Silence is not moderation

I would pass out if I ever heard those words coming out of a muslim. Perhaps in a generation or two, but frankly, I don't see it happening today.

I am amazed at most of these comments. They are not comments but talking with other"commenters". Silly arguments. What are we talking about here, but a proposal by Sam Harris that the Imam Rauf make the statement stating the moderate Muslims modern stance as they seems to say it is. With a statement like this he could defuse the mosque problem. If moderate Muslims are really this moderate the rest of the world and New Yorkers should have no fear of a new Mosque. But will he or could he, the Imam Rauf, make such a statement and live more than a few minutes?
That is the Question. Will he, won't he? Do you think this is a good idea? Do you have a better one?
The need is to change a terrorist organization into a peaceful social organization. Any group that espouses killing as a means to further its goals must be classified a terrorist. What else could it be?
Thanks Sam for a means to a good end. If only......?

I disagree with the author that raising concern about building a mosque close to ground zero is not bigotry. It suggests that moderate Muslims are responsible for the actions of people who claim to be their co-religionists. They simply are not. And moderate Muslims have, on many occasions, whether or not they've gotten The Washington Post's attention when they have, distanced themselves and their values from extremists. They had as little to do with 9/11 as pig farmers in Mississippi, and to suggest that they have to do it yet again for the sake of a bigoted public suggests that the division is the fault of moderate Muslims, rather than on a Fox News watching public. This is nothing but bigotry.

Telling an Imam to tell Muslims that Islam has to grow up is condescending. So is telling them to revise their religious beliefs to conform to liberal values. And it's not at all a constructive suggestion because it is intellectually dishonest from the perspective of people who believe that truth emanates from the written Quran (and hence the reader must employ forwards reasoning in interpreting the text, rather than reading into the text a liberal agenda). Many Muslims are organically interpreting the Quran in liberal ways, and many Muslims in a contrived apologetic way, as the author suggests that they do. It's a shame that he's been blind to these efforts, and been given space by WP to make it seem as if these efforts have not existed.

But the discussion of the merits and demerits of Islam is irrelevant to the real debate about whether or not a non-threatening group should be stopped from expanding their community hall.

Moderate,

"Torture any Arabs lately?"

That's not a very moderate thing to say, is it? I know that Sam talked about the torture of terrorists but I don't recall him discussing the torture of Arabs. Are you saying here that Arabs and terrorists are the same thing? It seems like that's what you just implied.

So Sam,

Torture any Arabs lately? Too bad George the Second took your advice and screwed up our reputation worldwide by doing it. So now that you can see how badly that worked, have you changed your sick stance on torture?

Dear KiplingKat1,

"I seem to remember the Republicans being outraged an accusing Clinton of being "UN stooge" for getting involved in the Balkans."

Right. I do remember that. I also remember the lefties complaining bitterly that Clinton used NATO as the platform for the bombing rather than the UN, and so was being a bad transnational citizen. (Lest we rush to polarize on party lines on this issue I will point out that George the First and his "New World Order" were very, very, transnational.)

In a robust democracy there is always debate and argument, sometimes it is stupid and inhumane.

I also remember seeing pictures of people in Serb concentration camps looking like folks from Nazi camps and wondered why we waited so long; and why so many people normally outraged by such things did not react. We were too slow in my opinion, but Clinton did eventually do the right thing.

"Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing...after they have exhausted all other possibilities."

-- Winston Churchill

Kipling, Part one

"Nice of you to skip over the point about the number of times genocide is not only condoned, but encouraged and demanded by God in the Bible"

I skipped nothing and defended nothing about the Christian Bible. Anyone who prays on the Bible can and should be associated with any criminal acts that are condoned or commanded in the Bible or in the Koran. Worship an ugly book with evil in it and you are associated with the evil in that book. It's your choice. You don't have to worship a book filled with genocidal rantings.

If there are verses in that book that you don't agree with, then take those verses out of that book. Like Jefferson's Bible for example. That would be truly denouncing it. But they won't. Why? Because it is the one true word of the one true God and God will smite them if they touch it. This is the whole problem with these religions. They won't take "death to infidels and gays" out of their books. Denounce it all you like, so long as justification for it remains in the book you pray over, you have not really denounced it, now have you. True denunciation would be to say, "okay, we're editing the Koran and taking out the stuff about martyrdom and death to infidels." But they won't do that. Not even the moderates will ever change one word in that book. So pardon me if I don't sympathize with their plight that they are unfairly associated with behavior that is specifically dictated by the book they pray over 5 times a day.

"Making all Catholic's responsible for the actions of a minority of priests is about as rational and making all Muslims responsible of the actions of Islamic terrorist groups"

Catholics put money into a plate every Sunday that supports an institution that has been caught providing safe haven from the law for child molesters. If you do not disassociate from such a group that has been caught red handed in such horrendous crimes, well then you are associated with them and supportive of them now aren't you.

"While we're at it, let's just hold all whites responsible of the lynchings of Civil Rights era"

All of your analogies are so bad. Like a child's mentality. Skin color is not a choice. You are born with it and can do nothing about having the same skin color as another person. Religion is a choice you make. So you can do something about having the same religion as gay bashers and misogynists and terrorists especially when the book you pray over explicitly condones and commands such actions. You can disavow yourself from such madness and leave the religion. If there are some things you still like about Islam, then edit the Koran to suit yourself and start a new religion. But to keep the same religion and pray over the same book when you disagree with parts of that book is your own problem when people associate you with actions condoned in that book.

Kipling, part two

"All Americans have to abjure being American because we can't possibly associated and "support" a culture that produced a bunch criminals!"

They don't have to abjure. But they should be embarrassed and willing to change in writing the policies that may have caused such a state. All Americans are collectively responsible for their culture. If so many are in prison, Americans should be embarrassed by the policy decisions they have made that might have caused this phenomenon.

"Get a clue: No major religion is one single unified group"

Get a clue. None of them will edit out the bad parts of their books. They all have that in common. They are all responsible for what is in the books they pray over. They all use the same book. If you want to be seen as a different faith, then edit the book. But they won't. And that is why they have no right to whine about being associated with those who pray over the same book, and follow it literally.

"The Muslim community, both American and International has *loudly* decried the actions of al Queda"

Some have. But many cheer al Queda on. There is an endless line-up of recruits and funding and safe haven providers. Endless. As in, no end in sight.

"People do not have to abjure their faith just to satisfy your personal fear and rage over the actions of a tiny minority"

I didn't say they had to abjure. It's their choice. I'm just not listening to their whining about being associated with what is clearly prescribed in the book they pray over. Edit the book if you want to show true denunciation. But they wont. Can you give a good reason why they won't? I'd love to hear it.

timmy2,

Nice of you to skip over the point about the number of times genocide is not only condoned, but encouraged and demanded by God in the Bible. Samuel, Exodus, Deuteronomy, Leviticus, etc.

That one hitting a little too close to home buddy? Yeah, better to argue semantics over the *specific* types of sexual misconduct the Bible condones.

So let me get this straight, you are demanding that Muslims disavow their the terrorism in the Islamic world even more strongly than they already have, yet you are saying they "can't whine" about being in the same overarching religion as member of al Queda.

Make up your mind.

What you are asking is about the same as saying Barak Obama has to personally disavow and yet "can't whine" about being a christian like members of the Westboro Baptist Church.

Making all Catholic's responsible for the actions of a minority of priests is about as rational and making all Muslims responsible of the actions of Islamic terrorist groups. At least you are consistent. While we're at it, let's just hold all whites responsible of the lynchings of Civil Rights era. Hey Timothy McViegh and Ted Bundy! 0.75% of Americans are in prison, the highest population of prisoners in the world. All Americans have to abjure being American because we can't possibly associated and "support" a culture that produced a bunch criminals!

Get a clue: No major religion is one single unified group, every person is an individual and is responsible for their own actions and no one else's (except their kids until they are 18). The Muslim community, both American and International has *loudly* decried the actions of al Queda. People do not have to abjure their faith just to satisfy your personal fear and rage over the actions of a tiny minority.

Calling it a 'ground zero mosque' is *also* a false premise, btw. Is it in sight of Ground Zero? No. If it was, maybe *I'd* still have a problem with it, as I did when I was misled to think it was that way.

It's a couple blocks away.

How many blocks *is* OK? Three? Four? Ten? A borough? Where does that end?

And is this about what people are told it's about?

Kipling,

You need to read both the Koran and the Bible more. While there is nothing in the Bible that explicitly justifies the acts of pedophile priests, there are numerous verses in the Koran and Hadith which explicitly justify the actions of Islamic terrorists.

Furthermore Islamic terrorists declare their actions in the name of Islam by quoting those specific verses, and there are many of them. Pedophile priests to not announce that their actions are in the name of Christianity and would never attempt to quote any scripture that could possibly justify their actions. They know that no such verse exists.

Please stop embarrassing yourself. This analogy is not even in the same arena. The example you might use is homosexuality.

From Deuteronomy
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them"

Any Christian who prays over this book can not whine about being associated with homophobia and gay bashers.

But they do not have to be associated with pedophile priests because there are no words in the book they pray over that justify those particular actions. This is so simple a 2 year old could understand it.

However the doctrine of priestly celibacy is somewhat responsible for what happens to these little boys and the Catholic church's cover up and protection of these priests makes all Roman Catholics somewhat responsible for remaining members of and continuing to support this obviously corrupt institution.

timmy2

You need to read the Bible more. There are scriptures that condone rape (including gang rape), incest, child marriage, polygamy, etc. Not to mention genocide and slavery.

Kipling,

I'm sorry but your analogy fails because there are no scriptures in the Christian Bible that explicitly condone and or command child molestation. However there are scriptures in the Koran and Hadith that explicitly justify the actions of the terrorists.

And no one is telling muslims that they have to leave Islam. They just have to stop whining about being associated with people who are following the scriptures that they willingly choose to worship. If you pray on a book that says "death to infidels" then you are going to be associated with people who kill infidels in the name of the book you pray on.

timmy2

By your rationale, everyone who loathes the child molestation by the minority of catholic priests must leave Christianity and every man must cut of his penis off to repudiate rapists and pedophiles.

I'm sorry, but it doesn't work that way. You don't have to give up your faith just because a small group of jackasses were criminals.

More I read about Ms. Khan's lamentations, and her ilk the more I am convinced that there is no place for their project. Except for the constitutional guarantees in the US. Please read the article hyper-linked below:

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2010/08/malaysia_-_is_it_moderate_and_is_it_modern.html

I want to dare any of the sympathizer of the project to defend this type of moderation, that Ms Khan and her husband bring. It is not enough to mouth moderating homilies in the US, where theye are clearly a minority. What does this couple do with their so called influence n the islamic world. If you ask me, my guess is when they go to the OIC countries nobody give two hoots for them. If they espouse anything condemning what is happening in places like Malaysia, there will be fatwas against them. They are poser in the west and couple of spineless "chicken littles" over there. When we people like me stand up against the so called moderates and label them as enablers of extremists all the sympathizers come out of the wood works. Unless these, they take the stand and condemn these atrocities I have no sympathy for their causes. Their causes are only furthering the interests of islam towards world domination. Unless these US muslims willingly adopt the policy that they will boycott all these countries, including their Haj trips I say they are supporting apartheid. They are no different than teh Afrikaaner governments of south africa before FW De Klerk

You would also do well to read the article written by a fellow Pakistani American who has put it most eloquently on this blog.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2010/08/us_muslims_should_be_american_first.html

Mr Ijaz should be a shining example and role model for muslims living in the non-OIC countries

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Kipling

"The billions of Muslims who get up, go to work, and just want to live their lives and yes, who have vocally condemned terrorism far, far, FAR outweigh the small minority of the Islamic world population who have joined terrorist groups"

And yet the terror continues. Apparently vocalization is just not enough. Sam Harris correctly points out that no one suffers from Islamic Terrorism more than moderate muslims. Speaking out is just not enough and not enough are speaking out. I see the muslims doing nothing to actually stop terrorism, in fact here we have this supposed bridge builder Imam who condemns terrorism but in the same breath puts partial blame for the 911 attacks on the USA. That does not sound like denunciation but rather justification. It's the old, "I denounce terrorism, nudge nudge wink wink."

Being a muslim is a choice. Read the Koran. Justification for all of the actions of the terrorists is printed in black and white. In fact one has to stretch and manipulate to make those words to make them mean anything but what the terrorists are doing and advocating. If you choose to be a muslim, you have chosen an archaic and warring religion filled with hate and condemnation for all those who do not accept the one true word of your supposed God. That is your choice. You are going to get criticized for it in today's modern world and you are going to be lumped in with those who are following the words in the book you worship literally by killing infidels. Deal with it or say, "that's it! I'm not going to associate with Islam anymore."

Religion is a choice. You have to lie in the bed you make. Or you can get out of that bed and go elsewhere. It's your choice. Muslims are not stuck being muslims. They can wise up. Same goes for Christians who do not want to be lumped in with the gay bashers and abortion doctor killers. Justification for all of these things is in the book you worship ignorantly.

Really themoderate?

I seem to remember the Republicans being outraged an accusing Clinton of being "UN stooge" for getting involved in the Balkans.

"You're also no fan of calculators."

A billion = 10^9, not 10^12. There are not a thousand billion (1,000,000,000,000) people in the world. You have a Trillion there, when you were looking for a Billion. So that number should be: 1,000,000,000.

"As a Christian when did you speak out against the atrocity of the Bosnian genocide?"

Just so you know, Bill Clinton is a Baptist, and he bombed the Serbs back into the stone age until they stopped the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia. The vast majority of Americans supported this action. In fact, many people thought we tried to achieve the end of ethnic cleansing by peaceful means for too long before acting.

I think everyone should see this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQVCmoUnyuk

Not to mention the memorials at the Pentagon, Staten Island, the bronze Frieze south of the WTC site dedicated to the firefighters, "Tribute in Light" memorial, the bronze sculpture in New Jersey, the WTC cross. Not to mention memorials around the country like in AZ, TX, and Arlington National Cemetery. Steel from the WTC is being used in the construction of the USS New York. And there are memorials in Israel and England.

I really wish the opposite side of this debate would stop speaking from such screaming ignorance. Really people, all it takes is a little rationality and little internet search.

lixo24,

You are conflating two issues. Based on your line of reasoning journalists generally from local reporters covering PTA's to sports reporters to Fashion WRiters should be compelled to apologize for Helen Thomas's statements; and radio talk show hosts including shock jocks and traffic reporters should be compelled to distance themselves from Dr. Laura's views.

That's a parallel analogy (e.g. people who are affiliated in perhaps the loosest term possible).

With respect to Muslim leaders denouncing the 9-11 attacks, just do a Google search on the term "Muslim Leaders statements against 9-11 attacks" -- you'll find plenty of instances from the Chairman of Saudi Arabia's Supreme Judicial Council to Muslim scholars in the U.S., Canada, and Europe to the General Guide of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt to the Imam of the Al-Azhar Mosque in Egypt and on and on and on. We're literally talking about hundreds of statements by leaders who have influence over millions of people.

People who think that high profile leaders have been silent on this issue are being willfully dense or just extremely lazy. Their statements are not hard to find.

Gee billeisen1, you have not seen the reconstruction plans for the WTC that include a HUGH MEMORIAL?

Go look them up.

Private funds (which have been disclosed, one of which is a Saudi Arabian prince who is also the second largest stockholder in the parent company for Fox News), private property, and what you are suggesting is inherently against the religious freedom this nation was founded on.

So the "memorial" you are suggesting is for the terrorist, who will have succeeded in destroying a fundamental American right by their actions and your fear and rage.

lixo24,

This is why reading the comments is good, becuase several people have already. And in the U.S. they were not slow about it either.

Thank you popular media, for helping to fuel religious bigotry.

TIMMY2 wrote:

"I'm no fan of Christianity, but I would guess that the percentage of Christians who would denounce terrorism in the name of Christianity would be about 99.99%..."

----------

You're also no fan of calculators.

The average of estimates for the world Muslim population is around 1 billion (1,000,000,000,000). Let's apply your 99.99% to that 1,000,000,000,000. Math wasn't my best subject so I'll 'show my work' here. Check it and tell me if I'm wrong.

1,000,000,000,000 x .9999 (99.99%) = 999,900,000,000 (Muslims who renounce terrorism necessary to equal your estimated percentage of Christians who renounce terrorism)

1,000,000,000,000 (all Muslims) - 999,900,000,000 (Muslims who renounce terrorism) = 100,000,000 (Muslims who DON'T renounce terrorism)

Let's compare, shall we?

As related to successful terrorist attacks on US soil (9/11):

(Number of terrorists) = 19

19 divided by 1,000,000,000,000 = 0.000000000019 (.000000000019%)

I'd say that falls within your stated margin of acceptability (bested by a F--k load more).

test~~

I doubt that anyone is still reading this far but here goes:

My thoughts exactly, Sam. Why is it that Helen Thomas and Dr Laura quit their jobs, because enough high level people were offended and denounced some poor choice of *language.* While I may think this a bit too extreme it's informative to note that it got action -- and we're only talking about words; not threats; no actual harm done!

I have no patience for Muslim apologists for terrorism nor Catholic apologists for pedophile priests. These are evil actions that we all must recognize and eradicate from society. If people don't loudly, clearly and continuously agree to denounce such evil then they are supporting such evil.

In this case, all moderate Muslim leaders should make statements like Sam penned above. Can anyone point to even one who has done so??

The true scandal is the millions of Muslim Americans -- and people who simply LOOK "Muslim" who have been harassed, seen their properties vandalized, had friends attacked due to the ignorance of too many Americans.

I had a friend murdered in the South Tower on 9-11 -- I can tell you though he would probably be a lot more upset over the whole reaction to this so-called "Ground Zero Mosque" than he'd care about having some kind of memorial.

The issue here is fundamentally one about religious liberty. Unfortunately, it's also an election year. Amoral demagogues realize that emotional manipulation of the ignorant can be expedient -- especially in a country where a large number harbor fears of Islam, and only about 1 percent of the population identify themselves with the Islamic faith (not even enough to move a statewide election).

It's basically a risk free proposition. By the time the dust settles and the body is discovered they'll be clear out of town.

I have no doubt if there was a net gain in votes by crucifying Christ all over again, Newt and Palin would be at the front of the mob calling for his execution. Fox would give the event 24-7 coverage and repeat ad naseum to its audience how Jesus had it coming. Rush would ditto, ditto.

A few years later the executioners would become the most vocal Christians in the world as the mob moved on to the murder of some other easily targeted minority group.

Yes, the true scandal here is that so called Muslim moderates are so slow to disavow Muslim extremism leading many people to wonder whether Muslim moderation even exists.

Although Imam Feisal Rauf claims to be a moderate, that’s about all he claims. He refuses to disclose the source of the $10 million used to purchase the site near Ground Zero and he refuses to disclose where he expects to get the $100 million needed for construction. I can only assume that the money comes from radical Middle East pro-al Qaeda Muslims that will try to turn the center into a monument for al Qaeda’s successful terrorist attack on 9-11 – an absolute propaganda coup for al Qaeda.

And all this without a memorial to the 3,000 Americans who died on 9-11. And the thousands of more Americans that have died and will die in a war, prompted by 9-11, in an effort to protect Americans, including the Imam and his group, from further terrorism by Muslim extremists.

Unfortunately, President Obama and Mayor Bloomberg haven’t helped by wrongly characterizing the controversy as being about freedom of religion. Their arguments are more properly made to Saudi Arabia where non-Muslim churches are not allowed.

Hispana ignorantly posted:

Why is this site going to use the name of Cordoba, when history clearly shows that muslims build a mosque in Spain just to show that they had conquered this site. Certainly, the symbolism is quite evident. This cleric is by no means a moderate and a full investigation is needed of his activities in the State Department and his fundraising for this mosque. And his wife Daisy Kahn, had unmitigated gall to taunt every american indicating that there is a lot of hatred for muslims in this country.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Before posting such ignorance, go read a history book. Spain was conquered by the Arab armies with pretty large numbers of Jews (and Spanish Christians as well). The Reconquista in Spain was largely with soldiers from outside Spain. Cordoba under Arab rule was a city with Muslims, Jews and Christians living with much greater harmony than anywhere else in Europe. That is the only symbolism of the Cordoba name.

Sorry Timmy2, but that is simply not true.

Academics, organizations, websites, hell, in Jordan in 2005, a conference of hundreds of Islmaic religious leaders declared the Imans of terrorist organizations to be false prophet, basically. Their verison of ex communication.

The Islmaic organizations in American HAVE called for re-assessment of Islamic/Sharia law to do away with the ancient tribalism that has pervaded it, practically in regards to the treatment of women.

And don't forget that the largest Muslim population in the world is not the in the Middle East, but Indonesia.

The billions of Muslims who get up, go to work, and just want to live their lives and yes, who have vocally condemned terrorism far, far, FAR outweigh the small minority of the Islamic world population who have joined terrorist groups.

It's just with news "if it bleeds it leads", so we never hear about them. But as someone said, go Google "Islam Muslim denounce terrorism" and you will come up with hundreds of hits.

They've been saying it the whole time, it's just not message we have been eager to hear over the fear mongering and rage.

timmy2,

Given that religious identity is largely determined by family history, culture, and local influences, it strikes me as a bit of a stretch to say that atheism-agnosticism is synonymous with intelligent and educated. Intelligent and educated people exist in all kinds of different cultures (the converse is equally true).

I've met plenty of educated and intelligent religious skeptics. I've met some pretty stupid and narrow-minded religious skeptics as well. It doesn't follow that "E(ducation) + I(ntelligence) = A{theism)".

timmy2,

99 percent of the American Christian population did not denounce the Mosque bombing in Florida, or the Koran burnings.

More accurately 99.99999 have remained silent.

At a more fundamental level it strikes me as absurd to even legitimize the "you haven't apologized enough for someone else's misdeeds" standard. The whole idea is ridiculous.

Implicitly these "apologize" or "denounce harder" gripes seem to try to argue a degree of association and influence with the renegade party -- or implicit responsibility for their actions -- that simply doesn't exist.

With respect to the original post, the simple fact that the Imam is on yet another out-reach trip on behalf of the U.S. State Dept, strikes me as indication enough about where his sympathies lie.

It seems ridiculous that anyone should have to answer for the actions of Gingrich, Palin, Ailes, or any other manipulators during this particular election season. The only people who should have to answer for the actions of Gingrich, Palin, and Ailes are Gingrich, Palin, and Ailes. A person would be naive to expect an apology or a renunciation of their actions or demagoguery any more than we should expect or even value an apology from Bin Laden.

JPRS

I am not a Christian. I am an intelligent educated person. That makes me an atheist/agnostic. I speak out against all lunacy over the primitive magic sky fairy delusion.

I'm no fan of Christianity, but I would guess that the percentage of Christians who would denounce terrorism in the name of Christianity would be about 99.99%

Can muslims even come close to this number? Clearly not given that there is an endless line up of new recruits and an endless support network of funding and safe haven and aid for Islamic terror organizations.

Timmy2,

As a Christian when did you speak out against the atrocity of the Bosnian genocide? How about the Mosque bombing in Florida, or the Koran burnings proposed in the same state just within the past couple months. Refresh my memory.

KIPLINKAT1

Apparently "a plethora" is not doing the trick.

That is because the "plethora" of young muslims willing to join these terrorists in their Jihad is much greater.

Let us know when you can do better than "a plethora". Actually you won't need to let us know. We'll know you've done better than "a plethora" when the suicide bombings end.

GrantMH

Google almost anything and you'll get 80 pages of results. Of course there are muslims who denounce terrorism. The question is what percentage denounce it, and what percentage who say they denounce it actually denounce it?

It seems to me if the vast majority of muslims denounced terrorist activities in the name of Islam then it wouldn't be such a big problem. Do you know how much money it takes to carry out an operation like 911? Do you know how much help and support and money and cover and housing and training these organizations need?

These terrorists are getting their funding from somewhere? They are getting their cover and being hidden somewhere. They are recruiting new soldiers at an alarming rate (because they are getting killed at an alarming rate). And yet there is an endless line-up it seems to join their campaign.

Clearly not enough muslims denounce it and clearly not enough who do denounce it take any action to show their denunciation of it.

Ask yourself. Why are there no Christian suicide bombers? Why do Christians not riot when the Pope is made fun of in cartoon form every day of the year in newspapers all over the world? Because their faith has modernized.

If Muslims truly denounce terrorism, why won't Imam Rauf speak words similar to what Sam just said above. Not only will he not speak those words or anything like them, he has publicly put partial blame for 911 on America. That doesn't sound like a denunciation of terrorism, it sounds like a justification for it.

I feel bad for the moderate muslims who truly do denounce terrorism, but unfortunately they are in the minority. Even this supposed moderate bridge builder Imam is still making justifications for the most horrendous of terrorist attacks.

All Sam has done is shown himself ignorant of the plethora of moderate voices in Islam voices who already have said this.

Mr. Harris this is a brilliant solution to the dilemma that should be facing Imam Rauf. Of course he most likely will not accommodate the need, but I am sure he understands the implications of his slience.
Isn't is surprising though, as you say. The ".. lacking in candor about the nature of their faith and so slow to disavow its genuine (and growing) pathologies--leading perfectly sane and tolerant people to worry whether Muslim moderation even exists."

Thanks, Sam, for being the shinning light of reason and clear thinking.

Recommenddation for all dissenters and bad mouths: Read this article more than once and it you still don't understand ask for help.

Curmudgeon6

You live up to your name. Sam's piece is forward looking and sensible. Your "bah humbug" attitude is what is not needed. Sam laid out with tolerance and reason the only possible future for Islam.

Are you against the moderation of Islam? Why would you not support what Sam just said? Is it because of things he has said in the past that have irked you so? Sam is looking forward and you are looking backwards. Curmudgeon indeed.

Sam, just stay the he11 out of this one, wouldja? Jeez, you and Dawkins and Hitchens are just about the last voices we need to hear on this. It's already one stinking mess as it is. It doesn't matter whether people in your camp are right or wrong; it's simply a fact that none of you qualifies as any kind of impartial arbiter, peacemaker, or "voice of reason" likely to calm down the side that's being irrational and bigoted.

Yes, yes, muslim moderates have been abyssmally lacking blah, blah blah, go along with all that. But it doesn't help the issue at hand, and it's not especially relevant, except as hindsight.

Why does these white people think someone has to always shuck and jive to please them? Newsflash Sam Harris: no one has to bump and grind to your tune to please you. No one has to "speak up". If your bigoted behind can't figure out right and wrong for your own damned self, then F U.

"Well, to the commentators saying the many times that muslims have disavowed the terrorist acts of 09/11, I say where is the evidence? We have not seen much of this.

It will be wise if muslims start to come forward and disavow these terrorist acts and take a vocal pro-active approach in rejecting these elements within their culture.

And allegiance to the USA and our values need to be shown!"

---------

This claim is getting tiresome. Of course you won't find the evidence you seek living on a steady diet of FOX propaganda. You don't have to find "evidence" in the media, just get to know some actual Muslims in your local community and you'll find it there, right under you upturned, flared nostrilled nose. Still, there is plenty of "evidence" of the kind you seek in the media.

This will be the 3rd or 4th time I've offered the following in response to the above regurgitated falsehood, so I know some of the people who say they can't find any evidence on the WaPo comments section are outright lying, or too lazy to type a few words into a text field.

Google, "Muslims denounce terrorism" and you'll find in excess of 80 pages of links for that specific wording on that particular search engine. Do the same on youtube and prepare yourself for a rather lengthy stay in front of the computer trying to view all the posts. Anyone who says they haven't seen proof the greater Muslim population rejects terrorism by now is not only failing to look for that evidence, they have tightly shut their eyes to it.

Now show us evidence that conservatives denounce Islamophobia, homophobia, xenophobia, and embrace truth and reason and live up to the standards of compassion in their own belief systems—that would be a much more impressive and difficult task to accomplish.

The US needs more religious people (muslim immigrants) like I need pimples on my ass.

this Jealously Deleted, but Faithfully Reposted: Aye. --- Correction of Sin's: Saudi Arabousia's invaded "ZOROASTRIAN" PERSIA" 637 CE/AD. and Mass Murdered [HOLOCAUST] Them. Not ex-Pagan ishlami Iranians.

Note: Persia had A Real MONO-THEO Religion/Faith/Belief but turned into another MONO-THEO Belief/Religion/Faith??

FACT: Abrahamic-ISLAMi or Abrahamic ESAUi includes ALL, EVERY & ANY, Abrahamics (includes MORMON) and VEDICs Systems a "POLY-THEO" Systems in Fact!

This is Today's Biggest LIE! {imagining, yet Denying that Ishlami & or Abrahamics & Vedics competing, for some gods names, and gods Heaven, Hells or in-betweens Worlds, or Faith-SYSTEM(s) are POLY-THEO Religions; and ZERO Mono-Theo!}.

PS: There is NO Such an Animal [Religion] Today, on Earth, as be 'True' (opposite MYTH) MONO-THEO. All are in fact POLY-THEO: Soo,

Pleazza World; Don't DO-n-then-DENY, nor Deny to selves this REVEALation. aye!?

Pssst, Secret (opposite Reveal): Only the A-P-O-C-A-L-Y-T-i-C Religion via "EKLAH"t, aka "SOURCE-ONE/EK/UNO.." aka "IT" (never some HE or a SHE god(s)). And the Best part is; is The "IT" Religion/Faith/Belief is "MADE-in-AMERIK" for Amerik's 1st & then the Rest of the World/Continents 2nd!

iMagine, The "RELiGION of Everything, before, the SCiENCE of Everything"? Guess What? WE[i] art COME!

Behold the "MELCHIZEDEK" 'PEACE BLESSING', thus reversing the Drunkin Racist-NOAH/Abrahamic & Arjuna-Ramma/Vedic 'WAR BLESSING's! PS: Stupid People are Dangerous, even when (pre-Apocalyptically) Educated!

GOODBYE: Mr. ZEUS. Goodbye OSIRIS/SETH. Goodbye Mr. MOSES, Mr. VYASA, Mr. GAUTAMA, Mr. JESUS, Mr. MUHAMMAD, Mr MORONi etal!. WHEREFORE:

Help Celebrate the Great out-Door/Indoor annual Burnings of the cursed/sin'th (un) Holy Infixus-Books on Earth; a/k/a the Evil/Kali/Jinn'd Chumash//Bibles/BkofMormon, Geeta//Gita's, Tangyurs//Kangyurs, QURANs/Korans etal!

HELLO; to Our "O.U.R." Book {O.ne U.niversal R.eligion [INNATE] System; never again Man-Made JEALOUS Religion; Systems}. Yes; the "ULTRA-PARATESTAMENT" is (the Deliverance after the "SUPREME-Paratestament") Here 2010; which Started 1969-70 & which will end 2024/25; as foretold in ALL ye/Yo's iNfixUS-Books mentioned Above. This is our O.U.R.{for Apocalyptarian's only} real Story. O' Jealousy! Originally POSTED BY: WOODSTOCK-41 | AUGUST 25, 2010 12:29 PM.

Jealously Deleted at MANSOOR IJAZ & CO. but Faithfully Reposted: aye?
.
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. CREDIT to "JJ" ..@.. http://onwapo.com

Originally POSTED BY: WOODSTOCK-41 | AUGUST 25, 2010 11:50 AM.

I find this to be a fundamentally interesting debate. Most cultures have evolved with religiosity as a pillar or foundation of their psyche. After one appreciates that this pillar/foundation is in itself a manifestation of natural human inquiry, then one understands that Religion is a de-novo belief system, and like all others, has serious faults.

Religion has played great roles (both positive and negative) throughout history, and it mustn’t be allowed to sway populations towards division and hate. I believe that an evolving humanity should look at religion and appreciate it for what it is and has been. Humanity is not God, and therefore the answers to this inquiry cannot be equal to such a concept. Moreover, we have not come up with all the answers, and therefore any interpretation of a manuscript that suggests such is wrong. In fact, our inquiry has hopefully left us with more questions….that is OK and also healthy.

If one wishes to explore the depths of the mind through religious inquiry, then I would hope it is done in such a way as one would explore any other human product (Philosophy, Mathematics, Medicine, Physics, Music, Art, Language, Government, Economics, etc…) – and that is with the intent of growth through healthy skepticism…… I’m not sure this answers the question on whether or not to build the Mosque, but if it is to be built, it should clearly represent a movement towards Peace, Collaboration, and Acceptance. If it cannot do that, then build a Library.

I'm tired of pundits who've not taken two hours to research what Muslim leaders have said about terrorism or Al Qaeda telling the rest of us what they Muslims should say.

It raises the general level of suspicion. It suggests Muslims are weak on terrorism - implying that maybe some of them even are sympathetic to the terrorists?

If that's not bigotry, it sure contributes fuel to the fires of bigotry.

Sam Harris, sit down and shut up.

Hispania, the fact that we are having this debate indicate that this country is far from "united" in protest against this building.

Secondly, WTC is not "Holy Ground", there is a strip club and a bookies within the same radius as the proposed community center.

Third: It is their land. Refusing a citizen of the U.S. the right to build what they want on their land because of their religion is directly in violation of the principles this nation was founded on. Meaning if we forbid the building of Park 51, the terrorists will have been completely successful in their drive to destroy the American way of life.

Fourth: I tried to post links to all the evidence, the papers by Islamic academics, the web pages of Islamic groups condemning terrorism, the one article that mentioned the large religious conference in Jordan in 2005 that outlawed the Imans of terrorist organizations, but my post was rejected because of those links.

It's out there, but no one in the media has been paying attention.

Jealously Deleted but faithfully; Reposted:

Fact: O S A M A - B I N - L A D E N is DEAD! Since Summer 2007! Note: Ishlam is NOt Made nor for AMERIK(s), aka Apocalyptarian-Umah.! It's Imported religion. And the Others too.

"Satanic VersUS" lovin "ELDERS of AL-TAQIYAH" Ummah of Ishlami's//Esauami's wanted "A-T-T-E-N-T-i-O-N", so Lets giv'em Attention! The kind of 'attention' that's louder than a bomb; or more destructive then Arabous-Hijacked-Planes smashing into KAFIR-Built, Kafir-Genius (zero Ishlami's) Sky Scrapers!

Note: This is NOt a Cartoon; IT is more that That. REMEMBER: The Kaaba Will Be Destroyed If Muhajeen/Talibandits & Ummah do NOt Stop their (un) Holyi War against KAFIR's! G_D (if any) hath No Patience?

REVEALATiON: The Ground under Kaaba at Mecca Saudi Arabousia Landa Will be swallowed-up IF not adhere the Apocalyptarians Warning! ELSE Soon soon very soon. O' Ishlami, Esauami, Sufiami Ummah & Co; STOP the Killing; or Else. LAST CHANCE [Before this 9.11.2010]. REPENT: O' King ABDULLAH of Saudi Arabousia & Wahhabi-Bi's & Ayatollah's Ummah: Announce to The World; That ISHLAMi's are SORRY; for what their (Ye/Yo) so-called "Magnificent-19" Martyr's Hath Done (knowingly or Unkowingly) on 9.11 (includes Befor n After). soo, Make Genuine Peace with Israel; NOt Wild Palestinian/Cannanites/Gazaites et al!

RECOMMENDATION: AEGYPT (before the Great & wise Pharaoh, Prez, Sir/Mr. Brother Hosni Mubarak dies); Should re-ABSORB or re-own "GAZA" (like Pre-1967) and merge/annex into Sinai 'Al Arish' landa. Because Jordon will be majority Pali's in 20 Years, therein. Then "Healing of Nations", Genuine World-Peace, Love & Dance will be realized. Else NO!

Fact: During 632 CE/AD (Same Year Mr. muHAM-MAD died; via Poison Lamb meat by a [his] enslaved Jewess-Concubine, who's Husband and Family & Friends Muhammad & Co. murdered/plundered) That the SAUDi Arabou's Invaded Pagan Worshiping BAALite GAZAn's & forced them 'Wild' folk to convert to Ishlami's! Then in 637 CE/AD the Arabous Saudi's, with help from converted Wild Gazan-ites (Canaanites called PALi'S today) Plundered and Diaspora'd JERUSALEM; then Pagan PERSIA around also. And in 691 CE/AD AL AQsa Caliphate Dome was Built in JERU!

REVEALation (opposite Secret): TODAY and For Most People: Pre-Apocalyptic Religion {Abrhamic and or Vedic Systems} are POiSON! Like Drunks, going Wild. This is what [i]WE (Apocalyptic-ON's) are up against (Pre Apocalyptic-Off's); their "Religio-Jealousy-Psychos's & Pre-Apocalyptic-SINdromes", not to mention, "Double/Triple Standards Psychos"s etc..
-POSTED BY: WOODSTOCK-41 | AUGUST 25, 2010 11:38 AM. Guest; MONSOUR IJAZ

Great post, but Christianity is still promoting man's inhumanity to man too.

Well, to the commentators saying the many times that muslims have disavowed the terrorist acts of 09/11, I say where is the evidence? We have not seen much of this.

It will be wise if muslims start to come forward and disavow these terrorist acts and take a vocal pro-active approach in rejecting these elements within their culture.

And allegiance to the USA and our values need to be shown!

I find this to be a fundamentally interesting debate. Most cultures have evolved with religiosity as a pillar or foundation of their psyche. After one appreciates that this pillar/foundation is in itself a manifestation of natural human inquiry, then one understands that Religion is a de-novo belief system, and like all others, has serious faults.

Religion has played great roles (both positive and negative) throughout history, and it mustn’t be allowed to sway populations towards division and hate. I believe that an evolving humanity should look at religion and appreciate it for what it is and has been. Humanity is not God, and therefore the answers to this inquiry cannot be equal to such a concept. Moreover, we have not come up with all the answers, and therefore any interpretation of a manuscript that suggests such is wrong. In fact, our inquiry has hopefully left us with more questions….that is OK and also healthy.

If one wishes to explore the depths of the mind through religious inquiry, then I would hope it is done in such a way as one would explore any other human product (Philosophy, Mathematics, Medicine, Physics, Music, Art, Language, Government, Economics, etc…) – and that is with the intent of growth through healthy skepticism…… I’m not sure this answers the question on whether or not to build the Mosque, but if it is to be built, it should clearly represent a movement towards Peace, Collaboration, and Acceptance. If it cannot do that, then build a Library.

The WTC area is not "sacred ground," Muslims have as much right to build there as anyone else, and the whole controversy has been manufactured to influence the November elections. By contributing to it Sam does a disservice to the cause he thinks he's defending.

====================================
Sorry, but I totally disagree with your comment on Ground Zero. You totally forget that OUR COUNTRY was attacked on 09/11 by evildoers, many people took to their deaths by jumping from the 2 buildings and we saw them. Further, to this date, many bodies have not been recovered. On this date, Ground Zero became a national shrine and the great majority of americans respect this site as well as all the families who are still suffering and mourning this event.

For those that are running to feel sorry and feel that the muslim community is a victim, I say show me how sorry you are for the deeds caused by some in your culture. To this date, any statements and clear message from the muslim community in this country, is almost non existent. And that could explain why there is a great degree of concern and skepticism by many in this country concerning this mosque. There is much that the muslims need to do to atone for this savage attack and until then they will encounter resistance. Surely they have availed themselves of all of our liberties and used them to their advantage, but where is their coming forward and learning to respect and put USA first?

People in this country are UNITED and have voiced their opinion concerning respecting the Ground Zero site and why do we continue to see the liberal pundits push this issue. The MAJORITY has spoken and that should be final.

I wonder about the real reason for the building of this mosque. This cleric and his wife and developers should have understood that this act was entirely provocative and it will cause an uproar. Why is this site going to use the name of Cordoba, when history clearly shows that muslims build a mosque in Spain just to show that they had conquered this site. Certainly, the symbolism is quite evident. This cleric is by no means a moderate and a full investigation is needed of his activities in the State Department and his fundraising for this mosque. And his wife Daisy Kahn, had unmitigated gall to taunt every american indicating that there is a lot of hatred for muslims in this country. No, my friend. It is not hatred but skepticism and questions for the muslims in this country, their allegiances and we question their intents. Is next going to be the introduction of burkas and Sharia law in our country? Is that what the liberals in this country want?

My friends, it is time to protect our country and we should open our eyes.

Hey Sam,

There is no more worthless thing in this world than a free advice. Imam Faisal Rauf has no obligation to tow the line of an Athiest bigot who compares Islam, a religion of 1.5 billion people, to a death cult.

So thanks but no thanks, if your criticisms were also directed at those hatemongers in the Republican Party who are now comparing Islam to Nazi'ism then maybe we would have considered you credible. As of now, none of your points are worth responding to.

Wow. I am extremely disappointed that my comment which pointed out the number of times the moderate core of the Islamic faith has disavowed and condemned terrorist acts, to the point of a religious council held in Jordan in 2005 which outlawed Iman's of terrorist organizations, was rejected while a Revelation-ist rant was accepted for to be posted.

The fact that the media refuses to give any attention to moderate Islam when it does do something has created the ignorance that such a voice exists in that religion.

It idea that someone must abjure their religion to satisfy the majorities demand for compliance...well, it's sort of like making Jews line up to spit on the Torah, isn't it?

It is sad the Washington Post allows this type of articles! I blame our media for this bogoted issue to appear in the public arena in the first place.

Even though hundreds and thousands of Muslims spoke out against the mass killings of 911 or any senseless murders before or thereafter - our media always projected the negatives more and more and more. Now we have a brainwashed populace who is bigoted by some specific passages in quran and Islam and completely ignorant about the peace that regulates 1.5 billion pepole's daily life!

If we stay ignorant of these facts, we will ruin the foundation of our nation as what is USofA without our religios freedoms!

RC

Sam Harris' entire opus is based on the fact that cherrypicking fools people.

Thank you, at last an honest voice. The two adages, "fools go where angels dare to tread" and "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" comes to mind. Daisy Kahn's cookies and milk view of her project was so naive as to be dangerous. And her statementon This Week (abc) about the hatred of Moslems showed a complete failure of insight. The jihadists who are mass murderere are the ones who are harming her religion not the families and friends of the victims of 9/11.

An excellent, eloquent article by Sam Harris.

I would only add to Harris's statement:
"Find an imam who will speak this way, and gather followers who think this way,..." that these imams and followers who "speak this way" in both Arabic and English.

There are too many examples of so-called "moderate" Muslims saying one thing to the western world and something very different to the Muslim world.

"While the scriptures of Judaism and Christianity also contain terrible passages, it has been many centuries since they truly informed the mainstream faith."

The implication that Islamic terrorists do 'inform the mainstream faith" of Islam is false. Roughly a billion people practice Islam. If violent terrorist tendencies "truly informed" around a 6th of the world's population, most of this planet would be a crispy burnt cinder by now. Maybe that false claim was made as a pretext to dismiss the following short list of Christian terrorist groups:

outside the US:

IRA, National Liberation Front of Tripura, Iron Guard, Russian National Unity, Lord's Resistance Army,

in the US:

KKK, Army of God, Lambs of Christ, Concerned Christians, Scott Roeder, Hutaree

Should every Christian pastor who fails to end their sermons by denouncing these organizations have their silence taken as a sign of endorsement?

Oooppssa Last time: The Apocalyptarian's meaning for, "Infixus-Books" means:

Their so called {Man-Made & or as if their god(s) made; never our G_D (if any) given/innate SYSTEMs} as imagined via their "Chumash's//Bibble"s, "Geeta's//Gita"s, "Tangyur's/Kangyur"s & "Quran's//Koran"s, Includes Wannabe Pagan's etc. NOt our thinkers.

HA! Talk'n bout "WMD" (Weapons of [un)Mass Mutual Destruction)!?? They art tools or mean to pretextilly inflict & or JEALOUSLY perpetrate "HUMAN WRONG(s) via godly(less) JEALOUSY against our HUUMATE-RiGHT(s)"!

They, Ishlami's & CO. are Pre-Apocalyptarians, and We, "Naturally-Chosen" (not gods chosen people) art Apocalyptarian's. This is the 'DiVIDE' [= PELEGian prophecy]! Until Earthlings 'UNiTE' [= JyOKTANian Prophecy]!

Remember; never Forget: That The "Religion Of Everything, before, the Science of Everything" is Now upon Us for the EKLAHt-i-ON's, not OFF's On this bless'th, never Sin'th, never Curs'th Holyi-S.pace S.hip Earth(s)! Also known as the "PEACE-BLESSING"s of thee AquariUS-Age [NEW] Era/Epoch born'th (in Miracle) from their Old (sin days)!. Note: IT has NOthing to do with any pre-apocalyptic Hororscopes/Astrology superstupidstitions. Only Pure EQUONOX's Precession Awareness of the Alignment-Age(s) thus magestically & holyilly Space-Forthing US & Future-Bounding US (Apocalyptarian's Nationals) aka "Automatic Born Citizens/Denizens" of S.S.Earth(s). Soo, maybe YE/YO Human-kids & Family are Born in some Pre-Apoacalyptic Sin/Curse storys; But Never Our Apocalyptic seeing/thinking Holyi-Cosmic-FEELING Huumate-Kids & Folks!

The AbraHAMmy & the VedicHAMmy's, "Infixus-Books" (NO Exception), are Born/Conceived during the Pre-Apocalyptic "WAR BLESSING"s epochs/Era's of the PISces-Age.

History is OUR JURY. Amazing, NO Grace!

Hailaluya-yo! Praise the "HOLYi-NO-MON//WOM". Thank "IT" [Eponymous EKLAHt, a/k/a "IT" which WE[i] know'th in Fact, to be NOt a HE nor any SHE, aye!].

Oooooppps. Meant, ".. Secretly-Building a Monument [the planned Ishlami CULTture/SECTtion Center) for the Ishlami-Ummah's "MAGNIFICENT 19"(+) of the Ishlami//Esaumi beloved Martyr's {pbu Them?}. So

WE [i] KAfir Ummah, are Openly celebrating 1-Decade the 911 Calamity {pbu them//victims, never the 19+}; While the Sunni, Shiia n Sufi Ummah are Silently Celebrating the, "Touched [America] by Islami's" debacle (911 Bombers). Please see the 911-Perpetrator's secret & open Sponsors/Admire'rs here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_of_the_Islamic_Conference

iMportanto: "DO NOT GIVE ANY CHARITY" to any Uranium-Rich (poor?) sneaky Ishlami Nation of Pakistan/Afghani's Ummah or Any of the "ORGANIZATION of ISLAMIC CONFERENCE" [OIC] members States. They Need To Barter For Food or Any Humanitarian-Aide via U.S.A. & or U.N.. Soo; NO URANIUM in exchange Pakistan, Then no [Kafir] Honey!

FACT: Together the [OIC} is Richer than United-Europe & United-States & CO., And They [secretly] Know This Truth (opposite Myth) silently between themselves. aka ISHLAMi's & or ESAU'Mi's). So

me "My Fellow (Naive n Dumb?) American"s & Coalitions (except for Neo-Nazi Islami-Turkishstani's un-Armed 1200+ Forces, Libya-ites & Co). Soo

LET the International "OIC" (2nd United Nations; but built on their ya ALlah; not our O.U.R. G_D.) fend for themselves. Soo

NO more Mr. & Ms nice GUY or GAL! It is TiME!

RECOMMENDATION: Eliminate the Satanic versUS lovin "ARAB LEAGUE" (from Pre 1947/1048; created during the old 'League Of Nations" era). And Look towards the "OIC" instead. A.L. is just another, redundant, trouble making (unnecessary) self-Aggrandizement Institution that needs to be Absorbed into O.I.C.! See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_League

Let Islam-Ummah Take Care of Their Own non-Kafir Brothers//Sisters & Gang. It has come to this Prophetically. This is our "THE-ViSION" for the-'Promis'ed (not Land) but "REFRESHING", as writtenly (Freudianly) in All Ye/Yo' Pre-Apocalyptic "iNfixus-Book"(s).

HARK; A great "Freudian-Slip Of Genuine Prophecy"; O' Sweet Sweet America, thou needest less-Freedom, NOt more. Soo, YE/YO ALL ain't seen noth'n yet!

This is the Reason why WE[i] keep getting bombed [i.e., the Pearl of Great Harbor calamity & Pearl of Great Manhattan calamity]. Soo Freedom in "U.S.A., U.S.A...." should, like when Uncle-Sam & Aunt-Liberty have to tighten their own Economic Belts, includes isolation in some cases if need be, tighten Freedom, and yes, loose Lips, their Security-Belts, so to spake'th the slip'th.!

SECRET: Opposite REVEALation & the TRUTH (opposite MYTH) THAT; In Secret, what The "ELDER'S of AL TAQIYAH" and their International "Religio Police" [from Ishlami-CENTER's of MECCA/RIYADH/TEHRAN..] and their Al Taqiyah ventriloquist Agents (like Immam king Feisal & his Immam Queen KHAN) are secretly/stealthily

Building a-Monument (Reversed Auschwitz like. a Secret un spkoken dedication, by moving closer to WTC, aka Ground-Zero) To Their 'Beloved' "911 Hijackers/Perps", aka "MAGNIFICENT 19(+? Martyrs, destoyers of WTC's) instead. AND

Because on "R.O.I." (Return On Investment} These "Agent's Of AL TAQiYAH" (Feisal/Khan & Ummah) will Become [iShlam-i/Esau-mi] TOURIST RICH" [post Fatal Attraction]" and is expected to break even in less than 5 Years.? SUMMARY:

1) America Needs to Be Tighten on their National "Security-Belt", not only their Spending etc. AND

2) Ishlam-Ummah Is Building a Secret-Monument to their 'Beloved' MAGNIFICENT-10(+?), believing that in the ishlami invoked Current Controversy's {mass Mosque Buildings in KAFIR America] AND

3) TOURISM [Ishlami Ummah Attraction, or a secret REMEMBRANCE] is big BIZ {Wind Fall} more for Ishlami's Residing in Sweet Sweet (never SOUR) Amerik or N.Y.C. et al than the Bloomberg Admin in NYC or its [KAFIR; non-Ishlami Ummah's] inhabitants there in/at!!!

PS: The International, not Only in Kafir U.S.A & in Kafir-Friendly's iSHLAMI//ESAUi Ummah (Community) here TODAY (The Apocalypse & Holyi Transitional times): that Instead of Abrahamic Judeo-Yahudi's (JU's) asking the Question, "WHY DOES THE WORLD HATE US?" that

ISHLAMI's (non-Kafirs) must instead, finally, ask "WHY DOES THE WORLD" [suddenly] HATE US?" Note: DENIAL KiLL's not only the self but others.

Vote: THEOCRACY & MONARCHY must be Destroyed off the Face of, this bess'th (zero Cursed/Sin) NEBULA-BUILT, Holyi S.pace-S.hip Earth, aka S.S. GEOiD, S.S. GAiA, S.S. TELLUSng something; Because,

Cause; Then there will be No-More Use for Atomic-Bomb(S) or Threat from such; unlike today! "YES WE CAN!" (Note; this phrase hath nut’n to do with ye buddy; current Prez; B. H. OBAMA). Soo, WE[I] Can & ironically He Can’t.

Please See: "LET Bokshish [Beggars of the 'Vanguard Of Islam'?] PAKISTAN EAT-URANiUM"

Compliments "J J": http://www.onwapo.com/

This article is right on. Particularly relevant is the sentence: "While the scriptures of Judaism and Christianity also contain terrible passages, it has been many centuries since they truly informed the mainstream faith." I specifically thought about the Spanish Inquisition or our own Salem Witchcraft trials as good historical examples. You would be hard pressed to find any Christians today, no matter how fundamental or radical, that would support a return to those environments. This is the real difference between Islam and the other world's religions. Muslims of America: Are you listening?

Maybe this guy just doesn't feel like he has to justify his religion, what with the Constitution guaranteeing his right to practice it as he sees fit.

And maybe he's seen that any statement he makes will be twisted anyway. Witness the brouhaha about his 'refusal to condemn Hamas'.

Anyone even vaguely familiar with moderate and progressive Islam knows that it's political suicide to condemn Hamas. So why bite off that massive political suicide unnecessarily, when Hamas has nothing to do with your mission.

I'm all for this guy justifying his mosque.

Right after every single church in the US does the same.

And right after I get to vote on whether that church can remain in existence.

Sam Harris did not go far enough in suggesting what Imam Rauf should say. Here is what Rauf should tell his followers:

My dear brothers and sisters in the Islamic faith

1. Islam was a remedy that Muhammad tried to give Arabic society for what he perceived to be the ills of Arabic society in the 7th century.

2. The Quran is not the word of God but that of Muhammad and whoever helped write the Quran. The Quran is mostly inapplicable for today's Muslim societies and here is what we must do. We do not have to rewrite the Quran.

a. We must rewrite Muslim laws that discriminate against women and non-Muslims. For example we must ban the beating up of wives for disobedience to their husbands as advised by Muhammad in verse 4:34.

b. We must allow non-Muslims to preach their religion to Muslims freely in Muslim countries and we must allow those Muslims who do not wish to continue to be Muslims to leave Islam and even become agnostics and atheists and freely preach their non-belief to Muslims.

c. We must allow non-Muslims to freely build their place of worship in all countries dominated by Muslims including in Mecca and Medina.

d. Until we give freedom of religion to non-Muslims we cannot demand freedom of religion in non-Muslim countries. We must put the Cordoba Mosque in NYC on hold until non-Muslims get full freedom of religion in Muslim countries.

e. We must boycott the hajj until full freedom of religion is allowed in Saudi Arabia. By doing the hajj while Saudi Arabia practices the apartheid against non-Muslims we are showing our support to Saudi Arabia. We waste $10 billion or more every year on the hajj. Instead let us use the money to educate our young Muslims in secular way so that they can become a productive section of modern societies.

I urge that all Muslims put the Cordoba mosque on hold until the majority of Americans support the mosque.

As an nonreligious liberal who agrees with Sam Harris, I think "agaudio" makes the best articulation of the counterargument from a liberal point of view that I've seen in a while. But "agaudio" is ultimately wrong for precisely the reason that people don't have a "knack" for "moderating their personal behavior in light of the dictates illogical belief systems." They really can't adhere to the immoral dictates of illogical belief systems "without being disagreeable." It just seems that way because we in America are so immersed in their morally upside-down world that we barely know which way is up. If you travel back and forth between Sweden and the U.S., as I recently did, you'll see that Americans don't have much "knack" for this at all.

If "agaudio" thinks condemning Muslims to death for apostasy, banning stem cell research, harassing those who wish to teach sex education or advocate the use of condoms, engaging in fence-sitting about gay rights (like Clinton's "don't ask, don't tell" and Obama's opposition to gay marriage), tolerating child rape from priests, and so on are "not disagreeable," then he's right. But personally, I find them VERY disagreeable and I'm utterly fed up with that kind of backwardness.

bloggersvilleusa
I agree. I'm sure you will agree that a planning application should be awarded to build a gay awareness centre and womens battered refuge centre next door to the mosque as it would be legal. In other words, ' end of story' to paraphrase those of us who don't want to dig too deep in constructive criticism. There is no reason to build them there but I just feel like it and it is my right.

It must be fun to come up with a fantasy statement you'd like to hear someone else say. Here's the one I wish Sam Harris would make:

"It's well known that I'm not a fan of most religions, especially Islam. There are many things that I dislike about the teachings found in the Koran and the Hadith, and many so-called Islamic states and Islamic organizations who espouse philosophies that I find abhorrent. However, I also realize that people have a knack for moderating their personal behavior even in light of the dictates of illogical belief systems. While I would prefer to see no new religious-oriented building near Ground Zero, or anywhere else for that matter, I also recognize that trying to exclude and alienate a group of moderate believers, whether through legal maneuvers or vitriolic mob intimidation, is counterproductive. I realize that persuading people to give up irrational belief systems in favor of reason and scientific understanding requires a level of discourse that can only be achieved through the accommodation of those who may disagree with us, but who can do so without being disagreeable. With these thoughts in mind, I find that I must choose between a community center that includes a mosque run by a liberal, pro-American Sufi imam, and mobs of misinformed and/or bigoted protestors who seek to stop the project by any means at their disposal. Given the stakes, it is not enough to espouse constitutional rights in the abstract, but to directly support the development of the Park51 center at its planned location. Allowing majority votes to dictate the actions of cultural minorities, or unruly mobs to bully and coerce then for no good reason would not only damage any attempt at dialog with the Muslim communities in America and the world, it would bode poorly for those six or so percent of Americans like myself who are atheist."

Wow... that was fun. Consider the above free for use without license, Sam.

Wow, Sam really SAID something here. It is phenomenal to me how many people are bringing up "Christianity" as a kind of diversion from the thrust and meaning of his article. The historical atrocities committed in the name of "Christianity" arent being denied, they simply aren't what this article is about. It's more than a little disturbing the way my friends on the left keep throwing up roadblocks (like cries of "racism") as a diversion from what really DOES need to be dealt with. Especially in light of the fact that the core values of the left are what's at stake here. Thank you Sam!

While it's a little more artfully-worded above, you're basically asking Imam Rauf to say: "Various tenets of our religion are wrong. Christianity and Judaism are better religions than Islam, and by and large Muslims are stupider than the followers of those other religions." I have a feeling he's not going to say that, and frankly, I'm not gonna blame him for failing to do so.

I am floored that come commenters on here are implying Sam should have written about something more important. Are you that blind that you can't see there are almost always things more important than whatever topic you are talking about now? If we followed that 'reasoning', we'd never talk about anything.

"The project is legal to build, and it should remain legal. That does not mean, however, that any concern about building a mosque so close to ground zero is synonymous with bigotry."

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Yes it is. And Rauf doesn't owe you or anyone a "litmus test" nor a "message". The only thing Rauf has to sign is the title deed. Done.

We've been handing al Queda anti-muslim propaganda since way before 9/11. Muslims have been hated by us ig'nant Amerkins for decades. I have a friend (Pakistani) whose throat was cut the day after Oklahoma City. (Thank goodness he lived)
And then after 9/11, a war in Iraq for no reason to kill hundreds of thousands of civilians is a pretty damn good reason to recruit anti-American warriors if you ask me. Heck, if I was a Muslim and lived in Iraq I'd be really pissed at America too.
Wait...Now that I think about it, I'm an American, and an athiest and even I'M really pissed at America right now!

Regarding religion-inspired violence and related current events, I am continually amazed and dismayed that society's leaders and the mainstream media do not acknowledge the elephant in the room: Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and every other religion containing supernatural elements were invented by our primitive ancestors to explain mysteries that are now understood by science.

Human society's refusal to acknowledge this now-known fact perpetuates the senseless human suffering, including acts of terrorism, born of senseless religious intolerance and hatred.

The long-term solution (decades) is science education, leading eventually to public understanding that the world is not flat, no gods exist, and there is no afterlife – there is, as astronomer Carl Sagan famously said, "not a shred of evidence" for even the most basic religious tenets, which can only be believed by suspending reason and replacing it by blind, unthinking faith.

Most religions that have existed are now extinct, having no modern-day believers; unfortunately, modern ones (those invented within the last 2000 years) are especially virulent, owing to current technologies for doing violence and for mass communication of their messages.

In the short term (years, optimistically), our best hope for world peace and prosperity is the courage of a critical mass of science-knowledgeable opinion leaders and the media to cease the cowardly political correctness of lending credence to religion and its spokespersons by pretending that their nonsensical pronouncements have any basis in fact. How should a responsible journalist respond to a person in high office who seriously claims Santa Claus is real? Sadly, I hold out little hope that our leaders will rise to this moral challenge.

Mr Harris you should be worrying about America's economy, record plunge in housing, joblessness and the economic effects of our 9 year long wars on terror rather than a prayer center in New York.
But then the lovers of war don't want to talk about the economic cost of endless wars. They want to whip up anger and fear.

keith1111,

I spent lot of time in the Balkans during the wars of the 90s, and I can assure you that quite a lot of killing in the name of Christianity went on there. I personally have numerous friends whose family members were murdered that way.

Being Northern Irish on one side, I can also tell you there was quite a lot of it going on there, too, not all that long ago. And although I haven't yet been to Nigeria, I understand there's quite a lot of it going on there today, even as I type this.

You may not take my post seriously, but why would anyone take a post like yours cavalierly dismissing murder in the name of religion as anything other than demented nihilism?

Sam is way way to soft on Christianity here. There has been plenty of terrorism in the name of JC.
And Oh please, to the commenter with the link that called anti-Muslims racists, I went to the article and its not journalism. Its fraudulent and libel to say: "the only thing they know about the religion is that most Muslims are dark skinned Arabs." Everyone knows they are required to pray 5 times a day so moderation is far less likely, and women are forced to spend their life in a cloth bag which creates an entirely different society, to call people racists for protesting this is so utterly irresponsible and wrong that you shouldn't be a journalist. And saying "who cares?" if Obama is a Muslim? You are so clueless about the ramifications I can't fathom it. Religious people of all stripes want their practices to be the norm. The Muslims fight for sharia law in Europe as I write. Are you ready to dress American women that way? Who cares right?

Right, but... I have very similar fears about other religions. Your statement about Christians is not entirely correct. There is plenty of hatred emanating from Christian sources. We just assume that they are not mainstream... are we right? When the military is forcing people to attend evangelical rock concerts! Wow. Very weird, illegal and frightening.

Mr. Harris your article while it hits the proverbial nail. However, the chances of Imam Rauf uttering anything remotely close to your suggestion has a probability of 0%. Because the moment he utters anything remotely close to that he will denounced roundly by every semi-literate mullah & imam from Rabaat to Jakarta. That is the problem with every so called moderate. The difference Messers Itzajob & RFKactionfront between Islam and any other religion is, while other religions also have their share of nut-jobs like islam, there are plenty of moderates who are unafraid to call the nut-jobs on the carpet. So it is disingenuous on your part to claim false equivalency between the religions. Look at the likes of Ayan Hirsi Ali & Irshad Manji who are vilified by the extremist with complete abetting by the so called moderates.

Itzajob,

"Perhaps Mr. Harris should address this sermon to the Christians who remain silent as mobs rage for the persecution of religious minorities in the name of Christianity."

Perhaps you should specify where this is happening, otherwise people might suspect you are indulging in a childish game of 'He said that about me so I'm going to say it about him'.

The truth is that I'd bet Sam would be more than happy to take a pot-shot at Christians, since we atheists believe that all religious beliefs are equally ridiculous (though Mormonism is obviously more ridiculous than most). However, you'd also have to show that the Christian violence and silence you refer to are as prevalent as the Muslim violence and silence he talked about. Can you do that? If not then I'm not sure how seriously we should take your post.

I once read that Islam is peace and love - but Muslims might object that I have taken that completely out of context.

I agree about the silliness of religion, but there ARE moderate Muslims in the United States. Some are medical doctors here in rural Iowa where there is a shortage of doctors and a plentiful supply of elderly sickly people.

The reason for the community center is clear, that it is ten blocks from the mosque will make it convenient for them. Look at a map: current mosque is at 145 West Broadway, overflow are already praying at 45 Park Place, straight down West Broadway from where the Imam has been spiritual leader all along. (Is he supposed to move the mosque that is 13 blocks from Ground Zero farther away too?)

Protests in Tennessee and California show that no distance will satisfy some.

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----------------BRAVO! "RONGOKLUNK"
You say: "Religion has to go if we ever want a sane and compassionate world---".
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I say again BRAVO! "RONGOKLUNK"!
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------------RELIGION IS ORGANIZED CRIME!
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And: "The worst form of 'Child Abuse" is the 'warping of their mind' with the lies of the phony 'Ponzi-racketeering' thiefs that call themselves "Priests", Ministers", "Bishops" "Popes", "Mulahs", "Imams", etc, etc.
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And, unfortunately, from earliest recorded times those same type rats infected the minds of ill-informed people using brainwashing and mesmerizing-indoctrination with the very same or similar lies about a 'Mythological' fairytale entity that never ever existed but induced fear and thereby enslavement among the uncritical innocents who then proceeded to pass the LIES on to their progeny!
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And so, thereafter, every succeeding generation has been INFECTED with a 'disease=of-the-mind' called 'Religion'!
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There is no need for me to reiterate all those horrific atrocities committed in the name of Islam, nor do I need to argue why those abhorrent activities must stop. All of us are painfully aware of what is going on in the name of Islam.

Those are issues which need to be discussed, must be discussed if Islam is to ever be welcomed in America.

My personal take is the Grand Mufti of Egypt, Ali Gomaa, twisted the arms of Jon Meacham and Sally Quinn, twisted their arms to have my well written, powerful yet respectful comments removed from the Washington Post.

This action by the Grand Mufti of Egypt clarifies for me Islam refuses to discuss issues and will engage in censorship to prevent issues from becoming known. Other words, Islam sawed my head off to prevent me from speaking truth.

This points to a motivation for the Ground Zero Mosque other than what is being publicly stated. We cannot trust Islam while our sincere and truthful voices are silenced through Iron Fist censorship by high level leaders of Islam.

This incident of tyrannical censorship of my words, which parallel those of Sam Harris, this censorship by the Grand Mufti of Egypt has caused my trust factor of Islam to plummet into negative numbers.

Now, I do not trust Islam, doubtful I ever will, and I will urge readers to be highly skeptical of Islam for the good of America.

Something ain't right.

Okpulot Taha
Choctaw Nation

While a small minority of Muslims loudly preach violence and destruction for the infidels... you rarely hear much about peace and love from the moderates. At the same time you read about how viciously they treat each other without much being said from any of them... one can only surmise that... yes they're stuck somewhere in the 7th century still fighting to keep christian armies out of the mid-east and all Muslims in line.

If only it were so simple.

Imam Rauf is currently in the mideast on a fund raising mission for his Islamic center. Should he utter the words so thoughtfully suggested by Sam, how much money would he be able to raise? Not because the majority of Muslims are jihadists but because, like fundamentalists of all stripes everywhere, they are incapable of listening to reasonable arguments of any kind. So incapable that Imam Rauf apparently can't even speak those words to his own flock. Sam is above all someone who should understand this, much as he might despise it.

The WTC area is not "sacred ground," Muslims have as much right to build there as anyone else, and the whole controversy has been manufactured to influence the November elections. By contributing to it Sam does a disservice to the cause he thinks he's defending.

Interesting enough, much earlier I called for precisely what you suggest, Sam Harris. My words were somewhat different, a bit more detailed on why Islam needs to separate its faith and Sharia law. A clip from my comments,

"Best action Rauf and all Muslims can take is to stand up and tell our world, 'We denounce and reject Sharia law.' Islam and Sharia law must be separated, must be completely cut away, cut apart...This is the only salvation for Islam...Islam is right. Sharia law is wrong."

My comments were censored out, completely removed, by Jon Meacham, Sally Quinn and the Grand Mufti of Egypt, Ali Gomaa.

I am a well known and a well respected writer, an English professor. Nonetheless, the Washington Post censored out my comments rather than have Americans read my words which are almost precisely what you write.

Our thoughts are stunningly the same, but yours remain, mine are censored.

I have serious issues with Jon Meacham, Sally Quinn and Ali Gomaa engaging in metaphorical "book burning". This leads me to wonder if the Washington Post is effecting some Islamic agenda.

Censorship, concealment of truth, is not in keeping with our American way of life.

Okpulot Taha
Choctaw Nation

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Sam Harris who writes nasty words about "TOLERANCE" has a very poor memory.
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How can any RATIONAL person be "tolerant" of those who espouse "ISLAM" and 'live' by the EVIL words of ISLAM's Quran?
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There 'AINT' no "MODERATE" "MUSLIMS"!
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"Muslim" people are killing our Military Troops in Pakistan & Afghanistan!
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Muslims pray five times every day for "Allah" (their word for a "Ghostly-Apparition") to give them the 'strength' to KILL ALL "INFIDELS"!
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That's YOU & ME! And, everyone else who refuses to put their nose in the dirt while on their knees 'adoring' a FARCICAL CONCEPTION!
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I'm a big fan of Sam Harris and I agree with most of what he's written here (and elsewhere). However I have to quibble with the sentence: "While the scriptures of Judaism and Christianity also contain terrible passages, it has been many centuries since they truly informed the mainstream faith." That is factually untrue. Nazism was informed by many of the worst texts in Christianity -- and that was 70 years ago not "many centuries" (how quickly we forget, eh?). Furthermore, George W. Bush's messianic invasion of the Middle East was informed by his Christian faith and Israel's policies toward the Palestinians are informed by their ancient sacred texts. Even Harris' beloved Buddhism is rife with sexism and homophobia. It seems to me that the problem is religion in general (as Harris sometimes argues) not Islam alone (as he appears to argue here).

We cannot depend on the moderates for such sentiments. While they have eschewed the more unsavory parts of Islam, they cannot bring themselves to condemn it, for that would mean condemning Islam itself. This is the paradoxical garb that erudite moderates, like Reza Azlan, willingly adorn, while continuing to insist that the rest of the world lacks the sophistication to discern subtleties of Islam.
We have to look for reformists like Irshad Manji who have realized that public repudiation of the unsavory aspects of Islam is necessary to jump-start an Islamic Renaissance.

I concur fully with the content and spirit (no pun) of the comments of RONGOKLUNK.

While American military strategists are bending over backwards to convince Iraqis and Afghans on the street that we're at war with Al Qaeda and not with Islam, these right wingers have started a media blitz to prove otherwise. These racist thugs are endangering the lives of our servicemen and women overseas and should be cast in that light in the media. The media, looking to boost their paltry sales, gives plenty of airtime to the lunatic fringe like the tea party bigots, instead of focusing on the real danger here. I would like the military brass to speak up against these right wingers that are making the US military missions in Iraq and Afghanistan more difficult.

As usual Sam; brilliant clarity and reason

Perhaps Mr. Harris should address this sermon to the Christians who remain silent as mobs rage for the persecution of religious minorities in the name of Christianity.

Or perhaps he should look in the mirror.

For the last few weeks now the Religious Right have been using the planned Islamic Community Center as a way of getting their flock angry and soliciting donations. The Media in typical fashion has eaten it up.

When Evan Kohlmann said that anti-Muslim rhetoric in America is bad news for anti-terrorism efforts, what he is really saying is that the Christian Right’s anti-Arab racism is bad for diplomacy. This isn’t about being critical of Islam, it is about racism.

You can read the rest of my response to this topic:
http://www.examiner.com/atheism-in-philadelphia/on-faith-enough-with-the-ground-zero-mosque-already

I will be responding to every issue posted in the 'On Faith' section. If you would like to be notified when my new response is up, please subscribe.

Brilliant Sam. Time to put away childish things and face the only reality we know of, and ENOUGH of fairy tales and the supernatural nonsense that is drummed into our heads from birth. No wonder so many of us take years to finally get it out of our psyches. There's another world out there that's called reality, where if you talk to invisible men - normal folk will shake their heads and laugh. Religion has to go if we ever want a sane and compassionate world in which to raise our kids.