The Goddess Blesses All Forms of Love

"I knew at the age of 8, when I would sneak down to the creek at night and pore water on a large rock in the middle of the stream...talking to the spirits of the place. I felt what others didn't"

Terra, this brought a smile to my face. I was also 8, living in the buckle of the 'bible belt', when I met Herne in the still woods. I remember the wonder and awe and the feeling that at last I had come *home*. :)

I grew up worshipping the Lady and Herne in my heart, leaving offerings for Them in the woods behind my home, long before I'd ever heard of 'Wicca'.

I'm so glad to see the Goddess tradition being vocalized like this.!!! I to beleive that all love is sacred and I to beleive in the power of polarity( Gods/Goddesses) but this is not to say that gays cant find love either as we are all both male and famale in some ways right? I just came from a wounderful Ostara ritual in which we meditated in the renewed love of the Maiden and the young Horned One at this flirty time of year!!It's what makes being human so wounderful- that we can feel all the power that love can bring if we just first find it within ourselves. I think that anyone or "Religion "that says it is wrong for two ( or 3,lol)people to love each other based on there appearence or gender has a problem with themselves and their own self love and should mind their own beeswax!!If we spent as much time loving as we do hating and judging we would have a lot less war and destruction in the world. peace and love,
Bright Blessings!-MoonSongWitch

Tad,

beastiality, pedophilia and necrophilia are not now, have never been and shall never be "forms of love" they are methods of control and power. they are not mutual, they are forced, so no the Goddess would not bless them. Nice try though.

Lately, I've developed a strange habit of falling in love with fictitious characters. All the "real" people I love appear to be spoken for. I don't know what the Goddess feels about unrequited love--that is, loving someone regardless of whether they love me back or not. I figure the feeling is valid, even if not returned. In any case, here I am at age 42, and I still haven't a clue who my soulmate is, or what gender/race/culture etc. they happen to be...

One more:

Mad Love:
I can't help but think that if Jesus were to come back he would probably rather hang with the Wiccans than the Christians. They seem to have a lot more in common.

Posted March 1, 2007 5:34 AM

I think that a whole heck of a lot of christians would denounce him as being a socialist hippy freak

a few responses to some comments!

Susan:
Headrosexual!?? Is this some kind of new orientation? If you are going to post at least check your spelling etc. When you don't it's hard to take you seriously.

I still can't believe it. Headrosexual?

Posted March 9, 2007 2:50 PM

-Could refer to a man that is obsessed with the oral act, like head-rosexual?

Mad Love:
I can't help but think that if Jesus were to come back he would probably rather hang with the Wiccans than the Christians. They seem to have a lot more in common.

Posted March 1, 2007 5:34 AM

fiver:
Oh, come on "Starhawk." What's with the "we pagans" and "traditionally"? There is no pagan tradition; christianity and its swords (cannons, smallpox, etc.) effectively wiped paganism out (aside from very few remnants). There's nothing inherently wrong about making up your own religion, but at least be honest about it. Your claiming the mantle of paganism is the same as your claiming the mantle of "Starhawk" - you made it up yourself.

Posted March 1, 2007 7:22 PM

- You must remember that ALL religions are "made up". That does not invalidate any of them. King James was suffering from Syphillis when he demanded that the Bible be re-written, and Ergot poising(a illness that causes hallucinations) was rampant when the original books of the Bible were written, which could explain some of the unbelievably violent and insane content.
And as far as names go, was "fiver" given to you by your parents?

franco:
Starhawk, you need counseling!

Posted February 28, 2007 3:46 PM

-Franco, is that all you can come up with? You seem to be posting the same comment on all of Starhawk's blogs.
Maybe you would like to take your hands out of your underwear for a minute and elaborate on the issue?

LOL, this is all so funny!

franco:
Starhawk, you need counseling!

Posted February 28, 2007 3:46 PM

Why? Does a woman who can speak about sex and love frighten you?

The ability to communicate effectively relates directly to credibility.

Susan, didn't your mother teach you that if you have nothing nice to say don't say anything at all?

Get a grip on yourself! All these postings and that is all you can muster up to comment on. You need to get a life girl.

Headrosexual!?? Is this some kind of new orientation? If you are going to post at least check your spelling etc. When you don't it's hard to take you seriously.

I still can't believe it. Headrosexual?

"All acts of Love and Pleasure are Her rituals..." I applaud you, Starhawk !!! Peace and Love to you all...especially those who dogmatically turn their noses up at Love of another hue or tone. This world is so full of hatred and anger, any form of Love and Compassion should be welcomed with open arms and opened heart. I am a Witch who happens to be a straight male...my life-mate is a Witch and a straight female. We are deeply in Love with one another, and we both have gay friends whom we also dearly love. We treasure their friendship and beauty as human beings. It's really that simple and straight from the mouth of Jesus..."Love one another." )O( PEACE

Greetings all,

It did my heart good to read Starhawk's comments. I am straight, a Witch, a mother of biological children and many foster children. During the course of my life , I have been a strong advocate for children from abusive families...specialized in sexual abuse, have heard every disgusting sexual variation possible and have stood against it in the front lines of social work and the courts. However, there is a huge difference between the type of love and pleasure Starhawk is talking about and the very real predators who use sex as a weapon of terror and control. Many of the children victimized by sexual predators which I have personally advocated for have (as adults) sought the pagan paths of spirituality BECAUSE it was a path that led them to be able to heal from the effects of sexual abuse. The Pagan path and community helped them to develope a healthy respect for their own sexuality separate from the traumas suffered in their childhood. I rejoice in the fact that these young men and women have found peace with their bodies, have found beauty in diversity and acceptance in a community that strives to be open, honest and without malice. May the Peace of YOUR God/dess Be with You...whoever you may be.

Why is it when Christians talk about others as abominations and talk ceaselessly and endlessly about who and what will be punished that it drives people away from christ.. I grew up in california and was a christian when I went to live in the Bible belt the experience chrystallized for me what was lacking in christianity tolerance, acceptance and love. Hearing that Buddhist relatives will go to hell and gay friends be punished, things not said to one by the faithful in califiornia because the majority view such statements rude and uncivlized made me realize that these vocal statements told rudely to my face in the bible belt is what christians believe in their heart... The new testament said that all religion not of christ and anyone not seeking salvation in christ is lost no matter how liberal you are those are tenets of the church It is stated over and over again in the bible, the New testament is not ecumenical to pretend it is try to hoodwink liberal minded adherents and converts... when chruch was converting Rome they promised women equality before God, When the church held absolute power in Europe they betrayed Women by legalizing in church Canon domestic abuse of wife and children if it made them better christians... It happened then it can happen again as long a they have written in their books the only way to sanctity is in Christ and christianity the rest of us are damned and easy picking for the holy this I learned living among Devout christians who have political and social power and clout... It is alright to bully the damned that is why I am not a christian anymore but worship the Goddess the perfect mother she has no favorites among her children.

Sir Bedevere: What makes you think she's a witch?
Peasant: Well, she turned me into a newt!
Sir Bedevere: A newt?
Peasant: [meekly after a long pause] ... I got better.
Crowd: [shouts] Burn her anyway!

Pagan,

I agree we (Americans) do owe Free Masonery a great deal...our most beloved founders were Masons. They must have gained much from their membership and what that group stood for.

I hear that the Masons gave Wiccans so much, I keep on wondering what. Maybe the three degrees..but I find them handy as a teacher and coven leader...I can think of really nothing else.

Those that say we were invented in 1947 know nothing about history, migration or evolution.

Also, that's nothing against Mason-ry. Most of my heroes among America's founding fathers, as well as a man who taught me a lot about how to approach working with my hands were Masons.

Just saying, thanks for the loaner, but that's not *really* to do with Wicca in most ways. There are still some ideas we'd thank them for, if one knew where to look, though.

Masons, to me, are mostly these guys who left a *really* intriguing symbolic language in a lot of the edifices we call American.

Like, America.

Not sure just what's up with those guys right now, but they seem to be selling off a lot of nice 'Temple' space all over the country that Pagans could use if a building was what we wanted.

OK, that wasn't precisely-fair. Sorry. Actually, some of the people who usually go down as 'Founders Of Wicca' borrowed a lot from the Masons in terms of 'How To Have A Secret Society,' and most of that stuff was just kind of jettisoned along the way, particularly in popular practice.

I think anyone who says, 'Your religion was made up in 1947,' just plain never tried to do anything of the sort. :)

"Exactly what do the Masons do that is of WitchCraft?

I have seen some Mason Rites and none of them look like Wicca."

Good. :)

mark: ""Whatever you believe, you must accept all scriptures as the word of god. Not just what is conveinent to you.
Otherwise, you have a serious problem.
"The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their asin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves."
Isaiah 3,9"

I assume you mean (and please correct me if I am misunderstanding you) that even if a person is not Christian, they must accept all Biblical scripture as the word of the one and only True God. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. I am pagan, and I accept no one group of writings as the final spiritual authority. I find that there is much wisdom in your holy book, as well as much that I, quite frankly, consider tripe. I can say the same about every other religious text I have ever read. I also find spiritual wisdom in the writings of Mark Twain, Stephen Hawking, Byrd Baylor, Walt Whitman, Federico Garcia Lorca, Leonard Cohen, Confucius, and Dr. Suess, to name a few.
To me, the words of Huckleberry Finn and the Lorax are every bit as important and meaninful as the words of Paul (more important than Paul, if the truth be known. Some of Paul's writings indicate that he had some major issues with sexuality in general, and his own in particular).

Exactly what do the Masons do that is of WitchCraft?

I have seen some Mason Rites and none of them look like Wicca.

I also like how poetry circles can often break out. Blessed be, Linda. And Corbie, and all. :)

Definitely had to catch my breath, as well as deal with this great pile of snow that my driveway's become. Certainly, sometimes the Net makes it feel like we're subject to unremittant hostility, and it's important to remember the singing and dancing part. :)

But, people who are afraid of and hateful to us tend to be speaking from their own fears and worldview: it's as simple as that.

For such an 'anything goes' religion, I observe that we seem to show a lot more respect and responsibility in sexual matters than those who believe that without their rules, people must be like 'slavering with lust' or something, when really it seems to be the opposite case. We aren't the ones shouting out car windows, are we?

For people who don't think material things are inherently bad, we seem to be an awful lot less acquisitive than certain others who like to shout about what they call 'virtue,' either.

Quite often our detractors speak from what psychology calls 'an external locus of control.' They don't understand the emphasis our traditions place on *self* control, and *awareness and responsibility for the effects of one's actions,* not 'Gee, people don't follow the rules, we need stricter rules and more enforcement.'

It's seriously said by some, "If everyone doesn't want to prevent lesbian couples of thirty five years from having the right to share their lives and property, then 'someone' is going to think it's OK to molest children and marry wildebeest!"

I think it's ironic indeed that a law in Texas at once violated gay people's civil rights *and* legalized bestiality, as long as the randy gentleman in question owns the animal.

How about that.

Fact is, these kinds of ideas of control and property just aren't written into our world like that, and if people think we're the ones with some kind of problem of 'control' regarding sex, when we accept ourselves and others in a loving context, then maybe they've got something to learn from us.

And I suspect that's exactly what some are afraid of.

There's something to be said for *not* pushing sexuality into the archetypal 'basement' with some devils and fears and dark imaginings, after all.

Blessed be. :)

You know what continually makes me sit up and be proud of us as a community of Pagans on the world wide web? We are so passionate about what we believe...we fight amungst each other if only to be heard...but when the smoke clears and voices are quiet and we all sit back to catch our breath...

We can all reach for a pint and drink and be merry together!! THATS what I love about this community! You all are AWESOME!

Ode to the Stillness Within
I am Strength
I am Tenderness
I am Passion
I am Patience
I am Rage
I am Peace
I am Charity
I am Pride
I am Beauty
I am Terror
I am Serinity
I am the Wild Wind
I am Everything
I am Nothing at all
I am exactly what I need me, to be.

Its not much, but it helps me get through the tough days. An origional composition. Simple, I am no artist, but I think it worked well here.

Peace out stranger friends.
Linda

Nice article! Very progressive and caring.

Athena:

You also forgot to add Christianity to that list of made up religions

Yes, modern-day Neo-Paganism was "made up" - if you call pulling together folk wisdom, Masonic rituals, 19th Century occultism, and significant archeological works in the mid-20th Century into one set of beliefs "making something up". Because that's what Gerald Gardner, Doreen Valiente, etc. did back in 1940's and 50's England. As for "made up" religions, I refer you to Scientology, which was made up as a result of a bar bet between Robert Heinlein and L. Ron Hubbard.

Although I don't agree with everything Starhawk writes, her command of language is beautiful-- and in this piece, at least, she's spot-on. And bravo to her and to everyone in the comments who understood the distinction between sex and love. Love doesn't require sex to express it. Gay couples don't want the right of marriage simply to facilitate sex (or more sex!) They want it because-- like a ring or a smile or a dozen roses-- it is an expression of commitment and love.

To move off that ninth cloud for a moment. Every time I see someone try to charge that Paganism is invalid because it is "made up" or "masquerading as an ancient tradition"*** I simply have to laugh. Firstly, ALL religions consist of older tradition and modern interpretation, patched together however we please. How much of Christian (and Catholic in particular) doctrine is actually found in the New Testament? Precious little-- there's no "church" of any kind outlined in those pages. Just the same with the pagan paths. My ancestors did not have the Rede or or the pentacle, but they did have the Dadga and the Morrigu.
Secondly, very few pagans will try to claim that this is otherwise. By the very nature of our beliefs we tend to be a group interested in history, and any one of us with more than half a brain knows that the "prehistoric universal Earth Goddess religion" is a pleasant fiction but not much more. THAT SAID. There is no reason in the world why we should not defend our faith. And we will.

Blessed be.

***I am not quoting anyone on this board. The quotes are mine, done for emphasis, and for sarcasm. Please lower your rifles now.

Hate is such a sad thing, specially when someone THINKS they are doing the right thing. Someday many " self described" Christians are going to stand in judgement, he's gonna shake his head and say " what was it about love thy neightbor that you didnt understand?" I live the way I wish to be treated, loving people in general, not hating due to a color, religion, or creed, and thanking daily my earth for her love and support, so many people wake in the morning full of stress, hate , anger, depressed about what is ahead of them this day, You dont really see that in Pagans. We take a job that means something, not just one that makes the most money their is, we do for others not because it will get us soemthing, but because it is right. We stand up for our beliefs, but respectfully and with firm kindness not hate. And we love, unconditionally, I have friends who are gay, bi and transgendered.
I just think of them as my friends.....
Blessings all. Jen

---There's nothing inherently wrong about making up your own religion---

Like EVERY religion?
Idiot!

It's not any ones job to tell people how to run their personal lives. Be homosexual if thats what you feel is right, be headrosexual,or both just use safe sex. homosexuality has nothing to do with Bestiality, Pedophilia, Necrophilia, or any other abusive behavior. homosexuals are not all predators. there are just as many rapes by headrosexuals as there are by homosexuals. So get the dam chip off your shoulder people. no religion has the right to demand we change our personalities to fit rigid cult minded thinking. there are a lot of good people out there from many different religions why do all the ignorant fools have to be the loudest voices. hate is not a family value, love your neighbor! or at least leave him in peace
so mote it be

Tad,

I did not know there was a name for the way I felt... I was 13 when I stopped going to Church, that was in 1961. The first real book that I read about any Witchy thing was Diary of a Witch by Sybil Leek, and it was not a how to book. I still remember the quote by Abraham Lincoln in it...
"I do the very best i know how. If the end brings me out alright, what is said against me won't amount to anything. If the end brings me out wrong, ten angels swearing I was right would make no difference."

I had years of having a hole in me that needed filling with something I was not getting with mainstream religions..I Know because I sought there. I thought something was wrong with me...

But I found what I needed...and I found a teacher. I found what I was...what I needed to be a whole person.I was home...blessedly, joyfully home.

We are not converted, we are seekers that find. And back when I got started, there were no books...no walking into a book store and finding shelves of "Witch" books. No shoppes with candles, herbs and all those fun things, no internet to chat with those other Witches...there was nothing. You were alone. That was my beginning.

Paganism is not dead...never will be, no more then energy can die. People can die, be killed, temples flattened, shrines torn down..But the connection to Spirit and nature...nope, that can not end.And there will always be those who are there to keep that connection alive and well.

I knew at the age of 8, when I would sneak down to the creek at night and pore water on a large rock in the middle of the stream...talking to the spirits of the place. I felt what others didn't, now I might have been put in a rubber room and all that would be gone now. But I wasn't, and I am terrifically happy and complete in my faith and life.

Tad, the death of Paganism is very much exaggerated. We are very much alive; from 1991 to 2000 we grew more then 1600%. We have Seminaries, charities,boys and girls orgs. we home school and have our own cemitaries...our men and women are in the military... we are Doctors, teachers, lawyers, we are bus drivers, plummers, engineers and housewives...we are in every walk of life.

True we do not practice as our Pagan foremothers and fathers did...but then neither do the Christians. But we have rather good histories and art...we have arceology and artifacts. So we do have a pretty good idea of what was practiced. And getting more info all the time...

oh and one more thing..our names...
Our names mean something to us... they are symbols of who we are, or what we strive for. I wonder if anyone would say a thing about a Nun who takes on a saints name, Like Sister Mark Luke?

Blessings,

Well, that's not exactly the source I was thinking of, Fiver, but, if I were the child of a 'quasi-stellar radio source' *and* Kismet, well, dag. That'd be something. :)

I'd have to call that 'enough to be getting on with,' really. :)

Lightly, *peace.* :)

Paganplace,
Didn't want anything - least of all a fight with you. Just pointing out that this self-proclaimed witch is not intellectually or historically honest and is in this for the cash. Peace. Good night.

P.S. Starhawk was the child of Quasar and Kismit, and born on the planet Vesper (see Steve Gerber/Marvel Comics) ;) Seriously, peace. ,,\/.(^_^)

Most of Jesus' disciples left their families to hang out as a bunch of men. It is possible, even likely, that some of them were gay. And so what? With all that is going on in this world there are more important things to concern ourselves with than who is sleeping with whom. I have no doubt that any God worthy of the name and station is delighted whenever people love each other. Considering our current state of affairs, any God would be happy when weare not killing each other!

Get a much clearer and more plausable understanding of Jesus in The Second, and Last Coming, A Movin-On Novel by Luigi Enrico Pietra d'Oro. Visit www.revolvingdoorbooks.com

What matters a name? We are given a name at birth, but how many of us would prefer another? A Pagan name, self-selected, represent who we believe ourselves to be.

What is a tradition? It is a family gathering for Thanksgiving, a Valentine given to a lover, a Christmas Eve before a fire, or a Beltaine, dancing the maypole. Who can determine which tradition is more "authentic" than the next?

What are ancient texts? The Koran? The Bible? The Dead Sea Scrolls? How do we know what is the divine word of deity? Do we believe it because someone told us so? What is truth and what is "phoney"?

Each contemporary religion has roots that can be traced to those of the past. Jesus, son of God? Is he so different than Mithras? The story of the virgin birth is found in many spiritualy-based mythos.

Spirituality, for each of us, is a very personal thing. It is our relationship with the Divine, an encounter that touches our soul, and is, perhaps, our connection to what was, and what will be. To demean others is a sad thing, but -- unfortunately -- the way of our world, it seems.

Blessings to all.

I do find it rather ironic that if your name didn't come from a manual of names-of-saints someone'll come at you with 'What's your *real* name.

I say, *what's *yours.* *

Do you even know?

Have you ever even thought about it?

Never mind had the stones to declare it?

Phffft.

"I only point out that Starhawk (a name she made up to sound spiritual)"

On this, I must call BS right off the bat, there, sport.

If she 'made it up to sound spiritual,' tell me what it means, right now.

It's really not that obscure.

"claims a tradition and a unity that simply hasn't existed for centuries."

Like what?

"Paganism is nothing more than a blanket term to describe a myriad of non-christian, long non-existent religions. Yet it has been somehow magically transformed into one ancient spirituality. This is historical B.S."

Blanket term, yes. Non-Christian, yes.

As for the rest...

Nevermind. That's what you want, isn't it?

Thanks to everyone for explaining that gay/queer thing by the way. Ever since I had a little one, my life has been pretty wrapped up in this little box I call home and we rarely stray too far from it, the world is sometimes too scarey to venture out.

But seriously, I agree with Paganplace. For the large majority of those who call ourselves Pagan, the knowledge didnt come from a book. It's just always been. I, personally, was caught in my Mother's religion growing up and I ALWAYS felt the outcast. Oh the Priests were wonderful and everyone was very kind and sincere and I grew up respecting them immensely for their ability to have faith. Because I didnt feel their faith, I admired them for their success in that dept.

When I felt alone, or felt like I needed....Something...I always turned to nature. From the time I was able to walk I was out in it. I felt it around me. I drew strength from the sky (ever feel so overwhelmed that you wanted to just breakdown, only to look up at the sky and feel just a little bit better? That little bit that gave you the strength to pick yourself up and continue on with life and be strong?)

When I found books about paganism I ate them up! I just liked to see what other people had to say. I sometimes agreed, I sometimes disagreed, I sometimes thought to myself "holy crap, what a bunch of whacko's!!" and sometimes it really hit "home". Those are the good times. The "Wow, i am not the only one who feels like this" times.

This belief doesnt come from a book. It is the most primal thing you can feel. And I embrace it!

I have found my faith, like the priests and nuns I so admired as a child. And now, they smile at me too, because I have Faith. We dont believe the same things, but even they can tell a peaceful soul when they see it. And that's what matters!

Peace out stranger friends.
Linda
ld_wolverine@yahoo.ca if you wish to talk.

Do you intentionally misread my posts? I deplore the multiple genocides which wiped out paganism, yet somehow a warmonger's shoes fit my feet. WTF?

I only point out that Starhawk (a name she made up to sound spiritual) claims a tradition and a unity that simply hasn't existed for centuries. Paganism is nothing more than a blanket term to describe a myriad of non-christian, long non-existent religions. Yet it has been somehow magically transformed into one ancient spirituality. This is historical B.S.

Why the importance of books? Because how else did Starhawk learn of this ancient spirituality? Ancient texts? Well, of course those aren't necessary, she talks to the Goddess. How do we know this? Her name is Starhawk, and she says so.

Perhaps the tenets of neo-Paganism are the true path... yet I doubt that true "spirituality" can be found amongst the religion for profit crowd. Perhaps I'm being unfair, it's not like she tries to insert a sales pitch for one of her books into every message (oops, yes, she does). She could have just as easily changed her name to Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Orel Roberts, or Ted Haggard and sold as many books.

AGAIN, I have no problem with those trying to make up their own religion, only those that claim the mantle of antiquity when they've obviously made up the vast majority of their tenets in the past four decades. It's not that I have some need for "authority," only that I'm able to recognize phony sources when I see them.

Sorry for the hostile tone, but you started it. WTF?

"Wow, I was only pointing out how pagan (defined as non-christian) religion was wiped out - not advocating it. Now I'm about war and have some problem with love?"

If the shoe fits....

"Sorry, you are probably not a remnant - you just read a book somewhere and found it appealing. No problem with that, but there is no tradition, and little, if any, authority for the book"

Book? Authority? Sorry, look at someone else's world, if that's what you want.

Frankly, I do think that the most beautiful thing about Paganism is that we *have* no book, no creed, ....no 'conversion'. Just what's been often described as 'homecoming.'

Homecoming. No questions, no demands, just *home.*

People who believe that it's not a fallacy to make an argument from antiquity say:

"You made this up!"

Not so.

Maybe someone can say someone did at one point in history, but, I can tell you true, that just ain't the important part, anyway. You exaggerate the importance of books.

I didn't have any fricking books.

What you think is with 'books?'

God is an imaginary friend for adults!

Paganplace,
Wow, I was only pointing out how pagan (defined as non-christian) religion was wiped out - not advocating it. Now I'm about war and have some problem with love?
Sorry, you are probably not a remnant - you just read a book somewhere and found it appealing. No problem with that, but there is no tradition, and little, if any, authority for the book - whichever one it was - only extremely vague references to religions which haven't existed since before Starhawk's greatgreatgreatgreat(you get the idea)grandmother was born. As I said above, making up your own religion is fine, but at least have some honesty about it and stop pretending you have some divine knowledge from a source you couldn't possibly have known.

Anyway, anyone noticed yet how when Pagans talk about love, it takes, let's see... About ten minutes before the 'War' imagery starts coming up?

Not to reduce an argument to three letters, but,

WTF?

Care to talk to 'a few remnants,' Fiver?

I'm just not feeling that 'wiped out' yet.

Bring the artillery. Cause rhetorically, I see a lotta blanks being shot. :)

Oh, come on "Starhawk." What's with the "we pagans" and "traditionally"? There is no pagan tradition; christianity and its swords (cannons, smallpox, etc.) effectively wiped paganism out (aside from very few remnants). There's nothing inherently wrong about making up your own religion, but at least be honest about it. Your claiming the mantle of paganism is the same as your claiming the mantle of "Starhawk" - you made it up yourself.

Oh, yeah, that whole 'command of grammar' thing.

Come on, little deceiver, tell of us of your so-big 'Truth' that you use such a 'clever' tactic.

Pretty sure Starhawk would have noticed that Xena and Hercules were made by Christians who treated the Gods as petty supervillains, but Heven and Hell as objectively real.

But you didn't watch, did you, sport?

Too busy listening to whatever told you it was justified to *lie* about *who you were.*

Ffft.

Why am I guessing that wasn't Starhawk?

I really do speak for all people in San Francisco. As I said in my post, all people were happy, even the homeless down-trodden bums that haven't seen or heard a news broadcast in several years. But, as I said, I speak for everyone, so I'm sure they were happy too when the mayor decided he was above state law when he decided to make a name for himself by ordering the registration of gay "unions". I forgot to mention that the happiest person of all of Xena, Warrior Princess.

"Now sex is a physical action between two physical beings."

Aww, come on, anyone who thinks that just ain't doing it right. :)

"A NATION OBSESSED WITH SEX IN EVERYTHING AND CALLING IT HUMAN LOVE IS GOING NOWHERE BUT TO DECAY."

By that definition, yes.

Believe it or not, 'we Pagans' don't live by that definition or even a denial of that definition.

As I said in another post, it takes a pretty damn repressed mindset to see sex where it ain't. Many things are sold by the notion that 'if you can't have the sex, you can have the product we associate with sex while we also sell you on the idea that society is degenerate, based on what the same people who tell you that are selling you by sexualizing consumer goods.

This doesn't mean sex is bad.

Just means someone stole it.

Beauty of it is they may as well steal the wind.

Peter Jackson
ON FAITH March 1, 2007
The Goddess Blesses All Forms of Love
Let's get down to brass tacks. In evolution first came the fish, then the crocodile-like animals with long spines, then the mammals with developed emotions, then mankind with the big brain which was shared by action, behavior and emotion, love, and mysticism, and intellect, thoughts.

This three-fold division of a person is very old and was often called - head,, heart, and body or similar words. Each of these divisions can be used for communicating, remembering, and reasoning, and often all together, in a situation, in an experience.

In daily life we use emotions, feelings, and behavior - body language - to communicate and express ourself.

The above article on .... The Goddess Blesses All Forms of Love ..... seems to emphasize only one ability i.e. sex, love.

Now sex is a physical action between two physical beings.

Human love is a human expression between two human personalities: I.E. mother and child, romantic love between two lovers.

Mystic love is the most highly developed and most powerful and is a relationship between a human being and his God or eternity.

Sex is a strong, natural, physical, emotion that is frequently seeking attention and requiring little training or encouragement.

While human love and Spiritual love require much effort, much education and development and regular exercise because they are essential to a full life and require hard work.

A great nation and a great person can only
be built with great development of human love, values, and the Spirit.

Science by itself can not build a great free equal, socially progressive, democratic, nation of human beings.

A NATION OBSESSED WITH SEX IN EVERYTHING AND CALLING IT HUMAN LOVE IS GOING NOWHERE BUT TO DECAY.
By pjackson82

"Mmm. This once I shall tell you. But go back and search for it. Sick cultures show a complex of symptoms which you have named: But a *dying* culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness: Bad manners: A lack of consideration for others in minor matters.... ....This symptom is especially serious in that an individual displaying it never thinks of it as a sign of ill health but as proof of his/her strength. Look for it." ---Robert Heinlein

The times, they are a changin'. Remember that next time someone brings up the 'You're like a sheep-*ahem* er.' argument against civil justice.

And, might I add, that kind of question can only come from a religion that treats some really horrible things as morally-equivalent to having sex before the big party.

Tad,

The line is drawn at consenting human adults. Neither a child, animal nor corpse can consent to an adult relationship.

Is that a clear enough line for you?

Comparing a pedophilic, bestial or necrophilic relationship to a gay or lesbian relationship is beyond comparing apples to oranges... it's like comparing apples to turnips--it's not even fruit, anymore.

OK, Tad. Just because some people have a religious belief that not persecuting same-sex love is tantamount to promoting the practice of their own darkest imaginations doesn't mean that these are actually the same things.

Goddess is said to say, All acts of love and pleasure are *My* rituals, (and, as Starhawk's had to point out, she didn't 'say' Love And/or Pleasure.)

Bestiality, well, I guess I just haven't met an emu that was that much of a charmer, what can I say? Pedophilia's only 'love' in the narcissistic minds of pedophiles, cause it demonstrably does harm. Necrophilia? What?

Last I heard, love had this certain interactive component to it, I dunno. Call me a flaky Pagan or something.

Gimme a *break.* Gods.

Tad-

Did you really read Starhawk's post?

"What we don’t welcome: coercion, repression, shame, guilt, abuse, power imbalances, sexuality as an arena of violence, power-over or cruelty."

That should cover your questions.

Easy, there, Anonymous.

Everybody knows, hon. I was there, too. This is just the dealing-with-it. Sanctimonious homophobia is a way of hiding from and displacing what comes... from sanctimonious homophobia. And the guilt of the fact that everybody knows.

They always knew. But they were taught how to not face it. Taught that the universe would fall apart if they did.

A lot of pederasts and pedophiles in the churches have learned that inculcating homophobia is the best way to ensure the silence of the victims, and then the churches periodically 'Purge the gays' in order to seem like they're doing something, while of course this only makes everything worse.

Pedophiles aren't after the victims by sex, but because they're *children.* I think it's simply a matter of the same arrested development that can lead to religiosity.

When Franco tried to so dismissively say, 'In the Name Of 'Love,'' I couldn't help but think of the U2 song.

I know the anger well. Heck, I know the anger of victims coming to me to get things off their chest and begging me not to say anything, for fear of seeming *gay* at tender young ages, (and no one believing me when I talked, anyway, ...until said priest was caught many years later and then they were like, 'Ah, so you're queer because there was this pedophile priest around,')

But, Anonymous, this is about the light of day, in a lot of ways. It can be harsh, and people will squint. This is about a betrayal of trust so profound that people who averted their eyes in shame and cowardice will not make it easy if they can continue to do so.

This is one of those places where I think it's OK to have a little *faith in the Lady.* For me, she was never like, 'Look, I'm a F'n Goddess,' but... She was always there.

And certain SOB's can't say a thing about it. Never could.

That guy who thinks hurting people will make something go away is *not free* and he's trying to make *that* OK by hurting others.

He has nothing to say to you. Take the gifts.

Capiche?

All orientations? What about Bestiality? Pedophilia? Necrophilia? Does the Goddess bless these kinds of love? Can any lines be drawn?

He say
she say
thay say
Whatever you believe, you must accept all scriptures as the word of god. Not just what is conveinent to you.
Otherwise, you have a serious problem.

"The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their asin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves."

Isaiah 3,9

Why do any of you Christina/Muslim FREAKS care about who sleeps with whom?

What does it matter!!??

What has it to do with you!?

You knuckle-dragging hypocrites should care more about your countless child raping Priests and Bishops (Hetro as well as Gay) and the other 'holy men' who cover their actions up!
You should care about the children forced into marriages to elderly men they have never met!

YOU sanctimonious delusionists need to to sort your own 'holy' houses out first before you criticize others for doing no harm to anyone!

And, you know, what Starhawk said about San Fransisco, I noticed in Boston on the first day of same-sex marriages. There were people convinced that the world was ending, but they were shown up to be very few. It seemed the *city* was happy.

Personally, I found it had more effect on me than I expected, considering my relationship wasn't in a 'marriage' sort of place at the time.

But it took off a weight of sadness and, just... weight, that maybe we'd all gotten so used to that we couldn't identify it. I felt I just *had* to go on down to the local courthouse and just join in the well-wishers that turned up.

Now, I happen to be bisexual, (And we don't choose who we fall in love with any more than anyone else does: it just so happens that some people and institutions drop the orientation and move on to you 'living in sin' if you happen to be with a man,) ..but, Gods. I felt it. NOt just a certain *dignity,* but *joy.*

I'm in a happy queer partnership of has-it-really-been-seven years, but I think in a place where I were truly free to marry anyone I wanted, it'd *dignify* a 'straight' marriage, too... no nagging doubts about 'am I doing this for the straight privilege.'

And if you feel threatened by that, Franco, to the extent you must put Love in quotes, well, I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark here about who needs counseling and say it ain't Starhawk.

Yay, Starhawk! :)

(Hey, Tim, looks like someone's been reading us. I told you. :) )

And, Linda, 'Queer,' (when used by self-identified queer people,) is essentially an all-inclusive term that is used to refer to, well, basically, anyone subject to the broad spectrum of gender/homophobia, (except I think it hurts straights as much as anyone: they live in the fear and repression, too: they're just socially-sanctioned in the sex they have.)

Queer's a good word for expressing solidarity and including people who don't quite fit the tidier definitions: it's one of those reclaimed slur words that is more OK for queer folks to use than 'non-queers.' As long as it's used respectfully , no harm, no foul. :)

'Gay,' you see, usually refers to the strictly-homosexual, particularly men.

Linda:

Ok, I think it goes like this......Gay=can still pass for straight.
Queer=Jack from Will&Grace

I liked this article. Starhawk is always so articulate that even the most touchy of subjects seems to flow as easily from her pen/keyboard as water from a river.

I am, admittedly, more repressed then the typical pagan but it is an issue which is always being worked on. I have one question of the threaders out there though. Twice in this article she makes reference to "gay/queer" people. I always thought they were the same. What is the difference? Can someone enlighten me?

Thanks everybody!

A distinctly positive note to begin the day!

Instead of the hate, pain, despair and generaly chaos the news has become this is a true blessing!

The clear, and also emotional context is something we need more of!

Sharing the joys of all Pagan beliefs so they outshine the hate and fear of the ignorant!

Thank you Starhawk. Though I am not a follower of your tradition I applaud your efforts to share the beliefs with the world.

Blessed Be!

I have seen evidence that Franco is a Christian. Just read his posts. That's all the evidence anyone needs. I am not saying he speaks for all Christians, just that he speaks like some that rely heavily on a very outdated and morally questionable book.

Being a Pagan myself I can say for certain that NOT ONLY "The Goddess blesses all forms of love" but the God as well.

This is not the god of the monotheistic religions but the masculine pole of divinity, just as the Goddess is the feminine pole of divinity. One can not create without the other.

I know that Reclaming is more Goddess centered in thier beliefs but they do not speak for all Pagans. It is important to remember this because not all "Traditions" are as Goddess-centric as Reclaiming. There are those of us who strive for a balance between the two poles.

BB

W. Anderson

Franco,

I didn't say or imply that you are Spanish.

I said "...you're still carrying on in these threads LIKE YOUR SPANISH NAMESAKE". It's clear that I said it's the murderous Generalissimo Franco, not you, who is Spanish.

You misread what I wrote. I think you also misread the world. As for your being a Christian, I've seen no evidence of that in these threads.

What a wonderful, beautiful devotional reading for this morning! After reading the endless litany of pain and anger that passes for the morning news, this was a breath of fresh, clean air. Thank you. :)

Norrie Hoyt: Your conclusions regarding me are erroneus. I am Italian, born in Italy, and a Christian. Call me an homophobe; anyone who espouses that anything goes, in the name of "love" needs counseling. No go and make more false assumptions about me.

I can't help but think that if Jesus were to come back he would probably rather hang with the Wiccans than the Christians. They seem to have a lot more in common.

I certainly don't ascribe to any of your spiritual beliefs, but I fully agree with your moral stance. We could use more Pagans in this country!

Franco,

I see you're still carrying on in these threads like your Spanish namesake!

Regards.

After reading all the hate masquerading as "love" for the "sinner" on the other threads, your post is like a breath of clean mountain air. Thank you, Lady.

Starhawk, you need counseling!