Climate Change: A Moral Imperative to Act

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Could we stop with the chicken little syndrome. Not all scientists agree. A certain specialist scientific community mostly agree. That does not make it a fact. Quite frankly no one really knows what is going on. 30 years ago it was believed we were in Global cooling. Now it's global warming. Who knows, maybe we are getting out of the ice age, maybe it's the suns rays. Nothing has been made clear yet and it's time to stop running around, screaming and shouting and otherwise panicking.

It's time to get our collective head out of our collective arses and stop being a bunch of intolerant boobs to those we don't agree with. It's time to stop blaming the evil corporations and finding REALISTIC ways of working with them. It's time to stop wishing for a utopian reality and start working on a pragmatic solution. THat means we listen to those uber corporate neo con and conservative republican boobs that many of yall so hate and implement what they have to say if it makes sense. It means we dont' just listen to greenpeace, we listen to the nuclear energy people to.

Tim is right. Starhawk does not speak for all of us. Pagan doesnt neccesarilly mean your a earth worshipping, passive, neo hippy. That may be a case for the majority that are out of the closet, but some of us, aren't. Speak for yourselves and only yourselves.

For the love of the Gods, try practising some of that tolerance and acceptance you toss around. For instance, your way isn't the only way and you dont' get to make all the rules. Sometimes those evil republicans may just be right and know what is good too.

Frustrated moderate independant.

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Hi, Tim.

I think enough's said on the previous topic: I've said I have my own concerns about Starhawk's presentation, I just don't think it's productive to go on the *attack* about em, particularly here. Partly cause I simply weary of the endless 'definitions' debates.

As for stereotypes, well, I think it's fair to say Pagans lean heavily toward the quite 'liberal,' but your implied characterizations of that are really pretty biased of themselves.

Personally, I'd say, if you think I'm vegetarian, come over for dinner, sometime. :) I'm not anti-gun, (I'm actually quite a good shot, myself,) ...but I despise the gun lobby. I think abortion is something that I'd never do, but don't believe the state has any right whatsoever to decide for women, particularly when mothers aren't exactly treated well in this country. So I'm pro *choice.* I've supported Pagan mothers (Motherhood's sacred, remember?) both in ending pregnancies and, more often, actually, carrying them through.

The hunt's a sacred activity, too, (I've limited that to stalking in the past, as my archery isn't quite that confident to do it cleanly, but hey. ) I've lived on a Pagan homestead (full of *very* 'liberal' folks, where we killed our own dinner...

I'm anti-death penalty because *it doesn't work,* ...it's an expensive, unfairly-applied way to get cops killed cause it makes criminals feel they have nothing to *lose* once they've done a capital crime, practiced sword-work with liberal Pagans in Texas, and live (in town) in one of the most rural areas there *are,* where I help my neighbors and hope no one raises a lynch mob or anything. :)

And, well, generally think the 'right wing' is out of its mind, doubly so if they support the current administration that insists we 'don't count' when it comes to religious freedoms.

But, hey. Point there was really that this is the *Pagan* community, ...and we don't have to polarize like that.

And if someone believes we're all in lockstep with Starhawk, then, that's a much better place to start than when people believe the defamation.

Peace.

PaganPlace,

To your concerns about insisting individuals "make all statements conditional", or "insist on treating people as though they aren't allowed to do otherwise, and that if they don't, they're oppressing a couple right wing sects somewhere", I've address those but let me reiterate.

This all comes down to levels of expectations. Starhawk is not a high school dropout working at Walmart as a janitor and fancies herself a Druid. She is well educated, has been within the community roughly 30 years, has written a fair number of books, is an active and vocal political activist, and a public speaker. We simply can not approach Starhawk's work with the same level of expectation one would reading essays by John or Jane Doe Pagan.

This is also not a message board hosted by a free forum website put together by a few buddies wanting to connect with "like minds" and debate color correspondences. This is an online interfaith journal created by Newsweek & The Washington Post. There is an expectation that Starhawk is speaking authoritatively about Pagans when she is speaking about Pagans. That when she is speaking about Pagans that she does not mean just Reclaiming, or just Goddess Traditions, or just Wicca. You may assume that she is because of the tolerances you have built up dealing with Pagans in general, but Mr. & Mrs. Christian or Mr. & Mrs. Muslim does not have that experience and will not make that assumption.

Regarding the "a couple right wing sects somewhere" comment, I would not be too quick to assume that conservative Pagans are few and far between. It has been my experience that generally Pagans are divided into the "blue" and "red" states as much as the rest of the country. Move outside the urban areas and it is more typical then not to find Pagans who are pro-gun owner rights, pro-life, pro-death penalty, pro-military. I have found many that were not only meat eaters, but also hunters and those that even raise and butcher their own food. For those that want to classify Pagans as "country dwellers", these are them.

Yours in the Gods.

To wit, if you don't want to accept someone's *outside* definition of us as 'Irreligious hedonists,'

(Which, frankly, I see a lot of cultural reconstructionists do: some of whom aren't even Pagan themselves. They absent themselves from the community dialogue except to maybe invade Internet Pagan forums and try to 'prove' how anyone's Paganism that may happen to have different standards and priorities is a) Incorrect (irreligious?) and b) Empty hedonism... then whine about 'Those people won't accept my definition of all of them! It's cause they're fluffy and ignorant and mean and oppressive!')

I have a lot of respect for that work, but it doesn't entitle them, ( or *me* ) to go ascribing bad motives to people in order to mark territory.

Yeah, I weary of that sniping. I do see it in terms of priorities and perspective. Just about everyone, in one way or another is trying to bring the ancient into the modern, and I think the real issue being worked out has much to do with antiquity vs modernity, and a lot of the furballs don't get much informing done, either way.

I'm not saying your way of doing stuff is *wrong,* just that I think you're being unfair about this discussion.

Peace. Gotta go do something.

""Paganism is not a minority religion; it is a group of minority religions. Having one person represent "us" make that person responsible for expressing the diversity.""

I don't really much disagree there, that's a real concern, but sometimes I weary of the idea that any Pagan should:

A) Make all statements conditional,
or

B) Insist on treating treating people as though they aren't allowed to do otherwise, and that if they don't, they're oppressing a couple right wing sects somewhere.

I'm all for more voices, and I try not to generalize without *saying* I'm generalizing. I just think the acrimony is missing the point.

If we don't have dogmatic authorities, stop treating people like they actually are (or are trying to be) one. Stop seeing anyone trying to be "A Pagan voice" as necessarily trying to be "*The* Pagan voice."

That goes both ways.

By all means, add your voice. I'm just saying there's no need to seem *paranoid* about it. People who have the idea they must *discredit* anyone they can construe as too authoritarian might wanna remember that. As you will.

PaganPlace,

Your statement, "I think it's precisely *because* this is an interfaith forum that maybe we should resist the temptation to 'split hairs' about some of the ongoing debates in the community" is where we are disagreeing. Paganism is not a minority religion; it is a group of minority religions. Having one person represent "us" make that person responsible for expressing the diversity. Can that person get every little detail about every religion correct? No, but they can choose to not speak in absolutes, provide some diversity of thinking, and possibly hock something other then just her books when giving additional source material for the readers.

There may not be a 'perfect, all-inclusive *definition*' of Pagan but the dictionary does do a pretty good job:

1. one of a people or community observing a polytheistic religion, as the ancient Romans and Greeks.
2. a person who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim.
3. an irreligious or hedonistic person

Source: Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)

We also have to realize that there are those that DO NOT want an all-inclusive definition, and that is part of my ranting here. Just as there are those within some "established religions" (one comes to mind) that will state that if one does not share their particular view then they are not a real *whatever*, so to do we have those people. Pagans 'extremists' just tend to use a lot of disclaimer words mixed in with the "what Pagans believe" rhetoric, but point out specific traditions that contradict their 'opinion' and you'll see their true nature appear.

Regarding Reclaiming and the "finer points of what constitutes Wicca" let me just say that I'm taking Starhawk's bio stating "prominent voice in modern Wiccan spirituality" into consideration and the fact that her books are used by many who do classify themselves as Wiccan. No one can deny she is part of the "community at large".

I believe the whole issue of some people believing "Pagans don't do charitable/good works" is a different and completely separate issue. You'll get no argument with me about that one. Pagans generally do not proselytize, (I say generally because I have encounter some that advocate this as a reaction to other religions) so you most likely not see a "Pagan" soup kitchen but you will find "Pagans" volunteering in a soup kitchen.

The differences between Pagans who are politically active and Reclaiming is the differences between a Christian who is politically active and the Christian Coalition. We (the generally we) can't scream about the separation of Church & State and then get upset that there are those pushing for laws based on their religion, and then advocate or condone a Pagan group that does the very same thing (we can but then we'd be hypocrites).

Yours in the Gods.

As for Starhawk's activism, and Reclaiming's, (let's not get into the finer points of what constitutes 'Wicca,') well, *sure,* that's controversial. It *should* be discussed, just, I think, not disowned or vilified. No denying she's part of the tapestry, just as are most Reconstrustionist types.

Yeah, I'd go so far as to say the 'typical Pagan' doesn't play Starhawk's way, (I can think of a particular gaffe that much was made of some time ago,) but the Reclaiming folks I've met are, by the by, not as you seem to portray them. Pretty awesome people, in general.

In some ways, I'm reminded of the common Christian perception that 'Pagans don't do charitable/good works.'

Of *course* we do. We just don't generally *advertise* it. Partly because we have no agenda to convert people, so what's the point of *that* when someone's in need. The point is they're in need.

I don't know how many times I've heard, 'Angels sent you,' ...what are you going to do, risk freaking someone out when they're obviously having a bad day?

At the same time, Pagan groups can have a hard time finding a food bank that will *take* donations from a holiday festival's food drive. (Guess no one's hungry enough to eat something from a can a Pagan touched, some places, eh? ...or is it that some people are more attached to the idea Pagans don't do these things than they are in actually feeding the hungry?)

Plenty of Pagans are politically-active, though, and not cause anyone's saying, 'The Goddess demands this.'

Cause of what's there to be done.

Sure, there's a little discomfort if anyone's too vocal in mentioning they aren't with a church or something.

But, sure, you can say the Goddess weeps. She wept a f'n river.

More than one, I'm given to understand.

Fair enough. I just think that there's a difference between *generalizing* about the 'community at large' and being 'exclusionary and dogmatic,' or being too sensitive to a prominent Pagan we don't happen to agree with on some points as though it mustneeds be some kind of tyrranical dogmatism when someone speaks from conviction.

I think it's *because* Pagans tend to "kind of take anything anyone writes with a grain of salt, and will simply take from it what they see as useful, discarding the rest." that we don't have to appear *threatened* by something like what Starhawk's doing and saying here.

For the most part, I was pointing out that you seem to be interpreting what's said in the worst possible way, at times. Certainly, there's other points of view out there, and if anyone's read this far down the thread, they probably won't mind hearing about em, but implying people are dishonest or uneducated, or even ripping into isn't going to 'represent the community' well, or even educate anyone who's 'angry at men' right now. (I mostly stayed out of that, cause I'd guess Adv was too busy defending herself personally to really hear anything, anyway.)

I think it's precisely *because* this is an interfaith forum that maybe we should resist the temptation to 'split hairs' about some of the ongoing debates in the community: it's possible here's where we're actually disagreeing:

To put it simply, I don't think the most important thing about 'representing the community' right now is for *each and every* speaker to 'get it completely right' to every Pagan's satisfaction. I would much rather educate someone who thinks we're all all about Starhawk than deal with someone who gets the message 'They're all confused, and at each others' throats, so maybe the defamation is true' out of stuff like this.

The Internet, by the nature of the medium, tends to be a lot better for debating than communicating the things which *do* connect us, and *do* make us a rich and vibrant and valid religious family.

I don't think we *can* control things such as to have this 'perfect, all-inclusive *definition*' of Pagan beliefs, and then expect everyone who speaks to represent that perfectly: that'd be futile. I think the most that can be done is to try and describe the community at large, maybe build up some pictures of 'Yer typical Pagan,' ...some that are at least *recognizeable* to us.

This is a dangerous time for us. Right now the mass media seems to think it's a valid debate whether or not we're part of some conspiracy to recruit kids to 'evil' via Harry Potter. The best speaker in the world will tend to get cut down to the same old soundbytes in articles about us. We don't have the *luxury* of 'getting it perfect.'

So I think acrimony over some of our ongoing internal discourse is counterproductive.
See what I'm saying? I think we agree on the situation, ...this is a matter of priorities, I suppose.

*Yours* in the Gods. :)

PaganPlace,

I think you may have taken some of the comments which were in response to people like Terra, Adjuvant, and yourself as comments also directed a Starhawk. Some where, but I think I was being pretty clear on what I was attributing to her and what I was directing to those I was responding to.

In speaking about values, if you had stated that the values of many Pagans aren't written down, I probably would not have pointed it out. Since we are discussing representing the beliefs of the "community at large" your statement was just another example of a person making a definitive statement that is ultimately untrue.

Now when we talk about Starhawk and overreaching trying to define everyone, I think I've also been very clear. This all comes down to levels of expectation. Some of the people here defending Starhawk's work seem to be approaching it with the same level of expectation one would reading these essays on a Pagan website or publication. Most Pagans will kind of take anything anyone writes with a grain of salt, and will simply take from it what they see as useful, discarding the rest.

The level of expectation here is completely different. The target audience is different. For many of the people reading these essays, they are either completely ignorant of Pagan religions, have fallen into stereotypical ideas about Pagans, or have been fed complete lies. There is a need to educate the public and that can not be done if everything is written from a personal perspective. But even if she did continue to write from a personal perspective, it's as easy as stating clearly what is being written comes from her Tradition to not mislead those that do not know. I know what it's like to forget how small a community we really are and think that people just know what "we" are talking about. America is something like 80% Christian, and most of them don't know. Responsibility to the community is paramount. If Starhawk does not want that responsibility, I believe she should limit her comments exclusively to Wicca, or Goddess Traditions, or Reclaiming, or herself and state it as such.

As far as the 'evangelical' comment, it was a crossover from another thread, so it may have seemed out of context. I have to say though, while the comment wasn't directed at Starhark, I would probably classify her that way. Really now, a core principle of the Tradition she helped found is political activism. It's blatant. It's one thing to use religion as a moral compass that guides your decisions, but wrapping political activism (no matter which side of a cause) in religious dogma creates self-righteous indignation and the intolerance of different views. Just look at some of the language Starhawk uses in the essays here. In my opinion there is little difference in saying "our Goddess weeps at our wars" and "Jesus weeps for the bloodshed of the innocent unborn."

Yours in the Gods.

Ah, sorry if I messed up some attributions. It does seem we're talking past each other on a few points, and this may be why. :)

No, I don't 'believe in' Starhawk, the way you seem to be implying, ...but I don't think she's necessarily overreaching in speaking as a Pagan in the way that seems to bother some people: as in, I don't think it's necessarily trying to define everyone in or connected to 'the community' just to try and describe it and speak from it. (Or to it, for that matter.)

Neither is it 'speaking in absolutes' to say 'these above-described commonly-held values aren't written down.' I was describing how many, yet palpable *unwritten* values we have. Sure, you can *write* some things down, but don't expect 'Pagans' to react to it like holy writ or something. You yourself certainly wouldn't, but I think that is often projection to say others might.

As to ascribing certain 'motivations and agendas' to people, well, for my part, I think you might be motivated in some way to ascribe these things to others.

As for mine? Well, I don't know. I think we're rightfully leery of religious 'authority' and any 'cults of personality' that might develop, ...to a fault, never mind inadequately, but sometimes I think 'we' tend to jump at shadows of it and maybe not understand 'each other.'

And I resent being mischaracterized by people who are doing so. The way you've just spoken to me seems to speak volumes of your own assumptions and biases. I do get tired of the sniping. And you have no *idea* what I've 'taken the time to study,' as you so flippantly say. There's a bias right there. It colors how you *read* things. And what I see as misunderstandings *show.*

As for what the concluding statement means, well. I think there's a lot of folks out there who on one hand want to say, 'We're different from this Pagan thing,' and at the same time define the whole religious movement to fit their particular part of the diversity... or snipe at anyone who tries to describe us as a community. (or speak for themselves, for that matter.)

If I were actually seeing 'evangelical Goddess monotheism' here, as you seemingly-scornfully term it, I'd be debating a few points about that, myself. But just cause someone says, 'The Goddess' doesn't mean they're only accepting of a single Deity. But if that's all they want to worship or talk about, well, that's for them, too.

I suppose if you want *my* motivations, sometimes I feel caught between some people who've all but *given up* on scholarship, and some that think everything *stopped* with St. Patrick or the Norse equivalent or whatever. If you want to say someone's 'doing it wrong,' when they honor their ancestral Gods, or whoever, well, sometimes there's valid points, and sometimes I just want to say, 'Well, where were *you?*'

In other words, sometimes I think many Pagans internally-segregate ourselves based on opinions in ways that the community doesn't require. (no one said anyone *had* to be part of 'the community,' however you define that, either.)

Some of the sniping about 'definitions' pains me. It's always hard to define, when you're in the middle of something like this, I think. There are pretty exciting things that have been developing in this *hard-to-strictly-define Pagan community.* Some of the theology that comes out, certainly. Also things we share when we think we're at odds.

Heh. It's like a family, in a lot of ways. The 'Pagan thing' has a lot of inputs from a lot of lineages, ...and a lot of 'kids' keeping it honest and sometimes maybe asserting their independence more than exercising it.

I think the family get-togethers are pretty darn cool, though.

Just cause I think someone's earned some respect and consideration doesn't mean it's unreserved, or that I or anyone else is 'sheep.' I don't, either characterize what she's saying here as 'harsh and extremist.'

And I wonder why you seem to think so. I've said as much in Starhawk's case, just above.

Sorry this one's long-winded, too. Just trying to 'expose my motivations' for you.

PaganPlace,

1. I never said I felt marginalized by the Pagan by the Pagan community. I said that there are those within the Pagan community that seek to marginalize and disenfranchise fellow Pagans who do not share the same beliefs as they do, and that Starhawk's writing in absolutes and placing personal agenda before the community was a perfect example of that.

2. It was your buddy Terra who brought up the Old Laws, you are addressing the wrong person. I stated that I did not believe either Starhark or Reclaiming adopted the Ardane. So, you'll get no disagreement from me regarding the Old Laws and who they supposedly apply to.

3. Saying Pagan ethics are not "written down" is another one of those 'talking in absolutes' again. It's amazing how the people who accuse me are the ones actually doing that. If you were to take the time to study some of the "more specific sorts of paths" you would know that.

4. I never accused Starhark of being "prophet inventing source material" or attempting to become the feminist messiah. I simply made some observations and asked some questions based on the bio she provides to the public. You can place your faith in whoever you choose, but there is only one religion I know of that defines itself in terms sheep and a shepherd.

5. Your conclusion seems to agree with what I have been writing this whole time, so I fail to see the ultimate point of your very long winded post. Honestly though, I was confused with Adjuvant accusations of close-mindedness until the true colors were eventual shown, and my closed-mindedness was slanguage for not accepting the true-truth of Goddess worship and abandoning male ways. Maybe you'll eventually expose your true motivation as well.

Yours in the Gods.

Well, Tim, I'm sorry if you feel at all 'marginalized' in the Pagan community. I don't think it's terribly unfair to characterize Starhawk as somewhere in the American Pagan mainstream in many ways. Too often, there's a lot of sensitivity about this, really on both sides of the internal debates that come from our internal diversity. It can't really be escaped that that mainstream is highly influenced by modern Wicca, (quoting bits of someone's Ardanes won't help here: most of the Gardnerian and Alexandrian Wiccans aren't the scary, unreasonable would-be authority figures that many others like to portray them as: actually, the ones I've met usually know the place of their oathbound materials, and don't think their founders were some kind of prophets. )

There's a lot of verbal scuffles between 'eclectics' and people of more specific sorts of paths, shall we say, (Personally, I don't consider myself 'eclectic:' ...I just have a lot of different ancestors. :) ....and there's a lot of people who get upset that the community at large may be represented by beliefs they don't hold.

But at the same time, the outer world is always insisting 'None of you have any values!' Sure we do, they're just not imposed or written down (Or, for that matter, agreed upon in any authoritative way.) But, they're there. Maybe organically, but they're there. You're using a few to decry what you see as people being authoritarian. :)

Stuff like the Ardanes doesn't serve as any such that you can really pick a bit of and say, 'This is what you believe, (not even of most 'Traditional Wiccans.') ...at least not in the broader community and subculture that by and large doesn't have or seek access to them. (I sometimes joke that 'Witch Wars' are the kids honouring a time-honoured tradition of learning things the hard way, though I haven't seen one in many years. :) ) g

You've got to be careful of assuming that this is bout some prophet inventing source material: especially when sort of set loose, Wicca grew into something else: (And, heck, not only survived, but thrived when the common ideas of the time from Margaret Murray got basically discredited: that's part of the growth process.)

We need to give each other a bit of credit: the *world* is our teacher. I figure, 'Enlightenment' is *inevitable.* Sooner or later. Some think Starhawk kind of grandstands a lot. She's also a very real and influential member of the community, not an exemplar of perfection. I certainly don't agree with everything she says or does. But I don't mind calling her an 'Elder,' though. Not at all.

And I've met a *lot* more elders, both quiet ones and activist ones.

That doesn't mean there is or needs to be 'authority' in the way of the new religions. Ancient Pagans didn't like come up to each other and go, 'Hello, fellow Pagan, isn't it good that we're the same kind of religion?'

People just didn't think that way.

If *we* find ourselves doing so, is that cause we *need* to, or is it just an old habit from the religious cultures we live among?

Adjuvant,

I did keep asking myself why you were accusing me of being closed-minded when what I have repeatedly advocated was tolerance, acceptance, inclusively, and recognition of all Pagan paths, then I read your angry response to Victoria under the "To Be A True Friend of the Jewish People" essay. I have no issue with those who wish to embrace Goddess monotheism, but the evangelical nature of some within the female spirituality movement is as harsh and intolerant of others beliefs as any other extremist from any of the "established religions". I can clearly see now why you did not want me and others to point out that other Pagans and Pagan beliefs exist. The idea that many Wiccans embrace the God aspect or that there are Pagans that worship pantheons of mixed gender must twist you to no end.

My heart goes out to you. Enlightenment comes with knowing that there are many paths to the top of the mountain. I hope you one day realize that.

Yours in the Gods.

Tim

When someone has their mind made up and has chosen to close it off then no new information can enter. Too bad. For and open mind has a chance for enlightenment and wisdom. I choose not to waist my time debating with you anymore. There are people of real need I can spend my precious time serving. Enjoy your hollow victories and self chosen ignorance and closed heart. May you find peace in your little world.

Adjuvant,

I agree with your statement, "the endless fight to be the one on top, the only one, the only truth, the ultimate truth, the only way it can be done, the only way to follow, the only way is to do it my way or some other person who lived long ago and a lot of people quote them so they must be right's way," but I think you address the wrong person.

My whole issue has been that there is not only one, not only one truth, no ultimate truth, not one and only way it can be done, not just one and only way to follow, and not only way to do things. My point has been that in a venue like this, where Starhawk is the only Pagan panelists in an online journal hosted by the world's best known news sources (Newsweek & The Washington Post), the Pagan community in all its forms and all its diversity should be placed before personal agenda. I provided verifiable facts that refute Starhark talking in absolutes about Pagans, and you want to make it an issue about credentials. Member size changes nothing in the playground, and it changes nothing here.

Pagans fight to be recognized and not be marginalized and disenfranchised by the general population, it is a shame that there are those that need to fight to be recognized and not be marginalized and disenfranchised from within our own community.

We are all Pagan: Asatru, Celtic Reconstruction, Discordian, Druidry, Eclectic Wicca, Kemetic, Etruscan, Finnish Paganism, Hellenic Polythiest, Mesopotamian, Mithraism, Numinism, Religio Romana, Romuva, Stregheria, Traditional Wicca, and many others.

There are those that present "information" as if there is "only one, the only truth, the ultimate truth, the only way it can be done", but it was not me or those others that refuted the generalization and presumptions made in this article that acted that narrow-minded.

Yours in the Gods.

Tim and others of like mind,

This is why humans have such a difficult time getting along with each other. The endless fight to be the one on top, the only one, the only truth, the ultimate truth, the only way it can be done, the only way to follow, the only way is to do it my way or some other person who lived long ago and a lot of people quote them so they must be right's way.

We spend or should I say waist all this time on empty words, when if we would just put egos aside and humble ourselves to the fact that we do not have all the answers and neither does the other person, no matter how long ago they lived or how important someone thinks they were. Who cares who came first or who said what or when and instead use all this information, shared by wise women and men, productively and towards the simple goal of sharing this wonderful island in the universe called Mother Earth and showing selfless kindness and to each other. This is the only truth that will make a difference.

Spiritual is a very personal thing. Some might share a similar way yet ultimately each is uniquely different. Living together in harmony should be our goal. Harmony with each other and all life around and in us. Believe what you will, share what you believe, live your spirituality by example and action and in doing so let others to the same.

Critizism is not constructive nor helpful. Sharing information and ideas as well as listening to the information and ideas of another with an open mind and heart. No one person nor many people have the one right way of doing or knowing everything. We are all learning as we go and benefiting from those who have shared and learned before us.

Adjuvant,

You have asked what have I done do show that somehow I have the best knowledge about Pagans. I have provided here information (not opinion) and sources to verify it. My personal credentials are irrelevant in the face of verifiable information.

What history did cite? What I did was quote Aristotle, who stated basically that a statement of fact is either true or false regardless of one's personal opinion. So again, we have the verifiable facts that I have stated verses Starhark's opinion presented as absolutes about Pagans. This is not "blindly spued or accepted opinions of history"; this is the present day Pagan community.

I don't need to assume or presume that anyone reading Starhawk's words will some how be misled. It is here on these pages. From her initial post "Some Basic Definitions" which were very wicca-centric, to the posts of Pagan diversity which excluded commentary on any specific religions outside of Wicca, to her "Goddess Weeps" essay, and all the associated comments. Look even within this one:

Greg wrote, "Pardon my total ignorance but how many branches of Wiccan/Pagan faith are there? What are the differences between Wicca and Pagan faiths?"

Jahadist wrote, "Never knew there are sects, schisms, "churches" or school of thoughts within the pagan community."

And let's not forget I was not the only dissenter:

TEA wrote, "...it is both god and goddess that renders imperative validity, and not singleness of goddess" and then was immediately rebuked by PaganPlace and Terra Gazelle for not accepting Starhark in absolutes about Pagans.

Mandi wrote, "The pagan community, as Starhawk so easily conglomerates, (rather than addressing groups of individuals with very diverse beliefs- and some, gasp, don't include bio-feminism in their practices)..." She continues by stating, "Sounds a bit like the proselytizing that pagans complain about actually."

Mandi also writes, "Placing earth worship in the center of the issue is a nice way to keep people divided into spiritual hierarchy", and then asks, "is Starhawk a politician, or a religious leader?"

Now if we want to hold to the idea of credentials though, does anyone know what prior Pagan experience Starhawk had before founding Reclaiming in the late 70's? I've read several bios on her (including those on her personal site and on Reclaiming's) and none seem to provide her with any credentials prior to founding the Reclaiming tradition except a vague reference from the Reclaiming website which states, "The Reclaiming Collective was a group of women and men in the San Francisco Bay Area which formed in 1978-80, originally an outgrowth of classes in magic taught by Starhawk and Diane Baker." There seems to be only tidbits of her life made available prior to founding Reclaiming and nothing that seems to connect her to any form of Paganism including Wicca. It almost seems as though Reclaiming was a "feminist religion" custom created specifically as a way to reaffirm her own ecofeminist opinions and not as a branching off of a previous Pagan experience.

How or why she was picked over other prominent Pagans is anyone's guess. Maybe that's a question best addressed to Newsweek and The Washington Post. Maybe she was just the one "they" knew of best because of her feminist, environmental, and anti-war activism. Who know? There are definitely Pagans with much more substantial credentials and histories.

Yours in the Gods.

Tim

So...where are your credentials and what have you done do show that somehow you have the best knowledge about Pagans? Why are you not then a panelist on this forum? It is easy to criticize from the side lines no matter how much history you quote. A knowledgable person is aware that history is written by people to serve a self-serving purpose. Just look at the history books here in the USA. Most of it is fiction, manipulated facts to create them in the best light. Real history and truth must be looked for, not blindly spued or accepted.
And to assume or presume that anyone reading Starhawk's words will some how be misled. What form of ultimate knowing have you to say this? No matter what is said or quoted there will be people who choose only what they want to hear and latch on it.Then there are those who continue to search for their personal truths and will not be swayed by anyone's vision, but will make their own.

Adjuvant,

Any reasonably intelligent person can see by what I have written that I have not been dismissive of Starhawk's beliefs or the beliefs of her tradition, but I have been critical of her talking in absolutes about Pagans.

"For if any one thinks truly that a person is sitting, yet, when that person has risen, this same opinion, if still held, will be false." - Aristotle, Categories

If you believe that I am writing here to change the hearts and minds of those Pagans that believe in, support, or defend the kind of statements that Starhark makes then you are mistaken. I am here so that the non-Pagan readers know that Starhawk and Reclaiming are not typical, that all Pagans do not have a leftist socialist "ecofeminists" agenda, and that Pagan does not equal wicca-ish. Would Jihadist been presented with a fairly representative list of Pagan religions if I was not here? I don't think so. Starhawk wrote two essays on "diversity" yet did not take that opportunity to show the truly diverse nature of Pagan religions.

As I said previously... In this situation, where Starhawk in the only Pagan panelists in an online journal hosted by the world's best known news sources (Newsweek & The Washington Post), she needs, in my opinon, to be held responsible for expressing the diversity of the Pagan community. Pagans are not a large enough segment of society to demand several panelists, so she needs to be held accountable for what she writes on "our" behalf. It's one thing when it is a site or publication where there are a multitude of Pagan opinions being presented but here she is the lone voice. She is, whether we like it or not, the public representative for the Pagan community and the average person who knows nothing about Pagans but knows Starhawk is the "Pagan panelist" will presume she is talking about all Pagans when Starhawk's activist feminist Paganism is not truly representative of the Pagan community.

Yours in the Gods.

Tim,

Any reasonably intelligent person knows that when someone speaks it is their words and their opinion, whether experienced, accumulated knowledge, or learned from history. To believe what one person says is absolute for everyone else that might have a similar relation is simply a sign of lack of understanding that truth can only be decided by you as an individual. To blindly follow is a weakness of the mind. That is exactly what most religion exploits, the weak of mind and spirit. Hopefully anyone who is Pagan understands this and chooses to create and understand their own unique spirituality. What Starhawk shares is her wisdom and it is for each individual to decide for themselves what is best for them. It is not for you or anyone else to say what is right or wrong about it. Share your ideas without dismissing another's. One person's chosen facts can be another's fiction. That is true communication.

Adjuvant,

Did you read this essay? Starhawk is not talking about HER beliefs, she is talking about what Pagans believe. If you have read my responses within this thread you would know that if she had qualified her statements as being HER beliefs or the beliefs of HER tradition exclusively then there would be no issue. She is entitled to HER beliefs. She's NOT entitled to marginalize and disenfranchise other Pagans and Pagan traditions.

In this situation, where Starhawk in the only Pagan panelists in an online journal hosted by the word's best known news sources (Newsweek & The Washington Post), she needs, in my opinon, to be held responsible for expressing the diversity of the Pagan community. Pagans are not a large enough segment of society to demand several panelists, so she needs to be held accountable for what she writes on "our" behalf. It's one thing when it is a site or publication where there are a multitude of Pagan opinions being presented but here she is the lone voice. She is, whether we like it or not, the public representative for the Pagan community and the average person who knows nothing about Pagans but knows Starhawk is the "Pagan panelist" will presume she is talking about all Pagans when Starhawk's activist feminist Paganism is not truly representative of the Pagan community.

Yours in the Gods.

Oh so obvious...Tim
Pagan is different for every person. So you see different than Starhawk or others. Fine! That is your way you need to understand it. That is why there is the endless cycle of hate and violence on the planet, most caused by differences in a person's faith. Why is it that you and others like you need to have it your way or some way you think is the only way. Believe in your way and live it. Hey I am different. Great! So are you. What difference does it make how or what someone believes in something. It will never be the same for each person. So get of the top and start walking side by side. You will fine kindness is the first step to an open mind and heart and to true understanding.

Adjuvant,

So, a blatant misrepresentation of Pagans and the Pagans community should be tolerated because men are... what... pigs?

Why do men always need to be on top?!

Truth be told - factual human physiology: "males are just modified females".

Male created, manipulated religious patriarchy claims that god took a rib from Adam and created Eve. Sorry not the case. Women and men have the same number of ribs. All human cells have the DNA from their "mothers" in their mitochondria. Males donate only an X or Y and a few superficial characteristics.

My point to this small side bar. As soon as a women shows her strength and intelligence some inadquate feeling male shows up and does everything he can to push her over and jump on top.

Sorry for the bluntness of my words, but there are times where simple politeness gets ignored.

Sparrow,

You wrote: "I was simply showing that the newsweek bio of her clarifies that she is a prominent voice of a general spiritually, speaking as a member of a specific religious group."

That's one of the points. When it comes to Pagans and Pagan beliefs, there are nothing that can be classified as "general spiritually". There are no beliefs that can be assigned to all Pagans. Sure you can make general statements about all Wiccans, all Hellenics, or all Celtic Recons but there is nothing that crosses aeverything uniformly.

You wrote: "I'm curious. To me, your comments continue to sound aggressive and demeaning towards other Pagans..."

There is an element within the Pagan community which is as (in some cases more) dogmatic and intolerant as anything the "Christian right" could throw at us, and I am of the opinion that "we" need to clean our house before criticizing others.

You wrote: "...you didn't respond to the part of my message that suggested that you find someone who you think is equally qualified in Paganism to add to the panel."

Tough question but I would say my short list would include Raymond Buckland, Janet Farrar, Christopher Penczak, or even Yvonne Frost. Maybe even someone like Fritz Jung, owner of Witchvox.

You wrote: "...and accept that there are different Pagans out there, thereby standing by your own principle of impartiality."

I do understand that there are different Pagans out there, that's the whole point. But that understanding and acceptance does not stretch so far as to allow Pagans to be biased and prejudiced against other Pagans. Most of us find it intolerable when there is a claim that Christianity is the only "true religion" or that this denomination or that is the only "true" form of Christian worship, I find the behavior demonstrated here (first my Starhark's article and even more by some that have tried to defend her) to be just as intolerable.

Yours in the Gods.

Terra,

What a nice sidestep of the issue of Starhark's (and your) intolerances. As an "Activist Pagan" I highly doubt that she subscribes to the Ardane since it states that the Goddess' power is granted by the God: "...He resigned all His power to Her" and "...the High Priestess should ever mind that all power comes from Him". It is not exactly something feminist Pagans adopt.

And so do you argue that Starhawk's intolerance, deceit, marginalization, and disenfranchisement of other Pagans should go unchallenged because she is an "Elder" within her tradition? Do you say the same about Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson when they do the same, or is that different? Yours is an absolutely hypocritical a position. Enough said.

Yours in the Gods.

Tim,

When I wrote that, I was referring to the following statement you made:

"In my opinion Newsweek/Washington Post should make it clear, if Starhawk is unwilling to do it herself, that she speaks for herself and her self-created religion and not for Pagans or even Wiccans in general."

I was simply showing that the newsweek bio of her clarifies that she is a prominent voice of a general spiritually, speaking as a member of a specific religious group.

I totally agree with you that the autonomous structure of Pagan groups could be more explicitly dilineated. However, I don't think that in bashing Starhawk you will achieve that goal. Maybe if you politely and constructively wrote to the Washington Post to clarify the difference between the autonomy of Pagan believe systems versus the *relative* uniformity of some of the other mainstream religions, they would be able to see why it is necessary to make a distinction. Perhaps if you politely addressed Starhawk herself, she would be more than willing to write a post on the complexities of the diverse and autonomous structures in Paganism, which may be difficult for some people from some mainstream religious structures to grasp. I believe that a positive approach to this, as opposed to name-calling and belittling of other Pagan beliefe systems, will help you to achieve what you appear to want.

I'm curious. To me, your comments continue to sound aggressive and demeaning towards other Pagans, and you didn't respond to the part of my message that suggested that you find someone who you think is equally qualified in Paganism to add to the panel.

If you know a Pagan, who is capable of being on this panel and perhaps has been overlooked, then suggest them. Write to the Washington Post, write to that person. Do something constructive. I respect your religious principles, but perhaps addressing what you consider lack of imapartiality in a more constructive way, would allow you to lighten up a bit, and accept that there are different Pagans out there, thereby standing by your own princicple of impartiality.

Sparrow

Tim,
How very rude you are...I do not see a difference between elders as they all give. I would treat your's with the same honor as I treat mine. Read the laws... you claim you were once Wicca you should know them.

You are insulting and arrogant. My faith teaches better... do you think the old ways that you try to follow would approve of your better then thou behavior. You are no better then what you accuse Starhawk and I of...or the behavior of so many Christians. A fundi is a fundi.
I will no longer answer you as it is a waste of time. I appologized for my rudeness to you, but you continue being the tail end of Epona.

Adjuvant,

You stated, "Starhawk, (and by the way showing respect for someone no matter how much you disagree with them is the first step in working together) has actually lived her beliefs by acting and living and sharing them. What have you done beside ridicule and belittle what you don't understand or choose to ignore?"

I can't disagree that she has "lived her beliefs by acting and living and sharing them"... my issue is that her "beliefs" marginalize and attempts to disenfranchise those Pagans and Pagan traditions that do not wholeheartedly support her in her causes.

And you are right, this should not be about who has the "better" beliefs or whatever... so I point to Starhark's comments about moral obligation in this article, yet she feels no moral obligation to represent Pagans fairly or to qualify her statements as being hers or of her tradition, not necessarily those of the Pagan community as a whole.

We should all be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains fall out.

Yours in the Gods.

Terra,

First, while the ethics of my religion do specifically state to respect my elders, what makes you think Starhawk is my Elder? What a deplorable tact you have taken. Being shown for your bias against other Pagan religions beyond your own you now choose to attack my religious and spiritual conviction.

Here are a few more principles my religious espouses:

Practice what is just (Πραττε δικαια)
Be impartial (Κοινος γινου)
Despise insolence (Υβριν μισει)
Fear deceit (Δολον φοβου)
Be on your guard (Φυλακη προσεχε)
Tell when you know (Λεγε ειδως)
Teach a youngster (Νεωτερον διδασκε)

Starhark's choice to exclude Pagan practices beyond her own is unjust, lacks impartiality, and is insolent (disrespectful)... and I have an obligation to "fear" and guard against her attempt at deceit, to tell what I know, and to teach.

Does your faith have such ethics?

Yours in the Gods.

Paganplace,
You mentioned Patrick Stewart...that is something that we all ought to march for. It is bad enough some of the Guff we all have to take from the mainstream, but with all the patriotic talk about soldiers and sacrifice...our's gets squat.

I had a member of my group in Iraq, she was the acting Priestess of a group while there. They lost one to death and many to serious injury...no Pentacle or honor for them, wrong symbol.

Have you heard the song Symbol? It's lovely.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wvc_2JXlKAc&mode=related&search=

Yes, we can come from different paths and meet in circle, each revereing our own Gods yet knowing that all is respected.Like you said "Get it done!" If there are Witch Wars it is not about the Gods, but egos and pride.

Namaste,
terra )o(

This is exactly why nothing gets accomplished.
People are to busy arguing about semantics.

Who speaks for who,
Mine is better than yours,
Mine is bigger than yours,
My god is bigger and better than yours,
My belief is better than yours,
I'm smarter than you,
My god is older than yours,
I have more gods than you,
I believe like you only different so you can't say anything because I don't like it,
MY MY MY MY MINE MINE MINE MINE ME ME ME ME EGO EGO EGO

"Arghhhhhhh!"

Shut up or come up with some constructive ideas and lets work together.
Quit fighting about who has the better way of plugging the hole in the boat.
Everyone jump and and start plugging it up or we will all drown. Oh heck... some of you will still be arguing when the water is up to your nose.

Starhawk, (and by the way showing respect for someone no matter how much you disagree with them is the first step in working together) has actually lived her beliefs by acting and living and sharing them. What have you done beside ridicule and belittle what you don't understand or choose to ignore?

Please think, open your mind, let your heart feel love. Try it. It is painless. Well, there is work involved, but then I suppose that is part of the joy of life.

Tim,

Why do you sign off with "Your's in the Gods"?
Where is your Gods when you are berating an elder? I have no idea about you as you are not Wiccan, but I was taught to respect my elders, they give of themselves freely for the good of the community and the Gods.

You have the right to get on me, I was rude and wrong in judgeing you..and I certainly should know better. But Starhawk has done nothing wrong but speak for her own trad. You don't like it, get someone of your trad and have him speak.

I would like to know what path you are on...you have not said. I am just courious.

In Her name,
terra

Sparrow,

I did not question her bio, I addressed what she has written. As I wrote to Jahadist, she has a right to her beliefs but hers are not the beliefs of all Pagans and should not be written as so. I have no problem with "respecting her as one among many", but she too needs to realize that she is only "one among many". I said earlier in this thread that it was one thing when she is posting her rhetoric on Witchvox and Beliefnet because hers was only "one voice" with individuals being able to see that hers were was just "one of many" beliefs... but this is the "main-stream" press and she is projecting her personal beliefs as the beliefs of Pagans. It is not that difficult for her to qualify her commentary with "in my opinion" or "from a Reclaiming perspective". As we all know Starhark is not new to the Pagan world. She knows who and what is out there in the larger community. She's and author and public speak, so I have to believe that her actions are intentionally biased.

Yours in the Gods.

Jahadist,

That was precisely one of the points I made... if Starhark was representing her person faith and beliefs there would be no problem... but when she makes statements that Pagans believe anything she is not talking about herself or her specific tradition, she is talking every person who falls under the umbrella term Pagan. Of course she has a right to her beliefs, but hers are not the beliefs of all Pagans and should not be written as so.

I'm glad you found the information I posted useful. I would dare say that you would not have gotten any idea of the true diversity within the Pagan community from Newsweeks/WashingtionPost's "On Faith" panelist.

Yours in the Gods.

Tim,

I do believe that that Starhawk's bio on here states that she is, "a prominent voice in modern Wiccan spirituality and cofounder of Reclaiming (www.reclaiming.org), an activist branch of modern Pagan religion."

I don't see anything incorrect in those statements. she is *a* (not the only) prominent voice in modern Wiccan *spirituality* (not religion), and co-founder of Reclaiming (a specific) branch of modern Pagan religion.

I can totally agree with you that one voice can't represent all Pagans. However, rather than being angry at Starhawk, perhaps you know and could suggest a different, and equally qualified voice to add to the panelists? I would certainly be interested in seeing how different Pagan voices respond to the same questions, and it could help inform people that there is a wide variety of Pagan paths and viewpoints out there.

I enjoy reading what Starhawk has to say, and I am appreciative that a Pagan voice is on the panelists, most of whom come from Abrahamic faiths. If you are so interested in the diversity in Paganism, would it be possible to respect her as one among many?

be well,
sparrow

Tim,
Thank you! I will have to look up myself on Gardnerian Wicca, Eclectic Wicca, Hellenic Polytheism, Kemetic Reconstructionism, modern Druidry and Celtic Reconstructionism.

Starhawk, now you and others in this thread got me interested in paganism in all its forms and manifestations.

I've met Wiccans before, but was too shy to ask. I find them admirable for being in touch with the Great Mother Goddess of the Earth, the Gods and Mother Nature.

But surely Starhawk has a right to express her faith and beliefs as she see it. Faith is very personal, no? No two Muslim sees their faith in the same way too, with sects and schools of thoughts and interpretations of the Qur'an.

I find Starhawk's views quite mind-opening on many On Faith questions posed, as I found your and posts by others very informative.

Tim, thanks again. It is always a pleasure to read Starhawks articles as well as the threads on it. As it is for me to read on Otterson's articles and the threads that follows. I know little on paganism and Mormons and learn quite a bit here from practicing pagans and Mormons, what they believe, think and feel.

Peace be with you:)

Jahadist,

Despite how Starhark and other self-righteous elitists would have the world believe, there are many individual religions... each with their own denominations... and no two are exactly alike. Gardnerian Wicca is very, very different then Eclectic Wicca despite both calling themselves Wicca. Hellenic Polytheism is very different then Kemetic Reconstructionism. Modern Druidry (despite claims) has little to do with the Celts, and is very different then Celtic Reconstructionism. Each has their own unique history, practices, and theological concepts.

In my opinion Newsweek/Washington Post should make it clear, if Starhawk is unwilling to do it herself, that she speaks for herself and her self-created religion and not for Pagans or even Wiccans in general.

Yours in the Gods.

Tim,
It's okay. I find yours and subsequent posts by others very educational.

Never knew there are sects, schisms, "churches" or school of thoughts within the pagan community:)

A few thoughts.... for what they're worth.

Although there are still a few holdouts, by far the weight of evidence is on the side of human action at least accelerating, if not actually causing, global warming. But even if we lack absolute certainty, should we not do what we can to lessen our contribution to the problem? It would have been wise for the Titanic to have slowed down and kept better watch, even if they were not positively certain that they were going to hit an iceberg!

As Margot Alder, among others, has pointed out, there is a wide spectrum of religious belief, both among Pagans and otherwise, ranging from polytheism through animism, pantheism, to something approaching a functional monotheism, in which there is an essential unity to the Divine, which may manifest itself in various forms. Many Pagans, whether they realize it or not, are actually panentheists, who believe that Divinity is both immanent in the physical/sensory world, and transcendent beyond it.

Many Pagans have a spiritual worldview which combines elements of several of these approaches. So do many who are not Pagans. I do not at present consider myself a Pagan (although I spent a dozen years in the Pagan community back in the 1980s and 90s), but I am basically a panentheist, with animist tendencies: that is, I believe in both the immanence and transcendence of Divinity, as well as remaining open to the possibility that other things beside humans (animals at least, perhaps even natural features and phenomena like streams, trees, rocks, mountains, etc.) have, on some level, a "soul" or "spirit."

I'm a monotheist in that I believe there is a fundamental or essential unity to Divinity, which can manifest itself in various ways. I'm not a polytheist in part because I've seen how difficult it is for human committees to get their act together -- I can't imagine such a beautiful, complex, and smoothly-functioning cosmos being the result of a divine committee! (Tongue only partly in cheek, here....)

Christianity, as a whole, has sadly de-emphasized (and, at times, even more sadly denied) the human responsibility toward nature which is contained -- albeit as a less-visible sub-stream -- in both the Scriptures and the tradition of the Church. But many, including even some "right-wing" or conservative Christians, are coming around. A growing number of Evangelicals are beginning to see the necessity of practicing what they call "Creation Care," and the Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomeus has declared that those who damage or degrade creation are guilty of sin.

Like most of life, these issues are complex, multi-faceted, and interrelated. There are few simple or black-and-white answers...

Respectfully,

Robin Greenwood

Jihadist,

Oops... that post to you was for Greg... sorry for the confusion, both of you.

PaganPlace,

You have quite a bit of ranting there... so I'm gonna try to pick out the core.

Starhawk has become the "poster child" for Pagans. It is one thing for her to post her positions on her website... post articles on Witchvox and Beliefnet... but now she has become the voice of Pagandom by being published on Newsweek/WashingtonPost. She fails to make the distinction between her beliefs, the beliefs of her tradition, and the diversity of beliefs that exist in the Pagan community.

You state that one "can no more be a 'right wing Pagan' than a 'left wing Pagan'" yet go on a several post rant why the Iraq war, George Bush, and the Christian agenda require me to have a politely left view of the world... sorry... that is not the case. I am pro-life, pro-gun owner's rights, pro-death penalty... eco-extremists, militant feminist, and gay radicals all leave me with a very bad taste in my mouth, mostly because they state that I can not be pro-environment, pro-woman, or pro-gay rights unless I believe and support the same extreme views they do. My religious ethics place personal responsibility squarely on my shoulders for the welfare of myself, my family, my community, and my nation in a way that a socialist (cradle to grave) ideology is simply incompatible with. So... respectfully... you are wrong... I am a right-wing conservative Pagan.

Yours in the Gods.

Jihadist,

You can find list of Pagan religions with explanations of each on both Witchvox and Mind-N-Magick... here is a short list:

* Asatru is a religious movement which is attempting to revive the pre-Christian (Viking Age) Nordic religion as described in the Eddas.

* Celtic Reconstructionism is an effort to reconstruct, in a modern context, an ancient Celtic religious framework.

* Discordianism is a modern, Chaos-based religion founded in either 1958 or 1959.

* Druidry in Celtic polytheism denotes the priestly class in ancient Celtic societies. Modern attempts at reinventing Druidism is called Neo-druidism.

* Eclectic Wicca is a widely accepted branch of Neopaganism, where followers include any aspects involved in the other traditions.

* Egyptian or Kemetic Reconstructionism is a form of reconstructionist religion which recreates the Ancient Egyptian religion.

* Etruscan Paganism is a form of reconstructionist religion which recreates the Ancient Etruscan religion.

* Finnish Paganism is the reconstructionist pagan religion of the ethnic beliefs of present-day Finland and Karelia prior to Christianization.

* Hellenic Polytheism refers to a polytheistic religion honoring the Gods of the ancient Greek pantheon. Also known as “Ethnic Polytheistic, Hellenic Tradition”, “Hellenism”, ”Hellenismos”, or “Hellenic Reconstructionism”.

* Mithraism is the worship of the god Mithras and derives from the Persian and Indic god Mithra and other Zoroastrian deities.

* Roman religion or Religio Romana is a form of reconstructionist religion which recreates the religion in ancient Rome

* Romuva celebrates the Ethnic or Old Religion of the Lithuanians.

* Shamanism refers to a range of traditional beliefs and practices that involve the ability to diagnose and cure human suffering and, in some societies, the ability to cause suffering.

* Stregheria is an archaic Italian word meaning “witchcraft”, that has been revived, principally by Raven Grimassi, to refer to an Italian-based tradition of religious witchcraft.

* Thelema is the name of a philosophical/religious system established in 1904 through Aleister Crowley and his wife, Rose Edith Kelly, with the writing of Liber AL vel Legis, or The Book of the Law.

* Wicca is considered by many to only correctly apply to initiates of a traditional branch of the religion (such as Gardnerian or Alexandrian Wicca) because solitary Wicca or eclectic Wicca are different in practice from the religion established by Gerald Gardner, but has come to be used as a general term to describe all Neopagan Witches or any religion which is vaguely Witchcraft-like.

Yours in the Gods.

Tarra Gazelle,

I know very much what Wicca is... again, you don't know me from squat. I started down a Pagan path several decades ago as a Wiccan... and simply found it lacking.

Again, your prejudice astounds me. You refuse to include Reconstructionists in you label of Pagan, yet Wicca is suppose to draw from the very religions and traditions you revile.

Why is it that almost every Recon group identifies itself as Pagan? Why is it that the top Pagan websites (Witchvox, Mystic Wicks, and Mind-N-Magick) all include Recon groups as Pagan? Why is it that one of the top interfaith sites (Beliefnet) includes Recon groups as Pagan?

It seems that your understanding of what Pagan means is limited. Like so many other zealots from other religions, you are unwilling to accept others with differing perspectives because of your perceived true understanding.

What a sickening display of intolerance.

Yours in the Gods.

If violence is what you advocate, I'm not sure you've evaluated the situation, Sid.

There's nobody that you could hurt to change this situation.

There just isn't.

It's not even about Bush. Poor man doesn't even know who he is.

And he wouldn't be in office if enough of us knew who *we* are, either.

'Down and dirty' isn't about thinking one man really has power. This is really an impotent idea ... that somehow you can hurt someone and as long as you 'get rid of evil' everything'll be all right.

What we think is 'evil' is a *mirror.*

If any philosophy could do 'good' by hurting people, then any philosophy, ....his or 'the terrorists'... would be as good as any.

Just a matter of 'winners' and the real stakes are way beyond anything our tribal emotions can even register.

If Bush the man were really the point, he'd never have been governor of Texas, never mind a man who did what he did as such with his records sealed so he could Swift-boat his oppostition, despite being, well...

If it were about the man, they'd have found a better man.

Look at what he's doing to the *laws* and the *people.* He's living a certain *myth,* and he's so scared not to live up to it, he'll be the mouthpiece for certain interests who believe a select few getting rich just before the world goes to pot is *exactly* their religious destiny.

In fact, there's a lot of people who built money and power cause they *need* to believe that.

They're constantly telling the *world,* 'Buy this, you materialistic sinners, so I can berate you for being more materialistic than we, the 'elect,' while I tell you you're anti-God for resisting corporate exploitation.'

This isn't about a *man.*

The *man* Bush has no soul, no spine, no nothing. He wanted to be a posterboy, though, guess what.

He is.

This isn't about him.

It's about *us.*

It's about *poison.*

It's about knowing what he represents and *speaking.*

My dear Barbara, (Starhawk, ChickenHawk, whatever)

Let us not just talk about this grave issue. 'Global Warming.' This sure thing, global warming, not only affects us, registered "Pagans," "Hindus," in the books of all those Christian missionaries and their cousin Muslim Mullah and Mongol conqureros alike,It affects all. It is a 'chain thingy.' First, it affects our pagan brain cells, good pagans such as yours truly. Get real. The reality I am referring to is the reality that you guys are avoiding getting down and dirty. Get down and start throwing stones, knives, bullets and bombs on those idiots who do not see the truth. This is real. Warming of our dear, near and lovely 'mother-earth,' is real. It cannot be denied by idiots like our own near and 'nearly insane,' president, Geoege W. Bush. Our own president George W. Bush, claims that, "further studies on this 'global warming thingy that they talk about so much in media,' is urgently needed," period.

"My dear 'king George W. Bush,' get down from your ivory tower, your whiter than white, 'White House presidential podium." Even though you have a presidential prerogative, 'negative prerogative' of not signing the world accord on cutting down on the emission proposal, please be with us and let us talk.

Good interaction is what we need, not this forum's idiotic, theoritical bush beating.
...and I am Sid Harth.

Sorry to spam, but I think this is important:

Once you accept the idea that 'control' is all that matters, it never stops.

Ever.

Notice?

'Right winger?'

See what I mean?

What makes you think it'll stop for *you?*

Yeah. *That,* if nothing else, is Pagan.

Call it Wiccan.

Just look, before you vote.

Anyway, sorry about the rant, everyone else.

Just that people who go, 'Pagans should be right wing, look at these books!'

Are really missing the point.

No, this *isn't* what the Pagan movement is about, and they say it themselves. Just a delusion that they're a) allowed to control others, and b) that those who feed this idea won't suppress *them* the moment they become inconvenient.

As an Irish Pagan, it greatly distresses me how some 'right-wing' recon groups can get to be sticklers about what the Tain Bo Culaigne says, like it was a Bible, (of course, to say how much better than most Pagans they are,) without ever asking the question: "Gee, now, is anything these guys do in this epic story even *intended* to be presented like it's a good idea?"

Witness the story of Cuchulain croaking his only son in the name of 'Stay The Course.'

It's not a model for being, it's a *tragedy.*

Most cultures have similar stories.

How do you think they heard them, back in the romanticized day?

Who's *really* being fluffy, right about now?

Those fighting for change, or those trumpeting their might and 'values' like it was ever really up to them?

Hate to break it to you, Tim, but the Roman army kind of rolled over that stuff, even if you did understand it.

You can no more be a 'right wing Pagan' than a 'left wing Pagan.'

Those wings are about someone else's bird.

But you can still be an American. Kinda. Maybe a Please, sir, can I bury my dead, kinda American.

But that's the *best* kind of American. If they got a bit of spit and vinegar and malice toward none.

What do you want, Tim? Someone to impose a couple of 'ways' you happen to like on all kinds of people in the name of their Christ, as if that were *ever* the point for *anyone?*

The way I see it is, right wing never wanted anything to do with Pagan except a rousing good story they could appropriate.

If you think that just because you want some things the right wing wants, you're a right wing Pagan, you, sadly, win or lose,

Got another thing coming.

Capiche?

Anyway, to answer the question someone posed, there are countless branches of modern Paganism, if you get down to it. That's *kind of the point* in many ways. People who can't help but see 'religion' in terms of hierarchy and authority can't help but think it's all hopelessly-fractious, but in many ways, the stuff we like to argue and debate about *isn't the important part, just the parts we like to debate and scrap over.*

Oh, and you better believe we do. Doesn't stop most of us from circling up and 'getting it done.'

Those most attached to an idea that differences of 'opinion' and practice and othodoxy are most important, well, they either happily pursue a more focused ethnic 'recon' tradition, or do so unhappily.

Sooner or later, there's *always* someone saying, 'I'm a right-wing Pagan, and I have more authority than thou because I have guns, and surely the Right will respect my authoritay as long as they promise to protect my race and let me have my swords and guns! In the name of Lugh or Odin or Agammenmon I shall pose bravely with my spear!'

Politically, I'd say they're kind of deluded, that way, if they think 'The Right' gives two stinky ones for their beliefs. The weapons are just a means of making people feel good and strong about being exploited.

And a lot of people more traditional than they will correct them on the 'authentic practices.' It's not hard to confuse bluster and posturing for 'the soul of the ancient ways.' Partly cause the current way of thinking figured that it was 'safe' to *preserve* that stuff.

To my experience, it's our *warriors* who feel like they're devalued by some touchy-feely 'neopagan' thing. They want absolutes to 'fight' for, and they want them *now.*

But, let me remind you of Sgt. Stewart, Tim, and all the other dead Pagan vets that the right wing keeps from being buried under their own sacred symbols. The right wing is *not* your friend. It's not even your *war.* It's *their* war. One against 'liberals' ..manufactured fears and hostilities.

They'll say over and over and over again that 'Liberals devalue you warriors, so let us use you.'

One thing Starhawk is *not* is s poster child for the Pagan community valuing our warriors.

But that doesn't mean there's anyone to like *kill* right now.

And it sure as *ahem* doesn't mean you got elected as the guy who can control the rest of the stuff in their agenda. They don't even think about you. If your frustrated masculinity makes you go postal, they'll just say, 'Look, Pagans are dangerous.'

See how that 'right wing' works, yet?

Most you can get is a pat on the head and a royal scapegoating out of them. However 'right wing' you think you are, they're gonna pad your ego and say 'We represent your 'values,' which they *don't,* unless you happen to be exceptionally rich, in which case you wouldn't be here.

You want to be traditional, I could talk to you about some ancient stuff. Thing is 'right wingers' might not like the lessons.

In short,

Who are you trying to *appease* by insisting 'Pagans aren't like that?'

Are you in, or are you out, hard guy?

Well, for starters, on 'Animists,' it's important to make the distinction between 'animism' as a sort of classification of belief, (in short: everything's alive and conscious in somme way,) and certain people called Animists in terms of certain ethnic and religious struggles in Africa, notably the Sudan and all that Darfur stuff.

There, there are people with a constellation of very specific tribal beliefs and practices who are, as a group called (by someone,) Animists.

You could call me animist with a small A. There's some other folks over there with more need of the word, though.

Terra Gazelle,

Thanks for the explanation and clarification on pagans and Wiccans in your posts here. What about animists? I do need to read up more on them all. I had associated pagans, Wiccans and Druids with Stonehenge and Solstice celebrations there that I saw once. It was, I should say, dignified, moving and spiritual.

Starhawk is a very spiritual person and her columns here is always a pleasure for me to read. Pagans, Wiccans and animists are very in tune with and respect nature, the elements and regard the earth as sacred. Many things to learn from them there.

Tim,

So you are a polytheist... and you are a reconstructionist I take it? I know those other religions exist, as in Voudun, Santaria,Ifa, and maybe hundreds of other animist, Polytheistic and Pantheistic religions. Then some religions include those who are polytheists and some who are pantheists.

Maybe you do not know all about what Wicca is.

http://www.twpt.com/witchbyanyothername.htm

The practice and art of Witchcraft/Wicca is not new age.

I have an understanding of what Pagan means...and it does not include every religion not covered by the desert religions. Pagans revere the Earth...you can still believe in the many Gods, but they are not as a general rule Earth Gods.

But it is not up to me to label you.

In Her Name-

Terra

Greg,

Wiccans are Pagan but not all Pagans are Wiccans. Like Baptists are Christians, but not all Christains are Baptists. Paganism is an umbrella that covers many Pagan religions.

Paganism started in the caves with shamanism... there are different Pagan religions from different cultures and different eras in those cultures. Over the millenium the Pagan religions have changed. If a belief does not grow with the people and with knowledge it will not give it's followers a connection.

Then you have Wicca that has many different sub sets called Traditions. Like the form of Wicca that I follow is different then what Starhawk follows, but we could worship together in harmony.

We are complex...some folks are polytheists some are Pantheists...

Wicca is only one form of a Pagan religion...it is the most popular.

Pardon my total ignorance but how many branches of Wiccan/Pagan faith are there? What are the differences between Wicca and Pagan faiths?

Terra Gazelle,

With all do respect... you have no idea how long I have been Pagan... and I am not a Pantheist, I am a Polytheist... Hard Polytheist for that matter. You, as does Starhark, speak as though religions like Celtic Reconstructionism, Hellenismos, Religio Romano, Asatru or any of other many non-New Age/non-wicca-ish traditions do not exist. If you were my student you would have a good bit of research to do yourself. Your stating that I am not Pagan because I am "not a person of the Earth- Pagani" shows you to be either truly ignorant or intolerant of the diversity that exists in the Pagan community.

Yours in the Gods.

Tim,

Starhawk has been around fighting for Pagans and all people, I dare say, longer then you have been walking on all twos. You're tired of people speaking for you? Me too. I betya Starhawk is tired of words and views being placed in her mouth also. PopCulture? Meaning new? Hell sweety, I remember when there was no pop culture when speaking about Paganism...when there was no books, and to find a teacher was harder then finding hens teeth. The first book I found was Diary of a Witch in 1968 then Spiral Dance 1979...then The Golden Bough written in 1896 or there abouts. Pop Culture...? Where were you when we had to hide? When those who came before you took the guff...those like Starhawk who cut the trails...those like Selena Fox and Patrick McCullom whose house was fire bombed..Pop Culture? Those people built our culture...they ensured that we could now have schools and seminaries and be taught in mainstream colleges...why we have Pagan lawyers and doctors and teachers and legal clergy and chaplains.We are represented in the Parliament of World's Religions and have a Pagan on their board. Where do you think those rights came from? Zeuse's forehead?

If you were my student I would be making you research on some history. I would also make you applogize for your rudeness to someone that did not earn it.

I agree not all that are Wiccan can talk about other Wiccans not alone those not Wiccan. I do not think any one is talking for those not Wiccan...and as you are not a person of the Earth- Pagani...then you are also not Pagan.

You can be what you want politically. You are conservative, wonderful, be all you can be. But show me where Starhawk said all Pagans are the same. Pagan has a meaning, and it means more then not being Christian, Muslim or Jew...there is a set of beliefs..and the biggy is to revere the Earth and all that comes from it. For your edification You can be a Pantheist without being Pagan.

One of my students was also a proud conservative Pagan...I did not have a problem with that, she had a problem waiting for me to have a problem. You're looking for a fight.

Many Blessings, no matter what your path-
Terra

Stawhark is another one of those of the "Pop-Pagan culture" who portrays modern Pagan religions as only Wicca, Modern Druidry, and personalized wicca-ish practices and then lumps all Pagans into the same line of thinking...

Modern Pagans are as diverse a community as anyone could ever find... not all Pagan religions worship "the Goddess"... not all Pagan religions or "earth centered"... not all Pagan religions are "nature based". We are not of one mind on any issue... we are not all leftist... we are not all eco-extremists... we are not all militant feminist.

I am sick and tired... and tired and sick... of people with too much time on their hands and an opinion speaking for the whole Pagan Community. Let me be perfectly blunt... if a person starts a sentence with "Pagans believe" then they are wrong about everything that comes after. Being Pagan does not require a single shared belief or political view... the only requirement to be Pagan is to not be a Christian, Muslim, or Jew. This does not mean that all Wiccans, or Hellenics, or Celtic Recons don't have shared beliefs from within their specific religion or tradition... it just means that there is no global requirement of what a Pagan is beyond not being a Christian, Muslim, or Jew.

I am a proud right-wing conservative Pagan.

Scientist,
Ok then ...tell me this...
What are the benefits of deforestation and chemical farming where once fertile soil has been turned into deserts. The rape and total abliteration of the land with surface mining. The residue and waste of humans with the growing amounts of pollutiion infesting out oceans, lakes, rivers, streams and aquifers, what is left of them.

Science, like religion can and is manipulated by politics and money to hide the abuse to the detriment to all but a few whose greed superceeds all else. At one time science said that smoking was good for you. They also said that bleeding someone who was injured would help them heal faster. As it is proven now that false conclusion was not only wrong but made the injury worse leading in most cases to death. At one time science also believed that anything smaller than itself could not hurt it. At least until the discovery of the microscope and microbes and hundreds of years of plagues. So just because there is currently no absolute proof, any reasonable mind would say it is possible.

The question is quite simple. How does all of this manipulation, abuse and destruction help the environment? The answer is easy and obvious. It does not, not until there is balance, respect and selflessness.

Mandi,
Maybe you need to do some research on the person before you denigrate them.

As to Starhawk's Bio?

Working for Permaculture-
New Orleans Bioremediation Basics: Starhawk's more technical explanation of the efforts to clean up various villainous toxins using microbes, plants and fungi.

Notes on the Permaculture at the HoriZone Ecovillage: Starhawk's preliminary report on the activists' EcoVillage from the summer '05 G8 actions -- what worked and what didn't.

Starhawk works mainly with two permaculture organizations, the Permaculature Institute of Northern California (Penny Livingston-Stark also co-teaches the EAT trainings), and Occidental Arts and Ecology Center. They are both highly recommended for accurate and detailed information on the art and science of creating "permanent culture."

Earth Activist Trainings combine a basic permaculture course (taught by Starhawk, Erik Ohlsen, Penny Livingston-Stark and Charles Williams) with activist trainings and nature observation, all of it grounded in earth-based spirituality.

an activist Fighting for Justice-

RANT: the Root Activist Network of Trainers, provides training and organizational support for actions in the Global Justice and related movements. Since formed in January of 2001, RANT has offered training support for campaigns in California, Brazil, Argentina, Quebec, Genoa, Washington DC, New York, Kananaskis, and elsewhere.

Living River Pagan Cluster: The Living River is part street-theater, part sacred dance, part ritual which has become a regular part of global demonstrations. For more information, you can visit the Pagan Cluster website.

Starhawk has fought against the School of the Americas,The World Bank,She has been to Camp Casey...etc. check it out.

Why not go to Starhawk's page and read what she has done...check out her life and what she believes. Check out her writings...if you are going to accuse someone you need to at least know the facts.
http://www.starhawk.org/activism/activism-writings/activism-writings.html

It wouldn't be so bad if people would base their accusations in fact, but it sounds like too many base it on a dislike of Starhawk's religion. It sure is not based on knowledge.
The Wiccan religion is based on nature...it is part of our faith to take care of the Earth and all on Her. It is not seperate... the enviroment and our faith are one.

Saveing the Earth is what Starhawk does.

Since we have the supporters gallery well filled, then I'll put my vote on the "give us something real" side of the coin.

The pagan community, as Starhawk so easily conglomerates, (rather than addressing groups of individuals with very diverse beliefs- and some, gasp, don't include bio-feminism in their practices); are aware of the issues surrounding our planet. Some as scientists, some as concerned residents, others as onlookers. No more so than the soccer mom, or the politician though. Awareness is widespread.

Sounds a bit like the proselytizing that pagans complain about actually. You must be making the choices you are because you do not know something that I know. Whether it is the value of water, or the dogma of a faith.

Placing earth worship in the center of the issue is a nice way to keep people divided into spiritual hierarchy.

The statements regarding dreams and visions, makes every pagan in this lumpy demographic look histrionic. Trapped in a web of self centered drama. *I know this because my magical powers tell me*

All the dreams in the world aren't going to do a thing. We've already gotten the same tired words, phrased differently from every political candidate in the world.

Starhawk tells us we are morally obligated to act, but outside of bolstering morale, gives no specific action that would be widely effective. Her contributions have been reduced to that of team parent, yelling out the "right" answers from the sidelines, and participating in the awards dinners. Oh, but gosh, that dinner made hundreds of abused women feel better for a day.

To speak from the middle of the conglomerated mob; Give us something real. We are quite aware of the problem thank you, now how do you propose to solve it - and please don't jump in with the "everyone do their part" babble.

The individual dutifully rinsing and recycling their cans is thwarted by communities who cannot afford to do any more with the collected recyclables than stack them up. (as is the problem in many communities)

Appreciation isn't going to change this.

It's also left me asking, is Starhawk a politician, or a religious leader? Spirituality isn't going to solve the problem. Asking Starhawk about her opinions on global warming, is like asking the pope his opinions on hemlines in France.

The response is a predictable, politically correct, and skewed to paint a demographic as having more awareness than their fellow man answer.

While it creates a great story, it really doesn't alter anything.

Folks can believe the 999 in 1,000 scientists who concur that the percentage rise and speed of global warming are anthropogenic, or they can believe the 1 who does not. We can pursue the one link, or the many tens of thousands.

Funny that the 1 is so selective in use of evidence and is always paid by carbon industries.

If the weight of consensus isn't persuasive to non-scientists, why not just use the rule of thumb that it's foolish to trust folks--the 1 in 1,000--who've got a vested interest in business as usual? These folks almost always are dedicated to corporate shareholder interests and have gone so far into R&D or paid spin that they no longer recall what "science" means, or the value of caution.

It's not up to coporatocrats or their shills to determine the future.

Would that we be able to easily solve this problem, but it's going to have to be done in many ways. Each group that you want to reach has different needs and different viewpoints. You can't talk to conservatives the same way you do to liberals and expect the same result. Sometimes the carrot works and sometimes the stick works. The trick is to know when to use what approach. You can get results but the methods have to change. More and more Christians are making the enviornment an important tenant of their worldview and that is good.

Just one of many out there...if you look!

http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/global-warming020507.htm

Unless, of course, you listen to science, or in fact the report that seems to have spurred this discussion in the first place.

Catch up on your talking points, 'scientist.' They are in fact in the process of changing to 'always having been saying' something else.

There is NOT evidence to state that global warming is caused by humans or industrialized nations. Period.

Anyway, Gazelle, as for Tea's squallings about dominion over the universe,' ...that sounds like politics. In the sense that the last person you want ruling you is someone that *wants the job.*

All kinds of nast becomes second nature before you even hear of them. This applies most especially to Gods. :)

Was that too cynical? I can never tell. :)

Just happens to be my experience that if you take that attitude, they'll cry for surrogate abusive Daddy to bomb the crap of someone another month or two or twenty (just to prove 'I wasn't wrong all along') or chainsmoke fourteen blunts *just to prove* that Mommy doesn't rule them.

They wouldn't think it was a big deal to 'Have Dominion Over The Mother' if someone didn't make a big deal of *that.* The idea of a God with a book you could geek out on and thus exercise an illusory quasi-magical, dissociated form of control over a Nature they were yet rightfully-*scared* of, well, why do you think they could *sell* it in the first place?

If you're too proud, it's 'God,' ...if someone resists you, it's 'the sin of Pride.'

There's no 'might of the Lady' that needs defense.

Satisfying as it may be at times to point it out, it's not actually generally helpful to come at the boys hard with 'You can't beat Mother Nature,'

Cause they'll try. They're kind of supposed to, actually. In general that's only a problem when it gets turned into 'Ultimate Religion,' and 'Obey, woman! Me and my G0d r0x0r, n00b! He 5m07e u!!!'

Or, in fact, 'I call my God is righteous times infinity plus *more!*

Same thing.

While there's certainly a time to say, 'No more.' there's also a way to go about it. While, yeah, they'll call about anything you say 'shrill...'

Well, time may not be on our side. But patience is.

'Men' may not be on 'our' side, as our roles are cast.

But, 'A Man' most certainly can be.

They'll be heroes for far less than a universe, of you let em. This is probably why those who promise the universe won't.

Dear Starhawk,
It is always good to see you. You mention the need for mankind's humility in order to perceive and change his treatment of the Mother Earth

I draw you attention to this article which appeared in TWP
LONDON, Feb. 9 -- British billionaire entrepreneur Richard Branson, with former vice president Al Gore at his side, offered a $25 million prize Friday to anyone who can come up with a way to blunt global climate change by removing at least a billion tons of carbon dioxide a year from the Earth's atmosphere.

It sounds very good, but as far as humility is concerned, once you go to the readers postings, it becomes very discouraging. Hopefully none of those derogatory comments in the peanut gallery are truly from paid political hacks and not from their masters.

I see that there were some good, honest attempts to solve the problem as well. Here was my "entry"
We could start with a Wind Turbine driven Regenerative Carbon Dioxide Removal System similar to the scavenger systems on the Space Shuttle. The problem is which Metal Oxide Sorbent to use. That really should be relatively minor since the extracted CO2 has been concentrated by use of harnessed wind power. Basically a small portion of the electrical power generated by the Wind Turbines would be diverted for this use. The rest could be routed to the power grids as usual.

I love God's manefestation within Nature. I love God.

Blessed Be, Winged one of the Heavens...that would make you an Angel, no? Yes, I think so.

A greetings of love and trust!

Through the advent of modern technology, human’s notion that they are part of the world is deteriorating. But as time pass, the population almost tripled. Used up four times the resources and ten times the planet is capable of sustaining. We have played a role by belonging to a society that judges its worth by the quantity of what it consumes, by not remembering, but by refusing to see. We found ways to improve our lifestyle without even taking into consideration the damage we are creating to our mother earth. We fail to consider two important things; the cost to the future, and the cost to the Earth. We may be always clever, but we are not always that smart.

It says that Man is the co-creator with God, of the earth. But I think that we have done the ruining process faster than how our Creator made it. We learned to change our environment to fit our appetite, we eat as fast as we can consume, and thus agriculture began. We are living in a fast lane, inconsiderate enough to reflect on what damage we are inflicting to mother Earth. We’ve unraveled the mystery of the Earth within a short span of time, and still trying to discover things. There is an overdose of pride in our species. We are swallowed by our greed that we have forgotten that our primary role in this Earth is to Steward God's creation.

Blessed be!

TEA,
Goddess is One...She contains All. Within Her is God.With God is Goddess. They are Seperate, and Equal.He brings you to Her..She leads you to Him.
But then our God is not yours.

Goddess is Oneness... and the Universe is about lusty diversity. It is about fertility and growth and change. It is not about sterility and exclustivity...it is not an exclusive ole boys club...it is Mama getting down and dirty and bringing in all colors and races, and sexual orientation and sizes and genders and personalities...Life celebrates diversity, and Goddess is Life.

Tea, we have a different view of Deity...

As for 'Dominion over nature,'

Yah. Who do *they* think they're fooling. :)

It really *would* go a long way toward that interfaith dialogue thing, by the way, if it didn't seem to have to be a tenet of belief that Wiccan and Pagan must be the only proper nouns in the language *not* capitalized.

Well, except for atheists. They like that.

TEA,

You think you can beat Mother? She will land you on your butt and give you a smack for your arrogance.
We can work with Nature...if you understand Her laws. But don't think you are ever going to dominate the maker of galaxies.

“Our Life is the Divine Life of the universe. Our means of keeping in touch with it cannot be through any man-made dogma, but through nature, which man did not make. Man’s hands wrote all the holy books and sacred scriptures; only the book of nature was written by divinity.”
-Doreen Valiente

Not so, Tea, (on behalf of Coffee: can't help but think of pots and kettles, there. ;) )

) ...actually, if you were familiar with Starhawk's theology, you'd know she's been a very influential exponent of the idea of the 'Oneness' *as* the 'Great Goddess' since the Seventies.

(the Reclaiming trad isn't strictly Wiccan as Wiccans would say, but it has certainly had a huge influence on 'pop Wicca,' in ways I can hardly dislike, as much as there's 'political feminism' involved, which hasn't always been considered 'appropriate.' Still, when it comes down to it, seeing the Universe as a Mother makes a whole lot more sense than a Dude who 'looked upon' a faceless 'face of the waters' and then externally shaped it for the express purpose that everyone should vote Republican and then be rewarded for having so much faith in sexual tabooes that they broke the world over them. Even there, 'Who made that situation?' You still have a 'formless matrix' (yes, that's related to the word for Mother) that apparently spawned a 'Shaper.' May as well say 'Mother' even if 'sex' 'didn't exist yet.' )

Yeah, you can abstractly say, 'The Universe is Sexless,' but it's better to say, 'Whoa, Momma' than be walking down a *beach,* by an *ocean,* and be like, "Look, I found a *Casio!* *beep beep.* All this must have been *made* by a guy who happens to resemble the King!"

I mean, you can get a burr up about, 'There's no sex to the universe!' (so don't say She,) or about, 'There's no sex to God,' (so how dare you not say He,') ...except that *obviously,* these distinctions have meaning to we limited creatures.

Get too abstract, and you start figuring that 'God' is the total expression of the universe being run by human-type thought. You end up with 'Intelligent Design' instead of 'Living, evolved-and-birthed *process.* Call it a limitation, but I'll take 'Mother' any day.

Call it a luxury of being Pagan, but I'm pretty sure the Universe isn't going to call me to task on my pronouns. Go figure.

And, as it happens, Slewis, Starhawk does travel the world, not to mention the country, (I've met her, after she told some of those stories.)

If sensibility and reasonableness held sway, wiccans would outnumber all other belief "systems" by next Tuesday. Meanwhile, "God told me to tell you..." seems to have more appeal, and we can keep watching the drawbridge for villagers brandishing torches and farm implements.

Dominion over nature?
That is precisely why this Earth and the life on it are being destroyed. The arragonce that "men", even with all their technology, can some how have dominance over the Earth. Where have these men ever created life? Can they make a living cell from their self-proclaimed god like power? History has proven that the only thing these men have done is destroy and continue to do to so today. What is so frustratingly amusing in all this, is when they claim to be able to make it better than it was before they killed, polluted, smashed, defaced and tortured it.

I am saddened by all the natural gifts of healing that have been destroyed in the rain forests, the oceans. The disease caused from the misuse and abuse of our Mother. This Earth is the Eden so many religius books talk about. It is the selfishness and greed of men and the women who blindly follow them who are driving us out of paradise. They are creating the hell they so fear. The children, the innocence, and all life left will suffer and perish.

The Mother Earth will cleanse herself of this fragile organic human species who thinks that they have dominion.

ANONYMOUS
It is we who have dominion over nature, not the other way around...

And on behalf of Coffee, the author refers to Nature as goddess as separate entity from oneness.

It is both god and goddess that renders imperative validity, and not singleness of goddess

Starhawk - a bright shining star that - for some of us - takes flight, every time the meaningful moderators post a new query to this quiver of panelists.

What a revelation. Four months ago, wiccan were (I imagined) far off ancient ritual seekers, that wore skirts and ruled the dark sides of nature and the underworld. Either way, they weren't part of my ritual or on my radar screen.

And so with great gusto, I have enjoyed and embraced the clarity and insight this author offers - particularly on this site and re this most cogent faith/environmental theme.

Nature is and has always been, a second home to me. I travel mountain and desert zones and in the process have gained a connection to ecoystems and critters. I'm destraught when wild lands or species are marred or destroyed.

People either have or don't a relevant tethering to conservation alliances. In the home, in their yards, in transportation options; In their communities, re air, water and public lands. And in the outdoors, re ecosystem corridors, preservation of species, habitat, climate change and/or global warming. Most are in denial re population explosion, rampant consumerism and industial destruction of so many corners of mother earth.

Starhawk needs to travel the globe with the likes of Buffet, Gates and Clinton and rally world followers to the cause, that mother earth is indeed being "crucified" and that humans need to humbly slow down and take up the ecological cause and clarion call. China, India, the America's, are you listening? Starhawk, sing on.

Earth Question asks:

"Would such a horrendous outcome shake the faith/belief of a wiccan?"

Wiccan, with a capital W, by the way. Proper name.

The short answer is, no. Even extinction-level events are part of the natural cycle. It's how we've taken this kind of form in the first place. Believing that the universe values diversity and complexity in life, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to figure that maybe we've got a place in the biosphere *as* the creature that's developed into 'That which swats away earth-crossing asteroids and the like,' cause, while, yes, Earth would likely go on without life-like-us, life-like-us-just so happens to be very good at hitting moving objects with other moving objects.

Seems like the least we could do.

Would it 'shake my faith' if we were too busy screaming at each other to do that, or some other sensible things we know damn well we shoulf be doing?

Maybe in people, but not in the universe.

Norrie, you old Buddist so and so:

Have you considered that ABD is making a self-referential statement as to the qulaity of his own sentence?

Anonymous,

You should know that ABD made his "what a load of crap" comment not only in this thread, but also as his comment to Starhawk's February 3rd essay "On Prayer at Brigid".

My comment to him was, and is:

"Crap is usually in the eye of the beholder, as it is in this case, not in Starhawk's inspired writing."

Perhaps ABD has a brain tic and can't be held responsible for his utterances.

STARHAWK tell us: The sun, the wind, falling water and moving tides can generate energy.

Hi, Starhawk,

Is there already a technology for utilizing moving tides to generate energy?

Here in New Orleans the Entergy Corp. has for generations produced electrical energy using the moving waters of the Mississippi. It still supplies electricity for a very large geographical area. I have often wondered why other cities along other rivers don't generate their energy that way. There are also many large industrial plants up and down the river between here and Baton Rouge (e.g., Kaiser Aluminum) that use the cheap energy derived from the moving waters of the river. I know this isn't a theological questions :-) but we have to start thinking about these alternative sources. Survival depends on them.

Ann O.

In response to "Earth Question": We Witches hold ALL LIFE as being absolutely sacred and ultimately precious...the Earth is alive and a part of the ONE LIFE, experienced by us as GODDESS. Earth is our biological Mother with whom we are intimately connected in Spirit. Would you systematically poison and mutilate your human mother? No. We feel the same toward our common Mother. Do you understand? My friend, though I speak here bluntly, I write from a heart filled with Love, that you may see. We have no time now to mince words or to be passive little witches. We must act in one accord, fully utilizing all power available to us if we are to lessen in any way the oncoming crisis that we have brought, not only upon ourselves, but also upon all the children of our Mother Earth. When I speak here of using "power" I am referring to "power with", which is harmony and cooperation, rather than "power over" as condoned by most who hold high political and corporate office. Such as these maintain power by controlling the masses by whatever means necessary. It is these who are held most responsible. Karma is exacting and truly just. We are also held accountable for our non-actions. Read our beloved teacher's books. From "the Spiral Dance" through to "the Earth Path". Then you may understand better. Starhawk is much more proficient in the telling than I. Peace to you all...IN HER LIGHT. )O(

ABD,
Why are you makeing such a comment? Crap? Is all religion crap or just one that is different? I am sorry that you feel that way. A Closed mind is a horrible way to live...remember at one time Christianity was different...

TEA,
The Earth will survive...the question is , will we?

Coffee,
Sorry I claim the God and Goddess of Nature. We have two who are One.
But, really with the survival of human kind...I think we need to put aside the battle of the Gods and understand that we have one Earth; one Home and we better save it...because there is no Little House in Space.

If nature is a goddess in your parts, and nature is a god in ours, then it has a fundamental flaw to entail a moral imperative. Instead, Mother and Father Nature can both be gods and their godliness may represent a valid outcome. It is therefore a moral imperative when what is good for goddess is also good for god. Now we can all be happy and save god and goddess ever after.

what a bunch of crap!

The US has always produced and consumed more over the years, accumulating a world of waste. Now the US is pointing the finger at developing countries, and everybody else for consumption. As farmers and their crop are starved from drought, and doctors continue to cover up unexplainable diseases, I am sure the world has already established a conscious awareness of an anti US sentiment. I think when this is associated with memory; the US name will be a reminder of destruction.

Just how much of your sacred world is destroyed in US wars using nuclear and chemical weapons over time is an eternal thought.

If all is sacred, even a tree, when that tree falls does it stop being sacred? I use it for fire wood in my fireplace..and It shows me that it is filled with energy. I honor it.

Goddess created life out of chaos... She did not start with Earth...it is the life force of creation that is sacred, that united with Her and created. It is the life Force in even the smallest bit of dust in space that is sacred. As long as there is a swirling bit of dust that was Earth left, it is part of the Divine...how could it not be?

The deer killed for food is still honored for its life..

Nothing stands still, all things change.Change does not make things less a part of the sacred...no more then turning the light switch off, makes that electric less electric. LOL...you just have to switch it back on again. Sacred is sacred.

We see our Gods in a different way then Christians do. It is a different faith...a different religion. Not better then Christianity, not worse. We see the universe in a different way...our connection to the Godhood is different. We have different sacred myths, and different ways at looking at life and death. But to put it simply, our Gods do not die. After the millenium of time they are still here...and so are we. Changed, but here.

Have you ever heard of the Gaea Theory or the Daisy World? Google them...it's interesting.

How can a person touch heaven, if they make earth hell?

Anon:
Everyone can agree on one thing, human actions are harming the planet. Global warming, climate change is just one of the areas receiving media focus.

Its a more basic problem and truth we should address:

If our actions cause harm to the planet, how can that not cause harm to our spirit? When spirit is the dance of our actions.

To heal the damage done to our planet is to heal ourselves.

The math seems pretty simple to me... all the other questions stirred up, are due to human greed and selfishness.

Peace and acceptance in your travels
http://www.personaltao.com/

A question for wiccan followers:

Preface: I pose the following question, knowing I am human and my purpose is, really, to not arrange and present my words in a derrogatory manner.

Although I agree we should all appreciate and care for the planet we call home, I am trying to understand the comments on the sacredness of the Earth, etc.

In my humble opinon, the Earth is physical, and therefore is vulnerable to, especially, external physical matter than can be threatening or non-threatening (example: Cosmic dust, non threatening. 20 mile wide meteor, threatening)

Therefore, my question is - If the earth is regarded as sacred, is it a holy or divine deity (one of Websters definitions of sacred) that you believe would carry on as holy or divine in smaller, broken pieces when considering the threatening scenario above, or is the earth simply just highly valued and important (an alternate definition of sacred in Websters)and, if the threatening scenario were ever to occur and one could have the opportunity to stand back and ponder such a disasterous outcome, would such a horrendous outcome shake the faith/belief of a wiccan?

Again, I am trying to understand and see contrasts between wiccan belief and, for example, Christian belief in a diety that is considered holy and sacred and cannot be destroyed.

Thanks for your comments in advance.

merry meet!

it is just wonderful to come across an article that both inspires one to act and empowers.

i am from the philippines (where more than half the population is Catholic), a practicing witch and co-founder of a coven in Naga city.

you may well know that this country suffers a lot from climatic change and just last december, a typhoon hit our region and killed hundreds. and just a week ago, farms in the upper part of the philippines were ravaged by frost, an impossibility in this tropical country. so i must say, we have a big problem with the climate.

As persons who believe in the immanence of the Goddess and the sacredness of the Earth, we have to act accordingly, act with love always. and everything else, even understanding, will follow.

blessed be.

I wrote in response to your previous comments about immanent, etc.

This is a thoughtful piece by you. Being humble about the environment, instead of arrogant is a good start.

Unfortunately, we cannot say whether global warming is caused by a cyclical climatic shift that has been exacerbated by human activity or whether it is just human activity. The fact is global warming is going on. I have read that even if we reduced greenhouse gas emissions to zero in the US it is not going to make a difference given the production of such gases by other countries and by animals such as cows.

Of course, reducing pollution has changed the quality of air in America for the better and that is one reason to keep being careful. Another is that we need to conserve resources - if the impetus to control greenhouse gases is lost, the driving force for conservation is gone.

In the end, it may make no substantive difference since we probably cannot reconstitute the polar ice cap or cool the oceans down by one degree.

Be well ...

We have to change, that is the bottom line. We need to change generally accepted accounting practices to include environmental cost, and hold corporations and individuals responsible for their actions. That requires changes to things like the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT). It also requires that where global stocks exist locally, that all contribute to the lost opportunity cost for the country where those global stocks exist. (e.g. Since we all benefit from rainforests, countries that do not develop their rainforests require payment from the rest of us who derive value from their healthy existence.)

On the individual level, we need to redefine what brings worth and value into our lives. We need to get off of the need to define our social worth with respect to possessions and monetary wealth.

Finally, global warming is but one aspect of the problem of human affect upon environment. I am also extraordinarily concern with the rate of species extinction. If the entire eco-system is looked at as a very robust brick wall with each species represented by a brick, we are in the midst of knocking out huge numbers of bricks from the structure. While it is able to sustain itself with many pieces removed, I am extremely concerned about what happens when the point is approached where the removal of the wrong combination of bricks leads to a rapid reconfiguration of the structure.

Well put. It's been one of the few questions I've seen that most everyone has the same basic opinions on, no matter where they fall on the global warming debate. It's our job to protect the enviornment in big ways and small. The trick is to get people to see how easy it can be and how little it can cost. Once you do that we're well on the way.

To quote Louis Pasteur,"The infinitely small are infinitely great."

Thank You Starhawk for sharing your Love, talents, skills, knowledge, wisdom, and hard work. "You do make a difference."

Somehow, many people believe that no matter what happens 'man' can fix anything. Unfortunately their arrogance and chosen ignorance limits the possibility to see the truth and gain a realistic understanding of how balance works. It is easy to destroy, but to create, now that is the true test. Why do they think that domination and control is in their power. That again shows their blindness. A microbe only nanometers in size (over a million times smaller) can and will slay the Goliath.

Food for thought:
Chemoheterotrophs= humans and animals and bacteria
Photoautotrophs = plants and bacteria
Chemoautotrophs = bacteria
Photoheterotrophs = bacteria

Bacteria wins! Now, shall we make it our alley?

Humility and the openness to all possibility, physical and spiritual, is a good place to start.
And don't forget the Fifth Sacred Thing...LOVE!