A holiday for every American

Reports of the "death" of attacks on public creches "have been greatly exaggerated." Here is a current one from an AP feed. The creche and menorah have been displayed for many years (until now):
Dec 17, 5:33 PM EST

Creche, menorah removed from Pa. courthouse lawn

WILKES-BARRE, Pa. (AP) -- Officials in northeastern Pennsylvania have removed a pair of religious holiday symbols from a public space after being threatened with legal action.

Luzerne County commissioners took down the creche (CRESH') and menorah from the courthouse lawn on Wednesday after receiving an objection from two civil liberties groups.

The ACLU and Americans United for Separation of Church and State told the county in a Dec. 11 letter that the displays are an unconstitutional government endorsement of religion...."

(partial quote above is fair use; full report can be seen at http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_RELIGIOUS_SYMBOLS_REMOVED?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US)

Patrick

Those lawsuits were not about which songs should be allowed at which school pageants. If that were the case, they could have easily been settled out of court. I am sure it was about a Christian majority bullying a non-Christian minority. What about that don't you get? When you thought I objected to "Merry Christmas," you tried to rub my nose in it, didn't you?

You are a bully and a snob. Your arguments are in bad faith. You represent the bully, but play the victim.

You are totally and completely free to practice your religion any way that you want, to celebrate Christmas any way that you want, you are bubbling over with freedom and liberty to do as you please; yet that is not enough. What are we going to to with people like you?

Patrick

No! I didn't read the cases you cited! What a waste of time. I don't care. You are the one obsessed with this stuff, not me.

I do not object to the greeting
"Merry Christmas." Nobody I know does. I cannot imagine anyone anywhere would. It is only in your head. Why don't you just let go of it, get over it?

There is plenty of Christmas, plenty, both secular and religious. What world do you live in, that you do not hear the greeting "Merry Christmas" 2 dozen times a day? And why do you attach such religious importance to it, since there is nothing at all religious about is there?

I am sorry for you that your only joy in saying Merry Christmas is that it might get on someone else's nerves. To me, that is weird. That is the most I am allowed to say, or else I will be accused of getting all "ad hominum" on you.

Daniel resorts in his latest missive to repeated ad hominem argument in his claims that I am paranoid, belittling of his rural ways (versus my "New York citified" ways), and "proud" for having cited some court cases. He dismisses my substantive point with this:

"What you object to is a restriction on some songs in school and on the creche being displayed in a court house or a state capital. I cannot fathom any human existence that has so little to worry or wonder about."

That is probably because Daniel did not bother to read the cases I cited, which show that other "human existences" have also been concerned with the efforts to restrict songs in school and creches in public settings.

In all events, Daniel says he has no objection to anyone saying Merry Christmas and wants to conclude the exchange, so I will conclude the exchange with a hearty "Merry Christmas" to all.

Patrick

I have ZERO objection to people saying Merry Christmas. I was trying to point out that people say it all the time. Since I hear people say it all the time, and see it in writing all the time, I can hardly buy into your paranoia that it is being stamped out. If it is being stamped out, then why do I hear it so much? And if it is being stamped out, then how were able to say it?

You have not understood a single thing I have said. The thesis of "you people" is that there is a campaign to stamp out the public celebration of Christmas. All I sought to do was point out that in my experience at least, there was never much public celebraton of Christmas. So how can it be stamped out? It can only go up, from zero. Your response was to belittle my rural experience, as though your New York citified ways are superior.

What you object to is a restriction on some songs in school and on the creche being displayed in a court house or a state capital. I cannot fathom any human existence that has so little to worry or wonder about.

As I said before, I have no obection at all to anyone saying Merry Christmas in any setting, any time, even at the local pool in July, and I don't know anybody who does. Do you? (besides the court cases that you are so proud of citing?)

I was merely trying to make a few points. Sorry that you didn't get any of it. I will remember that, the next time I am tempted to reply to you.

And by the way, no one is here but you and me, so just who do you think you are talking to?

Daniel concludes his 12-17 12:40 PM post with:

"It is December 17, and I am being "Merry Christmassed" to death. I cannot imagine what world you are living in, that you think there is a war on Christmas.
Maybe people like you are just a little too pushy, and a little too senstive when people push back."

In prior posts, I have referenced specific legal cases on the issue of permissible references to Christmas in public events/buildings. I recognize the wisdom of: "but you can't make them drink...." though. So, Daniel can ignore them if he chooses, but they took up significant time before the courts.

I realize these historical realities, though. If that makes me "pushy" in Daniel's mind, so be it. I won't be sensitive about his effort at mind reading, and I will continue to point out my concern with efforts to ban references to Christ in "Christmas" or generic "Holiday" celebrations.

And as to Daniel's "being "Merry Christmassed" to death" as he puts it: THAT might be a mite "sensitive" to a well-intentioned wish. So, Daniel, cover your eyes or don't translate, if you wish, as I say: Happy Hannukah, Happy Kwanzaa, Happy Holidays, Feliz Navidad, Bom Natal, Buon Natale, Joyeux Noel, Merry X-Mas and yes, Merry CHRISTmas to all!

Patrick

I am not ignoring your fights; I have just never encountered all of this strife and difficulty in my own person experience. I see alot of people fussing and fuming over the war on Christmas; I just don't see the war.

I have never been a participant on either side, or a witness, in any court case between the pro- and anti- Christmas factions.

All I can tell you is that in my elementary and high school days, we did not have Holiday or Christmas concerts in school, since school was for learning to read and write, and not for religion.

We had a Chritmas tree at church; we had Santa Claus at church; we exchanged gifts at church; we had a Christmas pageant at church; we also sang Christmas carols at church, and read from the Bible outloud, about the Christmas story, which I am pretty sure is the same in Catholic-talk as it is in Protestant-talk, Mary, the angel, Jesus, the shepherds, the heavenly hosts singing, Glory to God on the highest ... how is Catholic Christmas any different or better?

And outside of my church, in the same little town of 2,000 people, there were eleven other churches, all doing the same things.

It is December 17, and I am being "Merry Christmassed" to death. I cannot imagine what world you are living in, that you think there is a war on Christmas.

Maybe people like you are just a little too pushy, and a little too senstive when people push back.

Daniel tries to ignore the reality that there have been repeated efforts to eliminate religious themes from public celebrations of the "holidays" over the last few decades by hearkening back to the American South of Yesteryear where there were few such celebrations because of Jim Crow laws. He dismisses my proof that there were such celebrations outside the South with: "So much for public celebration of Christmas before about 1970." Whatever that is supposed to mean, the fact remains that not all the US was enthralled to Jim Crow and regular public celebrations of Christmas occurred outside the South prior to 1970.

Daniel goes on to ask this question that ignores the past 40 years of history:
"Do you think there has been a deliberate campaing to stamp out this custom, or is it just, times change, people change?"

To restate the obvious: since 1970, there have been wars about what smidgeon of religion is permissible or not in school "holiday" events and in public buildings. It has gotten so absurd that some judges have allowed trees and menorahs but not creches (See, e.g., Skoros v. City of New York; County of Allegheny v. ACLU). Judges have also gotten involved in the question of what songs are permissible at public school Holiday concerts. Daniel has ignored those fights and I therefore put them on the record.

Patrick

Yes, the Protestant South is a very different place than the Bronx. But I am not making this up; that is how it was. What is your point?

In the Jim Crowe South, the government discouraged ALL public assemblies of any kind, because there was always tension between the races, even at Christmas time. So much for public celebration of Christmas before about 1970.

Is the Christmas tree lighting ceremony with Carols in the park broadcast on the radio now done away with? Is there anything to replace it? If there is nothing to replace at that exact spot, is there anything to replace it in your life? Do you think there has been a deliberate campaing to stamp out this custom, or is it just, times change, people change?

PBS broadcasts alot of Christmas programming this time of year, with real Chistmas Carols, such as "Oh Come All Ye Faithful" and "Hark the Herald Angels Sing." There is also alot of religious Christian programming on cable-TV. There are also many, many Christian radio stations broadcasting all over the country.

And if all else fails in your quest for Christmas Carols at this time of year, there is always a last resort:

church!

In addition to his recollections about the messages his father used to include in Christmas cards, Daniel notes in response to my prior post that showed that religious carols were an integral part of the NYC Borough of the Bronx celebration of the annual Christmas Tree Lighting Ceremony, on public park land (and carried over a municipal radio station):

"My point was, that, there never has been any grand government sponsored public celebration of Christmas, at least not in any place where I have ever lived."

To repeat myself, the Protestant South probably had a different attitude toward Christmas than Catholic areas for a number of reasons related to theological disagreements too complicated to go through on this blog. Those theological differences are, moreover, irrelevant to the question of what elements are appropriate for inclusion in public celebrations of Christmas because the elements that are usually included are those that are generally accepted across the broad spectrum of Christian denominations.

I gave very specific evidence (down to the name of the public park and its street location) of public celebration of the religious side of Christmas during my Youth. Daniel can quibble about how "grand" the celebration was but it clearly was a public celebration by a major political subdivision that recognized the religious dimension to Christmas. (Note: at the time, the Bronx had a population of more than 1.4 Million people).

Patrick

I don't think you really answered my question. Should we dress up like the Wisemen and ride camels through the street?

How does lighting a tree have anything to do with Christ, and if you wanted to sing Carols in the park, or anywhere else, couldn't you? If you don't sing Carols at Christmas time, it is just because you don't, not because anyone has banned it.

My point was, that, there never has been any grand government sponsored public celebration of Christmas, at least not in any place where I have ever lived.

I even remember, distinctly, that my father always chose Christmas cards with some innocuous greeting such as "Seasons Greetings" or "Happy Holidays" because he wanted to send some of them to people who did not attend church (atheism was an unknown concept in those days). This is a distinct memory, but people like you act like it is some recent thing, to stamp our Christmas. But it is not. You are wrong.

As I recall, Christmas celebration was all at church, or at home. That seemed normal then. Why should it be different now? And what about that bothers you?

The at times anti-Christian Farrnaz writes:

"I'd like to see the recently declared Darwin's Fish lit up on the White House lawn on December 25th in honor of the enlightened atheism, the illuminating humanity to which we should aspire."

Why on Dec. 25? Darwin was actually born the same day as Abraham Lincoln and in the same year (oh happy felicity!). So, it would be more appropriate to have Darwin Day celebrated as an alternative celebration to Lincoln's Birthday. Or maybe that would not accomplish Farnaz's goal??

Daniel lays out the history of the celebration of Christmas in his Southern (and very Protestant) town and asks:

"Just what should we all be doing to celebrate Christmas publically?"

I think there will be regional differences among Christmas celebrations as long as there are differences in Christian churches. Back in my youth in the very mixed Catholic-Jewish Bronx, we used to sing religious carols at the lighting of the Bronx's Christmas Tree in Joyce Kilmer Park on the Grand Concourse and the ceremony was carried over New York's Municipal Radio Station (the now very politically correct, WNYC). In all events, those are denominational differences expressed in regional guise.

What's more, due to those denominational differences even within particular locales, public celebrations will tend to be--as they are--minimalist celbrations. For example, we Catholics love Christmas celebrations that emphasize the role of the Holy Family, but, as good ecumenical partners of our "separated brethren," we are content to go along with far more neutral presentations of the Christmas story. We would reserve the full story for the presentation done at church, and that is perfectly fine.

While a more neutral presentation makes sense for the public celebration of Christmas, it is unacceptable to prohibit all reference to Christ in Christmas. The creche is no more "religious" than a menorah is; yet its presence creates so much strife among those nominally dedicated to "civil liberties." Why Christians' right to public expression should be any more restricted than other religionists' has never been established with any credibility. If you'd like to take a stab at that, please do.

I'd like to see the recently declared Darwin's Fish lit up on the White House lawn on December 25th in honor of the enlightened atheism, the illuminating humanity to which we should aspire.

Patrick

Just what should we all be doing to celebrate Christmas publically?

When I was a little boy in 1950's Virginia, in a little southern town, there was a large creche in front of the Methodist Church, about one-quarter life size.

The town hung tattered old lights over the streets with a big lit star in the middle of each one. They were hung haphazardly, assymetrically, wihtout much care. There were about 10 of these.

There was a Christmas parade about the first Saturday of December, mostly firetrucks, the highschool marching band, and a final float with Santa.

In school, there were no Christmas celebrations at all, except each class room had a little party at the end of the day before Christmas break, which consisted of cake and ice-cream. A few people would give the teacher a present, but this practice was discouraged.

Some people decorated the exterior of their houses with lights and Christmas greenery. There was a town contest for the best home decoration. The winner was ALAWYS someone who had placed Christmas wreaths on their doors or under their windows, or who put single lit candles in their windows. Colorful lighting displays NEVER won (to the disappointment of us kids). I suppose the judges had good taste.

In the town, there was one Jewish family, and one Catholic family. There were also a few families who were known not to attend church. Everyone else went to one of the 12 churches. Christmas was celebrated at church and at home.

All this nostalgia for the public celebration of Christmas is just alot of BUNK! It never happened, at least not in my small southern town.

Daniel writes to me:
"How is the President destroying Christmas by putting a creche in the White House?
You just have a negative reflex against Obama, no matter what he says, or does."

He's not. Not now, anyway. Obama backed down on Desiree Rogers' original plans for a non-religious Christmas as Ms. Quinn's article notes. Had he gone through with the original plan he would have been destroying the PUBLIC celebration of Christmas at his particular venue, but he would NOT have been destroying Christmas. That has been tried with particular venom on several occasions, but it never works. Christmas is much too wonderful a holiday to succumb to any effort to destroy it.

Patricksarsfield

How is the President destroying Christmas by putting a creche in the White House?

You just have a negative reflex against Obama, no matter what he says, or does.

Ms. Quinn,

Speaking as a non-Christian, let me say that I and others that I know personally find nothing wrong with living in Christian nation. In fact, it is the very idea of it being a Christian nation that made many of us move here from India in the 50s and the 60s.

Post-British India was reeling from centuries of British rule, and was struggling with corruption, poverty, and an outdated infrastructure and bureaucratic government. So, whether it was for health, money, or quality of life; a group of adventurous, educated South Asians moved here to pursue a better life. They all found a sense of honesty, work ethic, and good Samaritan values that were undeniably Christian. And, it is in gratefulness to this that they remained, despite being faced by occasional racism, and the overwhelming loneliness of an individualistic society.

I am proud to be a product of the next generation of South Asian Americans who are comfortable to call America home, and are comfortable to celebrate our Own Festival of Light over Darkness with people of other faiths, if only as a beacon of what this country once represented to our parents.

And, if this nation does see a Hindu President, I am sure that he or she would not mind putting up a Christmas tree and a Menorah.

Ms. Quinn is just plain wrong when she writes: "It's time that we all accepted the fact that this is not a Christian nation." In fact, of course, the US IS a Christian nation just as Syria and Egypt are Muslim nations and Israel is a Jewish nation.

Sure, there are significant numbers of non-Muslims in Syria and Egypt and "Gentiles" in Israel, but the great bulk of the population of each of those countries is Muslim (or in the Israeli case, Jewish). Likewise, there are non-Christians among the population of the US but the great bulk (77% or so) is Christian.

That is not to say that non-Christians should be discriminated against in the US as minorities are subject to discrimination in those Mideastern countries, but Ms. Quinn's and Mr. Obama's attempt to destroy public celebration of Christmas should go the way of similar prior efforts in the past by such haters as Oliver Cromwell.

In fact, of course, Christmas is not going to go away and even if Barack Hussein Obama chooses to diss Christmas the Celebration will survive his effort. Obama, though, is giving us one more example of how little respect he has for the immemorial customs of this land.

We Christians, though, are a lot more tolerant than Ms. Quinn thinks. There will not be "blood in the streets" as she so cavalierly predicts, if Obama's people keep up Ms. Rogers' effort at eliminating religious notes from the White House's Year-end decor. However, Obama's limited tenancy of the residence is set to end on 1/21/13 at which point a saner respect for the traditions of this land is likely to hold sway going forward.

Michelle is too intimidated by DESIREE ROGERS to fire her.

Sally...

Sally ... Sally ... Sally ...

One thing I will say about you: you sure have alot of guts.

This idea is going to go over like a lead brick thrown at an abortion clinic.

I can't wait to see all the Christian "love" that will be coming your way in these comments.

Let the mud-slinging begin.

We need a National Festivus Pole on the Mall, where everyone can gather and air their grievances! :D