Rescuing 'jihad' from the terrorists

Returning back to the topic. CO-ven is an underground rock band from Pakistan worth listening to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ml4OG0n5WnA

On beheading Lambs and Bakris:

You keep bringing issue of cutting the head of lambs and bakris (how many Americans would know that goat is called bakri in India!!) What’s wrong with that? Why do you think its ok to only eat vegetables? Why do you think it’s OK to drink cow’s urine or wash your temples with it on important occasions? Why do you consider cows, elephants, monkeys, snakes to be your Gods? Aren’t they just supposed to be animals?

So Secretary Gates is visiting India? Is that big news over there? I don’t really keep track of the visits of foreign dignitaries here. There so many of them. And he is actually going to discuss Afghanistan’s stability with India!! That’s really gonna be exciting~! Sheesh~!

Clearthinking,

There is a huge difference between a country being close to getting declared bankrupt and a country actually being bankrupt. Pakistan has never defaulted in its debt repayments. There is no doubt that the last decade has been the most difficult in the history of Pakistan. Pakistan has been the biggest victim of terrorism and war on terror during this period. It has drained us of our resources, forced government to divert finances away from important projects. Driven away investor and cost us billions of dollars overall. Hard to believe that the economy was actually in its best shape ever just 3-4 years ago with record foreign reserves and the KSE best performing stock exchange in the region. Things are slowly getting better and Foreign Reserves are back to a respectable amount resulting in Moody’s and other agencies increasing Pakistan’s ratings. Pakistan has many problems but believe me Bankruptcy isn’t even an issue here. These kinds of issues happen with all countries, but with Pakistan being the center stage in the war on terror, the microscope of the world’s media is on our every act and even those things that would get overlooked if it were happening somewhere else is sensationalized to create a doomsday scenario by the media.

There are people in US and Europe who understand the contributions and sacrifices of Pakistani people and its importance. And then there are others like the people you have quoted who deliberately hide the context of the story to make it more sensational.

What do you think about the passivity Indian Hindus have shown towards terrorism by their against minorities of India? Ayodhia, Gujrat, Samjhota Express……. the list goes on. Has any one ever been indicted in these crimes against humanity? Didn’t the Indian people reward these terrorists by sending the fascist Hindu supremacists BJP and its allies to Power after the carnage of Babri mosque? Aren’t there vigilante forces of these Hindu extremists groups terrorizing Christians all over India and those Dalits who are turning towards Christianity because of the Hindu caste system? I don’t like to bring up these kinds of facts in my posts as I believe neither any country nor any religion is inherently evil. But you have been stupidly throwing accusations at muslims as if they are the only people guilty of misdemeanors. For the record, its only the muslims who are taking on the extremists amongst them. In India, no one can dare lay their hands on people like Narendar Modi, Bal Thackeray and L. K Advani despite irrefutable evidence of their involvement in the killings of muslims.

Clearthinking1:

I am not taking sides in this debate. However, I assure you that Pakistan is not bankrupt. In fact, earlier this evening I chatted with a World Bank friend about the economy there. It is not what it was three years ago, but far, far better than it was in 2008.

That is not to say that the nation's problems are minor. The problems in Pakistan are enormous. It would take weeks to list them, but the politicians are a huge part of it. Other problems surely stem from US interventionist policies of years gone by and an intermittent interest in that country only when it suits us. Now it suits us.

We've always been interested in India, for obvious reasons, none of them particularly laudable. That is why much that could be mentioned in the media, eg., India's ninety-five separate mafias, its shenanigans in Bangladesh, etc., go unnoticed.

That is why the United States has said nothing about India's hugely provocative move of placing seventeen (17) separate consulates in Afghanistan. Short of firing on Islamabad, it's hard to imagine what could be more aggressive given the current circumstances. And if the US needs to get involved, and it should, before fireworks erupt, I will be very interested in witnessing our tap dance.

Wouldn't it be better if INdia concentrated on the enormous poverty within its own borders?

As for Pakistan many Pakistanis believe, want the US to step in more aggressively with Zardari (LOL) on the matter of extremists, but this is a delicate matter and Zardari is no genius. Moreover, we have not been "great friends of Pakistan." And, I, for one, worry about what we might do.

The key is economic development. The keyhole is large. God help the poor in that country, in India, in the US, Haiti, all over the world.

Regards,
Farnaz

Y,

I forgot to address Baluchistan. The consensus in American Foreign policy community is that there is no tangible evidence for India's support of rebels. Secratary Gates is going to India today to discuss the stabilization of Afghanistan with economic, not military, aid.

Yasseryousufi,

We can go round and round but this should address some of your questions:

Bankruptcy:
Please read the article below with the following quote in a respected newspaper:
"Pakistan's foreign exchange reserves will run out within about seven weeks, meaning that it will not be able to meet external debt payments, making it bankrupt."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oct/23/pakistan-imf

Bruce Reidel, Jayshree Bajoria, Daniel Markey, Stephen Biddle, etc... are respected objective scholars in America.

Bloody border for today:
Torching of Nigerian church sets off deadly riot
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100118/ap_on_re_af/af_nigeria_violence

Islam is a cult by definition, like Christianity. I did not say "evil cult", but it is a supremacist & expansionist ideology and too comfortable with violence for the modern civilized world. Sufiism is the exception, not the rule. It will never dominate Islam. The question is whether nonviolence will dominate Islam. But as long as beheading lambs and bakris is considered festive and acceptable and silent support for islamic terrorism exists, change is unlikely. The lack of protests and silence by Pakistanis after muslim-on-muslim violence is deafening.

The evidence for Pakistan's support of terrorists and terrorist organizations (like Lashkar-e-Taiba) is well documented. Have you heard the tapes of the Mumbai attack or watched Fareed Zakaria's CNN show on Mumbai? Specifically, support for Osama Bin Laden and Al Queda is significant in Pakistan. Read some of the polls in the Columbia University Journal. This has to change.

Clearthinking,

The articles are written by an Indian Hindu writer Jayshree Bajoria, who has an obvious anti Pakistan slant. So nothing needs to be said about those articles. There are plenty of articles written by Pakistani writers about RAW sponsored Indian terrorism in Baluchistan and FATA in Pakistan. What do you say about those? No proof yet of Pakistan being bunkrupt, Islam being an evil cult, Islam's bloody borders, Pakistan aiding Al-Qaida and other of your flying accusations~!

Yasseryousufi,

A few more free articles for you.

Legatum Institute: Prospects for Pakistan
http://www.cfr.org/publication/21183/legatum_institute.html?breadcrumb=%2Fregion%2F263%2Fasia

Terrorism and Indo-Pakistani Escalation
CPA Contingency Planning Memorandum No. 6
http://www.cfr.org/publication/21042/terrorism_and_indopakistani_escalation.html?breadcrumb=%2Fregion%2F263%2Fasia

Enjoy.

Yasseryousufi,

My own country is America. From what I have read, India is coming out of its woes slowly but steadily since they became an independent, pluralistic, democracy 62 years ago. I know you hate Hindus and this really hurts you.

In contrast, Pakistan has become a dysfunctional basket case and source of terrorism.

Read and learn. Read about your own country, its recent history, support for terrorism, and corruption of its basic institutions.

Americans don't have anything against the Pakistani people but have had enough of the duplicitous charade. Besides, America can no longer afford to keep you competitive with military and economic aid, especially since Pakistan supports the Taliban and LeT. How long can that go on? Try to read Bruce Reidel's article if you can. Read the Kerry-Lugar bill and the conditions on Pakistan.

Here's a link to a free article at the prestigous Council on Foreign Relations in Washington, DC. This is where Bruce Reidel used to work before President Obama selected him to be his chief advisor for AfPak.

Profile: Lashkar-e-Taiba (Army of the Pure) (a.k.a. Lashkar e-Tayyiba, Lashkar e-Toiba; Lashkar-i-Taiba)
http://www.cfr.org/publication/17882/profile.html?breadcrumb=%2Fbios%2F13611%2Fjayshree_bajoria%3Fgroupby%3D0%26page%3D1%26hide%3D1%26id%3D13611

Pakistan's New Generation of Terrorists
http://www.cfr.org/publication/15422/pakistans_new_generation_of_terrorists.html?breadcrumb=%2Fbios%2F13611%2Fjayshree_bajoria%3Fgroupby%3D0%26page%3D1%26hide%3D1%26id%3D13611

Denial & self-delusion have to be destroyed before you and Pakistan can make any progress. So stop denying the support for Islamic terrorists and start honestly and truly correcting it.

By the way, terrorism is morally wrong.

Clearthinking,

I dont think you're used to your opinions being challenged. You've only thrown away wild accusations without ever checking the background info. And now you want to back up all those insinuations with a table of contents of some journal!

Really I've said what I've said about you. You've been a waste of bytes. I have nothing to argue with you. Im here to argue with people who know a thing or two about what they're writing. Your ignorance has been laid bare by your response. It would serve indian hate mongers like you well if you also spend some time thinking about how you can help your own country come out of its perennial woes~!

yasser,

I also suggest the following Pakistan history book for a little perspective.

"The Duel: Pakistan on the Flight Path of American Power"
by Tariq Ali

Also, this is a good book for people getting too much madrasa propaganda:

"Invisible History: Afghanistan's Untold Story"
By Paul Fitzgerald, Elizabeth Gould, and Sima Wali

If you read and learn -IF- , you will see how what I write is accurate. Your name calling and insults don't really hurt, but it is amusing that you think Americans are really being fooled by Pakistani leaders. It is the Pakistani people being fooled by their corrupt leaders. But you all ( Pakistani leaders and ignorant masses) seem to agree that you hate Hindus. You will destroy yourself in your own acid of hate. So, its time to become civilized.

yasseryousufi,

Here is the table of contents of the latest volume of this journal.

Columbia University School of International and Public Affairs
JOURNAL OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS

PAKISTAN & AFGHANISTAN
Domestic Pressures and Regional Threats
Fall/Winter 2009
Vol. 63, No. 1

Ishrat Husain - The Role of Politics in Pakistan’s Economy
Andrew Wilder - The Politics of Civil Service Reform in Pakistan
C. Christine Fair - Pakistan’s Own War on Terror: What the Pakistani Public Thinks
Ayesha Siddiqa - Jihadism in Pakistan: The Expanding Frontier
Marvin G. Weinbaum - Countering Insurgency and Terrorism in Pakistan
Saeed Shafqat - Pakistan: Militancy, Transition to Democracy and Future U.S Relations
Bruce Riedel - The Mumbai Massacre and its Implications for America and South Asia
Sumit Ganguly & Nicholas Howenstein - India-Pakistan Rivalry in Afghanistan
Syed Hasnat - Pakistan’s Strategic Interests, Afghanistan and the Fluctuating U.S. Strategy
Kimberly Marten - The Danger of Tribal Militias in Afghanistan

Interview with Dov Zakheim
Cordier Essay by Justin Mankin - How Afghan Opium Underpins Local Power
Review Essays: Tabinda Khan, Austin Long and Francesco Mancini

Eight years after the attacks of 9/11 and the toppling of the Taliban regime in Afghanistan, Western political and military leaders recognize that success with statebuilding in Afghanistan is not possible without the support of its powerful neighbor, Pakistan. As the Obama administration reformulates its strategy for the AfPak region, the Fall/Winter 2009 issue of the Journal of International Affairs offers a timely exploration of issues critical to stability and development in the region.

Offering insightful analysis from leading scholars, the Journal addresses key issues surrounding the Pakistani Taliban, the Afghani insurgency, Pakistan’s ongoing tensions with India, and America’s regional security strategy, all of which must be understood and assessed to achieve long-term stability for Pakistan and Afghanistan. Covering topics ranging from civil/military relations in Pakistan to the perceptions of the Pakistani populace toward the Taliban and its own government, the Journal’s contributors highlight the region's brimming tensions and, more importantly, future prospects for sustainable peace and security.

Drawing on perspectives from Pakistan and India to complement those of the United States, the Fall/Winter 2009 issue of the Journal of International Affairs offers this in-depth analysis on Pakistan and Afghanistan from the world’s foremost experts.

— The Editors

Yasseryousufi,

For you education.
Ignorance and lack of education is the problem for all of you Pakistanis.

SO, let's start with some facts. I am an American who has studied international relations and know about South Asia (more than you). I read scholarly journals and will send you the links. Please read and learn.

The following journal is currently available for $15.00. Many others are free on the internet, like Foreign Affairs and the Council on Foreign Relations.

http://jia.sipa.columbia.edu/current.html

One of the articles is by Bruce Reidel. He is America's foremost expert on Pakistan. He is President Obama's top advisor on Pakistan. He was in the CIA in the 1980's. So read what he has to say about Lashkar-e-Taiba and ISI. Many other articles are by Pakistani scholars. They all contradict what you write. I also suggest you read Ayesha Siddiqa. I can suggest numerous journals if you are truly interested in educating yourself. I will post the Table of contents for you.

"The day you feed your half a billion hungry naked slum dwellers you can call us backwards."

Haha, good one.

I heard a poet say ,in reference to scripture.
"they don't belong to you anymore",
once out there.

I guess, it all depends on the influence of the imam/priest or rabbi. Often there are gifted children seeking good direction. Common bonds are formed with common experiences. God's Grayce.
It's the "luck of the draw", whether they go left or right at the T? I wonder?
No,sadly.

Does the search for self purpose ever end?
"When the last bird falls and the last siren sounds, someone will say what's been said before, it's only love we're looking for"

In my opinion,Current-events
Commanding General,Gupta,Haiti Mission

Clearthinking,

The funniest thing about you is that you want to convince everyone that you’re an American scientist who only has interest in Hindu Vedanta and culture. How many Americans know about “Zardari, Kayani, Gilani, Haqqani, Mehsud,” from Pakistan and on top of that bogus info about Paris Club and Friends of Pakistan, hindu hatred and Indo-Pak wars. I mean how pathetic is someone who lies about his own identity. Im now doubting if you’ve even been to America, and aren’t posting from some internet cafe in Calcutta! Your whole post is the carbon copy of the crap reports appearing on the sensationalist Indian News media. Their news stories have zero credibility at the best of times but when it comes to Pakistan, all hell breaks loose and all we have is the most stupid conjecturing. No wonder anyone ever takes them seriously.

So the Miliband and Kayani are in charge of Pakistan! Do you expect anyone to take you seriously after this comment? Funny an Indian imposter knows better than us who our leaders are.

“ECONOMICS: Pakistan was unable to make it's payments so the debt had to be restructured again in December 2001 by the Paris Club and other "Friends of Pakistan" [read "users of Pakistan"}. Even the restructured payments could not be made in November 2008 so, the IMF had to step in with special cash infusion. This is called bankruptcy.”

I challenge you to prove this statement. You make things up as you go along. You have a serious credibility issue Sir! I’m hoping you wont run away from the challenge this time. I had asked you to prove your claim and you come with this absurd statement. Where’s the source?

Lashkar-e-Taiba is a banned organization! Again your sensationalist fox news like Indian media dishes out more embarrassing falsehoods to you. No Sikh training camps here. That’s more baloneys from you im afraid.

“Pakistan is unquestionably the "epicenter of terrorism" as the Indian Foreign Minister used to say.”

Yep, coming from the Indian Foreign Minister, it’s sure gonna be credible!! You pathetic little wimp!

“It's one thing to be a backward country, but another to be a backward country going backward.”

Kinda like pot calling the kettle. The day you feed your half a billion hungry naked slum dwellers you can call us backwards. The shining India is a myth to fool the world. Terrorism is a passing shower. We’ll get through it sooner or later. The existential threats India faces are much more grave. Last time I counted, there were active separatist movement in 9 of your provinces. The evil game India is playing in Baluchistan via Afghanistan will in turn bite it back.

You think too much of yourself, me thinks. There’s no way you can inflame me or whatever. You ‘re a funny little ignoramus who’s doesn’t even know what he’s talking about. Don’t go bragging around with your half cooked theories where educated people debate kiddo. Coz you gonna get found out and its not a nice feeling.

Yasseryousufi,

You hit the nail on the head: Quote "Pakistan is going no where". It certainly has not made progress in politics, economics, education, social, or culture. You have read this before I am sure. I know you are proud of being "Pakistani", but unfortunately Pakistan and leaders have failed most of its people and you know it. They are corrupt and destructive. I think they are so full of hate for Hindus that they have sold out their own people and sold their soveriegnty repeatedly so they could cause problems for Hindus. Sad but true. The UK, US, & China know this character flaw (obsessive hatred of Hindus) and have used your country and people as a geoplolitical tool.

POLITICS: Nobody asks the poor people of Pakistan. The corrupt leaders live in the West. It was strange to watch the discussions in Washington, DC think tanks about how to make Bhutto and Musharraf work together to fool the Pakistani people into thinking they had representation and not just a western trained military dictator. Who's in charge of the country now - Zardari, Kayani, Gilani, Haqqani, Mehsud, Miliband, Holbrooke? I vote for Miliband + Kayani.

ECONOMICS: Pakistan was unable to make it's payments so the debt had to be restructured again in December 2001 by the Paris Club and other "Friends of Pakistan" [read "users of Pakistan"}. Even the restructured payments could not be made in November 2008 so, the IMF had to step in with special cash infusion. This is called bankruptcy. This is also after tens of billions of American taxpayer direct aid, which ended up making corrupt generals and leaders wealthier.

EDUCATION: The scholarly journals in America are filled with articles about the madrassa problem and lack of modern education. How are you going to blame that on someone else (not islam)? Pakistanis changed their educational system in the 1970's to promote madrassas, before the Soviets or CIA. Are the people blowing up girls schools today nonmuslims?

CULTURE: Sikh and Muslim training camps have operated openly in Pakistan for 30 years. Even today, Lashkar-e-Taiba operates openly in Punjab. One has to conclude that the majority Pakistanis are very comfortable with terrorists and murder of innocents as state policy. Let's not even discuss the ISI and its behavior. Pakistan is unquestionably the "epicenter of terrorism" as the Indian Foreign Minister used to say.

It's one thing to be a backward country, but another to be a backward country going backward.

The reason I write these facts is not to just to inflame people like you, but to force people like you who think they are moderate to awaken and start changing themselves to true moderation so Pakistanis can join the community of civilized nations.

You can't secretly support terrorism and be part of the civilized world. Not now with everyone watching carefully.

Hello Yasseryousufi,

Yes, I love Sufism and the mystics and poetic masters of that way. I did not practice Sufism per se, but part of my spiritual practices have been ecstatic readings of Rumi and Hafiz and Kabir. Fabulous love of God! Would that I could live in that kind of state of Love and Joy always!

Salman,

You are a truly amazing human being, a wonderful artist. One day, I hope to see/hear you with the Idan Raichel Project.

Anything can happen, and that would be a wonderful thing for me to see.

http://www.idanraichelproject.com/en

Sufi mysticism has the same appeal as many other schools of mysticism, including my own particular preference, which is Zen.

However, the Sufis have been persecuted by mainstream Islam for generations as being 'out of the fold'....this is not uncommon within the history of Christian mysticism either, by any means. Whatever challenges orthodoxy is generally viewed as 'heretical'. Judaism is much more accepting of it's mystical branches.

The fact is, Hindus should understand all of this very well - although there are many variations on Advaita Vedanta, etc. Mainstream Hinduism is no more based on mysticism than any other conventional religion....as the true mystic is quite rare wherever he/she is found.

The truths they discover are universal, however.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism

@justillthennow

Hello Justin!

Its always refreshing to hear voices of sanity and coexistense on this blog. Staying on the topic, did you ever happen to venture into the world of Sufi Music and Poetry.

Yasser!

Clearthinking,

Your consistent rant of Islam is a cult, Islam is evil, Islam is hateful, only Muslims are terrorist blah blah blah~!!!! is getting pretty boring and is getting close to me deciding to ignore your posts completely in the future because they are so predictable, ignorant and hateful.

You have these pre-concieved notions about muslims that you put on everyone you talk to without giving them a thought. Where did you find identity confusion with my posts? Didn’t I tell you I was a Pakistani and wasn’t ashamed of exposing my identity like you

“The denial and self-delusion is apparent in your own words:
"the Shia Sunni Schism has been relatively peaceful". Peaceful? Enough said.”

Wow that was a nice argument! I said relatively. Do you care to provide any evidence why you think Shia-Sunni Schism is somehow more violent than the Catholic-Protestant Schism or those in Hinduism? There are plenty of Shias and Sunnis in your home country living along side. Aren’t they living peacefully?

"there was never any Hindu influence in Pakistan". Pakistan is only a 62 year old country for God's sake. What was there before?

Go read your post again! You said as Hindu influence wanes in Pakistan………..

The Hindu influence waned in Pakistan 62 years ago even hundreds of years before that this region was majority muslim. The terrorisim and suicide bombings started 8 years ago when US invaded Afghanistan. There is no link between the two events. How come Hinduism cannot influence its own Hindus to stop butchering Christians and Muslims in India?

“Uh, without the IMF, Paris club, and London club financial bailouts, Pakistan is bankrupt. Do some research on the web.”

OK lets see your research. Prove it to me that Pakistan would have been bankrupt!

Kargil was a border skirmish, not a war. No one declared war on anyone during Kargil. We believe more Indian soldiers died than ours. You believe otherwise. There is no way to know. It was a covert operation. Like the one India did in the 80’s to occupy Siachen. But the decent thing would have been to admit you were wrong about India winning every war. I guess that would be too much to expect from you.

You can twist my “no one can ignore Pakistan” which ever way you like. Coming from you, an obvious hater it’s got no meaning for me. I stand by what I said. Pakistan is the sixth most populous country in the World, one of the most influential in the Islamic world with the biggest army in the muslim world. Plus it’s a Nuclear power. We are a victim of terrorism and a frontline ally in the fight against terrorism. We provided the bulwark against communism for 50 years and were one of the reasons for the shamefull defeat of the Soviets at the hands of a rag tag army resulting in the eventual downfall of Communism. These are the facts which cannot be easily overlooked. So all you haters can eat your heart out. Pakistan is going no where~!

Yasseryousufi,

Islam is not a culture, ethnicity, or a nation. It is a cult-like religion (i.e. based on a founder or self-proclaimed prophet). Your identity confusion is a good example of what's wrong with the "muslim world", muslim this, muslim that identity. It leads to identity confusion and an irrational but powerful need to belong to something. Eboo Patel, you, & the underwear bomber are good examples. I know you write nice things every now and then about how all humans are the same etc., but the islamic hatred and violence bubbles to the surface regularly no matter how hard you try.

The denial and self-delusion is apparent in your own words:
"the Shia Sunni Schism has been relatively peaceful". Peaceful? Enough said.
"there was never any Hindu influence in Pakistan". Pakistan is only a 62 year old country for God's sake. What was there before?
"No one’s begging anything from anyone." Uh, without the IMF, Paris club, and London club financial bailouts, Pakistan is bankrupt. Do some research on the web.
"India-Pak wars: I say its 1-1 with Pakistan having fared slightly better in the third draw." Obviously, denial is not just a river in Egypt. How about Kargil, when General Mush denied that his soldiers were his soldiers. The soldiers' bodies lay rotting under the sun, disrespected by their own Pakistani Army. Sharif's trip to America to beg forgiveness and withdrawl was a draw in your mind?

"no one can afford to ignore Pakistan in this region." This is a true and truly sad statement. It sounds like a suicide bomber's last thought. The reason no one can ignore Pakistan is the same reason that no one can afford to ignore Al Queda. If you don't give me money and do as I say, I will kill myself and all the kids at the volleyball game or the Paki nukes will be loose or whatever. This threat and the attention makes you proud?

Hello DanielintheLionsDen

On to the subject at hand, authentic rock and roll music appeals to the sensual if not sexual nature of man, and the experience of man. Christian rock music is inauthentic in this respect, since Christianity promotes a prudish, neurotic attitude towards sex.

Even more so, for Islam whose prudery apporaches psychosis"

You stereotype too much, methinks, and assume as much. I have heard a bunch of Christian rock that definitely touches the sensual and sexual nature of man and woman. Some of that energy was enhanced by the Christian moralities, not detracted by them, in part for the open hearted and honest lyrics and in part because the ideal of consummating the sexual energy is capped by the concept of 'abstaining' from consummation till 'later'.

Celibacy is not an evil, or even bad. It can allow and encourage enjoyment of the sensual/sexual nature of humanity, if it is honestly engaged in and committed to.

You spread stereotyping over too much of the sandwich, perhaps.

Salman, Great job, will buy your book now!.
thank you for being such an inspirational human being. I love your music ,intellect and am proud of your contributions to the world and especially to south Asian(pakistani,indian )youth.
Anxiously waiting for new album by junoon Please!!!!
Attended your concert in august 2001 in newy ork, Will never forget the power of your music.Thank you

"(Oops! I commented on Islam, and I am not an expert; so go ahead, behead me; see if I care)."

Aww man! Is there anything more boring in life than fox and friends comedy!

I hate no one more than ignorant bigots who claim to know about everything under the sun. Indians, Pakistani's, American's at the core we're all the same. We all want to live with peace dignity and honor. Really Daniel, if you can.......do try to cough out all this hatred of Islam you've consumed from uncredible sources like Irshad Manji. Most of us are normal people like you. And yes believe it or not, music is also a large part of our identity where ever you go in the Islamic world. The Sufi's of sub-continent introduced the high pitched, frenzied music of qawwalis way back in the 13th century. Kinda like modern day rock concerts with lots of cheering, dancing and heavy drumming. If you stick to hate mongers like Manji, Im afraid you'll remain as ignorant as you are and would never be able to appreciate the beauty different cultures can offer.

halozcel1 Wrote:
Dear Ahmed,
Nobody hijacked anything.No offend,please,no offend,but,Islam/Submission is the Cult of Hate and Tenets of *Christ was a Muslim* are not compatible with Contemporary Life.This is the Core Issue.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Christ was Muslim? Some one is smoking something.
Christ was a Jew.
Mohammad would not be born yet for about 500years
The religion at that time was more about Ishmael.

Yousufi

People who immigrate to America are Americans. My dentist is from Pakistan and he is an American.

And people who were born and raised in an Islamic country and then immigrated or fled to America are "experts" on Islam, in my opinion, probably more expert than you.

Yasseryousufi,

You're not as cool as you think you are Buddy-boy. Yessiree, Buster.

(I'm trying to think up more American slang from the 1950's.)

Oh, try "neato." That was popular back then, too.

Your name is not cool at all. Why don't you change it to Billy? Or maybe Joey, since Yousufi seems to be a derivative of Joseph.

On to the subject at hand, authentic rock and roll music appeals to the sensual if not sexual nature of man, and the experience of man. Christian rock music is inauthentic in this respect, since Christianity promotes a prudish, neurotic attitude towards sex.

Even more so, for Islam whose prudery apporaches psychosis.

(Oops! I commented on Islam, and I am not an expert; so go ahead, behead me; see if I care).

Yasseryousufi,

Thankyou for clarifying that the main enemy is India.

Also, it is a relief to realize that you hate India more than America.

Take your band to Mecca.
Set up between the minarets.
Play you crazy Casbah jive!
See what happens!
Your destiny has been foretold by the prophet “John Graham Mellor” !

On India-Pakistan Wars:

India-Pakistan wars provide Hindu Nationalist the rare opportunity of some wild chest thumping. However the fact is that Indian winning all three wars cannot be farther from the truth. In the first war in 1948, the local tribesmen (not even the army), freed half of Kashmir from the Dogra Hindus. In 1965 Pakistani forces were several miles inside Indian territory when the Indians begged for ceasefire. In 1971 India did succeed in helping a terrorist organization and dismembering Pakistan, but it was more because the two wings didn’t want to live together anymore, and the experiment of having a country separated by hundreds of miles didn’t quite succeed. So in all fairness I say its 1-1 with Pakistan having fared slightly better in the third draw~! And lets not forget btw that India is 7 times bigger than Pakistan.

Terrorism that causes death of innocent non-combatants is reprehensible. Whether it be done by machete wielding hindu fanatics in Gujrat or by Muslims in America and Europe. I condemn all of it.

Clearthinking,

That’s a lot of yapping even by a Hindu fanatic’s standards. That “I am an American, a scientist, and a student of Vedanta, Hinduism” fools no one. I’ve seen you religiously appear on WaPo in the aftermath of every suicide bombing in Pakistan, making fun of dead people and asking Americans to help India subdue Pakistan. All one needs to do is type that id and look at all the posts under that name. I say 90% of them would be anti-pakistani.

So whats the big deal with Shia Sunni Schism in Islam? Aren’t their Schism’s in Christianity? Don’t the Hindu untouchables (Dalit’s) suffer the most inhumane treatment at the hands of upper cast hindus? Compared to that, the Shia Sunni Schism has been relatively peaceful. Plus its only logical that in such a huge faith denomination there will be difference of opinions. Like a typical bigot you try to twist this issue to suit your ignorant argument. So only muslims cut the heads of the Lambs? Dude get out of your Indian village and see some real daylight. It happens all around the world. Just because hindus don’t eat meat and drink cow’s pee it doesn’t make them superior. Geez!

FYI, there was never any Hindu influence in Pakistan. That’s standard crap straight from Indian sensationalist crap TV commentators. No one takes you small minded wimps seriously. You seem to believe a lot in conspiracy theories. I have no idea what you have in your mind regarding Benazir and Nawaz Sharif. If you’re so much into conspiracy theories, here’s one for you to ponder over. Who decided that the whole Gandhi-Nehru clan be wiped out and the biggest democracy in the world came under the thumb of a European woman of Italian descent?

You obviously have no idea about the vagaries of International Relations. No one begged money from the US. Americans have been in Afghanistan for the last 8 years destabilizing the whole region. Pakistan as a frontline ally has suffered tremendously as a result of this war on terror but has still stood steadfast because we believe that this war isn’t just in America’s favor but in ours as well. Its incumbent upon the US and its allies to help out Pakistan because without Pakistan’s help they would be just sitting ducks for the Taliban. No one’s begging anything from anyone. Americans themselves realize that they need to help out Pakistan in rooting out terrorism. Indians are obviously jealous since there agenda has always been to make Pakistan a pariah state. That sadly wont happen in the near future since no one can afford to ignore Pakistan in this region.

Yasseryousufi,

So, islam doesn't just have bloody borders, but has a bloody interior also. Nothing new - the Shiite/Suni bloody schism did start around 600 AD. Good point. Maybe if slowly cutting the head of a lamb while chanting wasn't taught to all children, these societies would be more peaceful.
This idea of "extremists" is mostly a state of denial. The "moderate" in some muslims comes from the peaceful nonmuslim historical cultures in those regions like Indonesia or India.

As Hindu influence wanes in Pakistan, hatred and violence has proliferated. The cognitive disonance must be difficult for Pakistanis trying to find their roots in the Arabian Peninsula and not being able to. This is why the first thing Pakistanis did was sell their country, lease their military, and corrupt their economy to their colonial masters. Who do you think decided that Benazir Bhutto should come back 2 years ago? Pakistanis or British/Americans? Who decided Sharif should go and be replaced by Musharraf?

There's a lot of tough talk from Pakistanis. The PM came to America, begged for billions, the Pakis took the billions, but talked tough.
But every war has been soundly lost by Pakistan to those weak, cowardly, principled and truly strong Hindus. This is with all the military help from Britain, America, & China. Can you imagine what Pakistanis would have accomplished without outside help? (hint: not much) Even the centrifuge technology is stolen, N-bomb design given by China; missile technology from North Korea. Do you get the feeling that UK, US, & China have just been using your hatred of Hindus.

Terrorism is the lowest moral act for humans, yet has been embraced by Pakistanis. As the world becomes democratic, pluralistic, and secular; Pakistan has become an intolerant, autocratic, Islamic Republic.

BTW, I have stated many times on these blogs that I am an American, a scientist, and a student of Vedanta, Hinduism, & Bhuddism. You can attack my bias or you can respond to facts.

Clearthinking,

Bingo~! You finally found a mistake in my post! Of course I’m a Pakistani and I’m never shy of mentioning it on these blogs. Unlike Indian Hindu Americans who are too ashamed to expose their identity and try to post their innate hatred of Muslims while posing as Americans. Guess what? You can’t fool all the people all the time. That’s an American quote I guess! English is obviously not my first language! These grammatical things are Indian infatuations. I don’t bother with word check before posting. Im just concerned about getting the point through and that I believe I do.

So you like throwing racists slang words around ‘eh? Makes your posts sound cool? The word ‘Paki’ speaks more about the idiot who utters it than us. There was nothing victim paranoid about my post. Maybe you should take your medications before you bumble on these blogs. I really think you guys suffer from an inferiority complex. Maybe that’s because we ruled you for so long unchallenged, despite being just above a tenth of the population. Look at your own posts buster. Its you who has got the paranoid, siege mentality. You guys keep on egging Americans to pick up fights with Muslims because you know you cannot do it on your own. One has to feels sorry for worthless shills like you guys. You can never be man enough to do anything on your own.

Pakistan is actually fighting a full scale war against Taliban. We’ve lost thousands of our soldiers in this War in the last year. More than NATO. The counter insurgency tactics of the Pakistan were so successful that the NATO people are following our model (as in Swat). All the major bigwigs of Al-Qaida that US holds were caught and handed over by Pakistan to them. We provide all the logistics to US and NATO. Without Pakistan, this expensive war would have cost US and NATO 10 times more financially and probably 100 times more in terms of human loss. What the US pays Pakistan is a fraction of what this war costs us. We lend them our air bases, provide security to their reinforcements from Karachi all the way to Khyber.

Do you really think CIA is a force for goodness? 9/11 has many conspiracy theorists. Most of them in US. There are whole websites dedicated to it. Probably someone has written a book on it too. A very small percentage of muslims think it was done by Zionists.

The ignorance of this bigoted windbag is simply breathtaking. Egypt, Algeria, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Indonesia all these countries are taking on extremists within our ranks. We cannot convince those who lock their minds. We have no interest in doing so.

yasseryousufi,

Are you also "South Asian"?
You wrote: "There knowledge of Islam is obviously scanty, distorted, biased and full of factual errors."
In America, "there" is different from "their" (there's also they're).

All you Pakis always write that someone is paying others to write against islam. Your paranoid victim and "martyr" feelings are typical of all apologists for islamic terrorism. And your favorite target is Hindus (What did these historically peaceful people ever do to you?). You pick fights, then claim to be victims. Now you picked a fight with Americans - bad move.
Since 9/11 and now with Obama, everyone gets your double game. The Pakistanis want American money and pretend to be against terrorism while supporting the Taliban, Al Queda, and other terrorists like LeT. You pretend to be peaceful while beheading lambs for celebration. [Peaceful people have compassion for animals & humans and sometimes become vegetarians]. You claim to be victims, while plotting against others.

We have read your lame excuses. The CIA made us terrorists. The zionists were behind 9/11. The extremists have hijacked our religion. When did this hijacking happen? 600 AD.
The FACT of islam's bloody borders is sad but true, and you know it. Islamic terrorism is uniquely cruel and mean with uniquely broad support from Saudi Arabia (mecca & medina) to Pakistan.

So who are the "bigoted hatemongers", as you call people?

For the sake of PEACE.
Wed. Dec. 30 08:08 2009

While weeping and praying realized I must send this to you in the hope that your teachers and leaders of integrity will incorporate this into their teachings.

Have your editors disseminate my missives of mass instruction in the wisest way, right away. We have a reputation to uphold.

In the last few days the stimulus of misadventure worldwide prompted me to post the following to several comment boards and to e-mail several significant heads of state.

Author: The 2010 Matriot Gamester.

The men who shaped our religions and politics have harmed us terribly and we WILL not allow them to continue.

RE-EDUCATE THE WORLD REGARDING WHAT IS RIGHT. IT IS THE OPPOSITE OF WRONG AND THE ONLY RIGHT WE HUMANS HAVE IS THE RIGHT TO DO RIGHT.

I. Nouns. Wrong, iniquity, wickedness, unrighteousness, improbity, wrongdoing, evil, sin, guilt, shame, disobedience, misdoing, delinquency, malpractice, obliquity; grievance, tort (law), injury, offense, malum in se (L.), transgression, crime, villainy; falsity, error. Injustice, unfairness, unjustness, inequity, hardship, imposition, oppression, foul play; partiality, leaning, bias, prejudice, prepossession, nepotism, favor, favoritism, partisanship; undueness, unlawfulness, illegality. II. Verbs. Do wrong, be inequitable, show partiality, favor, lean towards; encroach; impose upon; reap where one has not sown. Wrong, injure, harm, damage, hurt, serve ill, misserve, disserve, do injury to, maltreat, abuse, cheat, defraud, treat unjustly; dishonor, disgrace. III. Adjectives. Wrong, wrongful, iniquitous, bad, wicked, reprehensible, sinful, immoral, evil, blameworthy; injurious, detrimental, hurtful, harmful, baneful, deleterious, noxious, pernicious. Unjust, unfair, inequitable, unequal, partial, one-sided. Unjustifiable, unreasonable, unwarrantable, objectionable, inexcusable, unauthorizable, unjustified; unlawful, illegal, immoral, criminal, [out of order] disordered, deranged, amiss, faulty, out of kilter (IU.S. colloq.), disarranged, disturbed, out of gear, crank, cranky, shaky, in bad condition. Erroneous, inaccurate, incorrect, faulty, inexact, unsound, illogical, mistaken, false, untrue, wide of the mark (as, a wrong conclusion). Improper, unfit, inappropriate, unsuitable, inapposite, inapt, incongruous. IV. Adverbs. Wrong, amiss, wrongly, erroneously, inaccurately, incorrectly, falsely, improperly. Wrongfully, unjustly, unfairly, inequitably, injuriously, banefully, etc. (see adjectives). Also BADNESS, EVIL, ILLEGALITY, IMPROPRIETY, MALEVOLENCE, VICE.

Dear Salman,

Its a commendable effort. Please dont get offendde by Jerks like clearthinking and Arif. They are infact hindus in different garbs (Pakistani, American) and have probably been hired to spew vitriol on this site against Islam. There knowledge of Islam is obviously scanty, distorted, biased and full of factual errors. There is indeed an audience for your kind of message amongst educated, well meaning americans (who as usal vastly outnumber bigoted hatemongers like some on this blog). I say keep up the good work. And I do believe there is a place for music in Islam too. Any doubters just need to listen qawwalis by mystical sufi renderers like Ghulam Farid Sabri or Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan. I've grown up listening to your music and was saddened that you found other indulgences instead of being a full time musician. As they say, Once a Junooni always a Junooni :-)

Why do you call yourself South Asian? Is that a country or ethnicity? Are you part Indian, part Pakistani, & part Sri Lankan?

It seems that you and all the members of Junoon are Pakistani. So why not be honest? What else are you dishonest about? Is it all about spin and image and PR? No substance or honesty?

And you want to write about religion and spirituality and faith in "South Asia"?

Dear Mr. musician with a goatee & beret,

You wrote, "But don't let any self-styled "jihadis" or misguided Islamophobes fool you into thinking that the twain can't meet."

I don't think I am a "misguided Islamophobe", but I do see the bloody borders of Islam today, the bloody soil of the past, and the closed mind of Islam everywhere.

Please go to Saudi Arabia, live there, and write these words until your fellow muslims change. We, in America, get it. We are no misguided Islamophobes, but we are morally outraged when innocents are killed in the name of Islam.

Either stop the killing or stop the Islam is peaceful stuff. Can't have it both ways. You know that better than others. Just look at how Pakistan has been slowly tearing itself apart since its independence.

Salman:

Many Muslims do consider you an infidel.
First for living among the Kuffar (infidels), and second because you use an instrument other than tambourine, and third because you do not seem to believe in the Jihad for the sake of making Islam the dominant world religion.
I personally think you are a harmless opportunist who is using this cite to promote your book and your music.

Good luck with your book. Any effort that can influence positive change in relations between the 'western world' and Islam is a beautiful and blessed thing.

By your accounting and with the input of your link to Patheos on jihad it is clear that the concept and meaning of "jihad" was not hijacked by Osama Bin Laden and al-Qaeda, but had been reinterpreted from the original since a long time. I understand that inside Islam there is a struggle going on to reform Islam into the modern world. This is good, and unfortunately bloody. It is a tragedy that these evolutions need be bloody, but then religion hits some very deep chords in the human psyche.

I pray for open minds and hearts from all sides that we may find and grow and defend common ground, over the pasts desire to attack based on the differences.

Dear Dr.Salman Ahmed,
Pakistani Musician.

Yes,you may be right.Some concepts might be hijacked.But,is it so easy to hijack anything from muslims.
You mentioned 49.13 and I write 49.15 which says *The True believers are those only who believe in Allah and His messenger and afterward doubt not,but strive with their wealth and THEIR LIVES for the cause of Allah* The cause of Allah means Islam/Shariah State.

Problem is not only relations between America(USA) and Muslim World(there is not such a Monolith World).
What about relation;
-between India and Muslims,
-between China and Muslims,
-between Non-Muslim Africa and Muslims(Darfur)
-between Europe and Muslims,
-between Australia and Muslims
-between Ahmedis and Sunnis in Pakistan.
And,what about the War between Sunnis and Shiites in Yemen and Saudi-Yemeni border and in Iraq and Radical Muslims versus Secular Muslims in certain countries.

Dear Ahmed,
Nobody hijacked anything.No offend,please,no offend,but,Islam/Submission is the Cult of Hate and Tenets of *Christ was a Muslim* are not compatible with Contemporary Life.This is the Core Issue.

I grew up in Lahore and my parents are good people but like any 5 time/day praying Muslim we were not allowed music in the house. You might say they did not know real Islam, but they do. Cat Stephens a prominent musician whom muslims like to claim and put forward as their white convert role model gave up music once he became muslim. Now he is old and grey and perhaps needs money so he sings for commercials, and may also put out an album or two.
You need to explain Islam-and-Music to muslim imams, then Islam-and-Jihad to them while you are at it. Convert or as muslims like to use the word "revert" the "self-styled" jihadist first, take your message to them where it matters most.

Rock On!