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P.S.

From the Reclaiming Website:
"The 'W' Word. Or Why We Call Ourselves Witches" by M. Macha NightMare:

http://www.reclaiming.org/about/witchfaq/witch-word.html

I agree. I identify as a Witch, not a Wiccan. to me, there are many similarities, but to me the two are not synonymous.

But the question was beyond *me* and what *I* want to see. If Starhawk explicitly identified as Wiccan, or another type of Pagan altogether, then I wouldn't have asked. It's only because the use of the word Witch tends to be, from my experience, prevalent within the Reclaiming community, as well as in Starhawk's writing. and I was wondering if there was another reason why it wasn't being used here.

Well, just my opinion, but I think the idea of trying to use 'Witch' as synonymous with Wiccan, is just way past its sell-by date. More likely to refer to defamation than any sense of empowerment.

Basically, it mostly just confuses people, particularly when talking about *religion.* I think the community itself has a sense (or a few of them) of what it really means to us, but I certainly haven't missed seeing the word here.

I've been reading the past few blog posts, and I've been thinking of something I'd like to ask Starhawk:

So far on this blog, I've seen you described and describe yourself as Pagan, Wiccan, and part of a Goddess-tradition.

Yet in your writing, in the NFB Documentaries, and in the Principles of Reclaiming, there is mention of proudly using the word "Witch". Is there any reason why this word hasn't been used here?

Did you choose not to use it, or has it been requested by News Week/Washington Post that you not use that word to describe your belief system?

I really agree, Dragon on the relations thing. I think the ecological activities come as a function of organization: I wouldn't be afraid to call on the local Pagan community for anything going on: even some of those folks who may seem like 'Party Pagans' may have more going on than you think, too. :)

(Some Druids have a not-generally-deserved rep for stuffiness, for the other part. But it is a good interaction, and pretty much everyone can get together on the environmental stuff, to one degree or another. )

And don't forget that which is going on under other auspices than Pagan groups; there's plenty of folks already there, (and it's not a bad place to meet folks, too.)

Bright blessings: had some more thoughts, but concentration's been shot all day. :)

I hear you, Paganplace. :)

Sometimes, just for kicks, I remind my Muslim friends that Allah used to have a wife named Aisha. (Where did she go? Off to party with Pan?) But I am not going to attempt to try to convey or communicate about the Abrahamic desert religious...although I feel that their young gods need a good spankings from their elders. LOL

I wasn't addressing Starhawk, who is well aware of male deities... I was (I hope) subtlely reminding Wiccans that there is an entire cosmology that ***also*** includes male deities, devas, ancestors, Sidhe, etc. Also the realms include deities that are neither male nor female. Also, Wiccans should be aware that when they say "The Goddess" or the "Goddess' consort" the nearby druids are flinching and perhaps innwardly recoiling, but are too polite to say so.

Fortunately for Wicca and Druidism in general, we have a good relationship - we have events together often, and for the most part live cohesively amongst each other.

It would do the Neo Pagan movement a lot of good if the two groups learned more about each other though, and the points we meet and unfortunately do not meet in our outlooks and ritual. In the present, the two are related, and it would be wonderful for both sexes of both faiths if we could teach each other more and work together more, especially ecologically, as many of our planet's ecosystems are in their 11th hour. :(

I personally would like to see more eco-based Neo Pagan activities rather than one party after another... Let us Neo Pagans get together and plant trees, pick up trash, raise money for the rainforest, teach the community at large about permaculture. Neo Pagans are the guardians of all that is wild and fragile on Mother Earth.

Oh, and, thanks, BTW, Starhawk. I usually find it amusing when someone goes, "Oh, What's her/his/your *real name* to just look at em intently and ask, "What's yours? Your. Real. Name." :)

Apologies for the length, but I guess the main point is that that's not an easy subject to cover in bloggy comment form.

And there's really manifold reasons why it's a 'tough subject to tackle.' You do hear a lot of "Why don't we talk more about the male Gods! This is matriarchy!" When often it's really about things more along the lines of Wicca being originally a very Mystery-oriented tradition: "If I told you, you wouldn't know: You'd only have been told."

Proselytizing about our Gods isn't just a 'no-no,' too, it's also kind of a pointless idea: so many of these public debates are really just about our right to *exist in society,* not convince anyone of some specifics.

I personally chose to follow a Wiccan path precisely *because* one of my first experiences after accepting the Goddess was, really, *Her* saying, "Ok, there's someone you need to learn from, *right now.* You in?

When I found out who it was, I was like, "Ok. This is a *very* male being, here. *Wait a minute, I just got over the idea that 'Religion' was a hobgoblin of male arrogance and abuse, so Your Patient Self could be Goddess, like that was ever the point anyway, ...and I'm not particularly OK with the Unfairer Sex right now... "

Well, I won't elaborate, but to me, anyway, that was *exactly* the point of 'Why Wicca.' Cause, as much as Paganism really was for me the oft-spoken of 'Coming Home,' ...not so much a conversion as a way of acknowledging what I had always felt anyway, that challenge regarding male Deities was *hard.* I could have put up a shrine to the Goddess and said, 'This is enough,' ...but, when looking around for 'what to do with it,' I found what 'we' generally tend to find: This isn't a religion of *converts,* ....it's a religion of *seekers.* It's not about "ending up" with the 'right answers,' never mind *starting* with them.

I think in today's world, it's easy enough to talk about how 'The Goddess' is missing from so much of our thought, and how that hurts us.

It takes a little more elaboration to talk about 'A Goddess,' ...but ideas of "The God" have a lot of cultural baggage even in the language, whereas 'A God' is something people are maybe *too* assured they know all about, usually in the wrong terms: namely, an idea of 'obeisance to greatness.' (in those terms, you end up with somewhere between, "Your God is my Satan!" and "Oh, yeah, well, *my* God is Infinity *plus two!*" Not terribly productive in terms of advocating the Wiccan right to *not do that.* :) )

Wicca's not a 'revealed tradition.' Don't expect Wiccans to treat it as such. (even if a few of us have some mystical experiences to reluctantly cite. :) ) It's not even about *explaining the world.* It's about *experiencing it.*

More is said *about* Wiccans than *by* Wiccans. Part of this comes from the common expectation that 'Religion' wants and needs certain kinds of power and control and 'certainty' and 'definitiveness' and 'completeness' and 'authoritativeness' that aren't actually all that important in the Wiccan worldview.

Most of these things are about Christians and Christian-cultured atheists demanding, "Explain yourself in my terms!"

We're almost through the Goddess part. :) Getting there, anyway. :)

Well, I hesitate to speak for someone who seems to read and post here, herself, but it's important to understand, too, that Starhawk, influential Goddess theologian as she is, (and is pretty much on everyone's required reading list) does come from some very feminist-Goddess-spirituality roots. If she comes off *specialized* in this, well, she's not writing Bibles, she's doing theology and a lot of other things.

I hardly find her exclusionary of the male Gods, but keep in mind that Wicca itself has its roots in a *very male-female heterosexual 'balance'* sort of paradigm, (really, cause that's what those folks were doing at the time: more modern forms were way ahead of the curve on accepting other forms of 'love and pleasure' as sacred, precisely because of some of these attitudes.

I think a lot of the perceived absence of male Gods from a lot of the Internet talk is partly because it's hard enough to try and speak for (hopefully most) Pagans without trying to get into specific stories and myths, as dear as they might be.

In short, I think, as I've found, that it's just a lot easier to *generalize* in this kind of discourse about The Goddess than 'The God,' and that's part of why we don't see much about the subject. It's also really harder to speak of 'The God' *not* in terms of personalities or even just more specific abstractions. Not that anyone *has* to, either.

We could speak of those terms in generalities like that active, vital, moving force in the world, sacred kingship, the tutelary and protective functions, ...and plenty of male Wiccans do... (though I think a lot of the better talkers tend to go into various forms of Druidry and Reconstructionism, for the more obvious intellectual appeals of those practices, which only reinforces the perception that 'Wicca is for girls.' I think it only takes one Pagan festival to see we're all (well, many of us) are really part of a broadly-interactive community, though.

What some see as fractiousness, I tend to see as a real diversity that doesn't have to, and usually *doesn't* prevent us all from circling up and dancing it.

When I 'priestess' for guys, I *do* most certainly speak of the male Gods, (and especially *heroes,* even more importantly, I seem to find, and you wouldn't believe my library on things Celtic: I've participated in Druidry; the scholarship is infectious, and tends to result in me saying things that few understand: remember the Colloquy of the Sages?)

...in fact, the song I happened to be playing when I picked my screen-name is really *all about* 'The God,' if you will. (Waterboys, check em out.)

Actually, ...you can look to the songs men sing, in and as part of this society, however repressive. Christian Fundamentalists used to say, "The Devil is in the music," and I'd smile and say, "No, but I know who is." :)

Obviously it's mostly not from a Wiccan *point of view,* or a Wiccan *world,* but... Who's singing about it?

It'd be pretty silly to honour and venerate something that wasn't in fact there, wouldn't it?

It's there.

And a lot of really awesome Pagan men don't *need to be told.* In this Lady's world, some others just seem to feel to need 'permission.' But this doesn't come from a God's authority. (even by emulation.) It comes from a worldview of not *needing* it. This is in songs and stories.

And my prayers and, umm, observances. :)

I do love Starhawk to pieces, as she is an AMAZING eco-warrior and pro-permaculture representative. With that said, as a Druid, I hope that some female-only-centered Wiccans and goddess worshippers can someday find room in their hearts for individual gods and other male deities and male spirits in their belief system. (More than being generic consorts, that is.) After all, this dialogue string is supposedly about sex, yet there have been mentions of sex with the exclusion of all of these individual wonderful goddesses' lovers. What is Anu without Cernunnos? What is Isis without Osirus? Of course there are many devas, nature spirits, and elementals that are neither male nor female, but it is a beautiful thing to have all three within our heart - the female, the male, and that which is neither.

Marco,

I had posted this a earlier but...

Witchvox is an excellent source of community posed articles on a variety of subjects and from a variety of Pagan paths, but most are Wiccan or Wicca inspired.

Another site is Mind-N-Magick's Paganpedia project, which is a fork of Wikipdeia. It takes a more neutral point of view in its articles then Witchvox regarding Pagan religions and most articles include cited references or an additional reading list.

If you would like to ask questions of those who are actually part of the Pagan community, I recommend MysticWicks Online Pagan Community and Mind-N-Magick's Pagan Forum.

Others may have their favorites, but these have been identified as the most popular sites by Alexa.com. I presume it's because of the diversity presented by each.

Yours in the Gods.

I am intrigued by this. I would love to learn more about Wicca and its dieties. If you have any good information fo rme, then please feel free to let me have them. I know I am of no use to this post on the subject, so I'd rather be eduacated on it in case it comes up again.

It may also be of interest to those who do not know or who are not Pagan that the quote ("All acts of love and pleasure are My rituals") is from a poem called "The Charge of the Goddess", written by Doreen Valiente. While it is true that it has been incorporated into the liturgy of many Wiccan traditions, it is not generally seen as scripture and has been and is often modified.

Yours in the Gods.

Well hey, my 'real' name is not Jim, and I don't know how Jim managed to post as me. Starhawk is the name I've used since 1975 and the name I write under, and it feels most 'real' to me. My given name, however, is Miriam, and I'm a woman.

It's an interesting discussion--just to say that the blog format does indeed limit the complexity of any subject, and I have written on this much more extensively, particularly in Dreaming the Dark and Truth or Dare--both written when I was considerably younger and in graduate school, giving them a combined erotic/intellectual intensity that I probably won't ever equal again.

I think it's significant that love and pleasure are joined in the quote above. It doesn't say "Acts of love and/or pleasure." So I read it as meaning the pleasure that is joined with love is the kind of pleasure that is sacred to the Goddess. Pleasure devoid of love is like junk food. Pleasure conjoined with love is relational, not merely material. And please don't blame Ronald Reagan on the poor Unitarians! Starhawk

A Handle,

"Anonymous" did not write that, I did. It was a continuation of a single post addressing two individuals. I probably should not do that again to avoid confusion.

I don't believe I was being derogatory, but simply providing a reasonable analysis. I'm not being specifically critical of what Starhawk wrote or her opinions, and was addressing Anonymous' comment about "derailing of the article".

It is true that what we have here are those on one side praising Starhawk for her "spiritual" insight and on the other making comments like "total wacky theology" or "...none of this is 'theology' but merely sensible rules of engagement with oneself, others, and the world."

While "most 'established religions' use all sorts of strictures, rituals and taboos to enforce rules of engagement", don't fall into the myth that Pagans and Pagan religions are not or are not becoming dogmatic. There is a strong element within Pagandom to limit what is acceptable Pagan thought and behavior based on specific principles and tenets. Very often these principles are based on nothing more then the personal opinions of a charismatic and eloquent individual who wraps thier political and social commentary in spiritual language.

Yours in the Gods.

Mad Love,

Personal gnosis is "knowledge" gained through direct personal experience, typically by contemplation or (at times) mystical experience. It is an individual's spiritual insights that are valid to them without being generally applied others. While many Pagans (of course not all) recognize personal gnosis as valuable to individual spirituality, many groups spurn its use to make statements or assertions that are applied beyond one's own personal spirituality.

Personal gnosis, in some sense, may be considered theology but it is the difference between the study of religious sources and individual personal insight.

Yours in the Gods.

To the readers;
Before any anonymous reader considers making a derogatory remark regarding the MISSPELLING in my previous post of "scared sexuality" (which should be corrected to "sacred sexuality"). Don't make my error a reason for ridicule. My daughters don't deserve that and neither does Starhawk. We are all women deserving of respect. Thank you for your consideration.

Starhawk,
Thank you for being so insightful regarding scared sexuality in the Craft. I raised a number of foster girls in their teens who had suffered greatly through sexual abuse. Their confusion regarding the abuse, the effects of it on their emotional and psychological development and their concerns regarding their ability to enjoy and give sexuality a healthy place in their adult lives was a significant source of stress for these young women. As they gained their legal adulthood, I shared the Craft view of sacred sexuality with them. I took them to a festival for them to see first hand how body is not all about sex and getting laid. They have all since become healthy women of influence in their community, happy with their roles as women in their relationships with spouse and children...and DEFINITELY Wiccan in their spiritual walk. Thank you for your teachings and guidance to this new generation of young adults in the Craft community. Thanks.

Love your Neighbor as your self. Treat others the way you would like to be treated. I think these Commandments/Rules have universal application. It is that simple.

"Anonymous" writes:

"Well, the essay is what it is. There really is not much to comment on. Those within Starhark's fan base or share her opinions will praise her "insightfulness". Others will be left wondering on what she is basing her "theological" concepts. As "A Handle" wrote, "I'm not sure how much of what Ms. Starhawk writes is 'theology'..." and "...none of this is 'theology' but merely sensible rules of engagement with oneself, others, and the world." At best it could be described as personal gnosis in the guise of religious dogma and language.""

The difference between what you wrote and what I wrote is a question of respect for another person's opinions.

I think it is disrespectful to use that last sentence.

From my point of view, I was being respectful of Starhawk's views -- saying that it is not "theology" but sensible rules of engagement.

Of course, when I wrote it, I had in mind that most "established religions" use all sorts of strictures, rituals and taboos to enforce rules of engagement.

Anonymous, I don't want to jump to conclusions, but if you are being pejorative, I do not share that view or condone that approach.

In other areas, I have not hesitated to label mumbo jumbo as mumbo jumbo.

Gnosis > Theology

Norrie Hoyt,

'The normal etymology derives warlock from the Old English wærloga meaning deceiver, or "oathbreaker". However, one source suggests that the word may come from the Old Norse varð-lokkur, "caller of spirits". Varðlokkur is also translated by some as 'ward-locks' or 'protections', and is an invocation chant used in spæ (scrying).

A highly speculative etymology interprets 'wærloga' as 'the man of the logs' alluding to the small pieces of wood the Anglo-Saxon and Scandinavian priests and wise men used to divine by means of the runes. This etymology seems to have been created to support neopagan beliefs about the past, inasmuch as warlock then appears to be a slang word of Christian coinage pejoratively used for those who remained Pagan and practising the art of the runes. However, its dependence upon sarcastic Christians referring to small pieces of wood as 'logs' makes it extremely unlikely, especially since the etymological roots of 'log' are believed to refer to felled trees or equally massive objects.'

- http://paganpedia.mind-n-magick.com/wiki/index.php?title=Warlock

---------------------------------

Anonymous,

Well, the essay is what it is. There really is not much to comment on. Those within Starhark's fan base or share her opinions will praise her "insightfulness". Others will be left wondering on what she is basing her "theological" concepts. As "A Handle" wrote, "I'm not sure how much of what Ms. Starhawk writes is 'theology'..." and "...none of this is 'theology' but merely sensible rules of engagement with oneself, others, and the world." At best it could be described as personal gnosis in the guise of religious dogma and language.

Yours in the Gods.

Yes, and a Witch is some one that has green skin and rides a broom.

Exuse me would you have an enemy define you?

A Warlock is not a Witch.

Your definition only holds true if Witches are devil worshippers and into dark magicks. That is what the inquisition left in its wake. Have you ever read the Malleus Maleficarum? You need to..if you are going to take their word for what we are...read their book. Find out what tortures they used..In fact here is a link:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/mm/index.htm

The Pope and all those who caused such horror had worms in their brains...and you and others will believe what they say?

Here is a bit about definitions and discrimination.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/witchcr1.htm

Talk about pointless, who cares, derailing of the article!

Terra Gazelle,

Thanks for you clarification.

This what Merriam-Webster's online dictionary says about "Warlock":

warlock
One entry found for warlock.

Main Entry: war·lock
Pronunciation: 'wor-"läk
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English warloghe, from Old English w[AE]rloga one that breaks faith, the Devil, from w[AE]r faith, troth + -loga (from lEogan to lie); akin to Old English w[AE]r true -- more at VERY, LIE
1 : a man practicing the black arts : SORCERER -- compare WITCH
2 : CONJURER

Terra,

I'm familiar with the argument some use to label all Witches as Wiccan. If we are going to use etymology to define who is and what is Wicca then the correct answer to J. Rhineheart's question is that Wicca is male and Wicce is female.

Yours in the Gods.

"My real name is Jim." - Starhawk

Okay, sorry for calling you Ms. Starhawk.

Whatever, like I said, I could have used "Jenna Bush" or "Dick Cheney" (double heaven forfend).

How 'bout Swami Starhawk?

Norrie,
Warlock is Scottish for Betrayer. It was a name that the Scottish Witch Finders called a Male Witch...or rather someone that they accused of Witchcraft. It is a slap in the face. The Inquisition was everywhere, in Scotland they killed alot of supposed Witches and tortured even more. Calling a male Witch a Warlock is a Hollywood thing...

Magi is Persian for Magician
Adept just means someone that specializes in something..Like healing, or some form of divination...etc.

As far as the Rede...every religion has a "Golden Rule". What ever your guiding principle is, it should help you to live in society with harmony.

Blessings,

Tim I never said that all Wiccans are Witches...though by right and the use of the word, they are. Wicca and Witch is the same thing. I guess one just does not use it as a religion. To me that is trying to walk with no legs. That is why there are Christian Witches, which makes me grit my teeth.

And Male Wiccans are Witches..at least the male that is my High Priest and those men in my group and those who are in the groups that have hived off my group all see themselves as Witches.

I do not take my information from just any article written by just anyone. I want scholarship. When I first started on this path all I had was The Golden Bough 1890, the philosophy of Witchcraft 1924 and Starhawk's Spiral Dance was new in 1979...I did not have web sites or shelves full of books..heck to get Starhawk's book I happened to know a girl that had a friend that owned a book shop in Oregan that had the book. I lived in Maryland. But I had a teacher...who had been taught by the tradition founder. That is how it was done...

Things may be different now for some new folks, and I know it is good that a religion changes to stay in connection to the people...But whether it is my age or the standards I learned...some changes are not good. No wonder you called Wicca new Age if those are who you know.

Blessings,

Whatever happened to Warlocks? I thought that's what male sorcerers, magicians, adepts, magi, witches, etc., were called.

Terra Gazelle,

You said your chief guide, Rede, said: "An do what you will, but harm none."

Even Martin Luther wrote: "Love God and do as you please."

What are we to make of this convergence of thought?

My real name is Jim

Terra,

If you are using Witchvox for your information, I would really like to see that article that you are using to come up with the idea that male Wiccans are called Witches... Wiccans may be Witches, but not all Witches are Wiccan. I know quite a few women who call themselves Witches and, while finding nothing wrong with either Wicca or men, would be extremely offended if you called them either.

-----------------------------

J. Rhineheart,

Witchvox is an excellent source of community posed articles on a variety of subjects and from a variety of Pagan paths, though most are Wiccan or Wicca inspired. One just have to remember when reading the articles that many are based on less then scholarly study with few, if any, cited sources used to conclude "theological" positions.

Another site is Mind-N-Magick's Paganpedia project, which is a fork of Wikipdeia, and takes a more neutral point of view in its articles regarding Pagan religions.

If you would like to ask questions of those who are actually part of the Pagan community, I recommend MysticWicks Online Pagan Community and Mind-N-Magick's Pagan Forum.

Yours in the Gods.

J. Rhineheart,

Oh and PS...Will does not mean Whim...

As to your question about free information about
Wicca...
www.witchvox.com

It's a large site with alot of info. Rememeber there are alot of Pagan religions and different trads of those religions, so not all the info will be true for everyone.

Terra wrote: "Yes there are male Wiccans...many of them, they are called Witches."

No!! They are called Wiccans. Where do you get your information?

J. Rhineheart,

Yes there are male Wiccans...many of them, they are called Witches.

Wicca is not what I would call simple...a Christian just has to be born to a Christian family...Wiccan children have to study and then choose the path they will take...it is not a given that they will be Pagan at all.

How many people call themselves Christians yet have hardly read the bible, not alone studied the history, laws, rites and traditions of the faith? No we are not simple.

From Starhawk's book The Spiral Dance":

Sexuality as a direct expression of the life force, is seen as numinous and sacred. It can be expressed freely, so long as the guideing principle is love. Marriage is a deep committment,a magickal, spiritual and psychic bond. But it is only one possibility out of many for loving, sexual expression.

-----
There are eight attributes we are called to have within us-
beauty and strength, power and compassion, honor and humility, mirth and reverence.

Unlike Reagan,(figures he would have no reflection on his actions, I remember Reagan's reign) self reflection and striving for enlightenment is what we are to do. Do not mistake the Wiccan value of pleasure with not haveing a strict sense of ethics and right and wrong. Enjoying our bodies, senses and sensibilities does not condone harming others or behaving in any dishonerable way. Seeing a beautiful scene, playing with a puppy or the joy of being loved and loving is not in anyway mean we are careless of our actions. We just are to take great joy in the gifts of the Goddess.

In case you do not know, our chief guide(Rede) is;
'An do what you will, but harm none.

Think about it.

TO C. W. CHASE,

You sound like you have a much more complete familiarity with Wiccan and especially Starhawk's dogma. Sounds very interesting. I especially like your statement "mirth and reverence in proper proportion is the start of a correct relationship between the human and the divine."

Is any of the literature available for free over the internet?

Hi Ms. Starhawk

I posted as Anon at one of your previous posts. Then I posted without using a name on a PostGlobal board and someone using the moniker "Anonymous?" -- I guess the "?" was the differentiator wrote and asked "Why don't you use a handle?" So, I figured, okay, I'll use "A Handle" just to be congenial.

But I could have used "Jenna Bush" or "Dick Cheney" (heaven forfend)-- so WaPo knows who I am but the rest is a wonderful cyberanonymity.

Now, all of the foregoing is in aid of saying I'm not the "Anonymous" who wrote "wacky theology."

In fact, it is downright disrespectful.

I'm not sure how much of what Ms. Starhawk writes is "theology" in the sense that it is Goddess-dependent, because she begins with the proposition that the Goddess as immanent - embodied - in the world. (BTW - Ms. Starhawk, this time you made it very clear what "immanent" means in context).

So, I think if you look at it objectively (or even emotionally) what she is expressing is a great deal of kindness towards oneself, towards others, and a great deal of humility in enjoying what is in us and around us.

Heck, if I were looking for a "theology" that made sense (I'm not) this would be a good place to start.

Of course, in my view, none of this is "theology" but merely sensible rules of engagement with oneself, others, and the world.

Ms. Starhawk makes a lot more sense than the yahoos who put on colorful dresses and robes and pontificate about voices they hear and how books written by men are somehow the immutable word of God.

Also, she does have a sense of humor - which may be the best "theology" of all.

Brava!

"All acts of love and pleasure are my rituals" is a huge part of what drew me to Wicca. Sure, we could have the lawyers come in and add the very fast speech at the end of the commercial: Pleasure must be mutual; some acts of pleasure may lead to eventual pain; engage at your own risk and with sufficient foreknowledge; offer illegal in red states and various fundie enclaves. But the language is meant to be poetic and the truth that it encapsulates is sorely missing from our culture, where sex is evil but the "pursuit" of pleasure, as long as someone can sell you something to "induce" that pleasure never ends.

Quote: "This attitude, according to Will, leaves conservatives who idolize Reagan with a lack of hard truths without which there is no introspection, no tough love, no doubt. It also sounds like you, if pleasure is the goal of a Wiccan."

===

This just shows the limitations of the blog format. In her Master's Thesis and a seminal text of political religion, "Dreaming the Dark", she discusses the complexities of drawing upon the erotic as a creative fuel for life and just ethics, rather than a furtive guilt complex and fountain of shame. Simple? Far from it. Pleasure is the goal for a Hedonist, not a Wiccan. For Starhawk, mirth and reverence in proper proportion is the start of a correct relationship between the human and the divine. This leads to her moral absolute--Humans have enormous creative and destructive potential. Focusing on mutual respect for each of our creative powers and innate dignity, erotic and otherwise, must the basis for ethical interaction between people, and thus for groups, communities, nations, and the world.

I've never gotten to know a Wiccan. You sound very down-to-earth. I admire that.

Are there any Wiccan men? Or is that mutually exclusive?

You say "pleasure, in our view, is a good thing". You remind me of an article on Ronald Reagan by George Will I read recently in the Wash. Post, where Will quoted from a biography of Reagan by John Patrick Diggins, which said Reagan's above-it-all attitude was founded on a "political romantic(ism)" stemming from his mother's 19th century Unitarianism:

QUOTE FROM GEORGE WILL'S COLUMN (hope this isn't illegal)
" "Emerson was right," Reagan said several times of the man who wrote, "No law can be sacred to me but that of my nature." Hence Reagan's unique, and perhaps oxymoronic, doctrine -- conservatism without anxieties. Reagan's preternatural serenity derived from his conception of the supernatural.

Diggins says Reagan imbibed his mother's form of Christianity, a strand of 19th-century Unitarianism from which Reagan took a foundational belief that he expressed in a 1951 letter: "God couldn't create evil so the desires he planted in us are good." This logic -- God is good, therefore so are God-given desires -- leads to the Emersonian faith that we please God by pleasing ourselves. Therefore there is no need for the people to discipline their desires. So, no leader needs to suggest that the public has shortcomings and should engage in critical self-examination."

This attitude, according to Will, leaves conservatives who idolize Reagan with a lack of hard truths without which there is no introspection, no tough love, no doubt. It also sounds like you, if pleasure is the goal of a Wiccan.

Your view is very simplistic. Our society is very complex. Perhaps this is another example of how politics and religion don't mix.

For Gods and Country
The Army Chaplain Who Wanted to Switch to Wicca? Transfer Denied.

By Alan Cooperman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, February 19, 2007; Page C01

--You do realize you call yourself "Starhawk" don't you? What is your real name?----

Coming from someone who calls themself 'anonymous'!

Shut up and go away.

Correct, no sex, no life on going.

If the sex act was painful, for men, like getting a shot at the doctor for example, human life would end. That's why they call it "the tender trap" something about the rich using condoms and getting richer, while the poor, not being able to afford condoms, get more children.

I'm beginning to wonder if the "house of the rising sun" isn't some kind of church and therefore eligable for tax relief. Not having received it yet we can call it "back" tax relief when it comes.

I've been waiting for this post...it's well articulated, and what I expected. I'm very happy to see that a panelist finally wrote that sex and erotic love are sacred no matter what sexual persuasion the lovers are, as well as connecting the erotic love that humans feel, to the passion of being alive and connected to nature and the world.

I must say though, that when I say the Charge of the Goddess, I don't say "All acts of love and pleasure are my rituals". I say "All acts of love are my rituals" only because of what Starhawk pointed out in paragraph 5, that sexuality (and other forms of pleasure) can be misused. In the military, soldiers are often taught to associate the pain of death with sexual pleasure, and military chants often mingle violent sex, mysogyny, and rape with the feeling of being killed.

I think, like Kathy McCarthy pointed out, that some types of "instant gratification", and "power over" can be perceived as pleasurable by some people, when they are not pleasurable or healthy for all. I think that not all pleasure is loving, but all love is and feels pleasurable to all creation that is involved.

You do realize you call yourself "Starhawk" don't you? What is your real name?

At last..a religious voice of some worth! Well done Starhawk.

---Total wacky theology.----

WHY?? It was around long before the fetid scurge of Christianity and Islam and does not condemn people or call for death and war.

And there is as much proof of 'Gods and Goddesses' as their is for 'God'/'Allah'...It's no more 'wacky' than anything else.

It's still an organised religion so I am not a fan...but if Wiccan was the worlds' biggest religion THE WORLD WOULD BE A BETTER PLACE!!

Nice lady. Total wacky theology.

I have deep roots of respect and admiration for Starhawk's work - but haven't had her "show up" in my world for many years. I just had to chuckle as I sit here working on structuring a youth program on sexuality and spirituality - to have Starhawks' words come in through my Google alert set to Human Sexuality.
I do love these moments.

Here I am working from within a church - to my surprise - working specifically on issues of sexuality and spirituality.
What's fascinating to me is that as I look for people able to articulate the phenomena of sex as holy, sex as union, sex as profoundly spiritual - I find David Deida speaking from a more Buddhist perspective and then I find folks I'll describe as Evangelical (Tim Gardner. Rob Eager). I read with caution and a critical eye - and must say, again to my great surprise, there is an essence of beauty in what is described. Sex as holy union is really the point. Offering great care, generosity of spirit and respect to one's partner is necessary for experiencing sexual relationships as deeply and profoundly holy and unifying with the sacred.
I'll say this: Sex for pleasure is certainly a good thing (especially when held up in contrast to a plague of anhedonia (inability to experience pleasure) I sense permeating so many harddriving, overworked, plugged in friends. And believing as I do that one way to connect with what is holy is through the body, we certainly need to grow comfortable with pleasure. Perhaps a distinction needs to be made between pleasure that nurtures and sustains and pleasure that simply passes (good food/fast food type of thing). The pleasure that nurtures and sustains can certainly lead to union with all that is holy. And Eros at its best brings us there. But shallow pleasure like fast food seems to lead us away from all that is sacred.
I'd be very interested in hearing from others - especially as I try to make these ideas work within the christian story (not as The Only Story but as a story that works for me) about this idea of sex as holy union - and Eros as Holy Spirit...or would the Erotic/Life force be symbolized by Jesus, God in the flesh?