Conditions for Forgiveness

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Thanks to Starhawk for laying out the conditions of forgiveness. What bothers me about it is the sequential nature. I am not going to allow the person who wronged me to set the pace for my letting go of my resentment. I may not let her know that I have done so until she has gone through the procedure but I am certainly not going to allow her to injure me further through her unwillingness or inability to come to terms with the harm her actions have done me. I will let go of my resentment in my own good time.

I also will not have her saying that now that she has done the work, I owe her forgiveness. My answer here would be "in time". If this is a case where there is to be a continuing relationship, then it will not be fully restored until the person who has done the injury has forgiven herself.

On paganism and religion, I know at least one person who claims that because he is a pagan he does not have to forgive. I don't think anyone has to forgive. I have one instance where being in a state of non-forgiveness of someone is very useful, because it reminds me that they are likely to perform actions stemming from the same mindset that caused the offense. It keeps me on my guard to help me prevent them from harming me or other. This is not a soul-consuming resentment, just a little reminder to be aware when dealing with this person.

m731k

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E Favorite:

You have hit the nail on the head. I think a lot of us pagans wouldn't necesarily have so many issues with Christians if they realized that we want many of the same things they do and work towards such, and that there are many commonalities among us. We are not frivolous about our faith, although we have a lot of fun, and are neither a cult nor evil. We seek to do no harm, in all workings. Unfortunately there are fundamentalist Pagans out there, just as with any religion. (what does a fundamentalist pagan look like? I wouldn't even know, but I'm told they're out there.) It's sometimes hard to promote understanding amongst people who feel that just because we see the world differently we have no right to exist. There is still a lot of people, myself included, who cannot be too outspoken about their beliefs because of the dangers of real harrassment and discrimination.

I, for one, have more of a problem with the folks who shout about how good a Christian they are and how I'm going to burn for all eternity rather than those just as steadfast in their belief in Jesus who quietly make taking care of others a priority in their lives.

What I feel coming through these posts from witches is kindness, peace and acceptance - things don’t see too often among the Christians posting here.

They may start out kindly enough, but before long they're gleefully telling you how benighted you are for not accepting Christ and warning you of the terrors of hell that await you. Not all Christians are like this, but too many, I think, considering Jesus' beautiful message of love.

Frank,
Unlike some religions, each member of Wicca is to take personal responcibility on their actions. We have principles of ethics...we do not have gospel of laws laid down such as the three desert religions have. Such as:
- It must be remembered that thoughts and intent put forth will be strong in other ares of your life . . . you will bring into creation, that which had been sent forth. Thus one should exercise discipline, for "as ye do plant, so shall ye harvest."
-Refrain from speaking ill of others, for not all truths of the matter may be known.
- Pass not unverified words about another, for hearsay is, in large part, a thing of falsehoods.
- Be thou honest with others, and have them know that honesty is likewise expected of them.
-The fury of the moment plays folly with the truth; to keep one's head is a virtue.
-Contemplate always the consequences of thine acts upon others. Strive not to harm.
-Courage and honor endure forever. Their echoes remain when the mountains have crumbled to dust.
~~ ~~
We have many principles, Ordains and Charges that we strive to live by...
I have worked for two years on forgiveing someone. I am almost there...and when I am I shall communicate that forgivness...it must come from my heart as well as my mouth.

But like Srtarhawk says...we are Wiccan, not all Wiccans would have the same exact laws...There are many Pagan religions...Starhawk can only speak for her tradition. I also am Wiccan but Starhawk and I have difference trads, though we share the core basics.

As far as being a cult..well we do not have anyone standing in front of us telling us how to live or to give money...we do not have anyone telling us how to be right with our Gods. That is not the way of our religion. We have no hell and no devil...and our heven is not like the Christian heaven (though to us it is better).

As far as being rude, now that you have all tied up. So how do you bear witness to your religion,by being rude and a bigot? if so you are doing well.

Frank,

Did you read the whole post? Or did you read the first sentence and think that was enough to base your response on?

you dont know if there is a position on this? your here on this board to give us your religions position on it. well at least your honest to let us know that there is not a position on forgiveness in your religion. is it a religion? or a cult, or a fad, or what is it?

Terra:

Thank you for that informed response. I might have to look that up a little more.

PriveR,
email me at yahoo and I'll give you my address

Lep-
I've only been taking lessons for two years after not singing at all for five so I'm sort of building back up again. But I'm planning for my first recital somewhere towards the end of the year. If I can figure out how to record it somehow you're welcome to it! It's weird for me to listen to my own voice on tape.

PriveR,

Oh, how I wish I could sing opera! I love music, but my vocal range is slightly narrower than Leonard Cohen's. (Don't get me wrong - I adore Cohen, and find his smoky voice absolutely intoxicating, but it's not because of vocal gymnastics). Any chance I could get you to burn me a cd of one of your performances?

.... and what about the difference between auras -negative aura/vibes and positive aura/vibes one sense in people? Terra, Wiccan, Russell D and others here definitely have positive auras/vibes. Or, is it charisma? Charismatic leaders are sometimes demogogues too. Especially those with magnetic auras or charisma, say, Hitler, a vegetarian and animal lover so it seems. Or was it the sheer force of his personality? I can never tell.

Great article Starhawk. Always a pleasure to read any piece by you.

Merry meet everyone! Math Beltaine.

Wiccan: It is good to see you again! It's sorta scary peeking out of the broom closet, but at least there is a place that we can go without too much evangelizing. A couple of people at work know but are under strict instruction to not say anything to others because I don't know what if any fallout that would cause.

I'm finding out that some people don't really want to have their own views really questioned. They will only debate as long as they feel that their point of view is common among all people. The only real issue I have is with those who insist that truth is only found in one book and refuse to acknowledge the many other ways of knowing that are out there.

My problem is once I get going, I can't stop.

Silvlaro: I am a short drive away from the Lehigh valley in Eastern PA. Rumor has it one of the last witches to live here got run out of town. So right now my husband and I are very low-key. We take piano lessons from someone who has given herself away as pretty fundamentalist who refused to go near a neighbor who simply had a gargoyle near their front door. Imagine what she would do if she knew she had a couple of witches in her class for three years! The witch that I have gotten to know in the area up there actually used to live in Ohio and studied with Laurie Cabot in Salem. Maybe your paths have crossed before?

I have learned so much from you all as well. Even though I'm somewhat new to posting, I've been following this site from day one. It's amazing the commonalities that people share without knowing it.

Lepidopteryx: My path is more of a bardic shamanic one. I am studying the Celts and bardic lore, although I need a lot more information, particularly in the mythology area. I am in training to be a professional opera singer right now, and my voice teacher teaches in a very shamanic manner even though she appears to be Roman Catholic. It's very funny. Thanks to our dear witch friend in PA, I now teach people how to use their voices properly so that they don't hurt them and how to reconnect to and bring out the inner Awen. I'm finding out the more I experience, the more I have to learn. I feel like I'm just playing catch-up now.

I grew up Jewish, on my mother's side at least, with plenty of parental guilt. 'Sunday school' lasted till 5th grade when my best friend decided she didn't want to go anymore and I decided if she wasn't, why should I? None of the stories made any sense to me. The services were REALLY long, in Hebrew and seemed to come out of a book that really didn't have much to do with me. My father was Roman Catholic, at least in name, and claimed that he wasn't Christian. I don't get that to this day. The more I learned about Christianity and its history and the influence of the church that continues even now, I can't help like feeling I somehow dodged a theological bullet. I would imagine it's a lot harder to go from a Christian perspective, especially with the fire and brimstone bits than a lapsed Jewish one.

I remember being 10 years old talking with my little sister who was just a baby then all night long one night and being so excited to see the sun rise i started jumping up and down on my bed yelling 'it's a new day!' My college was situated in a gorgeous mountain town and used to have the most spectacular thunderstorms that never lasted too long but produced scenes and rainbows that were so brilliant I would cry. In college the other closest thing I had to a religious experience was singing the Messiah with a director who insisted on absolute technical perfection combined with extreme emotional involvement in the music. But it was taking in a very sick but dear friend, who is himself a powerful Bard and shaman, when his now ex-wife left him to die, that really changed everything for me. He gave me the key. The amazing community my husband and I discovered at Samhain last year kicked the door open and are forcing me to develop a practice for myself and start walking the pagan path. It's a work in progress, but I'm loving every minute of it.

I'm just debating whether or not to tell my family about it. They want to know what I'm doing with my time, and I really want to tell them, but I don't know what they'll do.

Russell- The energies you sense are very real. People of all stripes seem to respond to them even if they don't know why. I always looked for and responded automatically to people who had an aura of creativity around them, although I didn't know how I knew that or why I did. I literally had a "dead zone" moment the first time I saw GW Bush on TV. I saw his face once- and knew this guy was going to be BAD news. Even I didn't know HOW bad, but Wiccan is familiar with my rant on that and could fill you in. :) After a couple days of working with visualizations with a drum I started to see auras, albeit without color around myself and everything around me. For me it's not consistent yet, but it's fascinating to me.

Russell,

The Aura that you are talking about is your energy. When someone you do not know well gets too close to you,how do you feel? Are they in YOUR space?

Kirlian photography

http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/k/kirlian_photography.html
---------------------------------------------

A photographic process that captures the auras or biofields of persons or objects within the photograph. The technique involves the photographing of subjects in the pressence of a high-frequency, high-voltage, low-amperage-electrical field, which display glowing, multicolored emanations known as auras or biofields.

The process of Kirlian photography is named after Seymon Kirlian, an amateur inventor and electrician of Krasnodar, Russia, who pioneered the first efforts on the process in the early 1940s. Even thought the process has produced results it still is controversial.

There seems to be no evidence that Kirlian photography is a paranormal phenomenon. Some experimenters think it reveals a physical form of psychic energy. Another theory is that it reveals the etheric body, one of the layers of the aura thought to permeate all animate objects. The understanding of this latter aspect of the process gives rise to the prospects of beneficial benefits of gaining significant insights in medicine, psychology, psychic healing, psi, and dowsing. Critics repudiate the process by saying that it shows nothing more that than electricity being discharged which can be produced under certain conditions.

Experiments in photographing objects in electrical fields, prior to Kirlian, was called "electrography" or "electrographic photography." Little value was seen in the process, so scant attention was given to it. Electrographic photographs were exhibited as early as 1898 by the Russian Yakov Narkevich Yokdo (also given as Todko. Research in the fields was published by a Czech, B. Narvratil, also in the early 1900s. The published evidence of photographs of leaves coronas was presents by two Czechs, S. Pratt and J. Schlemmer, in 1939.

The initial Kirlian experiments were simple. In his first experiment Kirlian just photographed his hand, noting a strange orange glow radiating from the fingertips. His wife Valentina was a biologist, and together they photographed both animate and inanimate objects. Over the years, they refined their equipment and graduated from back and white to colored photography.

The principle of Kirlian photography, as well as all electrography, is the corona discharge phenomenon, that takes place when an electrically grounded object discharges sparks between itself and an electrode generating the electrical field. When these sparks are captured on film they give the appearance of coronas of light. These discharges can be affected by temperature, moisture, pressure, or other environmental factors. Several Kirlian techniques have been developed, but the basic ones generally employ a Tesla coil connected to a metal plate. The process is similar to the one which occurs in nature, when electrical conditions in the atmosphere produce luminescences, auras, such as St. Elmo's fire.

Kirlian's work mainly gained attention in the west during the 1960. Its reception was mixed. However, scientist met on the process at Alma Ata in 1966. Biophysicist Viktor Adamenko theorized that the energy field was the "cold emission of electrons," and the patterns they formed might suggest new information concerning the life processes of animate objects. One finding of Adamenko and other Soviet scientists was that the biological energies of human beings were brightest at 700 points on the body which concurs with Chinese acupuncture.

There is evidence that Kirlan photographs do give indications of the health and emotional changes in living things by changes in the brightness, color, and patterns of light. At the University of California Center for Health Sciences, a plant's leaf showed changes when being approached by a human hand and pricked. Even when part of the leaf was cut off, the glowing portion of the amputated portion still appeared on film.

Other researchers have found that changes in the emotional conditions of humans can be detected by changes in the brightness, color and formation patterns in the photographs. When psychic healers and the psychokinetic metal-bender Uri Geller were photographed flares of light were seen streaming from their fingertips as they performed their respective activities.

Many Kirlain enthusiasts declare that the leaf phenomenon is evidence for the existence of an etheric body. But, critics state the phenomenon completely disproves Kirlin photography. The latter contention is that "If the method truly photographed a biofield, then the aura should disappear when an organism dies. The effect is produced solely by a high-voltage electric field breakdown of air molecules between two condenser plates."

Supporters of Kirlain photography do, however, foresee its applications in diagnostic medicine. It has been used in the detection of cancer with only a sporadic success rate. Some envision that it will eventually be connected to computerized tomography (CT) scanners (advanced versions of axial tomography or CAT scanners, which utilize a thin beam of X-rays to photograph an object from 360 degrees) and magnetic resonance imaging(MRI). This latter method uses no X-rays, but employs magnetic fields to produce images of body cells and water in tissues.

Kirlain photography has been used by the Soviets in sports psychology to access an athlete's metabolic process and fitness. A.G.H.
-----
I have had my picture taken by a Kirlain Machine...I was surrounded by colors, mainly blues and purples. It was interesting to see that all the pictures were different each other.. the shadings and layers were different.

Russell there are those who can see the aura...you may have that talent.

Blessings,
terra

Russell D.-

I know what you mean by the "energy". I feel it from animals and plants, too. I nodded in agreement when Lepidopteryx told of grieving when the fig tree died; family history has it that at the age of four I chewed my father out when he tried to put three sickly-looking pepper plants on the compost heap. To teach me a summary lesson he gave me the plants and told me if each didn't produce at least one pepper it would be my butt (this being back in the days when parents had no compunction about spanking you when they felt you needed it). My peppers produced just as much as his! (And saved my butt!) :-)

To all that have made such nice comments...thank you. I think this forum has the ability to be the best of it's kind on the net. There is a chance for those who really want to, to gain knowledge about thoughts and views that are of a religious nature, from a different prospective.

We can really share information to bring a better understanding. I have always believed that even if one mind is opened, if one person can see the commonalities, rather then what are differences...then it all is a success.

I also would like to see another Wiccan on the panel...I would also like to see panelists from other Pagan religions. There are more then Wiccans. Paganism is as diverse as any other religion, in fact they are more diverse then most.

It would be wonderful to have someone like Selena Fox, a leader of 54000 Pagans. It also would be nice to have guest panelists like some of our writers. We are a very young religion in many ways....and very ancient in others, we have much to say and to share. This forum could be a way to open the window to those people who have so much good to add to the conversation.

I am not a scholar, I just teach what our religion is...and help where I can to guide folks where they want to go. I think shareing knowledge and understanding is the only way to bring not just tolerance ( I hate that word), but acceptance
of those who are following their spirit onto a path less trod.

Blessings,
terra

*waving, while greetings are being exchanged*

And Beltane blessings, too. :)

And, Terra, I find it can just be the nature of the Internet to... amplify disagreements, just as a text-based sort of thing in general, but also on lists and boards in particular.

It's well-suited to debate, ...you can exhaust any point you like, ...but keeping perspective or even keeping a debate 'on track' is another matter.

A room full of people nodding agreement is a lot spammier here than in real life, after all. Doesn't necessarily mean they're there in any given case, but at the same time, you don't see them when they are. :)

Above post is me - I keep forgetting to sign.

Russell D - "I don't really claim a religion, and I am not a big spiritual person, yet I have always had a belief in the Energy of things. I can feel it in things, and especially, I can feel it in people. Ever notice how some people seem to have a presence about them or an inner fire? I believe it boils down to that person's personal energy. Some have more, and some have less. I have been told that I have this strong energy, and I notice it in other people, such as my third child(and she's only a baby), my wife, and other people I come in contact with. This energy is what other people respond to."

I think that energy is basically what all people respond to, whether or not they consider themselves "religious" or "spiritual." I believe that it is a person's life-force - call it a soul, call it a spirit, call it Leslie - the name really doesn't matter.
I wouldn't say that some people have more or less than others, because I'm not sure how one would go about quantifying it in the first place. But I can see how some people's energies would resonate more strongly with your own, causing a stronger or more harmonic vibration than others.

Wiccan, that's high praise coming from someone whose posts always show me new ways of looking at things. Thank you, my friend.

Ok, this is for everybody on this post, and hopefully any others who have an intresting perspective on things.

This may be more for you, and I'd like your opinion on it, as well as any others who would like to offer it, but I thought this might be interesting.

I don't really claim a religion, and I am not a big spiritual person, yet I have always had a belief in the Energy of things. I can feel it in things, and especially, I can feel it in people. Ever notice how some people seem to have a presence about them or an inner fire? I believe it boils down to that person's personal energy. Some have more, and some have less. I have been told that I have this strong energy, and I notice it in other people, such as my third child(and she's only a baby), my wife, and other people I come in contact with. This energy is what other people respond to. It has always fascinated me and I was just wondering what you guys thought about it. I'd love to hear all thoughts on it.

PriveR!

What a delight to see you again! I'm glad you didn't give up on this forum. Terra Gazelle, Lepidopteryx, PaganPlace, and others always have excellent posts. I've learned so much from them. Hope all is going well as you peep out of the broom closet. :-)

Lepidopteryx:

“Now I tell them that they can tell me about their faith, but only if I get equal time to tell them about mine. Unfortunately, I haven't had any takers. “

I have done this as well. One JW took me up on it. I told him the story of The Other People. He said he was going to do research on what we had discussed, I have no idea if he ever did.

Something tells me that you and I are alike in many ways lol.

PriveR

What part of PA are you from? I live in Ohio, not far from the PA boarder.

Terra

Thank you, I have had a very patient guide and teacher on this path I follow.

Silvlaro

PriveR,

It's been my experience (and again, I an only speak from my experience) that my "becoming pagan" wasn't so much a conversion as a realization. I was raised Southern Baptist, and knew long before I knew that I knew (I hope that makes sense) that Christianity just didn't fulfill my needs. I tried to make it suffice, but there were spaces in my soul that it just didn't fit.
From the time I was small, I had always felt an affinity with the livig things around me that the rest of my faimily did not share. They thought there was something wrong with me when I was 9 and went into full-blown grieving when our fig tree died. I was teh only one in my family who beleived that that fig tree had a soul. It had a personality. We had had a relationship and I missed its company. I was the only one in my family who believed that non-human animals had souls. I was in my 30's when I realized that there was a name for people like me - pagan. I had been taught as a child that pagans were satanic, evil people who engaged in human sacrfice and cannibalism and that the good Christian missionaries of old had saved many of them from eternal damnation by bringing the gospel to them, and that missionaries were still risking becoming sacrifces to save the souls fo what pagans were left in the most remote, far-flung corners of the world. Now you have a clearer idea why I was so shocked at my parents' participation in my wedding ritual.

I don't "evangelize." I live my beliefs, and hope that my actions will speak well of my faith. When people see my altar and ask what it is, I tell them. If they ask what specific objects on it are, I tell them what they are and why I have them there. When one of my cats brings home part of her kill to share with us, I thank her profusely, then take the prey into my back yard, dig a hole, cast a circle around it, ask each of the elemental spirits to bless and reclaim its body, mind, soul, and heart, and give it divine light (one of my husband's practices that I have adopted) to help it on its journey, and open the circle. The other day, one of my neighbors came by while I was kneeling beside a hole in the ground with a dish of salt, a censer with burning sandalwood, a candle, and a dish of water, and asked what I was doing. I told her I was giving a squirrel a decent pagan burial, and continued my ritual. He watched for a moment, shrugged, and went back inside.
I don't try to convert people, I just try to be a good person. And I am trying to be more tolerant of those whose faiths require them to evangelize, since they are at least tryinng to walk their talk. That comes a little harder for me, especially after having twice been physically menaced by evangelists whose literature I refused. (One grabbed me when I tried to walk past him after I had told him three times "No thank you." Another stuck his foot in my door when I said "No thank you" and tried to close the door.) For a long time after that, when I saw through the peephole that it was JW's or Mormons knocking, I would simply answer the door skyclad, and tell them they were just in time, (not saying just in time for what), which really threw them. Now I tell them that they can tell me about their faith, but only if I get equal time to tell them about mine. Unfortunately, I haven't had any takers.
But I do frequent online forums, where I can speak openly in safety.

Terra, you wrote:
"Sometimes it is like crying in the wilderness, you never know if you are read except for those who disagree."

That's exactly what I'm discovering, being relatively new to both paganism and posting anything on this forum. (or any forum, for that matter) It does help to know there are others out there who feel much as I do. Please know you're not alone. What I'm noticing too is that some of the people I try to engage in conversation have refused to answer my questions.

I'm absolutely fascinated by people's experiences that lead them to believe whatever they end up believing. But I also had to be careful to wait and not to post anything until I got out of the 'I've just discovered something absolutely amazing and must change people's minds' phase. I'm told it happens a lot in paganism after that first real understanding. I had to get used to the idea that it's okay to find wonder and imagination again in the world, and that healing is possible without running to the nearest person to share what I'm discovering. My family doesn't know yet and may not ever know, (the jury's still out, though- haven't yet decided)-so anonymity is also important. How did you make the decision to tell others in your life, if you have?

My wish is for people to see that there are more of us out there than they think, and therefore we must also be counted.

Perhaps one day we can have a little part of real public discourse. Here's hoping..

Bright blessings, Lep, Terra and all..
PriveR

PriveR,
Thank you for the kind words. Sometimes it is like crying in the wilderness, you never know if you are read except for those who disagree.

Like Lep said, keep on sending out the good vibes.
I also wish there were more then Starhawk on the panal to voice a Pagan view. Though her writing is clear, often beautiful, and very representative of a large majority of the Pagan theological view.

PriveR,I have been out spoken about my Pagan beliefs for many years. But having an outlet on the computer helps so many that have to keep their anomynity because of discrimination.

I thank On Faith for giving us this outlet, though we often must try to fit our round pegs into their square holes.

Again thanks for your kindness.

Nemaste,
terra

PriveR,

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but as for me, just keep sending positive vibrations. Know that they are received, appreciated, and reciprocated.

Namaste.

It is good to see Starhawk posting again. I was afraid she had left us when the questions were about issues having nothing really to do with paganism. Part of me wishes that pagans had more than one person representing them on this site, but the fact that Starhawk is even here at all is significant in and of itself. Her responses are always insightful and full of meaning.

Terra-

I've been following your posts since the whole site started and you have always put forth ideas that are well thought out, balanced, and have really resonated with me. Just wanted to say thanks, and how much I admire the guts of all the pagans who are starting to speak out. It's about time.

Lepidopteryx

It seems that our friend on the other thread refuses to acknowlege that the paths may be very different but the end result is the same. On the one hand it is extraordinarily frustrating, but it is forcing me to really codify my own belief system.
I only hope I have the strength and patience to continue the discussion.

I am sorry to hear about the losses suffered in Katrina. Hopefully work can be done to assist in restoring the area to what it once was. If there is anything I can do (I live in PA) please don't hesitate to ask.

Blessed be to all!
PriveR

dear starhawk,
thank you very much for writing this. i have been harmed by others and been told that i am to forgive, yet the person doing the hurting never attempted to make amends or even admit that wrong was done.
being coerced into forgiving makes closure that much more difficult to find.

thank you,
once sunny

Phoenix Amber,
Greetings...

I am glad that Katrina did not do ant property damage to you. We lost some sideing and some trees, my rose arbor went with the wind as did the roses. I had to cut my Wisteria way back, but it is back with a vengence.

We were very lucky, we just had no power for about two weeks, but did have a generator, the only thing is that with no power there is no way to get gas from a pump. Lets say we were very lucky, but it still was no walk in the park.

BR is not far from me at all, I am in Springfield, about 40 miles away. We need to get together. keirgazelle@gmail.com

Email me, I'll give you a call....

Blessings,
terra

Terra,
I'm in BR. Katrina hit us pretty hard, not because we lost any property (we didn't), but ny husband was working in New Orleans, and the school where he was teaching had 8 feet of water on campus, so we lost 2/3 of our household income.

The ID I used at PSG was Phoenix Amber, and I have since changed/refined my spirit name to Lepidopteryx - an homage to my two transformational totems - butterfly and phoenix.

RUSSELL D.:

Thank you for the kind words. I could rant, as some do… trust me I’ve been known to now and again … but I work very hard at not doing that. I believe that when you jump up and down ranting you have closed yourself to what others are saying. When that happens no one is listening to anyone and exchange of thought does not happen. I would rather exchange thoughts than throw words just to have them out there. Many people don’t realize that words are weapons, as are bombs or bullets. They may not kill but they can hurt and maim all the same. Used wisely however, they can open worlds where anything is possible.

Silvlaro

I am so glad the Post has decided to bring Starhawk on board! She is a voice of sanity in a cacaphony of useless talk that calls itself "commentary".

Starhawk, you do the Goddess proud.

lep,
Ok...I have a hint. You are from La...me too. Can I have a ID please, if you used a different one for psg?

What part of La do you live in? How was Katrina for you?

It is finances for me too as far as PSG...I can not afford to go to PSG in June then to West Virgina in Sept. for my group gathering. At the chance of gas being 4.00 a galleon, I want to gringe.

I have tried to find a place big enough near New Orleans to have my gathering in. My group would love to come here and do the Big Easy one year.

PSG is the most amazing place. Like you say, it is a family. Morning meeting, the coffee at Caffena's, afternoon and evening concerts, the hundreds of workshops, the venders...ooooh the venders! kids being watched over by everyone there. Oh, the first night candle parade!

Oh PSG I do miss it!

Maybe next time, if not this year next...we can tent side by side. Heck we can travel together and save money!

terra

Terra-
Unfortunately, I won't be able to make PSG this year either. The last several years, funds have been really tight, not to mention that my old van did really well to get me to Whole Foods and back home - there was no way she would have made it from Louisiana to PSG. So far his year, my husband has gone back to school to get his MFA, so he's only working part-time right now, I replaced the van with a really nice little used car, my teenage daughter wrecked my really nice little used car a month after she got her driver's license, and then all three of us came down with the flu, causing me to miss a week and a half of work - and it's only April!
I've only been to PSG that one time back in 2002, and my soul cries to return. It felt like a true family reunion.

Lepidopteryx,

We could be sisters...about 21 years ago I left my X, for the same reason. It was funny though I just never hated him, I internalized it. I felt really sorry for the man when he wasted so much time and energy, when he could have been the man he was meant to be.I, at first hated myself for allowing him to do that to me. But then one morning I woke up and I was really happy. Then I did not want anything to burst my bubbles of freedom, so I let my inner pain go. I am happily married now to a man that allows me to fulfill all my possibilities. I am happy...and I truly believe that the Law of Return works.

Lep, I will again miss PSG...I am hopeful though that I will make it with some members of my group next year. How will I know you? What is your PSG ID? I have met so many folks there and I miss them all. PSG is amazing...

I am going to a group gathering this year, it is an annual gathering of my group. We go to a different place each year...this year West Virgina, on top of a Mountain, for a week in the fall. It is awesome and something I will not miss again. So I will go to PSG if only my group chooses to go also. The wise and scholarly Silarvo is in my group, my Maiden.

I think some times that it is harder to forgive our selves then those others. Did we use up part of our lives believeing some one not worthy of us? Did we allow ourselves to be hurt? Were we foolish? Well...if we forgive ourselves and make our lives as happy as possible, living with joy...then it matters not what those other people are doing. As long as they are not hurting others, you can not make anyone feel sorry for what they do to you.

If the people that hurt you and wants forgivenss it is easier to forgive them and really be free, if you have forgiven yourself.

Goddess Bless,
terra

Silvlaro,
Ahh very good grasshopper... ; )

Terra

Terra: "For me, practising forgiveness (I don't know if I ever will perfect it) is a form of self-love. It has nothing to do with the other. It has nothing to do with whether I choose to continue a relationship of any kind with the offender. It has everything to do with loving myself enough to focus on the blessings, light and love that surround me even when I am so angry I cannot see them. This is a part of Divine Love expressing itself in me."

I think you may have just shown me the key I need to take the next step in my forgiveness/healing efforts. Thank you, sister.

Namaste.

"Unless these four conditions have been met, forgiveness can be premature and become a form of collusion."

I think this is an important point, and often the person demanding the 'collusion' is the person suffering the harm.

My opinion is that forgiveness is a necessity for healing as you cannot maintain a state of complete health while holding on to anger, resentment and hate. But then what is complete health? Does anyone have the right to claim it?

I have been hurt, badly, myself. I still find it difficult to avoid dwelling on those occasions and people and "re-living" them, saying what I should have said, or taking action that I didn't and so on. What do I gain from feeding anger? An energy system 'contaminated' with blocks and knots. Does this resolve the situation? No. Does it help me accept myself? No. Does it make the offender aware of their wrongdoing? Does it make the offender care? No and no.

For me, practising forgiveness (I don't know if I ever will perfect it) is a form of self-love. It has nothing to do with the other. It has nothing to do with whether I choose to continue a relationship of any kind with the offender. It has everything to do with loving myself enough to focus on the blessings, light and love that surround me even when I am so angry I cannot see them. This is a part of Divine Love expressing itself in me.

Yes, Starhawk's four prerequisites are ideal to ease the process. But I cannot wait for an offender to evolve to the point where they can admit their mistake, before giving myself permission to heal.

My opinion only.

Blessings and Light to you

Silvlaro my dear, you are a scholar and a poet. I love your posts.

While I agree with what Starhawk said I would like to add something.

I have found, at least in my experiences, that often the person who brings harm refuses to see that they have done so. In a perfect world those who bring harm will “recognize” when they have done so and wish to correct it. This is not a perfect world. It is, therefore, up to the individual to take responsibility for their own actions…not just attempting to live without harming others but also working to “let go” once we have been harmed. As the Three Fold Law tells us, eventually everything we do will catch up to us. In the meantime holding onto hurt only brings more pain. We call what we surround ourselves with. The more we hold negativity to us the more we will have. So it follows that if we surround ourselves with healing and positive thoughts the more of that we will gain.

Does this mean we should all go around letting others kick us? No, stand up and defend yourself surely. At the same time know that whatever happens the person bringing the harm will eventually have to deal with the energies they set in motion but we need to find our own way to not carry a grudge so that we may heal ourselves. One of the hardest lessons I have had to learn is that I cannot “heal” the hurts of the world, only my own. Or as my husband is so fond of telling me “you can’t fix the world, only your little part of it”. I can still hold out the hope however that I can make a difference … even if it is a small one.

Silvlaro

Just Wondering; You said, "Tin Hat." not Aluminum.

So tsay tuned for you nearest channel from FOGETTTABOUTID, Brookly, N.Y. Ca n you feel IT )g-d) in the Vibrations of you fine tuned Photon Mist? I now know you do! Chow. n Tonka Mon.

Anonymous: A common principle? Yes: to see nature as sacred, and therefore to act properly to the things in it, including people.

What “acting properly” entails depends on the path, but it is the sense of ‘connectedness’ Starhawk mentions that is the common factor. If you strive to be aware of the impact your actions have on others, and not see yourself as separate from them, you do not get to ignore the consequences – you are involved and responsible for the whole situation, including effects you have on the future.

Forgiveness is a positive force (and certainly has its place in neopaganism, following naturally from love) but it is not always the way to achieve the most good. I have it in my power to NOT forgive, and to take responsibility for what that would mean to myself and others. If I think I have a duty to do this, it’s still possible to do so without hate and still leaving myself open to forgiving the person at a later time.

MedCat1974: : Yes, "Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die." (Malachy McCourt?)

To the various people questioning whether Starhawk can speak for "wicca" or "paganism", I find her comments to be very much in line with most neo-paganism. Emma Restall-Orr wrote an excellent chapter on pagan Ethics in the book "Pagan Visions for a Sustainable Future", which touches on some of the same points. "Paganism" is too diverse for any one view to be truly representative, but I don't think many of the people I know in various paths would have a problem with the above post.

The difference that posters tried to describe when they (wrongly) said "it doesn't matter if you do wrong in these other religions" is that Wicca and some other neopagan paths put a strong emphasis on SELF-responsibility. That includes deciding which actions are 'wrong' yourself (not leaving it to a rule in a book) and holding yourself responsible for the outcome of every action you take (not having forgiveness and absolution available through the church at a later time).

This impacts the process of forgiveness. You would be in the wrong if you let an abuser or attacker continue to harm others, because you need to look at the situation as a whole and YOUR contribution to the outcome from this point on. Revenge is not the same as feeling you can't let a situation rest until it has been defused or made safe.

This doesn't make anyone who takes that view less 'forgiving' than somebody who makes unconditional forgiveness their first action: you can still be open to forgiving everyone, but responsible about the steps they need to take before you'll give that.

My personal view is that revenge is usually pointless. It doesn't get you what you want (ie: for the event not to have happened in the first place) and it just keeps the person you don't like at the front of your mind. Sorry, but if I think you're scum then you don't get to have my time spent on you.

Everyone gets a second chance, but only if they're capable of not causing more harm immediately afterwards.

I'm confused. Is there a common principle here?

Terra Gazelle:

On saying Thank you,

I'm reminded of something Mas Ayoob once said. (Ayoob used to be a law enforcement officer and a frequent contributor to gun magazines. He may be retired now; I haven't heard of him in years. Of course, not being a hobbyist, I don't read the gun magazines much anymore.) As a way of keeping oral aggression from escalating to violence, Ayoob suggested smiling and saying, "Thanks for sharing that." I've tried this, and it's pretty cool. It gave me a nice superior feeling (which I just love), and threw the other party into total confusion. He actually said, "You're welcome."

I'm reminded of the saying, "A grudge is like poison *you* drink to try to kill someone else." It is refreshing to see a model of forgiveness that includes the steps of restitution and accountability--something very akin to my own Pagan values. I personally feel that my faith is strong enough to know that those who deserve corrective action will receive it in ways I can neither control nor anticipate. I don't have to chase down people on this plane and dole out punishment myself. I only wish more people would trust their Deity(/ies) to gently repair the broken children of Earth!

Terra,
Good to "see" you again.

I am all over the place with my ability to let go of hurts done to me, but I am working on it.

For example, my first husband was physically abusive - I finally left after one night when he got so violent that I feared he was going to kill me. That was almost 20 years ago and I still cannot speak the man's name without the taste of bile in my mouth. There are times when my current husband, a wonderful, loving man, will say or do some small thing that brings a flashback, and I lash out at him. Fortunately, he knows why, and does not hold it against me when it happens, but gently reminds me, "I'm not him." I doubt that I will ever be able to forgive the man, but I work daily at letting go of the pain. It not only hurts me, it hurts the people I love.

I worked at Sprawl-Mart when I was a college student and my daughter was a toddler. The stories you hear about their illegal labor and marketing practices are all true. And when I tried to file a complaint agianst them with the Department of Labor, I was blown off by the feds. When my daughter came down with pneumonia, and I told them I would be out until she was well, I was asked why I couldn't get a sitter, because they needed me to cover an extra department. After I quit that job, not only did I refuse to ever shop there again, I felt a strong desire to burn the place down every time I drove past it. I still don't like them, but if there is absolutely no other place in town to get something that I absolutely have to have, I will go there, even though I still feel like I need a shower every time I walk into one. But I have managed to quell my desire to commit arson.

But because I know how harmful wrongs can be long after they are seemingly "over with," I try that much harder to not wrong others, and to own it and try to make amends when I do. I guess that's my way of trying to restore the balance.

terra - i withdraw my comments - its jacob that needs to get that tin foil hat tuned. his appearance must mean that they now have the internet in the looney house.

terra - dont forget to take hyour meds and be sure to get that tin foil hat tuned.

anonymous,
If you are Pagan why do you insist on quoteing the bible? We do have our own Ordains and Principles. As far as stateing that as Pagans we are better then any other...that is against what we believe totally. As we believe all are on a path and learning, there is no one better then another. We are all children in the spiritual, and the one thing we need to grow is knowledge.

If you are hanging with Pagans stateing they are better...change groups, because they are not.

terra

Just Wondering,
Do you have a problem...? I certainly hope Starhawk sees Goddess when she sees herself..Just as I hope you see your Deity when you look at your reflection.

I also have beautiful robes..we should put forward our best when worshipping, don't you agree? Or do you wear dirt covered jeans?
Have I taken your attitude wrong? If so I apologize, if not what is your problem with Starhawk selling her work? We all have to make a living. Or have you discovered a way to live on air and not pay bills?

terra

Star, nice to see your post on this site. Your formulation seems to reflect the kind of restorative justice common among tribal societies including those practicing traditional monotheistic religions.

To those who have made some uninformed remarks about other religions, since you actually seem to have no real knowledge of the intricate and complex legal system of Islam (let alone Judaism, Christianity is the only of these that has evolved the concept of grace and salvation to the point intimated), please refrain from mischaracterizing and conflating these faiths with simplistic ideas such as "it doesn't matter what you do"...in fact, it is clearly stated time and again, that it does matter what you do...reap what you sow, day of judgment, so on and so forth not to mention real punishments such as repayment, etc for real harms aimed at restorative justice.

I've been a part of several pagan communities including Feri, Reclaiming, Dianics etc., I keep my foot in most of these camps, moreover, I am an "oriental" (an offensive term I might add) and so I know a bit about "oriental" religions. Aside from the exotification of the "oriental", one of the most irritating things I come across in paganism as well as monotheistic and traditional religion is the arrogance of "we are better than they". A charge that is consistently leveled at "mainstream" religions but not inwardly at pagandom. It crops up even when it's not really part of the conversation. Moreover, these kinds of strange mischaracterizations and oversimplifications further misunderstandings of other religions and I would argue cause real HARM. At least just as much harm as equating paganism, Wicca, and the Craft with satanism.

I think there's a biblical injunction on point: something about a mote in the eye!

Star's post is about forgiveness on a personal level, each of us have our thresholds and processes to come to this state of being able to forgive regardless of what our respective religions teach. I think making a meta -discourse about the *value* of particular religions is the real danger here.

It's very interesting to read thoughts on forgiveness. Coming from an Asian background and upbringing, we as childern were taught to discern the "good" from the "bad", not asked to repent if we did something "wrong" but reflect on it to see if the "act" we committed could have been done any other way, as clearly "rules of a society" are realtive.
In the Hindu belief, your past actions make you what you are today, and the present destines your future. The goal is "inner peace" and you continually strive for it. Hence external events are irrelevant and punishing, forgiving, asking for forgiveness or any human folly for that matter are considered "human", not requiring any extraordinary efforts to justify.
Because life is assumed to be a continuum, and as the responsibility of finding that "inner peace" is solely yours, you can do it at your own pace and your own way as long as you are not obstructing some one else's quest for the same.
You are considered the "final moral authority" not needing a higher authority-God or whatever to answer to and if you can find peace within yourself after each "act" you think you wrongly committed, you need not ask for forgiveness or be forgiven!

I think there is a difference between forgiveness and the personal refusal to hold on to the hurt that was done to you. I would forgive the person who repented and tried to make it up to me. I would drop the grudge against someone who did not - I will not hold onto hate or other negative feelings toward another because it hurts me and does nothing to or for them. It is up to the universe to deal with their actions, I must deal with mine.

The best revenge is still living well!

Abby,
There are basic core Pagan beliefs. If we do not share those core beliefs where do we differ? There have been others here that have said the same kind of things...but they have never shared differences.

Blessings,
terra

are you still the leading authority on the goddess movement? and when you look into the mirror does the goddess look back at you? http://store.soundstrue.com/starhawk.html
i loved the eastern robes - still wear them?

Forgivness takes work...as a Witch/Wiccan/Pagan I have had to use humor to salve the hurts that have come from discrimination and slights. Some one says I am going to hell...I say "thanks" with a smile. My revenge? it drives them crazy. There are times when it is just not a matter of forgiveness, some people feel they have the right to voice their wishes for me, even if they do not know me. I tend to let it pass, as they know not what they do.

But forgiveness is up to me. For the person that aggrieved me to feel good about himself, he must own up to his wrong. But that is if he felt he was wrong...his ethics is up to him. I must forgive him, so that my heart is not heavy. That is up to me. There is only one thing I can control...my reaction.

It may not come to being apologized to, it might just come to knowing that the Gods will take care of everything, and it is up to me to right my part of it.

Let me be a window, maybe broken, but through which some air and sunlight comes.
ed fitch
But that does not mean I can not take a stand and fight...I can and will. But it is not with vengefulness or hate, but with the view to stop the wrong.

terra

Jacob Jozevz, stop inhaling low-grade stuff.

Jacob
I agree with every word you said.

One thing I observe among many Pagans, particularly those of a Wiccan-type magical stripe in these regards, is a certain emphasis on the awareness and actions of the (would-be) forgiver, (we'll say, 'Aggrieved party.')

There's an awareness in many schools of thought, of what happens to one if one's bound to grudges, one might say, ...and an idea, I think, of ideally holding someone to account rather dispassionately, at least over the long term. One could say it relates to living in a world not based on 'sin and judgement and repentance' in the first place.

Forgiveness is in most cases a very human, if quasi-magical activity, without the supernatural connotations of 'repentance' to complicate things.

There's a combination, perhaps, of a studied awareness as well as striving for ideals of 'perfect love and perfect trust,' that sort of frame this idea.

There's certainly a stereotype that crops up of Pagans running around maniacally trying to hex people for slight offenses, (maybe those who promote those stereotypes imagine that's what they'd do if they thought they had the power) but I think the reality is that we learn about 'Well, what if you did. How would you really want to live. What happens to you and your community when offenses are nursed and carried on into 'debts' of a sort, (as the old version of the primary Christian prayer would call them.)

I think it's not an uncommon Pagan idea that may be related: Forgiveness is freedom. Just sometimes it takes some work between people to really get there. In the meantime, well, as we bind, so are we bound.

This concept of balance is one of the strongest things in the Wiccan world view. Unlike the strictly dualistic interpretation we are taught as Christians -- this list of stuff is strictly bad and that list over there is strictly good -- their interpretation allows for gradations. Even as a Christian, it is useful to follow a standard of regaining balance by trying to remove what is hurtful.

Maybe I should say especially as a Christian. As a majority faith we have a greater duty of empathy, understanding and tolerance than anyone else in this country.

I think that speaking as a Pagan and Wiccan that Starhawk's commentaries are both valid and illuminating. The concept of forgiveness is one that shouldn't be rooted within a religious context but more of a social one, since religions tend to modify the concept to meet whatever personal or political agenda is being defined for that time frame.

Take the concept of divine forgiveness. For the mainstream religions, it does not matter what crimes you've committed in your lifetime, it doesn't matter how many people you've hurt or killed, it doesn't matter what you've destroyed, as long as at the very end you've repented for your sins then God/Allah/Jehovah will forgive you and you're welcomed into Paradise/Heaven. To me, that is an extremely hypocritical belief, and one that is dangerous in nature. In contrast, many of the Oriental belief systems such as Buddhism and Taoism hold the belief that there is a balance to one's actions, and that one's next life will be determined from the past. While the concept of reincarnation is poison to the majority of Judeo-Christian believers, it is perhaps more honest when it comes to the aspects of forgiveness of both the individual and of the community.

But far too often within our society and culture we tend to pass off forgiveness as a kind of grudging requirement. The honesty towards forgiveness has to come from both sides, the one who performed the wrong and the one who was wronged. Grudges and memories over the actions only foster and ferment further actions against others, and end up creative the environment we live in today where the incidents of years (or centuries) past are the bedrock of the behavior of today. It's impossible to see a true atonement for one's actions as we automatically assume that there's some other purpose behind it, some desire to please the ones who were wronged simply to please them.

I at least try to live and be honest, and make up for my mistakes. I may not succeed, but at least I'm trying. But that too is part of the cycle...

Abby,

Just like Pamela does not speak for all Muslims and Susan J does not speak for all free thinkers. It was just her take on the topic. I agree with Ash, I am interested in your take on forgiveness/apology as a pagan.

I think all panelists should start off with a disclaimer like Starhawk did.

Abby,

Starhawk does start by saying "I’m not sure if the Pagan tradition as a whole has a position on forgiveness. But my personal view of forgiveness comes out of my Pagan understanding that all of us are interconnected and interdependent."

So I don't think she is trying to speak for all Pagan folks. But I am curious - how do your Pagan values inform your view on forgiveness?

Ash

So now Starhawk defines Pagan beliefs? I thought she was a Wiccan, many Pagans are not Wiccan, but maybe she didn't want to use the unpopular W word in Newsweek.

On this, or any other issue, Starhawk does not speak for me and many other Pagans.

Well said!

William

Wonderful article, Starhawk. As a fellow-Pagan, I concur with your own view that we are all inter-connected and part of All-That-Is. Therefore, when we forgive, we forgive another aspect of OurSELVES.

One point, however. I have been in situations where I had to work with someone who had wronged me. Or where I had to interact with someone who had wronged me (a close family member, for instance.) In those particular instances, they did not admit any wrong-doing, nor did they do any restitution. However, it was still in my best interests to have a relationship with them, so I could do my job, or so I could attend family functions.

In those kind of instances, there is a kind of "letting go of resentment" once the issue has been worked through (in my own psyche.). That is, I haven't completely forgiven them, but I am letting go of my anger and resentment because that hurts me more than it hurts THEM.

In those cases, however, I am careful not to open myself to mistreatement again. I look for new ways of reacting to them, so that they don't get the idea that I am inviting more mistreatment. I also look for support from others in dealing with them in a way that is fair and balanced (especially without sacrificing my own self-respect in the process.).

I've found the books of Harriet Lerner and Muriel James VERY valuable in learning to deal with anger, with issues related to intimacy, and fear. A good introduction to Harriet Lerner's work is her book: "The Dance of Connection: How to Talk to Someone When You're Mad, Hurt, Scared, Frustrated, Insulted, Betrayed, or Desperate."

Henry James,

I agree with your follow-up to Starhawk's wonderful post, mostly with this statement:

"Making "repentance" a "Religious virtue" is another case of organized religion co-opting an innate moral understanding that all humans possess (except the mentally ill and sociopaths)"

We Don't Need Religion for Foregiveness and "Repentence"

Starhawk: your understanding and spirit is right on the mark here.

There is hosts of scientific evidence that atheists are at least as moral as believers. (read Peter Singer and Marc Hauser).

The most basic tenet of morality is
"don't do bad things to your fellows" the Categorical Imperative

and if you do
Say you are sorry, mean it, and don't do it again.

Making "repentance" a "Religious virtue" is another case of organized religion co-opting an innate moral understanding that all humans possess (except the mentally ill and sociopaths)

and saying you need to subscribe to my religion to expiate your guilt.

We need to grow out of this superstition.