Different Religions Like Different Paths Through the Forest

"I just worry about one thing though. I know Christians say really bad things about "witches" and "devil-worshippers" and whatnot. But I'm just curious if Pagans and their allies are ever willing to add their panoply of gods or manifestations of the divine the (suspect) God of Abraham or God of Jesus (or if you're feeling Catholic, Mary), or to look at the (horrors!) teachings of Jesus without thinking of Jesus as your "Lord and Savior." I mean, what he said (as opposed to what people wrote *about* him) is pretty compelling, and pretty compatible with the "don't hurt people" idea you folks have."

Most Pagans I've met have read the Christian Bible. In fact, most Pagans I know were raised in one form of Christianity or another.

Some of us, most even?, once we get past the pain and initial rejection stages, come back around to having respect for the teachings of Jesus in terms of the "Love one another." messages.

Interestingly enough, in my experience, one doesn't have to follow a religion to respect that it contains some truth. From what I've seen over the decades, none contain All Truth, and All contain some.

Spoken like a true UU Pagan? LOL

Howdy all. I'm a Christian, but I wanted you to know that I love Pagans and Wiccans and other nature-centered folks. I read Genesis 2 to say that we are to be stewards of the Earth, and you folks do a great job of leading folks in that direction, honoring God's (I mean that in a gender-neutral/gender-inclusive way) creation.

I just worry about one thing though. I know Christians say really bad things about "witches" and "devil-worshippers" and whatnot. But I'm just curious if Pagans and their allies are ever willing to add their panoply of gods or manifestations of the divine the (suspect) God of Abraham or God of Jesus (or if you're feeling Catholic, Mary), or to look at the (horrors!) teachings of Jesus without thinking of Jesus as your "Lord and Savior." I mean, what he said (as opposed to what people wrote *about* him) is pretty compelling, and pretty compatible with the "don't hurt people" idea you folks have.

Just curious!

I stumbled on this from Google and wanted to say thanks for posting

sind die Mittelgebirge deutlich �lteren Datums

GUILT, FEAR, IGNORANCE
The three ways that men can hold power over another, and of course if that fails they will make up lies then torture and kill them. They murdered (burned alive) women who were healers with herbs and homeopathic ways and called them evil and devil worshipers because they could not compete with these gifted women's kind of true healing love.
Being told you were a sinner at birth because of some guy named Adam's sin. Claiming that a book written by a few MEN who knew precicely all the rules to live by and claim that they are the words of a man who they claimed to be a god. They did not even start writing those gospels until over 150 years after the good man Jesus's death. Do you know how fast a story can change when it is spread from one person to another just across a room. What about the crusades when these blind bible followers went across the land and killed others in the name of god. How many wars and how many lifes have been destroyed in the name of books and gods who we have been told must bow to and blindly follow or our soul will be tortured for eternity. This bible that has been thrown in our faces as the ultimate truth was edited of most of the original authors, many women, by some guy named Constantine who took it upon himself to reconstruct it.

The true test of any faith based on LOVE is the living of it. Starhawk's words about many different paths to this same truth is something worth repeating and even putting down into a book for others to see. Not to control or dominate anyones mind and body, but to share ideas about another possible way to healing and love of one another and this planet, our Mother Earth.

I agree with previous posters - the God of the OT and the NT are supposedly the same yet behave so differently and he expects this to slide.

So I challenge you, Christians:
Email me: skylargrey@lycos.co.uk and convince me without any reference to the Bible that your way is the only way and is better than my religion. Convince me being a Christian is better than being a Druid, and anyone who comes without knowing anything about my religion isn't about to make a new convert any time soon.

Keep up the good work, Starhawk. You are a light for Pagans around the world.

To Jill, the problem, as I see it, is that it's just so hard to believe that your version of "God" really does love us, as "he" condemns all of humanity to everlasting fire in "hell", for the reason that we are less than perfect (sinful), which is the way "he" created us in the first place, then offers a chance to get out of "hell", but only to Christians (incidently or not so incidently the dominant faith of the major world powers)! It would make some sense if your faith taught that though we deserve hell, Jesus died once for our sins, so therefore we are all saved, regardless of what culture we are born into (which determines our faith, for most people). But that would take away the power of the churches to control the people, so that wouldn't work, I guess.

But unlike your "god the father", my Goddess, the Mother, like most human mothers, never forsakes us, not in life, not after this life, not if we are "bad" or even really really "bad". We can count on Her to hold us always, whether we know Her or not, worship Her or not.

Hi all. It took a while for me to find Starhawk's other postings.. When you're out on the main boards they don't show up most of the time, so I wasn't aware she'd put up other answers to the questions asked.It's good to see that. I wish that there were other folks who were followers of the big 3 religions who were genuinely interested in a dialogue rather than conversion. If they're out there, I haven't found them.
What Christians and other Bible believers almost never ever realize is that most Pagans have read the bible, myself included. Extensively. Tried to reconcile the God of the OT with the God(s) of the NT, and ultimately decided that a God who threatens people with hellfire and damnation for making human mistakes only serves as a bribe to do good things. That system ensures failure by promoting perfection without real intent. Should we strive to be better? Of course. But- rather than live in fear, we found that there is a different way- that emphasizes caring for others and taking care of Mother Earth. That's what the Rede is all about. I am not Wiccan specifically, but I believe in the Rede and that what gets sent out comes back times 3 (when it's bad i think it's times 10- it just seems that much worse to me.) For me, learning about science just makes me marvel at the laws which govern our natural world in all it's complexities, and how much we are a part of all that complexity. Morality can also be found in the fables of Aesop or other mythologies as much as in the bible. why must one book be the be all, end all? Because it said so? If I said I'm the reincarnation of Jesus, it doesn't make it true. I looked to find something that could help me explain the patterns I saw in my life. I see interplay of fate and destiny, light and dark all around and know that there are things I'll never really know. And that's ok with me. My participation in creative life (i'm an opera singer in training- my night job, anyway) gives me a way to contribute to those forces. I'm not as afraid of death now that I believe in the reincarnation of the soul/spirit energy that lives in me and all things. I'm more afraid of dying before I've experienced all that this universe has to share. Mystical experiences seem to be common among all people. It's the label of the layer on top of it that makes people convinced that they have 'the one truth'. We as human animals have the capacity to do and create amazing things- and also have the capacity for utmost cruelty to everything around us. If we stop to tune back into what our Mother is trying to tell us, sometimes violently, sometimes very subtly, we will find our purpose here. Take care of her, and She will take care of us. Listen to her, and She will heal you.

Blessed Be!

Merry Meet and many blessings to you all! Thank you Starhawk for leading us so beautifully and with such courage all these years. I'm writing this today asking your approval and blessings...at your convenience please go to www.saktijnana.net and you will see what I'm speaking of here. PEACE )O( Rick

rats and bats sorry bout the double post

CAILEEN AND CHRISTIANS WHO KNOCKED US IN THE HEAD WITH A BIBLE-

I really tried hard to live in imitation of Jesus(ata) for many many years- i dont want to be self glorifying- but i lived for years in complete service to humankind- total pacifism made bullies beat me up- renouncing all material possessions made me very poor - but God did find ways to keep me fed-
i found other "christians" threatened by my adherence to christian principles-
ne thing i did was i fed 100 people a day for a year on Venice Beach and never touched money for that year and wore the same dress and had no pockets(its hard not having pockets) one time something funny happened- it illustrated your point---
ed bradley was interviewing people on the beach and there was a fellow i fed every day who had legally changed his name- i kid you not- to jesus h. christ (he actually put the H in)because he really thought that he was Jesus(ata)and he was crying to ed bradley that the christians
were passing out sandwiches and they WOULDNT GIVE JESUS A SANDWICH!

i have found in my life, that those with the greatest need to pound others on the head with their beliefs seem to harbor the deep need to convince themselves... peace

CAILEEN AND CHRISTIANS WHO KNOCKED US IN THE HEAD WITH A BIBLE-

I really tried hard to live in imitation of Jesus(ata) for many many years- i dont want to be self glorifying- but i lived for years in complete service to humankind- total pacifism made bullies beat me up- renouncing all material possessions made me very poor - but God did find ways to keep me fed-
i found other "christians" threatened by my adherence to christian principles-
ne thing i did was i fed 100 people a day for a year on Venice Beach and never touched money for that year and wore the same dress and had no pockets(its hard not having pockets) one time something funny happened- it illustrated your point---
ed bradley was interviewing people on the beach and there was a fellow i fed every day who had legally changed his name- i kid you not- to jesus h. christ (he actually put the H in)because he really thought that he was Jesus(ata)and he was crying to ed bradley that the christians
were passing out sandwiches and they WOULDNT GIVE JESUS A SANDWICH!

i have found in my life, that those with the greatest need to pound others on the head with their beliefs seem to harbor the deep need to convince themselves... peace

It is almost frightening that you state you have read the bible? Have you not heard of the old covenant and the new covenant? What knowledge have you grasped in reading the living word of God? If you do honestly talk with people of true faith and they can not answer your valid yet simple question, then you are talking with people that do not have knowledge of the truth.

Go forward and learn my friend – for you have sought answers in places that are empty vessels. I wonder if that is your intention. It is as stated previous - sad to see a man preach of tolerance while dishing his version of tolerance. Only the intolerant preach of tolerance as they cry like offended children in the corner…

He has answered it all in the reading you have stated, but you have understood nothing? Preach your tolerance filled with ignorance, this will get you far. You have no willingness to understand the truth... May God help you!

To all the Christians who posted here:

Welcome. Now, all that nonsense about reading the "Good Book," I have. Several times. 12 years of Catholic school. And I have YET to meet a Christian who lives by it. Jesus advocated tolerance and yet I hear none of it in your messages. Jesus preached non-violence. Yet, non-christians are continually attacked by his followers. How do you reconcile this?

Also, when I speak with door-to-door preachers (and I do SPEAK with them, we have wonderful, enlightening, intelligent conversations for the most part), I ask them to answer the one question no christian has yet been able to answer satisfactorily to me. Perhaps you know:

The Bible is about God. In the Old Testament, God is stern, eye-for-an-eye, turn-you-into-a-pillar-of-salt for induling the human curiosity I gave you, "sacrifice your only son to me...oops just kidding" kind of god. In the New Testament, Jesus tells of his wonderful father who wants only to love us and welcome us into his heaven. Now, explain to me how that is the same God. Sounds like two different beings to me or one with one hell of a split personality.

Pagans at least tend to have a live & let live attitude. Why must you seek to inflict your thoughts and your beliefs on all of us? Why can you not let us do as we wish? If, at the end, you're in heaven watching us burn in hell, so be it. Can you even entertain the idea that you will go to your heaven, and I will go to the Summerlands I ache for? Why must religion be black & white when nothing else in life is?

Cailean

wiccan what a gracious respnse.
peace

Jill-

I'll look you up when we both get to the other side, and we'll share a good laugh over our misconceptions. Til then, Blessed Be.

Wiccan,

I am glad that you think "All" will be surprised - for I will not. It shows hope, for you are not certain of your footing. Surprisingly, You will one day hear your words again. Jesus is the answer…seek and he will provide confidence… May God help you!

Jill-

I think we ALL are going to be suprised after our physical death.

The words are long and empty of so many… I find a massive and diverse mix of people who are lost but seek within their experience the answers for things beyond their comprehension. Many are instructed by masters in the art of words and human feelings. It would have been easy, even for myself, to cling to the reiteration of what felt right! To love – ah, the joyous sound of those words… I am at times ashamed of those who call themselves followers of God but deny Christ. I am at times ashamed of those who call themselves followers of Christ but deny his written teachings. I am at times ashamed of the hypocrites that follow his written teachings in their skewed ways. BUT, then I realize that we are simple, human and easily perverted. The bible is the most historically accurate and unadulterated book ever written. If secular experts cannot disprove a single concept within, how can those who have never read it believe they are experts in its writings, meanings, understandings and ultimately…its truth? The freedom lovers, the religious spiritualists’ and ‘tolerant’ ironically toss words of hatred and needed censorship of others who express differences. Ultimately, the end will come for each of us. Do you want to rely upon the teachings of men, the feelings of your heart, the expressions granted by evilness or a book? If I tell you the way it should be; then I make the rules and you become followers. Why do we have such a hard time accepting our God and that he gave his only begotten son for our sins so that we may join him after our end? Truly he made the rules and we need be his followers. Those that speak without research or knowledge – shame on you. A study of the odds that Christ is Lord has been completed that proves without a shadow of a doubt - that his if the messiah! The bible has brought multiples of people to the gospel of Christ, even though they set out to destroy its foundations!

Do you know for SURE that you are going to heaven? Will you be surprised after your death?

www.depotmart.com

Oh, if only I could have stayed in the place Starhawk guided me to. Not moved on to the discussion.
Mark--facts are only physical truths. And these physical truths are not acquired through the physical senses. Begin with an idea; and are realized within thought. Thought moves the body. There is no scientific formula to describe the composition of SELF,--or personal thought. The frontier our American ancestors penetrated was not linear;--but exists deep in thought! All religions take us to a common meeting place. A place where truth, freedom, peace, love, equality, personal talent and everlasting life exist. From here they directed us toward a place of happiness,--or justice;--to heaven on earth!
These ideals are not acquired from the physical environment. Are pure conscious senses. As they even defy academic definition;--it may be best we return to God for guidance!

Hi again, Starhawk! I hope you continue writing/posting here, even though being constantly preached at in the Comments sections might get a bit tiresome. Does your family still celebrate Winter Solstice, Christmas, Hanukkah and Kwanzaa all together?! If so, I trust you will take the needed vacation from holidays afterwards (LOL).

By the way, have you had a chance to read the essay thing I gave you the last time you were in Seattle? It's called "Genesis: Notes for Research." If you haven't gotten around to it, that's okay; I know you have a massive schedule during most of the year. But one of these days, you might dig it out for a bit of light reading, and let me know what you think of it. If you're having trouble finding it again, it can be found at http://www.angelfire.com/folk/karivox/litmarket/genesis.html .

Thanks again for writing,

Karen Olsen
a/k/a The LairMistress

Comments like "If only everyone, of every faith, could truly understand that all positive paths lead to the same end. That the Divine is beyond the human trappings of names." is the reason we must post, we must preach, we must inform. Who knows this statement to be true? Does anyone have any facts to support this statement?

Only with facts can truth be found. Or is anyone interested in truth? If all we desire is to hear (read) our own words, why correspond at all? Have we lost the desire to do research, find facts, dig the depths for real knowledge? Do we really know why we believe what we do?

I challenge everyone who posted here to some homework. Find the real reason you believe what you do. No matter what it is. It may be because my parents believed it. It may be because my friend turned me onto it. Possibly a professor showed you the path. Be honest with yourself. Challenge yourself. Find the real reason. But make sure its real. Quoting scripture may be the reason, perhaps its not. Then, let us return and post our reasons for others to read. I think we will find our reasons for believing are very similar. What we choose to believe, however, is problematic.

My personal reason is simple. I see the world through the eyes of an engineer. I make and design things. I see that the world must have been designed and created. It could not have happened by chance. And if that is so, then I want to know the person responsible for creating all these things.

Starhawk it is so good to see your name and your post here. What a lovely childlike explanation to offer a little one. Thank you.

I read the posts that the Christians are writing and shiver. Are these the same things that were being said when they tied people to the stake and lit the fire?

I thank Newsweek for giving Starhawk this forum as well. Newsweek is showing itself to be on the cutting edge of contemporary thought.

Bright Blesssings to you all at this special time of year.

Y'know, I don't really care if all paths lead to the same clearing. I didn't get on my path to go to the same place the Abrahamics are going. I got on my path because it was going where *I* wanted to go.

I've been on the Internet ten years and there are just as many loonies now as there were when I first signed on. And they don't convince anyone so I don't know why they bother. But this amounts to blog vandalism. Can't Newsweek delete these comments?

To the person who wanted to know why it should be necessary to tell a child about a deity, there is nothing wrong with imbuing a sense of the sacred in our children. Denying the sacred, in fact, is how the world has gotten into its present mess, and I include in that estimation the Abrahamic practice of denying sacredness in some quarters while exaggerating it in others. But the atheist approach is no better where it declares that the universe is a dead machine worthy of no particular veneration. On the other hand, the atheist who values all-that-is as important and special in its own right is OK with me.

Thanks to Newsweek for allowing Starhawk this forum. I've followed her work for a long time nad admire her greatly.

Ok, I haven't read all of these posts, but enough to want to comment.
First, thank you Starhawk for being the voice of the Goddess and thanks to the WP and Newsweek for creating this site.
Ah, religious diversity at it's finest. Remember folks, this is why ya gotta love the religious freedom our country has granted us.
As for myself, ok, all you "blind and in chains" kinda folks...I am a Christopagan. Yes, Christo as in CHRIST and Pagan as in Earth/Energy/Ancestors. I guess I would also be rightly called a Panentheist.
I beleive that God over all IS, and is in all things. We all speak different languages, but we all speak. We all beleive in different Gods, but they are all the same ONE.
Jesus was our most amazing wonderful teacher, super-human and a living embodiement of GOD. As are we all. But some of his followers have really spent too much time in negativity land, in my humble opinion. That is why I know so many people who run screaming from the Christianity of their fathers and end up practicing more open, positive spiritualities like Wicca and Paganism.
That is why I encompass Christianity and a deep love for nature in my spirituality. I see the same things in them. God and Love.

WHY do people have to focus on the negative and attack each other for their differences?
What about LOVE??? IS that not the central point of Jesus' message.
I think so.
This is what I love about Christianity. What Starhawk called "the concept of a deity who represents powerful, unconditional love."

"Love is always faithful and kind and never jealous..." (1 Cor. 13)

Green Blessings and Love
Solea

ooo sorry that is the second time someone has chastised me for that i dont look at the keyboard when i write and sometimes slip in and out of caps i also misspell and abuse punctuation im old and kind of new to these subtleties ive been told it means yelling i only use it for emphasis when its with lowercase im more interested with content and will probably make this mistake in the future

WHY IS EVERYONE USING CAPITALS ALL OF A SUDDEN!?!

Dear Starhawk

Thank you for a thoughtful and well-written first post here at your new "home" on newsweek.

If only everyone, of every faith, could truly understand that all positive paths lead to the same end. That the Divine is beyond the human trappings of names.

If nothing else my hope would be, and after reading some of the previous posts perhaps it is a fruitless one, that people would understand that the Divine is, at the very least, beyond human failings of narrow-mindedness and cruelty, and is instead understanding and accepting.

Blessed Be
Mama Kelly

It's been said before, but why is it that we don't have an influx of Pagans (or Jews, or Muslims or what have you) spamming the comments of every Christian columnist on forums like these? Why is it that only the Christians who feel compelled to comment seem to be the only people who MUST preach at us? Please, please...preach somewhere else. We're not interested in what your book has to say about us. We respect that it's meaningful to you, but please don't make the mistake of thinking that gives you the right to DEMAND that it means the same to me.

OK, MAYBE COMPLACENT IS A BETTER WORD, OR STATIC, OR CRYSTALLIZED, OR INDOCTRINATED WITH,

Jill, you need help and I hope your jesus gives it to you. I wish people like you could see beyond your nose. Please get professional help.

Jill: Why so strident?

Victoria: Why the emphasis on discomfort?

The cosmos is so vast, and time is so deep. Is placating a jealous deity really what it's all about?

JILL--Instead of presuming to tell GOD how He(or SHE) should be worsipped-

why dont you ask HIMORHER instead?

howabout GOD LEAD ME TO WORSHIP YOU THE WAY YOU WANT ME TO, NOT THE WAY THAT IM COMFORTABLE WITH.

if God wants us all to be christians, that prayer will lead us all there. ut perhaps God has other intentions but you wont know unless you ask.

a salaamu alaikum

Remember - Jesus LOVES you so very much! He wants you to know He lived, He died and He was resurrected for you. He wants to be your friend on earth and your salvation to heaven.

BUT HEY... "I am a good person and I try to live by the 10 commandments." The bible tells us that "ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD." I am going to go out on a limb here and say boldly that "All" includes me, Mother Mary, your pastor, that silly guy down the street and you.

God HATES sin! God cannot look upon sin....Hence the entrance of our innocent and pure savior. Jesus took on my sins, Mother Mary's sins, your pastor's sins, that silly guy's sins and your sins.

Remember - "I am the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIGHT. No-one comes to the father but through me" Jesus said that!

"BUT HEY....I can work for my salvation! I will feed the poor, help the sick and go to church every Wednesday and Sunday." That's Great, BUT IT WILL NOT DO ANYTHING FOR YOUR ETERNAL LIFE! Jesus is the answer - THAT'S IT!

I am going to go out on a limb again and say, "no-one" means nobody, NO NOT ONE can or will make it to heaven but through Christ Jesus our Savior! This is one of those times that "Good" just isn't good enough - YOU NEED "PERFECTION"(JESUS)

BUT HOW?... Read this page again and then sit down, bow your head and repeat something like the prayer below. Use it word for word or write your own. Please do this... I want to see you in Heaven some day!

Dear Heavenly father, I am a sinner and I need your help. I desire greatly to have Jesus as my Personal Savior. I want You to come into my heart and live. I want You to wash me white as snow in the presence of God. Thank you for dying on the cross for my sins. I open the doors of my life and receive You as my Savior and LORD. Thank you granting me personal forgiveness and eternal life. Mold me into the person that You want and need. Thank you LORD JESUS for this wonderful gift of Grace! Amen!

Off my website - www.depotmart.com

Isn't there a little something inside each of us that makes us 'who' we are? A unique something that makes you Jill, Jesse, Fred, Tara or ... What makes you 'who' you are is that which will live forever. The good news - Your unique "you" has a choice to go to Heaven or Hell! Whether you chose to believe in eternity or not, it doesn't matter... This unique "you" is going to reside in your choice of eternity.

The leading killer in the world is DEATH - it gets everyone eventually. Last time I checked, 10 out of 10 people die. Do you know what happens when life is over? When the final shout comes... "Game Over! Everyone out of the pool!" What will happen? Are you going to have Jesus' help and support on the final day? Will you go to heaven?

Can you handle the truth? Well... Here it is!

You have sinned and so have I. We have been separated from God which eliminates great experiences of God's love and plan for our life.

God Loves ALL people (lucky for us). He offers a wonderful and free plan for your life!

God sent his son, Jesus Christ, to pay restitution for our sins. The pure Jesus took upon himself the sins of the world for our redemption. He is the only way to Heaven - no other way exists under earth or in the surrounding universe.

If you believe upon his name, you will be granted entrance to heaven forever! We must individually believe that he came to earth and died for our sins. We must accept him as our personal savior..... THAT'S IT! TRULY BELIEVE!

Jesus Christ came to earth for our redemption. Of all the prophets, saviors or church founders that many religions place their faith upon, there has been but one that still lives! There is only one bible - the HOLY WORD OF GOD.

Man has tried for centuries with the help of Satan to distort GOD's Grace and his word.... don't let them stop you from eternity in the glory and presence of the LORD! Toss the man-made ideas away from you, re-read this page and receive the LOVE of our GOD.

Put your faith in Jesus rather than men!

He is waiting with his arms wide open!

Right off my website - www.depotmart.com

Tina - what are you thinking. Mark you are right on, as Jesse, 2in7billion and the others that have knowledge of the truth.

Tina - I do not want you heart or you wishes for me or the others that have knowledge of the truth. "To be foolish enough to think that yours is the exclusive path is similar to thinking..." Well, "if you are born in a barn then you must be a cow"? as stated previously...

Jesus said " I am the way, the truth and the light - NO ONE enters heaven but through me.." According to your words, then Jesus is "close-minded and hard-hearted, [and an] ignorant man.. If you have a problem with the exclusive knowledge given in the bible - then tell GOD he was wrong...but, please stop speaking words without meaning as you pour the constant dribble that spills from your letters.

"The real you understands that we are all connected and the goal is about treating each other with respect and kindness" - Tina - isn't this a country song? Do you find it ironic to toss out your belief as fact and called it from an open mind - your open mind. It is amazing that the tolerant are only tolerant of their concepts and never includes tolerance of the truth as Jesus told us over and over and ....

It is those Christians that are one-sided, untolerant and think we are in error.... Wait... God, Jesus and the holy spirit are one-sided, untolerant and think you are in error. They have a beautiful way to his kingdom and offered for free to he who accepts the gift. Now who has the ego and self rightousness behavior? You can't save yourself!

If only the unwilling would actually read the book they mock...

"On that day when you kneel before Jesus and declare that He is Lord of all, you will remember this post and the words I write to you. Unless you see Him for who He is now, today, your fate on that day is grim."

That's what it always comes down to with the One True God and the believer's one-upmanship: Threats.

"My heart goes out to those posting close-minded and hard-hearted comments towards faiths other than their own."

Well said. Surely the majesty and beauty of life and universe are for more than cosmic winnowing, deciding who's going into an eternal gulag and who's not.

Give us the lighted paths, not the black hole of a jealous deity obsessed with blood sacrifice and submission.

We'll all find the same blessed sleep in the end, one-upmanship or no. As the Buddha said, "The world does not know that we must all come to an end here; but those who know it, their quarrels cease at once."

The one-upmanship of the Jealous God offers only quarrels. I'll take the openness, inclusiveness, and compassion of a Starhawk (or a Dan Dennett, for that matter) any day or any night. So would the real Jesus, I suspect, if there was such a man behind the mythic and almighty blood sacrifice.

Nathan, why does there have to be "a right answer to the questions that bring us all to sites like this"? I suspect that no one can really understand what life is like for another person. Each of us faces the certainty of death and suffering, of course. But can one really understand how another handles those certainties? It's possible that no two people can ever have the same answer to the questions that bring us all to this site.

Thanks to Starhawk for sharing the Pagan tradition and demonstrating open-hearted love for people of all faiths.

My heart goes out to those posting close-minded and hard-hearted comments towards faiths other than their own. This ignorance is a product of man's intellect and ego rather than God's bidding.

To be foolish enough to think that yours is the exclusive path is similar to thinking you can truly capture the infinite power and love of God {Allah, The Goddess, etc} within the finite constructs of human language...even if it is printed in a text that is thousands of years old and has been reprinted billions of times. Knowing ABOUT God and knowing God are 2 completely different things.

The Buddhists say something like [not sure of the exact words]....

The world's religions are like many fingers pointing at the moon; if you gaze too intently upon the fingers, you will never know the truth and beauty to which the point.

The real you {the you that is one with God} does not need to define yourself as "a believer...different than the non-believer" to feel okay. That's your ego talking...your ego needs to convince itself that it has found the right and only path. The real you is knows the deal already and is not fooled be the ego. The real you understands that we are all connected and the goal is about treating each other with respect and kindness. Loving others trumps following the "right" set of rules any day of the week.

The trick is to quiet the mind enough to hear the heart. Then the truth shines through.

Peace to all...see you in the clearing. :)

PS. to that one guy...quit peeing in the holy water. That's just nasty. :) Not all Christians are divisive...play nice.

Dear Starhawk:

My heart breaks for you. How blinded you are. Do you realize that you are in darkness, blindfolded and in chains? Yet you think that you have total freedom and proudly proclaim it to others. One day you will find out. On that day when you kneel before Jesus and declare that He is Lord of all, you will remember this post and the words I write to you. Unless you see Him for who He is now, today, your fate on that day is grim.

For we are not on the same path, you and I. We are not seeking the same God. You are seeking the god of this world and the pleasures he can give to you for a season. The pleasure will not last. The high you will come down from. The heartache you feel will still be there. You see, I know where you are, because I was there too. Enslaved. Hating this life, hating this world, hating this God. Lying to myself that everything was OK. But everytime I got alone, I knew that was a lie. Everytime I was alone, I could hear His voice calling me. You hear that voice too. Everyone does, whether they want to admit it or not. The one and true living God made us with a hole in our soul that only He can fill. He continually calls for us to come to Him, like a father would call for his child to come home. He calls for you. Listen to Him. Talk back to Him. Tell Him how you feel. Yell at Him. Ask Him to show himself to you. Call Him by name "Abba Father". Ask about His son Jesus. He will answer you.

To Victoria and Fern,

Thanks for starting my day two good belly laughs!

There is so much "love and emotion" in the testimonials of some of you people, I wonder if several of you wouldn't test positive for temporal lobe epilepsy. If you are overwhelmed by the emotions evoked by your faith, you may have a neurological pathology.
Check it out.

correction...

"One finds the hope that true life on earth and in the life after this one can be found and experienced and one also finds the everlasting and unimaginable love and forgiveness of God."

"Our story is that The Great Mother gives birth to the New Year child on Solstice morning. The Christians tell a similar story, but for them it’s about Mary giving birth to Jesus...But all those stories have this in common—they remind us that love and hope are constantly reborn in the world"

Although the birth of Jesus does certainly remind us of "love and hope", if we are going to talk about that event (or any other event/narrative of any religion) let's be honest to the story. To dwindle the birth or life of Jesus to a mere story of love being reborn into the world is dishonest to the facts of the story. The story of Jesus is not one of love and hope being reborn, it is the story of infinite love and everlasting hope entering the world through God in human flesh. There are common elements within the Christian gospel that are contained in other ancient or even relatively recent narratives, but in the story of Jesus one finds the God of the existence coming to a broken and fallen world in order to voluntarily die for His creations in order that they may be reconciled to Him by faith. One finds the hope that true life on earth and in the life after this one can be found and experienced and one also finds the everlasting, unimaginable, and the forgiving love of God.

Hey folks, pagans don't appease our goddesses with human sacrifice. That was Jephthah, and Abraham (almost), and then there was Jesus... No, wait, he was executed by the Roman empire. (Not the Jews, Mel.)

As long as people delude themselves that there is only One True Way, and it is theirs, we will have conflict. Learn to respect and learn from all faiths. Otherwise how can you be attuned to the Ultimate and drink her rich nectar?

> ferns joke (hee hee notice how i cleverly shifted blame from the fallout? sorry fern that was a weasel > maneuver!)

I liked the joke so I'll take the blame for injecting humor into the discussion. If the earlier jokes don't get people to throw stones, how about this one:

What does a pagan do at a parking meter? Reads the signs, calls the quarters, and pays tribute to Demeter

(one of the buttons at http://www.nancybuttons.com)

Pagan gods and goddesses are certainly the best of the batch. They deliver the goods when the chips are down, the barberians are at the gate and we need a miracle to save the city. However.

Please don't sacrifice anyone important to appease your gods(esses). When the huricane is coming down hard please don't throw your kids into the pot of boiling oil to stop it from blowing your house away. That's the tried and failed method of appeasement.

You may be able to get a list of people to sacrifice to the gods at the RNC. They're not reliable though as the RNC describes them as substandard and inferrior, "not fit to lead" is how they say it. It's OK to sacrifice them though since they are already going to hell, why burning at the stake was moral and a lot of fun too. It's my understanding that the DNC has a similar list of unreliable sacrificial subjects.

You may not take that bad man out and shoot him. It's against regulations. Are pagan gods(esses) pure love like the Gods of the three great faiths?

Ill inject my own particular choice of religion here, but i hope no one thinks im going to waggle my finger at them because im really not-

one of the beautiful experiences i had when i became muslim (yes, muslim) was i was reading a book that said since everything is in submission to ALLAH- then even the rocks and trees etc... are. and i was thinking also stars and black holes and we are made of the same stardust that is spinning 'billions and billions' of light years away and all a part of the same creative force and i felt such a sense of belonging here and an entitlement to my own skin and a unity with everything vibrating with the animated material manifestations of being- even with people and theyre the hardest to feel nified with of all...

there are so many differences of words that disconnect us and cause us to judge each other...

i only know one joke- i dont want to drive the christians crazy but this seems like a safe place to tell it and i was inspired by ferns joke (hee hee notice how i cleverly shifted blame from the fallout? sorry fern that was a weasel maneuver!)

its about judgements=

Jesus(ata) was standing before the crowd and he exclaimed,"let they who are without sin cast the first stone!" looking into the crowd he noticed one lone rock being gingerly lifted...whereupon he proclaimed, "Mother, put down that rock!"

let the stone throwing begin....

"They laughed at him as he died for them and our society still wants the unconditional, tolerant and unmolested right to continue laughing at him today."

You know, I said almost the same thing to my wife when I saw that Best Buy ad too...wait a minute, you are talking about John Belushi and the Season 1 SNL release, right?

> Then we collapse, and let someone else throw the New Year’s Eve party!

Thanks for the humorous aside. I think God must have a sense of humor. One of my favorites is related by Saint Teresa:

When Jesus told her, "Teresa, that's how I treat my friends" Teresa responded, "No wonder you have so few friends."

They laughed at him as he died for them and our society still wants the unconditional, tolerant and unmolested right to continue laughing at him today.

Previous post: "If God is "Love" then God is..." - thanks for clearing that up for human race - a God expert without using his words, viewing his message, checking the gospel, etc... If I live in a barn, then I must be a cow?

Blinded by pride, people will spew words that express the simplistic human thought. Your written words will be mentioned in time again - as for me - I think I'll stick with being a JESUS Freak! www.depotmart.com

Paths and Questions

From the Arch Bishop to Starhawk and all the posted comments all ring true with similiar tones. Choices; to love, accept or believe is what it boils down too. I think ,as with most everything in life, that there is a little truth to all.
If God is "Love" then God is Wiccan or Islam or Jewish or even Christianity because they all love. Consiquently if the answer is that simple its the question that must be all together confusing.
Find your place in the world. Love God, whatever you call him; he knows who your talking too (and love you back)
Peace to all, unconditionally

Let's put the Saturn back into Saturnalia!!
Peace,humanity and more than a little sense of humor to all!!

So quickly after his death, for our sins, we begin to believe the wisdom of ourselves and ignore the truth written in the greatest selling book in the world - the bible! It is written in the book that we will begin to trust our own understanding and reject the truth. No matter what twist you place upon Christmas - it is impossible to get the "Christ" out of his birthday! It is hard to understand what truth is as you rely upon your own conclusion - ask him who is truth.... the secret, he already jotted it down for you in the bible!

Bright Blessings All!

Thanks Starhawk for the great imput. I was a little confused as to how I'd approach my children with religion at a young age.
I've always wanted to go about it without bashing another religion in any way and to give them free reign to chose their own paths.
thanks again

Have a Happy Holidays!

If it is true that many religions are like paths through a forest, is it not also true that not all paths lead to the same place, and that one may lead just as easily to the mouth of a lion's den, while one leads to a meadow beyond?

Though I recoil at the knee-jerk fundamentalist damnation expressed by some of the posters above (both Christian and Wiccan, Jared and Julian) I do think that they feel, without knowing it, the essential that there may, indeed (and in my opnion, is, indeed) a right answer to the questions that bring us all to sites like this.

Blessings indeed, and may you find the one path.

“There is no such thing as mixed-faith marriages or families, as God's Word tells us that there is "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Ephesians 4:5). Therefore, all other "faiths" are false and should be rejected. Why believe in something that maintains people in their fallen, rebellious, and sinful condition and rejects God's saving grace?

We cannot know God the Father without knowing Jesus Christ - God the Son. The earth and sky declare the glory of the Lord, and we are called to praise and exult in Him, not glorify created things."

Please just go preach in church I am so tired of you Jebus freaks calling us Devil worshipers.

This is why I go and piss in the holy water every time I pass by a church. Marry x-mas and remember don't drink the water.

Thank you!Being firm in my faith base has created a tolerance for other belief systems.To see the same extended to us makes my heart soar! Brightest Blessings to all!

Merry We Meet, Starhawk. When I chose my avatar as "wiccan", I did so because it felt like I was the only one participating in these chats. It's so nice not to feel alone! Your Yule celebration sounds wonderful. My family has become resigned to the fact that by Yule I will have so many evergreens in the house it will smell like a forest, which is exactly what I wanted!

...!!!!

When will you start to reinstate human sacrifice? I mean getting pagan means getting to serious things and coherence. I know that telling right now to people that they would have to sacrifice their first born or their virgin daughters would be a little harsh righ now, but with time they could get used to it.

They could go take a look at Apocalypto for starter, just a reminder of a not so distant past...

Well, as for me, I'm really happy to know that there is at least a faith that pretends that someone else already paid to "balance" things and get some reach on a kind of blessing (permanent, according to them...). It's seems too good to be true ...! Hey!

But wait! Maybe we better check this thing just in case it could be true...

How do they call him, by the way?

...ah! Jesus. Yeah! They say he's the Savior of the world!

Hum! Maybe not such a bad deal, after all!

Go figure!

There is no such thing as mixed-faith marriages or families, as God's Word tells us that there is "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Ephesians 4:5). Therefore, all other "faiths" are false and should be rejected. Why believe in something that maintains people in their fallen, rebellious, and sinful condition and rejects God's saving grace?

We cannot know God the Father without knowing Jesus Christ - God the Son. The earth and sky declare the glory of the Lord, and we are called to praise and exult in Him, not glorify created things.

I see no need to raise these questions with children unless they ask about them. A question like, "who is god?" Deserves an answer like, "all living things", "we respect all living things", because "life is very special". Why would anyone say much more than this to a child?

WOW! What a joy to know that Starhawk is included in the religion forums of these respected media institutions. I read the "Belief" section in Newsweek and have a great deal of respect for its fairness and integrity.

But in this difficult time of religious fanaticism, getting enlightened wisdom in any way, shape or form about love and spirit is a wonder.....and a necessity.

Thanks to all involved for making this happen.

Peace....

Daniel

Hoorah! for this website. I'm very grateful to see this manifest. May Love and understanding grow in this world. I appreciate your special voice, Starhawk. No need to respond. I'm just speaking up to support.