On Prayer at Brigid

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Greg,
In answer to your questions, I think the easiest thing to do would be to refer you to Starhawk's archives on this site- if you click on November 2006, there's a post there titled 'Some basic definitions'. That should get you started. There's one way that it's like Christianity- you ask 10 different people what it means to be Christian you'll likely get 12 different answers. There's just as wide a range in neo-paganism. The history is too diverse,sometimes confusing and complex to get into in a simple post, but for a great overview, Margot Adler's book Drawing Down the Moon' chronicles the major branches of paganism, basic beliefs and some history of the modern Craft. It can give you an overview of some of the influential folks and is a good starting point.
Hope that helps!
PriveR

However you wish to believe, one thing rings true for everyone, "The need for help". We may not always even know we need it, but the truth is we all do, each one of us. We all have our ways of looking for it. The difficult part is recognizing it. We struggle so hard to find it yet too often look right past what has been there in front of us all along. "Each other"! Why is it so much easier to look to an invisible construct of our imagination and pray for guidance, when right next to us is a living breathing amazing creation of our Mother the Earth, our neighbor, sister, brother, companion, lover. That is why we are so very different and yet so much the same, to each share our special talents and gifts with one another. To help each other live our lives to their fullest and in the process make this beautiful, wonderful island of a planet we are blessed to be a part of a haven of love and life. As we search for ways to fulfill our spiritual needs, let us not forget that each one of us is a unique intregal part of the whole. Let us each in our own special way pray for the wisdom to overcome our fears of growth, change, knowledge, and the unknown, and recognize the fact that the heaven so many seek is right here on this Earth. We have the power to make it happen and the power to desroy it and create the hell so many believe.

I pray for this and the strength to do my part and give the best and all of me to accomplish it.

With Love

Starhawk,
Before I answer about prayer I have a couple of questions. First is there a difference between a witch and a pagan and a wiccan and what are they? Secondly when did the modern wiccan (pagan?) movement start in the US?

As for prayer, it's a very personal thing and to be honest my own prayer life right now is a bit lacking. Generally speaking I will have a conversation with God, I will tell Him my concerns and present any requests and mention people that I am praying for. I usually don't get an answer right then, although I will eventaully get one. When He does answer he will do so by different means, sometimes it's a dream, othertimes it's more direct, like getting accepted into the teacher prep program here in Vegas. He'll use people to answer my prayers and remind me with events in my life that tell me if I am doing what He wants me to do. Every Christian will answer this differently, but the key is to be honest and sincere in your prayer.

Hope it helps...

PS I loved your post about the broom, very funny...

Paragliding or hangliding gets you pretty close to the experience, (and you don't need the flying ointment.)

Don't forget your flying ointment. :)

I must tell you: for getting around a crowded city there is nothing like a broomstick.

And the view's grand!

I do not pray often; I hope to grow in my practice.

My prayers are moments of remembering to pay attention, when the world sends me something lovely--a bird kiting across my field of vision, or a whole flock, a drop of water on a leaf, a new lamb in the field as I go by (blessed Imbolc), yet another cloud formation playing with the sun.

For a moment, I give up the endless chatter in my mind, recognize the gift of seeing/hearing/tasting/touching/smelling the world, and offer gratitude in a breath or two of small joy and immanent grace.

The greater blessing is to have the chance to say to one beside you: "ah, look, do you see what I see?" (as I did last month when beautiful Comet McNaught hung in the glowing sky as the western horizon rolled up and away from the sun)

Starhawk

Brava! At least you have a sense of humor!

I think a smile was immanent in that comment from you.

If not, it is imminent!

cheerz...and good luck.

Dear Anon,

Yeah--you got it about the community thing.

The broom has the advantage of zero emissions and no contribution to global warming--it sure gets cold on those cross country flights. And while they no longer feed you much on conventional airplanes, I have to admit that the service is even worse on the broom. Starhawk

Thanks for answering about immanent. I guess, at least in part, I understand the impetus for praying together as a community comes from the notion that forming a link with others makes the process more powerful for the participants.

What strikes me about this is the similarity with what I'll call "mainstream" religions -- not meaning any disrespect for yours as "mainstream" is defined merely by numbers of adherents rather than quality of content or belief.

Good luck.

BTW, did you fly cross country on a broom or a plane? Just kidding!!

Thanks to all of you who have posted such a wonderful collection of poetry! What a fine tribute to Brigid--Goddess or Saint. I do think that the Celtic world made a beautiful blend of the two, which has given us some amazing art, poetry, and music. And thanks to all who have expressed some aspect of your personal experiences.

As to what I mean by immanent, I do mean 'inherent', dwelling within. In Wicca, the Goddess is embodied, present in each of us, and in the natural world--not located outside the physical world. We might say the physical world is an expression of the Goddess.
I guess, to be a bit clearer about a subject that is, indeed, hard to be clear about, while I see the Goddess as the great powers of creativity and the cycles of birth, growth, death and regeneration embodied in the human and natural world--when I pray, I imagine that I'm talking to somebody. It helps us, us humans who communicate in speech, to use words and imagine a conversation and to have an image to put onto the Receiver of Prayer. But that prayer is partly to awaken some part of myself, to link myself in community with those parts of others, and to also address and awaken those greater forces around us that go beyond my human power to understand and depict.
Okay, friends, I flew across the country today and I've got to get to sleep or I'll never get on this time zone, goodnight, Starhawk

Starhawk,

While I'm not a subscriber to reclaiming, I find your writing very thought-provoking. You have my respect for coming into a public forum such as this, I don't know how you do it when you get some of the hateful responses you do; it's what has made me so careful and protective of whom I share my beliefs with. I believe your entry on prayer was very eloquently put. I think it's a common thread for all beliefs that we pray, in some way, shape, or form. Even those who do not prescribe to any kind of belief or form of God/Goddess have a prayer of their own in the form of hope. My grandmother told me even when I swore I believed in nothing (I was a tad upset with the universe at the time) There are no Atheists in the foxholes, not really anyway.
Warmest blessings,
Illisse

I see that my attempt to quote what I wrote in the first post was snipped by the WaPo comment system.

Well, it's up there for all to see -- no one seems to be in any rush to answer my question anyway.

© 1987, 2001 c.e.
words by Isaac Bonewits
music English trad. ("Henry Martin")

There were three Sisters in our ancient land,
In our ancient land there were three.
And they did dispute which of them
Should be, should be, should be,
Greatest of all in the hearts of the free.

Oh, first spoke Danu, the Mother of All,
Her voice was as rich as the earth:
"I give them my cattle, my grain,
And mirth, and mirth, and mirth.
Freedom without joy is of little worth."

And then spoke Macha, the Goddess of War,
Her voice was the roar of the wave:
"I give but courage, for fear will
Enslave, enslave, enslave.
Freedom's a gift given but to the brave."

Now third spoke Rion, the Light of the Moon,
Her voice was as vast as the sky:
"I give to their thoughts great wings
To fly, to fly, to fly.
Freedom means naught if you never ask why."

[Repeat first verse. Instrumental break.]

But then came Bridget, the Queen of All Arts,
Her voice was a flickering flame:
"My sisters I fear your gifts miss
Their aim, their aim, their aim.
None but through me can their true freedom claim."

"For pleasure and riches are fleeting at best,
And a warrior's strength is quite brief.
And knowledge alone brings them naught
Save grief, save grief, save grief.
Without beauty's fire within their belief."

"My healers restore hope to those who despair.
My smiths forge them weapons so grand.
My bards cause all those who kneel
To stand, to stand, to stand.
The fires of Freedom are lit by my hand!"

There were four Sisters in our ancient land...

To SOME BODY

Now YOU are being disrespectful.

The definition of "immanent" is:

1. Existing or remaining within; inherent:
2. Restricted entirely to the mind; subjective.

The definition of "imminent" is:

About to occur; impending.

My question was a simple one. I do not understand what the author means and so I asked, but wanted to make sure that I did not appear disrespectful, or that I had failed to see a potential typo.

Here is what I wrote:

What does this mean? What is "immanent" - maybe a typo for "imminent?" Whichever it is, immanent or imminent, can you explain what that sentence means.>>

Let's rewrite that first sentence using the dictionary meaning of "immanent":

"Our prayers are to the Goddess—but also to our community, for the Goddess is either
1. Existing or remaining within; inherent,
or
2. Restricted entirely to the mind, i.e. subjective
in us and in the relationships between us."

Now, let's rewrite that sentence using the meaning of "imminent":

"Our prayers are to the Goddess—but also to our community, for the Goddess is
about to occur, i.e., is impending
in us and in the relationships between us."

OK, so explain what it means ... either way.

I just do not understand the concept that is attempted to be conveyed by these words.

Also, with all respect, the question was addressed to the author who asked for comment and explanations. I'm doing the same.

Thank you.

Mary Cunningham:

Your prose you present seems similar to the following song lyrics:

I once had a girl
Or should I say, she once had me
She showed me her room
Isnt it good, Norweigan wood

or..

Let me bring you songs from the wood:
To make you feel much better than you could know.
Dust you down from tip to toe.
Show you how the garden grows.
Hold you steady as you go.
Join the chorus if you can:
Itll make of you an honest man.
Let me bring you love from the field:
Poppies red and roses filled with summer rain.
To heal the wound and still the pain
That threatens again and again
As you drag down every lovers lane.
Lifes long celebrations here.
Ill toast you all in penny cheer.
Let me bring you all things refined:
Galliards and lute songs served in chilling ale.
Greetings well met fellow, hail!
I am the wind to fill your sail.
I am the cross to take your nail:
A singer of these ageless times.
With kitchen prose and gutter rhymes.
Songs from the wood make you feel much better.

Mary Cunningham,

I like your Irish Saints:

ST. KEVIN - He didn't move for three days because he didn't want to disturb the blackbird that was resting on his arm.

He must have been a Buddhist, perhaps a Wiccan.

ST. PATRICK - He summoned up a herd of wild boar to feed a group of starving sailors he was travelling with.

He must have been a Shaman. That's what shamans do all over the world - summon animals for food. Hawaiian shamans are known for summoning schools of fish and dolphins. Perhaps St. Patrick was also a Wiccan.

I've really liked Yeats's poetry since I was in college. He was Church of Ireland of course. My Irish ancestors, I fear, were dissenting Protestants. What a shame. They missed out on all the drama, finery, color, and great music of Irish Anglo-Catholicism.

St Kevin and the Blackbird

Note--in the end--this is also about prayer, the saint's body *becomes* his prayer:

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Museum/3655/heaney.html#St.%20Kevin%20and%20the%20Blackbird

I love this poem, and note the shape-shifting, a mark of the pagan Celt. Here it is, just for Starhawk:

The Song of the Wandering Aengus

I went out to the hazel wood,
Because a fire was in my head,
And cut and peeled a hazel wand,
And hooked a berry to a thread;
And when white moths were on the wing,
And moth-like stars were flickering out,
I dropped the berry in a stream
And caught a little silver trout.

When I had laid it on the floor
I went to blow the fire a-flame,
But something rustled on the floor,
And someone called me by my name:
It had become a glimmering girl
With apple blossom in her hair
Who called me by my name and ran
And faded through the brightening air.

http://www.bartleby.com/146/9.html

WB Yeats, "The Wind Among the Reeds", 1899.

Well, Starhawk, I am not sure about being a pagan in today's modern age, but I am sure about being a Celt--Celtic Irish-- and I thought I would add a bit about Celtic Christianity in general and St Brigit in particular.

Firstly, I've written elsewhere that the Irish Celts conversion to Christianity was peaceful...more than peaceful, it was joyous & unleashed an enormous amount of creative energy in a peculiarly Celtic fashion. Irish saints were dotty, well, eccentric, in an essentially Irish sort of way. One of St Patrick's greatest miracles was the summoning up of wild boars to feed a group of starving sailors he was travelling with. I love it! Don't you? Jesus brought forth loaves & fishes, but the Irish would have none of that. A miracle for them HAD to include bacon, we're not real fond of fish & that is the truth.

St Kevin is another one--Seamus Heaney wrote a poem about him. He was one of those crazy Irish monks meditating in his wee beehive hermit cave, when a blackbird landed on one of his arms. Well, he wouldn't move at all for three days because he didn't want to disturb the blackbird.

St Brigit, I would think, was real. Celts often took the names of their Gods for their offspring--Aengus is another name still popular today, as btw is Brigit. And the saint was a formidable woman--drew on the Celtic tradition of matriarchy as well as St Paul exhortation for women to serve God. She was a formidable woman, although I do not think she focused much upon Celtic fertility, Celtic women being able to manage their own fertility, thanks-very-much.

So Brigit's namesake was canonized, not the fertility goddess herself. And the sacred Celtic symbol of the circle was fused to the symbol of the cross, giving us the very beautiful image of the Celtic cross, that is much with us today.

Blessed be.....the Lord God, creator and sustainer of the universe, giver of life, who was and is and always will be.

The physical will not endure forever...better to honor the creator, not the creation.

In this is true......peace

tday and bgone
There are pagan blogs that answer your anger and rage back go to these and attack those people I would welcome it. Leave the peacekeepers,makers and the beautiful like Starhawk alone. Thank for your beautiful words. Blessed be.

Below are two poems I wrote which express the form of prayer I practice:

Sunset, Night and Dawn.

Within without, Without within,
As dancing upon air so thin:
The opalescence of kaleidoscopic sky,
Mirroring this intimate reflexive I.

The brilliance of the day now spent
The parting of the firmament:
Unfolds a lover's longing's wings,
In sweet rhapsodic flutterings.

My heart unfurls itself, twining,
An ecstasy of desperate pining:
Breaks open seals of sacred portals,
Beyond which cannot pass mere mortals.

Love pulses, in the dead of night,
An absent form of perfect light:
The dawn of silent harbinger's of thee,
Radiance, glory and serenity.

Rapture

Now: An elongated moment of naked longing.

The musk of your love, breaths my drunkenness.
Your sun, rising and setting, births my Phoenix.

I gaze into your depths, and dissolve into emptiness.
Standing upon your mountain, the firmament parts.

Everywhere in everything, you jump out to greet me.
Through each form a spark of luminescent presence.

Lost in your eyes:
An enveloping rapture of limitless awe.

I am me, in and through you.

DW,
How can I explain Wiccan thought to someone that does not know the language. We speak in poetry or prose about our myths...a myth is a kernal of truth with imaginative understanding wrapped around it.

I can only talk about my tradition's view of Creation. We believe in science... and believe that science is a revelation of Creation. Science tells us how the universe is made.. it is the reaction to the Action of the Gods.
We turn that science into poetry...or seems lately that science is catching up to us.

Goddess is...She brought forth Kronus (Time) out of Ouranos (chaos)...and with Kronus brought Man and Gods.

That is the very simple way of thinking about it. God/dess is all there is. All Life is Hers. She births..while the God is the energy of the birth. There is not one without the other. She is the Spark of all life, He is the flame. For us two are One. God and Goddess is the Initiator of life.
--------------

A tiny part of the story of Creation-

When thunder roars in the heavens and lightening cracks from the ground, the Lord and Lady dance the divine myth of creation so that we may remember Them and know that we are never alone, and that we are one. When the sun rises each morning, we bask in the joy of His love for us, and when the moon moves through Her phases, we understand the cycle of birth, growth, death, and rebirth, as is the nature of all things, and we honor Her power. But as the humans began to grow and prosper, they forgot about Their divine parents. Although the Lord and Lady called to their children, they did not listen. They were lost, fighting the demons they themselves had created.
------------------

The sun and moon are symbols..no we do not worship them..but honor them because without them we would not be.

Blessings,

To Anon: You complain about not being able to understand and then ask: "What is "immanent" - maybe a typo for "imminent?"

For goodness sake! Immanent and imminent are 2 different words with entirely different meanings. Try a dictionary! In my experience people who complain about not being able to understand are usually those who are too lazy to do their own homework.

BGONE:

You left out the end of the scenario you painted, my friend.

If you are an adult..I would be most suprised.

Gee DW, that's the way to dodge a question. Now when did adultry cause anyone to get locked up, recently? I see you think it's a criminal offence.

Athena,

Thanks for the info.

Re: 6000 years: Yes, that is another misconception due to the King James trnanslation of the bible. Thru study, one finds that the first verse of Genesis states, in the original Hebrew,"In a beginning.." ..emphasis on the 'a'. God does not create things that are void and without form. The rebellion of satan did its number on the universe, including our planet.

BGONE:

Perhaps you can look at it in a more simplistic way: My answer to you would be that God doesnt want one to do the things you stated above. Why? Probably so one will not have to sit in jail and waste life away behind bars and 3 block walls? The natural progression of a dialogue like this is "Why doesn't the law of the land want one to do that". My perception: we have, at the very least, a problem with authority here...in all respects.

One of my sources of knowing what God wants is thru the very the scenario you just painted. There is no human like me or you that could have ever compiled moral laws to live by.

DW,

In answer to your question about the Wiccan view of Creation, we believe in the process of evolution as set out by scientists. However, Wiccans, for the most part, believe that "higher beings", or the God/dess are present throughout the Universe, and that we are all connected to the Divine. It's kind of hard to explain, and Wicca doesn't have a "dogma" like most Judeo-Christian-Islamic religions. But I can guarantee you that no Wiccan believes that the Earth is only 6,000 years old.

DW - you seem sure you know what God wants. Forgetting that God is almighty for the moment, how are you so sure God doesn't want us to do adultry, that's stealing some else's huny, lie about it, and that God dosen't want the boys to kill each other over it? What is your source of what God wants?

Stated above:

"The best way to do gods in my opinion is in the classroom where the stupid mistakes people have made relying on them can be discussed in a controlled enviornment"

True...many stupid mistakes have been made by people. But people cannot blame God for their mistakes when they put other gods before Him ,or take His name in vain, or not really keep the Sabbath day (that was set aside for mans benefit), or kill, or steal or lie or commit adultery with the woman next door. Every one of the commmandments, though not all mentioned, apply here. People question God's involvement in war. Mankind invented war, Mankind decided to do it his own way. Some men, though not fully in tune with what God intended, found/find themselves in war and entreat God for help. And yes, God has at times, and at other times has not, helped..according to His purpose, which for all the ages of man has been questioned (His purpose) by puny mankind. He has the perogavtive to choose due to the fact He, and only He, can give that life back and an opportunity to learn it the right way...which He will do when the Kingdom of God is established. Even when it comes to war, and when mankind still chooses war century after century, God sees that we still dont get it, that He would fight any battles we may have, but He, with certain regret, allows us to learn the hard way, just as a human father does for a stubborn, human son.

And by the way, there is a good news in the gospel of Jesus Christ. That is- His return to earth, setting up His kingdom for all of mankind, and for those who so choose, to have a chance to follow His laws without the influence of satan the devil, and live the abundant life that the keeping of those laws will ensure.

There is a universal human longing and response to an ineffable force, call it God, Nature, or anything you wish. It could be biological or a spark of the devine, but it is undeniable.

The Wiccan prayer response is remarkably similar to the Christian prayer response described by Marcus Borg. The difference is in the object of the prayer, but if the response of the subject is the same, maybe it's a clue that the path to God is non-exclusive.

To the author

I don't want to be disrespectful, but I truly don't understand what you have written means, if anything.

Here is one sentence:
"Our prayers are to the Goddess—but also to our community, for the Goddess is immanent in us and in the relationships between us."

What does this mean? What is "immanent" - maybe a typo for "imminent?" Whichever it is, immanent or imminent, can you explain what that sentence means.

Dear Starhawk,

I want to thank you for an excellent definition of prayer..."that which mediates between our human minds and that which we cannot envision or even imagine." Never be discouraged by people who would define "prayer" only in a sectarian or doctrinal way.
I am a United Methodist minister.

To Starhawk or other wiccan followers:

I was wondering what your beliefs are with regard to creation and/or evolution? Do you believe their was some kind of creator of our earth and all that it encompasses (am not sure if you see things similarly to atheist thought)? If not, and we can agree that mankind has the ability to design and create many things to a completion, could/do you consider that there is a being that may have accomplished the very same for us? As intricate as a video camera can be, do you perceive that the human eye could be a reality just by chance? (Questions not to provoke..I apologize if they seem so...just curious as to your thought)

The creator of the universe does see what we have done to their creation. But, just as loving human parents do for the most part, God is letting man learn lessons on his own (that is the way we have chosen to do it..any way you look at it). Good parents dont cram things down the throats of their children. With our spiritual parent, the same is true.

Mankind, as free moral agents, can have a part in how their judgement day will go. But those who have not really understood mankinds purpose on earth will have a chance to so in that day of judgement, if they so choose.

STARHAWK - all prayers are virtually worthless beyond giving one that good warm feeling befor an anvil falls from the sky and smashes them. When that happens it's customery and usual to say God did it. In your case I suppose that's a god did it, the god that controls things falling from the sky.

In my case I find gods to be comedy relief in tense situations. When I'm losing my money at the Indian casino for example I chalk it up to my god, George, being weaker than their god, what's it's name. I reconsile my losses by saying the little Indian children need shoes and I am actually giving my money to charity. Why can't I deduct it from my taxes?

How do gods of war work? The side that makes the greatest sacrifice to their god is supposed to win but then the sacrifice can weaken rather than strengthen. I think that's part of the point I was trying to make noticing that the "divine wind" is not reliable and trying to force the issue weakens rather than strengthen.

The best way to do gods in my opinion is in the classroom where the stupid mistakes people have made relying on them can be discussed in a controlled enviornment. There are truly children of lesser gods determined by the statistical analysis of what's happening on earth at any given time so far. Lesser gods are avoidable by having no gods at all but then there's the undeniable god, George without whom KENO would be a nightmare. I say, "come now George. We can do better than that."

It's true there is no such thing as absolute freedom. But the lack of freedom only emphasise cause and effects of the environment, as well as desires. The Western freedom for example is driven by a patriotic sentiment; the individual's life is centered on the protection of its dream and its values. And this is the source of everything including culture and religion. God is seen from Western eyes, and God must place the West above and before all other citizens and nations.

This is illustrated from the posts on this board, how reason must conclude the psyche of the West. There is no mutual ground, no neutral position; it's either them or us.

The secular socialization of its psyche has elevated the material the ultimate end of all reasons and thus limiting its thinking capacity within the confined of material science and its linear mindedness.

It is demonstrated in here when posters consistently ask for material proof of functional concepts, and metaphysical entity or symbolic language of the Bible. Failing to make sense of the language, some resort to making up their own interpretations with unrelated comparisons!

Secular societies continue to erode social values and mental abilities upholding them as they seek to fulfill their material expectations.

Secularity only serves a temporary economic purpose at the detriment of society and civilisation in the long run. Well, environmental pollution is a result of lack of values, homeless and poverty is a result of profit, and the need to fulfill desires from the lack of has all led to violence, crime, terrorism, and war.

I know it's slightly getting out of the topic in here, so I will suggest that prayer serves a purpose to enhance thinking away from oneself, and away from own physical needs or desires to the needs of others.

Hey folks--I'd love to hear other people's personal experiences with prayer, or celebrations of Brigid. I'd love to hear some of the Christians talk about what your actual relationship is with Jesus, how you pray, what comes to you in response? I'm less interested in Bible verses and admonitions, but remind us all that no one forces you to read what doesn't interest us on these lists. And I'm fine with crticism--but constructive criticism is specific. That is, if you think what I write is a load of crap, I'd like to know what, specifically, do you disagree with? What has triggered your anger or disappointed your hopes. That's a response I might learn something from. But overall, again, I ask people to be respectful of others even when you disagree. I am honored by those who have posted that they don't always agree with me (how alarming if someone always did!) but find the posts stimulating. That's my intention. And thanks to all who have expressed appreciation and good wishes. That means a lot.

The consuming fire at Judgement Day will be our pollution, trash dumps, oil spills, and nuclear waste burning.

Man, not God, is setting up the Judgement Day Fire with all their pollution, that is also breaking the Ozone layer.

For those that believe God and Jesus will return before the consuming Fire, it is about time that we stop all the polluting and killing, before our nuclear weapons on land and sea, blow up our planet.

It is time for Man to at least see that everyone has a place to live, clothes to wear and food to eat, and stop the killing and try to clean up our planet before the company we are expecting from Space arrives. It take action to do this not prayer.

Do we really want God and Jesus to see what we have done to their Creation?

Peace.

Blessings to you Starhawk!
It is such an inspiration to see you here. I enjoy your outlook on what's happening in the world. It helps me to understand my own feelings that aren't well represented in the media and mainstream culture.
I celebrated by starting my seeds for the early spring garden and planting my pledge and intentions with them. While the weather is still in winter's grip, there was signs of the coming rebirth of life on the walk I took with the dogs in the woods.
I know you walk the high road and will not let naysayers get you down...please know that there are folks out here who greatly appreciate what you do!
Christabelle

BGONE:

As a follow up...the use of the word 'hell' in the bible is nothing less than King James era (mis)understanding, which is riddled with error and mistranslation. 'Hell' usage replaced words such as sheol, tartaroo, gehenna, etc (words from original Hebrew and Greek), each referring to 'the grave' or 'a consuming fire' ..which the only fire that will be experienced is that which comes after the time of final judgement, reserved for those that will not accept God's offer to really know Him. As for now, the bible is clear that all in the grave 'sleep' until the resurrection. Additionally, as Jesus Christ said, 'no man has ascended to heaven'...so there is no harp playing going on while sitting on a cloud. That, too, is myth that came along long after Christ walked the earth.

TDAY:

I forgot to mention the following: If you decide to use the on-line Bible to copy/paste text to this post, it is a good idea to normalize the text first to get single line spacing, and to remove any pictures. If you copy/paste to a WORD document, do a SELECT ALL and click on the pull down arrow in a box labeled "AA". Then select "Clear formatting", giving text that makes a better copy/paste to this post. Sorry if you already knew that.

To TDAY (and others):

God bless you and I am with you. As you know, God's words are already written, and so those of us Christians who repond to things on this site should make every effort to use God's words more than our own. I am preaching to myself too.

I recognize that this is exactly what you intended by providing Book, chapter and verse above. However, bear in mind that many in this crowd do not own a Bible. Not a problem. There is a website: "http://christiananswers.net/bible that is so wonderful for use here. It is a web Bible that allows you to search Book and chapter. It also has many embedded links to defintions for certain words in the text. You can copy/paste from it to your post here. No major keystrokes. I love it.

BRAMBLETON: let me humbly apologise for my stupidity. I am so embarassed I don't know what to do. Should I shoot myself or take posin?

I see God broke God's own rules and did it right away or was that a prude hoax writer worried about nudity? The Devil probably made God do that.

As for the two "divine winds" I thought that it was the same war and didn't understand I needed to account for every blow struck. I was actually talking about what seems to be 2 wars they had with the same seaborne enemy that lasted longer than I actually realized so your superior intelligence wins that one and of course WW2 was the one where God failed big time.

But nevertheless let me honor your extreme knowledge and genious. Now where do I send the money so I can be properly saved? Anyone as ignorant and uneducated as me is surley on someone's list as a prime candidate for hell whereas geniouses like yourself are automatically saved.

Maybe you should review your advanced study program "Looney Tunes" again and try hard to understand Wyle E Coyote, genious. Something seems to be backfiring on you. It's time for you to go back to the old drawing board. Your sacred scriptures are the word of Devil, unless of course you admit they are a hoax. You're way too smart to do that are you not?

I believe the imminent One, the source of all that is, inspired women and men in the language of their lives and communities, and has done so in every sacred and evolving tradition. Our cultural and religious roots are more shamanic and earth centered in their earliest inklings, then later, after generations, larger revelations inspired this, then another group, expanding an awareness that naturally fragments as cultures migrate, and as new generations follow their own inner promptings. We need far more tolerance and much less condemnation if we're ever going to reconcile ourselves responsibly to one another. Let us pass on the vitriol and reach a little higher to find some common ground...

Give BGONE this much, at least he's consistent with his lies.

BGONE states, "Their sacred scriptures tells them right up front, Genesis 3:19 "You will eat your bread by the sweat of your brows" putting the big kerbash on help from God." ----- Odd, two sentences later, Genesis 3:21 says, "The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them." God clothed their nakedness? Hmmm. Sounds like help to me!

More hysterical commentary from the "un-learned" one BGONE when he writes, "The Japanese found the weather god, the "divine wind" to be a great help at war once but couldn't get a repeat performance. Probably a case of faulty praying or something equally innocent." ----- In fact, Qubilai Khan TWICE attempted to invade Japan in search of gold. The FIRST attempt was in 1274 and the SECOND in 1281. BOTH times, BAD WEATHER destroyed the fleets.

I came to this website to learn all I can about religions of all kinds. I am so glad that so many beliefs/religions are represented.

I think it is inexcuseable that many of these people (you know who you are) go from person to person on this website to just to make trouble. Didn't your parents teach you that if you have nothing good to say you should not say anything at all? You people need to get a life!

Why do some people come on this page and make such rude comments? You come here by choice... you know Starhawk will answer the questions in a Wiccan mind set... yet you come here, read it and troll.

If you are going to read about Wiccan beliefs, then maybe you need to do some research...I can give you a good reading list.

Blessed Be!

Starhawk Merry Meet!

It was a joy to enter this site and see Bridget's name. I look for your posts each time I come on here...you are a window through which I can see the horizon.

We have such a small foot print on mainstream sites, and when we do make our presence known we get slights and discrimination. But at least you were asked to be a panalist here, and for that I thank Goddess.

My group also celebrated Friday it was wonderful, we blessed seeds we will plant in the spring and celebrated the Esbat.

Hear now the words of the witches,
The secrets we hid in the night,
When dark was our destiny's pathway,
That now we bring forth into the light.

Starhawk, don't let the tiny minds turn you away.

Blessed Be!
terra

Starhawk,

Blessed Imbolc to you, too. I love this Sabbat that falls in the deepest part of mid-Winter. For me, it's a time to take wild risks.

Gee whiz DW:

Gospel, (good news?) according to:

Matthew 5:22 ...shall be guilty enough to go to fiery hell.

Matthew 18:9 "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better to enter life with one eye, than have two eyes and be cast into fiery hell."

There's different wordings in different versions of the Bible. The ones above come from the "New American Standard Bible" (something wrong with the old ones, Bibles?).

Matthew 18:9 is the one hoax buster uses to prove Jesus was at the cusp when hell was being upgraded from "condition of dead body" [Jesus says a missing eye will still be missing when one "enters life"] to hell as a "fiery" place.

Hoax buster also locates hell from that passage and others. Hell lies beneath the nebol bridge. The nebol bridge joins this life to the next life. Real simple. You die and leave this life. To get to "life" you be "reborn" on the nebol bridge and cross it. There's a demon on the bridge that only those with a Christ will get past. All others, those who are not "saved" will get the big boot over the side of the bridge and fall down to "fiery hell" that lies under the bridge. HB has ancient pictures of it.

Give it a try http://www.hoax-buster.org Don't be the last to find out the Bible is a proved hoax. Jesus lived a long time before year 1, at about the time "a" Pharaoh invented a place called hell. Prior to that time it was necessary to hack up the bodies of the dead before they came back to life on the nebol bridge. Otherwise, whole bodied killed would be waiting for their killers. We have native Americans, primitive godless people to tell ua all about that. The Sioux demonstrated that process at the battle of the Little Big horn, better known as Custer's last stand.

Hell is very understandable as the maximum terror at terrorist, Pharaoh could think up. It's the same one that terrorizes Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Billy Graham, the pope, evangelicals in general and causes them to terrorize the children with threats of hell taken from the hoax known as the Holy Bible, all versions.

Both saying there is not an ever burning hell that people are dancing in. Myth came along loooooong after scripture was written.

Thanks a lot DW. And you too TDAY. Now which one of you am I supposed to believe?

BGONE:

There will, though, be a consuming fire at the time of judgement. Consuming means consuming, not dancing around on hot rocks for eternity. Its all there in scripture.

BGONE,

Sorry, there are not, and will be no humans being pitchforked in hell for eternity...so, consequently, no tickets are really being sold. Just another myth, not totally unlike witchcraft, that creeped into religion without any divine inspiration.

TDAY:

Interpretation 1501 of Exodus, http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul Please hurry! The price of a ticket to hell is rapidly going out of sight what with government subsidies.

I trust Wiccans aren't hadicapped by God like Christians who are forbidden to pray at all. Their sacred scriptures tells them right up front, Genesis 3:19 "You will eat your bread by the sweat of your brows" putting the big kerbash on help from God. Your group is allowed to accept all the help that can be had form supernatural beings of all kinds? I thought so.

Like the preacher told Patton, "it takes a pretty thick rug for that kind of praying, asking God to help you kill" to say nothing of God's command to "do it yourself" and leave God out of it. Wiccans just call on the god of war and have a go at it? I guess it's a "do it yourself" in both cases but your group can get help if the other side didn't scoop you, get war god's blessing first. Pray as soon as you can as well as be sincere and of course pary hard. Got it.

The Japanese found the weather god, the "divine wind" to be a great help at war once but couldn't get a repeat performance. Probably a case of faulty praying or something equally innocent.

Exodus 20:3
Deuteronomy 18:10
Jeremiah 10:1-2
John 1:1-5
Galatians 5:19-23
Heb 13:8

Starhawk,
I find I don't always completely agree with everything you say, but you speak wonderfully of Brigid and touch upon the mysteries of prayer that we all experience at the Sabbats. If everyone was able to touch the divine, they would realize the critical importance of prayer and ritual.
Blessed Imbolc!

Dear StarHawk,
I love Celtic music and culture to the limited extent that I know it. Enya seems to embody some of the precepts you mention. I do not know what her religion is, but as far as God, or Creation is concerned, it really does not matter does it? Please pray for S. Parrick. A mother of three, a Wiccan of tortured but somehow sustained beauty. God Bless you and yours always StarHawk, always. amen.

ABD,

Crap is usually in the eye of the beholder, as it is in this case, not in Starhawk's inspired writing.

what a bunch of crap!