. John.

I've read the Bible again and again and my conclusion is : CATHOLICISM IS THE DEVIL'S RELIGION.

Nothing in Catholicism's way of Salvation reflects that of the Bible.

"Don't call anyone Father" Jesus said. But guess what they've done? They've called everybody father.

That is just for starters.

1 billion people are DUPED.

Sally Quinn, it is true what Jesus Christ had said. "BEWARE OF WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING."

""Religious hypocrite" is a redundant phrase. As Voltaire said "Ecrasez l'infame!" Religion divides people, kills more than for any other reason, inspires bigotry and hate and retards the advance of science and free will. What a boon for mankind."

To Bill Pai,

The following statement you made is not true.

"More people have been killed in the name of God than any other reason in history."

The atheist have killed more people than any others in history and in record time!!

I'm just saying that the further one is from Christ and His Church the more likely one is to sin and murder. And I make the conjecture that atheists tend to be more likely to not follow Christ than believing Christians.

Sally:

Next time, eat something innocuous before you go to church. You could eat pizza, for example. Bring your own wafers to church in case you're still hungry.

Hi Wiccan, well met!

The making of bread is comforting, but also (to me) therapeutic. Somehow it connects me with my religion and with Creation too. I clearly remember a woman priest giving a mini-sermon at a small Wednesday noon service - her subject was baking bread, and the connection with Christianity. At the end of the service, at least half a dozen (out of a dozen or so attending) offered to send her recipes. I did too, and emailed her my favorite.

Arminius

I have had this very conversation with a parish priest and I compared this circumstance with inviting dear friends and family over for Thanksgiving, only to let them know that they can sit at the table but are not allowed to eat the meal. I do not believe Jesus had this in mind for us.

"E Favorite:
I like to think the majority of Catholics posting here came over on a crusade from some ultra-conservative Catholic website. To me it's the only way to explain the high level of sanctimonious pomposity in these comments. "

I think you're on to something here. They sure sound like a bunch of Bill Donahue droids. The only Catholic I've recognized is Ryan Harber, who, though not approving, is in no way being a jerk about it. Where's Mary Cunningham?

p.s. hello Arminius and Lepidopteryx - I haven't participated in the faith boards for a while and was glad to see your names - I always enjoy seeing your thoughtful posts. (I also post as MHinNC and, a long time ago, Thisbe.)

John says: "Imagine going to someone's house for dinner and they say, you may have anything in my house, please just don't eat the pie in the fridge. So you eat the pie."

Not quite - it's like hearing that your hosts only serve pie to their five-star guests and they've designated you as a four-star guest.

Then you get to the house and the hosts say "come and eat pie" never mentioning anything about the distinction between five and four stars.

You go up for some pie and your host gives it to you knowing you're a four-star guest. They also give pie to everyone who comes up for it, without hesitation, no questions asked.

So who's responsible for the four-star guest getting pie?

I did not say that all Crusaders were murderers, only that murders are not all justified in the name of atheism, such as in case of the Inquisition and the Crusades.

BTW, it's clear that you view killers in the name of Islam to be worse than killers in the name of Christ. The victims wind up dead all the same.

An open heart and an open mind would better serve non-Catholic folks who want to receive Communion, to NOT receive it. One should be open to the reality that Catholics do not want non-Catholics to participate in Holy Communion at Catholic Mass.
[Note: Also, Catholics fast one hour before Mass to prepare ourselves to receive Jesus in Holy Communion - did you fast, Ms. Quinn?]

On the other hand, any one is free to participate, provided they first become Catholic. This is a process that takes about a year, and is open to anybody who wishes to do so. It is free, requires a few hours per month of your time, for about 12 months, followed by a Baptism at the Easter Vigil Mass (the night before Easter Sunday).

Catholics welcome anybody into the faith. We follow the teaching of Jesus and His Apostles.

“Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily,” says St. Paul, “will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord” (1Cor 11:27). Through faith and baptism we enter into communion with Christ and his [Catholic] Church. Because of this shared communion we are empowered to participate in the Eucharist and so receive Holy Communion which both expresses and strengthens these bonds of communion.

Those who have committed a mortal sin have broken communion with Christ and the Church. In that case they are to refrain from receiving Holy Communion until they have been reconciled through the Sacrament of Penance. Moreover, to receive Holy Communion when one is publicly known to be separated from the Church or has knowingly and purposefully rejected the Church’s defined doctrine or its universal moral teaching is likely to become a scandal for others, leading others to sin. The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains that, “The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter” (CCC 2284). This is further reason for refraining from receiving Holy Communion.

Merry Meet, Arminius!

I don't bake bread as much as I used to, but if my boys are feeling down I'll make cinnamon-raisin bread. There's a reassuring ritual to making bread, the kneading and the shaping, and the smell is sure to lift your spirits. Just breaking bread with someone is so comforting. (My mom used to say that making bread was an act of true love, because of the labor involved! :-))

Ms. Quinn,

Please don't take communion again.

And please don't make it worse by saying that you knew it was wrong but that you didn't see a sign at that specific funeral. And don't claim that it's OK because Bill Clinton did it too!

You have said everything except that you're truly sorry. You go on about how you didn't mean wrong, even though you knew it was wrong and then, like a little kid, say that other people have done it too, as if that makes it OK.

Please, stop the excuses and say you're sorry like an adult.

"The Inquisition and the Crusades were not in the name of atheism. More people have been killed in the name of God than any other reason in history."

The preceding quote is just poor history. The inquisition at most killed 10,000 people and they were killed by the secular authorities for treason.

The Crusades were in defense of Islamic aggression and it is true that some crusaders committed murder; as in all wars atrocities occur, but that does not make all crusaders murderers. So, I think your conjecture of "More people have been killed in the name of God than any other reason in history" is just blatantly false.

The exclusion of others from the Lord's table by the Catholic Church is a painful thing. I am a lifelong Episcopalian, and I married a Catholic man. For years, we've worshiped on Christmas Eve at his family's Catholic Parish when visiting for the holiday (we live several states away) . I received communion there several times before Pope John Paul II's firm statement a few years ago that non-Catholics were not to receive communion in the Catholic Church. When that dictum came down, it hurt - a lot. To me as an Episcopalian, the Lord's table is just that - the Lord's. It's doesn't belong to any denomination or parish. Christ has invited us, and by sharing in Christ's body through communion we share in that other manifestation of Christ's body: the Church worldwide. Communion connects us to people not just in our own parish, our own denomination, but Christians of all churches around the world.

To me, the Catholic Church was saying, "we don't want to share Christ's body with you, we don't want to be part of Christ's body with you, and we don't think you're good enough to share the Lord's table with us. "

I no longer felt welcome at his family's church, or at any Catholic church, despite his family's assurances that I should (they encouraged me to take Communion after all, because they felt the dictum was wrong also). He and I attended for a couple of Christmases after that, but eventually stopped going. The "busy-ness" of visiting various family members on Christmas Eve was the immediate reason, but my exclusion from the Eucharist soured our overall desire to go.

The Eucharist means a very great deal to me, and I'm sure to people of other denominations. As I've mentioned, I (and other Episcopalians) regard it as "communing" not just with the Lord, but also with all fellow Christians. I can totally understand why Sally felt it drew her closer to her friend Tim, and I don't believe that feeling shows any disrespect or misunderstanding of the sacrament. In fact, I think it shows a pretty deep understanding. Alive or having passed to new life, Tim is part of the body of Christ.

A brief response to an earlier post: Episcopalians don't believe in transubstantiation in the same way that many Catholics do. We believe that the elements of bread and wine represent the body and blood of Christ, but we don't believe that they are actually transformed through consecration into flesh and blood.

Quinn, you don't know lotsa things about lotsa things. As a former altar boy & lector, I know that you just can't go up & take communion. But you live in the Beltway, where you sanctimonious jerks love to tell us what to do & think.

Comments about the Last Supper (e.g. John 6: 53-68) from some experts:

http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/016_Supper_and_Eucharist

"Luedemann [Jesus, 94-97] concludes that the assymetrical forms cited in 1 Cor 11 are older than the parallel forms of the sayings over the bread and cup in Mark. He also suggests that the eschatological prospect entertained by Jesus is a later addition, and notes that it has nothing to do with the gift of bread and wine. On the other hand, Luedemann notes that the Pauline text reflects a later development than Mark with its twofold command for repetition of the supper ritual in memory of Jesus. In the end, Luedemann decides that the differences between Mark and Paul are small enough for him to use the two accounts in determining both the content of the final meal and the ways in which the supper was understood by early Christians.

At the same time, Luedemann concludes that the portrayal of Jesus celebrating such a ritual on the night before his death is not historical. He is clear that there is "no generic relationship" between any actual final meal and the Lord's Supper understood in cultic terms. He also denies the Passover character of the supper as a Markan creation. Like Meier (below), Luedemann does accept the saying (Mark 14:25) about drinking wine in the kingdom of God as authentic. He concludes: (this saying) "hardly came into being in the early community, for in it Jesus does not exercise any special function for believers at the festal meal in heaven which is imminent. Only Jesus' expectation of a the future kingdom of God stands at the centre, not Jesus as saviour, judge or intercessor."

"In Crossan's view, this is the third example of a plurally attested complex from the first stratum which, although summarizing "principles or practices, themes or emphases, of the historical Jesus, stem not from him but from the liturgical creativity of the early communities" [Historical Jesus, 360]. (The other examples were 013 Two As One and 120 The Lords Prayer.)" Professor Crossan is an On Faith Panelist.

Jesus Seminar - all the following passages were judged to be probably not or definitely not said by the historical Jesus.

Sayings of Jesus

1 Cor 11:23-25

Mark 14:25

Mark 14:22-25

Matt 26:29

Matt 26:26-29

Matt 26:28c

Luke 22:16,18

Luke 22:15-20

Did 9:4

Did 9:1-4

John 6:51-58

1 Cor 11:23-26

Mark 14:22-26

Matt 26:26-30

Luke 22:14-20

John 6:26-70

"Fredriksen [Jesus of Nazareth, 117-119] accepts the Passover character of the event and places the actions of Jesus in the context of messianic meals in his own ministry and at Qumran. When discussing the final days in Jerusalem (page 252), she assumes the basic historicity of the last supper narrative as a self-conscious final meal in which Jesus spoke of his impending death saying the words over the bread and cup." Professor Fredriksen is an On Faith panelist.

"When discussing the saying on Drinking Wine in the Kingdom of God (Mark 14:25, Professor John Meier [Marginal Jew II,302] notes that "the historicity of a final farewell meal held by Jesus with his disciples is generally accepted by scholars across the spectrum, since its existence is supported by both the criterion of multiple attestation and the criterion of coherence."

I've had a knot in my stomach since I read Ms. Quinn's account of taking communion at Tim Russert's mass. It's offensive to me that she is so cavalier about it. At a time when it seems that so many in society and government are bending over backwards to accommodate Muslim practices that don't even take place in church (footbaths in airports, dogs wearing booties to sniff around suspects' houses who are Muslim, etc.), I'm shocked that someone could so knowingly flout Catholic tradition and teaching. Is it okay to disrespect Catholicism? It doesn't matter what Tim Russert would or would not have thought about this. It doesn't matter how many non-Catholics sought to receive communion that day. It was wrong, and furthermore, she knew it was wrong. And now she's trying to say it was a "good experience" that we should all learn from??? No. It's yet another example of the total lack of respect for traditions in our society from the condescending elitists.

"Sinners come cloaked in many beliefs, but adherents to Christ and his teachings are not the ones who kill, those who do not follow Christ are the worst killers; especially those who have killed millions upon millions in the name of atheism. The historical record is clear about who are the murders."

The Inquisition and the Crusades were not in the name of atheism. More people have been killed in the name of God than any other reason in history.

"Bill Pai:

I was not making the point that Christianity is the root of all evil, though you obviously think that atheism is. My point is that Christians and those of other faiths are no different than anyone else in their capacity for good or evil, but they justify their actions in ways that are more appalling because they claim divine guidance.

BTW, you should recheck all of those examples of evildoers you say were atheists - that's not case. Typical retort from a religious person, to take the holier-than-thou approach."

Hitler may have been a pagan. My point is that atheists are the record holders when it comes to murder. Christians pale in comparison and those Christians that murder are not following Christ by definition.

As Professor JD Crossan says, Jesus practiced and preached an "open commensality".

Too bad many orthodox Christian groups lost sight of this!!!!

With full knowledge of the rules of the Church, Mrs. Quinn recieved communion (breaking those rules). Imagine going to someone's house for dinner and they say, you may have anything in my house, please just don't eat the pie in the fridge. So you eat the pie. You similarly did this when you recieved communion. For someone who is trying to gain "a deeper understanding of and respect for all faiths" you sure did seem to willingly do something which was quite disrespectful. God is merciful and forgives our sins - just turn to him in humility and make a firm commitment never to sin again.

willandjansdad:

Neither Christianity nor Paganism has anything to do with cannibalism. To claim that it is a part of any religion is a textbook case of ignorance in action.

"willandjansdad:

Sorry but communion is a neo-pagan form of ritual cannibalism. I don't go there."

Please read John 6:53-68 - Communion or the Holy Eucharist is a sacrament initiated by Christ Himself, so it cannot be "neo-pagan" as you suggest.

I was not making the point that Christianity is the root of all evil, though you obviously think that atheism is. My point is that Christians and those of other faiths are no different than anyone else in their capacity for good or evil, but they justify their actions in ways that are more appalling because they claim divine guidance.

BTW, you should recheck all of those examples of evildoers you say were atheists - that's not case. Typical retort from a religious person, to take the holier-than-thou approach.

HOLD IT - all this disparagement about Sally taking communion -- what about the priest who gave it to her. What about him? Off scot-free?

It takes two to take communion (and "take" is what we called it when I was a Catholic).

I'd like to hear from some catholic clergy here --especially the one who gave her communion knowing she was the Heathen Quinn.

I like to think the majority of Catholics posting here came over on a crusade from some ultra-conservative Catholic website. To me it's the only way to explain the high level of sanctimonious pomposity in these comments.

None of my many Catholic friends and family members have ever spoken this way. If any of them think this way, they certainly have kept it well hidden.

This discussion not only makes me glad I left Catholicism, it makes me feel embarrassed that I ever was one.

Me,

Paganplace is not really scary. I've been talking to her here for some months now, and she is hugely decent. She can get defensive, and can sometimes be difficult to understand. But she is OK.

Arminius

"willandjansdad:
Sorry but communion is a neo-pagan form of ritual cannibalism. I don't go there."

Sir, I'll thank you to leave us Pagans out of this donnybrook. We're not the ones getting twisted out of shape over this.

'"Religious hypocrite" is a redundant phrase. As Voltaire said "Ecrasez l'infame!" Religion divides people, kills more than for any other reason, inspires bigotry and hate and retards the advance of science and free will. What a boon for mankind.'

Sinners kill and the worst killers don't follow Christ and His Church (Catholic Church). The worst killers in history are atheist Communists/Socialists: Lenin, Stalin, Mao Zedong, atheist National Socialists: Hitler and others, atheist Fascist Socialsts: Mussolini and others. So please don't make the argument that Christianity is the root of evil; when in fact it is the font of all that is good. Sinners come cloaked in many beliefs, but adherents to Christ and his teachings are not the ones who kill, those who do not follow Christ are the worst killers; especially those who have killed millions upon millions in the name of atheism. The historical record is clear about who are the murders.

As a Catholic, I have been disturbed by Mr. Donahue's repeated intolerant remarks for quite some time.

Who has authorized him to speak as a representative of the Catholic Church?

I thought commentary on "faith and morals" was reserved for bishops and cardinals.

Ms. Quinn has set forth some very interesting precedents for taking communion.

Mr. Donahue may be a "Catholic", but "he ain't much of a Christian".

Angela:
As a Protestant Christian (United Methodist), I'm sad that the Catholic denomination holds the militant views it does about the participation of non-Catholics in Communion. Christ's table belongs to CHRIST, not just to Catholics, and he welcomes all who love him and truly repent of their sins.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not all Protestants have open communnion. I grew up Southern Baptist, and in order to take part in the Lord's Supper, you had to not only be Baptist, but be a member of that specific congregation.

To clear up one small thing: Episcopalians do not hold to transubstantiation at all, to us Christ is spiritually present in the bread and wine. The rule for receiving communion is that any baptized person, regardless of denomination, can receive. This rule is not rigidly enforced.

Sorry but communion is a neo-pagan form of ritual cannibalism. I don't go there.

I'm breaking my word here, I promised I'd write no more..but got back from a meeting and read the posts.

Gee whiz, PaganPlace, I'm liberal Democrat who believes socialism is good for the soul, but you are one scary person. Find someone to talk to who will break your comfort zone a little. You need some dislodging.

Who cares if Sally Quinn did or didn't take communion? This is definitely not newsworthy, except as a good example of how the elite Washington press corps takes itself ultra-seriously, and wants us all to take them ultra-seriously, as well.

Next week: Does Sally Quinn use Lemon Pledge to wax her furniture?

While I find cannibalism unappealing whatever the form, I did take it once as a groomsman at a friend's wedding. Nice to see additional confirmation that the most intolerant people are typically religious ones, and that acceptance of your fellow human beings only applies when they are members of your congregation.

"Religious hypocrite" is a redundant phrase. As Voltaire said "Ecrasez l'infame!" Religion divides people, kills more than for any other reason, inspires bigotry and hate and retards the advance of science and free will. What a boon for mankind.

" cate:

"The doctrine of transubstantiation is one of the reasons I am no longer a practicing Catholic. Never could rap my head around the concept and I have the same reaction to the idea of the host being (and not just representing) the body of Christ as did Ms. Quinn."

You know, it's a funny thing, but of all things, that big 'transubstantiation controversy' never seemed to be such a big hairy deal as both 'sides' cracked it up to be. Chalk it up to a Pagan heart, but trying to draw and apply conclusions by insisting upon one idea or another of whether or not it's 'Real' ...probably wasn't supposed to be the point.

I wanna be like, "OK, why don't the both of youse figure it out for yourselves before figuring one side or another of a pointless argument justifies giving me a hard time, OK?"

In all the years that I attended Sunday School and other religious training, I don't recall an example of Christ turning away someone from his table when they didn't have the correct membership card. It is appalling that those who claim to be the most pius are the most un-Christlike examples of humanity.

This Sacrament is not merely one to be celebrated by all Catholics. More than that, Catholics are expected to examine themselves and decide if their actions demonstrate the unity they profess by taking Communion. If not, stay in the pews.

And yet there is no hue and cry over celebrating anyway. We have our own knitting to fret over.

We should extend Ms. Quinn forgiveness if this is simply an honest misunderstanding. Only she and God know the truth here, of course. To everyone else, it's nobody's business. The sacrament is with God after all - not mere mortals.

Not to mention that she was trying to honor a friend. Speaking as a Catholic myself, the worst I can do is whisper a quiet "tut tut, but surely Tim appreciates it".

I think we're missing the point.

Catholics believe that those who partake in Holy Communion are obedient members in good standing with the Church, prepared to become one with Christ in the Sacrifice.

Sally believed that she was becoming one with Tim.

It's a little bit like if I decided to move in with Sally and Ben, because I really liked them. Nice sentiment, bad execution.

However, having said that, had Tim had the good sense to be an Episcopalian, Sally, the Buddhists, the Jains and the Muslims would have all been welcomed. Different understanding of the dynamic.

The doctrine of transubstantiation is one of the reasons I am no longer a practicing Catholic. Never could rap my head around the concept and I have the same reaction to the idea of the host being (and not just representing) the body of Christ as did Ms. Quinn.

BTW, the doctrine of transubstantiation is shared, to the best of my knowledge, among other Christian sects, including Episcopal and Lutheran. Not sure if it is quite the same belief at those Churches, as once I was told about the shared belief in transubstantiation, I stopped investigating those Churches as a possible fit for my beliefs.

In my experience (I'm a confirmed and devout Roman Catholic, but certainly no expert), the issue with non-Catholics taking Communion (or, as the Church tends to describe it, "receiving the Eucharist") has to do with the belief in the real presence, as you mentioned. That is, we Catholics believe that the Eucharist is neither a symbol nor a representation of Christ, nor a reenactment of the Last Supper, but the actual, literal, real presence of the body and blood of Christ, manifested in the communal wafer and sacramental wine. Believing this, we're also taught to believe that receiving the real, actual body and blood of Christ is about as sacred as things get here on earth. I think the general prohibition against non-Catholics receiving the Eucharist has to do with the idea that taking part in this holy act without sharing faith in the real presence is disrespectful to Christ: believing his body and blood, which have been broken and poured out on behalf of the world, to be nothing more than a mundane wafer and some watery port, or a mere symbolic reenactment of a long-ago meal, or a simple ritualized act of community-building, seems disrespectful. I honestly don't think the general prohibition is a matter of making the Eucharist exclusive, but rather protecting it against debasement.

That said, I think you're onto something with your WWJD? point. Certainly it seems that Christ would invite you to share in any meal in which He himself took part. Then again, we can't make the mistake of selectively ignoring Christ's repeated calls for his fellow people to believe in Him. He preached a doctrine of love and tolerance, to be sure, but also one in which He Himself, Jesus, was the savior of mankind. It's doubtful that if you were hungry, Jesus would turn you away. But it's also very unlikely He'd let you off the hook without a sermon about how you're supposed to believe in Him. And really, that's all any of his followers are doing: not letting you off the hook without a sermon. Just sayin'.

John 6:53-68

53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.

58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."

59 These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

60 Then many of his disciples who were listening said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?"

61 Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, "Does this shock you?

62 What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

64 But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.

65 And he said, "For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father."

66 As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

67 Jesus then said to the Twelve, "Do you also want to leave?"

68 Simon Peter answered him, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

Hey Sally,

Next time you leave your shoes on in a mosque or bring money into a synagogue, be sure to post a blog.

Better yet, write an article for the New York Times.
What else could anyone be interested in?

As a Protestant Christian (United Methodist), I'm sad that the Catholic denomination holds the militant views it does about the participation of non-Catholics in Communion. Christ's table belongs to CHRIST, not just to Catholics, and he welcomes all who love him and truly repent of their sins. I understand the concept of transubstantiation, which Catholics hold dear, and I respect it--what I don't understand is why Communion is considered somehow not sacramental when taken by someone who believes that the bread and wine are meant to symbolize Jesus's great love and sacrifice. God's transformational love and mercy is capable of transcending physical contact with Jesus's flesh. I guess I don't understand how respective belief in transubstantiation or symbolism is relevant to the message or sacrifice of Jesus. All it does is create false divisions among us.

As for Sally's actions, it's not our place to judge. Yes, Communion is not something to be taken lightly, but I'm glad she found comfort and peace at Christ's table. I think Tim would agree.

Hey Sally, try making your way into Mecca and see how far you get. You are very disrespectful.

I am trying to be compassionate towards Ms. Sally Quinn though I know she meant no disrespect but just ignorance of the matter. That being said, I must say that I am Catholic and this must be said. A non-Catholic person cannot take Holy Communion at a Catholic mass. Holy Communion is the precious body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. To take this without prior sacrament of confession, baptism what you are doing is bringing condemnation from God to you. Holy Communion is very sacred and one needs to confess especially if you are in mortal sin.I personally could not live with myself if I was in mortal sin and took communion for you are calling condemnation upon yourself. We need to be worthy to take communion because our sins offend God. By taking it is like he is being crucified all over again. Why do I speak in this manner? The torture and pains our Lord recived was that so we could we saved from our sins,satan and Hell and he did it out of love for us thus it is necessary to approach this sacrament with great respect and love for that is how our Lord Jesus Christ did.Our Lord Jesus is very merciful and loving just go to confession and tell the priest you are sorry you didn't know and he will surely forgive you and if you are non Cahtolic be sorry and never do this again. Offering reparation for this sin through prayer or
good deeds is not a bad idea. God Bless

"Having sexual relations and co-creating a new life is a wonderful thing, but God has established boundaries for our protection. All sexual union outside the boundaries of holy matrimony is wrong. He does this to protect what is sacred. If I engage in sexual activity outside of my marriage,"

I'm just wondering if it's *possible* to talk about a Catholic issue without sexual control getting involved?

I do not think that most Catholics even believe in "trans-substantiation."

It is easy enough to find out; just ask around; I have, and this is my observation.

So if Catholics don't believe it, then what makes it a "belief?" And why should non-Catholics be more respectful of Catholic beliefs than Catholics?

Catholicism gives off a very strange and confusiing vibe to non-Catholics, least of which is how angry Catholics are at each other, and how they take it out on the rest of us.

I think it is the JOB of the Catholic Church to straighten out some of these confusions, and not leave it up Catholic congregants, who seek to sort it all out on blogs like this.

I don't blame Sally Quinn for violating any religious protocol in a Catholic Church Service. I am sure that she, as well as I, as well as just about anybody, would respect and comply with the wishes of the congregants and celebrants present, if only they would make their wishes known.

And if they did not, then why should they complain?

Dear Salley Quinn: I was so moved by your column that I cut & pasted into a letter to the editor but without your name but mine attached. Now I know that this is wrong, but I could tell that you are such a loving and forgiving person that you would not mind in the least. After all, people do this all the time, even Martin Luther King Jr. and look how he is treated. Besides, who owns the English language? Words ought to be free to everyone. ;) Of course, I am joking to make a point. You asked, what would Jesus do? Well, this is really the wrong question. It should be, What did Jesus say to do? He said that we are to be one, as He is one with the Father. No one forced you to be non-Catholic and no one can force you to become Catholic. Until then, things are what they are and you need to respect Catholic understanding of Holy Communion and not other's interpretation or practice of it. PAX, Fr. Sauppé

Examples of Only a few World Wide Eucharistic Miracles

Bolsena-Orvieta, Italy
a priest has difficulties believing in the Real Presence, and blood begins seeping out of the Host upon consecration. Because of this miracle, Pope Urban IV commissioned the feast of Corpus Christi, which is still celebrated today.

Lanciano, Italy -- 8th century A.D.
A priest has doubts about the Real Presence; however, when he consecrates the Host it transforms into flesh and blood. This miracle has undergone extensive scientific examination and can only be explained as a miracle. The flesh is actually cardiac tissue which contains arterioles, veins, and nerve fibers. The blood type as in all other approved Eucharistic miracles is type AB!

Physician Tells of Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano - (Zenit)
"Dr. Edoardo Linoli says he held real cardiac tissue in his hands, when some years ago he analyzed the relics of the Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano, Italy."

Oh, by the way, the bulk of the blame is to be on Catholics for not believing, honoring, and protecting the sacredness of the Eucharistic Christ. I am so sorry that many have attacked you personally. I pray that you will forgive them for the good of your own soul. Again, God bless you.

Oh I was I was a Roman Catholic cracker,
That is what I'd truly like to be...

K8:
If you took half the energy you use in being upset over non-existent threats and used it to do what Jesus commanded, you, the Church, and the world would be a better place.

Oh, wait, I forgot, Catholics can do no wrong in God's eyes. Silly me.

I am catholic and I see nothing wrong with Mrs. Quinn receiving communion. Would Christ have turned her away that day if she wanted to receive? I think Mr. Donahue is being too harsh telling her she was wrong and that would make someone nauseated. What does it say in the Bible about judging people? NOT TO JUDGE!!! There are times I feel the Catholic Church thinks just cause they have communion, the rosary and confession they have one foot in the door so to speak. Are ALL non-catholics condemmed to hell cause they dont receive communion? I think we ought to look at our own hearts and not judge others.

It is good that you understand now what you did was wrong.

But it still stands that if you are going to attend another person's religious gathering, you should learn if there is anything that you shouldn't do or are not included in.

The priest presiding over the funeral should have made an announcement that those who are not Catholic should not receive and it's upsetting that he did not.

We Catholics do truly take this seriously, as the Church, we take this seriously. The Eucharist is the Body & Blood, Soul & Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. This is not something to be taken lightly in any sense.

The Eucharist is only to be accepted by Catholics who are in full communion with the Church and her teachings. So Pro-choice Catholics, practicing gay Catholics, co-habitating outside of marriage Catholics and so on are to not receive.

St. Paul says those who receive unworthily call judgement down upon themselves. This is a grevious call and this is why we protect the Eucharist as we do. To call judgement down upon yourself isn't something to be taken lightly! Thus, those who are not Catholic and do not understand that they are receiving the TRUE Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharist are not to receive, because that would be receiving unworthily.

I do find it odd though that as someone who speaks "On Faith" that you would not have known this. Especially since Tim was such a close friend of yours.

If you truly did not know, then that is better than receiving and understanding that you shouldn't. Just keep it in mind from now on, that if you're not Catholic then you shouldn't receive.

Even if some Catholics tell you that it is okay to do so, the CHURCH says it is not. And one Catholic's opinion does not make up the Church.

Hey "are you kidding"?

There is abuse in all areas of society...your bigotry is showing through, cracker.

Sally,
I do hope that you are able to read my post. I suspect that some will attack you. Others will support your action. I would like to support you as a fearfully and wonderfully made person, but help you understand why your actions were wrong. Please always remember that the God of Holy Scripture is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in love. Regardless, the presence of absolute truth means that some actions are objectively right and some are wrong.

Having sexual relations and co-creating a new life is a wonderful thing, but God has established boundaries for our protection. All sexual union outside the boundaries of holy matrimony is wrong. He does this to protect what is sacred. If I engage in sexual activity outside of my marriage, I violate the sacredness of that union. It is the same with receiving the Eucharist. Most Catholics shouldn't be receiving communion on a weekly bases because most Catholics in this day and age are not in a state of grace due to unconfessed sin and unrepentance. What you did was wrong even if you had wholesome motives. Certainly, culpability is less for someone in ignorance, but ignorance of the law is no excuse. A true act of respect would be demonstrated in finding out what was right before acting. If one's conscience is so hardened from being ignored it is the fault of the one who habitually ignored the voice of God calling them to do what is right, calling them to Himself. We can only come to the Truth through one means and that is the truth itself. Look for the truth and you will find it.

As G.K. Chesterton said, "The Christian faith has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult and left untried." Pick up the Scriptures and find out about Christ from reliable truth. Ask God to lead you into all truth. Finally, read the official teaching of the Catholic Church in the Catechism before you assume.

If a 4 year old touched your breasts you would correct him but understand his ignorance. If a grown man on the subway assumed he could do what most pleased him regardless of your opinion, he would be in violation of numerous laws both man made and in nature, self-evident. There are many people that can answer your questions better than me, but please don't make assumptions about the truth. Find out what it really is. It will bring you right back to the Eucharist, which is really Jesus Christ, body, blood, soul, and divinity. He is the Truth. He is the answer. He is what you are really looking for in every proper longing of your heart. May God bless you.

This whole deal about whether someone is or is not allowed to partake in Communion is one of the reasons I don't associate with the Catholic Church anymore.

Communion means the bringing together of people. Exclusion of anyone is anethema to its purpose. Jesus never changed the bread and the wine into literal flesh and blood. And assuming that the words of the last supper have been fully and accurately reported; it's far more likely that he was enjoining his followers to follow his example from his life, his coming ordeal and his death.

God is not anymore present in the bread and wine than present within us all. The bread and the wine, and the ritual of communion, serve as a focus for us to be receptive to the presence of God; and hopefully, of transformation of ourselves into the kind of people God wants us to be.

"It looks like Catholics and the very Body of Christ are under siege by militant atheists and other "tolerant and open minded" groups.."

Oh, Gods forbid someone should get a piece of bread from Jesus without proper credentials. Best assume the worst. You're under attack. Best 'defend' with extreme prejudice. Yayah.

"K8:
A militant secularist has now pledged to desecrate the Eucharist:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/now_ive_got_bill_donohues_atte.php

Sally Quinn has started quite the trend.

It looks like Catholics and the very Body of Christ are under siege by militant atheists and other "tolerant and open minded" groups...

Time to take action in defense of the faith - it is the militant seculars who are doing the attacking...."

Gosh, K8, did you get as upset over the priests desecrating those poor altar boys as you do over a cracker? Where is Torquemada when you need him?

Sally, I'm so sorry for the loss of a good friend, and for the beating you're taking over this issue. I think Jesus set a table that has room enough for all of us, and I hope you find a community of His apprentices who embody that reality.

Is this ever going to end? Who gives a damn? What the hell does it have to do with anything other than some Quinn transgression?

For Pete's sake, can we drop this stupid nonsense?

Matthew 26:26-29
26 While they were eating, Jesus took a loaf of bread, and after blessing it he broke it, gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is my body." 27 Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will never again drink of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

Does this scripture sicken Ms.Quinn?.

Of course Sally Quinn was wrong to take Communion. She thereby put her own needs above the rules of the RC Church. But the reaction to her action shows how crazy religious people really are.

D. Rodriguez:

Sally- You should have kept this to yourself. I think writing about it shows that you did it to have something controversial and sensational to put in your column. You should be a little ashamed of yourself.

Ditto. Also boring as hell.

" Me:

"PaganPlace:

"This the last I'll say on this...I was describing the situation at church as I saw it,"

And I was asking why you saw it that way and what it had to do with Catholics.

"as you would have seen it IF you were there and as anyone would have. If he wanted a drink, fine, if not, fine. He skipped the body and went directly to the blood. No one minded, no one hesitated, not even the servers. What I am saying, it didn't matter."

OK, then. What I was saying is that it's not a place to go get drunk.

"In truth, he probably was a drunk or user of some ilk. Hate to burst your bubble, but many homeless are users."

Oh, *do* tell me about my 'bubble.'

"Do you ever enact with any homeless?"

Enact what? Does having been on the street count?

" Come to my neighborhood. They cycle in and then out over time. They find a good panhandling spot and share it with others."

Oh, can't have that. Sharing begging spots. It's almost Commie or something.

"I don't believe they actually schedule (even though they are there same time everyday),"

Frankly, when it's the difference between starting the night chilled and sitting up back some Church, 'schedules' might be something you take note of. Personally, thanks to the experiences that made me homeless in the first place, and somehow lacking affection for what I was knocked around in the name of, I wouldn't set foot on a Church's grounds no matter what. It was one of those few threads of pride that kept me going.

Happy now?

"but I've often seen a good spot has another person waiting for their turn with the sign 'Need Food' or whatever. Some take food donations, but most want cash. I am not putting down their methods or needs or situation, just explaining the reality. My feelings on the whole thing is sadness."

Good.

I *still* pass panhandlers on the street and wonder what the Hel they think they could get out of me, then know how to read what they're doing there and why. (Hint, the louder ones aren't the hungriest)

"Do you know any addicts?"

Not anymore. If you know what I mean.

"Just because I see the reality doesn't mean I intolerant or judgemental."

Then your point was? About 'Catholic hoobahjoo?'

"As far as the watering of the wine, you obviously know more than I as I care very little about those issues as they are unimportant..hence why I posted here in the first place."

The *importance* goes to noting that drunks know better than to go to a Church just to have a sip of watered wine. Unless maybe they had bad DT's, in which case you oughtta give em more or pony up for some health care.

I read your article and it made me cry.
Receiving the Holy Eucharist is an act of faith. It is what makes Catholics Catholic. We truly believe this is the true Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Receiving Him in Communion is a gift given to us as Catholics. It is not open to Non Catholics to receive.
You seem to be bragging in your article that you decided to take Communion regardless of knowing that this is sacred to Catholics. You should have written an article apologizing to Catholics. I did not know Tim Russert personally but we did share the same faith and because of that I know he was not happy about what you did. I am sure he would have wanted you to decide to embrace the Catholic Church and become a Catholic and then join us in receiving Our Jesus in Holy Communion. If that day comes my tears will be for joy for you, but today I cry because you have insulted my Lord by receiving Him without faith or reverence. What a sad and terrible thing you did.

With consideration to Sally Quinn's taking communion at Tim Russert's funeral Mass, I would only like to say one thing.

Sally, if you are truly looking, searching and trying to find your way and your life's meaning, then start with honesty. Honesty will allow you to find your way.

When you hide behind the "what would Jesus do..." clause; would he welcome you to receive as a non-Catholic, I would have to say no and this does not mean I speak for Christ or that I can read your soul. It is just common sense.

The reason for this is because Christ called us to REPENTANCE first BEFORE we sit at the table.

The un-repented/unbelievers, were NOT accepted at the table and were not given a "free pass" to join Him at the table while they still continued in their own justification of wrong doing.

Remember the Pharisees were condemned by Christ for exactly that. That is because they were NOT honest, truthful or repenting. They just wanted to continue in their own way of thinking, justifying and living without change of heart. Therefore, Christ did NOT include them at the table.

He did however, invite and include the sinners who were WILLING to change, believe, repent and follow Him.

We do not know what went on between the Pope and those who were not Catholics and yet received Communion, and it's really not for us to know -- as that is between them and God.

We do know however our OWN hearts and whether or not we try to justify our own wrong.

If we persist in living in sin, whether or not we receive the Holy Communion, our lives will not change. Our hearts will remain hard to His voice and the graces that should become apart of our soul in receiving the Holy Communion will probably not penetrate our souls.

It is ONLY when we regard the truth for what it is, and accept that truth that you will then feel the complete love of Christ.

In other words, just because other people steal from the office, doesn't make it right, good or true, it is still wrong no matter how much we try to justify it so therefore if we are honest, we will not do that.

Our life choices are for us, and we will be judged accordingly not according to what someone else did or did not do.

If you truly want to find your way, you must be willing to put aside "your way" repent, believe, and follow Christ! Period!

(I know of no one who has learned about the Catholic, Church and her history in its fullness whom did not become Catholic.)

-Marybeth

I read your article and it made me cry.
Receiving the Holy Eucharist is an act of faith. It is what makes Catholics Catholic. We truly believe this is the true Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Receiving Him in Communion is a gift given to us as Catholics. It is not open to Non Catholics to receive.
You seem to be bragging in your article that you decided to take Communion regardless of knowing that this is sacred to Catholics. You should have written an article apologizing to Catholics. I did not know Tim Russert personally but we did share the same faith and because of that I know he was not happy about what you did. I am sure he would have wanted you to decide to embrace the Catholic Church and become a Catholic and then join us in receiving Our Jesus in Holy Communion. If that day comes my tears will be for joy for you, but today I cry because you have insulted my Lord by receiving Him without faith or reverence. What a sad and terrible thing you did.

1 Corinthians 11;23-30
23 For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took a loaf of bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." 25 In the same way he took the cup also, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. 27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be answerable for the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Examine yourselves, and only then eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For all who eat and drink without discerning the body, eat and drink judgment against themselves. 30 For this reason many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.

First Sally Quinn states "I have made a point of going to services of all faiths and to participate as fully as possible to develop a deeper understanding of and respect for all faiths." then she takes Catholic communion even though she is not Catholic.

As a Catholic I think this is disrespectful. All are welcome in a Catholic church, but we ask that you follow the rules. The fact that she was at a friend's funeral does not change a thing.

She then goes on to state that non-Catholic Bill Clinton received communion in a Catholic church. I am flabbergasted that anyone would look to Bill Clinton as a positive moral or religious role model.

" R.C. Christian:

"Paganplace, You have a very valid point. There are instances where even those in mortal sin may actually "receive" communion."

Not saying it makes sense, one way or the other. Just I question the 'righteous' inconsistency on all this.

"I just think the outrage people feel here stems from the perception that someone deciding "this is my decision and no one will tell me otherwise" is reflective of what true Catholics are not."

I just think that leaping to a sense of outrage over that notion may just not be basis for all this nastiness. Catholics do have a real nasty way of calling everyone else 'self-centered' if they aren't kneeling the right way. I think it shows up, in a way, that the agenda of social control that denial of communion or 'salvation' has always been, historically, isn't so 'righteous' or 'all-inclusive' as they claim when it comes to trying to impose their thing on everyone else.

"Paganplace, I believe you are closer to Him than you admit."

Got no problem with that at all, if yer man's all that great. :) (And, thanks, I know that's a pretty big compliment coming from you lot. :) )

But, hey, they tried to make a sacrifice and a scapegoat of me to 'take away' enough 'sins' that I can kind of identify. ;)

Call me a Good Samaritan. Hec, I'll even wash the dude's feet for you, if that'll help. I certainly got the unbound hair for it, and I'll walk away no less proud. Cause of things a lot of folks might not 'get' when all they see there is submission and obedience and debasement.

No worries.
Compassion ain't copyright.

To a Pagan, bread and wine can be such that it *is* the Lord and Lady, and no junk science or literalism necessary, just like what all that metaphor referred to. (Jesus was called a Christ cause of the Mysteries of Demeter. Shh.)

Even on your terms, I think that whole deal was meant to *free* you from 'sin,' not enslave you to the fear of it and squabble over who gets the 'salvation' and how.

The way I see it, a lot of my ancestors tried to turn all that to the good, but it's become a monster. After having all manner of people trying to shove that wafer down my throat, though, I see the utter inhospitality toward someone sincerely trying to make a gesture for her friend as...

Curious.

Shall we say.

Sally- You should have kept this to yourself. I think writing about it shows that you did it to have something controversial and sensational to put in your column. You should be a little ashamed of yourself.

A militant secularist has now pledged to desecrate the Eucharist:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/now_ive_got_bill_donohues_atte.php

Sally Quinn has started quite the trend.

It looks like Catholics and the very Body of Christ are under siege by militant atheists and other "tolerant and open minded" groups...

Time to take action in defense of the faith - it is the militant seculars who are doing the attacking....

I don"t appreciate the fact that a
NonCatholic would take "Holy Communion" while
they are not of the faith.

If you ever want to recieve the Eucharist,
then I advise you to embrace the one "True" Catholic faith! Please, do not commit this
Sacriledge agian!! Walt

BORING

Please read 1 Cor 11 in which are are told not to take Communion if we do not believe in the Real Presence or are not morally prepared since 'we eat and drink judgement for ourselves' otherwise.

The Pro-Abortion politicians who are of Catholic background have been asked not to go to Catholic Communion and rightly so and do so out of defiance rather than fellowship with the whole Catholic Church

For Catholics receiving Communion is not just a private act but a sign of accepting the whole of Catholic digma and morality

Tom,

The Mormon temples are not exclusive, but we do require you to be worthy to enter the presence of god.

You want respect for your own doctrines, just as we want for God’s doctrines (Temple requirements). Not all Mormons are allowed into a temple. They too have to prove themselves worthy.

Mark

PaganPlace:

This the last I'll say on this...I was describing the situation at church as I saw it, as you would have seen it IF you were there and as anyone would have. If he wanted a drink, fine, if not, fine. He skipped the body and went directly to the blood. No one minded, no one hesitated, not even the servers. What I am saying, it didn't matter.

In truth, he probably was a drunk or user of some ilk. Hate to burst your bubble, but many homeless are users.

Do you ever enact with any homeless? Come to my neighborhood. They cycle in and then out over time. They find a good panhandling spot and share it with others. I don't believe they actually schedule (even though they are there same time everyday), but I've often seen a good spot has another person waiting for their turn with the sign 'Need Food' or whatever. Some take food donations, but most want cash. I am not putting down their methods or needs or situation, just explaining the reality. My feelings on the whole thing is sadness.

Do you know any addicts? I do, lived with them even. We should do lunch sometime and I can tell you what they do to get by. It isn't pretty for them or anyone who loves them. What I described about homeless people panhandling and coming into church doesn't surprise me. It is what happens to people sometimes.

Just because I see the reality doesn't mean I intolerant or judgemental.

As far as the watering of the wine, you obviously know more than I as I care very little about those issues as they are unimportant..hence why I posted here in the first place.

When I was going through the Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults twenty years ago, a catechist, holding up a communion wafer, remarked: "It takes almost as much faith to believe that it's bread as it does to believe that it's the body of Christ." It's about charity, people, not legalism.

I would like to suggest Ms. Quinn remove this personal nonsense from the blog, which is of interest to her, some Catholics, and nobody else.

Why not have those interested email you Sally instead of boring the rest of us to death?

As a Catholic I have to follow rules for taking communion. It is the belief that this is a very sacred act that must be done deliberately and worthily. I have refrained from taking communion unworthily yet non-Catholics believe they are entitled to come in my church and take it whenever they want. It's interesting how the rules that apply to Catholics for taking communion don't apply to non-Catholics who don't believe in it anyway. The excuse that some Catholics are ignorant (willfully) justifies non-Catholics to profane our beliefs is weak and lame. Out of basic respect I wouldn't dream of sneaking into a Mormon Temple or participating in any religious ceremony forbidden to outsiders. It's this basic respect, and manners, which you lack.

Dear Ms. Quinn,

It seems to me that you were not being malicious but, rather, like Donahue said, you were serving your own needs and FEELINGS. This is a major problem when emotionalism rules the day. Unlike many, you actually knew you were not allowed to receive communion. You're not allowed not because Catholics are better than you, not because you are being excluded, not because you are bad. It's simply because, you don't believe that it is the body and blood of Christ, and as you know, you have not made your first communion. It's very simple and by the way you explain it, you admit you are fully aware. You just ignored it. That is an insult. Asking WWJD doesn't give you the right to answer the question. In fact, the Church teaches for faithful Catholics what Jesus would do. That's what distinguishes Catholics from other Christians. Jesus doesn't do MY interpretation. It's very clear and nowhere do I see you feign ignorance of this. Donahue is correct; you would have honored Russert and his faith had you respectfully abstained (just as any Catholic must do when they haven't confessed mortal sins or are not in a state of grace)from taking communion. The Pope and priests are not policemen with the Eucharist and usually don't always notice who they're giving communion to. It is up to the individual to police themselves. Unfortunately, in this world of, "I FEEL it's ok so it is", the lines get more blurry all the time. There is truth Ms. Quinn and if you are searching, like you say, search for the truth.

You know, Jesus intended communion ( as it is called here) for everyone. But he also cautioned that you must be worthy to receive it. It would not be good is one is not worthy.

Being an x-catholic, I never understood the exclusion Catholics imposed upon children and non-Catholics.

If you are worthy, you should be allowed to receive it. If the faith presenting it has excluding doctrines one should respect them even if one disagrees with the doctrine.

Mark

Yawn.

Sally Quinn admits to knowing about the controversy within the Catholic Church regarding proper reception of the Eucharist. She took communion at Tim Russert's funeral.

The Clerics at the funeral failed to inform non-Catholics of the Catholic Church's teaching regarding reception of the Eucharist, and nothing in print was made available apparently.

The fault lies with the Catholic clerics in this country who are gutless wonders when it comes to defending the Eucharist. They are more afraid of wounding someone's feelings than they are of wounding Christ. It screams volumes about their faith and their loyalties.

Ms. Quinn knew better than to take communion at a Catholic funeral. She chose to receive anyway. Leave her to God, the perfect Judge, who knows all and sees all.

Dear Sally,
the first good item about you, is that you have read our comments. The second is that- after reading them- you have researched the subject.
What I lke the most is that you are a freethinker with eyes wide opened, not a blind believer in what theocracy want us to believe.

OK, then, 'Me,' what was your *point,* then about assuming the worst about that homeless man in an Episcopal church?

In Catholic churches, even what the priests drink at the altar (Never did understand why it was just them, anyway) is watered, and that's supposed to have something to do with a soldier coming along and piercing Jesus' side on the cross. Apart from drinking customs of the time, water and blood came out, probably cause what really kills you in crucifixion is fluid buildup in the lungs, which makes that move either a dubious mercy (better a stab wound than that,) or someone trying to prolong the agony, but in any event, drunks know better than to go to churches to get drunk.

I wonder if you considered that your act could be considered disrespecting the Catholic faithful. Our church is clear as to who may and may not receive the Eucharist. Think about all those who have divorced and remarried and cannot partake of the Eucharist (in obedience) think of all those who do not perceive themselves as in a state of grace and also refrain from receiving, think about those who truly believe in transubstantiation in contrast to those who think the Eucharist is nothing more than a symbol of the body and blood of Jesus. Your act in my estimation was selfish and cavalier. I wonder if you could disrespect other religions such as if you were asked at a Mormon temple to remain outside of the holy sanctuary and not witness a marriage but wait until it was over and if you would go in to witness it anyway. I wonder if you would have a problem with serving an orthodox Jew pork or a Hindu beef and just pass it off as unimportant. In my estimation these acts are no different than what you did in my Church. You might have done better in honoring your friend by observing and respecting the teachings of his faith rather than violating them.

Paganplace,

You have a very valid point. There are instances where even those in mortal sin may actually "receive" communion.

I just think the outrage people feel here stems from the perception that someone deciding "this is my decision and no one will tell me otherwise" is reflective of what true Catholics are not. A Catholic's life journey is that of becoming one, to the point of sacrificing self for the whole (The Church, The Communion of Saints). We pray "Thy Will Be Done" and then to blatently witness someone who apparently knows better say "no, my will be done" just rubs the wrong way. Yes there is forgiveness and I hope Sally will seek that in her life as I do for my offenses and as do all Catholics who acknowledge their own failures.

Paganplace, I believe you are closer to Him than you admit.

RCC

PaganPlace:

I said I am EX-Catholic. I attend the Episcopal church now. I was at Trinity Episcopal at that service I described. The Episcopal church uses wine with every communion, unless there is a good reason not. Also, when I was Catholic, many parishes used wine as well.

Also, I wasn't downing the gentleman who came in for communion. I welcome him and do not begrudge anyone any comfort.

No, I've never been homeless but living where I do, I see and talk with them everyday. I am sorry the world is the way it is.

Please do not look for intolerance where there is none.

I'm sure that Sally "meant no disrespect" but it appears to me that respect was missing. You can be respectful without being accepting or sympathetic.

"If Tim Russert was a dear friend, then you could honor him, and his faith, by never again participating in Holy Communion until you have become a member of the Catholic Church."

And they wonder where Protestants come from. :)

Ms. Quinn,

It's understandable how you and your readers might be confused about, or even unaware of, the Catholic Church's teaching on the Eucharist or Holy Communion. If this experience has taught you nothing else, then I hope that you have at least learned that we Catholics hold the Eucharist sacred (even though many Catholics abuse its sanctity, as you duly noted).

If Tim Russert was a dear friend, then you could honor him, and his faith, by never again participating in Holy Communion until you have become a member of the Catholic Church.

If you're interested in joining, you would be more than welcomed...

Alot of people seem to have a grudge against Sally Quinn, for some reason, and are determined not to like anything about her, nor anything she says.

She is an example of a "non-believer" who has always ignored the plaintive cries to "repent" and now that she is giving all this religion stuff some consideration in a measured and analytical way, that is considered apostasy, and therefore, not good enough. It is not enough that she should consider the posibilities of religion; she should suddenly and magically know all about all reliieons and exactly which is the one for for her. Oh brother!

Contrary to what many people have posted here, I DO understand what she is trying to say, and I find her expression of sentiment to be almost enchanting.

As she explained, she was not intending to violate any Roman Catholic rules, which were not listed on the bulletin, and she gave a very LONG list of precedents, which she thought would allow her to take communion.

I saw Sally Quinn give an interview on NBC about the death of her friend, Tim Russert. I can verfy, that she seemed emotionally wrecked over this sudden and shocking event. So why beat up on her? Why not try to understand her grief and try to make her feel better?

Less than 2 years ago, an aquaintance of mine died suddenly. At his funeral, I went to his open casket, and I could barely contain my emotional awe at the death of this friend.

Presently, 2 other people began a religons argument, about some small matter of order to be conduceted during the funeral. They were arguing in hushed, but tense vocies, almost over the dead body of my friend, who appeared to be sleeping in his casket.

I wanted to get up and yell at these people, and say "For God sakes! The man is DEAD. Have some respect for the death of this man." But I did not; I just walked outside, and around the block, and came back in a few minutes later. But I wish I had.

Sometimes, relgious people need a good hard kick in the pants.

It does surprise me that someone who claims to respect as well as seek to understand various religious traditions, would decide that she is free to redefine those traditions [and realities] for herself. We believe that the reality of the Eucharist is given us by the Lord. Apparently, S. Quinn believes that she knows better; after all, it is all about how she feels. It's not "WWJD", it is "IAAM" [It's All About Me]. Sorry, Sally - not so.

I tend not to believe Miss Quinn when she said she wanted to feel close to Tim by receiving the Sacrament of Communion. If Mr.Russert said we are winning you over he would never have meant that she could totally disregard the rule regarding the True Presence. Miss Quinn is a moron and its obvious she has NO RESPECT for Mr.Russert or his family or the Catholic faith. Sorry I don't accept what she claims as her reason for committing sacrilege. I don't believe she has studied different religions : if she had she would have gained some RESPECT and understanding that her action constituted sacrilege. I think Quinn did it to create controversy and to provide fodder for an article she needed to write.I have no respect for Miss Quinn.Does Miss Quinn remember in her "studies"that Jesus came not to abolish the Law but to fulfill it.He didn't say break the law.What would Jesus say to Ms. Quinn?Follow the Church rules and don't be deceptive to justify your wrong doing.Have some integrity and sin no more.

Vales:

"Wait till you are on your death-bed Sally, that will be a most memorable "experience" for you........"

Good grief, Vales, why wait for her death-bed? Light your torches, hunt her down, and burn her at the stake! That'll teach her what Christian love is all about.

Ms. Quinn,

You say in your essay that you have studied many faiths. If that is the case, perhaps, you could start asking some timeless questions to include inquiries into esoterica and exoterica, atheism and agnosticism, even the more mundane matter of theology/ideology.

The matter of l'affaire de wafer has just about exhausted itself.

Thank you for considering this request.

"I live in a major city. One Sunday communion service, a man, a street-living person (so it seemed in manner and dress), came in right before the actual communion. He sat in the back, behind me and mumbled to himself. As everyone walked up to partake in the communion, he held back until he was the last in line. He took a drink of the wine and promptly left."

"Does this happen often?"

I wouldn't think so, since most actual Catholic churches don't actually pass out wine, much less enough to get a load on from.

Did it ever occur to you that the homeless man in your little parable might be a devout Christian who wanted to receive the sacrament, but sat in the back and left early because he *didn't want to be seen that way?*

Ever been homeless?

Although a non-Catholic receiving communion should be invited to do so by the pope or a priest (not taking it upon themselves to decide), your journey and introspective thoughts are heartening and I applaud your deep thinking on this matter. You seem like a wonderful person and I pray that grace abounds in your life.

God bless you!

As an ex-Catholic and an Episcolapean now, I know all the mumbo and the jumbo that goes along with the Eucharist.

I live in a major city. One Sunday communion service, a man, a street-living person (so it seemed in manner and dress), came in right before the actual communion. He sat in the back, behind me and mumbled to himself. As everyone walked up to partake in the communion, he held back until he was the last in line. He took a drink of the wine and promptly left.

Does this happen often? I'm sure it must. Does it matter to me? No. The Eucharist is no more mystical and sacred than a pot luck dinner. No church scholar can convince me otherwise. It is the coming to together of people for the purpose of prayer and remembering of Christ's life.

If some poor guy gets a drink with it, good for him. Come again and bring friends. If Ms Quinn the non-believer enjoys the company and the moment, good for her. Come again & bring your friends.

How smug and proud this woman is!

"A good start would be to study, to learn, to talk to people and to have an open heart and an open mind. That’s what I am trying to do. I highly recommend it."

She is lecturing others to have an "open mind" after she deliberately violates the most sacred tradition of the Catholic faith!

No apology, no repentance etc. She chalks it up to experience!

Wait till you are on your death-bed Sally, that will be a most memorable "experience" for you........

Eh, on the one hand, I'd expect an On Faith editor to be more conscious of her prominence and more sensitive of Catholic hangups.

On the other hand, I don't have a lot of sympathy for folks who defend the use of that sacred thing for partisan political purposes, when I know darn well that among Catholics, *not* going up for communion, even if it's cause you haven't hit the confessional appropriately can be tantamount to standing up and telling the congregation you're having an affair or something.

Or, if you're a kid who maybe doesn't even want to be there, a good way to get stuffed in a small box with ...untrustworthy individuals with undue influence over your future, demanding to know your insecurities.

Not that I'm against Catholics doing their observances right and not having strangers waltz in and 'receive the body of Christ,' but isn't that the whole basis of trying to express all that social and political power over others in the first place?

what is everyone so upset about? if there is a god and he frowns on quinn's act of unapproved cannibalism, he can settle it himself. i'm sure he doesn't need the input of self righteous earthbound pharisees to mete out punishment. bill donohue has no spiritual authority. he's just a hack in the manufactured outrage racket and it's a lucrative biz.

Since Christ is present under the appearances of bread and wine in a sacramental way, the Blessed Eucharist is unquestionably a sacrament of the Church. Indeed, in the Eucharist the definition of a Christian sacrament as "an outward sign of an inward grace instituted by Christ" is verified. I pray Sally you will look deeper into the Catholic faith because you will find our Lord and Savior in the fullness of His love. I am a convert myself and the journey to the faith was such a blessed one.

The Pope and the bishops may, if they deem it proper, give permission to non-Catholics who do indeed accept the dogma of transubstantiation. It is my understanding that many Anglicans and Episcopalians do so believe. I've known two Episcopalians who were given permission to receive in my parish.

When we Catholics come together in Eucharist, we break open the Word and we break open the Body. And we respectfully ask that those among who do not accept that the Bread and Wine are indeed His Body refrain from partaking, just as we ask that little children, not yet ready to accept that tenet also refrain.

Although I wish she had respected our religious traditions (in the same way that a gentile male dons a yarmuke before entering a synagogue or temple, that a non-Muslim woman refrains from invading a group of men at prayer, etc.), Ms. Quinn did not "offend" God by receiving, nor did her reception shatter the faith of those of us who truly believe, anymore than the marriage of two men in California can shatter the matrimonial bonds of a man and a woman. It merely indicates that she did not have the sense of etiquette expects in society. She was not a "perfect stranger.."

I can understand your desire to honor your friend's memory and the traditions that were important to him. But deliberately going against what his Faith teaches and illictly receiving the Holy Eucharist is, in my opinion, a poor way to demonstrate that love and respect.

Far from opening up a conversation, as you put it, you have further alienated traditional, practicing Catholics from whatever point it was that you were trying to make. To us, what you have done is desecrate the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, as He is wholly present in the sacrament of the Eucharist.

Tim Russert is now in the loving hands of our Father in Heaven. Somehow I doubt that either one of them was particularly pleased by your choice to receive what you do not accept and do not believe -- the real Presence of Jesus Christ.

Judy-in-Texas -- thank you for your lovely note to Sally. THough I no longer share your Catholic beliefs, I can easily see your goodness showing through in your writing.

It's quite a relief to see it here.

Dear Sally:
When I was a child, 10 or 11 years old, I had a good friend who was Baptist.
In those daze, we lived in the buckle of the Bible Belt and competition and accusations of apostasy were flung back and forth between denominations.
It was summertime and my best friend, Dianna, came to my house for a sleepover. The next morning was the First Friday of the month and my mother got us up to go to Mass.
When time came for Communion, we all got up and knelt at the altar rail to receive Communion. Dianna paid attention, followed our lead, and received Communion with us.
My mother, a typical Louisiana Catholic (:-)), made us wait after Mass and went tearing off to the sacristy, in a panic, to breathlessly report that Dianna, 10 years of age, a Baptist, had received Communion (horrors!!!).
Father Prendergast told my mother to calm down, relax, and not to make an issue out of it.
He pointed out it didn't hurt her, and there was no need to get upset.
He told my mother to leave it alone and not worry about it.
Oh, my mother -- not worry? -- oh, no.
On the way back to the house, she started lecturing Dianna (severely) that she should NEVER do that again, yada-yada.
That was the last sleep-over Dianna and I ever had together.
Notice the severe rants you see already being posted in response to your article.
My goodness, folks.
Ms. Quinn is not an ax-murderer, for pete's sake.
Ignore 'em, Sally.
If receiving Communion at Tim's funeral Mass made you feel closer to him in his new state of existance, it didn't hurt one bit.
Because you are now an adult and you understand the theological basis for Communion, the concept that we believe Christ is actually personally present to you in a very special way, and with Him, as a factor of the Communion of Saints, Tim Russert was personally present to you, as well.
You were spiritually experiencing one of the deepest concepts of the Catholic Faith.
(If you ever wonder why they say, "Once a Catholic, always a Catholic," it's my belief this core tenet of faith, which sustains us so often in crises, is one reason.)
I hope you were comforted.
And I'm absolutely certain Mr. Russett was delighted that you would participate with him in this ritual.
These repressive stiff-necks on this forum need to get a grip, take a breath and calm down.
If priests and bishops can use Communion as a political club to publically humiliate politicians, I see your experience as the direct opposite:
You are affirming the great value of receiving Communion and, in one way, validating the belief in the Communion of Saints.
I'm sure in Christ's eyes, your approach to our Communion ritual is much more salutory than the corruption (my opinion) of the use of Communion mentioned above.
Something tells me they both welcomed you with open arms and you truly experienced a sense of that in a spiritual way.
Nothing wrong with that whatsoever.
The only other thing I would say is, rather than make that experience a habit, talk to a priest whom you trust and get some instruction in the meaning of the ritual.
And God bless you.
I'm certain Christ Jeaus and Tim both blessed you at that moment and do now, for having the courage to bring the subject up in this forum.

Dear Sally:
When I was a child, 10 or 11 years old, I had a good friend who was Baptist.
In those daze, we lived in the buckle of the Bible Belt and competition and accusations of apostasy were flung back and forth between denominations.
It was summertime and my best friend, Dianna, came to my house for a sleepover. The next morning was the First Friday of the month and my mother got us up to go to Mass.
When time came for Communion, we all got up and knelt at the altar rail to receive Communion. Dianna paid attention, followed our lead, and received Communion with us.
My mother, a typical Louisiana Catholic (:-)), made us wait after Mass and went tearing off to the sacristy, in a panic, to breathlessly report that Dianna, 10 years of age, a Baptist, had received Communion (horrors!!!).
Father Prendergast told my mother to calm down, relax, and not to make an issue out of it.
He pointed out it didn't hurt her, and there was no need to get upset.
He told my mother to leave it alone and not worry about it.
Oh, my mother -- not worry? -- oh, no.
On the way back to the house, she started lecturing Dianna (severely) that she should NEVER do that again, yada-yada.
That was the last sleep-over Dianna and I ever had together.
Notice the severe rants you see already being posted in response to your article.
My goodness, folks.
Ms. Quinn is not an ax-murderer, for pete's sake.
Ignore 'em, Sally.
If receiving Communion at Tim's funeral Mass made you feel closer to him in his new state of existance, it didn't hurt one bit.
Because you are now an adult and you understand the theological basis for Communion, the concept that we believe Christ is actually personally present to you in a very special way, and with Him, as a factor of the Communion of Saints, Tim Russert was personally present to you, as well.
You were spiritually experiencing one of the deepest concepts of the Catholic Faith.
(If you ever wonder why they say, "Once a Catholic, always a Catholic," it's my belief this core tenet of faith, which sustains us so often in crises, is one reason.)
I hope you were comforted.
And I'm absolutely certain Mr. Russett was delighted that you would participate with him in this ritual.
These repressive stiff-necks on this forum need to get a grip, take a breath and calm down.
If priests and bishops can use Communion as a political club to publically humiliate politicians, I see your experience as the direct opposite:
You are affirming the great value of receiving Communion and, in one way, validating the belief in the Communion of Saints.
I'm sure in Christ's eyes, your approach to our Communion ritual is much more salutory than the corruption (my opinion) of the use of Communion mentioned above.
Something tells me they both welcomed you with open arms and you truly experienced a sense of that in a spiritual way.
Nothing wrong with that whatsoever.
The only other thing I would say is, rather than make that experience a habit, talk to a priest whom you trust and get some instruction in the meaning of the ritual.
And God bless you.
I'm certain Christ Jeaus and Tim both blessed you at that moment and do now, for having the courage to bring the subject up in this forum.

TOM CVITKOVIC says, “I and other Roman Catholics will keep you in prayer for the grave sin you committed….”

But Tom, Sally’s not Catholic, so it’s not a sin for her, right? Bad manners, maybe, insensitive, perhaps, but not a sin. Does it say somewhere in the catechism that Catholic sins apply to non-Catholics as well? I don’t remember that part.

Anyhow, there must be far graver sins for you and your other Catholic friends to pray about – why focus on this celebrity who went to communion once? What about all the Catholics not-in-good-standing who go to communion all the time? Shouldn’t you pray for them? What about all the aborted babies? Really, why waste your prayers on Sally Quinn?

Hey, what about the priest who gave her communion? Didn’t HE know she wasn’t catholic?? And she probably wasn’t the only heathen journalist filching communion in a misguided attempt to honor their colleague. Seems to me that priest is in big trouble. You and your league of deeply offended Catholics should track him down and turn him in to the Bishop.

Hey, wouldn’t the Bishop already know about this? What course of action has he taken?

This is big, really big. I can see this thing going all the way to the Vatican.

Dear Sally:
When I was a child, 10 or 11 years old, I had a good friend who was Baptist.
In those daze, we lived in the buckle of the Bible Belt and competition and accusations of apostasy were flung back and forth between denominations.
It was summertime and my best friend, Dianna, came to my house for a sleepover. The next morning was the First Friday of the month and my mother got us up to go to Mass.
When time came for Communion, we all got up and knelt at the altar rail to receive Communion. Dianna paid attention, followed our lead, and received Communion with us.
My mother, a typical Louisiana Catholic (:-)), made us wait after Mass and went tearing off to the sacristy, in a panic, to breathlessly report that Dianna, 10 years of age, a Baptist, had received Communion (horrors!!!).
Father Prendergast told my mother to calm down, relax, and not to make an issue out of it.
He pointed out it didn't hurt her, and there was no need to get upset.
He told my mother to leave it alone and not worry about it.
Oh, my mother -- not worry? -- oh, no.
On the way back to the house, she started lecturing Dianna (severely) that she should NEVER do that again, yada-yada.
That was the last sleep-over Dianna and I ever had together.
Notice the severe rants you see already being posted in response to your article.
My goodness, folks.
Ms. Quinn is not an ax-murderer, for pete's sake.
Ignore 'em, Sally.
If receiving Communion at Tim's funeral Mass made you feel closer to him in his new state of existance, it didn't hurt one bit.
Because you are now an adult and you understand the theological basis for Communion, the concept that we believe Christ is actually personally present to you in a very special way, and with Him, as a factor of the Communion of Saints, Tim Russert was personally present to you, as well.
You were spiritually experiencing one of the deepest concepts of the Catholic Faith.
(If you ever wonder why they say, "Once a Catholic, always a Catholic," it's my belief this core tenet of faith, which sustains us so often in crises, is one reason.)
I hope you were comforted.
And I'm absolutely certain Mr. Russett was delighted that you would participate with him in this ritual.
These repressive stiff-necks on this forum need to get a grip, take a breath and calm down.
If priests and bishops can use Communion as a political club to publically humiliate politicians, I see your experience as the direct opposite:
You are affirming the great value of receiving Communion and, in one way, validating the belief in the Communion of Saints.
I'm sure in Christ's eyes, your approach to our Communion ritual is much more salutory than the corruption (my opinion) of the use of Communion mentioned above.
Something tells me they both welcomed you with open arms and you truly experienced a sense of that in a spiritual way.
Nothing wrong with that whatsoever.
The only other thing I would say is, rather than make that experience a habit, talk to a priest whom you trust and get some instruction in the meaning of the ritual.
And God bless you.
I'm certain Christ Jeaus and Tim both blessed you at that moment and do now, for having the courage to bring the subject up in this forum.

The Holy Catholic Church invites all Catholics who are NOT in a state of mortal sin to receive this sacrament. To those invited at the Mass, the Catholic priest offers communion and the invited ones "receive" the Body and Blood of their Lord, Jesus, the Messiah.

Sally used the correct wording; she "took" communion without authorization. In other words, she stole it. She was incapable of "receiving" communion because she was, unfortunately, not invited. See 1 Corinthians 11:29, those who take communion unworthily, eat and drink unto their own damnation.

The prohibition asking those who are not Catholic or who are in a state of mortal sin to refrain from taking communion is simply the Holy Church trying to protect them from further sin. (To those who will hear: It is a forceful merging of two bodies to which one of them has not given consent, akin to rape.)

Communion isn't about showing respect for the departed. It's about receiving a gift from God.

I'm tempted to say that, despite your claim to respect various beliefs, taking communion against the rules is just about the quitessential act of disrespect to Catholicism.

I'm also tempted to say that Catholic teaching on this issue is quite clear -- i.e., non-Catholics can't take communion at mass.

However, if you are correct in your claim that recent popes have offered communion to non-Catholics, it's harder to make such statements. It's difficult to say that something is "clear Catholic teaching" when the pope doesn't follow it.

Of course popes can sin, and in these cases they may have. But it's unreasonable to expect a layman to be able to parse all the intricacies of Catholic theology, and the rule you claim to have followed -- "if the pope did it I guess it's okay" -- may excuse you.

Nevertheless, on balance I think your action was selfish and disrespectful.

As I am sure you know, Sally, that the genesis of communion was during the Last Supper when Jesus took the elements of wine and bread representing His blood and body and told His disciples to 'do this in rememberance of me'. In essence, it is a declaration that those who take communion are declaring they are followers/believers of Jesus. My question is that what you were declaring when you partook of communion at Tim's funeral? Seems like Tim thinks so.

Ms. Quinn says she took Communion to honor her friend. I would say that Mr. Russert, being himself a practicing Catholic, would have urged her to refrain, out of respect for him, and his Roman Catholic faith, had he been there to speak to her. She shows a complete lack of understanding of the meaning of faith. We are not at a new restaurant, trying some new cuisine with our friends of another ethnic background. The very act of participating in Holy Communion in a church where you have little or no regard for the sacrament, and receive it for reasons outside of faith, desecrates and denigrates the sacrament. If you want to participate, find a priest or a good RCIA program at a local Catholic church, and undertand the depth and gravity of what it was you did so lightly, because it felt "good" in the moment. I assure you, if you did that, you would not dare to approach the sacrament without deep humility and utmost gratitude. And you would find peace beyond all understanding, rather than nausea.

THank you for your article. I invite you to study more about the Catholic faith. That feeling of closeness you felt to Tim and God could be magnified 100 fold when you come into the faith, and receive the other sacraments. The Eucharist is the greatest gift of God here on earth, and you were blessed, even as a non-Catholic to literally get a "taste" of that gift. Now, knowing and respecting the power of that gift, you can learn more about it, and maybe someday, in full communion with the Catholic church receive that gift often!

God bless.

We Roman Catholics have a special love for Jesus in the Eucharist. We believe that the host we receive is the body, blood, soul, divinity of Jesus Christ. You do not believe that. Non Catholics are not allowed to participate in holy communion.
Would I be allowed to show up at your job, sit in your desk, and start writing? No..... Why? Because I do not work for your company. Hence you are not a member of our faith so you cannot participate in our communion.
I and other Roman Catholics will keep you in prayer for the grave sin you committed and may God forgive you.... God bless you

Mark 7:24-37

http://www.thewitness.org/article.php?id=1119

actually, these were your words sally-

"Last Wednesday I was determined to take it [the Eucharist] for Tim, transubstantiation notwithstanding. I'm so glad I did. It made me feel closer to him. And it was worth it just to imagine how he would have loved it."

Quinn also admitted the following: "I had only taken communion once in my life, at an evangelical church. It was soon after I had started 'On Faith' and I wanted to see what it was like. Oddly I had a slightly nauseated sensation after I took it, knowing that in some way it represented the body and blood of Jesus Christ."

do you realy really imagine Mr. Russert would have loved your taking communion?

one doesnt take communion to feel closer to one's friend- one does it to be unified with the divine-
i'm sure Mr Russert- while he may have appreciated your zeal- would have gently remonstrated you that it would be dishonoring his most deeply convicted beliefs to do so-

E-FAVE- it's not about what the god feels is worthy- ot's about having the remot4est awareness of and senstivity to what other human beings on the planet hold sacred- and showing at least the minimum of amount of respect for and knoweldge about those tender feelings-

the fact that ms quinn tries to blow it off by revealing that she actually HAS some bit of awareness - but "didn't see a sign" posted-

shows that she did indeed know in advance that her actions may cause some consternation to the catholics present- and that her own "feelings", were, in her mind, more important than those of the other human beings at the service.

compound that with her 'advice' at the end- which she herself didn't take- is another dismal spiritually inept face-saving by the increasingly narcissistic ms quinn-

i counted 11 "I's" and "me's" in the very first small paragraph-

when i read her posts- i sometimes count the I's,me's and mine's- mostly because it is always amazing to see the abundance of them-

[Slightly adapted from my post on the Cal Thomas thread:]

Sally, as I see it, you have two problems when it comes to taking communion.

1) You have never been a catholic and might look awkward to clergy and other catholics when taking communion.

2) You are a celebrity known not to be Catholic.

Thus you are easy to spot at the communion rail. In contrast, Catholics-turned-atheist like me have no problem fitting in. I've got all the right Catholic moves and no one knows who I am. It's easy for me to take communion at funerals, which I always make a point of doing.

I suppose there are many communicants like me who no longer believe in God or at least don't think Christ is present in the Eucharist. Some may only attend the occasional funeral. But I bet others go to mass regularly and maybe are even pledging members at a Catholic church. Why would they do such a thing? Maybe to fit in, maybe out of habit, maybe because they’re used to not letting catholic doctrine stand in their way. After all - many practicing catholics don't support the church's stand on abortion or homosexuality. How likely are those people to honor rules about communion?

So beware, Defenders of the Faith - heretics are all around you, cleverly disguised as Catholics in Good Standing - filching communion wafers when you least suspect it and on a regular basis.

More severe measures are called for to end this heresy.

Perhaps "Of Faith" contributors can think of some measures to apprehend these blasphemous clandestine operators.

When a friend of mine who works at Newsweek told me about the new OnFaith blog I could not have imagined a more unlikely choice of moderator. It would seem that anyone placed at the nexus of a dialogue about faith and religion ought to have at least a little bit of one or the other. Your genuine and innocent participation in a Catholic holy ritual resulted in a backlash that took you by surprise. A chastening experience that, indeed, told you how little you do understand about the mysteries of faith. One can't just skim across the surface of religions, sampling, to deeply connect to God. It's like marriage, you have to make the commitment to the relationship to God in order to fully understand divine love and grow your soul. That's why Catholics were offended. The level of "participation" you speak of is perceived as a kind of "sleeping around"...maybe that's why it hasn't been really satisfying for you yet...

Sally mentions that William Donahue suggested that praying for Russert - "That’s what Catholics do” - would have been a way to feel close to him "without trampling on Catholic sensibilities."

Well, there's a lot I don't remember about Catholic teachings, but to me this sounds like god will accept prayers from someone he rejects for communion. I had no idea.

So here's an invitation to all you sensitive non-catholics out there: please pray for the repose of the souls of all your departed catholic friends, but remember - you are not worthy to feast at the Lord's table.