God the punisher of children?

twmatthews

You wrote, "Okay, I understand that just because someone says they are a Christian doesn't make them so. Does that apply to you?"

Of course it does, however, I say that I am a messenger and that I did not choose me but God chose me.

You then wrote, "It seems to me that there are many people who claim knowledge about what God is like, what he wants them to do or say, but feel no inclination to provide even the slightest bit of evidence to back up these sayings."

I have said many times that not only won't I "provide even the slightest bit of evidence" but that I can't but God will in due time, God's Time.

You then wrote, "What separates you from Spidermean, who claims total understanding of scripture because he is filled with -- ah I was tempted to say full of sh** but I will say filled with the holy spirit?"

One of the things that separates us, is that I do NOT claim " total understanding of scripture".

You then wrote, "Why are your claims of speaking for God any different than the claims of one of the 19"

Time will tell.

You then wrote, "When faith is the basis of belief and reason takes a back seat there is nothing from stopping people from doing horrific things, all in the name of their God."

Yes, this seems very true looking at history and the present but reason need not take a back seat, reason is also a gift from God.

You then wrote, "Many of the writers in this blog emphasize reason and evidence to back up belief and actions. How is this not superior to faith based action?"

If one is "honest", there have been many atrocious things done in the name of God but there have also been atrocious things done in the name of reason.

There are some that have a self-righteous, superior, holier than thou attitude and they include both those that have a belief in God and those that do not have a belief in God.

If one reads some of the different postings on various sites, it should be pretty obvious.

You then wrote, " (I've made some assumptions based on reading your comments and those from other columns in that you are a person of faith)."

As I have said, I used to believe in God and God, for whatever reason/reasons, revealed to me that God is a Being of Pure Love and is a Trinity.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Thomas Baum said:
Just because some people who call themself "Christian" says something, does that mean that it is "Christian theology"?

Okay, I understand that just because someone says they are a Christian doesn't make them so. Does that apply to you?

It seems to me that there are many people who claim knowledge about what God is like, what he wants them to do or say, but feel no inclination to provide even the slightest bit of evidence to back up these sayings.

What separates you from Spidermean, who claims total understanding of scripture because he is filled with -- ah I was tempted to say full of sh** but I will say filled with the holy spirit?

Why are your claims of speaking for God any different than the claims of one of the 19, 9/11 hijackers whose faith leads them to lay down his life for his "interpretation" of what God wants him to do and to gain immediate entrance to paradise (heaven)?

When faith is the basis of belief and reason takes a back seat there is nothing from stopping people from doing horrific things, all in the name of their God.

Many of the writers in this blog emphasize reason and evidence to back up belief and actions. How is this not superior to faith based action? (I've made some assumptions based on reading your comments and those from other columns in that you are a person of faith).

FarnazMansouri

You wrote, "I simply do not understand Christian theology. How Christians can view a devastating earthquake as punishment is completely beyond the scope of Judaic knowledge."

Who said it was "Christian theology"?

Just because some people who call themself "Christian" says something, does that mean that it is "Christian theology"?

Do you consider everything said by those that call themself Jewish to be "Jewish theology"?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

PSolus

I wrote, ""It is our choice whether or not to do "evil".""

You replied, "And are you the one to define what is "evil"?"

Do you think that there is no such thing as "evil" or "evil things" done in this world?

I wrote, ""If we had no choice, then we would be nothing more than "puppets on God's strings", would we not?""

You replied, "You, and people like you, would prefer that we had no choice."

There are those that say that there is no such thing as "free will", I am not one of them but some of these are behavior scientists that believe all of our "choices" are determined by the chemical, electrical and whatever make-up of a given human body and there are others.

By the way, "You, and people like you" seems like kind of a cop-out, doesn't it?

Just who are the "people like you" that you are referring to?

Seems as if a lot of people are into "labeling", all of us are individual and different human beings, none of us are identical clones.

Then, ""Free will does not mean that one has free will..."
That is exactly what it means.
"...but that all have free will, seems pretty obvious but then again maybe it isn't considering that some take for granted that if they do the "right thing" than others will do the "right thing" also."
That was just gibberish."

You split apart what I said and the point that I was making, I tried to simply say that we all have free will and how one uses their free will does not mean others will reciprocate in like manner.

As in the difference between, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and "Do unto others and they will do unto you", make sense now?

If you ever want to actually read what I write and think about it, that is fine with me and if you want to twist what I try to say to fit your pre-conceived notions that is also fine.

You wrote, "You are free to follow the voices in your head; just leave us out of it."

First off, where did you ever get this idea?

Second, who is the "us" and are you speaking for this "us" on your own or did you get chosen to be "us's" spokesperson?

God chose me to speak but I do not speak for any other human being, that is up to them.

You signed off, "Insincerely, Peregrine Bartleby Rumpelstiltskin Solus".

Is this your real name?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

?

Well; One thing I have noticed over the years I've heard of Robertson, Falwell and the rest. I posted this somewhere else in another site, so I'll repeat it here again.

Politicians and TV/Radio-evangelists do get along well because of what they have in common; and that's the need to have and hold a Real Job.

?

lepidopteryx

You wrote, "So if God KNEW that Eve WOULD eat the forbidden fruit before he ever created her, then she really didn't have the option not to do so."

Just because God knew what choice someone will make does not mean that they do not have that choice to begin with.

You then wrote, "Which is why I don't believe in omniscient, prescient, infallible gods."

Do you think that God knew that you would not believe in an "omniscient, prescient, infallible God?

Of course you don't but that doesn't mean God didn't.

Just because we can't conceive of God doesn't mean that God didn't conceive of us.

Some, that believe in God, want to put God in a context where God is completely understood and known by them whereas God is ultimately beyond our conception.

This does not mean that God can not and does not reveal something of Himself to people but any first-hand knowledge of God has to come from God to man (mankind).

There are plenty that believe in God and know absolutely nothing about God including some of those that do get God's Name right.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Yes, Jesus did die for believers and non-believers alike, Yeal. Thanks for pointing out that Pilate unwittingly did the will of God. Because of Christ's death on the Cross, our sins are forgiven.

From the greatest evil in the world- the Crucifixion of Jesus, the Son of God, came the greatest good.... salvation from sin.

Yes, a loving and merciful God has allowed mankind his freewill- which has brought sin into the world.

Take a look around Yeal.

We live in a fallen world. I don't live in the Garden of Eden, and I doubt if you do either. We live in a fallen world where we age, get sick, and our bodies die.

God allows sin in order to bring a greater good out of it. To say that God doesn't allow sin means that God is not omniscient.

BTW, there are worse things than bodily disease or death- sickness of soul losing your soul for eternity.

Actually, Jesus C. did not die for you or for me or for anyone else. He died because one Pontius Pilate decided that rabble-rousers would not be tolerated during the Jewish Passover. PP could have simply sent Jesus C. to the salt mines and then where would your theology be?

Christianity if you look at it realistically was dependent on the free will of PP and should therefore be called "Pilatianity".

BTW, so a loving and merciful god allows some children to be born blind, deaf or a host of other deformities???

God is merciful and just- but his mercy outhshines his justice. That's why Jesus has come to save us.

If God were not just, or in other words, if we didn't get punished for our misdeeds, we'd all still be in Eden.

I would say that our free will brought the "evil" down on us, and God's in his loving kindness allowed it.

A loving God does not allow disorder, chaos, and disobedience to go unanswered.

Of course, Schillebeeck assumed there is a god out there somewhere. But where? But there is always common sense and there is always Mom Nature. Then there is the recycling of the universe which easily explains the creation and destruction and creation and destruction over and over throughout the eons. No gods needed!!! No end either!!

Bravo, bravo, bravo, Ms. Quinn, and thank you.

As a Jew, I have to stand with the eminent critic, theorist Harold Bloom on this.

I simply do not understand Christian theology. How Christians can view a devastating earthquake as punishment is completely beyond the scope of Judaic knowledge.

It's also beyond the scope of almost every other kind of knowledge, saving that of psychopathology.

"Until people who claim God sends natural disasters in response to immoral acts can explain why Treblinka wasn't destroyed by lightning, I have no interest in their opinions. Posted by: WmarkW | February 25, 2010 7:21 AM "

This rings true for me.

"Simple, free will.
Not only that but there is an "evil one" who can and does come across as "mister nice guy"."

Are you referring to the bogeyman? Do you also believe in the bogeyman?

"It is our choice whether or not to do "evil"."

And are you the one to define what is "evil"?

"If we had no choice, then we would be nothing more than "puppets on God's strings", would we not?"

You, and people like you, would prefer that we had no choice.

"Free will does not mean that one has free will..."

That is exactly what it means.

"...but that all have free will, seems pretty obvious but then again maybe it isn't considering that some take for granted that if they do the "right thing" than others will do the "right thing" also."

That was just gibberish.

"What we do with our "free will" is our choice and that is one of the reasons that the Apostles said so many times, "These are hard sayings".

That makes no sense; again, gibberish.

"Some of the things that Jesus said go right against "human nature"."

I'm sure that you heard your imaginary buddy say many things, but the voices in your head can be ignored by intelligent people.

"Jesus did extend the invitation to "Come follow Me", some seem to think that spouting out Jesus's Name is the whole of following Him."

You are free to follow the voices in your head; just leave us out of it.

"I am very thankful that God is not even remotely like what some of those that know God's Name think God to be.'

Well, good for you.

"Take care, be ready."

Don't worry, be happy.

"Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum."

Insincerely, Peregrine Bartleby Rumpelstiltskin Solus

US Conscience,

If God is omniscient and prescient, then he knows what we will do before we are even conceived. If an omniscient, prescient, and infallible being KNOWS that something WILL happen, that thing MUST happen, or the being is neither omniscient, prescient, nor infallible. So if God KNEW that Eve WOULD eat the forbidden fruit before he ever created her, then she really didn't have the option not to do so.

Which is why I don't believe in omniscient, prescient, infallible gods.

Yeal9 - you are assuming that because God knows the beginning from the end that we do not have free will and are responsible for out decissions and actions. Or to put it another way: if we have free will and are responsible for our actions, that God can not know what the future holds.

The Bible teaches both. God does know the end from the beginning, and we do have free will and are responsible for our actions.

Your own experiences show you that you have free will and your conscience points you to the fact that you will be held responsible for your actions.

The fact that all the prophecies in the Bible have come 100 % true ( except the prophecies concerning the end of days / second coming ) prove that God does Know the end from the beginning.

So once again let us get to some reality.

As noted previously by other bloggers:

"Christians must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God the great scapegoat of history" .

"Nothing is determined in advance: in
nature there is chance and determinism (and miscarriages and disease and death); in the world of human activity there is possibility of free choices. Therefore the historical future is not known even to God; otherwise we and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."

From Schillebeeckx's book, Church: The Human Story of God, Crossroad, 1993, p.91 (paperback).

Of course, Schillebeeck assumed there is a god out there somewhere. But where? But there is common sense and there is always Mom Nature.

"Epicurus said:
1. if God is unable to prevent evil, he is not omnipotent
2. if God is not willing to prevent evil, he is not good
3. if God is willing and able to prevent evil, then why is there evil?"

answer: Consider light / darkness, heat / cold :: 'You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit down to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. 'Cold' is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, just the absence of it.'

Likewise darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker. Darkness isnt the opposite of light, but the absence of it.

'Evil does not exist or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when a person is separated from God and does not have God's love present in his soul. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.'

"Clearly, it is the atrocity of abortion and is purveyors such as Planned Parenthood that punishes innocent unborn children with death and exploits women in vulnerable states. God has nothing to do with it. This kind of horror can only be inflicted by human beings on other human beings."

So saith someone with the moniker of "Cthulhu". I guess you're against abortion because when the Elder Gods return, there will be more Humans to devour?

This is what Bob Marshall said,

The number of children who are born subsequent to a first abortion who have handicaps has increased dramatically. Why? Because when you abort the firstborn of any, nature takes its vengeance on the subsequent children. In the Old Testament, the first-born of every being, animal and man, was dedicated to the Lord. There’s a special punishment, Christians would suggest, and with the knowledge they have from faith has been verified by a study by the Virginia Commonwealth University. First abortions of the first pregnancy are much more damaging to the woman than latter abortions.

His comments are fairly inarticulate. That said, he may have said "nature" but when he said "nature taking its vengance" in the sentence preceding ones that mention the Old Testament, Christians, and knowledge they have from faith, he can oly be talking about God.

Sally Quinn raises some good points. Also, wasn't the first born "dedicated to the Lord" as a blood sacrifice? Isn't that what Abraham was supposed to do with Isaac? Isn't that what Jesus was all about?

to cymbeline2:
"and how does delegate marshall's god punish hate-mongering bigots who try to force their own particular brand of intolerance and narrow-mindedness on people who hold a system of beliefs different from their own?"

by making them Republicans...

Excuse me, but how does free will explain suffering and death from tsunamis and typhus and childhood leukemia? Want to blame Satan for death and suffering arising from natural disasters and disease? Okay, why does all-powerful, all-loving God allow Satan to operate in these ways? To build the character of survivors? To remind us He's in charge? Try selling that to the victims.

If you want to believe in the supernatural, then believe. Go your way in peace. But don't try to be employ reason or logic to make an argument. You don't win that argument.

and how does delegate marshall's god punish hate-mongering bigots who try to force their own particular brand of intolerance and narrow-mindedness on people who hold a system of beliefs different from their own?

Classic white supremacy logic... These people punished each other throughout the history of time...

Clearly, it is the atrocity of abortion and is purveyors such as Planned Parenthood that punishes innocent unborn children with death and exploits women in vulnerable states. God has nothing to do with it. This kind of horror can only be inflicted by human beings on other human beings.

I may have missed it but according to the quote provided he stated 'nature' not God.
It seems that Sally has construed this to mean God and generated unnecesssary controversy. In fact Sally has added all the other comments that were not part of his quote at all. Talk about poisoning the well, attacks ad hom., and such it is really poor journalism.

nicolinesmits1

You wrote,
"Epicurus said:
1. if God is unable to prevent evil, he is not omnipotent
2. if God is not willing to prevent evil, he is not good
3. if God is willing and able to prevent evil, then why is there evil?"

Simple, free will.

Not only that but there is an "evil one" who can and does come across as "mister nice guy".

It is our choice whether or not to do "evil".

If we had no choice, then we would be nothing more than "puppets on God's strings", would we not?

Free will does not mean that one has free will but that all have free will, seems pretty obvious but then again maybe it isn't considering that some take for granted that if they do the "right thing" than others will do the "right thing" also.

What we do with our "free will" is our choice and that is one of the reasons that the Apostles said so many times, "These are hard sayings".

Some of the things that Jesus said go right against "human nature".

Jesus did extend the invitation to "Come follow Me", some seem to think that spouting out Jesus's Name is the whole of following Him.

I am very thankful that God is not even remotely like what some of those that know God's Name think God to be.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Wait.. did Marshall say "nature" or "God"?

God created this comment section so we can all punish each other....

To whom it may concern:

""Vengeance is Mine", says the Lord."

Even tho the dictionary may say that revenge is a "synonym" for vengeange, there is a tremendous difference between the two.

Just as the "jealousy" of God is so different from the petty jealousy of man, the Vengeance of God is different than the blood-sucking revenge that man seeks.

It is very sad that so many speak about God that 'know Him not', including, but not limited to, the fact that God is not a Male, a Female or an It, even tho God-Incarnate was a Male.

See you all in the Kingdom and as I have said: God looks at the person, not the "label".

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". Government has no business imposing religious views of one group on society as a whole.

If people believe abortion is a crime against "God", that is exactly the reason it cannot be considered a crime in the nation's courts. Keep your religion out of everyone's government.

John Adams said it best:

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson

It's time for Stephen Crane to weigh in:

"And the sins of the fathers shall be
visited upon the heads of the children,
even unto the third and fourth
generation of them that hate me."

Well, then I hate thee, unrighteous picture;
Wicked image, I hate thee;
So, strike with thy vengeance
The heads of those little men
Who come blindly.
It will be a brave thing.

spidermean2

You wrote, "God has no mother. Even Jesus said in disgust, "Who is my mother?""

Do you believe that Jesus is God-Incarnate?

Who do you believe is Jesus's Mom, biologically speaking?

By the way, it was not in "disgust", did He not say, "Who is My mother, My brother, My sister"?

Did He not then say, "My mother, My brother, My sister is he (the person) who does the Will of My Father"?

Seems to me that Mary did the "Will of My Father", including but not limited to, in her "YES", "Let it be done unto me according to Thy Word".

Mary was Jesus's biological Mom and we are called to be Jesus's spiritual Mom and both biological and spiritual brothers and sisters, but no matter how you cut it, Mary is Jesus's biological Mom.

By the way, God's Plan is for ALL to be in the Kingdom, Jesus said, "Father forgive THEM", no astericks, no except fors.

Jesus died for us and we are called to die for others, not to gloat but to die, see you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom, the new heavens and the new earth.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

I read your post cstation with some interest. My question is "how do you know that God is love for certain"?

The problem with all religions, including Christianity, is that they are always misunderstood by some people, including some of those who are their leaders.

The Bible is not an American history book. Our culture is not the cultures of the Bible. The "Father" God of Jesus is in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) along with a bunch of other gods that we biblical people believe are references to the one God.

Remember the old story about the three blind men feeling different parts of an elephant and deciding this is what the elephant must be, all trunk, all big feet, or a tiny tail?

After a seminary degree, over 20 years as an ordained minister, and a lot of study and questions in between, I have come to the conclusion that I can know only two things for certain about God.

God is love.
God wants us to love each other and minister to the suffering.

As far as I can tell all the rest is guess work.

Monty Keeling

This is not a column about abortion, folks. Rein in your knee-jerking.

It is about revolting comments made by odious creatures such as Marshall, and endorsed by equally odious creatures such as Falwell and Robertson. In God's name, no less!

Wow, the lefties and righties are out in force today!!!!

So once again let us get to some reality. As noted previously by other bloggers:

"Christians must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God the great scapegoat of history" .

"Nothing is determined in advance: in
nature there is chance and determinism (and miscarriages and disease and death); in the world of human activity there is possibility of free choices. Therefore the historical future is not known even to God; otherwise we and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."

From Schillebeeckx's book, Church: The Human Story of God, Crossroad, 1993, p.91 (paperback).

Of course, Schillebeeck assumed there is a god out there somewhere. But where?

Ms. Quinn (and others above):

Please learn when it is best to be quiet.

(If you can not think of anything good to say, just put in some recipes.)

Socali, are you always this unstable or are you just off your meds today?

I am SICK AND TIRED of being blamed for every little natural disaster and example of human cruelty! Just cut it out! Sometimes an earthquake is just an earthquake, fercryinoutloud! Think I've got the time to keep track of you all and send out mass punishments all the time? Plenty to do keeping the sun rotating around the earth and making the land fertile, thankyouverymuch. Sheesh!

-Thor

Hey, 12thgenamerican

A carbunkle? HaHa, thats a real knee slapper!

By the way, I'd bet 100 American dollars that Mama Sal helped you pick your web moniker. Please tell het that at least some grounding in academic theology might help this, her last outpost.

Also, grow a pair and change the date of your wedding and make sure you and your dad get to your niece's in California. Trust me, you are going to need the support of your family. That is the weekend Mama Sal should be joining the Sisters of the Visitation on retreat anyhow.

Note to Sisters of the Visitation - plan retreat weekend of April 10

The National Cathedral is no one's "family" church. That is another of Mama Sal's many delusions. Have your own wedding at a venue appropriate to the event and the environment Mama Sal's screeds have created. I know any of the old line social Episcopal churches that good families actually attend may be awkward for Mama Sal. Perhaps in N Street or St. Mary's would be best.

At any rate make that change as soon as possible to give folks Mama Sal will be trying to rope in a chance to make out of town plans.

Good luck 12thgenamerican, we're pulling for you!

Your buddy,

Cecil, 16th Baron of Baltimore

psst, Sally, here's a little secret for you: Most of these clowns claiming to speak God's word are just egomaniacs who use the power of religion to scare and control people. I am personally not a religious person, so none of this really bothers or upsets me as it is clear that the joke is on those who believe a single word coming out of the mouths of the Fallwell's, Robertson's, etc. Having said that, I am almost certain that if Jesus did in fact come back into a modern world (which of course he can't) he'd give these guys a pretty good a$$-kicking for misusing his philosophical teachings.

Yet another edition of "Thank god I'm atheist". Really, that's what I say every time I read stories like the one above.

I wish my christian brothers the best, just please stay off my bedroom.

Well, it only takes so long before the believers eat their own. Christians would like us to believe that their grudge is only with atheists, other secularists and believers in other religions who are frustrating the founding father’s intent for this to be a Christian nation. In today’s thread we have a “Christian” railing against Catholics for not being Christians. Scratch the surface of any fundamentalist and you will expose a mindless zealot. The truth be known, for believers, to be a schismatic Christian is worse than to be a pagan or atheist. The Christian with a different dogma is a heretic. Catholics expelled Jews form Spain in the 15th century but executed Protestants in the 16th; it was a greater sin to claim to be a Christian but follow unofficial dogma than to be a non-believer. This is why we have separation of church and state.

Hopefully Sally, you will begin to realize that not only are these evangelicals an unstable lot, but also believers in all religions! We had nuns tell us that only catholics would be allowed into "heaven." The older I get, the more kooky ALL this stuff appears! Why do otherwise sensible appearing people believe in this poppycock?

By the way, my son died. I guess god was punishing me, according to these nuts!

The AllKnowingGuy makes a good point. How does a practicing Christian differentiate between Jesus as described in the New Testament and God as described in the old? The answer is selective reading.

The only way to reconcile the idea of a loving God with the abomination depicted in the bible is by ignoring vast areas of the bible or by cherry picking those areas that you are inclined to believe. But then that raises questions about the origin of the bible. How can the bible be accepted as truth when so much of it must be discarded or accepted symbolically?

Once you go down that path, you are left with little you can count on. So was the the virgin Mary really a virgin or was she symbolic of innocence? (Or was it really the greatest excuse for getting pregnant out of wedlock in the history of mankind -- God did it)

The use of holy books to define how to live becomes an exercise in selective reading and it's only at the point where one realizes that either it must be taken as a whole as being god inspired or it must be rejected in its entirety.

Now before Spidermania comments that we just don't get it, I'd like to preempt his comments with the following: If the holy spirit is what enables us to understand the bible, why did it have to be translated? Why couldn't the holy spirit have allowed it to be written in any language and it (the holy spirit) would translate it for us? Why did common people have to wait for Luther to translate it into Germen?

How about it Spidey -- care to take a crack at reading an original version and letting the holy spirit translate for you?

One must remember that the only requirement for most evangelical preachers is to "feel the calling". This means that anyone who chooses to do so may take the pulpit, wtih no educational requirement whatsoever. This is reminiscent of those imams educated in the madrassahs in which they spend time on only memorizing the Koran.

Fishcrow wondered: Christ was innocent yet he was humiliated, tortured and executed, and you're okay with that but not the afflictions of mankind?____________________________________

It is impossible to do anything to an omnipotent entity unless it allows the thing be done.

""to not allow a soul to live past the womb is a crime against humanity..."

That happens quite often, even before a woman suspects she could possibly be pregnant. Is that soul-recycling on the part of God/god/gods? It's incorrectly termed "miscarriage". In medical parlance it's a "spontaneous abortion".

Spontaneous abortion: A miscarriage, that is, any pregnancy that is not viable (the fetus cannot survive) or in which the fetus is born before the 20th week of pregnancy. Spontaneous abortion occurs in at least 15-20% of all recognized pregnancies and usually takes place before the 13th week of pregnancy.

Embryologists estimate that the rate of natural loss for embryos that have developed for seven days or more is 60 percent. The total rate of natural loss of human embryos increases to at least 80 percent if one counts from the moment of conception. About half of the embryos lost are abnormal, but half are not, and had they implanted they would probably have developed into healthy babies. So millions of viable human embryos each year produced via normal conception fail to implant and never develop further.

He said "Because when you abort the first born of any, nature takes it's vengeance on the subsequent children."

Hey, maybe I'm going blind in my old age, but I thought I read that he said "NATURE" takes its vengence ....

That kind of sounds secularisticly, pantheonisticly, Avatar-ish to me. Are you sure your railing your hatred, spewing your venom in the right direction ?

Regardless, it is clear that you dont have much knowlege of Christianity ! You say "I thought Christians were good " ... when the Bible clearly teaches ( and this is foundational ) that no one is good, "no, not one" no one is innocent, we are all liars, thieves, blasphemous, covetous (i.e. sinful )... Christians arent "GOOD" we are bad just like everyone else, but we are forgiven by a Good God.

You said "I thought God was supposed to be all-loving". Wrong again ! Gods predominant attribute is Holiness. Under the umbrella of Holiness are Justice, Goodness, Mercy, Love, and Wrath, among others.

You said " I thought Jesus preached peace and unconditional love and died for all our sins." Wrong and wrong (again )

Not unconditional, it is conditional, the condition of which is repentance, turning from your sins, and believing, trusting, loving and having faith in him.

"died for all our sins" - nope, He died as a payment ( a legal transaction ) for "all" of the sins for "all" of the those who repent and believe. No repentance, no faith, no forgiveness.

"Does God ask for Jesus' advice before He takes vengeance on the innocent as well as the guilty?" This is wrong on so many levels...as already explained, there are no "innocent" ( we are all guilty of breaking his moreal laws ) and God doesnt ask Jesus' advice because Jesus IS God. God is triune : One God -->> three persons.

I guess it makes sense. Someone who really doesnt understand even the basics of something is apt to come to wrong conclusions.

Imagine a guilty criminal, who just stood trial for murdering and raping 10 women, standing before the judge who just sentenced him to life in prison without parol, and saying to that judge " why are you punishing my children ? now they wont have a father, thats not fair" It may not be fair in his eyes, but it is the consequence of his actions.

To those who think that the puniment "makes sense to me" I hope you rot in he!!. As a woman who had a D&C from a pregnancy that did not make it, I find all of you offensive. The operation is the same as an abortion (and when you get the approval to have it from your healthcare provider, it does say abortion in the procedure's name).

What he said is that the procedure weakens a woman's cervix so subsequent pregnancies can end up handicaped (essentially). So, by losing a pregnancy, that I wanted so much, I deserve to have a handicapped child? This is God's wrath on me?

Christ was innocent yet he was humiliated, tortured and executed, and you're okay with that but not the afflictions of mankind?

Sally - you can't use His redemptive sacrifice in your argument unless you except the whole deal.

Grow up.

Sad, truly, that religious zealotry can get so wrapped up in personal antipathies, and fiery politics.

But Christians, as well as Muslims, can easily find justification for a vengeful God in their readings of the Bible (particularly the Old Testament) and the Koran. That these few choose the mean side in their religious understandings, over the compassionate and noble teachings of their holy books, tells a lot about who they really are.

God knitted us and he is perfectly free to kill, torture or reward his sock puppets for his divine amusement.

If you find his capricious whims immoral then ask yourself this: Is my understanding of morality superior to the entity that created me?

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Lets get it strait , people who believe in God are weak and mentally ill, no proof. If their is a God he punishes us by putting usless evil Republicans in office.

Has anyone read the study that this guy was citing?
http://jech.bmj.com/content/62/1/16.abstract
The study found that previous abortions increased the rate of low birth weight and stillbirth, and multiple abortions increased it more. (No mention of disability, by the way.) Stillbirths, though, still remain very rare. (The increased risk, by the way, is about the same as that for women who are 20 pound overweight before pregnancy.)

So God punishes women who have abortions by increasing the likelihood of some very unlikely events, so that most of the people He's punishing are still unaffected.

Makes sense to me....

How about how you are punishing your son by washing the family linen in public?

people who say that god is punishing us are crazy scary people. they are just like terrorists. they take religion way too seriously

Maybe this will help explain why God hates or punishes the children of people who don't OBEY the Christian leaders of today...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNy6ziOyxoA&feature=PlayList&p=D530ADE80B475DC2&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=4

Seems we have a few Christians that are misinformed.

I'm confused, Mr. Marshall. I thought Christians were good, kind caring people. I thought God was supposed to be all-loving. I thought Jesus preached peace and unconditional love and died for all our sins. Does God ask for Jesus' advice before He takes vengeance on the innocent as well as the guilty?
_____________________

I don't know what G-d does personally. nobody does. What I do know is that you know very little about Christians, Jesus, God, Bible and the like....maybe you should benefit from studying the matter more deeply rather than just buy the lazy version portrayed in the media, otherwise you may be popular ( or populist??) but that approach surely betrays your vast ignorance!

Until people who claim God sends natural disasters in response to immoral acts can explain why Treblinka wasn't destroyed by lightning, I have no interest in their opinions.
Posted by: WmarkW

Well said.

Isn't it about time mankind puts away its childish belief in a god who sits around keeping track of whatever humans do, like a celestial accountant with a mean streak a mile wide? We encourage children to give up believing in the Tooth Fairy or Santa...
Epicurus said:
1. if God is unable to prevent evil, he is not omnipotent
2. if God is not willing to prevent evil, he is not good
3. if God is willing and able to prevent evil, then why is there evil?

Apparently. And I'd like to have a few words with him, her or whatever, about that...

When William Barclay’s daughter drowned years ago, Dr. Barclay received this cold response from a pastor no less, “Now, you see the judgment of God upon your liberal theology.” Wisely, Barclay challenged this craziness by writing back, “My dear misguided brother, your God is my devil.”

Mr. Marshall, Mr. Robertson, and Mr. Falwell, your god is my devil.

Until people who claim God sends natural disasters in response to immoral acts can explain why Treblinka wasn't destroyed by lightning, I have no interest in their opinions.

God the Punisher is at it again. First he punished America (children and all) on 9/11 because of its tolerance for pagans, feminists, gays and lesbians. Then he punished children and other people of New Orleans with Hurricane Katrina because of "sexual perversion." Then he punished children and others in Haiti with an earthquake because too many Haitians practice that evil voodoo. Now He has to go and punish the first-born children of all women who have had abortions.

I have to say I think this is pretty mean of God.

ALL TRUE. He is a VENGEFUL GOD. "by no means will He give exemption from punishment.” (Exodus 34:6, 7)

I wonder if the writer of this article or any of the commenter’s (Including the person who supposedly made the comments that inspired this article) have really searched their hearts and asked GOD what he really thinks about this Messy Issue !!!

As for the article and It’s writer I see NO Divine Inspiration just someone trying to stir the pot or is it a cauldron of hate !!!

God doesnt "do" anything cause he doesnt exist.

Well, abortion does kind of "punish children" to the tune of 1,500,000 "murders" per year. In fact, abortion is the leading cause of death in America, outstripping heart disease and cancer combined.

God doesn't do this, women do. Something to think about the next time the go on a Million Mom March taking nonsense about "being for the children" when they are really for "killing the children before they are born."

Religion is a social construct that exists because people want answers to questions for which there are (or at one time were) no answers. Extend this to providing answers to questions nobody asked and you've got ultra-conservative evangelicals announcing why God saw fit to permit the 9/11 attacks, Katrina, and the earthquake in Haiti. In the absence of God there is no sentient causation. There is simply nature doing what nature does. A merciful God would have sunk every slave ship and sent a tornado through every Nazi death camp. Where was God then?

Wow, the lefties and righties are out in force this evening!!!!

So let us get to some reality. As noted previously by other bloggers:

"Christians must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God the great scapegoat of history" .

"Nothing is determined in advance: in
nature there is chance and determinism; in the world of human activity there is possibility of free choices. Therefore the historical future is not known even to God; otherwise we and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."

From Schillebeeckx's book, Church: The Human Story of God,
Crossroad, 1993, p.91 (paperback)

Of course, Schillebeeck assumed there is a god out there somewhere. But where?

I don't know what kind of snake-handling sect you belong to, but I'm sure it does not give you any authority to make any judgment at all about other religions.
It doesn't matter anyway, since it is all in your silly heads, borne of emotion, nurtured by ignorance, sustained by fear.
Religion is what we tell ourselves, and each other, when we can't face the reality of our nothingness. You are all arguing and killing each other, and us, too, over differences in mental images and your emotional addiction to things imagined.
When we live our lives as if those emotional constructs, those little props we use, those tiny lies we tell ourselves constantly are true, we are mentally ill.
It is truly terrifying for rational folk to see how the world has become infected with this disease of religion.
It will kill us.
POSTED BY: GKAM | FEBRUARY 24, 2010 10:16 PM
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LOL and yet God has been around since man??? Every culture through our entire recorded time??? Over 2000 years and we’re still here??? Religion may kill some but more than likely stup1dity will kill you. This person may be the stup1dest person God ever created. LOL or not???

Gkam,

Your ignorance of the Bible does not permit you to make opinions about true Christianity.

Catholicism is NOT Christianity and the Bible can prove it.

The title "Holy Father" is reserved only to God. It is blasphemous to call a person as "Holy Father".

God has no mother. Even Jesus said in disgust, "Who is my mother?"

Only God can make saints. People who are born again are saints. No church or pope has the power to declare a person to be a saint. It's blasphemous.

The list goes on, and if you were raised a Catholic, it's not a wonder why you turned into an atheist.

In the Parable of Talents, it's ironic that the one who hid his talent and didn't produce was the one accusing God of ill will.

Isn't it possible that the atheists who continually blame God could be the same people God was referring to?

The parable stated that the bad servant was bound and thrown into hell. That should worry the atheists.

Ms. Sally Quinn writes:
Their God is a vengeful God who preys on innocent men, women and children to punish the wicked.

No one is innocent as we have all sinned against the Lord. How God judges today is not something that I know. Yet blaming God for evil or bad is wrong.

"Whatever is good and perfect comes to us from God above, who created all heaven's lights...In his goodness he chose to make us his own children by giving us his true word." (James 1:17)
God loves everyone. He loved us so much that He sent us His only Son to pay for the sins that we have committed. We have free will to accept Him or reject Him today. In the future we will all (every person that has ever lived or will ever live) stand before Him.
"For there is going to come a day of judgment when God, the just judge of all the world, will judge all people according to what they have done." (Romans 2:5&6)
He is the perfect judge. I would never say that He is vengeful because His judgement will be just and perfect.
POSTED BY: RLHOLLOWAY | FEBRUARY 24, 2010 10:46 PM
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You must have read the Disney version of the bible. Read the real bible or perhaps the WHOLE BIBLE Start with the old testament.

Can we not grow past this silly infantile need to continue to believe in santa...err "God" into our adulthood?
I guess most kids have a reasonable adult to tell them the truth about "Santa". Most adults do not.

Once again, the radical anti-choicers are first out of the gate and miss the point entirely.
The point was not for or against abortion. The point was to criticize this idiot legislator from Manassas because he made a patently offensive statement that has no grounding in reality. In reality, having a previous abortion has no bearing on whether a later child is disabled or not. He managed to insult mothers of disabled children by blaming them for their children's problems. I wonder if Sister Sarah Palin, who obviously has not had an abortion, but has a child with Downs Syndrome, will come out and smack this guy down as hard as she did Rahm Emmanuel? I doubt it. It's okay to be offensive if you're a Republican.
POSTED BY: ATHENA4 | FEBRUARY 24, 2010 5:13 PM
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LOL actually I think it’s you who missed the point. If you had any idea what you we’re talking about you would have realized that according to the bible he’s correct. God is not that merciful but is vengeful if you read the bible you would know this. But then again most of these religious people (Quinn) don’t get that either. Read the old testament. I’m not religious but read both versions. I doubt he’s expressing his personal feelings they are talking about the subject from Gods view point. According to the bible (The word of God) then yes anyone breaking his laws would be punished. No different than people who violate mans laws. Of course failed reporters working for the barley breathing WaPo pass along opinions not news. Opinions and rumors. How pathetic Quinn has become.

Ms. Sally Quinn writes:

Their God is a vengeful God who preys on innocent men, women and children to punish the wicked.

No one is innocent as we have all sinned against the Lord. How God judges today is not something that I know. Yet blaming God for evil or bad is wrong.

"Whatever is good and perfect comes to us from God above, who created all heaven's lights...In his goodness he chose to make us his own children by giving us his true word." (James 1:17)

God loves everyone. He loved us so much that He sent us His only Son to pay for the sins that we have committed. We have free will to accept Him or reject Him today. In the future we will all (every person that has ever lived or will ever live) stand before Him.

"For there is going to come a day of judgment when God, the just judge of all the world, will judge all people according to what they have done." (Romans 2:5&6)

He is the perfect judge. I would never say that He is vengeful because His judgement will be just and perfect.

I don't know the circumstances beyond what I see here, but Marshall did not mention God in the quote in this story. He mentioned "Nature" taking "its" vengeance, not "God" taking "His" vengeance. Maybe I'm just being pedantic.

But this quote really surprises me: "Their God is a vengeful God who preys on innocent men, women and children to punish the wicked." Surely you jest, Ms. Quinn. The God of the Old Testament does exactly that, in spades. What is the point of the Flood, but to murder everyone, including babies and animals, and start over? Surely not everyone on Earth was wicked. Have Christians become so ignorant of their own faith that they don't even know the basics anymore about the god they purport to worship?

As one said: "Catholicism is NOT Christianity."
--------------------------------------------------------------

I don't know what kind of snake-handling sect you belong to, but I'm sure it does not give you any authority to make any judgment at all about other religions.

It doesn't matter anyway, since it is all in your silly heads, borne of emotion, nurtured by ignorance, sustained by fear.

Religion is what we tell ourselves, and each other, when we can't face the reality of our nothingness. You are all arguing and killing each other, and us, too, over differences in mental images and your emotional addiction to things imagined.

When we live our lives as if those emotional constructs, those little props we use, those tiny lies we tell ourselves constantly are true, we are mentally ill.

It is truly terrifying for rational folk to see how the world has become infected with this disease of religion.

It will kill us.

Catholicism is NOT Christianity. In other words, Bob Marshall is not a Christian. It's not fair to blame true Christians for the act of non-Christians.

Ypu know I posted in the paper back when McDonell ran and (as an Illinoisan and knowing something about crappy governors) I said that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it likely is a duck. Well Virginia lookie what you got! A fire and brimstone right winger whose gonna bend you all over. Look at that idiot Marshall and his nonsensical blathering. Did the Gov also eliminate civil rights protection for state workers who just might happento be gay? Didn't he say he wasn't going to do that? Guess what! Now you have your own sort of Blagojevich. Enjoy.

DwightCollins,

"you can parse it all you want..."

Thank you.

"but truth is..."

Yes?

"you can't justify murder..."

Do you know what "murder" means?

"no matter what label you put on it..."

Indeed.

Preaching is part of any Christians work. Stupidity is self-destructive and it is the work of every Christian preacher to voice out what are stupid acts. And since people are deft, more troubles are coming. God is not vengeful, it's the people who are dumb.

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Cor. 6:9-11)

12THGENAMERICAN, I have read the New Testament. And the Old. A lot of words are attributed to Jesus, but he was pretty unequivocal, and rather repetitive, about compassion, humility, and leaving the judging to God! A careful reading of the Old Testament also might tell you to leave the judging to God, but Jesus leaves no room for doubt. Which is why I just don't get it when so-called "Christians" choose to ignore most of Christ's message.

I seem to remember "Judge not lest ye yourself be judged," and "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." I must have missed the bit where He said, "Yes, Mr. Falwell, Mr. Robertson, I appoint YOU and your sinless, perfect comrades and followers to do the judging because God's busy just now, and the Spanish Inquisition's out of business. Oh, and that stuff about God being merciful, loving, and forgiving? Just kidding. He actually gets a huge kick out of punishing people you don't like, so off you go."

"DwightCollins,
"I am against abortion because it is a crime against GOD..."

Then by all means, you should never have an abortion; and most governments protect you against having a forced abortion.

"And GOD gave man free will..."

So I'm sure that you would not even think about taking away anyone's god-given free will by attempting to make abortion illegal.

"so it anyone pays for it...
it's the people that participate in the crime..."

Are you saying that you agree with Bob Marshall? Did Sarah Palin participate in the crime?

"to not allow a soul to live past the womb is a crime against humanity..."

Are you saying that embryos and fetuses are souls? What exactly is a soul?

Posted by: PSolus | February 24, 2010 5:44 PM
Report Offensive Comment "

you can parse it all you want...
but truth is...
you can't justify murder...
no matter what label you put on it...

Sally,,

thanks for this great and clear column. Their god is not the God nor the Jesus that I grew up learning about and from. Mine is not a vengenful God. But, this is not about God or Jesus, this is about control and subjugation of people. If you can create an enemy,, and you get God to punish them, it demonstrates their unholiness and gives people the right to castigate, disenfranchise, discriminate, and yes, even kill, harm or mame these unholy people and feel rightgeous about it. How many wars or crimes have been commmitted in the name of someone's God? These men are evil and the real anti-christ for twisting the message of God and Jesus to manipulate, control, discriminate and subjugate people that are not like them, that have opinions other than them, that don't look like them, and whom they relish seeing treated in less than Christian ways. They are EVIL and the Anti-Christ. Racists, bigots and hypocritics all. Just remember, that Jesse Helms and his ilk, wrapped themselved in the American Flag and carried and quoted the Bible while hundreds or blacks were killed in the south and when Gays were lynched, beaten up or run out of town,,,,

If there was a god, which there isn't, but if there was, what a sick, twisted, sadistic monster it would be.

Thank goodness Bob Marshall is not Virginia's attorney general...... wait a minute, Ken Cuccinelli is.

It's going to be a long four years.

sally......

how be your families' wacky conflicted wedding arrangements?

please help me make mine just like yours are!

Well God did say Satan would be in the churches and we have seen our Christian Law Makers say one thing and do another. We've watched Pasters use God's name for money and greed. We've seen men, Law Makers and Priest molest kids and rape woman. All this is done in the name of their God aka Satan. With the racism/hate/evil the US had done why would anyone expect good things from God. We allowed our Law Makers to kidnap innocent men/woman/children and even torture/rape/murder them as we watched 1 million Iraq people murdered in their beds as the US illegally invaded Iraq. Yes 7 bombs hit their target but 56 bombs mistakenly killed innocent people. Lies, crimes, stealing and so much more has happen and God is watching.

Mr. Marshall's clarification of "nature's consequences" dug him further into his den.
Did the New England Journal of Medicine publish the results of a study linking prior abortion with birth defects? Where is it? All of Mr. Marshall's comments and his mentality is insensitive, lacking in compassion, hateful etc. He explained his comments last week by saying a woman "does this to herself" because of prior abortions. Even if I do find that article in NEJM and mounds of more evidence linking prior abortions and birth defects, how awful to say a woman did it to herself. She's trying to raise a disabled child. It's like telling someone dying of terminal lung cancer who smoked,"well, you did it to yourself." We have four children, one with autism and my youngest with Downs. Our youngest was diagnosed at 12 weeks gestation. There are those who think it's unethical to bring a disabled child into the world. We let our consciences be our guide. I am not a Repulican right winger, never have voted for one, but we are prolife. I think prolife means getting to the mom first, and helping her make the right decision. Who am I to judge? That's reserved for the Almighty. I have never had an abortion, and we feel our children with special needs are gifts. They have taught me and helped me be a stronger more secure person. I look for supportive, encouraging people along the way. I have learned to ignore the ignorance and stupidity of Bob Marshall and his ilke, they're no help at all, in fact they make raising a child with a disability that much more difficult. But he's an elected official doing damage with his thinking. I think he might be suffering from some sort of disorder or dementia. My father just passed away from dementia and at the beginning he said and did some off the wall, even mean things. He might consider getting checked out. How is judging and criticizing a woman for anything in her past pro anyone's life, the mother or the child's, for whom she now has the responsibility of raising?

socali, could be a carbunkle. haha

philosphe, i suggest you read romans 1. and Jesus accepted the old testament as Gods word.

As far as I can tell, Marshall, Falwell, Robertson, and the like got through the Old Testament but kinda missed the New one. How anyone could read the words attributed to the Jesus in whose name they claim to pray, then make these horrible statements, is beyond comprehension.

As for Marshall himself, there is only one proper response: "Well, my goodness, sir, based on your statements, your mother must have had a LOT of abortions before she got around to you."

Conservative politicians say their comments are miscontrued when they realize their hate has gone over the line and may cost them at the next election. Saying his comments were miscontrued is kind of like him saying "if" I offended then I'm sorry. No apology -- just concern that his hate will cost him an election. He is a sorry example of what conservativism has become.

God the Punisher of Children? Is this some twisted way to allay concerns that Velocardiofacial Syndrome may be related to Fetal Alcohol Syndrome or Syphillis?
Quinn is nothing if not quirky.

Good Gawd, rumors are swirling all over Washington that the Post is about to bring our long national nightmare to an end and low and behold here she pops up again.
Would someone please just lance this boil and get it over with? It is not just her column on partying that is objectionable it is everything she represents.

Evolved (as in became educated, became proficient, practiced a craft) vs. created (slept with the old man) indeed!

I guess a misscarage is an abortion performed by GOD!

I guess a misscarage counts as abortion also?

"I'm confused, Mr. Marshall. I thought Christians were good, kind caring people."

We're supposed to be--we are taught to be--but sadly, some Christians make a mockery of Christ's teachings which can be boiled down to the commandments--Love God, and Love each other. "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

"I thought God was supposed to be all-loving. I thought Jesus preached peace and unconditional love and died for all our sins."

Yes, God is all-loving. And Jesus did preach these things. It's hard to understand why people who claim to act in His name, say and do so many things so contrary to the love that He preached, over and over. You have every right to be confused and I think what Marshall said is despicable and completely against everything for which Jesus stands. Regardless of your stance on abortion (and I, as a Christian, am 100% pro-choice), it is ludicrous to suggest birth defects are a punishment visited upon innocent children because of what the parents did. What a cruel, insensitive, unChristian thing to say. God loves all His children and would never punish the innocent.

Sally,,

thanks for this great and clear column. Their god is not the God nor the Jesus that I grew up learning about and from. Mine is not a vengenful God. But, this is not about God or Jesus, this is about control and subjugation of people. If you can create an enemy,, and you get God to punish them, it demonstrates their unholiness and gives people the right to castigate, disenfranchise, discriminate, and yes, even kill, harm or mame these unholy people and feel rightgeous about it. How many wars or crimes have been commmitted in the name of someone's God? These men are evil and the real anti-christ for twisting the message of God and Jesus to manipulate, control, discriminate and subjugate people that are not like them, that have opinions other than them, that don't look like them, and whom they relish seeing treated in less than Christian ways. They are EVIL and the Anti-Christ. Racists, bigots and hypocritics all. Just remember, that Jesse Helms and his ilk, wrapped themselved in the American Flag and carried and quoted the Bible while hundreds or blacks were killed in the south and when Gays were lynched, beaten up or run out of town,,,,

I am so sick and tire of these racketeering Priests of ignorant and superstition preying on those least able people looking for any hope they can in these increasingly dark times! Like the so-called economic "consultants" offering to help reduce credit card bills; most if not all of these Priests steal the well-being and limited resources of their flocks; prattle nonsense of hatred and intolerance, lead lives of bigoted excess on their extorted "contributions", and are essentially worthless human beings as parasites on the weak and the ignorant. They must be stopped and removed from the family of man!

The battle lines have been drawn for a 1000 year world war...the "evolved" against the "created"...logic and reason versus 12th century mysticism...nice time to be born, huh?

DwightCollins,

"I am against abortion because it is a crime against GOD..."

Then by all means, you should never have an abortion; and most governments protect you against having a forced abortion.

"And GOD gave man free will..."

So I'm sure that you would not even think about taking away anyone's god-given free will by attempting to make abortion illegal.

"so it anyone pays for it...
it's the people that participate in the crime..."

Are you saying that you agree with Bob Marshall? Did Sarah Palin participate in the crime?

"to not allow a soul to live past the womb is a crime against humanity..."

Are you saying that embryos and fetuses are souls? What exactly is a soul?

"to not allow a soul to live past the womb is a crime against humanity...?

So, the fact that a woman has an abortion is the reason "God" "punishes" the next born by making it disabled? This is not a "just" god. It is a statement of a vengeful person who cannot stand the idea that someone else may have a different belief than he does. So if the same "god" is the "God of Abraham, Isaac and Joseph" and the "God" of Christianity and the "Allah" of Islam, why do all of these "children" of the same "God" hate each other? Does no one think anymore? Or do we all just spout whatever we were "taught" by those who passed before us, spewing nonsense and calling it "truth."

Once again, the radical anti-choicers are first out of the gate and miss the point entirely.

The point was not for or against abortion. The point was to criticize this idiot legislator from Manassas because he made a patently offensive statement that has no grounding in reality. In reality, having a previous abortion has no bearing on whether a later child is disabled or not. He managed to insult mothers of disabled children by blaming them for their children's problems. I wonder if Sister Sarah Palin, who obviously has not had an abortion, but has a child with Downs Syndrome, will come out and smack this guy down as hard as she did Rahm Emmanuel? I doubt it. It's okay to be offensive if you're a Republican.

I am against abortion because it is a crime against GOD...
And GOD gave man free will...
so it anyone pays for it...
it's the people that participate in the crime...
to not allow a soul to live past the womb is a crime against humanity...