To Be A True Friend of the Jewish People

as youve been name calling and degenerating into very unmannerly behavior on other blogs here- i am disinclined to aloow myself to be disrespected.

Well, talking at people and using them as things in a script may make people feel they are making the world a better place. But they are not.

no one said such a sweeping gneralization

as i said, i am aware of why jewish people support israel.

but i find those reasons separatist and elitist and distasteful.

what i said is i cant find anyone who will give a REASONABLE account, including you.

i didnt address your list?

i just REPOSTED ITS POINTS!

forget it dave, you dont have a reason, call insulting names on the main blog

youre only defense is to be so offensive that you ve chased all the reasonable people out of the main blog

but it still isnt a substitute for reason
for presenting a viewpoint that others can understand

youre so polarized that you mistake any dissent as some kind of nonsense

but provide no ideas to counter

if you had valid reasons youd post them

not the presidents
not the evangelicals
not the business expertise of israelis

you dont even know the subject very well and think over emotional and angry reactions should be respected

so no dave- you couldnt be further from understanding me as you make no attempt
and as always- degenerate into name calling which is completely undeserved (as calling me ignorant on the main blog to very friendly and gentle comments and asking)

im not asking you anymore dave because it is clear you dont know why you believe what you do

Victoria,

In addition to the reasons you do not want to address, I reposted an earlier list of reasons which you have not addressed. And Carter raised aid to Israel when he was president and had access to great information about the situation. Now he does not.

I have no idea which sentences with we have offended you.

And telling me my reasons are not reasons is downright personal.

If I understand you, none of the people you know in the Anti Israel movement in either LA or NYC can figure out why Jews support Israel. So they conclude most Jews are not rational about the subject. And that is consistent with what Carter is saying. There is no way to deal with folks like that. You have to wait until wiser people emerge in positions of leadership.

you read my mind dave- i just posted something on WIB on the main blog.

pretty similar to me dave.

united in a desire to give voice to the voiceless.

personal observations arent necessary , and actually extraneous in a negative way.

i wish youd stop that.

as ive asked o so many times for your own personal reasons- not someone elses- ive been so focused and clear on that.

that is what ive asked for, but you keep sayig you did, but i cant find it.

as ive said- a list of why others do it- isnt your personal reasons.

no dave- i just started with the first one- whic is the evangelists- and asked why you follow what evangelicals say.

you never answered that either.
if youd have answered we could go down it and discuss reasonably.
so far all i have is-

evangelicals supprt israel
you trust the judgement of the presidents (except carter)
great military prowess
financial prowess (on the part of israel)

and then you kept saying "we"
who is we?

i ws asking dave-singular. are you saying we as a jewish groupthink?

anyway- i asked you what your reasoning process is that led you to support israel.

i still havent seen it but maybe you dont have one- which is fine

Victoria,

At least you seem to be learning brevity. Repetitious and pointless but brief.

I have given you several sets of reasons. None of them fits your definition.

I reposted one list. You ignored it the second time just as you had the first.

I posted one list and you only dealt with the reason I gave for why other people support Israel. You pretend the others do not exist even though you have referred to the only one you recognize as the first.

I am sure organizations like Women in Black are filled with noble people. However I wonder how many of them and folk in similarly minded organizations reason as you do.

still waiting for WHY dave supports israel.

go ahead, ive been waiting- im not asking why dershawitz does - his prejudice is rampant-

im asking why you , dave, feel the way you do.

thats not so difficult.

you havent answered, youve said yuou trust your leaders, and you follow the evangelicals.

if you have a personal rationale post it-

you havent yet because you dont have a personal reason that will stand up for reasonable people

youve made enough slurs and racist remarks about palestinians that im thinking your only personal reason is based on bias, with no ethics to back it

Victoria,

As you have pointed out and shown unmistakably here, when people give you well thought out answers which do not fit your script, you do not see them as answers. Your expectation is unreasonable. If you want a counterpart to what Carter and you say, read Dershowitz's Case For Israel. Do not expect me to be what you think I am.

"surety isnt exactly a damning quality in a debate"

Surety about what I have written when you understand it poorly makes discussion impossible as you keep showing. And many others whose views are like yours also use your methods and think they are spreading peace thereby.

dave, repeating that something is complex- doesnt substitute for a discussion or exchange.

you support israel.
i am anti-zionist.

is that a fair assessment?

while ive provided pages and page of WHY my conscience dictates my position, you havent yet
given any answer as to WHY your conscience leads you to support israel.

i have honestly asked, eager to understand,

even the panelist here- couldnt give a personal reason for her fence straddling on the issue.

while ive read every one of her stories more than once, i couldnt find any reason that she supports israel (and she does) except that she dreamed of planting trees there when she was a child.

her answer?

i like cookies.

maybe that was cute when she was a kid, but to me its just more nonsense.

if you have a rason why- you would state it clearly.

after over a month, you havent found your voice.
i can only surmise your voice falters in its own stridency when your conscience holds it up to light, and any reasons you may have posted, you deleted when you recognized how theyd be interpreted.

these are childish and energy draining runarounds, and ive given you the respect that you can give an honest and clear answer as to your personal reasons why you support israal.

as it hasnt happened, i have to assume you dont have any reasons why that would stand up to public scrutiny, but only resonate somewhere deep in your psyche for you alone.

surety isnt exactly a damning quality in a debate
its just the surety f my conscience and my comfortability with my own heart on this issue

as i know many palestinians, and many jewish people- i dont really know any zionists-

i thought youd have an answer

Victoria,

"actually dave- yes you did.

that is exactly what you said."

I note that you do not have a quote which shows you are right. That is the methodology folks who oppose Israel use: repetition, surety, and stridency. It works. You can push all kinds of things that way.

"you still deny the palestinian people even have a right to be."

And you have no quote for that assertion.

"you continue to deny that there are issues that need to be dealt with"

Wrong again. There are many complex issues. I have discussed them and tried to show how complex they are.

This is not a conversation. This is someone with just a first name talking at a fictitious person she identifies with me. The fictitious person says things I have never said and holds views which contradict my own in some cases and are not mine in other cases. I find it interesting. No matter how many times I encounter things like this my curiosity about how they have come to be never changes.

actually dave- yes you did.

that is exactly what you said.

i asked about 20 times what you dave marshak personally use as your own personal opinion and reasoning process to support israel.

that is exactly your answer, but i asked for specific reasons - (which includes the why)

weve been through this-

it is a statement without the why and ive asked you why you personally reason your support-

you give me someone elses reason.

so how does this apply to dave marshak?

while you keep saying "we" the question was to your personal "I"

and you know that

while you pretend to talk about peace- you still deny the palestinian people even have a right to be.

that is where the conversation should start dave.

while you continue to deny that there are issues that need to be dealt with, and blindly rubberstamp any action of israel- your attitude in particular is what is the greatest deterant to any peaceful dialogue.

it starts with recognizing the rights of palestinians to live in peace and unmolested.

which you have yet to do.

Victoria,

It is a reason we support Israel. It is a true statement. I did not say it was a reason for what I say and do. You added that and are riding it like a hobby horse. I gave other reasons with that and before it yet somehow those do not interest you. I guess you think your relentless disagreement with what I have not said is a way to peace. I disagree.

well its easy-

heres what you said-
"Christians especially evangelical Protestants think Jews should be back in Israel."

since youre not an evangelical- why should this be a reason for you?

It is clear that you think I am saying what I am not saying. Unless you are playing a game.

I have been over this again and again and you keep insisting I am saying what I am not saying. Evidently you feel you are showing your superior thought processes. And I can not find a way to appreciate why you are sure of that.

well, you still havent answered- we havent gotten past the first reason as youve never stated why you consider the evangelicals worth following-

more of the same - why cant you ever answer a question directly?

you slip and slide all over the place

i dont know why you think evngelicals should be followed dave as you havent said

you dont make sense

Victoria,

Okay. You can keep on saying what I said while I disagree with you. And people like you can do that en masse to masses of people. What does it accomplish? It seems to me it builds the anger that leads to violence.

I have provided a collection of reasons. The most powerful is my confidence that every president since Truman has not been wrong about Israel and that while in office they have far better information than anyone else has. That is because they head a government filled with brilliant people analyzing things.

The reason you cite is the single greatest reason we support Israel. It is one among several I gave. Yet you ignore the rest. And you can't recall all the other times I have answered your question with reasons. And your research skills are such that you can't find them.

another clintonian cop out?

defining the word reason?

yes dave- why does your opinion rest on what evangelicals think?

im not having problems dave

you just dont have an answer

when someone asks me a question i answer - or if i cant i say so honestly-

you squirm around like clinton defining the meaning of the word 'it'

why as a jewish person would your reasons for supporting israel rest upon the evangelicals views?

that makes no sense

do you listen to the evangelicals views and follow them on other issues?

or just israel?

if you follow them on other issues youre an evangelical then

if its only israel its just jumping on a bandwagon and is not a real reason at all

Victoria,

We are having continual problems with the simplest of words and ideas. The word reason is an extraordinary source of difficulty. So it is easy to see why you can not understand people who disagree with you about these very complex issues.

Here you say reasons I give for why we support Israel must be my reasons. Yet you also ask for the reasons we support Israel. And the one you now dislike is the strongest.

Why don't you discuss the rest of the reasons I have given? And why in the world do you blame AIPAC for what Christians think?

well, my point is-

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

well, as for number 1 reason-

because the evangelicals want to force gods hand and push the apocalypse up so that jesus(ata) can come again-

isnt this a little bit exclusivist?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

your reason is that christian evangelicals believe that the jews should be back in israel-

so- why should that be YOUR reason?

youre not evangelical

why would your reasons be dependent on what evangelicals think?

I don't see your point. You seem to hold AIPAC responsible for what Christians like Dick Cheney want. In my view, they want what want for their own reasons and not because they are tools of AIPAC and Jewish Neocons.

well, as for number 1 reason-

because the evangelicals want to force gods hand and push the apocalypse up so that jesus(ata) can come again-

isnt this a little bit exclusivist?

I have given you reasons why we support Israel. You ignore them. A google search will give you many reasons. So why do you keep saying you have not gotten any answers and there are no answers? It seems to me that as with many of these discussions, you see no reasons because of the way you are defining what is a reason and what is not. What about the specific reasons I have given fails your test for what a reason is?

Some of the reasons I have given are:

Christians especially evangelical Protestants think Jews should be back in Israel.

We look at Israel with its robust democracy and enterprising spirit and see people who are doing the kinds of things we like people to do. So we help them out.

The money spent for Israel balances the money others spend against Israel. It is based on the fact that a war has been going on against Israel for almost 60 years; sometimes it is very hot and sometimes it is cold but it has never stopped.

Israel is very creative in its business zone and we like nations that are good at business, enterprise, creating new technologies, running things well, and solving issues among themselves peacefully using the tools of Democracy.

We think a peaceful Middle East, where the nations are more like what I said about Israel in the prior paragraph, is good for us and good for humanity. And we think our views about how to achieve that make sense.

i guess the point is, no one has presentd a case as to why we should be the friend of jews in israel in the first place-

its not a given-

every other country and people has to prove some sort of worthiness and its never asked of israel- or is it ever offered

thats what ive been asking you dave and after all this time you havent considered it

now ive offered countless posts of a specific and focused nature- no response to that-

ive been trying to find someone who can give a reason why israel should be supported, as their human rights record is atrocious-

and no one addresses this- no one

the only answer seems to be - dont ask the question- you are bad for asking this question

it doesnt make the question go away- it just makes me in particular think that if jewish people themselves cant come up with a good reason to support israel, why shoud i?

ive been open to any dialogue, but no one has any.
direct questions are continually deflected into long deconstruction of the question itslef, as if that matters.

a question is a question and for this question ive found no one willing to answer it directly

the fault does not lie with the query

There is a lot of self delusion around. People with no sense of reason think they can teach it. People who hate, thinking they are all about love. People making absurdly general and vague statements thinking something useful will come from them. We have crowds of people getting angry with each other over these things who never can be careful and specific enough to resolve even a few small issues.

clarity- continuity of thought- connectedness and coming back round to an original point-
focusing on that point and examining it from different sides and views-

repsect for the other debater and never sinking into personal observations as a substitute for staying on topic-

dave its been a month and a half- while ive waited for you to formulate some sort of reasoning process for why you believe what you do- ive had to construct my own in the absence of input from you-

i really have asked repeatedly-

you dont really have much take on people like me-
theres no accusation in any statements i make- thats also in your head-

any question you ask i answer, and research to make sure the sources are acceptable and neutral-

i put alot of effort into it dave but you just it appears- come in and repost what i write- and then give quick dismissals-

ive put time into talking with you because i assumed you care about the issue but you never get to the issue-

this sint how people engage- you make a point- with substantiation- i make a counterpoint with substantiation-

to date you have not researched or provided sources for one post and there have been i bet more than a hundred by now at least-

its about caring and effort i guess

"guess its an emotional indoctrination garnered at your mothers knee-"

That seems to be the way people who view things as you do think about people who disagree with them. And they I guess see themselves as noble contrasts to that?

"no reasoning process"

You clearly have special criteria for what is such. What are they?

well yes dave- i d think that youve come here and have an opinion but no reasoning process to back it up-

no you havent- anyone can look and see you havent offered your reasoning process-

i can only guess its an emotional indoctrination garnered at your mothers knee-

also your misleading post that you already gave a reason falls flat on its face-

if you did and i missed it- simply repost it-

I did that and listed reasons.

Why would I be afraid to say what I thnk here?

Do you really think I have never thought about the subject and have no reasons for what I think is right?

It is odd you could read what I have posted here and think that. How many Americans do you view that way? Is that way of thinking common among the people you know who are sure we should cut off aid to Israel? It would explain a lot about the way they talk and behave.

how about this dave-

just sit for a minute, think about why you support israel -

then type it onto the blog-

i dont expect proof dave as its a personal opinion-

simply- why do you hold that opinion?
what led you, dave, to the decision to support israel?

its an opinion so its not open to criticism

youve just never given one

why is a very simple question

youve never stated your own personal reason-

i am very curious

maybe you hve a perspective that will enable me to see it from another view

what could possibly be wrong with that?

what thought processes (or emotional ones) have led you to your personal conclusion?

simple focused just write it out!

i think you are afraid to state out loud maybe or maybe it seems you have no real resons and its becoming apparent
maybe you never thought about it
i dont know

think about it now

and then simply write - is this plain- simple enough?

"what is astonishing to me is that after a month of asking you-
and you having staed absolutely that you support israel-

you have never given a personal reasoning for believing that-"

I have no idea why you keep saying that and how you can miss all of the things I have said.

"as we have a running discussion on 5 different blogs- all on the same issue-"

We are not discussing anything. You would have to read what I have written not write F across the top and throw it away.

You are simply saying the same things over and over again. That is what people like Carter and self named peace advocates, who are far from peaceful people, do.

What of the above do you expect me to prove and what would you view as proof?

no dave- youre making assumptions again (kind of loopy ones)

star wars isnt my world paradigm

it really has nothing to do with a moral or immoral value judgement-

what is astonishing to me is that after a month of asking you-
and you having staed absolutely that you support israel-

you have never given a personal reasoning for believing that-

you say you dont have enough information to make a decision- but that means youvemade a decision with litle or no information

i find it incredible that you have a postion-but have no idea why you hold it.

as we have a running discussion on 5 different blogs- all on the same issue-

after one month= you still havent managed toome up with even a single reason-

that is the fascinating thing to me-

just coming back to see your new avoidance tactics-

its extraordinary

and i know your response here will be just as slippery and unidentifiable-

most likely youll just throw my words back at me and dismiss them without proof

very interesting

dont tell me what i think dave, and in a similar fashion- i will not disrespect you in that way.

so what items in particular in our aid package to israel would not be there had you a say in it?

since you completely neglected to address any item in the long copy i made- possibly you could pick something out of there-

I have made a decision that the US and Israel are not Evil Empires ruled by the Dark Side of the Force. Some disagree. I view that as a practical analysis of very complex systems. I do not view it as a moral judgment.

You see funding as a moral issue. That goes with the Evil Empire notion. So I do not see it as a consuming moral issue.

I agree with some things our government does and strongly disagree with others. There may be items in our aid package for Israel that would not be there had I a say in it. There may be things which I would like funded which are not funded.

well dave- the fact is that you already have made the judgement-

you openly have supported america financing israel-

i never asked you for facts- only your own personal reasons for why you support funding.

why do we have to agree for you to have a reasoning process to back up your belief that israel should be financed by the usa?

we dont.

you dont need to find some level of mutual agreement-

you didnt ask me (you didnt know me) when you decided to support israeli funding by the usa.

why would my agreement be contingent on your personal reasoning process?

it doesnt.

you have a stated opinion.

you support funding.

surely there is a reason you have that opinion.

what is the reason?

"how do you personally justify morally the immense support given to israel?"

There is a difference in the way we think about things.

From my point of view, careful analysis should come before judgment not afterwards to justify it. Hence I am trying to arrive at enough things we can agree are true to make a moral judgment possible. You seem to feel that we have an obligation to make moral judgments whether we can agree about the facts or not.

The problem with that is that since the moral judgments are based on facts we can not agree on, we can't work through them. So we have anger because people are not behaving morally and the surety that comes when we confront error or evil.

"you are claiming you hvent seen figures-"

Here the issue is numbers and their meaning. Numbers that roll things five miles up do not make facts that we can reason about. Nor is there some magical tone of voice or number of repetitions that will help with that. People who view such things as educating others do not understand how the learning process works.

here dave- you know i posted this elsewhere- you saw t and dint comment- and now you are claiming you hvent seen figures-

A) The nature of US foreign aid to Israel

1. Constitutes 30% of the total US foreign aid budget, which renders Israel to be the largest recipient of US aid in the world
2. Started in 1948 and gradually increased over the years
3. Promotes American interests in the Middle East
4. Proposed by Israel in 1998 to be reduced in an effort to establish an economically independent country

B) The controversy for US foreign aid to Israel

1. Granted in disproportion to Israel's size and needs
2. Promotes the illegal occupation of Palestinian land in order to establish settlements for Jewish immigrants
3. Transforms Palestine into a military test ground
4. Violates US Law and abuses human rights
5. Inflicts great economic losses upon the American people

Sources

A) The nature of US foreign aid to Israel

A1. Constitutes 30% of the total US foreign aid budget, which renders Israel to be the largest recipient of US aid in the world

* Since 1987, the US congress has annually been approving a foreign aid bill totaling an average of $3 billion of American taxpayers' money to Israel, $1.2 billion in economical aid, and $1.8 billion in military aid.
* After the gulf war in 1991, the US has additionally been offering Israel $2 billion annually in federal loan guarantees, which brings the total US foreign aid to Israel to about $5 billion, or $13.7 million per day.
* Other forms of aid to Israel are a result of "consequential" aid, such as the approximate $1.5 billion in total tax-deductible private donations from numerous Jewish charities and individual donors. "Consequential" aid to Israel adds up to an approximate $8 billion in total US foreign aid to Israel.
* All in all, this is the largest amount of foreign aid given to a country, and constitutes over 30% of the total amount of US foreign aid budget.

A2. Started in 1948 and gradually increased over the years

* Soon after the Truman decision in 1948 to recognize Israel as a Jewish State, the US Congress approved an aid package in the form of a $135 million Export-Import Bank loan in order to take in holocaust survivors and provide them with homes.
* Until 1973, aid was mainly made up of military, economic and export-import bank loans, although annual economic grants ranging between $0.1 and $74 million were also offered between the years 1951 and 1962.
* After the 1973 war, the US aid to Israel constituted largely of military and economic grants to help strengthen the Israeli defense forces. This included $12-80 million, which was annually granted towards the establishment of Jewish settlements.
* This TABLE shows the history of US financial assistance to Israel, as documented by the Jewish Virtual Library. Notice the pattern of increased assistance over the years for economic, military and Jewish immigrant grants, especially after 1973. This pattern reflects the US interests (section A3) in empowering Israel as the only democratic, close ally in the region, and not for the pure intent to assist a developing country.

A3. Promotes American interests in the Middle East

* The US funding to Israel acts as the backbone for the strategic partnership between both countries. By advancing Israel's technological and military powers, the US is able to share intelligence information regarding Arab militant groups, like Hizbullah, as well as information regarding the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction in countries such as Iran, Iraq and Syria.
* Three quarters of the military aid to Israel goes for importing US-made military equipment such as F-16 and Apache attack helicopters. This creates a job market for US citizens and transforms Palestine into a test ground for US made weaponry, used daily against Palestinians.
* Israel has cooperated with the US arms industry to develop more effective military equipment at affordable costs to the US. About one quarter of the military aid to Israel is contributed towards military research and development, where several innovative jet fighters, missiles and navigating and targeting devices have been manufactured and sold back to the US. Examples are the ITALD, Litening, Popeye and the UAV.

A4. Proposed by Israel in 1998 to be reduced in an effort to establish an economically independent country

* In 1998, according to an agreement with the Clinton Administration and Congress, Israel voluntarily requested to decrease its financial dependence on US economic aid by phasing it out over a period of 10 years.
* The $1.2 billion in economic aid will be reduced by $120 million each year until it is down to zero in the year 2008. This will help Israel to become an economically independent country.
* However, 50% of the savings (i.e. $60 million) each year will be added to an emergency military aid fund to Israel. This demonstrates the US's persistence and commitment to help Israel gain control of the region.

B) The controversy for US foreign aid to Israel

B1. Granted in disproportion to Israel's size and needs

* Israel is an economically, technologically, and militarily advanced country, with a per capita rate of $14,000, which is higher that that of all neighboring Arab countries, including the oil-rich Saudi Arabia. It is ranked as the world's sixteenth wealthiest country, yet the US aid to Israel constitutes 30% of the total US foreign aid budget.
* Israeli population is 5.8 million, which only constitutes one thousandth of the world's total population. Between the years 1949 and 1998, the US has provided a total of $84 billion in aid to Israel, which exceeds that given to all countries of sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, and the Caribbean combined, with a total population of about 1.054 billion people.

B2. Promotes the illegal occupation of Palestinian land in order to establish settlements for Jewish immigrants

* A portion of US foreign aid to Israel, which has increased in the past decade to $80 million annually, goes into building settlements for Jewish immigrants. This occurs by the illegal confiscation of Palestinian land and home demolition to allow for space. Jewish settlements surround every single Palestinian city in the West Bank, and their rapid construction since 1973 has prevented the creation of a feasible Palestinian State.
* Jewish settlements are built on confiscated Palestinian land to accommodate Jewish immigrants from all over the world, based on the Israeli Law of Return. These immigrants are guaranteed the right to Israeli citizenship, free Hebrew learning, and immediate employment. On the other hand, Palestinian refugees who were forced to flee their homes in 1948 and 1967 are forbidden from returning to their towns of origin.

B3. Transforms Palestine into a military test ground

* Seventy five percent of US military aid to Israel goes into purchasing US-made military equipment, such as tanks, machine guns, bullets, helicopter gunships, and more. The US depends on Israel to test new military technologies in war conditions. For example, uranium-depleted ammunition has been fired at civilians in Palestine.

B4. Violates US Law and abuses human rights

* The Foreign Assistance Act (FAA) of the United States, which provides guidelines for the eligibility of certain countries to purchase US-made weapons and military equipment, states in section 116 that "No assistance may be provided under this part to the government of any country which engages in a consistent pattern of gross violations of internationally recognized human rights." However, Israeli army engages daily in degrading and inhumane treatments towards Palestinians, such as prolonged detention without charges, strip searches at checkpoints, beatings, torture, and home demolitions. According to Amnesty International, Israel is the only country that legalizes torture.
* Similarly, section 4 of the Arms Export control Act prevents the US government from selling defense articles to countries that abuse their use for non-self-defense purposes. In 2001, the US State Department described the actions of Israeli army against Palestinians as an "excessive use of force," referring to the use of live ammunition when soldiers were not in a pending danger. This clearly shows that the US does not agree with the way these weapons are being used against Palestinians, yet the US military aid to Israel continues consistently as agreed between both countries.

B5. Inflicts great economic losses upon the American people

* Besides the roughly $8 billion in annual taxpayer money to Israel, there are hard to track forms of aid which have been causing great economic losses to the American people. According to the Central Bank of Israel, in the 1980's the US bailed out the Israeli banking system at a cost of $10-12 billion in military and economic aids. Congressional researchers disclose that this money was never paid back, and has been forgiven by the American government.
* The US's trade deficit with Israel is about $5-5.5 billion. This is due to trade imbalance between both countries. While the US pays real money for imports from Israel, Israel does not pay real money for its imports from the US. This costs the American people an equivalence of a quarter million jobs.
* In a similar manner, there are great losses to American military institutions. For every dollar of military equipment the US gives Israel, the US buys 60 cents worth of Israeli equipment. Only the difference here is that the US pays with real money, but Israel does not.
* The Oil Supplies Guarantee affirms that if Israel's oil supply is to be cut off for any political or economic reason, the US guarantees to provide Israel with oil regardless of the US oil supply levels. This guarantee carries with it a potential price tag of $20-30 million a day.

this is one of many things ive posted
but you already know that-

so with this infirmation available to you right here and undeniable-

what are your personal reasons for continuing to fund israel?

i didnt mention nazis dave- i didnt mention aipac, why do you?

the question remains- why do you personally support funding israel?

you as a moral human- what isyour reason?

and this is relevant to the question how dave?
the question remains - how do you personally justify morally the immense support given to israel?

you support it- ok- why?

Israel is an ally of the United States in a part of the world where we have many enemies and few friends. And Israel does many good things. They are not Nazi Germany.

What happened in the past is done. It is what we do now that matters. And treating AIPAC as if they are a Fifth Column for Israel and Israel as if it is Nazi Germany is wildly unhelpful on many different levels.

dave what are you talking about?

i asked you in particular as a moral human how you reason that after 59 years israel should continue to receive money-

ive given you countless links and broken down easily interperted government figure many times-

its a simple question- im not asking aipac-

you believe israle deserves financial support from the usa.

why do you believe that?

I do not view it as charity.

I have no idea what all of the line items are. I don't think anyone else does.

We are doing what we do because we are not clever enough to figure something out that will work better.

It seems to me a tad simplistic to believe we can figure out what makes sense when people who are paid to do so can't get it right. The issue is how wrong are they getting it and why are they getting it wrong. Blaming it on AIPAC simply makes the problem worse because it shows that the views of Jews which led to the Shoah are still popular.

no dave- ive asked specifically what is YOUR opinion on why america should keep giving billions in charity to israel-

i already know why the usa soes it-

im asking - your personal reason -

let me know when the question is framed to perfection that you feel ready to reply-

Jimmy Carter supported Israel when he was president. I don't hear him saying that was a total mistake. He seems very much on the side of the Palestinians to me. How do you view what happened when JFK, Jimmy Carter, and Bill Clinton were presidents? Was their policy in the Middle East stupid and evil?

I guess you view that as answering with a question but I am trying to figure out the parameters you have set for this question which you keep asking:

"what is the reason the usa financially supports israel?"

It is certainly not out of deference to me. No one except you has asked me to look into it.

its okay dave- the weight of the worlds moral issues arent on your shoulders-

ive respected your opinion in the past which is why i ask it-

now peace dave

but thats not the question dave-

what is the reason the usa financially supports israel?

why should we continue?

ok no vagueness-

why does israel deserve so much money?

israel in particular?

your particular reason?

what makes them so deserving?

how do you personally dave justify the aid we give to israel?

specific enough?

please, no more misleading answering questions with questions-

just your considered response-

why give israel aid?

"whay give israel so much money for 59 years?"

That is vague.

You have a definition of aggression I do not agree with. Your view of doing the right thing differs from mine.

The Palestinians could get organized. They could stop killing each other, foreigners and Israelis. They could put someone in charge rather than have many different leaders working more or less independently.

ive given you the specifics countless times dave- and youve noted and responded to them

whay give israel so much money for 59 years?

every single other country gets cut off at 10 years from us aid-

youve seen manymany figueres by me on other panelists

we both know this weve been having this discussion for as long as this questions been posted

why so much money for so long?

israeli aggressions up

palestinians aggressions down

doesnt seem to be helping the palestinians to try and do the right thing when we keep rewarding the israelis giving them money...for killing more palestinians?

whats the reasoning?

"i gave some easily interperted statistics from a wrold wide valid source"

Which in particular are you referring to?

"we dont need to define pacifism"

It is used to refer to those who support violence against folk they view as oppressors.

"your unquestioning support of israel is frightening"

I question everything. I am simply skeptical about some of what is bandied about as truth.

"can you criticize israel without being accused of anti-semitism?"

Yes. And you can do so when you are anti-semitic. And people can make unfair statements about Jews because they absorb them like air and hang out where they are viewed as truth. And some will view that as anti-semitic just as some view Jews as genocidal.

"why do we give israel so much money?"

Politics. I would have to look at specifics to see what I think about them.

who blamed israel?

i was clarifying a situation you misunderstood

back to the point dave

you dont have a problem or comment about the figures provided?

theyre new- their from the bbc-

what other possible distraction could be provided?

i find it unsettling that although the aggression is decreasing from the palestinina side it seems to have no berng on how theyre being treated-

dave- if the situation were reversed and there were muslims doing this for 60 years i would be just as vociferous-

its not a religious question-

weve been a 3oo billion dollar friend to israel for 59 years-

id ask when do we start being friends to the palestinians?

no one mentioned blame dave-

if jewish people were being imprisoned illegally in america its likely id be more not less vocal because i know alot more jewish peope than palestinians

suffering is suffering- oppression is wrong

i gave some easily interperted statistics from a wrold wide valid source

we dont need to define pacifism

your unquestioning support of israel is frightening

but its not unique- hence the question

can you criticize israel without being accused of anti-semitism?

if the phenomenon erent so evident it wouldnt be a question would it?

how about funding then?
why do we give israel so much money?
thats a straight question

Surely you do not blame that on Jews or Israel?

"many doctors many professors-
tax-paying american citizens contributing to the usa"

Could you point to some articles about this? Surely the Democratic Party does not go along with it?

no dave there arent- this is a unique legal quandry-

these are not people captured in battle-

these are AMERCIAN CITIZENS-

in american prisons dave- for 5 years now

without being charged- without access to lawyers-

being held under "secret evidence"

last i heard dave, american citizens had the right to a speedy and expeditious trial and also the right to face their accusers, the right to legal counsel-

so your answer to this is that there are many people awaiting decisions on charges to be filed?

who dave?
where?

again these are AMERICAN CITIZENS
taken from their homes and jobs

not soldiers- not terrorists- not captured in battle- not part of an army- many doctors many professors-
tax-paying american citizens contributing to the usa

Israel must get along with whoever is in power in the United States. Jews did not elect Bush. It takes no Israel lobby to convince the folks who voted for Bush that what our government does is okay. There are 300 million people in the United States. 3000 is a thousandth of a percent.

"of course all the imprisoned are arabic males 16-40"

There are many people in prison awaiting a decision on what charges are to be filed. The police can arrest and hold. They can not file charges. People captured in battle, who are not part of an army whose government can be negotiated with, are in limbo. Governments used to hang such people after a summary judgment. Now we are figuring out what to do as we go. Had Gore or Kerry won, things would be different.

sorry dave- thats over 3000 in america-
what is unreasonable about this?

a portion of the population imprisoned without any charge whatsoever-

not able to face their accusers because they claim they are being held under "secret evidence"

in america- its not a matter of the reasons not being published- its a matter of the reasons simply being deemed "secret"

im not a legal expert dave but in america we are supposed to have a right to a fair and speedy trial-
and to be able to face our accusers-

this has not happened here before- (of course all the imprisoned are arabic males 16-40)
o and citizens too-

sorry about the mix-up

Is the number 738 or 3000?

What is unreasoanble about this?

"That happens in any legal system. It is easy to abuse it. People are detained, the reasons are not published, those detaining them try to figure out what charges to file.

It would be foolish to argue that all of the above is well and fairly done. However that does not show that none of it was fair and right."

alright dave- apparently the only answer you have for anything is to deflect responsibility by accusing others-

yeah dave- the detainers are trying to figure out what to charge the kids with-

just like the over 3000 muslims being held in prison (uncharged)the last 4 years under "secret evidence"

i guess its taking a looong time to come up with charges-

so i guess both instances are just because theyve been equated?

You don't want me to respond to what you write to me? Has it come to that?

Surely the meaning of the word pacifism is not subjective.

"pacifism

the opposition to war and violence as a means of settling disputes. Pacifism may entail the belief that the waging of war by a state and the participation in war by an individual are absolutely wrong, under any circumstances."

"pacifism." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2007. Encyclopædia Britannica Online. 12 Mar. 2007 .

"SO palestinians are clearly being pacifist"

In what sense?

"Since June, Israeli troops have killed about 405 Palestinians in Gaza, including 88 children. More than half of the casualties were civilians, B'Tselem said."

Hundreds of people have been killed. That is awful. How they got killed is relevant. It is not a quibble.

"As of November, 9,075 Palestinians were being held in Israeli jails. This number included 345 minors, it said."

Are they all innocent hostages? What countries do not put minors in jail? Is there any breakdown that shows why they are in jail?

"Of these, 738 (22 minors) were being detained without trial and without knowing the charges against them, the group said."

That happens in any legal system. It is easy to abuse it. People are detained, the reasons are not published, those detaining them try to figure out what charges to file.

It would be foolish to argue that all of the above is well and fairly done. However that does not show that none of it was fair and right. So we need to find a way to start to look at these matters and talk about them in specifics.

without what dave? you keep putting up hurdles and i havent gotten a single solid comment from you yet-

heres how it goes-

i redefine pacifism-

you re-redefine it-(sidesteppin the issue altogether) and then go on to another vague statement-

this could go round and round ad infinitum (and has)

and you get more nebulous and distracting no matter how pointed and definitive my question may be-

so i give up dave- you win whatever it was you wantd to win-

please dont follow my posts anymore.
unless you want to be specific and we both know that will never happen.

peace dave

Pacifist means you don't get what you want by violence.

I have said various things about what you have posted. In my view, we need to look at what actually has happened in detail. I see no value to talking about numbers without that.

alright dave- well say more pacific then-ok?

now- finally youve played every semantic sidestep on most of the interchanges weve had- always managing to find a reason not to have an opinion.

ive posted this article several times specifically for your personal reactin and ive never gotten a straightforward addressing of the content.

its fine- it is what it is.

We use the word pacifist differently.

OK then well ust deal with facts- since the facts support that the palestininas actually ARE acting in the more pacific manner - you cant argue pure numbers-

Palestinian deaths rose in 2006
Palestinian militant killed by Israeli forces in wheeled into hospital in the West Bank
About half of those killed by Israeli forces were not involved in hostilities
Israeli security forces killed 660 Palestinians in 2006 - three times more than in 2005, according to an Israeli human rights group.

B'Tselem, which monitors human rights in the occupied territories, said the figure included 141 children.

At least 322 had taken no part in hostile acts, the group said.

In the same period, the number of deadly Palestinian attacks on Israelis has fallen - 23 Israelis were killed in 2006 compared with 50 last year.

The Israeli military renewed large scale ground operations in the Gaza Strip after militants captured an Israeli soldier in a cross border raid in June.

Throughout the year, the Israeli military has used air strikes and shelling in an attempt to stop Palestinian militants firing rockets into Israel.

Since June, Israeli troops have killed about 405 Palestinians in Gaza, including 88 children. More than half of the casualties were civilians, B'Tselem said.

As of November, 9,075 Palestinians were being held in Israeli jails. This number included 345 minors, it said.

Of these, 738 (22 minors) were being detained without trial and without knowing the charges against them, the group said.

any comments anyone?

141 children killed

ISRAELI AGGRESSION UP
PALESTINIAN AGGRESSION DOWN

SO palestinians are clearly being pacifist

when will israel step up to te same standards?

"dave- id comment that teaching the people to be pacific in the face of fatal aggression is not working out well for them as far as survival goes-

youve seen the statistics ive posted on deaths last year-"

First that is what a lot of folks want Israel to do.

Second, it would make a huge amount of sense for Palestinians to at least be more that way when they kill each other.

It is a matter of developing a habit of not automatically retaliating with violence. That is easy to say and hard to do when you are trying to impose that discipline on many armed men and women, all of whom have grievances.

personally sopka i went to prison to protect a jewish person here in america- so your analysis if directed at me is inappropriate to my case-

also possibly youre not aware that serbia has just been indicted by the world court in the hague for allowing genoiced to occur?
they stopped short of a conviction of state genoicide because that would have incurred a flurry of lawsuits for reparations by the bosnians-
but it is the first time a state of any kind has been brought to an open and legal condemnation-
opening the way for other states to be thus investigated-

im kind of lost about what point youre making about ireland altogether-
or even why its brought up-

if you are watching cspan or the bbc at all youd be aware that the sinn feins are right now subjugating themsleves to orange rule- in their politicians and even the police that patrol their streets-

dave- id comment that teaching the people to be pacific in the face of fatal aggression is not working out well for them as far as survival goes-

youve seen the statistics ive posted on deaths last year-

I saw a show about the Israel military guarding the waterways of israel before that show I was critical of Israelis but now after 9/11 and knowing what they face daily it is hard to be critical of a people protecting themselves when they have their backs against the wall.

"it is expressly forbidden to return until this happens- and is foretold that if jewish people disobey g-d in this matter untold suffering will result-"

Many famous rabbis have returned to Israel over the millenia. It is only the Ultra Orthodox who opposed the foundation of Israel and many of them have changed their minds. The Oral Torah is ongoing and complex.

"do you really think teaching non-violence to a people who are being oppressed is a help to them- or a hindrance?"

Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. did. It didn't help Jews in the first half of the 20th Century.

"is her loyalty to the cause of the palestinians? or to the maintenance of israel?"

Why are these incompatible?

"the fourth largest military power in the world"

US

Russia

China

Britain

France

India

Pakistan

?

North Korea

Iran with nuclear weapons and missiles

?

Able to defeat any other country?

My mother was born and raised in Serbia but was not ethinic serb she viewed the trouble there as a objective individual so had unprejudiced view of serbian political and religious travails. My sister is married to an Irish Catholic> If you read my statement about Ireland with an open mind unfiltered by prejudice and knee-jerk reaction I did not State that the Irish have had sovreignity always in ancient times they had and the catholics Drove out the pagan people of the Island state. If you do not think that if the Irish Retain sovreignity and if retained is the key statement that during the reformation in Europe they Would be the only country catholics and prostestant did fight each other is a bit of a fools paradise. Irish sectarian war is religious the orange men are fighting the catholics if the english left tomorrow we would be dealing with the religious genocide of protestants in northern Ireland

The Irish deny its a sectarian christian war because it has never been one- its about the english
taking the lands from the irish- it happens that the original irish are all catholic- and the english occupiers are protestant- but no one ever thinks its a religious war- its always been a national and political one.
When exactly do you imagine the catholics were in power?
o yes- in 1974 there was a few months when there was a 'power sharing' with the protestants- the the protestants changed their minds-

so by your reasoning- since the catholocs were NEVER in power- the protestants are responsible for any 'pogroms'?
and possibly you missed the world courts indictment of serbia recently? the first state to be convicted of 'failure to stop genocide'
they stopped short of actual genocide (no state has ever been convicted of this) because if they had done so the bosnians could have seeked reparations-

they stated that there was no intent to destroy every single muslim- which would constitute genocide-

the figures are over 100,000.

so you clearly understand then- there is no condemnation of jewish people-

jewish people are adherents of judaism-
a religion

anti-israeli sentiment is anit-zionism
a political system

that is the point of this question-
to stop obscuring the issue with cries of anti-semitism-

making statements that people would 'revel' in jewish people suffering is just as racist as anything ive ever heard-
lets call it anti-goy-

its like i always say-
BIGOTRY AND RACISM ARE UGLY NO MATTER WHOSE MOUTH THEY COME OUT OF

many people hide their anti-semitism under the banner of constructive criticism of Israel they do not really care much about the palestinian because if the shoe was on the other foot and Jews being treated badly they would be revelling in it. The problem is I believe as my atheist friends hammer away at with futility is religion... unlike them I do not see to belief in the divine to be the problem the religious instituions that I really believe are divine political parties gone mad... Religious people like to say it is ethinic conflict, but in northern Ireland the Irish kill each other because of sectarian war between christians something the Irish are in denial as they would like to blame it all on england but had Ireland retained sovreignity in the reformation would there been no pogroms against protestants and catholics depending on which people held political power. In yugoslavia muslim, orthodox serbs needed to create a new country because religious hatred and Albanians are pitted against each other... Ethnicity is not the problem Religious Chauvinism is as it allows people to view other as damned and thus subhuman... to these people the damned deserve what they get and the ones in power do not mind making their lives harder. it is not viciousness as much as blind religious self-righteousness that allows a lack of empathy for the other... It is not fair to blame Jews for this, all religions practice it... I know alot about self-righteousness I have battles with it daily..

starhawk- it was reading your articles that caused my confusion on your stance- this is my conflict-

im not sure why you asked me to read tyhose- i read most ofthe articles you wrote-

do you really think teaching non-violence to a people who are being oppressed is a help to them- or a hindrance?

your articles are actually making my point-

What training and preparation can do:
. Increase the safety of participants.
. Build confidence in participants facing dangerous situations.
. Teach the theory and practical tools of strategic nonviolence.
. Help people remain calm----

can you see that getting killed by bulldozers and shot by israeli soldiers isnt necessarily the best survival tools one can teach?

how have the practical tools of non-violence worked in this situation?

so your point to me is that one of the young people you trained in non-violence - by using your training- got himelsf shot in the face-

in this context strategic non-violence seems like an oxymoron-

this is pecisely my point- from reading your articles it would seem inevitable that you would ultimately have to stand in solidarity with the victims- but this isnt the case-

thats where the disconnect comes with me- anyway-

clearly this is your own spiritual conundrum-
pacifism has its validity- but when it sets up those it is supposed to help for beig slaughtered- it loses its validity as an effective strategy-

what would the motivatn be to be pacific in these situations?
the hope that the world will recognize their suffering and do something to end it?
clearly this hasnt happened- and most likely wont-

do you believe that if you were denied entrance at the end of the day to the (certainly superior) safety of israel and had to live in the nightmare you are writing about that your position would become more strongly aligned with the victims in these situations?

you can see that the years of hope deferred are having disastrous results-

well im sure these are questons you struggle wit on your own and dont need some know it all stranger making observations on your spiritual destiny- but ive spent most of my life in the trenches and living and loving with those i was working with- but at the end of the day their wn hopelessness and destiny became my own- so the perspective is different -

may the goddess bless you in your continued work-
if you werent such a valuable spiritual flower i wouldnt have any opinion at all-
peace

....backtracking....

Wait a minute.

Holy Mother of Punk, Rachel Corrie was *killed?*

*@&#.

*^@#.

Something just got that much less funny.

Actually, I just can't get off the idea of James T. Starhawk.

Mind if I call you Jim?

I'm starting to think that 'Lady' Starhawk has an unwitting son, here.

Any clue what that name might mean, Jim?

Be careful what you name yourself, you just might find it Becomes You.

Mr. Starhawk. :P

Hi everyone, I just want to point out that there are dozens of articles and reports that I have written, many from my time in the Occupied Territories, on my web page. Go to:
http://www.starhawk.org/activism/activism-writings/israel_palestine/israel_palestine.html
Victoria, you might read "A Bone from Rafah", the painful piece I wrote from Rafah after Rachel Corrie was killed, or "More Blood in Rafah," after the fatal shooting by an Israeli soldier of Tom Hurndall, a young international volunteer who had been in one of the nonviolence trainings I led. Or "The Quest for Raw Sewage." I think they will give you a fuller picture of where I actually stand on this issue. Thanks for all your comments, Starhawk

I like cookies!

Regards,

Jim

rats and bats i forgot to write that is an excerpt from her article-

Another Jewish friend "I'm in downtown Washington DC. There's a huge, pro-Israel rally going on. I don't understand it. How can Jews support this? I know you must have something inspirational to say. Send me what you write."

She doesn't know that for weeks I've been trying unsuccessfully to write something about the situation. I'm overwhelmed with accounts of the atrocities. Yet I am also haunted by images of bodies shattered at a Seder meal, at a café, a Passover drenched in a new plague of blood. I'm frightened and saddened by the real resurgence of anti-Semitism, by swastikas carried in peace marches, synagogues attacked.

A third friend, a deeply spiritual woman and longtime ecofeminist ally, sends me a copy of a letter she wrote to President Bush entitled, "Standing Firmly With Israel."

In no way can I stand with her. And yet I cannot simply stand against her, either.

I cannot stand with an Israel that tortures prisoners, an Israel that has mfusing medicalthe Israeli side, is the fourth largest military power in the world. That the suicide bombs are a direct response to calculated political assassinations and to a brutal occupation that has made life untenable for the Palestinians.

It is, on the one hand, incomprehensible to me that my friend could stand with such a regime, that the Jewish community as a whole, composed of people I know to be caring, compassionate and good, can stand behind the tanks, the bombs, the brutality.

On the other hand, I understand quite well the wrenching emotional journey that many Jews must make to admit the reality of what Israel is doing. For those of us who grew up saving our pennies to plant trees in the Galil,

But I am still a Jew, and the view from the edge can sometimes be clearer than that from the center.

see paganplace- im not trying to be unkind or critical for no reason-

ms starhawk says- (her is israel)

In no way can I stand with her. And yet I cannot simply stand against her, either.

i would say that is the definition of fence sitting-

(this is from her website and is under israel and palestine- an article heresies in pursuit of peace

heres the link
http://www.starhawk.org/activism/activism-writings/israel_palestine/heresies.html

as a side- im listening to washington journal on cspan right now- about going to war in iran- and a caller deflected criticism of americas financial support of israel with accusations of anti-semitism

now having said that you all probably know by now that im a muslim- but i became anti-zionist 12 years before i had ever heard of islam-

for instance BA"AL states that israel is a moderate religious state- this is the biggest misconception that is allowed to flourish to deflect attention from criticizing the purely political and atheist nature of zionism-

zionism is not based on judaism- it is in direct rebellion and conflict with judaism-

according to the torah- (and please these are from jewish rabbis- 100s of them) the jewish diaspora (exile from the homeland) is a direct result of isobedience to g-d- and cannot be superceded by the desires of man-

there is to be no return from exile for the jewish people until mossiach (messiah) comes and g-d gives the direct word for them to return-

this obviously hasnt happened-

search the 3 strong oaths

it is expressly forbidden to return until this happens- and is foretold that if jewish people disobey g-d in this matter untold suffering will result-

im not being anti-semitic- just this is and has always been the truth from the religious jewish perspective-

zionism was founded by avowed atheists- all of them- (this is not a disparagement of athesits) but they did not intend to create a religious state and did not do it within the observation or respect for judaism- but in direct contradiction to it-

it is difficult writing and having to insert apologies and disclaimers all the time but i get so attacked on these boards that i have to be very clear and anticipate possible distracting accusations-

many jewish peope themselves are nto even aware of this- i ca only assume ms starhawk is familiar with this position- spiritually speaking- it is a travesty _(the creation of israel and the continued deliberately misleading justification in the name of judaism)not ms starhawks personal right to practice however she wants her own religon)

just as another aside paganplace- im mostly irish- but those are other stories for other times-

ps the reason i feel compelled to comment on ms starhawk is specifically because her contributions are so valuable- and the potential for a very powerful force. not that shes not now- but a directed and focused intent would really exponentially increase her cause-

and in many ways she reminds me of what i went through years ago-spiritually speaking-

but an exegesis on pacifism is a distraction right now
peace all

Religious states -- Israel is a moderate example -- by their nature have a tendency towards exclusion and apartheid. Saudi Arabia and the Taliban are more extreme examples. Darfur is what happens when things get extreme.

One solution is to make Israel a secular state, but one perhaps where Jews, Muslims and Christians each have certain guarantees as to their security and religious freedom. (Of course, I could be wrong. Recent events in south Thailand and the Philippines make me wonder).

I also know "the tug Israel has on our hearts", since I was brought up much the same way as Starhawk. But cluster bombs dropped in civilian areas and police state tactics have cured me of that.

OK, the *Ireland* analogy was really about saying that *people get attached to the *idea* of a lost homeland. And how she appeared to be saying that she *came from* that sort of idea. I wasn't talking about the relative merits or lacks thereof of any claim, and I didn't see that as her point, either. She was being a better 'friend to the Palestinians,'
(and doubtless, in the long run, the Jews, doing *real things with real people* while we're mostly tut-tutting about the 'injustice,' and it seems she's being called a 'fence-sitter' for not *taking a side in the conflict.*

What the heck can you say.

id say weve been a true friend to the jewish people some 60 years now-
isnt it time we considered being even a mediocre friend to the palestinians?

It's not really an issue of whether Jews have a right to live, and it really is a different situation then Ireland. It's about the UN taking land from one people and giving to another for no other real reason then a claimed "divine right". If the UN believed the Jews needed reparations, I don't understand why they weren't given a chunk of Germany after WWII. The claim of Israel being their ancestral homeland is bunk. They were thrown from the land almost two thousand years ago, and they "stole" it almost two thousand years before that.

Most people will agree that Europeans treated and handled the native populations in the Americas deplorable, but what do you think would happen if the UN came in and awarded 55% of the US to the Native Americans. Knowing some of the people here they may jump for joy, but most of the nation would be at war, including citizens organizing as militias to defend their way of life, their homes, their businesses, and their farms. I'm sure many Native Americans dream that one day they'll get their ancestral lands back too, but it's not going to happen.

"We" (meaning the West) are responsible for the mess going on in that part of the world for buying into the idea that the Jews where entitled to the land. I honestly do not see a way of fixing this problem and Israel remaining a Jewish state. Maybe as a secular nation where all religions and ethic groups have equal rights under the law, but not as it is now.

Your's in the Gods

And, too, not that a lot of what my Da tried to teach me isn't in the above, this is one of the central things the magic teaches us:

We can be taught that we are essentially powerless, except to sit in some kind of outside judgement.

As in, plain old powerless with a little very conditional vindication for that condition.

But, as someone whose name I can't place right now said, "Our greatest fear is *not* that we're powerless: it's that we're immensely powerful."

We do *not* need to accept the premise that one must claim *absolute rightness* before we can do good.

Sufficiently-advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology. Magic that can be distinguished from technology is insufficiently-advanced.

This lady is showing us something of *the human, interpersonal technology of peace.*

And it sure looks magical to me. ;)

For clarity, Victoria:

""saying ms starhawk is sitting on the fence is not analogous to accusing gays for being responsible for gay-bashing-""

I didn't say that: that was about someone else's idea that the people who live in the region returning to Goddess worship would essentially 'create more violence' because surely some people there would want to react to their beliefs that way. :)

My question to *you,* though, about *your* on the-fence metaphor is *this.* What's your answer? Side with people who want to abolish Israel and cleanse the Jews out? For Starhawk *not* to work for peace and reconciliation in the *current* situation, just because of your judgement of the relative injustices?

She's saying she understands what Israel means to American Jews cause she *was* one.

As a kid I put a quarter or two in cans for charity that turned out to be going to the IRA. American Irish, too, feel ourselves to be exiles of a sort, (and have in the past often been more attached to the idea of 'kicking the Prods out' than people actually living there now.) That idea of a lost, oppressed homeland can be one of the fondest attachments, not that injustices weren't done and still are being done in some ways.

Heck, I still feel the resentment, cause the Irish as an 'oppressed people' still had real effects that came down the generations, (traumas do this: even in *my* childhood it was kind of encouraged to obscure the Irishness of our name outside the old neighborhoods,) and, I think, have only really begun to heal with my generation.

Does that mean I'd be *on the fence* about my beliefs if I went over there to do things in support of peace and reconciliation?

No, it'd mean, as I read in Starhawk's own words about her experiences, that I'd have to recognize and understand my own sentimental attachments to one 'side.' (Easier cause I'm not a Catholic, despite the upbringing. Also easier because the Republic of Ireland doesn't *want* unification, cause they couldn't even afford taking over the UK health plan. :) Cause there's the EU, cause after 9/11 the symbolism of disarmament became *moot* because of how world opinion changed.)

Not exactly what's going on with Palestine and clusterbombs, no. I've heard told, though, about how the old resentments and some of the injustices linger, and how the people who live there are just *weary* of the radicals trying to inflame each other, and them. It's not being covered, much, but I caught the tail end of a BBC report of someone or other possibly managing to derail the peace next year.

I felt immediately called to try and go do something for *peace* even if I'd really have to question if I've exactly got any kind of reserve of patience for *either* Catholicism or Protestantism.

But I also know the real issue isn't about that, and it's not about me or anyone *deciding* anything, anyway. There are people who want peace and community, and it's *not* fence-sitting to be on the side of *peace.* People who can act on *that* side without compromise have my admiration and respect.

ive had to re-explain myself too much but starhawk is blessed that she has such staunch defenders and friends looking out for her-

sorry i didnt intend to be anonymous

you can see im not alone in this observation- she seems to be deeply conflicted about her memories of dreams of planting trees in a brave new israel and the realities she see it is costing the palestinians for those trees to be planted-

perhaps in time she will reconcile her selves with a conclusion- ive personally reached a conclusion and i recognize that at some point she will have to also- i dont really want to criticize ms starhawk i just feelshe has a deep conscience and committment and self analysis will only stengthen her self-

we dont have 2 hearts and try as we may to be totally honest as humans we have to have loyalty eventually to one-

her celebrity would do much to help-

im just saying if you want to help- shouldnt you do all that you possibly can?

this is the source of my comment

starhawk writes-

regarding israel-
In no way can I stand with her. And yet I cannot simply stand against her, either.

Yet to say, "both sides are wrong, both sides should give up violence" is to ignore the reality that one side, the Israeli side, is the fourth largest military power in the world. That the suicide bombs are a direct response to calculated political assassinations and to a brutal occupation that has made life untenable for the Palestinians. That for over fifty years, the State of Israel has failed to guard and cherish the Palestinians' rights, aspirations, and hopes for an independence that could lead to peace and prosperity.

there is no conclusion made in this article- ill post it-

saying ms starhawk is sitting on the fence is not analogous to accusing gays for being responsible for gay-bashing-

i would never say blame the victim- ever- i have a long (20 years) history as an AIDS activist and caregiver to pwas-

by her own words- she is 'on the fence'

read the article
http://www.starhawk.org/activism/activism-writings/israel_palestine/heresies.html

ms gazelle- you wrote-

When the jews were being shuttled from one nation to another with no one wanting them.

this is a cmmon misconception but is not the case historically- it is a vivid description and one would have to be heartless to not be moved by such a portrayal- but there were many many options refused by the zionisit- britain offered- hungary- the us- spain- all offered to relocate jewish refugees with monetary seed money 1000.00 on arrival- the zionists refused these offers allowing jews to be killed instead- here is one statement-

Chaim Weitzman, the first "Jewish statesman" stated: "The most valuable part of the Jewish nation is already in Palestine, and those Jews living outside Palestine are not too important". Weitzman's cohort, Greenbaum, amplified this statement with the observation "One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Europe".

the creation of an israeli state was more important tha the many lives of sacrificed european jews-

here is a link of religious jews and questions they had-

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/tenquestions.htm

jewish people themselves are in extreme disagreement on the issue of israel-

look at the framing of the question here- by contrast there is the implication that one is a bad jew if one criticizes israel-

i think there needs to be a more balanced view of the issue with the same attention given to the present(and actively oppressed) victims as allotted to the past(now comfortably ensconced) victims

i think that is a fair analysis and it is time for the dialogue to remove the emotional atmosphere that has driven policy for so long-
(well that and AIPAC- the 2nd largest lobby in america)

I would say, Victoria, you're confusing not 'taking an extreme position' (or just 'taking a side' in the conflict,) with 'Being on the fence.' She's not 'on the fence.' She's trying to tear *down* the fence. She's the least on-the-fence person I can *think* of right now when it comes to actually working for peace.

Doing things for real. And that's exactly what her Pagan beliefs call for, if not, as she sees it, her Jewish heritage. I'd take care of perhaps mistaking a lack of 'extremism' for a lack of *certainty.*

I think the thing we can be certain about is that we're not likely to see *any* opinion about Israel over there without some peace and justice. And you can't *impose* that, no matter how good you think your opinion is.

Not that this seems to be on Starhawk's agenda, but it brought a bitter sort of little laugh when Tim said this:

"It does seem the God of Abraham has done a real number there, but I believe any call or serious movement to return to the ancient deities in that area of the world would result in even more strife."

Can't help but ask, "More than what?"

Over here in America, a return to the ancient deities may have made some people subject to the same repressions that would be present if all Pagans had surrendered to it and gone, "Oh, well, this isn't feasible, maybe next life,"

...What you're saying is like blaming a gay person's gayness for creating gaybashing.

Actually, yes, I'd be somewhat afraid for anyone openly professing a belief in the old Goddesses, personally, but they wouldn't be *creating* the 'strife.'

Actually, I think that Pagans being around here in America has had (along with many other things) the unintentional effect of actually challenging people of other faiths to examine their preconceptions about their religions' assumptions and social actions. Sure, there's a certain number of radicals who are *very* afraid of this, and hateful of us just for having the temerity to be around, but they'd be haters, anyway.

But for everyone to whom we just present another target, there are probably four or five who kind of realize that come to see that revilers and repressors are not what they want themselves, or their religions, or their government to be. This , apart from just seeming to have a theological need for *enemies* is why those haters are so disproportionately *scared* of us.

Certainly, stories I've heard about Ulster Druids and Pagans shows that there's some value for everyone in the breaking down of walls when people from different 'sides' can come together on something. At least on the more 'ethnic' front.

Not only that it's *more possible than they think* to lay down ancient grudges and get together on something, but maybe even that certain ideas of the big monotheistic religions are *way behind the curve on this kind of thing.*

No wiccan how can people leave their home? but there are many who have lost their home- the right of return is certainly a valid request for the palestinians to make-

it would seem to be a natural solution however the israelis could never let this happen- not because they cant support the immigrants (actually without american financila aid for 50 years israels economy would collapse) but because since israel is ostensibly a democracy- there is the potential that they would be equaled or even outnumbered by the palestinians - who by israels own laws would have to give them a voice -

but there are many things israel can do right now- the partitioning of the land so that palestinians have access to water is one-

currently palestine pays 50 million dollars in taxes to israel-

specifically allowing the bnking industry to open and operate- (one cannot send money to palestine as there arent any banks to receive it)

the olive groves have been destroyed and the houses built over- so you cant unring a bell-
but you can stop activities that oppress thepalestinians and alow tem to rebuild their own infrastructure and get on with their lives-

as i put links from jewish religious people to comment on their stance on israle- i feel it is best to let people speak for their own issues-

here is a link to palestinians speaking for themselves-

http://www.palestineremembered.com/

i recommend quizzing yourslef on israeli democracy as a start-
i post links hoping people will look at them and educate themselves but i have yet to have a response to them-

personally i read every link posted- especially if theyre opposed to my own views-

peace

Victoria, as I said in my post: of course I would not suggest that all Israelis leave Israel again. What I said was that there is a core to the Middle-East conflict that has a root that reaches deep back in time. That root is based on the belief of many Jews that Israel is their god-given homeland. Since at least the turn of the first millennium, Jews (esp from Europe) emigrated in countless waves to an area that included today's Israel - to settle in what was already settled: by Arabs. That in turn (understandably) led to conflicts, often of a violent nature. Large waves of emigration began in the late 19th century, swelling the Jewish population to more than 1/2 million by the end of WWII. During that time Arabs of course fought back but Jews also strengthened their claims to the land they occupied.

While it is of course understandable that Jews fled from many periods of persecution in their former, especially European homelands, they nevertheless were driven to what became Palestine based on their belief that this was their true home. And they took possession of land through many means - like they do today, causing hatred amongst those who originally lived on that land (also like today). And the biggest coup certainly was the declaration of independence and the proclamation of the State of Israel in 1947/1948. So: the occupation of land in the 1967 war, the expansion of Jewish settlements ever since (against UN resolutions) and the continuation of illegal land grabs (e.g for building the wall to separate Israel from Palestinian territory) has a long history dispossession, injustice, violence and misguided religious beliefs (including that of self-righteousness and religious superiority)

In my previous response to Terra Gazelle drew a comparison to countries like New Zealand and Canada. Those nations too were created by the illegal annexation of land occupied by its original inhabitants. I didn't argue that these nations should be disbanded and the land be given back to the indigenous people - from the perspectives of everyone living there, including the indigenous descendants of the original conquest victims, this would be totally infeasible. What has happened though in those countries is that current and recent governments have formally apologised, signed peace treaties or otherwise acknowledged the wrongdoings of their forbearers. My suggestion was that such actions, initiated by those Jewish people being highly critical of Israel's behaviour towards Palestinians, could be a step towards peace. It certainly is not 'the' step but it could maybe add more credibility to the support given to the people in Palestine.

In this particular context though, there are a few pre-conditions for acknowledging and apologising for past wrongs: one is certainly a rejection of the idea that Jews have a god-given right to occupy the so-called holy land. It was this idea that has driven the many migration waves I talked about earlier, it is still driving Israel's current expansion policies and it is a very important justification for why Israel as a state exists. Other arguments also need to be critically reflected, e.g. does the suffering of Jews, especially under the Nazi terror regime, justify the expropriation of other people's land? I feel that statements like “I was raised as an American Jew in the postwar period, when Israel was our great dream realized, our one compensation for the horrors of the Holocaust” (made by Starhawk) do not reflect such self-critical introspection.

Victoria, I hope I have made my argument a bit clearer.

As for Norrie Hoyt: mate, the aggressiveness of your reply is anything but helpful. It certainly is not an expression of a civilised discussion and it doesn't further any exploration of the complexity of the conflict we are reflecting on. It also shows a total disrespect for an opinion other than the one you seem to have. I do respect passion but I totally reject rudeness!

thank you, starhawk, for a balanced, honest, and much-needed perspective about relations between and conditions in israel and palestine.

it seems to me that some folks commenting here are struggling to take in an articulation that isn't the simplistic, black-or-white kind of picture the mainstream media paints in this country. instead, what you have shared acknowledges the overlooked dynamics, like the many jewish and israeli people who also long and work for a peaceful solution.

living in the uk for the last few years, i was struck my how discussions about israel-palestine in the media and 'on the street' there have much more depth. one factor that rarely if ever gets mentioned here is the large nuclear stockpile that israel has. (also in the uk i learnt of the man, mordechai vanunu, who reported on israel's nuclear capabilities and how he spent 18 years in an israeli jail.)

the roots of this conflict go way back, without doubt. but also clear is the role that money, power, and military desires play in the continued support by the u.s. of a crushing occupation and regime.

love and support to all those working to resist and transform this situation,
peace,
laura

Victoria-

I must admit that your criticism of Starhawk leaves me confused. I see a person who had a cherished dream, then saw a reality that tarnished that dream, and did what she could do make it better. In your opinion, what is she supposed to do?

There are over seven million people in Israel. Are they supposed to say, "My bad", and leave? Especially since most of them weren't alive when Israel was created? You yourself made a post of the history of Palestine. Can you tell me who has clear title to this land? Wouldn't it make more sense to work for peace between the peoples in Israel? Isn't it time to beat swords into plowshares?

Isiria,

The Jews did not steal the Arabs' land in British Palestine. (The Ottomans did not call the territory "Palestine"). Your recounting of your imagined history of the area is the most mixed-up, confused, tendentious bunch of baloney I've ever encountered. Get a good, objective history of Palestine-Israel. Read it and then get a life.

Regards.

nobody i think has said ms starhawk isnt pagan or jewish enough- but you bring up an interesting point-

in trying to keep everyone happy ms starhawk possibly needs to get off the fence to be taken as a credible voice- a powerful voice that she makes reference to-

is her loyalty to her new found religion? or her upbringing? is her loyalty to the cause of the palestinians? or to the maintenance of israel?

those actually are questions that must be answered- sometimes we have to take a stand against what is wrong even if it means making some unhappy and not be a people pleaser-

she doesnt have to make me happy- only her self-

Anthony,

I know there are those that want to blame everything inherently wrong with the world on the Bush Administration (just like there are those who blame the existence of males in general), but America's policy toward Israel goes way back and crosses many Presidential Administrations, both Republican and Democrat, both Conservative and Liberal. To be constructive we need to look beyond finding fault, especially when its based more on personal contempt for those currently in power then on the reality of the situation.

Yours in the Gods.

Kudos to you for your thoughtful and beautifully written article and it is a shame that principled voices like yours rarely find their way to the mainstream TV channels or papers.

Israel's brutal occupation and callous treatment of Palestinians and Washington's support are a shameful stain on the Bush Administration and an indictiment of its fraudulent Peace Process.

This occupation with its daily unreported atrocities and criminal apartheid policies against non Jews must come to an end in order for genuine and long lasting peace to prevail in the Holy Lands for the benefit of Jews, Christians and Moslems.

Terra,

I may have stated Starhark was intolerant, being closed-minded, and that she was placing personal agenda before the Pagan community, but I did not (nor did others) say she was not Pagan enough. The Pagan community is a big tent. Maybe you do, but I don't have to agree with a person's beliefs, opinions, or motivations to recognize them as being Pagan.

Yours in the Gods.

Adjuvant,

It's so easy to blame all the world's woes on men isn't it? As if all the alpha-maleness isn't at all based on female wants and desires, all of which have been hard-wired into our brains since before our ancestors even where able to walk erect.

The problem with Israel does not go back decades, it goes back several millennia, and frankly, in my opinion, illustrates more a problem with monotheism then it does male divinities.

Yours in the Gods.

TG, one of the root courses for the current struggle of the Palestinian people is an historical one: their land was stolen by people who held and still hold a totally unjustifiable religious belief: that Palestine is THEIR land. These people were driven some 2000 years ago by the Romans from what was once their land, and in the 1920s they all of sudden decided to reclaim it. Mark this: the Jews didn't just turn up at the end of WWII as you claim - the Zionist terror campaign of bombing, murder and ethnic cleansing started in the 1920s! Just imagine the Germans all of a sudden would start a similar campaign to get back parts of France, Poland and Russia because those lands were theirs either before WWI or WWII - there would be justifiably a worldwide outrage. Look at what the Basques do in Spain: they want autonomy, yet they are condemned as terrorists by almost the whole world. They use the same methods against the Spaniards which the Zionists used against the Palestinians, but their actions are wrong while those of the Jews were right. Why? Don't tell me anything about the 'promised land' - why should the Jewish god have the right to determine the fate of another people who happen to have a different religious belief? How can that god condone the terror propagated by his ‘own’ people and condemn that of another people? And why do we need many gods anyway – isn’t there just one, if at all?

So, from the very beginning of this conflict, almost 4 generations ago, the Arab Semites were the ones who suffered at the hands of the Jewish Semites. That is something that really needs to be clearly acknowledged but isn't, neither by you nor by Starhawk nor by any other Jew I have ever met. Your and their story always starts with the right of the Jews to have a homeland - that this 'right' exists at the expense of the Palestinians who lived on that same land for 2000 years always seems irrelevant. The great injustice that started this terrible conflict gets always swept under the carpet for probably no other but selfish or self-serving reasons.

Once of course you assume that right as god-given and therefore ethically defensible, you won't stop there. You begin to steal more land, because that was divinely promised as well, you commit more murder, more racial cleansing, more pillaging etc. - all of which accurately reflects the history of the State of Israel since it was artificially installed by the Western political powers - under pressure from the Zionist movement, misguided feelings of guilt and big Jewish money.

I don't want to trivialise the efforts of well-meaning Jewish liberals when they try to stop human rights abuses by Israeli governments of whatever political persuasion. I can't though simply overlook the feeling that such efforts are nothing but extended charity as long as the questions of the original land grab, its religious justification and terror that led to it are not addressed. I am not saying that the Jews should be driven out of Israel - what I suggest is some honest soul searching. How about guys learn something for example from the Canadians, the New Zealanders and many Australian people who have acknowledged the injustices of their previous generations and apologised to the respective original inhabitants of their lands? That could be a step to reconciliation!

I am starting to think that Starhawk should skip trying to please anyone on this forum. She is Pagan But not Pagan enough...she was Jewish but her experiences and those of her family was not thoughtful enough...
oh and Victoria..the name is Starhawk..Not starbuck..that is a cup of coffee not a Witches Brew!

Isiria,
Starhawk was talking about the experiences and thoughts that was alive in post war period. When the jews were being shuttled from one nation to another with no one wanting them. Millions had died in a campaign of eradication and they had no homes..
That was the time, that was why they looked for a fulfilled promise. And I believe in a Palestinian land, so does Starhawk...she has been there taking care of palestinian children and trying to save Palestinian homes.

In addition to Adjuvant's comments I'd like to say that there is one line in Starhawk's post that irks me: "I was raised as an American Jew in the postwar period, when Israel was our great dream realized, our one compensation for the horrors of the Holocaust."

I would have expected a bit more critical reflection. After all: this kind of 'compensation' was not only given by the UN to Jewish settlers after taking land away from the original people living there; the UN decision was also the end of a long campaign of terror against the british so-called protectorate forces and the Arab-Semitic people living there. The then Zionists fought for what they thought was their god-given land (I have never seen any god allocating land except the one in the minds of deluded people), and they did that for example through exactly the same methods they are condemning now: through bombing campaigns.

The Zionist’s methods were brutal and racist, based on hubris and a dangerously delusory self-image of superiority, and I often wonder how much actually has changed in the minds of Israeli politicians and the majority of Jewish (not just Israeli) people. By the way: the leader of the Zionist terror brigades was Ben-Gurion who later became Israel’s first serving prime minister.

In short: the state of Israel is built on bloodshed, terror, arrogance and racism, and it is no surprise that these qualities still are the ones that describe her relationship with Palestinians and other Arabic people.

Addendum: I would like to point out, that the Palestinians are also Semitic people. It is typical for the arrogance and racist attitude of the Zionist mind (and maybe a sad indictment on the level of education of many jews) a) to believe that only critique levelled at Jewish people can be judged 'anti-Semitic', and b) consequently not to see how misery and humiliation propagated by successive Israeli governments and generations of Jewish people is also anti-Semitic.

un resolutions against israel (65)

http://www.jatonyc.org/UNresolutions.html

only one at a time can be posted

Adjuvant- thats why i devoted 2 years of my life teaching native maerican kids english and art on the reservation- the average native american (in the late 80s) had a 2nd grade education level-

i was made an honorary walking tree and member of the pomo tribe-

so i walk my talk and feel i earnedmy right to live inamerica- as i served the indigenous and got their blessings-

that is why im so critical of others who do what starbuck is doing- take it to the deepest point of ones conscience-

i actually made the same point about america usurping the indigenous peoples and israel-
on another post-

youre right- anti-zionism is not anti-semitism(jewishness) actually anti-palestinianism is also anti-semitism (as theyre both semitic)

according to the UN in 1974 they decalred that
ZIONISM =RACISM

not my decision but that of the united nations

so we dont excuse their actions because they are "just following the lead of the US"

here is the opinion of jewish people about zionism- let them speak for themselves-

now religious jewish people speak

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

i didnt post these before out of respect for ms starbuck as she comes from a jewish background and i didnt want her to feel her jewishness was being ctitiqued
peace

Tim

It is not their land to own. Just because my ancestors came from Poland and Germany does not mean I somehow have a claim there. Why in the name of religion will men claim that it is their god (man created and manipulated) given right to be somewhere? Because it is just another land grab! Take take take rape destroy mutilate kill.

I was of the understanding that the idea of Israel was the return to of the Jews to their native lands. Shouting seems uncalled for. Aren't Victoria and the others entitled to their own opinions?

Victoria and others of like mind,

Israel is just following the lead of the USA and doing to the Native Peoples of the region exactly what the early religious settlers from Europe did to the Native Americans. They exploited the lands they lived on and survived off of, plundered and killed (buffalo, wolves, etc)and killed and destroyed other human beings and their way of life, because they were in their (white males, who claim to be civilized)way. They considered it their right to remove the Pagans from their evil ways because cristianity is the only way.
No difference in the way the Israeli government treats the Palestinians. For some male created reason, they feel that that land is owed to them because of some males long ago claim on it in the name of a god.

To say the truth, no matter how much it hurts someone's feelings, is not the same as expressing predjudice against a particular people or their beliefs. To claim to be spiritual and live the supposed good way that your god tells you to do and in the process, whether by direct action or inaction, torture, kill, destroy, mutulate another life and this precious Mother Earth is despicable.

ALL BECAUSE OF THE SELFISH NEED OF MALES TO OWN AND POSSESS LAND AND PROPERTY. No one owns or ever will own any part of this panet. We are only tenants, visitors, fragile organic life forms. We need to share, work together, help one another, and actively show kindness and love.

Good points. It is the same issue with the Bush administration, you are either with us or with the terroists. Debate, argument and intellectual freedom are not only essential tenets within Jewish faith, it is supposedly part of our American cultural heritage as well.

I am always suspicious when all critique is labeled as racist. Surely after over 500 years of American racism, some of us can discern what is and what is not racist.

As an african american, I often find true solidarity and understanding from my many Jewish allies and colleagues. But even I feel sometimes like I am on trial if I raise issues with the actions of the Israeli government, even amongst supposededly liberal Jews.

We need a middle ground, where we admit that some actions support justice, and others are oppressive -- no matter who does them. And if it was wrong to eject people from their ancestral lands in America and in South Africa, it is also wrong in Israel. And if it is wrong to destroy people homes and force them to live in resettled areas in Poland, it is wrong in Israel.

We need even more dialogue, debate and creative problem solving, not less. Because the longer we inhibit this open and free discussion, more people will die from the violence and hatred on all sides.

ms starbuck- honestly i am not trying to criticize you- perhaps you can lead me to a more balanced view- i am anti-zionist- it is hard for me to imagine how a person could spend time with and see the injustices still being perpertrated againt the original landholders-

perhaps there is some way you can rationalize this- or you are more fair headed than i- but i cannot imagine this dichotomy in one breast-

im not nor ever have said israel doesnt have a right to exist- its past that point- theyve yelled long enough and loudly enough-

but do you think your upbringing has strengthened your emotional ties to israel beyond your ability to differentiate a political land grab?

if you are determined to a stalwart warrior against injustice- isnt there a part of you that feels some sense of wrongness in zionism?

this is a direct question-

its a yes or no-

its admirable that you want to do something to help- but dont you think its necessary spiritually to take that last brave leap and call it what it is? you come close but cop out at the last minute- when it counts-

and i dont think thats cool at all

there is criticism in my remarks and that is intended- i do not feel youre a weak or unreasonable person who will react in an angry or knee jerk waty-

but an honest answer please-

and please- i have my own works and life- im not asking you what peace means - or how we should be tolerant - i dont need to feel good-

i just cant see how you can reconcile zionism with your philosophy-

Ms. Starhawk
You are one of the coolest panelist in On Faith. A humane and spiritual being and person. Love all your pieces, but leaving fellow Pagans to agree or disagree on the finer points of paganism which I don't know of course. I don't even know the all the finer points of my own religion as yet.

My one thought is - it takes a Pagan to put it all in perspective....

Thank you, dear.

It does seem the God of Abraham has done a real number there, but I believe any call or serious movement to return to the ancient deities in that area of the world would result in even more strife.

Regarding the original question presented to the panelists ("Can you be critical of Israel and not be anti-Semitic? Can you be critical of Israel and be a faithful Jew?"), I believe it is ultimately a political question for most of us, not a religious one.

Regardless, in my opinion, it depends on how we are defining anti-Semitism. If it is any discrimination against or prejudice or hostility toward Jews as a religious, racial, or ethnic group, then I believe one could be anti-Semitic if critical of Israel. It is, of course, a Jewish state.

As far as being a "faithful Jew", I think is a separate issue to the anti-Semitism and would need to be determined on a case by case basis. There is such a thing as the "loyal opposition" but there is also self-hating, but I think this is an issue for Jews to handle within themselves.

I'd like to think Starhawk is onto something valuable here. There is already a small and rapidly growing Pagan movement in Israel that has been restoring worship of the goddesses indigenous to the land like Asherah. Considering how the God of Abraham has been implicated in a lot more bloodshed than peacemaking there, why not give the Goddess a chance? All the Israeli Pagans I know of come from Jewish backgrounds, like Starhawk. There have been hints of Arab Goddess revival in the Middle East too, but little information because of the extreme secrecy needed, especially when it's a question of uppity Arab wimmin.

So I dream of Arab and Jewish Pagans miraculously getting past the barriers that separate them... and joining together in the worship of the land's Goddesses that they all share in their common ancestry, to cooperate in working toward peace. I have a CD of Israeli Pagan songs with the same phrase sung in Hebrew and Arabic: "One hug per day brings peace that will last" - hibuk ehad le-yom mevi' et ha-shalom / mu`anaqah wahdi fi yom bi-halli al-salam yadum.

Starhawk,
I am 55 years old and was raised by parents who practiced no denominational religion. My sisters and I learned to develop our independence at the dinner table when both my parents would engage in discussions of everything from Homer's The Illiad and The Odyssey, through the power of mythology, the Christianization of the Old Gods by the Catholic Church and down through history to the current social and political environment (mid 1960's thru early 1970's). During these years of discourse, listening to my intelligent, radical and totally feminist parents (both of them)....I learned alot about the Jewish religion, the history of their sufferings from the Old Testament through the Holocaust. I remember my Dad and Mom discussing the different dispensations of the Jews and their suffering over the course of time. They began talking about the Isreali-Palestinian issue (Arafat was coming into the scene). I could remember my Dad talking about the leaders of the Israeli people needing to remember their history and responsibilites to their people and thus to all men. When I read your article, I remembered that conversation from over 30 years ago...I looked up the quote...(it took me awhile). It was by a Presbyterian minister, Gardiner Spring (1785- 1873) " I know not where to look for any single work which is so full of the great principles of political wisdom, as the laws of Moses and the history of the kings of Israel and Judah." Maybe...someone needs to get the Israeli leaders
a channeled conversation with the big 'M' himself. I bet Moses would be pissed off... and so would Jesus. (They have the same spiritual father, you know.. Or so I understand). I pray the peace of their God descends upon them. So Mote it be.