Confucius and the 'Tiger mom:' Is Chua's home "a school of compassion"?

I am a 10th generation American married to a Chinese man and most of my neighbors are Chinese here in my small town in the South. I have seen the downside of the Tiger mom mentality. The emotional toll on their children manifests itself in animal abuse, inveterate lying, tricky behavior and rudeness toward "the competition." Chinese culture pooh poohs getting therapy even for budding sociopaths (must save face at all costs). I could tell you stories, but most American parents wouldn't believe it and couldn't stomach it.

I am a 10th generation American married to a Chinese man and most of my neighbors are Chinese here in my small town in the South. I have seen the downside of the Tiger mom mentality. The emotional toll on their children manifests itself in animal abuse, inveterate lying, tricky behavior and rudeness toward "the competition." Chinese culture pooh poohs getting therapy even for budding sociopaths (must save face at all costs). I could tell you stories, but most American parents wouldn't believe it and couldn't stomach it.

It's easy to target a concept like "compassionate life" in Confucianism and call child-rearing traditions like Chua's wrong. But wasn't it Confucianism that ushered in the concept of meritocracy, the idea that hard work can reap what previously required being born into a privileged class?

About the "garbage" comment: Ms. Chua is being brutally honest about her mistakes, and not trying to sugar-coat the dark side of what she was trying to accomplish. Her daughters do have friends, okay? Every parent says and does some wretched things, sometimes even unforgivable things. Evolution is doing fewer of those things to our kids than our parents did to us. People just don't tend to include those wretched incidents in their memoirs, and Chua's book is an unsparing look at the particulars of a child-rearing method westerners rarely see up close. Is there nothing she writes about that a western parent can use? My kids are grown. With a Chinese mother, they could have aced Harvard, but instead they had me. They are both fine, well centered people, doing work they like. But with all we know now about how learning a musical instrument helps the brain to develop, I wonder what would have happened if I'd seen both of my kids over the hump, overridden their preferences and kept them at it until they'd developed some real mastery, before letting them stop music lessons and foreign language classes. Or, frankly, if my parents had done that with me. I think it's good to consider that most of us never know what we're capable of untill prodded into doing more than we thought we were capable of. In some ways, we probably are selling our children short.

Like Chua has said in interview after interview, the best approach is probably a hybrid: she went too far, as her daughters let her know, but they are smart and accomplished, and they have many options now as to how they can use their hard-won skills. I expect they will do somewhat fewer wretched things to their own children, come the day. Without inhaling "the Chinese way" wholesale, there are positive lessons we can take from how those girls got where they are.

Oooopss. Me Best To a WARM-HEART.

L E P I D O P T E R Y X:

Interesthing. 2-Parts:

1: MUSIC makes Potential Adults Smart(r). As mention below; me twin Sisstar "M", who pushed herself without our parents intervention but was Passive-Listener's, would play (and Sing) the Upright Steinway Piano veryvery hard after the Visiting Music Teacher, Mr. Graneesii {pbuh}, who had a crush on me Mom, would go over the next room, to push me on the Accordion of which me parents brought from Israel and France before White Russia before that. But

i Dropped (Lessons) after 9 months. Yet me still remembers "do ri me fa so la ti do.. And remember F-A-C-E & E-G-B-D-F. I was more interested in the BEETLES, DOORS, LED ZEPPELIN et al. I Got Tired of listening To "Oliver", "Gone With The Wind", "Fiddler On The Roof" "Dr. Zhivago" "West Side Story" "Those Were The Days.." But but I'm still stuck with Doris Day's "Que Sera Sera". Me, as most People. Loved Dancing {Free Style}. Actually, I loved listening (At Clubs when they 1st started) to "SISTER SLEDGE"s WE-ARE-FAMILY..."

Secret (opposite Revealation) "MUSIC" {Via the Holyi ViBRATIONALS} is how WE, YE YO ALL Gots Here!
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2: i [WE] though of Ye Yo's the Other day when i's came across this Article from N.Y.T. about "Blue Butterfly's That Migrated From Asia To South America Via the Alaska & Siberia thousands of Years Ago. Please See:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/01/science/01butterfly.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

EXCERPT: Entitled; Nonfiction: Nabokov Theory on Butterfly Evolution Is Vindicated; Vladimir Nabokov may be known to most people as the author of classic novels like “Lolita” and “Pale Fire.” But even as he was writing those books, Nabokov had a parallel existence as a self-taught expert on butterflies.

They Say That When a Butterfly Flaps its wings that the Whole Universe Vibrates [Similar].

Nice Nice Very Nice!

Susan Forward's "Toxic Parents" was published in 2002 -- not exactly a "recent" book, as Sally claims. In fact, given publishing lag time back then, the material is more than 10 years old.

What is interesting to me about the whole Tiger Mother debate is that Americans are so upset by Ms. Chua's challenge.

Ms. Chua has clearly adopted a parenting style which is the polar opposite of most Americans. Apparently this style is fairly common in Asia.

Therefore, the question would seem to be, do kids raised by parents like Ms. Chua turn out, on average, as better or worse citizens, happier or unhappier, more or less successful, than American kids?

No one seems to be interested in seriously discussing this question. Instead, the overwhelming reaction seems to be instantly judgmental, with most commenters determined to heap rage and scorn on Ms. Chua.

There's a lot of defensiveness in people's reaction to Ms. Chua.

For myself, I'm fascinated. Like one of the other commenters on this post, I've raised a son who is severely learning disabled. I was somewhat of a Chinese mother toward him, pushed him hard, sometimes beyond his capacities. He has turned out well: he is working part time, about to finish his two year community college vocational course with a B average, every reason to think he will find full time employment on graduation. He is EXTREMELY proud of his achievements, partly because I emphasized that achievement is importand and partly because so many people said he couldn't do it, including even one professor who tried to force him to drop out of community college because he was too "disabled" to handle the course work. Ha! We are planning the graduation party right now, so there.

Where would he be if I hadn't pushed him to achieve? Consigned to the special ed ghetto and permanently labelled as not capable of succeeding in competition with "normal" kids? So many kids in our community who went that route have ended up as unemployable social dropouts with legal and drug problems.

Sometimes pressure is good for kids. Maybe not Ms. Chua's level of pressure. But sometimes it is more important to help a child attain measurable documented skills, measurable documented achievement than it is to emphasize "self esteem" and "creativity." Looking back, I know there are times when I slapped him or yelled at him when he really wasn't able to do what I was demanding of him. But if I had been gentle, where would he be now?

StJuste: You have some good points. The Chinese in this country have never felt that comfortable with the Western society with its institutions. There are some traditions, that the Chinese, Asians bring to the table are benefitial to this society in the 21 century: such as long term strategic planning and discipline(Mitchel Ree for instance). You would not hire any of the leaders of China to be a US politician, but they would be excellent behind the scene executives/managers/planners.

I didn't make my daughter do her homework. Doing or not doing her homework, and the consequences thereof, were on her. If she did it, she got credit for it at school the next day. If not, she got a 0. The only time I had anything to do with her homework was if she asked me for help with it, in which case, I was always avaialble.
She made the honor roll taking AP courses in the gifted and talented program.
She's now a 20-year-old college student with a 4.) GPA, living on her own, and working two jobs.

When she wanted piano lessons, I paid for them, but did not make her practice. She practiced when she felt like it. Some days, that was several hours, some days a few minutes, some days not at all. Music was something that she did for her own pleasure, and I wanted it to remain so, not become one more thing on her list of "damn things I have to do today."

Competition in the Chinese culture is not unsimilar to the Jewish culture. The modern Chinese has made a point of learning from the rest of the world(probablly untraditional). Look at China's stage performances, Expo. etc. They performed an American Indian theme and Tango, plus the ethnic minorities dances/songs for the New Years. Though US has a lot of diversity,how much does one go out trying to talk to the Mexicans, Koreans,etc. China is catching up as in everything else. The Chinese culture is a culture of the heart, not a doctrinare culture. It allows the mix-match, ying/yang integration of different doctrines. Both sides are right to a degree. One does not have to be right and the other one wrong.

WHERE ARE THE CHINESE-AMERICANS?

Though it's common wisdom that Asian and Chinese Americans excel in education, turn on the TV. Plenty of blacks, idem for Jews, plenty of Irish or Italian. Turn on the news, Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi, Jesse Jackson, Eric Cantor, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reily, Chris Matthews. Check out the politicians, academics etc. So where are the hard working Chinese students graduates of Harvard, UC Berkley and Stanford? Sunk in mid-level jobs through enduring prejudice, I suspect.

And the reason? Unlike other groups, whites had the advantage of blending in and organizing their own institutions -- Catholic schools, B'Nai Brith, Kof C - - and blacks organized and fought for their rights, the Chinese believed in individual effort. They have foregone group solidarity and out of a counterproductive pride and modesty refused to lobby for their rights. Many vote regularly for Republicans, not particularly a party which supports diversity and minority rights, and one which disdains them -- the examples are numerous but let's begin with Rush Limbaugh's mocking of Hu Jintao, hardly an isolated incident.

I feel sorry for our Chinese brethren and urge them to join many of us in not letting capitalism make a mockery of its weak and divided members.

I've seen the damage done to kids by this kind of parenting. A high schooler who attempts suicide because she can't live up to the ideal. A talented young man petrified of telling his parents he wants to go to Williams, not an Ivy League school. Athletes so driven by tiger-mom that they refuse to take the coach's advice to pace themselves, running slower for the whole race time and time again because of it.
We are more than just our test scores, college acceptances and professions. The most precious things in life are not won through competition. You can push your kids to be the best people they can be with warmth and compassion. Support will always generate better long-term results than guilt and holding back affection.

Thank you Sally Quinn for not suggesting that Amy Chua represents Chinese culture in its entirety or all Chinese parents. Generally speaking, there are some differences, based a lot on different personal histories and peer pressures. For example, a first-generation Chinese-American parent would find it extremely difficult to justify his or her child skipping college in order to spend time in a rock band, whereas a (white) American parent might say, "I want my child to be happy, and he/she is really good!" On the flip side, many traditional American parents are tolerant of youth sports regimens (schedules, physical exertion, coaches' abusive language) that Chinese-American parents may find a little excessive. My own Chinese-American parents believed in hard work, honesty, respect, and also common sense and doing things "in moderation." I think they would be horrified by some of the things that have come out of Chua's book. When it comes to GOOD parenting, no one whom I know, of any ethnic background, fits a stereotype, let alone a caricature like Amy Chua.

This woman is a nasty child abuser. Her husband is a complicit wimp in the whole sordid mess. There's nothing decent about what she's done, nothing good, and frankly it's disgusting to see the contortions people go through to try to make this ok.

If I saw her pull some of the things she's so proud of doing I wouldn't call the cops, I'd beat the crap out of her and let someone else call the cops because I was beating her to a bloody pulp.

Her child called her a devil, and is obviously far more in touch with how evil she is than a lot of you clueless fools.

Competition in the Chinese culture is not unsimilar to the Jewish culture. The modern Chinese has made a point of learning from the rest of the world(probablly untraditional). Look at China's stage performances, Expo. etc. They performed an American Indian theme and Tango, plus the ethnic minorities dances/songs for the New Years. Though US has a lot of diversity,how much does one go out trying to talk to the Mexicans, Koreans,etc. China is catching up as in everything else. The Chinese culture is a culture of the heart, not a doctrinare culture. It allows the mix-match, ying/yang integration of different doctrines. Both sides are right to a degree. One does not have to be right and the other one wrong.

I am not a parent. I do not have experience raising children. What I will say though stems from my own childhood...bi-cultural...bi-lingual. My mom is German, my father American...there was lots of love and family closeness / activity growing up but there was also a learned work ethic and discipline in the household. My siblings and I were taught to help each other and to look out for each other...we were taught to pitch in and help out with things that needed to be done. We were taught to respect others and be considerate of others...be considerate of those less fortunate.

I can understand the differences in parenting / home traditions...when stepping outside of the typical American framework. I can understand - up to a point - the Tiger mother approach in discipline and practice, practice, practice. My own mother hovered over my homework and math problems to make sure that I not only solved the problems correctly but that I wrote my answers neatly and in straight lines. Turning in half baked sloppy homework was disrespectful to the teacher and to oneself and family.

So what do we have today...with all the snotty disrespectful children running amok in grocery stores? We now have shows like Suppernanny training parents on how to be parents...actually training parents on how to say NO.

"She threw her three-year-old out of the house because she "didn't listen to mommy."

If she was African-American in a poor neighborhood, this would have landed her in jail and she would have lost her children. Where is the father in this madness?

Culture is shaped by environment. The Chinese have been living at the carrying capacity of their land for centuries. When the inevitable famines swept the land, those who were ill prepared died. Thus a culture of hard work and preparation was selected. You could rise to the top, above the threat posed by peak population, through a civil service exam that existed for 2000 years. Thus, a huge value on education.

An environment that imposed the dicta, work hard, study hard or die will work wonders. Even those virtues didn't always work, thus was born the Chinese fascination with luck.

Absent the harsh language, American parents could learn alot from some Tiger Moms and Pops. We need to teach our children not only to excel in academics and personal achievements, but how to survive in a quickly changing world with unforeseen challenges.

There are many elements of the Chinese tradition: Such as hard work, driven and have a higher goal in life. This allows the Chinese people to overcome hardship and preservered. But there are also bad elements such as lacking the respect for individuality and diversity of goals one set for life in a more pluralistic society. China had only classicism and neo-classicm, not romanticism. Until the Chinese discover that human emotions are to be trusted, the Chinese will also behind, only learning the tools but not the essence of development.

I live in Hong Kong where Tiger moms are a dime a dozen - if they're not pushing the life out of their kids to excel in school, they making them take piano, violin, ballet, tennis and God-knows how many second language studies.

Of course, the down-side to this peaked several years ago when kids were jumping off the roof of the thirty story building they lived in. Unfortunately, this hasn't stopped many of these non-working TM's, for whom driving their kids to such extents is more about mom's status of having the smartest kid in the room, than anything to do with the child.

What results is an unhappy robot.

This woman is a nutball. She is abusing her children and nobody thinks to stop her from doing so?

PS:

When The "NEW WORLD TRADER CENTER" finally gets Completed or Able to Take in Tenants; i[WE] Was Promised A JOB/Position at the New W.T.C. (I'm a Marketing+ Guru)! And

Brother ZHAO (aka "CAPTAIN "Z") et al, will not be Depressed anymore. O' how me mis the Corporate Life, being Above The-World. BEAM US UP SCOTTY! Eeeeee Haaaa!

Secret: Learn CHINESE (Mandarin) PHONETICALLY! i.e., "KNEE-HOW" (Hello!).

It's a Funny Language, It's a Smart Language and Highly Respectful in both COMITY. It's Professional!

"GOOD BYE" (ZAi JIAN)!

"Thank You!" {ZsheeShee or Doe-Jay).

PS: Like Mr. Confucius {pbuh} would say, "TiME IS THE BEST MEDICINE" and "BETTER 1 QUALE IN HAND THEN 10 IN THE BUSH" [Similar]. OYE...!

Counselor AMY CHUA should consult a FAMILY-COURT Judge and then Train to become one.

As a Sabra-American raised by Afro-American's, i [WE] was fortunate enough to grow-up with some Chinese-American's. (Born here & transplanted). Note: Most Chinese People (in the Great TIGER State of Rich Man China) Don't Know What they are Missing, because They Can't Mingle with None-Chinese. So They Miss-Out in Inter-Ethnic-Learning (not Only sharing CULTutre, Lingo & Respect). But,

But i [WE] Remember, in [Old, Original; Before EMMINENT DOMAIN destroyed the NABE] Coney Island, NYC, how me Twin Sisstar and Her best Friend, Annella CHU(a?) Who's Parents owned a Chinese Restaurant, would Race Each Other (Compete) for The Highest Scores while Attending P.S. MARK TWAiN JR. H.S. [For The GIFTED & TALENTED today]. Note: Me Parents Had a Fruit Store (Mother who's Family Perished in Russia/Greece) and Me Dad had a Kitchen-Cabinet Factory (Who's Family Perished in Poland/Austria).

i[WE] remember how i'd listen to them Sing at the GLEA-CLUB And sometimes Play the Piano. I Remember me Twin "M" would Get-up 5am to Study. But Went To Sleep Early, Hence "Eoily Boids Gets da Woyms." Especially Before EXAM-WEEK. But

i [WE] Remember How Me Sis (She Was like a Tom-Boy, And Believe yeYo i, Her Nails was deadly) would almost CRy because Annella Beat Her by 1 or 2 Points... And When it Came To Graduation Time, a Miracle Happened.

The end was that Me Sis had Graduated with a '97' and Annella CHU(a) graduated with a '98'. Still both Cume Lauda. So, Both was # 1 and 2 Respectfully. Note: i Don't Know If Annela's Parent(s) was TIGER POP or Tiger MOM's but me Twin Never was Under any "PUSHY" Parents. OH, Here's The Miracle:

During Graduation My Father, Unknowingly Was Standing Next to His long lost "COUSIN" (RUTH) that was from His DNA/RNA!! Her Son DAVID "J" (Died Tragically later on {pbuh}) name was Called Out, and It was The Same Last Name as What it was before me Parents Americanized It. And Then Came That MIRACLE. So, Me Dad, A Holocaust/Shoah Victim Was NOT ALONE in This World anymore. That Was The Best Graduation EVER! Soo, CHINESE [People] Are Good Luck! THIS IS A TRUE STORY! me still get Goosy Woosy Bumpareeno's.
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Note: Recently i[WE] Observed how These Groups of Elderly [Quit & Nice] Chinese folks would Help The RECYCLE Industry by going Through The "GARBAGE" But Keep Things Clean. So, me is Glad Someone Is Making Money (a Living) the HARD Way. This is big in NYC.
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Unfortunately, via Observation and by using "iNSIGHT & PATTERN RECOGNITION" analysis: That MOST Chinese Whom Have Been PUSHED-HARD by Parents Go "NUTS" later in Life. And Those Whom are Not Pushed Stay Sane longer.
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PS: One Of my Best Employment Opportunity Employer via 1-WORLD TRADE CENTER (rm 8407); Was a Computer-Engineer CHINA-MAN; Mr. D. Y. ZHAO et al. We Loved Fishing. But Unfortunately Fortune Cookies Did'nt Tell/Warn Us About 911. The 1st Plane Hit right Above the Office. He's Alive!

That PISA about America being 17th in reading doesn't reflect our diversity:

Steve Sailer compared USA ethnic groups to worldwide foreign countries:
http://www.vdare.com/sailer/101219_pisa.htm

The highest scoring nations were in east Asia, and Asian-Americans outscored all the full Asian nations, losing only to China's Shanghai city. The next highest scoring nations were European or Anglo-settled, and American whites beat them all except Finland. Similarly, American Hispanics beat all Latino nations and African-Americans beat all foreign countries with significant black populations.

So we educate every ethnic group better than their ancestral homelands do; our diversity just brings us closer to the worldwide average than the worldwide top.