Religion is a Human Construct

i think where the fault lies in not your apprehension of "mindless creation" but of your underlying believe that all was created from mind.

I cant stand to use the word God,
for it represents something of a far greater nature, of course mind, compassion, hatred, love
are in its very nature because everything and nothing are contained within it...

Attempts to humanize such phenomenon, with phrases like "intelligent design" i find demeaning

for those of religious faith the fact that you are arguing about it shows the very limited understanding you have of it....

From the Scientist to the Preacher who would approach that which is beyond intellect through
study of external phenomenon alone, such as a Holy book...

you will only confuse yourself...and be further from the truth

I have no miracle key, i have no ploy or marketing gimmicks, i dont even write this with a name....so you have an idea of what i want in return for this pearl i give you...not even recognition

all i have is words,

the truth of it? it must be experianced.
and the only way to experiance it is to look inside, that which is the most intimate with all
likewise resides in the most intimate recesses of your very own being...
you must search for it internally because experiance by its very nature, is dependant on phenomenonal response within

not without

It is not withought mention that the great enlightened beings of our history were also known for meditating voraciously This includes, Jesus Christ, The Prophet Mohammad, The Buddah to name a few

(the halo around the heads of holy individuals characterized by the color gold, is also well known in the worlds most ancient eastern philosophies in its regard to the crown chakra (energy vortice of the highest vibratory rate located in the crown of the head) which activates upon awakening in the distinct goldend color..at which time the being is enlightened and is gifted with what appears to be supernatural abilities

i was once asked a question "well with supernatural abilities why didnt they take over the world"

These entities never argued, or tryd to pursuade through force, but helped fellow man ceaslesly while teaching.

(it is also worthy of note that some of the first recorded enlightened beings Hanuman being amonsgt them, were not human beings but "ape like men"

if you didnt get a chill up your spine, when the phrase "evolution" popped into your head re read it

imagine that...a relatively "stupid" neanderthal realized it, but "intelligent" human beings still have trouble? wait a second here...

if not the intellect then what? oh no? the hair maybe?

The answer is self evident. They would have never reached such a perfect level of awareness had they had the conscious baggage of accumulated wrong actions against fellow men...

another words, these were plain old good folks.

intelligence is limitation of the human mind..
it is measurable

it is far more tangible

which by default makes it appear easier to comprehend
that which is beyond description...

to give you an idea of the scope of what the limited intellect is faced with....

The current theory of the universe as per steve hawkster is "an infinite number of big bangs" (wow almost sounds like macro level karma)

The moment of impact, the very precise moment of the transformation of energy and vast redirection of forces....or very simply, the very moment of change from one phenomenon to another

is known affectionately as the Singularity (no doubt an allusion to the percieved rare nature of such phenomenon)

It is said at this point of singularity, this moment of exact change in phenomenon, the laws of physics and mathematics completely breakdown,
and the descriptive capacity of language utterly and literrally breaks down...(all traits of the intellect mind you)

Science attempted pure objective intellect in its varied forms to bring to light the nature of the moment. Its various tools of quantum physics and mathematics, the tool of language...

you see many would see that as our intellect is limited, in that percievably in the future we will have developed the knowledge to again approach the mountain

you see it wasnt a matter of limitation, it was a matter the utterly useless ability of the purely intellectual endeavors in approaching something of such all encompassing nature..

(notice-im not describing sciences approach to God, oh no, im only talking about the futility in the Singularity, remember that)

now say cheese and smile cause this ones about to make your eyes squint...

from quanta to photons, protons to atoms, from atoms to elements, from elements to substance, through tissue, through organ, through body, through our very own mother earth and her sun

to the galaxy, the clusters and to the superclusters ad infinitum...

at each and every moment, through conception throught aging to death,

from the arising from each thought in your mind, to the seasonal changes on earth to the formation of super duper clusters to the big bang and beyond

each is in a CONSTANT state of transision...

they may appear relatively solid to the untrained mind (not the eye)but each is in the process of arising, being, and ceasing...

So each and every moment if you were to freeze frame (which is impossible) not just one object, but every known and knowable phenomenon that we are aware of and that which we are not

is in a state of changing form. All ways. All the time. Right now.

and right now

thus each is likewise the very same Singularity
that wich is attributed (only) to the big bang.

read it again if you feel the need, let it sink.

if your eyes are not open or you are thinking of a counter argument, you didnt comprehend... read it again if you need...

yes friend what im saying is that everything at from thoughts to washing machines represent, at their very foundation a Singularity...

it just so happens to Giant Stones in space forced us to attempt to understand the same phenomenon at a point many see as extra ordinary

when in fact it is very very all encompasingly ordinary...

that freeze frame of impossiblity that no reasoning approach can grasp, was grasped fully, by good biengs....

and what they saw drove them each to literrally stop theyre lives and live out, and suffer for the sole hope that they could bring it to the eyes of other biengs

so they could feel the happiness and the joy of it
so that they may know that there is a very valid purpose to life, and there is no reason for strife or suffering...

Perhaps these human beings actions put the experiance of the constantly happening singularity which is reality into perspective...

i only recieved a fleeting kiss of this ultimate true nature, and now look what im doin? im 26 years old, this is not what i do! hahah

when i saw it late at night meditating under my neighbors tree (martial arts related at the time)
i thought i was dead because i felt so damn good and joyful, when i pinched myself i realized i wasnt then said oh no! im not supposed to figure it out! at which point i tried to forget it while looking above to see if the tree was gonna fall on me. (no folks, no previous episodes of mental abberations, on the contray i was the rock that others came to and clung to for support all my life)

But each negative possible outcome i would imagine, disappeared immidiately upon rising..

i could see negative thoughts of bills, cheating girls literrally get sucked away replaced by joy

i went home with a huge smile on my face, laid down and for fun thought negative thoughts just to watch them vanish as if in a vacuum..

i layd down and cried for the first time in 13 years and they were tears of the firt true happiness i could ever rem feeling. (not a cryer either folks)

Science has unwittingly discovered "scientific" proof of the truth and they dont even know it...

you will never find it on the outside.

it is impossible. if you argue it is futile because your are stating online simply that you are afraid to study and know yourself

as well you should be, for that is where the ony demons lay..

whatever you do and whoever you are, i hope you begin your personal journey, but whether you do or not i hope for nothing but eternal happiness for you bud, you deserve it.

later gents

Oh! How poignant! This is a concept I have tried to explain in regards to my choice of being pantheistic and your words have put it so simply, and yet so spot-on. Thank you! After reading The Earth Path, I must say you've become something of a guru to me, making me feel so much more passionate about what I believe and wanting to ACT, so many blessings to you, dear woman, for all that you do.

http://DrugsHome.com

I was re-reading this thread, and it is obvious that someone has taken out a lot of the posts attacking Paganism. I'm not sure how I feel about that--for one thing, it makes our replies to that person seem disjointed and makes the whole thread, when read from top to bottom, lack unity. I'm not sure whether it is a good thing to censor posts from mature threads. What do you all think?

frkp mvzht qzpali dqufcrt strmajg djnrh kbtswm

Religion.

I am sorry to reply to this event. Religion is not all music. Music or Poetry does affect our lives like religions do. Music is the creation of our brain and our imagination, but religions came to us in order to accept them. We do select our religious belief; a Higher Power calls us to it. Changing religion is neither from our own power. It is a matter of our heart and whom who call us to that transformation. We have no control over it till we decide to master our life and yet, we fall into something that remains mysterious to us. And we may talk millions of time, the mystery still remains and it may even guide us without our consent. We often say sorry after we realize our mistakes. But sometimes we never pay attention that is requested from us.

Many people go to a religious system not because they choose to, but because there was an event in their life that commanded them to it.

Any of us can be commanded today when the time is due. This involves changing religion or changing belief. We read and never come across the truth. The truth may not be mine to be truth. The truth is universal. We either find it or we do not find it.

If we are searching with our own power, we may never get it. Too many of us have the truth and they keep it secret for their own purpose. They do not share it with others who are confused everyday and are suffering searching for it.

One day, one must decide to question his truth by questioning his God or his god. It cannot be any secret that mind cannot cross to believe in something and to stop speculating on something else. That leads many to err.

The game in the world today is the fight over religious beliefs and systems. And, the cautious behavior is to not hurt any one. We need friends, we have a market that needs us and we need it, we do not want to shake the status quo of that market. It is either good or bad. When someone says something that seems evil to others, he has to pay such a heavy price even if what he says makes sense and it is true. He may never say it.

Out of thousands or millions of people who found something in life about their belief a few may attempt to share it. Otherwise, it remains a mystery for the rest of us. How many times we hear people say, “Leave me alone, I do not want to hear it.” They may be right and someone else is coming to confuse them by changing their mind, or they may be wrong, but they lost that opportunity to find what they want. I finally conclude that we are reader reading the same book but come up with a different conclusion. It hurts because we do not come up with the same result.

Some of us found the answer, they twisted it. They denied it, they choke it. If they were able to be honest with us, if they were able to have open mind to listen and to share and to spend sometimes to review their understanding once more on the things that they learned, they may change their philosophy and help many do the same. The training of every leader is to give something new to those who listen, it is to change their conception and force them to be better in what they have to offer. Our belief may go that far and it does. Except that we do not know how many who become better after their training and their reading.

If we have no other name to call it, we can simply say that all religions serve their purpose. It is either a temporary purpose or a long term purpose. It is a matter of destiny.

Where are you from, where are you going, this must be part of our mental focus and do not let any one confuse us when we know that we are on the way. We need to read the relative truths and bring from them the absolute truth. We do not have to speculate, we need to come up with something that makes sense and we will stand before the sense to see if it really makes that sense; if it is true; why we brag about it.

Religion is not science. If it was every one would be silent long time ago. It was not too long ago someone had to look up the sun and tells us the time, but he fails when the sky was cloudy. It was not too long ago when I touch my body and I said, I am hot, I have a fever, but it was not true. Science helps me to find the truth that was relative and becomes absolute. We cannot measure religion. However we can judge it in term of quality, strength, and power that it gives to those who believe in it. It is a force that triggers human being into something that they did not want to do.

To seek truth, we must empty our head of its fullness of reading about facts that are confusing. Does what I see is real? Why do they give it to me? What do I ask to see? What do I ask to know? What can I do by myself? What others gave to me, may I question it? Not all religions are man made and man does not really create any religion. Religion is about worship; spend some times with a Master, with a Higher Power. There is a communication that is vertical and supernatural that takes place when we adhere to its doctrine. It serves as a connection between the weak and the strong and the weak draws power from the strong and his belief becomes stronger till he makes himself one with his Master. It is more than just going to a place of worship and sit down to watch what others are doing. We must stop being observers to become worshipers. The Masters will not reveal their secret and their will to us till we make commitment of whom we choose to worship.

The funny thing to avoid is that there is not even a single baby in this world without a religion, not even an adult without religion. Staying everyday of the week is a silent form of worship. A master is watching our behavior and he chooses us if we do not choose him and he makes us live for him by giving us thoughts, imagination, acceptation or rejection. We either accept one or reject another one. This is the purpose of religions. It is not simply about our personal choice. Since the beginning of time, the choice to worship has been established and our forefathers had to choose from Masters.

Now it is up to us to figure out what is taking place in this world, what is this crazy idea we must fight and someone else must leave us along? We become enemies of each other and we have troubles, we come together to comfort one another and very soon, the same old thing reappears? What sense does it make? We have a cold war in us because we do not know what it is real and what is wrong and again, we must forgive because no one really enters into this battle in his own name within his own power.

We are triggered by forces who call us to goodness and by forces who call us to pain and to suffering. It is part of religion. Either we like it, either we do not like it, we begin to live with it since day one of our life.

Freedom of religion is good but it is up to me to make the right choice of whom I choose to worship or whom I choose to keep away of my life. There are millions of things to worship in the visible world. But the Masters are not visible. We must dress up with the invisible clothes to meet the invisible Leaders. It is a serious matter. We simply need to know their voice in many ways they appear to us. And based upon their goodness to us, we will decide that we have a Master.

Religion can be made man, but triggered by a higher power that is left to us to figure out who that power is. Then, we will have a good composite to draw from. Then, our fight and confusion may slow down. We must always remember in fighting for religious belief, we also take the stand for a master.

Andre.

Anonymous,

Please study some history.

Crowley's law was, "Do what ye will, shall be the whole of the law."
Not Gardener's 'An if it harm none do what ye will'Which is opposite of Crowley's belief and way of life. Crowley was called The Beast...and whether he earned it or not He took pride in the epithaph. Crowley died in 1947...Gardner's book came out in 1954, after the Law against Witchcraft was repealed in England, after he had met Dorothy Clutterbuck in the New Forest and learned from her and her group about Witchcraft.

Crowley's magick was Ceremonial Magick, that is High Magick, it carries with it different traditions and rituals..it is mostly an off shoot of esoteric Christianity and ceremonial Eygptian Magick...believing in demons, angels and beings of evil. It is nothing like Wicca or any earth centered faith.

This is a sample of a Crowley invocation, a copy of Egyptian magickal invocation:
'so that every Spirit of the Firmament and of the Ether: Upon the Earth and under the Earth; on dry land and in the Water: of whirling Air; and of rushing Fire and every spell and scourge of God may be obedient to Me.'

The scourge of God he is talking about is the Christain god, not the God of our people. And we never demand for our Gods to be obedient to us. Our gods work with us, we do not treat them as servents, nor are we servents to them.

Crowly followed a mystery religion,OTO...but there are many mystery religions. There is a core that is in Paganism and the mystery religions, is it a surprise that those faiths that include those religions should have simularities? Does that mean that I a follower of one form of mystery religion should find it odd that I might have something in common with another? Did the mystery religion of Hecate take from those of Demeter?

Now if you want to go back to the ancient Mesopotamia, you will find much of what we practice. If you want to go to Babylonia you will see it, if you go to Ur, or even in the ancient Hebrew camps where the women would go into the hills on full moon nights and make offerings of moon Cakes and wine to the Queen of Heaven...who was Ishtar.

Just because those men of the early renewal of the esoteric religions know each other and that they all studied occult literature does not mean that what they found individually was hoccum.People interested in the same topic usually do cluster together. Those interested in birds might also be interested in seeds.

To equate Witchcraft with scientology shows your ignorance...like I said Study.
And other then that, who asked for your opinion on our beliefs?

You also forget about The Golden Bough written by Frazier in 1896, long before Gardner. I also have a copy of the Phycology of Witchcraft 1924, Charles Leland's Gospel of Witches 1899 or Apuleius's Golden Ass written pre 158/9 AD, this is the only book of Roman-Greco times that has survived intact. It's like saying that Shamans did not exist, the Pristesses and Priests in the temples did not exist... there is not a thing in Wicca that was "created" whole cloth by modern man, in cluding it's name. From the Athame, wand, cup and Pentacle to herbs, divination, Circles and rites they have all been from the beginning of time...transitioning and migrating but there.

terra

Anonymous:

Modern day Wicca is usually credited to Gardner and Alexander, but some aspects of Goddess worship, that are still used today in either belief or ritual (or both), in one form or another can be found in traditions and cultures going back about at least 30,000 years or so, if not even older. The Masons and Rosecrutians of old, among others, lend some of their practices to those who influenced Gardner and Crowley himself.

Scientology was most definitely created out of whole cloth, all at once. Wicca and paganism is created more like a patchwork quilt, using much older pieces to create something workable in modern times. Many Wiccans today are working on removing the modern from the older parts to make something as close to the older roots as possible that can still be used today.

Even Abrahamic traditions have some mystery traditions buried within them too if you look hard enough.

Like Wicca and Paganism itself, the history is not exactly linear since there were a lot of folks out to destroy paganism for one purpose or another. Much information has been lost. A lot of what we do know about some of the pagans of the past come out of writings of people who painted them in very suspicious terms, without a real clear understanding of who they were and what they actually believed.

To assume that all Wiccans follow Gardner or Crowley is the same as assuming that all Christians follow exactly what the pope/Church tells them to. Or to assume that all Protestants are Lutherans.

Wicca is a fabrication of Gerald Gardner, a disciple of Aleister Crowley. It is a watered down version of Crowley's complex system of ceremonial magick.

Why do you people continue to believe this hoax that
doesn't have pedigree any more ancient than Scientology?

Blessed Be Maggiemay,

The problem is that by the time Starhawk replies, when there is a question she can reply to, there is a short time for comments on her page...but her page is usually one of the most popular.

We get some good conversations going...

Nemaste,
terra

What a wonderful discussion I've stumbled upon. Reading the Charge of the Goddess always makes me tingle.
Blessed be...

To Paganplace: When I say man basically has not changed I am not talking about his toys or his knowledge of how things work, I am talking about how he acts, still trying to lord it over his fellow man, killing and terrorizing if need be. Take a look at the world is it really any different than it was in the past. Our weapons may be more sophisticated and our cruelty on a more massive scale but is it any different really. What Jesus taught and what most of the people say that He taught is worlds apart. A lot of what people that call themselves christians say is such pure hatred, it is not even close to what the bible actually means. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum

Thanks guys...!

I am a proud mama...Silv is a very special person with much to give. Can you tell I am beaming with pride?? She is also my Maiden and a mother hen as far as I am concerned. lol.

PP..Welcome and you too Lep...and as for the rest of you..come to Covenspace...a new poll I have up...beware blatent promotion-
------------

Should Pagans be involved in Politics?
Pagans are above all that! ohhh Look at that fairy!!!
I hug trees but to hell with Global warming. I might be discriminated against.
I am citizen and Pagan and I care what happens in my name.
----------------
also you will have the opprotunity to have all kinds of info from all over.

www.gazelle.covenspace.com

Blessed be!
terra

Congratulations, Silvlaro!

Bright blessings on your new journey ! :)

Hey, Terra, I've been looking for an excuse to hang out there. :) And congrats. :)

Congratulations Silvlaro!

Terra, you must be feeling a lot like a proud mama at the moment.

PS- Anonymous is me...
terra gazelle

FYI-
Silv is going to be given her second degree in the Fall. Get ready to title her Lady. LOL...

I wish we had a forum where we could continue our discussions...

Blessings to all...
I invite you all to Covenspace...a place for pagans like My Space. You Pagan friendly non pagans are welcome to my page and group. But remember it is in a pagan site.

My page-Witches Hat Rack
www.gazelle.covenspace.com

my group-Voices on the Path
www.vox.covenspace.com

terra

Pretty one, Silv... :)

"Interesting angle on the Immaculate Conception. I like that a lot better than what I was taught as a child, which was that Mary was told that she was going to have a baby, no ifs, ands, or buts."

I think that's where we see this idea of "Submit by free will or be damned," which simply redefines coercion as not-coercion.

Too often this is simply used to deny that coercion is happening, while simultaneously blaming the victims for it by claiming it was their 'free will' not to have submitted already.

Which can lead to a sort of 'Stockholm Syndrome' which is part of our 'pack instincts' out of control because we've denied it. Maybe turning them into more like *herd* instincts, as these metaphors go.

Really, we're creatures of an interplay of dominance, submission, *and* cooperation: there's a tendency in some schools of thought to end up valuing only the 'dominant male' parts of our experience and consider the other parts of us as 'unworthy' parts which must be made to shut up to appease and obey an 'unquestionable' alpha-male-king-figure... and all people who want power over others have had to do is *identify* themselves with that figure and use conditioned shame as a bludgeon to call any uppity betas or omegas/scapegoats

'Choosing to be unworthy.'

There are certainly other ways to see the world, ...even those myths.

Silvlaro:
That's beautiful. I have a journal in which I record the words of others that feed my soul. Your devotional is going in there.

Thank you Starhawk, you put that very well. This question is the same as asking, which came first the chicken or the egg? … the responses aren’t always as cut and dried as people would like.

Terra, thank you as well. It feels good seeing you … it’s nice to know I’m not the only one you … ummmm … never mind.

Having read through the posts here I have something I would like to add. This is a devotional I wrote and now use daily; it is how I feel. Speaking for myself, my connection goes beyond the everyday. It is a deep and wonderful web that connects me to everything and everyone regardless of where or who. With that thought in mind I find it difficult not to honor all life no matter what boundaries or labels society puts on them.

For those of you who have no wish to understand please feel free to pass over this contribution, for those who are genuinely seeking information to have a better idea of where some of us are coming from please read on, I hope this helps…

I Honor Thee

As I rose in the morning
Greeting each new day
I honor Thee

With each bit of nourishment
And each breath I take
I honor Thee

With each thought
And every deed
I honor Thee

As I accomplish each
Task and goal
I honor Thee

With each step
Along my life’s path
I honor Thee

With my body
Mind and spirit
I honor Thee

With all I am
Say and do
I honor Thee

Recognizing You
In every living thing
I honor Thee

Acknowledging You
Within me
I honor Thee

Holding You close
Within my heart
I honor Thee

Author Silvlaro
© Copyright 2006

Not sure exactly what you're getting at, there, Thomas.

Yes, we *have* changed very much, actually, in many ways. Some things do change: personally, I see the worship of laws and plans and writing and Kings as people worshiping in the form of what was *high tech* at the time.

Certainly our *conceptions* of spiritual experience can change, and evolve, and that's scary to some.

Especially if they telescope history *and* change through a book, which they're *taught* to believe describes how people are *now and forever* in the *first place.*

You can't really expect to see things any other way if that's the perception you're taught is 'adherence to the plan' in the first place.

Certainly, I think I speak for most Pagans when I say we aren't afraid of our hearts and minds, I think we're tired of *people* judging them based on our religious affiliations.

Certainly, we think that saying something which frankly *does* come off egomaniac *isn't* egomaniac just because someone *says it isn't because it 'must be the plan'* doesn't make sense.

I mean, what are you supposed to say to folks who do that, except, maybe, "Hey, Emperor. Nice suit."

We observe in the universe, that *change *is* a constant, as well as evolution: "She changes everything She touches, and everything She touches changes."

It's one thing to have a sense of continuity, but denying that 'change' *is* 'the plan' just leaves people baffled when stuff falls down or stops working. :)

You could say that if something isn't going to change right now, it needs no protection of kid gloves from us, and if it is, heh, well, just try and stop it. :)

Which, of course, puts the responsibility for being aware and choosing what we do back on us, where it always was.

As for saying, 'Don't question the plan, the plan is incomprehensible except for where it says cause my idea of the plan says don't question my idea of the plan,' well, that just doesn't make a lot of sense to us.

Gods and their children walking among humans, that's not something we consider novel or unique. , especially in terms of making any particular demands, particularly 'Obey cause I said so,' which is what that usually comes down to, lately.

We'd say that "God," (we like to say Goddess) *is* a woman, *is* a man, ...in fact, several of them. All of them. "God" is a tree, a bunch of dirt, a crop a stag of seven tines, perhaps, ...As well as a world, a belt of stars, ...a living universe, a living multiverse, the value pi, a banana cream pie, a '63 Chevy, ...us. :)

Everything. One might say it's not the 'divinity' of your Christ that's the problem, it's *denying the divinity* of *everything else* that's so often cut us off from our birthrights as living spiritual beings, and the treasures of our many cultures.

Turning the world into *anti-divinity.*

By enshrining *jealousy,* perhaps.

Seek that, and, yeah, that's what you'll find. I'm not sure what that's supposed to say about 'plans,' but we don't think such an idea of a 'plan' is much of an excuse or rationale for anything.

Particularly being patronizing about what you think *your* mind has made. Next thing you know, you're starting to label *people* as *defying the very simple plan,* just for living or being different.

Certainly leads to that hubris of thinking, "I know the simple plan, and it means everyone should do and believe the same things."

Not much of a plan, that, I think.

Thomas Baum:
"Also God is not a man or a woman but God Incarnate was a man and He asked permission from a Lady to become a man, God does not violate our free will."

Interesting angle on the Immaculate Conception. I like that a lot better than what I was taught as a child, which was that Mary was told that she was going to have a baby, no ifs, ands, or buts.

Isn't it something that the sheer simplicity of God's Plan is so baffling to us that we sometimes refuse to even think that it could be true. We do have free will and I have said yes to God. With all this head knowledge that we have acquired over the years has man basically changed very much? Now we worship ourselves, our brains and all the things that we make. God does not look at your religious affiliation or lack thereof He is a searcher of hearts and minds. He is not an egomaniac but Pure Love and His Plan is for all of His children. Also God is not a man or a woman but God Incarnate was a man and He asked permission from a Lady to become a man, God does not violate our free will. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum

And, well, Anonymous, on a 'jealous God', I guess that can be what you get when you start calling *a* God "God." So happens the concept occurred in Egypt before, but I really don't know what a Pagan ought to say about that, except we pretty studiously avoid that kind of idea of an absolutely-powerful jealous God.

I think we've seen where that can get you.

To wit, you get *jealous and fearful religions.*

I think, Terra, that's one reason I'm careful about saying, 'All Gods/Goddesses are One God/Goddess' too much. It's one of those things that out of context, can be as divisive as unifying: could lead to lazy thinking and maybe even ideas of 'My particular God *is* God.' ...or people thinking you're saying that.

At least while people tend to like shortcuts. :)
Maybe that's supposed to be experienced as Mystery. :) ;

Certainly, I think it's easier to learn more *human* lessons from more approachable Gods, and understand that our view of the Divine is necessarily-limited. It's one danger, too, of putting too many words out there: tell someone, and they'll think they know. :)

Paganplace, wonderful.

It is hard explaining us. It is so easy to leave out something neccessary for other's understanding.

MY tradition is soft Polytheism also. AS they say All Goddesses are One Goddess and all Gods are one God. Co-joined they are the Initiator.

I have called on Kali Ma... as well as Quan Yin, and the Morrigan, as well as my own Pantheon...all parts of the whole.The Descent of the Goddess is what our particular philosophy is based on. There is the ancient Descent from Ishtar, but we identify more with the Strega one. The Descent can be found all over the world in one form or another.

Anonymous,
In my way of seeing things...you can not create what you do not have in you. You can not create hate without knowing hate...you can not create love without knowing love. It's like making a cake, you can not make one without having the ingredients. Even the Gods have to follow the laws of the universe, they made them, they are them... lol.

Why do you say "cursed with human emotion"? You can not have wisdom without emotion. Research has been done on which is better...what leads to better choices, logic alone or with emotion? Come to find out that better choices were made when people listened to their emotions as well as logic...that is saying when they listened to their whole being...not just to mind. See it as if you were going to touch something hot that would burn you. Do you feel the heat and draw your hand back, or do you wait til you get burned to make sure it is hot?

The problem is not emotion, it is not thinking as well as feeling.

Of course all Gods are also reflections of those who honor them. As also we are reflections of the Gods we honor. It is symbiosis.

But then I am a Witch, emotion is natural and how I work. It is integrated with my logic.

Everyting has a meaning, a use. Nothing stands alone...everything is dependent on everything else.

terra

Henry James:

"People should stop WASTING their time
Reading the Bible"

I guess it takes all kinds. I'm attempting to learn Koine, so that I can read the NT in Greek.

Not to get closer to God, but because the history of Christianity is SO interesting.

I find it revealing that when God is refered to in the Bible he pocesses peculiarly human emotions. He is sometimes angry,vengeful, jealous etc... If God is truely all knowing why would he-it react to something that he could forsee? .One can only be angry, vengeful, jealous when one has no control over a situation and certainly not one where the outcome is already known. It just seems odd that believers cannot recognize that if there were truely a god he would not be cursed with human emotions. God has the imprint of man's handywork and all that it entails all over him.

WOW. I think I'm going to have to print a lot of this thread. So many things I wasn't aware of. What I really love about this journey is the more I find out, the less I really do know. It makes it all exciting and new again.

Color me impressed. :)

*and *wow,* there's a lot more posts that came up when I was writing that than I had thought. :)

Anyway, that's me trying to take a half-step out of my own worldview and describe the big picture I tend to see: (wow, that can be hard. :) ) Necessarily incomplete, but I hope a little informative.

I think the song's more eloquent. :) Not to mention the Dance. :)

My Pagan friends, it gives me such pleasure when you say: "The universe is alive and somehow conscious."

That is so true. We ECLATi-ONs believe the same thing and we know that we are part of that universal consciousness. Therefore, we can never die. Our PHOTONS (light source energy) will simple merge with the greater power out there. I don't really know what happens to the ECLATi-OFFs, but I think maybe they get sucked up into a black hole. :o)

Well-said, again, Terra. :)
She's speaking for Wicca, mostly, Anonymous. I've got a tendency to speak in at least 'popular Wicca' terms, myself, cause that's where I first learned it, but it's my observation that there *are* in fact community standards: strong ones, at that.

Wicca's an influential subset of Paganism, which does have shared values and beliefs at least as common as those of other religions, so... a lot of your questions aren't considered the most relevant ones to begin with.

Who are you to insist that something must be "BS without basis" because our beliefs don't incorporate so much *advertising?* :)

We may have a stab or two at *describing* ourselves, but *defining* isn't seen as such a priority cause we aren't on some mission to tell the rest of the world how to believe or practice, anyway. Never mind limit ourselves in those kinds of ways. A certain amount of fractiousness helps protect us from the *dogmatism* that we're in general trying to avoid. :)

We may revere the Earth as sacred, but generally won't be found saying, 'Don't disrespect the Earth because it'll piss off the Goddess,' except maybe as a metaphor for "Umm, if you mess up the biosphere, it'll be messed-up. You won't like that."

Most modern Pagans believe in a *diversity of manifestations of the Divine,* as we see in the Gods of our ancestors and/or in the living universe itself.

That... It's existentially OK to pick (or be picked by) some and for others to pick (or be picked by) some others? Wow. :)

Our shared ethics are something more organic than what you'd call 'standards of orthodoxy or orthopraxy.' We may *embrace* practices, from elaborate traditions to simple private devotionals to anything in between.

They grow out of certain basic observations, which are similar to (and often called) 'Karma.'

Here's my attempt to paint a broad picture of modern Pagan belief:

a) The universe is alive and in some way conscious, and we're part of it. Often related to through myth and story and celebration: quite central is often the figure of the Goddess of Many Names, for whom the Charge is said to speak when it says, 'All acts of love and pleasure are My rituals:' (Note it doesn't say 'love *or* pleasure.' People tend to take that wrong.) The Wiccan Rede, adhered to by 'most' Pagans in one form or another, I would say, says, "If it harms none, do what you will."

This is about freedom *as well as* responsibility: in fact, the responsibility *of* freedom and the freedom *of* responsibility. What constitutes harm,(or greater or lesser harm) is generally open to rational discussion, at least till someone comes along and says something we find silly like "Disobeying *my* book is harmful because my book says it is, somehow," or "Smacking you isn't harmful cause I say it's good!"

In a sense, this is an authority and responsibility we believe the Gods put on *us,* or, is just a property of our existence, cause:

b) What you do comes back to you: not only that, it tends to *snowball:* (we call this the Rule of Three, or Threefold Return:) therefore we should be aware, responsible, and of good will when we act. A lot of folks think the factor of three is arbitrary: I think there's particular meaning and utility in it. We like threes, anyway.

c) The progress of time tends to be viewed as cyclical: not linear and not dependent upon an idea that the world (and the soul) has a defined beginning and end: observances are cyclical and seasonal, ...something called the Wheel of The Year, often but not always manifested in a view of people themselves being among a reincarnating, or at least regenerating world: the idea is that the soul goes through many forms and changes. This doesn't come with the connotations of the cycle being a thing essentially to be escaped as suffering, (at least not right now,) or anything like the idea of the personality necessarily surviving death intact, say.

Two major schools of thought within Paganism can be: 'Hard polytheism' (seeing the Gods as distinct and separate personalities: this is very common among those who choose to try and recreate specific ancestral traditions, (*lots* of these sort of branch off or subdivide within the community, or even have split off, theologically, to focus on their own thing:) most particularly the Nordic ones that picture a more permanent sort of afterlife, and the world in a much longer cycle of rebirth, one might say. A lot of these folks prefer to call themselves Heathens, which is sort of a separate thing, (they can justifiably call themselves a religion all their own, even if many turn up for the 'family reunions.' :) ) but there's 'hard polytheism' in general Paganism, too. There's certainly a common dynamic of learning from cultures of the past, from culture and myth, and applying it in the present.

'Soft polytheism' often incorporates the idea that all the Gods, like people, may be distinct in some ways, and part of a greater whole, themselves: appearing to us in different ways for whatever reason. This often connects with The Great Goddess (or or *as* a union of the God and Goddess) being the biggest being in, indeed, the entirety of the universe, if not multiverse. :) '

You could call me a 'soft polytheist,' myself.

Anyway, definitions, by definition, tend to divide, ...there's also a diverse unity about the movement that the community values of itself... and that, ironically, is one thing that you could say, really *defines* us, compared to a lot of the rest of the world.

The world is our greatest teacher, you might say, ...so we tend to find claims of exclusive revelation rather silly: it's rather like, if someone comes up and says, 'You're going to Hell!' the reaction may in fact be, "I'm sorry you built a world where that happens to people."

I think we can see the results of behaving like that.

As for this:

"my question was - how do we know it just isn't a picture of any pregnant woman and a man wearing a stag head, instead of religious?"

Is there a difference? :)

How do you *need* to know? :)

Lord of the Dance
Aidan Kelly

When She danced on the waters and the wind was Her horn
The Lady laughed and everything was born
And when She lit the sun and the light gave Him birth
The Lord of the Dance first appeared on the earth

(chorus) "Dance dance, wherever you may be
For I am the Lord of the Dance," cried he
"And I'll live in you if you live in me
And I'll lead you all in the dance," cried he.

I dance in the circle when the flames leap up high
I dance in the fire and I never ever die
I dance in the waves of the bright summer sea
For I am the Lord of the Wave's mystery

(chorus)

I sleep inthe kernel and I dance in the rain
I dance in the wind and through the waving grain
And when you cut me down I care nothing for the pain
For in spring I am Lord of the Dance once again

(chorus)

I dance at the feasts and stories I do tell
I dance and I sing that everyong be well
And when the dancings over do no think I am gone
For to live is to dance so I dance on and on

(chorus)

The horn of the Lady casts its song across the plain
The birds took the notes and gave them back again
Till the sound of Her music was song in the sky
And to that song there is one reply

(chorus)

The moon in Her phases and the tides of the sea
The motion of the earth and the seasons that will be
Are the rhythm of the dancing and our promise through the years
The dance goes on through our joys and tears

(chorus)

They danced in the darkness and they danced in the night
They danced on the earth and everything was bright
They danced out the darkness and they danced out the dawn
The day of the dancing still goes on and on...

(chorus) . . . end

Anonymous,

Cernunnos has been worshipped from the earliest times..

There are numerous archeological and literary references to a horned god / demigod / hero / beast-man found throughout the European territories. They include the cave painting of an antlered figure called “the Sorcerer” in the Trois Freres cave in Ariege, France; the petrogliphs found at Val Camonica, Lombardy, Italy; the silver-plated Gundestrup Cauldron found in Denmark; the Germanic legend about the wild man of the woods; the statues of a horned man discovered with Roman artifacts in France; British coins bearing his image; and the Welsh legends of Gwyn ap Nudd and the Boucca. A carving of an antlered man is still visible on a Neolithic dolmen in Ireland. A bronze amulet with the head of a moose and body of a man was found in Russia. A horned figure was discovered in a Roman fortress in Durham, Northumberland in England, believed to be Celtic and created sometime between the 4th and 6th centuries. All of these images pre-date the Christian legend of Satan as a horned anti-deity.

Other artifacts bear evidence of our ancestors’ reverence for the stag or beast-man figure. Although the famed Abbots Bromley Horn Dance is “only” 950 to 1, 200 years old, an excavation of a Mesolithic settlement in Star Carr, Yorkshire, England was discovered to contain hollowed stag skulls, with antlers intact. These skulls had holes drilled in them to contain thin rawhide straps, to make them wearable as a headdress. There are carvings of a horned or antlered male figure in several churches in western Europe dating from the twelfth to the fifteenth centuries. An image of a man with curling ram’s horns was discovered in the basement of Notre Dame Cathedral. A wooden mask with bull’s horns, familiarly called the “’Ooser” was used in ritual folkplays and as a figure of punishment for spouse-abusers in Dorset up to the late 1800s. Some archeologists believe that the antlered images represent a hunting deity, while the horned men were depicted after the invention of agriculture and the domestication of animals.

The archetype of the Horned God seems to be quite universal. East India has a legendary Lord of the Beasts called Pashupati or Rhudra who looks amazingly similar to the European deity. In Bhutan and Mexico, stag dancers enact a symbolic ritual sacrifice. A deer Kachina is revered by the Navajo. Found in a Viking hoard was a golden statue of a man with deer’s hooves. The Lapp people have a forest god called Radien Kiedde, pictured as a man with reindeer antlers. There is even a wooden mask of an antlered man from a Native American culture discovered in Oklahoma. If Pan, the Faunus and Dionysus are included, the horned or antlered beast-man can be said to be a worldwide phenomenon.

The word “Cernunnos” likely came from the Roman invasions of the Gaulish lands. This inscription exists on only one written source, the fresco of a man with ram’s horns found under Notre Dame in Paris. There are similar spellings of the name in other locations, including one in Greek, which may refer to the same entity. In Latin, Cernunnos simply means “horned one”. In one Romano-Gaulish carving, a man with horns is standing beside the Roman gods Mercury and Zeus. Since these figures are deified, it’s quite probable that the horned man is also considered to be a god. The more recent English name Herne may derive from the Latin “Corn”, or old French “Cern”, meaning horned. The word “Cornucopia” means “Horn of Plenty”. A ceremony called the “Kirn Supper” was held during the Harvest Home ritual, which involved harvesting grain and baking and eating bread. The Welsh version of Santa Claus is “Sion Cern”. Cerne Abbas is home to the famous chalk carving of the priappic giant above the Cerne River. The original name for Cornwall is Kernow, both of which may refer to a horn. There is a Herne Hill in London and a Herne Bay in southern England. In fact, in Britain alone, there are over sixty references to Herne in place-names, most believed to be pre-Christian. Many people in the U.K. bear the surname Hearn, Herne, O’Hern, Trehern, Hernden, Hobson, Hod or Hood.

The horned man, man-deer, man-horse or beast-man is a figure of lore and legend as well. St. Patrick is said to have transformed himself and his companions into deer to hide from his enemies. In one King Arthur tale, Merlin rode a stag into the middle of a wedding celebration. Perhaps these stories originate from an older pre-Christian ritual or legend. The Woodwose, or wild man of the woods, was a popular figure on the coat-of-arms of Norman nobility and in churches found in the British Isles and on the continent. He is sometimes depicted as half-man, half-beast. Some speculate that the name of the horned Dorset ’Ooser mask came from “Grand Wooser”, or woodwose. The beloved tales of Robin Hood include a fight with Guy of Gisborne, a man wearing a whole horse-hide as a hooded cloak. Saint Cornelly, the patron of wild animals, is sometimes shown wearing antlers, and may be a Christianization of Herne or Cernunnos. In recent times, the metaphor of a man wearing stag’s horns meant that his wife had been unfaithful, perhaps an allusion to an earlier fertility ritual. Of course, we all know the colloquial meaning of the word “horny”.

Anthropologists speculate that pre-Christian shamans wore antlers and animal hides in a ceremony to imitate hunting, thereby attracting deer to their tribal lands. Some believe that these rites were performed as a spirit journey, perhaps to commune with a totem. The original Herne may have represented this concept. Up until the 1920s, Siberian shamans practiced similar rituals, and photographs were taken of them wearing antlered hoods. One of the paintings in the Lascaux cavern in France is of an entity with a bison head and human feet, who appears to be carrying a short hunting bow. He was discovered in 1940. A similar image was etched on a bone found in 1928 in the Pinhole Cave in the Creswell Crags of Derbyshire, England. And let’s not forget the famous “Sorcerer” of Les Trois Freres. These images strongly resemble the masked figure of the stag, bull or horse in many English mummers’ plays and hoodening rituals. These folk customs, documented from the Medieval period onward, could not possibly have used the cave art for inspiration, as the prehistoric carvings and paintings were not re-discovered until much later. These customs may also suggest an image seen while in a trance state.

So, was Herne / Cernunnos the original “God of the Witches”? We have no way of knowing for certain. The Horned Lord appears often enough in folklore, artwork, legend, ritual dances, place names, surnames and artifacts to believe that he was and is revered by many civilizations. He often appears as a mystical figure related to hunting and death. He was also a character of buffoonery, sexuality and fun, as portrayed by the Greek god Pan, the Basque Basa-jaun and the Roman faun or satyr.

I personally believe that hoodening rites and the ritual use of animal skins, skulls, horns or antlers are the “missing link” which connects pre-Christian ceremonies to the modern Pagan worship of the Horned God. Perhaps seekers might try making an excursion to the woodlands to invoke Cernunnos for themselves!

Lets get back to Hitchens...want to see this slimeball get his ass kicked in a debate on the Iraq war:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH_BULU2vcM

Great stuff!

I bet he came up with this new book to divert from his stance on the Iraq war.

What a NEOCON, what a piece of TROTSKYITE scum!!!!!

Permanant revolution, eh? How is it going, Hitch???

The Rede is confusing if you do not know what it is saying. It's like a different language, and can be misunderstood. If you know some of the ways of Wicca you can practice it more fully with the Rede.

It really is more complicated then it seems.

As in the 2nd Couplet-

ye must live and let live, fairly take and fairly give

The second couplet of the Rede teaches: " ye must live and let live, fairly take and fairly give." In it's simplicity, this lesson stresses the value and sanctity of all life, the importance of the abstinance fom theft and for generosity and compassion.

In human society, we claim to have made life and the preservation of that life our top priority. Our laws reflect this mentality, but in a hypocritical manner. We hold human life as sacred, but all other life, even the Earth herself is expendable. This is a gross philosophical imbalance, and one that has created suffering throughout time.

In the world's sacred and so-called revealed sciptures, we find that humanity was given the gift of life by the very Gods, and because of this belief humanity has grown arrogant. We have begun to feel supreme on Earth, as if human life were in some way divine and sacred, and more holy than other forms of life. This is simply not true. While it is true that the Gods did give to us the gift of life, it was also these same Gods that fashioned the material world and gave life to the plants, and animals as well. There is a simple formula to this: Since the Gods created humanity, then human life is sacred and divine, but so too is all life, since the Gods created all that exists! We must keep this in mind while thinking about the second cuplet of the Wiccan Rede.

Many Human Rights activists advocate an ideal called absolute freedom, yet the very concept of absolute freedom is a myth. It should not and can not exist...we can not hinder another's freedom. When you take the mind set of having absolute freedom in your life, you create a vaccume else where...we can not increase the standard of our lives at the expence of others. In many third world nations, an entire nation is kept in povertywhile working as slaves to provide luxuries for the world's wealthy nations.

A better philosophy would be to provide "restrained freeom", this is a compassionate idea. Each individual is responcible to evaluate the amount of freedom that is necessary for an acceptable standard of living. We must not be gluttons and over use our abilities and wasteing what we have, and not careing for others. We must restrain our freedoms to the point where we can enjoy our lives while not makeing others pay the price.

As the Wiccan Rede states so clearly, "ye must live and let live." We should grant the same standard of life, to all life, and cease the theft of resourses from throughtout our dark past of raising our standard of liveing through the slavery and pain of others.

The second part of this teaching is eternalized in the phrase " fairly take and fairly give." When one steals from the universe, it is the same as stealing from one's own mother. This statement has been true throughout human time...Contemplate this deep meaning. At the moment there is a very good example: originally there were eight million square miles of tropical rain forest encirclling the Earth. Due to humanity's greed more then half have been burned, bulldozed and destroyed. Right now there is only about three and a half million square miles left. When you stop and think that the tropical rian forest provides between twenty five to fourty percent of all pharma products, we then begin to understand what a grand scale our ignorance has reached. This does not scratch the surface of the grand injustice that we do to other members of the rain forests, such as the animals and native humans.

As Wiccans. we should contemplate daily on how we can increase our mindfulness of our compassion and generosity, so that not only our life is enriched but all other life as well.

----------------

This is from a lesson I have for my students on the second stanza of the Rede. Each stanza means more then you read. That is how Wicca and most Pagan religions are...there is always something below the surface.
Blessed Be!
terra

I think that the picture that he's referring to is a common one of the Goddess as a pregnant woman, and the Horned God. Why the Goddess is often pictured as a pregnant woman is that She is the Mother of all things. She's pregnant with the Earth, the animals, plants, insects, humans, rocks, etc. She IS the Earth.

The guy with the Horns is the Horned God - NOT Satan! The Horned God is the Goddess's son, lover, and protector. He fertilizes the Earth in order for things to grow. The Celtic (Irish/Scottish, etc.) version is often portrayed with stag horns because the stag was sacred to the Celts. However, the God has many names and forms - Osiris, Horus, Zeus, John Barleycorn, even Jehovah and Jesus. Yes, Jesus was one of many Middle-Eastern dying and resurrected Gods. Most Pagans don't have a problem with Jesus, but find many of His followers to be annoying.

Discovering that one is a Pagan (I hesitate to use the word "conversion") is the shift in thinking required from God being a separate entity and God being a part of everything - the shift from monotheism to panentheism. It has been said that Pagans are both pantheists - believing in multiple Gods - and panentheists - believing that God is in everything. It's the difference between "This tree was made by God" and "This tree is a part of God." Yes, we worship the Creator and the Creation, because they are one in the same.

Gaea, or Mother Earth, was the great goddess of the early Greeks. She represented the Earth and was worshipped as the universal mother. In Greek mythology, she created the Universe and gave birth to both the first race of gods (the Titans) and the first humans.

In the creation story of the ancient Greeks, Chaos came before everything else. Chaos was made of Void, Mass, and Darkness in confusion. Then Earth, in the form of Gaea, came into existence. From Mother Earth sprang the starry heavens, in the form of the sky god Uranus. From Gaea also came the mountains, plains, seas and rivers that make up the Earth as we know it today.

Gaea, or Mother Earth, was the oldest of the gods of the early Greeks. She was known as the supreme goddess by humans and gods alike. She presided over marriages and oaths and was honored as a prophetess.
----------

She is Terra Mater, Earth Mother...Mother of Demeter...Goddess of the surface of the Earth, Goddess of Plenty...and grandmother to Kore-Persephone, the Goddess of Spring and the Underworld.
-----------The symbol of Gaea being pregnant is that she gives birth to all there is. From Her we come to Her we shall return. She is Great Mother...Magna Mater.

Anonymous..

Cernunnos
by Dr Anthony E. Smith

"The Horned One" is a Celtic god of fertility, life, animals, wealth, and the underworld. He was worshipped all over Gaul, and his cult spread into Britain as well. Cernunnos is depicted with the antlers of a stag, sometimes carries a purse filled with coin. The Horned God is born at the winter solstice, marries the goddess at Beltane, and dies at the summer solstice. He alternates with the goddess of the moon in ruling over life and death, continuing the cycle of death, rebirth and reincarnation.
Paleolithic cave paintings found in France that depict a stag standing upright or a man dressed in stag costume seem to indicate that Cernunnos' origins date to those times. Romans sometimes portrayed him with three cranes flying above his head. Known to the Druids as Hu Gadarn. God of the underworld and astral planes. The consort of the great goddess. He was often depicted holding a bag of money, or accompanied by a ram-headed serpent and a stag. Most notably is the famous Gundestrup cauldron discovered in Denmark.

Anonymous,

You are asking the wrong person. I have no clue which picture you speak of.

Anonymous,

The Charge of the Goddess is for Wiccans..Pagans come in all faiths. Wicca is a Pagan religion, such as Methodist is a Christian religion...but there are those who are non denominational Christians...there are also nondenominational Pagans. I am Wiccan, also called Witchcraft. It is the same thing...both words from the anglo saxon word Wicce, pronounced Wi-tcha...the Pagan anglo saxons got to england in about the 5th century, before Christianity did. The word Wi-tcha became Witch...and Gardner who renewed the religion wrote a book and in it used the word Wica...that caused the mess up with pronounciation, and laziness.

Wiccacraft was mainly taught word of mouth...I did not find a book on it until I had been practicing for many years...and the first or second was Starhawk's Spiral Dance. My teachers taught me almost as an apprentice, as they were taught by word of mouth.

This is not a book religion...but somehow like in the ancient days we learn and grow. I have students, those student go through a degree system, they in turn have gained their clergy degree and have gone on the teach and lead their own groups...and so the tradition and ways grow and spread. That is how it is done in Wicca.

How do we get our Gods?

well... I can not answer that for others... but for me it's more a matter of how they chose me. I was 8 in a Christian family. I was different. I was 13 when I stopped going to church and decided that Christianity was not for me. I had already found the Goddess...it was not until I was in my 20's when I had a name for it.

I can say I think that each of us is drawn to an era or a place whose mythology pulls us. Some of us just honor Goddess and God, some honor certain deities according to the lands. For me it is pre classical Greece.. but throw in Cernunnos.

There are mythologies that hit some of us with an inner truth. For me it is the Descent of the Goddess.

We are not literal in much of our thought processes. We see the underlying meanings and truths. If you think of the color red..what does that mean to you? Or a crow or a triangle? To us each of those things would mean something. We can follow different gods.. but those things would mean much the same. Its all Life, death and rebirth...its all being responcible for what we do, its all learning.

terra

Thank you, Lady Keir Gazelle, for your beautiful words. I see and feel the same as you! I am not sure, but I think so does Jacob Jozevz.

On another thread some time back, Wiccan made the following observation about how different perceptions can be simultaneously correct.

A bee's eye employs different portions of the light spectrum than a human eye. So a field of wildflowers that we see as red and yellow, a bee would see as blue and white. Same flowers, same field, two different perceptions of the same object, both true and correct. The fact that I don't see the flowers the same color as the bee does not make the bee wrong, or me wrong, or the flowers wrong.

It works the same way for religions, and even for individuals within a religion. The fact that I see deities one way, Terra sees them another, Paganplace sees them another does not mean that one of us is right and the others wrong.
Not all pagans speak in terms of the charge of the Goddess, and some have likely never heard that term. But the nature of that charge is oneof the cornerstones of paganism.
I'm sure that there are Christians who have never heard the Apostle's Creed recited, and may not even know it exists. But the beliefs that creed refers to are theirs nonetheless.

When it comes to religion, even within the same religion, one size does not fit all. And I happen to think that's a good thing.

Anonymous:

I kinda looked around the web for you and found this site:

http://www.magicwicca.com/wicca/rede.html

I don't know how our Wiccan friends feel about it, but I found it intersting.

Starhawk: I always love your posts,
but especially warmed to this one.

People should stop WASTING their time
Reading the Bible

and read Poetry and Literature.

If one spent 1/2 the time reading Shakespeare (or Henry James) instead of reading Proverbs or "Revelations"

they would find 100 times the wisdom, morality, spirituality, and intellectual stimulation.

May the goddesses bless you, Starhawk.

Anonymous,

Well...lets see...ok:
The Charge of the Goddess

Listen to the words of the Great Mother, who was of old also called amongst men Artemis, Astarte, Diana, Melusine, Aphrodite, Cerridwen, Dana, Arianrhod, Isis, Bride and by many other names.
At my altars, the youth of most distant ages gave love, and made due sacrifice. Whenever you have need of anything, once in a month, and better it be when the Moon is full, then shall you gather in some secret place and adore the spirit of Me, who am Queen of all the wise.

There shall you assemble ye who are fain to learn , for mine is the ecstasy of the spirit, and mine also is joy on Earth, for my law is love unto all beings.

Keep pure your highest ideal, strive ever towards it; let naught stop you or turn you aside, for mine is the secret door which opens upon the door of youth. And mine is the cup of the wine of life and the Cauldron of Cerridwen, which is the Holy Grail of Immortality.

I am the gracious Goddess who gives the gift of joy unto the heart of man, upon Earth I give knowledge of the Spirit eternal, and beyond death I give peace and freedom and reunion with those who have gone before; nor do I demand sacrifice, for behold I am the Mother of all living, and my love is poured out upon the Earth. Hear ye the words of the Star Goddess.

She in the dust of whose feet are the hosts of Heaven, whose body encircles the universe. I who am beauty of the green Earth and the white Moon amongst the stars. And the mystery of the waters, and the desire of the heart of man, call unto thy soul. Arise and come unto me, for I am the souls of Nature who gives life to the universe.

From me all things procees, and unto me all things must return. And before my face, beloved of Gods and men, thine inmost divine self shall be enfolded in the rapture of the infinte.

Let my worship be with the heart that rejoices, for behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals. And therefore let there be beauty and strength, power and compassion, honour and humility, mirth and reverence within you.

And you who thinks to seek for me, know thy seeking and yearning shall avail you not, unless you know the mystery, that if that which you seek you find not within thee, you will never find it without thee. Behold I have been with you from the beginning and I am that which is attained at the end of desire.

Gabby,

In Wicca we see the Universe and all the universes as being part of one Creation...we all have our constructs that help us humans beable to take a bite and understand what we have bitten into.

One experiment that i do with my students is to blindfold them, then take a large Crystal cluster...put it in the center of them then have them touch it...explaining how it is formed. It is one cluster of Crystal points...but each person "sees" it differently. They are all correct.

Humans on this ball of swirling possibilities are made of star stuff. Everything is. The rocks and the trees are in the web with sea and mountains...and we are part of it. And it all fits... the dragonfly with its beauty lays eggs, that when they hatch, the young eat mosquito larve...It takes Dragonflies two years to mature...that is alot of mosquito young eaten. Kill the Dragonfly and the mosquitos make more people sick and more fatalities. Everything fits if we honor the web and realize we are not the king of the hills..but only one of the creatures striving to become.

I take such happiness in my faith...and I do not have to go into a church or temple. I step out my door or watch the cats and dogs teasing each other...or the guineas chasing my little dog who is half the bird's size. I see my Gods in these small things as well as in the sight of a magnificent mountain or the ocean. I saw hurricane Katrina bending the trees to the ground...that also was my Gods. As well as those rescuers who were led to save thousands from the poluted waters... the cause of that was not the gods but incompetence.

I have been in a desert sand storm in the Sahara desert...that was my Gods..as well as in the blooming of a rose. But then I also see my Goddess in my daughter and the God in my husband... How can you hate if you see your god looking back at you from the eyes of another?

Blessed be!
terra

Paganplace,
Sometimes those kinds of weekends are the best. I work 4 10-hour days, so I had Friday off as well as Monday. DH and I got all the housekeeping chores done Friday, went to my family reunion Saturday and spent the day at my uncle's fishing camp, shooting the breeze, stuffing our faces with cochon de lait, and knocking back beers. We brought a plate of leftovers home to place on the ancestors' altar, and spent the rest of the day snoozing off the satiation.
On the way there, we noticed a patch of day lilies growing in a vacant lot where an Exxon station had recently been torn down. He went back with a shovel and a couple of buckets yesterday, brought some of them home, and planted them outside the bedroom windows.
Sunday, I played with the handbell choir at the UU church, then went and bought fruit trees for the back yard.
In other words, spent most of a 4-day weekend playing in the dirt, playing in the water, playing music - just plain playing. :D

Spot on, Terra. :)

Anonymous,

Of course we have a common belief...Most Wiccans follow the same view of the world, have the same goals and set of ethics. That we see our gods differently so what? we know that is just an outer expression. We all have slight differences...but so do differing sects of the Baptists.

We do have the Charge of the Goddess that is universal. We also have the Principles that are an over view of what it means to be Wiccan. But it all comes down to Thinking, Balance and Responcibility. The human brain and spirit is capable of more then what we think.

Do you see your God as an old man with a beard like Michealangelo painted on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel? Or is He the man on the cross? Is he the blond hair and blue eyed Jesus, or the Semite peasent?

So how do you see your God? Does every Christian see him the same?

You mistake us not haveing lists of thou shalt nots as having no moral compass or connection to each other...we do. Underlying all the outer cosmetic differences is the Pagan heart...I who honor Hecate can worship with those who honor Brigid and those who honor Selene or any other Gods. It is not that our Gods are not individuals with their own ways...it is that the Gods are just a part of something bigger. And we acknowledge that we are all the children of the same Mother.

Blessed be,
terra

I dunno, Anonymous, maybe the problem is the idea that religion is supposed to be an *accusation* that's holding you up. :)

Someone else here seems to think that that's what religion *is:* denying someone else has any.

Personally, I think all you get that way is turning 'God' into someone that exists to do nothing *but* accuse and deny.

And maybe you turn yourself into someone that *can't see* that their *own* 'beliefs can change, disappear, and may or may not be shared by any other person in the world.'

"Don't let it bring you down, it's only castles burning..."

And, I see, Gaby. I guess in Jacob's view, we're 'ON' rather than 'OFF,' " anyway. :)

Seems a few choose to disagree.

And, it was an OK weekend, I suppose. Rather a fallow period for me, with lots of chatter and fidgety little material tasks involved. :)

Hahaha, Anomymous!

People used to ask me which church I attend and I used to reply "The Church of Gaby". Now I simply say the ECLATARIAN and *they* seem more satisfied by that response.

Anonymous:
"i believe whatever i believe whenever i believe it and those beliefs can change, disappear, and may or may not be shared by any other person in the world.
how is that a religion?"

How is it NOT a religion?

Actually, Paganplace, Jacob gave it that name.

A number of years ago, I had this intuition that we are part of something greater. So I meditated on it and became convinced that we are part of the universe. I have no idea how I know that, but all of us are part of IT (=cosmic spirit). Every time I look at nature and everything in it, I just instinctively know!

After reading Jacobs posts for a while, I finally figured out what he was saying and I could relate to it. That is how I became a so-called ECLATi-ON versus and ECLATi-OFF.

However, after reading Terra Gazelle's posts at the beginning of this thread, I realized I could also be Pagan.

In any case, hope you all had a wonderful Memorial Day weekend. It was a bit on the cool side here in Montana, but at least the rains held off until last evening.

As y'all say: Blessed Be.

Hey, Thomas, she taught you magic after all! :)

Anyone ever hear the Moby tune, 'We Are All Made of Stars?'

Kind of grooving on that this morning. :) You could almost hear it as a chant at a festival. :)

Tom:
"Starhawk is just a human construct. She does not really exist. Quit thinking about her and she will disappear."

All human beings are human constructs, since we are all created by other human beings. What's your point?

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

--Romans 1

Starhawk is just a human construct. She does not really exist. Quit thinking about her and she will disappear.

*chuckle.*

It's OK, Wicca's kind of like that, too. :)

Paganplace:
"I don't know where you ECLATi-ONs came from,"

When a mommy ECLATi-ON and a daddy ECLATi-ON love each other very much....

Sorry, couldn't resist

And Gaby. :) Namaste: Crossed posts while greeting everyone.

I don't know where you ECLATi-ONs came from, but it feels like we've got some new friends out there. :)

And, good morning, Jacob. :)

Pretty universe this morning, ennit?

:)

Lady Keir Gazelle,

Your post from May 27 at 4:32 PM moved me very much. I was as if I could reach out and touch your soul! Maybe I am Pagan after all and just don't know it.

I know I am ECLATi-ON, like Jacob. (By the way, Jacob, I did follow that like that ALM provided on the other blog and left Courtney a message.)

To everyone else on this posting on this wonderful string.

Namaste!

Jacob,
Merry meet, my friend! I was wondering when you would show up.
I couldn't agree with you more.
And to answer your question, "Namaste" translates something like this: "The divine in me blesses and honors the divine in you."

I'd add, to Lepi and Antaeus' answers, that it's often hard to understand the 'Neopagan movement,' (Paganism,) in *terms* of 'Founding documents.'

A lot of folks are taught that that's what religions *necessarily are.*

Ancient Pagans had a very different idea of what constitutes this thing called 'Religion' than do folks who are familiar with 'revealed traditions' and 'holy books:

You can trace Wicca back to Unca Jerry, but did he really *invent* it? Hardly. You can't think of what Wicca's become, (assuredly very influential beyond whatever bounds you set about the word) or especially Paganism as a whole, as something that 'gets purer' the more you go to some source materials.

Both are, in a way, things that are *grown,* not *fashioned.* (At least not fashioned *once,* thereafter to be obeyed) The roots of this go all the way back through history, and what we've learned along the way, and learned since from each other.

There are certainly shared values involved: they just aren't based on *authority* in the first place. More than that, folks who follow different Gods, maybe in quite different ways, *can* circle up, and it *works.*

How bout that. :)

There's always someone going, 'Hey, you can't do that!' ...to which the usual answer is, 'Oh, yeah? Watch!'

Much like our ancestors, we develop traditions and songs and stories and practices, and when we see other folks' Gods, we don't go, 'Clearly they aren't worshiping the True Gods,' ...if anything, we maybe tend to see our own in the neighbor's ways, or figure 'their Gods and ours might hang out sometime, who knows.' :)

It may be observed that the movement has common values: at *least* as consistent as you may find the people among the book religions to be. I think that's because it comes from elements of direct experience of both the world and the cultural heritage it comes from: instead of arguing which actions are more in line with a written authority, we're responsible, ourselves, for being aware of our actions and their effects.

Not to say I don't think the Gods are involved in the equation, but how it manifests is the more observable portion of this, and you gotta be careful with talk like that. :)

We say, essentially, that freedom is a good, and doing harm is to be avoided. We observe that what we do comes back to us.

Is it really so surprising it more or less all fits together, somehow? :)

As for what the Gods do, well, there's a lot of diversity on that: frankly, we like it that way.

I might say we commonly see the Gods ...and/or 'The Goddess' as *being in the world,* ..being the world itself, there to help guide and assist us in the situation, rather than lay down the 'law' through a 'source material' and test us by it at some later end-date. A source of wisdom and inspiration and connection, rather than, say, a displacement of our morality onto a written authority.

At least we know there's always more to learn, and we don't tend to be about deadlines. :)

Hi, Gerry. :) We do hear that a lot. Blessed be. :)

Gerry:
"Well, maybe I am a pagan after all, without knowing it."

I was pagan long before I realized there was a name for it.

Namaste.

I regard myself an atheist, but reading the different threads, the pagan thread to me is the most lovable: Nobody tries to force any "belief" on anybody, nobody makes somersaults with logical spins, nobody threatens anybody with hell, nobody bangs "scriptural" quotations into my face, everybody shares the huge and primordial feeling of awe and wonder towards nature and the gratitude of having a perception and a reason to be part of the whole.

Well, maybe I am a pagan after all, without knowing it.

Antaeus: I love your "yes." I don't deny that there is an over-arching energy which encompasses all of us, and which I consider to be The Divine. It constantly infuses my soul. I see it as being generated by us, but at the same time, bgger than us - more than the sum of its parts, so to speak. It's kind of like the way my husband and I view our family.. There's Him - a distinct entity. There's Me - another distinct entity. There's Us - a third distinct entity, created by the two of us, but more than just Him + Me. Then there's my daughter. A third distinct entity. There's the parent-child relationship, which again, is more than just Her + Me. And there's our family. Yet another distinct entity that is more than just Him + Her + Me.

Anonymous:
The word pagan simply refers to those people who practice an earth-centered spiritual path. Its roots simply refer to rural dwewellers, as opposed to those who lived in the cities. Why does faith require a document?
As for your 1950's reference - you are confusing paganism with Wicca. While the term Wicca was coined in the 1950's, the underlying beliefs were around long before the birth of Christ. And not all pagans are Wiccan - Wicca is a specific path within paganism. All Wiccans are pagan, but not all pagans are Wiccan. Just like all Catholics are Christian, but not all Christians are Catholic.
And every religion - even those that use the same founding document - has inter- and intra-denominational differences. Just look at the differences within Christianity. There are distinct differences between Catholoicism and Protestantism, but both Catholics and Protestants are Christian.
Break down Protestantism into its various denominations, and you will find more differences. Even within the same church congreagation, different people approach their relationship with the divine with their own slant.
There are different branches of Judaism and different branches of Islam. There are different sects of Buddhism. Every person's faith is as unique as that person - it isn't a Stepford thing.

I think we call ourselves Pagans to signify that we find holiness in the Earth, and in materiality, rather than excusively outside of it. I know that after I rejected Christianity, I read the holy works of many other faiths, and in all of them (even Taoism, to my dissapointment)there was at least one part that explained how the physical world was unimportant, an illusion or a distraction or worse, not a source of truth. In Paganism, it is the physical world and one's experiences or it that are the source of truth and inspiration, worship and devotion.

And, or course, there are founding documents or various faith traditions within Paganism, or which I suppose Wicca is the most popularly known. In Wicca, for instance, there are the writings of Gardner and Valiente, its founders, and even those who have strayed far beyond the traditions they honored usually at least honor the "Charge of the Goddess" which seems to me to be the heart of Wiccan belief. Other traditions all have plenty of documents as well, in part because of their recent revivals. Remember, the Christian Bible did not exist in its present form for centuries after its founding, indeed not until the Roman emperor converted and wanted a standardized version of the faith so he could use it to maintain the unity of his empire. With some luck and lots of work, it is possible that the modern Pagan tradition will never reach that stage, and be able to maintain the diversity it currently enjoys. Not that having a single holy book has helped Christians maintain their unity...

John Conolly:

What a lovely post. It seems like you have given this some real thought and recognize that the answers aren't all that easy. Speaking about your experiences of god(s) (or no gods) seems like a good way to allow a child to come to some sort of conclusion on their own and still have an appreciation and love for the life they have.

I can certainly understand your feeling of tawdriness at finding out about Santa, and the others. My response was much the same. I just really had a hard time telling myself that in order to be an adult I had to give up those things I enjoyed. I just felt like there should still be a place for play, no matter how old someone is.

When I discovered paganism, it allowed me to keep that part of myself and honor that while still taking responsibility for my life and my actions. I hope to give my children someday the ability to walk in the middle.

This world today tends to be divided into either/or. Either imagination OR reason. Rarely does one see both. What I'm afraid of, I guess, is the pendulum swinging so far over to the other side that those of us who seek a balance between imagination, creative expression, and reason/logic will get lost in the shuffle. So many parts of the world look at us in America, see those whose beliefs have become diametrically opposed to science altogether and may ultimately decide that we are becoming increasingly irrelevant when we are just trying (most of us, anyway) to really show what it could mean to be free to believe as one wishes.

Lepidopteryx has touched upon a question behind the question--not just did humans make religion, but did they make Diety(ies) as well, and to what extent they exist aside from being objects of religious activity. In my experience this is one of the areas of greatest diversity in the Pagan community, esp. as compared to other religious communities. I know Pagans who see the Gods as purely psychological constructs with no outside reality whatsoever, and I know Pagans who see the Gods as distint individuals with existances both seperate from each other, their worshipers, and from nature for that matter. Myself, I have experienced Dieties as the consciousnesses that inhabit the various energy systems of the planet, as well as that personality and history that has become part of them since the evolution of humans and the start of them being worshipped as gods. Therefore, to answer the question as to whether mankind created the deities or if they had previous existance, I would have to say the answer is yes. There were (or so they tell me) consiousnesses assosiated with weather systems, ecostystems, geological formations, and living dynamics, such as the mating impulse and the balance between preditor and prey. But when human beings developed the capacity to interact with them, some of these consiousnesses responded to the interaction, and were thereby changed by it, becoming what we now call Gods. This is what some of the Gods I speak too have told me, at least. But then, being Pagan, I sometimes take what even the Gods say with a grain of poetical salt.

Paganplace, Merry Meet... ; )

Vie, You are a good person. I enjoy what you say...it's always with thought and balance.

lep,
You are no slouch as a writer either. lol...

terra

Damn, I wish I could write like this woman.
Of course, all religion is human-made. But that does not make it worthless. Because every person is different, every person perceives her/his place in the world differently, and so connects to it differently.
I am pagan. I see myself a part of a living being known as the Earth, not as a creature set apart to rule over a large rock teeming with other life forms and resources which are mine to do with as I please. My place is not to rule over the earth, to subdue it, but to live wihtin its web of coexistence.
I do not see my gods, goddesses, and other deities as literal beings, but as reminders of how I need to live in order to fill my niche as a part of the interdependent web. They're not arbiters of rewards and punishments, but notes to myself on my spiritual bulletin board.

Well, Vie, I think you're a good person, anyway. I suppose some Catholic stuff can't help but sound condescending, at least to me. By the same token, I'm sure some of our ideas about *freedom* sound pretty alarming to a lot of Catholics.

Especially the way the Church portrays them. :)

I think, the thing about the likes of the 'tooth fairy' and the like, it can be about *play* if in a healthy spiritual context, rather than, say, being baited into believing something, then some kind of bitter disillusionment, as so commonly reported.

To a lot of Pagan kids, it's more familiarly like a ritual, a recognition of what might be, and imagination, itself, I guess I'd say.

Not a matter of belief and reward, I suppose. Play. They're usually quick to figure it out. And play anyway. :)

P.S.:

Then I'd say, "We'll talk about it more when you're bigger."

Priver:

" But if you're going to take away the idea of any deity from your kids, you've got to take away ALL of it. Get rid of Santa, the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny. Drain them of any innocence and all wonder in the world. Spare them disappointment later on. I mean, at least be consistent about it.' I wonder how many would actually go for such a thing?"

I'm an atheist, and, unfortunately, childless, but I've thought about this point many times. I would have to think long and hard before exposing my children to belief in such fairy creatures as Santa or the Bunny. I remember finding great wonder in Santa, and even in the Tooth Fairy, but I also remember feeling the whole thing was rather tawdry when I finally saw behind the curtain.

As for belief in God or gods, I believe the right thing to do would be to explain my experience as my experience. I would have to say, "Many people have claimed to see the face of God, and their descriptions of it are very beautiful [see above; lovely], but whatever eyes you need to see are blind in me. Personally, I don't think there are any gods, but if you think you see or feel God, I can't tell you you don't. Just don't use God as a way of ducking the griefs of this life, because you'll end up ducking the pleasures too."

Paganplace mentioned "the common Catholic attitude toward and portrayal of us, is not as a real faith community, but simply as 'lapsed or otherwise should-be-Catholics' who need to be 'lovingly' talked-down to."
Unfortunately that is true, and I hope I do not come off as condescending. The fact is many traditional Catholics, as members of a body which long preached exclusive salvation, seem to feel that all non-Catholics (Wiccans, Muslims, and even other Christians; "separated brethren" in church parlance) need to be lovingly or sternly brought back into the fold. When it comes to conversion I'm really only interested in those who are looking for a faith home -- a doorway that leads somewhere it's worth trying to get to -- not those who have already found one.
There are many reasons people choose one religion over others, or atheism over religion. It comes down to a gut feeling about which community provides for your individual spiritual needs. Nobody can tell you where your gut, or your spirit, is going to lead you.
Religion is highly social, and I'm convinced that no two members of a given faith believe exactly the same thing. At its best, this forum gives us a glimpse in to what we all have in common.
Am I even a good Catholic? All I can say is that I pray for obedience every day.

Merry meet again, Terra. :)

I read the article in Witchvox about the Pagan Conference and the Christian pouting in Scotland.

I started to post in the paper in reply to some of those comments, but gosh there was so much to say..like yes, there are Old Pagans...we all do not look like Witch Barbi.And as one Scots Witch said..I do not dance so much around the fire...my boobs will flog the unwary..and my High Priest accused me of having a new photo online...it was Shiela na Gig. I get no respect. ;)

I do not understand the need for some to think it is ok to tell those outside of their religion how to live within their religion...and that if you do not you are Hel bound. So what? We do not believe in their hell...Hel is a goddess. They are just annoying.

Well good night, I am off to bed.

Merry Part...
terra

I do think, Priver, maybe we need a little more of 'Mr. Spock's' faith. "That the universe will unfold as it should."

One thing that comes pretty easily to us is the idea that any implied 'Plan' of course involves many different beliefs.

Frankly, the common Catholic attitude toward and portrayal of us, is not as a real faith community, but simply as 'lapsed or otherwise should-be-Catholics' who need to be 'lovingly' talked-down to.

There are few 'ambassadors' cause they have a tendency to figure we're just unruly 'subjects,' and not a 'nation' in their metaphor.

Some know a 'Good Samaritan' when they see one, though. Maybe even a good neighbor.

Hey, though, in a nearly-related topic, I put up some stuff on one of those threads you asked a question on, Priver, FWIW. Seemed important to ya. :)

Blessed be. :)

If only others could recognize those things that you speak of, Veijita.. what a great world it would be!

You are really the kind of ambassador for your faith that we need more of in these really crazy times.

Blessed be. :)

The point that interests me is how many people who claim great faith in their particular deity don't seem to trust (him) to manage those who follow other faith traditions. If my lord or lady is all-powerful and all-good, then those who find the tenets of certain faiths -- or more often the behavior of certain believers -- doubtful or laughable are already in the plan.
I can maintain my own connection using the rituals that work for me, I can recommend my faith and my rituals to others, but I am only one small part of the divine. The most I can do, especially if I'm out there identifying myself with a particular religion (in my case Catholicism) is to model the kind of behavior that will attract others to my community.

At least that is the ideal. I can't fathom that any religion would originally have been founded with the aim of sowing hatred and exclusion.

It really just amazes me how much some people feel the need to try to 'tell us' what we believe, as if we couldn't speak for ourselves.

The more I learn about myself and this earth from both science and magic, the more I just marvel at the wonder, beauty and mystery of it all. The ritual, whatever form it takes, is created by humans to describe and honor something bigger than ourselves. I've always felt that the divine is far bigger than any book, and maybe only partially knowable- and that's ok. If I'm wrong I'm wrong. I'll share a good laugh with whatever/whoever I meet/become in the next world if there even is one.

I have been protected and nudged forward in ways I never expected. I went seeking for something to help me understand myself and my place here, and fell in love with the Goddess Mother Earth in the process.

I don't know about the other pagans on this thread, but I can safely say that my soul is just fine, and gets more whole the more I learn. No need to worry about me. The joy is really palpable. I'm home.

So many wars fought over... what? To discover any god/goddess/deity involves the use of a very powerful but trivialized (at least in the West) imagination to create some sort of standard for how we're 'supposed' to live. So many groups claiming some sort of 'one truth'. One group's imagination, as specified by a book, versus another group's imagination, laid out in their book.

Pagans tend to see the links, commonalities in between all the different types of imagination, creativity, natural processes, and people's experiences, and seek to honor all of it, and use it in ways to heal self and others whenever possible.

I wonder if the atheist sees the end results of these clashes, the power grabbing, etc. and want to get rid of any and all deity. Given the state of affairs today, I can't blame them. They do make some really great points. Still, sometimes I want to say to them, 'hey, I understand your position. And even emphathize with a lot of it. But if you're going to take away the idea of any deity from your kids, you've got to take away ALL of it. Get rid of Santa, the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny. Drain them of any innocence and all wonder in the world. Spare them disappointment later on. I mean, at least be consistent about it.' I wonder how many would actually go for such a thing?

Yeah, it's pretty off-topic. But kind of typical, really... I'm sure you can play Pachebel's Canon or Handel's Messiah there without complaint from Pagans, but apparently homophobia has become such a key article of faith for some Christians that they feel "discriminated against" if Pagans can dance and Christians aren't allowed to incite hatred.

Pagans wouldn't be allowed to say racist or homophobic things, under the college policy, either, if you could find any that wanted to.

Seems straightforward enough to me.

But, maybe not to some Christians: ...didn't manage to *quite* get called an 'idolater' today, but I've been called both an 'atheist' and an 'evil Islamic,' today, and I don't even *count* the threats of Hell, spoken or implied. :)

Better not say I'm bisexual. Oops! :)

Anyway, I can see how some folks might be a bit confused.

Fortunately, my faith's a breath away. Or a dance, or a song, or a shimmer of starlight, a sensation of gravity, ...or the next face I see.

This is a bit off-topic but there is a dispute going on between pagans and Christians at Edinburgh U -- the story is "same-old-same-old" but (as a Christian who acknowledges my pagan roots)I've been enjoying the comments...check out
http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=823222007

Yep, Gary, some things really are pretty simple.

Kind of funny how someone believes that 'following our conscience' is supposed to make us give up a path of, umm, following our conscience. :)

I think he's thinking of *guilt-programming.*

I'm always a bit astounded when we *do* describe our experience, often in such poetic terms, and people come along trying to use cold and sterile and often hostile words to tell us we *don't* experience this great connection and joy they want to claim copyright on.

Guess that calling us 'atheists' or whatever is fine when they're defaming us to each other, or trying to portray us as less-worthy people in public life, but it seems they never let reality stop them when we say, "No, sir, you don't *get* to define us."

Ah,what can you do. :)

Thank you Starhawk for such a short and yet thorough response once again! Your understand of the divine and the cosmos is beyond simple words and highly appreciated!

And for those who wish to use this forum as an avenue to prostheletize your views and "convert" us, remember that it is exactly what you are doing that has chased many people from your religion!

"Your soul is to precious to waste on this!"

On this what? :)

"Paganism is really atheism..."

Umm... No.

"your system is that of a mindless creation in which 'spirits' somehow evolved."

"Hardly 'mindless,' silly. We're minds, and we're in it. :)

Done trying to tell us what we believe is what your ignorance told you it is? :)

"You must decide between monotheism and paganism."

Not really: many forms of Paganism speak of a grand living unity to the universe.

But, obviously, in the terms you're thinking, Pagans chose Paganism.

"Consider this - if religion IS a human invetion- it is totally worthless."

I'm sure that's how you feel about your computer.

I *hope* that's not how you really feel about *humans.*

"We need to wait for biologists to learn how to manipulate our beliefs!"

Umm, what? :) If your religion is in conflict with biology, that's your *religion's* fault.

"If you take your aesthetic sense seriously or your moral judgments seriously, you need to think deeply about what can explain it all..."

Nah, we just thought we'd do random things to freak you out, that's why we got together to celebrate life and spirit in these ways. (yes, that's sarcasm.)

Really. You can't tell me your book 'explains' it all, it just says, 'Believe that this explains it all, even when evidence says this *doesn't* explain it.

Who told you you needed to 'explain it all' to have a religion in the first place? You might be less insecure about your own if you stopped treating it that way.

Starhawk and Antaeus,
Blessings to you both..
Starhawk, as usual your words are beautiful and speak to those who will hear. The others you can not scream it loud enough for them to understand.

I have danced with my gods in the most complete oneness. All I see is proof of my Gods...a wild turkey and her brood is the most beautiful proof of my Lady and Her Lord. The sun beaming down on all the plants and watching the tomatoes ripen and the lemon tree start to blossom...how dear are my Gods. A bee going from one blossom to another...my cats and dogs playing and chaseing each other...the chickens scratching and the hawks circling, all in the cycle of life and more proof.

My soul soars with the love of my gods...I am free and ecstatic. The moon shines down on all... those who call on the Lady and those who do not know Her...love can not be explained...a connection from deep spirit to the Gods can not be expressed, except in poem and prose. In words that paint a picture that reflect our own truth.

I am a bridge from past to future...from earth to sky, from shackled to flying free...ahh my Gods who set my path before me, who lets me fall so that I will learn, then will help me to rise again on strong legs and straight back. I do not bow...I do not stand with bowed head and begging knees...I am the creation of my gods and they do not create garbage. I carry their spark within me and I am arrogant and proud. They help me and I am their hands and heart...we are one.

That is my truth...not from a book, not words of some other, but mine. My words and my truth. And the Gods reveal themselves as each needs them. Those who need the religions of the Book..Blessed are they! May they find in those words what helps them find their God.

My Gods are in the wind and sun, in the rain and moon...in the rose and the thorn. That is what calls to my soul and tells me to arise and come onto Her... No book speaks the language of my soul.

terra

No, I will not read Romans. I rejected the deity depicted in the Bible long ago. It is a deity I cannot either connect with or condone. The actions of the being called God in the Bible are not the actions of any being I would ever consider worshiping.

My connection with nature is not aesthestic alone. It is a direct connection with my heart and my soul, and my entire being. I know that it is real for it transformed me from a cold, emotionless person with no purpose in life to a person filled with joy and a strong connection to ALL THAT IS. I have spoken with my Gods face to face, and have seen them looking back at me, and they have spoken to me with love and caring. I have felt their power move thru me as they have filled me with their holiness. I will not consider abandoning them, most especially for the being depicted in the Bible. And I would never consider asking anyone else, you included, to abandon whatever connection to the divine they have found in their lives.

starhawk, antaeus, please listen to me. Of course there is aesthetic beauty. As C.S. Lewis said in the Problem of Pain chapter 5, "the Holiness of God is something more than moral perfection.... God may be more than moral goodness. He is not less. The road to the promised land runs past Sinai." Read Romans chapter 2 - you have the moral law written on your hearts. What does your conscience say to you?

Consider this - if religion IS a human invetion- it is totally worthless. We need to wait for biologists to learn how to manipulate our beliefs!
If you take your aesthetic sense seriously or your moral judgments seriously, you need to think deeply about what can explain it all...

Thank you, Starhawk, for another beautiful if short posting.

Anonymous: No, I won't read Romans. I read the Bible several times as a child and adolescent, which led me to become an atheist for 10 years. I would probably still be one if I hadn't had a direct experience of the Goddess. I have already decided between monotheism and paganism, and have chosen paganism. Since I am not Judeo-Christian, the commandments do not apply to me, so I don't need to keep them.

Since Pagans don't have the central authority to decree dogma, some pagans may believe in a universe in which spirit(s) evolved after the creation of the universe, but I and I would daresay many Pagans believe that spirit and matter are directly linked and have been from the beginning, and it was an act of spirit as well as matter that began the moment of creation. So instead of the intellegence that made the universe comming from outside, as most monotheists believe, it was the universe itself which willed itself into existance, both as spirit and matter.

As for the true nature of the universe, I experience it when I walk down a wooded path, when I listen to the birds outside the window by my computer, when I nurture plants and watch their progress thru the seasons, when I join hands and look into the eyes of a friend, and when I dance and sing in ecstasy around a hilltop fire. With every breath I breathe the Goddess, and every sight I see is a glimpse of her body. I myself am a living part of her body. I receive the confirmation of this constantly, and I am not alone in this confirmation. That is the nature of the universe I live in.

As for the question of religion being a human construct, I would say I haven't seen conclusive evidence that other species practice anything that could be called a religion, so I would guess it is, or more particularly, the rituals, beliefs, and customs of each religion are human constructs.

Many Blessings

Read Romans 1:20-25. Your soul is to precious to waste on this! Paganism is really atheism... your system is that of a mindless creation in which 'spirits' somehow evolved. You must decide between monotheism and paganism.
Have you kept the commandments perfectly. Let your conscience be the starting point to inform you of the true nature of the universe.
Good luck.