Can Minorities Derail the Same-Sex Marriage Express?

This week's "On Faith" discussion centered on the question of what is marriage and how the various religious concepts of marriage may influence the legal and civil relationship of the same name. I was disappointed, however, by the response of the Reverend Samuel Rodriguez.

Instead of answering the questions as posed, and thereby providing readers with his particular faith perspective of this immensely important issue, Rev. Rodriguez chose to regurgitate a purely political view of how the same-sex marriage issue could splinter traditional Democratic support groups (blacks, Latinos and gays) and grow the Republican base. While we are used to politicians ignoring questions as asked and instead arrogantly providing answers that in no way relate to the original question, I expect a more good-faith effort from religious leaders when participating in public discourse to show fidelity for the forum and specific topic of the day.

Mr. Rodriguez' article displays a fundamental truth about human beings, particularly the quip about the "Garcia, Rivera, and Jackson stops." Even people who should know better cannot resist stepping on others once they obtain some power even if, no! particularly when that power appears in a religious context. It is truly sad when those to claim to be religious leaders, like "Bishop" Jackson, are so lacking in compassion and discernment.

Gay Americans do not want their government to "endorse a particular sexual orientation" any more than Black Americans want their government to endorse a particular skin color. The maltreatment of both of these groups arises from a hatred or fear that makes it easy for non-Blacks and non-Gays to dehumanize them. "Rodriguez, Garcia, Rivera and Jackson" are now all willing to join hands with those who not that long ago hated and feared them. There are marvelous Biblical injunctions again false witness that these men seem to have chosen to ignore, along with the direct statement of Jesus: "That which you do to the least of my people, that you do unto me."

That said, neither Jesus nor the Judeo-Christian God provided married citizens of the US with the property rights, tax benefits and legal safeguards that they enjoy. These came from the federal and state governments of this country. I am not interested in whether someone's god has an opinion on the morality of a fellow citizen. That citizen is entitled to the same rights that I enjoy, unless there is a damn good reason to deny them to him/her. No one has demonstrated that there is a damn good reason to deny same sex couples the rights enjoyed by married citizens. Indeed the reasons advanced are either blatantly religious (e.g, God forbids it) or readily countered by common sense (e.g., marriage is for procreation).

PaganPlace and Coloradodog

Have courage and work for the best.

There are millions of gay people in the world. In the past they have been mute; they are mute no more. Just by speaking up for oneself gay people have become a "problem." But they are a "problem" that will not go away.

The old taboo against gays is gone, and it can never be brought back. The fact that we are having this discussion demonstrates this to be true. That is the progress of history. There is no tactic that anyone can devise that will undo this fact.

When the religious folks rant against gay people, and trump up all kinds of "proof" that God is on their side, that only hurts them, and imperil the position of Christianity in the world even more, as each new generation extends to Christianity less and less credibility.

Christians who proclaim the love of God for all, while red-faced with hysterical hatred, are becoming a caraciture of themselves, and a laughing-stock to the whole world. They should just stay inside their churches and Sunday Schools, until they can learn how to conduct themsevles properly, in public.

When these awful, awful people get to you, just remember, homophobic Christianity is primitive, backward, and shallow. All it amounts to is assuming the voice of God, and then speaking in a commanding tone to others, as though God is speaking. But such Christians are not God and do not speak for God. In fact, their impersonations of God are offensive.

yeah, Paganplace, I understand.

Having a common enemy and guilting others are the keys to religious and political control. It seems we humans are so manipulated by fear that those like Reynolds and his supporters here easily bully a lot of us into going along with the crowd in bashing others or into otherwise feeling we're not accepted or "normal"

The lowest point in my life was in my teens in Utah, when, wanting to be accepted and popular with my Mormon peers, I participated in a night of gay bashing (they used me as the bait which I later realized reflected their total lack respect for me) I'm very sorry I participated and ask God and man for forgiveness for my young foolishness.

I have felt the pain of being an excluded, scapegoated minority myself in several ways and am trying not to let these bullies get the best of me, especially not while they are holding the Bible in one hand and the flag in the other (the later really gets my goat as I, unlike most of them, have served my country by volunteering to fight and die for the freedoms these bigots would take from others)

You have gracefully guided some of my more outrageous posts back to some sort of reason so I was simply trying to return the favor. Turning to attack all men as your scapegoat doesn't serve our common cry although some of your feelings against them are, no doubt, well justified.

I mean, do you understand, Colorado?

There are some people out there who have *always* tried to divide minorities against each other, by, perhaps showing a little favoritism to some subset of some they generally oppress and consider subhuman, say, for instance, 'Act very very anti-gay, and we'll show favor to Blacks or Hispanics, as long as the power continues to lie with *pleasing us.* Keep begging for it. When it doesn't work, be more-divided. Hahahahaha.

They do it every time.

It's *all for nothing* if you let them make it so human rights and equality are *negotiable* for the next person who finds it convenient to wave a Bible and cut you loose.

Cause it'll be *you* ...five minutes later... Or in a generation. Over the same kind of stupid premise you defended when you thought queerbashing would get you in on the good side of 'da power.'

Doesn't work that way, and it never does.

Sure, this preacher may try to say, 'Real and present oppression of LBGT peopleis their own fault for standing up while ethnic minorities they may or may not also be members of are not quite accepted, through pietistic gaybashing, by our benificent overlords ...that we support in their definition of conditional human rights... For us but not if someone says it's not time yet or not Christian or American... For Jeezus...

And on it goes.

"Paganplace,

Coloradodog:
"Are you OK? You seem beside yourself here, not at all like your rational self."

Being, I like to think, very capable of reason under unreasonable circumstances, doesn't mean there doesn't come a point where, after quite often all too literally *fighting* for 'minorities' all my life, perhaps with little reasonable expectation of 'reward:' in fact when there was more at stake for *me* in *losing* a fight than there was, for, say, any Latino male or whoever I was defending...

Yeah, I get angry when someone from 'Liberty University' wants to come claim that 'minority rights' come from saying 'some minorities' are more 'worthy' to the GOP Fundie-'God' ' than others, and that it's therefore good for ethnic minorities to act all "insulted" at the idea of *EQUAL RIGHTS FOR MINORITIES FULL STOP.*

Yeah. I know the GOP and Fundies want to treat this as though *LBGT* people appeared out of nowhere, decided to put on an 'oppressed' 'act' just to ride on some damn coattails of 'real' (potentially-Fundie) minorities...

But it *does* make me angry.

Not in the least because it's just *boneheaded* to start claiming it's OK to set conditions on what kind of minority it's OK to oppress... when you're still a minority some fear are invading our country for express purposes of becoming a majority.

Gods alive. Yes. It's frustrating. Yes, it angers me. I bled on the streets over this.

And all this horror in Tel Aviv is based on the passages in a mostly mythical book!!! Very sad!!! Another reason to rip the foundations from the major religions!!!

"ET TU, ORTHODOX JEWS?"

The murder of these three is an unspeakable horror from which Tel Aviv, one of the most liberal cities in the world, is reeling. Gays live openly in that great city, more so than in New York, have annual Gay Pride Parades, etc.

In all likelihood, the killer was Haredi (see Wikipedia) and should be referred to as such, not as either "Orthodox" or "ultra-Orthodox," a meaningless term served up for observant and/or cultural gentiles.

Jewish extremists of this assassin's sort belong to a type of "fundamentalist" faction which came into being only in the 1970s, after the latter part of this century's Roman-style manipulation of Israel. Since the failed Clinton "Peace Process," they have increased in number and will continue to do so. Their right-wing agenda has, of late, been advanced outside their community by continued attacks from Gaza and Lebanon, Hamas assaults on Fata.

The Haredi program will not prevail in so far as gays are concerned. As for other matters, it is difficult to say, painful to think about. They put off the majority of Israelis, but, then, as Netanyahu's election evidences, the country is shifting to the right.

Where the Orthodox did prevail and continue to do so is in the matter of heterosexual divorce. Israel has religious courts representing all the religious denominations of its citizens. The Jewish religious court, which, of course, favors men, was the concession of the early Zionists (socialists, egalitarians) to the Orthodox. Funny, but it often seems that whenever and wherever national concessions need to be made, they come in female form.

ET TU, ORTHODOX JEWS?:

Three killed in Tel Aviv gay centre shooting
(AFP) – 2 hours ago

TEL AVIV — A masked man opened fire on a crowd in front of a gay community centre in Tel Aviv late Saturday, killing three people and wounding at least 10 others, Israeli emergency services said.

A young man and a young woman were killed on the spot while the third victim died in hospital and one of the wounded was in serious condition, they said.

The gunman, who was dressed in black, unloaded an automatic weapon on the young group of gays and lesbians at the entrance of the centre, located in the heart of Tel Aviv, and then ran away, witnesses said.

Tel Aviv Police Chief Shahar Ayalon ordered the closure of a nearby gay bar in the city and urged such establishments to remain vigilant.

"We are only at the first stage of the investigation, we continue our search and we are not sure of the motive of this attack since the centre has not received any threats recently," Ayalon said.

Representatives of the gay community believe it was a homophobic attack.

"It is not surprising that such a crime can be committed given the incitement of hatred against the homosexual community," the president of Tel Aviv's gay and lesbian community, Mai Pelem, told reporters.

Pelem was referring to verbal attacks against gays from the religious community.

Paganplace,

Are you OK? You seem beside yourself here, not at all like your rational self.

These haters in the name of poor old Jesus annoy me to but take it easy.

(hugs)

Do you understand, Mr. Rodriguez? They will never care how many of people like me you hurt or how much money you make or how extreme a 'yes-man' you are.

You will *always* be a *'little brown man,'* ...A tool. A token, to them.

If you don't believe me, try disagreeing with your 'new friends.' On anything.

Anything.

Take your pick.

And I will say this to Mr. Rodriguez: I have been personally assaulted under far mor cogent rationales than I have seen him espouse here. I have also defended Latino people against far less, at no small personal risk.

I've also seen some who think they will earn the favor of cartain bullies by turning to some wussy-arse Fundie pseudo- intellectual version of machismo, turn on their friends,

And become hamburger for those they sought to appease by bushwhacking someone in sight of bullies.

Dumbasses.

Bigotry cannot be appeased, because it is never *at* ease.

'Once you pay the Danegeld,'

You're screwed.

Dale8: "Unfortunately, people like Bishop Jackson get to set the rules and he goes against the American Psychiatric Association and World Health Organization. According to him and his followers, gays choose to be so, so no, they are not minorities."

Well, I do suggest that if I've been somehow misguided in my lifelong support for equal and unalienable human rights for *all,* but rather certain 'minorities' are to be judged upon how their perceived 'merits' and denigrations can be portrayed....

Well.

I'm not seeing too much selfish interest to let more 'minorities' into the country to come vote me out of my born citizenship.

The fact that as a Paddy and an Italian I know that this is used to divide 'minorities' against each other to support things which ultimately harm these minorities is apparently of no consequence, though, because Mr. Rodrigues, here, has the blessings ofJerry Falwell and isn't a token at *all,* when he suggests Latino people could be convinced to support government deciding that human rights aren't unalienable, but rather arbitrary based upon how Christian a preacher thinks you are, and that being set against each other in bullying queers of all colours in no way undermines the very basis of our essential human rights in America if enough people can be duped to vote otherwise.......

Blacks have by far the lowest rate of marriage of any demographic in the country, with as much as 70% of Black children born out of wedlock. So it seems very curious that they are so protective of the "sanctity" of marriage. Perhaps their opposition is simple homophobia. Prejudice is as offensive coming from ethnic and racial minorities as it is from white right-wing Christians.
Posted by: JayJonson
------------
Could it be that same-sex marriage which seems at worst a mild annoyance to whites seems like a deadly threat to blacks precisely because black families are really in trouble?

PAGANPLACE asks," Am I not at least one 'minority?'"

Unfortunately, people like Bishop Jackson get to set the rules and he goes against the American Psychiatric Association and World Health Organization. According to him and his followers, gays choose to be so, so no, they are not minorities.

You see, Mr. Rodriguez. The America *I* believed in, fought for, bled for....

...has much to do with a bunch of twelve-year old dy**s k***s, f**s, sp**s, ch***s and various other newcomers, *standing up* against the toadies of Falwells and Popes, not *becoming* them.

*That's* Liberty. Not your Roveian inversions.

Cause, you know, I start seeing some of this stuff, like "Can Minorities Derail the Same-Sex Marriage Express?"

Am I not at least one 'minority?'

Or is that some kind of 'threat?'

Or are 'minorities' just those who define their identities by hurting me?

Am I not a minority? One kicked around by the big bad white man all this time, but still standing as though there were some principle that we're all equal humans or something?

If you want to join those kicking me around, (or just make it official)

I might figure somehow you can take care of yourselves and I don't particularly need to advocate for *you,* where being a *white* eligible-target for maniacal right-wingers is concerned.

But, oh, yeah, Mr. Rodriguez. Somehow... You speak for 'minorities' but represent 'Liberty University.' And the GOP. *spit at the profanation of the name.*

I suppose you want to tell people it's *not* the 'teabaggers' and neocons and Bill O'Reilly stirring up some anti-Latino sentiment... Anti-Catholic sentiment... Anti... Immigrant sentiment.

Oh, no, it's 'the gays.' Is it?

Maybe you *are* new to this country.

I believe we *all,* minority or not, have basic and unalienable rights.

If you don't believe that...

I really have no interest in caring what you think 'minorities' can do.

"Hear that all you gays? The Baptists and Ahmadinejad say you simply don't exist. In the immortal words of North Carolina's gay son Gomer Pyle, "surprise, surprise"

Posted by: coloradodog"

No worries, these people been saying I don't exist a *long* time, whether I had a queer body or brain or not. :)

Point is, America says different.

That's why I love my America.

If they manage to bring it about that America don't say that anymore...

Well.

Interesting day that would be.

Let's not.

Let's have Liberty and Justice For All.

So, New World, is that your IQ or the number of friends you had before your dog died?

Farnaz1

In reference to Leviticus cherry-picking to justify "Christian" hatred of gays being tiresome, I did go to the SBC website and got as far as an article by "Fellows of The Research Institute" that says, and I quote: "First and foremost, a homosexual person simply does not exist."

Like in Iran, where Mahmoud Ahmadinejad says no gays exist, the Baptist American Taliban is equally as ingenuous.

Hear that all you gays? The Baptists and Ahmadinejad say you simply don't exist. In the immortal words of North Carolina's gay son Gomer Pyle, "surprise, surprise"

Hmmm, "New World" apparently has failed the latest comedy course at the school of probability waves!!!

C C N L:
Whoever You'ar This below is for your-Eyes only or those whom have not seen:

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Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... A.O.

"Neither needs to except in your twisted world of cherry-picked scriptures from Leviticus all in the name of poor old Jesus."
==============
Correcting this Leviticus misreading is becoming increadingly tiresome. Kindly, visit the SBC web site for the standard Christian "NT" passages used to condemn gays and argue against gay marriage.

The Tanakh (the "OT") HAS NOTHING TO SAY ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY. Leviticus, etc., refers to the rape of one man (NB: women do not figure in this) by another, usually a victorious soldier. This sort of thing was all the rage in the Middle East (See, eg., The Contending of Horus and Seth, available online), and the Tanakh was at pains to end it.

The contemporary construct of homosexuality did not exist until the nineteenth century.

Word to homophobic Christians, cultural and observant Christians who are pro gay rights: Stick to the Christian Testament. See the SBC web site for details.

Mr. Rodriguez,

Though they have faced persecution, themselves, some minority group members are virulently antisemitic, racist, sexist, and homophobic. Ironic, but true/What else is new?

Be that as it may, neither they nor the "majority" will succeed in making the US a third world country.

Gays will have the same rights as other citizens, among them the right to marry. They will, in other words, have the same rights as minority and majority group members.

Period. Really. End of discussion. The more I right about this, the more stupid this non-issue appears.

Next on the agenda, end faith-based funding, and end nonprofit status for relgious institutions.

Religionists must be kept out of government. They are becoming increasingly dangerous. Best advice to them: Move to my native country, Iran.

I find it very ironic if minorities do wind up blocking the civil rights of gay men and lesbians. Blacks have by far the lowest rate of marriage of any demographic in the country, with as much as 70% of Black children born out of wedlock. So it seems very curious that they are so protective of the "sanctity" of marriage. Perhaps their opposition is simple homophobia. Prejudice is as offensive coming from ethnic and racial minorities as it is from white right-wing Christians.

Definitions are important!!!

Hmmm, Marriage defined as mutual and exclusive intercoursing: Sacred Rite
or Civil Right?

Both!!! (if you are heterosexual).

There is another rite/right for homosexuals defined as Mutual and Exclusive Masturbation or exclusive outercoursing (as noted by a simple Google/Bing search).

End of discussion!!!

Civil Rights Struggles

African-Americans: slaves
LGBT: eunuchs, slaves

AA: randomly killed
LGBT: randomly killed

AA: government recognition of civil rights
LGBT: no government recognition of civil rights

AA: those who could, passed as white
LGBT: those who could, passed as heterosexuals

AA: religious condemnation yes then no
LGBT: religious condemnation yes then yes

AA: family support and comfort yes
LGBT: family support and comfort no

AA: general discrimination yes
LGBT: general discrimination yes

AA: can change color no
LGBT: can change orientation no

AA: can legally be fired, denied housing, denied employment, denied marriage, denied property rights no
LGBT: can legally be fired, denied housing, denied employment, denied marriage, denied property rights yes

AA: long civil rights struggle yes
LGBT: continuing civil rights struggle yes

Who wins the civil rights game: LGBT! But we have a consolation prize for AAs: Equal Protection Under the Law

This turn of events would be ironic( for the liberals) but a great testimony to the minorities' heritage.I hope that their values will prevail and their efforts will promote and maintain traditional marriage as the standard definition of marriage in this country.

Mr. Rodriguez conveniently forgets that Jackson seems to have disappeared from the marriage debate. He has declared that he no longer lives at the address that he listed on his voter registration and there is enough evidence to warrant an investigation of his intent. If he registered fraudulently which appears to be possible he has subjected himself to possible prosecution and the penalties could be a fine of as much as $10,000 and as much as 5 years in prison. There is also an investigation into his tax status. While the city can not tax commuters from Maryland and Virginia who work in Washington, the city can and does tax city residents who work in other jurisdictions. If Jackson(registered as a city resident)failed to pay city taxes he has another problem. In any event, Jackson seems to have gone very silent.

Mr. Rodriguez also fails to mention that more than 100 clergy of various denominations from all 8 wards of the city have signed a letter supporting equal rights for gays and lesbians including marriage rights.

"Tuesday, June 2, 2009

A major development occurred today in the effort to win civil marriage equality in the District of Columbia. Faith leaders representing congregations in every ward of Washington called an 11 am news conference at Covenant Baptist Church today to announce they have formed a coalition to give voice to people of faith who support full marriage equality.

More than 100 clergy representing many faiths, races, ethnicities and dozens of congregations across the city have joined the coalition and signed a declaration of support for marriage equality. Scheduled speakers at the news conference include Revs. Dennis and Christine Wiley of Covenant Baptist Church;(Covenant is the primier Black Baptist church in Ward 8)

For more information, visit their website at:
http://www.clergyformarriage.com/

And one last comment. While Americans with African ancestors have suffered untold hardships and face untold hatred, their plight has existed for 400 years or so, gays have suffered persecution for over 14 centuries by Muslims, more than 20 centuries by Christians and no one really knows how many centuries by Jews. It is a silly argument to make. The families of both Matt Shepard and James Byrd suffered equally for the hideous murders both men suffered.

To paraphrase whatthe"

I nor my people owe the black community anything, you would probably get more support if you weren`t trying to pull white people in on some guilt trip.WE OWE YOU NOTHING

whatthel

My "racial insults" were satirical stereotypes to point out how foolish and unintelligent your prior post was that said being gay is a choice and inferring a gay can "change" him or herself.

Gay can change who they are about as easily as you could change from being black. Neither needs to except in your twisted world of cherry-picked scriptures from Leviticus all in the name of poor old Jesus.

See, the Christians will tell you that the consequences of being 'wrong' ...are too horrible to face. (Unless they 'save' you as a reward for further obedience) So you never admit being wrong. Even a little.

You never admit when you're hurting people. You escalate. And deny.

And that's where conscience goes.

I mean, you know, people realy *are* kind of bewildered how Teutonic Christians like themselves could end up allowing, participating in, even, what was done in the Holocaust. Where did conscience go? Where was it.

I asked. Silly me, I asked.

It went... Right here. The depravities and injustices people still think are appropriate to vidit upon LBGT people.

Say 'Religion' or whatever else 'justifies' it, 'commands' it: but once they get you to hurt someone like me, and offer a way out, a reason, a justification, ... they've got you. Not doing it to the next person, ever saying 'stop,' would mean... facing what you did to the likes of me.

It's not about 'definitions of marriage' ...it's about 'definitions of human.'

And nothing's forgotten.

And, it's also not forgotten who among the 'saints' of WWII didn't *care* when 'we' *were* herded into camps and otherwise 'exterminated' ...often in more 'personal' and less-tidy ways.

Nothing's forgotten.

Nothing's ever. Forgotten.

You *bet* LBGT people *today* know how not far it is from how we're treated today and how it's justified, to something like that happening again, right here.

You *bet* it doesn't much matter if an ethnic minority decides being part of that is somehow supposed to help them ingratiate themselves to that kind of mentality.

Where do you think that pink triangle came from, anyway?

"was watching the TV series, "Roots", with my beloved grandmother. At one point in the show, my grandmother, her face turning red with hurt and anger, blurted out something like, "At least they weren't rounded up, shoved into camps and incinerated by the millions."

"All her family in Europe had perished in the Holocaust because they were Jews.:

"My reaction? I was stunned.
Suffering isn't a contest. "

No, it isn't.

But if it sheds any light, LBGT people *were* in fact rounded up, shoved into camps, and incinerated by the millions.

Lest we forget.

To whatthel:

With respect, injustice is not a contest. It isn't a question of which group has suffered more or in which ways they have been mistreated.

A true story, from my youth:

I was watching the TV series, "Roots", with my beloved grandmother. At one point in the show, my grandmother, her face turning red with hurt and anger, blurted out something like, "At least they weren't rounded up, shoved into camps and incinerated by the millions."


All her family in Europe had perished in the Holocaust because they were Jews.

My reaction? I was stunned.

Suffering isn't a contest. What happened in Nazi Europe was evil. So was what happened to Africans, abducted and enslaved and brought to America for forced labor.

At about the same time in my life as the "Roots" incident, I was attacked in school one day by a guy I barely knew. Seated at his desk, he turned around, muttered "dirty Jew” and stabbed my hand with a pencil.

I had to be sent to the school nurse. When my parents found out, they rushed to the school and demanded that something be done.

The kid was suspended. And the principal called an assembly in the auditorium and explained the unacceptability of antisemitism.

What my parents didn't know at the time was that I had a secret. I was gay. No one in the universe knew my secret. I hid the truth from everyone, including those I cared most about. I would be almost thirty years old before I dared trust anyone with my secret.

I was afraid. Being gay was so stigmatized that I could not be sure that those I cared most about wouldn't kick me out on the street. Just for who I was. I hadn't done anything. I was, in fact, celibate--a "virgin". Didn't matter. Being gay isn't a choice. Nor is it a behavior. Animus against gay people isn't rational. Doesn't have to be. It still devastates innocent gay people.

Gay people have lost their jobs, been kicked out of the military, been attacked, even killed, because of the strong animus many in our society harbor against them.

They used to subject gay people to electroshock therapy to "cure" them.

Gay couples have been separated because the Immigration Service doesn’t acknowledge their relationships. I have seen the pain that policy causes. Gay parents have lost custody of their own children when other family members have challenged their “fitness” to be parents in court. That too has created unimaginable pain and suffering.
Injustice isn't a contest.

Black people weren't cremated by the millions. And Jewish kids don't have to fear telling their parents that they are Jewish.

A just society doesn't quibble over the details of injustice. Instead, it works on the problem and strives to make the society more just. For all.

WHATTHEL,

You poor fool, what suffering at the hands of unjust laws are you going through, really?

I`m not gonna stoop to name calling and racist remarks, that isn`t gonna solve anything but at the same time I`m not gonna keep quiet and listen to my people`s struggle be compared to things that happen to people because of a choice on a lifestyle. I`m not saying it`s right i wouldn`t wish persecution on anyone. I nor my people owe the gay community anything, you would probably get more support if you weren`t trying to pull black people in on some guilt trip.WE OWE YOU NOTHING

To Coloradodog, while it would be so easy to throw insults back and forth, you`ve proven yourself not intelligent enough to even keep up, The fact that you have to resort to racial stereotypes even further prooves your ignorance. I simply stated facts about the history of my people. I`m just tired of gay people trying to compare your struggle with the black experience,if black was a choice I`d choose it again. I love being black, I thank God he made me just the way I am supposed to be. Tell me how two heterosexuals create a homosexual??

And, more than that, Mr. Rodriguez, ...if someone's giving you the impression that pounding on queers helps the Hispanic or other immigrant community in the face of bigoted Angloes and white Catholics...

I have some stories about junior high to tell *you.*

This isn't that complicated.

Mr. Rodriguez:

Maybe 'Liberty University' perspectives aren't really what you'd like to use for a barometer.

"I quote Bishop Harry Jackson, President o f High Impact Coalition: "The attempt by Donna Brazile, Democratic Strategist, and others to frame the same-sex marriage debate within the same context as the African American Civil Rights movement is egregious at best and reprehensible at worst. How in the world can you compare the plight and struggle of African Americans who came to our shores as slaves, were declared less than human, suffered unmentionable abuse, Jim Crow, segregation and still to this day experience discrimination, to the plight of individuals who desire to have government endorse a particular sexual orientation? It's beyond me."

Where is this Bishop Jackson?

If it's beyond him, I'd like to tell him some stories of what I was experiencing in recent decades while he was embishoping himself.

"The progress of the same-sex marriage agenda stems from the ironic pushback rendered from California, of all places. Ironically, the heartland of America -- via judicial activist intervention -- embraced same-sex marriage in Iowa while the left coast republic of California, via democratic processes, rejected the idea."

Point of clarification, Mr. Rodriguez: California, not 'of all places' but *as an only place' ...They aren't interested in changing it, but they're the only state where the state Constitution can be altered by a simple majority 'ballot initiative,' ...even if the result is unconstitutional under US law.

This is why a lot of people went there to spend millions and millions to disinform a whole lot of voters (targeting minorities in particular) about Obama's position on Prop 8, about the text and effect of Prop 8, and in all manner of ways what they were actually *voting for* (or against.)

California, despite the 'will of the people' *not* being that homophobic, in general, was *lied to* in an organized campaign not unlike voter suppression of minorities in other states, as well as a deliberate attempt to divide one minority against another through disinformation and an amplification of prejudice.

Since when is *that* new, except for that some churches influential in certain communities have a longstanding history of virulent homophobia.

Just as they've had longstanding histories of mistrusting *other* minorities.

Divide and conquer, no new tale to tell, *except* that California has a quirkily-vulnerable 'ballot initiative' process that the Mormons couldn't even exploit in *Utah* if they had to.

More FYI:

Homosexuality was not decriminalized nationally till a few years ago. In 30 states you can still be fired for being gay. In 30 states you can be denied housing for being gay.

Even into the 70s, in some states castration was the penalty for being gay. Where as it was commonplace to arrest, institutionalize and force treatment such as electroshock therapy.

Yep, just a walk in the park.

"This is the opening the Republicans need to engage the minority communities."

Nothing like a little good-ol' Huckabee Republican gay-bashing to fuel this Rovain political "wedge issue" for fearful Latino votes.

Too bad many "Christian" Latinos are so blinded by Rodriguez's hatred of gays to realize these same Republicans use demonizing Mexicans over immigration for the same purpose.

whatthel

FYI

Gay people, from childhood on up, are bullied, beaten, made fun of, rejected, ostracized, reviled, descriminated against and murdered. And people like you are part of the problem.

Many people think that being gay is disgusting, just as many white people used to consider Negroid features and black skin to be disgusting. The thought of a black-skinned man touching a white woman was so disgusting that it was a lynch-worthy.

I am glad that you are able to put all this history aside, and look the other way. But whether you like it or not, gay people are not giving up until they have ALL of their rights. Your equal rights are not special priviliges just for you, to be kept from others over whom you may feel superior.

Being religious and anti-gay lifestyle is not a sin, either. I support the civil rights aspect of the issue and agree that SS couples should marry. But this is not an issue about blocking whom a person loves. It's about economics and tax codes and property. You can love someone without being married and vice versa. Therefore, let's cut the "love" crap out of it, and all the euphemisms about "Christians are supposed to love everybody." Marriage is not about love, and disagreeing with a particular sexual preference does not equal hatred. You can still love someone with whom you disagree. Try it sometime.

To follow whatthel's logic, I, then, believe being Black is a "choice", too. You don't have to be black if you don't want to.

You can straighten and lighten your hair, bleach your skin, loose your black accent, eubonics and black idioms, start walking upright without a shuffle, and act like a proud, true, normal white American Christian.

Or, you can join the Mormon Church, where, according to the original version of Mormon scripture in 2 Nephi 30:6, your conversion to Mormonism will make you "white and delightsome"
(the Mormons conveniently changed this to "pure and delightsome" in 1981 after NCAA basketball teams refused to play BYU), but as we all know, to become "pure" is to become white as well.

After you do all this, you can then tell me the civil rights struggles of gays are nothing like those of blacks in America.

whatthel

What an insenstive fool your are.

Dale8,

Congressman Lewis is my Congressman here in Atlanta, and I could not be more proud. Here is a man who stood by MLK and fought for equality for all Americans in the 60's, and continues to do so 40 years later. An amazing American hero.

The big difference in the "gay" movement and the real civil rights movement is simple. Blacks were fighting for equal rights to survive and be prosperous in a country that has long had a deep hatred of black people. Black people couldn`t vote,get a decent education, eat in some places, or even use the same bathrooms as white people. I`ve yet to see a "gays only" sign by a bathroom,diner,or water fountain. I believe being gay is a choice, but I do believe there should be a civil union to protect gay partnerships as far as insurance, wills , and other liberties as married couples. I don`t believe the union of marriage should be changed because a group of people think it should be otherwise. I don`t support gay marriage and will never support a cause that compares it`s so called movement to a race that has gone through slavery to segregation to where we are today, some families who are one and two generations out of slavery. This is truly an insult to any proud african american......like me

The existence of gay people upon the earth tests the instruction and obligation of Jesus, that says, to love your neighbor, love your enemy, do good to those that hate you, for if you love only those that love you, then what is the credit in that?

Anti-gay Christians fail the test. On the central theme of Christianity, they are ignorant and blank; instead they are eaten-up with their false doctrines, which are arrayed, with willful, direct, and true aim at the heart of Jesus and towards the destruction of Christian values.

Anti-gay Christians have heard false doctrines vilifying and demonizing gay people for so long that they have lost the ability to think for themselves. Their church has stolen their free will. They are but drones, listening to and repeating false doctrines and lies about how wicked and evil gay people are, when in fact, gay people are not wicked or evil; gay people are good.

Being gay is not a sin. Being gay is not bad. Gay people do not need to justify their existence to religious conservatives.

Mr. Rodriguez conveniently left out the cornerstone of Bishop Jackson's argument of comparing civil rights to civil rights.

Mr. Jackson believes gays choose to be gay, where as, a black man could not wake up one day and choose not to be black.

The old joke says this:

Gays should be allowed to get married; they should be as miserable as the rest of us!!

One can not decide for someone else whom they should love and/or marry; if the two people who decide to make a committment to one another are of the same sex....so be it! I thought that the Declaration of Independence promotes "the pursuit of happiness"; who is the one to deny that BASIC right??

Many people will say that ethnic minorities are against same-sex marriage; those who are have yet to be completely enlightened....and are victims to the conservative paradigm that only man and woman should marry. If the Constitution is supposed to be the law of the land...and the 9th Amendment allows agreeing parties to enter a contract (marriage is a contract)...and the 14th Amendment guarantees equal protection under the law...since 3 states allow same-sex marriage, and contracts in other states are enforcable in ALL 50 STATES (Constitutional protection), then...same-sex marriage is de facto LEGAL in ALL 50 states! Because of this, the Defense of Marriage Act and all state laws defining marriage in the traditional sense are BLATENTLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL!!

"We cannot keep turning our backs on gay and lesbian Americans. I have fought too hard and too long against discrimination based on race and color not to stand up against discrimination based on sexual orientation. I've heard the reasons for opposing civil marriage for same-sex couples. Cut through the distractions, and they stink of the same fear, hatred, and intolerance I have known in racism and in bigotry."

Rep. John Lewis, D-Ga., a leader of the black civil rights movement

Gee, a real civil rights leader saying this. I think this beats out Rivera and Jackson.

Latino "Christians" like Rodriguez would be good hypocritical people to perpetuate this hatred and exclusion of gays, but, in their culture, they have a convenient exception of their own. In Mexico where I live, for example, an "activo" participant in gay sex is not considered a homosexual and can even be married and have children.

Derogatory, hateful names and discrimination, including murder is reserved for "los pasivos"

http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/globalrights/sexorient/1997-Mexico-gayrights.html

Latinos like Rodriguez can conveniently have their "Christian" hatred of gays and, pardon the pun, eat it, too.

???

That the Garcias, Riveras or Jacksons are going to stop this train of Filth. Give me a break! Seems to me that Mr. Rodriguez suffers from some excess of Ethnic-pride syndrome. Is not the first time I read this gentleman writing wishfully, about a suppose influence of the hispanic cultural identity in the USA.

In this case he forgets that blacks and hispanics homosexuals are also riding that train of Filth.

What is actually preventing this issue to be approved at the Federal or National level is the Fact, that more than 40 of the 50 States have outlawed Homosexual marriages. That is more than the 75% states approval necessary to make a Constitutional amendment.

I'm Hispanic myself Mr. Rodriguez, but I'm telling you. Get over it, and get off your high horse. Most issues of Morals, Faith, behaviour, etc. are Universal not just white, black, Asian or hispanic.

Homosexuality, especially male homosexuality and the physical acts involved are a Filthy life style. That have nothing to do with being white, black, red, or yellow. That has to do with the Natural and the Nature of God's Creation.

.

The author claims no comparison between blacks and gays? Try filling in the blanks. _____ were declared less than human, _____suffered unmentionable abuse, segregation and still to this day _____experience discrimination.

How pointless and silly to try and claim that only one group in the US has experienced the above. How pointless to argue ownership of past abuses rather than trying to secure equal civil rights for all.

Yes, CIVIL MARRIAGE IS A CIVIL RIGHT. Every state grants that right to the majority of its population. When it denies the same right to a minority is is call discrimination.

It is time to end discriminatory marriage laws based on prejudice, religion and fear.
Marriage equality will come, and people will wonder what all the fuss was about.

Same-sex marriage, is a grass-roots mass movement involving millions of people, both gay and straight, with a motivated purpose to be free and equal. Like it or not, that is how it is.

Gay people exist among us in the world, and contribute greatly to it. They are not just "nothing;" they are not "God's mistakes;" they are not going away; they are not going back into the closet.

Now they want ALL their rights; there is nothing complicated about it; it is happening, and it is going to happen.

Gay marriage is coming. The views of religious snobs on this subject are irrelevant, because it is coming. All of their rants about what causes people to be gay, and how being gay is unnatural and will ruin society are pointless.

It is coming, and there is nothing that Conservative Republicans can do to stop it. They can spend all of their efforts for the rest of their lives campaigning against the rights of gay people, but it will be all a waste. Or they can do something more constructive.

Gay people are few in number, mostly invisible, benign, and harmless. Only, now they have a voice and they are using it.

Being gay is no big deal. If anti-gay people want to find out for themselves, then they should ask gay people about it. If they don't know any gay people, and don't know how to meet any gay people, then what is the problem?

When gay marriage is finally legalized in all 50 states, there will probably be several hundred thousand married gay couples in America, perhaps as many as 500,000. That is few enough in our large country so that they could be easily avoided by people who wish to remain exclusively anti-gay.

I am sure that such people will not be able to tell any difference at all in their lives, both in public, and in the privacy of their own marriage and bedrooms.

Kudos to New England and Iowa for supporting (civil) marriage. And to the Episcopal Church.

I've been busy this summer officiating for couples who are coming to CT to wed this summer from around the country.

And they are bringing their families and friends along to celebrate too. Congrats to all.

Joe Mustich, Justice of the Peace,
Washington, Connecticut, USA.

And to the marriage foes, please find something else to do with your time, because life's too short. Find love.

And remember, marriage is firstly a civil matter, as marriage licenses are issued by and recorded in town halls not church halls.

If the Republicans can actually manufacture a big tent, and quit being the party of ignoramuses like racists and creationists, we could see 1994 all over again.

POSTED BY: WMARKW
==

Well said!

They did in 2008 in California when the blacks that overwhelmingly voted for Obama overwhelmingly voted to pass Prop 8

Most blacks in California were bigots when it came to this.

Opinion on same-sex marriage is based more on age than race. Younger voters of all races are far more supportive of gay rights than older people. In California, 61% of all 18-29 year olds voted against Prop 8 and a majority of young minorities did as well including 59% of 18-29 year old latinos. It's essentially inevitable that same-sex marriage will be legalized as younger people join the electorate.

This issue is also not enough to push minorities to the republican party. The Republican attitude towards minorities needs to undergo a seismic shift before the party can hope to attract more minorities.

Compare and contrast; one of my high school english teachers drilled that into my head.

Compare and contrast: Slave rights and gay rights; the contrasts are easy, the comparisons are profound. Slaves could not get legally married either. They could not create and sign contracts, and what is marriage mostly (legally speaking) but a huge contract with thousands of rights and responsibilities.

Navanethem Pillay, the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights spoke there last year saying, "That just like apartheid laws that criminalized sexual relations between different races, laws against homosexuality are increasingly becoming recognized as anachronistic and inconsistent both with international law and with traditional values of dignity, inclusion, and respect for all."

Apartheid: A system of laws applied to one category of citizens in order to isolate them and keep them from having privileges and opportunities given to all others. 
Stop gay apartheid.

Economic issues matter and marriage is an economic issue. Studies show that married people are slightly healthier (less costs) and wealthier (pay more taxes) than their single counterparts and this is true for gay people as well. Therefore, it is in the state's best economic interest to grant marriage equality. This is because there are thousands of rights and responsibilities that come with the legal contract of marriage (yes, marriage is a legal contract). Gay people deserve these rights and responsibilities.

This is the problem of the Democratic party, although it might not seem so currently because they're so strong right now. Their party is essentially a collection of everyone who want their own brand of identity politics. The Republicans are the party of white males and the women who are married to them; while the Democrats are the party of everyone else by promising evermore aggressive forms of affirmative action for everyone but white males.

But except for wanting redistribution of income, these disparate groups have nothing in common. Blacks resent Hispanics taking jobs. Soccer moms don't want ghetto culture coming into their neighborhoods. And as the author points out, gays don't really have much in common with ethnic minorities except grievance against society.

If the Republicans can actually manufacture a big tent, and quit being the party of ignoramuses like racists and creationists, we could see 1994 all over again.