Faith During Wartime

Wow, I may have missed a post or two, but it seems as if all posts from the entity know as "Frank" have dissapeared from this thread. Is that a good thing? It does take the context out of several of our posts, and in future will give us fewer opportunities to attempt to wax eloquent. On the other hand, there are/will be a lot fewer repeatitive hate attacks. What do others think about this censoring/cleaning up of a mature thread?

It's a great achievement for Islamic leaders and scholars as well as Newsweek and the Washington post to present this imperative opportunity for inter cultural and global philosophical dialogue. What's important is that by exchanging our ideas and comments regarding inter religious relations and world events that affect our views of each other as fellow human beings. Since the advent of humanity, We strove to make sense of the world we live in and the lives we've experienced. Worldwide curiosities to learn the true nature of life and our universe is an exceptionally rare virtue upon life on Earth. In other words, we're the only known species on the planet who've pursued to unravel these great mysteries and developed written philosophies based upon our understanding of the world around us.
One such philosophy that lasted throughout the ages of humanity is commonly known as religion and spirituality. Ever since our early belief in the Sky God and the God Mother from ancient Pagan times, we vigorously pursued to unravel the truth about our most profound questions. As any educated person would know that religion and their core beliefs or faith have evolved over time. Paganism, Monotheism and Polytheism have been influenced by humanity as these great philosophies have influenced our perceptions and decisions in life over the ages. Over time humanity has embraced diverse religious faiths and spiritual convictions that continue to influence our behavior in our times and most likely beyond.
What's vital for humanity's progress and even survival is to know the true nature of faith itself. To understand the true origins of faith. But most of all, is to accept the truth for whatever it may be. Each one of us will learn the absolute truth once we die. But until that time comes for anyone of us to depart this world, we really don't know the answer to God's existence nor do we have the absolute truth in regards to the true nature of God. Besides if we did possess the truth, there would've been only one religion on Earth with no diversification of any way, shape of form. There would only be one holy scripture written throughout human history.
Considering one's religious faith to be absolute, while considering others to be false would be ethnocentric at best. While collectively searching to unravel the mysteries on nature, life and the universe through sincere reasoning and serious research would be enlightening at its worst. Most importantly, we must accept the fact is that none of us have conclusive evidence to confirm our core beliefs and there's always an immanent change that our most cherished beliefs could be wrong. Our greatest challenge would be to tolerate the truth no matter what it may ultimately be. With such an open mind, we would be able to overcome any future discovery that would contradict our faith regarding the true nature of life, spirituality and divinity.
Humanity does have the ability to achieve such a social achievement. However, it's solely up to humanity and not any other entity or groups of entities to decide our destinies. Each one of us has a choice to make; either hopelessly engaging into meaningless inter cultural conflicts or combine our scientific and cultural gifts to thrive into an enlightened global civilization that could ultimately expand beyond our solar system. The choice is yours, and the time to make it is now!

Mary:
Maybe you need to look at some of the positives of this war, instead of all of the negatives.

Sometimes to preserve the freedom and rights of people war is a necessary evil.

Mary, you have GOT to be kidding.
The only thing that war preserves is corporate interests.

We in this country have only the illusion of freedom

Barena,

That was absolutely beautiful. If I can teach my future children to live and love in such a way.. well the possibilities are really endless. What an amazing world we could create!

I suspect you're absolutely right. What is needed is balance. no matter what religion you follow.

Let's hope the work is underway. The Lady has already called me. I answered. I'm raring to go..

*rolls up sleeves*... what should we tackle first? So much to be done.. so little time.

Bright Blessings! :)

Starhawk, thank you for your wise, womanish voice.

Starhawk, thank you for your wise, womanish voice.

Wow. I've been reading all these posts and am totally ovrwhelmed by all the negativity going on here. Having been a pagan for over thirty years, raising children of all colors and religions in my home, loving them all, trying to develope "perfect love and perfect trust" between them despite their different faiths has taught me the greatest lesson of all. That there is no faith that soars above another, but there is always a place of balance and peace in the spiritual realm that receives evryone who trys to seek that place out in their hearts and souls. In that place, Pagan, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist....we are all together. Love is the path to that place, it's the most difficult of all roads, it reqiures the deepest understanding of the good and evil within each one of us...as well as the cultures we come from. Will it cure the evils of this world? Maybe not. But it can cure the evils of the worlds we individually impact...and ripple out from there. Such a small bit of practical magick....love and personal sacrifice... so much power in such a small word. Where are the dissenters that revile such a power? Begin at home...teach it to your children and your children's children. Feed them on it, Bathe them in it. Speak the words to them. Fire their passions with it. Heal with it.
War...it is man's creation. It is temporal. The battle for live and livlihood isn't fought in this realm. All pagans should know this...all Christians too. Want to try to stopthis insanity?Then teach your children so they can help heal a world that trembles in fear. Or better yet...create a one that holds new and universal values. Impossible??? Nothing is impossible if you believe. I believe. My kids believe... of course, we also believe in faeries. How silly of us. How marvelous the innocence that believes in the unseen realms. How powerful the faith of love..in any religion.

Sorry bout the length of the ranting last night.

I'm just continually-amazed how some Christians treat us, then try to make all these abstract connections between us and 'evil' in order to justify it.

We should be singing *healing* songs here, for the world and our civilization, not trying to count casualties to justify more casualties.

Abuse of the human spirit, it seems, has just been going on so long that it's become impossible for some to distinguish... and if that isn't an argument for diversity, I don't know what is.

Too much in these 'One True Religions Of Love' just comes out *backwards* for us to buy thinking in that "We're the good guys, you're 'evil'" way.

Certainly, I'd say we're not about to believe a book or a religious affiliation offers any kind of protection from wrongdoing, never mind that *not* believing in it makes us 'immoral, selfish, somehow like Stalin,' or any of the other threats and accusations we hear.

Vilifying innocent people certainly doesn't make your case.

We *do* perceive an interconnection, between you, us, A living Earth, ...and spirit, so beautifully-described in what Terra quoted. It takes some pretty-convoluted chains of unreasoning to insist that somehow *we're bad people* for that ...for disobeying a book that defends its accusations of 'evil' as 'love' by apparently saying it arguably didn't kill more people than Stalin.

And that just doesn't make any sense to me.

John,

Since you like numbers, this is from the Encarta Encyclopedia:

Although the human cost of the war was tremendous, casualty figures cannot always be obtained and often vary widely. Most experts estimate the military and civilian losses of Allied forces at 44 million and those of the Axis at 11 million. The total number of civilian losses includes the 5.6 million to 5.9 million Jews who were killed in the Holocaust. Of all the nations that participated in World War II, the human cost of the war fell heaviest on the USSR, for which the official total, military and civilian, is given as more than 20 million killed. The United States, which had no significant civilian losses, sustained more than 400,000 deaths.

Not sure exactly what he's getting at with those numbers. Sounds like another trap to me.

Just a random, and totally fruity idea from the world of the totally-frivolous, yet utterly threatening and blasphemous 'gnomes and gnomettes' ...

How bout you dudes with the guns stop worrying about what's 'greater and lesser evil' and like, ....wake up and not do 'evil' or something?"

Not to interrupt your "Serious theological debate or nothing."

Feh.

How many would you like, John?

Or Roger?

Roger Smith,

Where did you get those figures? They're surely exagerated. The figure I recall for loss of life in Hiroshima was 100,000. Nagasaki can't have been much more.

And WWII: 40 million? Those can't be combat deaths. You must be including deaths from oppression, such as the Nazi death camps, which can hardly be credited to the war.

Anyway, Antaeus, I hope you'll forgive the rambling. I just think that sometimes we are tempted to be too-defined by outsiders. You have a good name, here, (better, I think, than the largely-random one I chose here) ....Actually, I really saw it when watching some cheesy movie, ...bing.

I met another of our veterans, tonight. Still, like so many, working to protect our country while being called a traitor in his own hometown.

That he still cares about, despite some people mistreating his kids in the name of 'Christianity.'

Thought of your screen name, actually.

A certain amount of, "Oh, Goddess, this is another reminder we're *in it now, aren't we,*"

"Man gets tired
Spirit don't.
Man surrenders
Spirit won't.
Man crawls
Spirit flies
Spirit lives when man dies
Man seems
Spirit is
Man dreams
Spirit lives
Man is tethered
Spirit free

What spirit is, man can be."

--where I got this screen name. :)

Keep your feet, brother. Namaste. :)

Antaeus: "Hmm, I fear I am going to show the diversity within the Pagan community here. You see, I am rather firmly of the belief that I am God, as is everyone else, and everything else, for that matter. In the rituals I participate in it is fairly common for us to salute one another with "thou art God" "thou art Goddess" or more elaborately, "the God and Goddess in me salutes the God and Goddess in you". This is what I believe is meant in the Charge of the Goddess when it says "And if that which ye seek to find you find not within youself you will never find it without".

Don't get me wrong, Antaeus, ..totally 'Namaste.' Thou art thee God.

This is not what this means to certain Christians who are taught that humans are shameful beings externally-created for the express purpose of being inferior to and conditionally-saved by "The Only (but still homicidally-jealous) God."

Trying to shift theological languages around, here. Sorry if I offended, ...actually, I think it's one place where I think we can help Christians with their thing about 'We must all be Jesus, who is humble, yet the all-powerful lawgiver and only (but very jealous) God...

They've actually got an idea where you can 'be God' while being 'humble,' but it has a way of coming out backwards and somehow involving bad things.

Swear to the Gods, people screaming, in a rictus of rage, 'I'm more humble than you, infidel!' while taking a swing or alluding to various weaponry *does* lead one to wonder if the Morrigan really wants you to be Buddhist or if you've just watched too many kung fu movies. :)

That's all. :)

But, anyway, Antaeus, I wouldn't try too hard to affiliate *us* with the Roman Empire. Most of the tolerance and pluralism really had much to do with remnants of the Republic feeling a bit more secure... while the Empire found that while God-Kings have a way of ending up in serious peccadilloes, King-Gods to displace the imperialism onto give you... well, stuff that still hasn't gone away.

It's been overstressed by Christians trying to turn Rome into a morality play to obscure the fact that there's more of the Roman Empire to Pauline Christianity than there ever was of 'Paganism,' but...

In 'Pagan Rome,' we'd *still* be the 'pagani.' Check out the Kybeline prophecy and some of the other stuff that went down: while this may not have been what the average Gods-loving 'Pagan' thought, certainly, in a way, Rome became its own religion of 'control.'

What Christianity became is really an expression of the same sort of problem.

What's usually not mentioned about Constantine is a) the famous battle in which he says Jesus promised him victory, was actually a highly illegal insurrection in which he didn't want to be a mere triumvir, and he needed leverage which only the unwieldy *slave caste* (among which the Christian promises were popular) could provide, and b) He actually worshiped Apollo until his deathbed, (while outlawing Paganism for others) at which point he then is said to have 'converted.'

Our Paganism is not the manipulative, praxis-and-control-oriented thing the Roman *state* became, and in fact, *subsumed and redefined* Christianity to do *better* at its convenience, to much later and ongoing horror...

Our Paganism is the birthright of all peoples.

Apollo is said to speak no untruth. Maybe what's happening now is part of making a great wrong right. Maybe the story isn't what we think it is. , either. But one thing's clear: We must live honestly, or we will find corruption comes.

This is possibly all we can do.

And anyone who told you different,

Is thinking Imperial. And may not even know it.

It's one of the ironies of history that Christianity *became* the Empire.

And the Empire gleefully became Christianity, ...sure, sweep away all the inconvenient 'fallibility' of the diversity of human conceptions of the Gods... all the cultural depth which made Cicero such a pain in the arse. :)

Now that we Pagans are supposedly the 'barbarians'
again, we should remember one lesson:

Never let Rome pick the battlefield.

No, 'Pagan Rome' wasn't the moustache-twisting cartoon villain that some Christians want to make of our heritage, there, (this idea is actually a largely-Victorian construction extrapolated from portrayals of Nero intended to apparently get people strapped into chastity-torture devices) but neither was it necessarily some Pagan paradise.

We may never *really* know, because as we can see here, people who think they're 'righteous' may feel above the truth, if they can even see it.

Some will say that 'changes in religion made Rome fall' ...I think it's more likely that maybe religious complacency changes *when* empires are falling.

Certainly, it's silly to say 'Rome fell for lack of being Christian,' when it *did fall* largely cause Constantine screwed the pooch to take power that wasn't his... and the Christian emperors after him... well, blew the whole deal, for what that was worth.

We're all (supposed to be, anyway) *modern people, now.*

Sure, I'd like the temples back, but ...more than that, I want my American Republic back.

Pardon the lecture, but, that's an angle to the story we don't think about too much... no simple answers as there are.

Just a random idea, really, but maybe the point isn't that some America that never quite was is 'falling,' ...maybe she's just possibly growing into what our common dream says she could be.

And what's 'falling' is just old castles of illusion.

We are not these castles, these buildings, even these words.

Maybe the point isn't 'resurrecting to eternal glory and vindication' like the Christian Jesus: maybe it's, we get cut down like John Barleycorn, and we *get up again.*

And life goes on.

How well is and always has been up to us.

*You can't see no priest to learn of the dead,
But I'll show you beer in a handful of yeast.*

You see, Christians, somewhere along the line you got this idea that *people are really irrevocably 'created to be awful and in need of being controlled.* (Unless of course it suits power to say, 'You're in the 'Image of God, don't question my sexual hangups or scientific illiteracy which have nothing to do with that anyway.')

Actually, we're primates with pack instincts that involve both dominance and submission that you confuse with 'Divine Will' because some folks who pay too much attention to war and breeding control want you to believe that's all there is to life and have discovered that you can be terrorized into compliance and codependence and feel it's a 'religious experience' (as long as it fits certain parameters: if it doesn't, it's obviously a deception of 'Satan,' or 'selfishness, etc, etc, and on and on it goes. )

Just... Breathe.

OK? Chill out a second, and 'look' at me. Look at the next person you see.

Are they really 'inherently evil' and by some cruel property of the universe damned to Hell cause lots of Christians are, frankly, a****les and you'd have to be a total idiot to believe you, even if your source material weren't totally sadistic and self-contradictory?

No.

And you aren't, either.

You are not damned, you are not evil, and I swear to the *Gods* you don't have to be afraid of me and my people in the way this idea leads you to believe.

If your God wants to subject me to particularly sadistic disembowelment for saying so, well, add a little more blasphemy to the supposed sentence. Not my first time around this particular wheel, as it happens, and, well.

What good is it to say that.

Maybe it does some good to say *this* though:

*Don't.*

*Be*

*Afraid.*

'Look' at me. Look at a human being. Look at anything, ...honor your Jesus, as I happen to, because of a few who were kind to me who may have thought better of him than as a source of shame and threat and degradation and war and desperate clutching for control over a humanity that you taught was *so awful* that we must be the 'image' of a very irrational view of 'God.'

Frankly, Christians, *your* god is bigger than this, too.

"Humbly," prithee:

Stop acting like he's a poop-throwing alpha male monkey who's going to flip out and mind control otherwise-evil-anyway-'Islamic' terrorists cause he happens to decide all of a sudden that homophobia is a big deal and good idea?

Let my people 'go.'

Better yet, wake up and prioritize.

Won't you be my neighbor?

Morning Glory Zell attended several of the Heartland Pagan Festivals in the late 80's and early 90's. She was a living resourse for Pagan chants of every description and purpose. I just wish she had recorded some of them.

I like your verse better...lol.

I love chants...I took a class with selena fox a couple years ago...it was amazing, I felt like we were going to blow the roof off with just the power we raised with the chant.

terra

My favorite...next to Pagan Musing.

The Enchanted Loom

(words & music by Jesse Wolf Hardin with Loba)

"It’s said there are invisible threads of energy binding all the shamans of the world to one another.... and something connects each of us as well: the empathics and sensitives who dwell on the edge, who hear the calling, and keep the pledge. Practitioners of authenticity and wholeness, reinhabiting sacred self and sacred land. Seekers of significance and purpose, the last to give up the ancient ways, and the first to explore the new. Those its said may cry too hard, or laugh too loud.... that dare to care, so much! Each an integral component, of a lineage of place holders: unbridled children and wizened elders, willful wilders, wiccans and wizards on whose souls rest the responsibility to invoke a new/old Earth, an Earth once again green and growing, dynamic and diverse, feral and free. Our shared ministry is this most insistent calling. And our liturgy.... is our love. Conservationists, restorationists and healers. Teachers, activists and defenders. Artists, ritualists and celebrants– all rare conduits of clarity in an age of blinding noise and neon. We’re the reinhabitants of Ectopia and Katuah, the verdant Northeast and the mountains and deserts of the mystical Southwest, of watersheds and wildernesses, sacred groves and organic farms. In tryst with rivers and forests, promised to a particular valley, or courting all the Earth in a gypsy’s search for home. We’re returning to an older way of being as well, to the great mystery– humbled by our place in the awesome harmonic Whole. We’re determined to dance out our individual dances, never losing step with that greater choreography of which we are a part. Like the fabled Alice, we each pursue furtive magic through the openings in the roots of trees and the imaginations of children. Getting down on our hands and knees, we make our way back to that Gaian Wonderland we can never really leave.
I’m excited! The energy is incredible. The transition, no matter how bright, demands that we look! Unwavering vision. Unwavering intent. I’m excited! Because I sense more acutely than ever our connection to one another, and to those spirits and life forms we call “other.” It’s not really a thread that connects us after all, you know– but strands of a miraculous web. We can feel each other from great distances, through its delicate vibrations. We have only to reach out now, along these fibers, over roaring rivers, underneath a canopy of trees, in order to touch the source.... through the warp and weft of interconnected consciousness. Though we may live and work in different places, we are but one tribe, with a single unified cause. Champions of sentience and sacrament, bodily extensions and voluntary agents of holy Will.

The whispering river and the rustling of the leaves are this inspirited Whole, trying to get our attention. Gaia, The Earth, is speaking to us through the voices of all creation. Yes, I’m excited! I stand as if barefoot, out of breath, staring wide-eyed at the wonder of the magic exploding before us. I’m thrilled to witness this re-becoming, this song... as we’re each reintegrated into the living, breathing flux, each made to feel we belong. I’m thrilled, because as loving and responsive care-takers, we’re fulfilling our true evolutionary role, redeeming our species as well as our selves.

No, we humans are not the brain of Gaia, the divine director– the anointed weaver that sets design rules for the patterns in rock, the flow of fire, the perfect twists in peach-colored sea shell. But we are the voluntary magic that fills the enchanted loom, reaching out in our efforts to restore the planet. Reaching out for each other. Reaching down deep again with our splayed toes, our anxious probing roots.... embracing the innermost heart of the Mother Earth, and thereby reaching out, out– until the sun encircled.

Terra:

The final verse I have is a little different:

I am but a monkey
You are but a monkey
We are all but monkeys,
Turn the world around.
We are all but monkeys,
Be the hundredth monkey,
Turn the world around.

Antaeus,

We come from the mountain, living in the mountain,
VERSES: Go back to the mountain, turn the world around!
We come from the mountain;
Go back to the mountain, turn the world around!

(Also: spirit, ocean, prairie, forest, river, water, etc.)

I'm the hundreth monkey, we're a hundred monkeys,
Be the hundreth monkey, turn the world around!
Be the hundreth monkey,
Be the hundreth monkey, turn the world around!
turn the world around!
We come from the fire, Go back to the fire,
turn the world around.
-------------

I have a picture of Lancelot...lol, the only living Unicorn, that Tim Zell created. His story The Other People is one of my Pagan favorites.

IO Evohe,
terra

Look at the numbers and tell me who is greater evil throught out humanity and recorded history.

1st WW : 10 million death
2nd WW : 40 millino death

Hiroshima/Nagashaki Japan Nuke : 3 million death

Iraq : 700,000 death
Afghanistan : 350,000 death
Iraq before war embargo : 500,000 death
Bosnia : 120,000 death

those are few examples of recent one that we know some are still not over.

Crusades : 2 million ++ death
Spanish Inquisition : 1.5 million ++ death

one thing is common among above those all are done by Christian leaders and those followers of the religion call LOVE your enemy.

Now war/battle by Muslim army according to documented non islamic historians:

Take control twice of Jerusalem by Omar/Saladin : less than 100 killed because the Christian army fled of the battle so the muslim army just walked in without blood.

Muslim invasion of ancient persia: less than 150 killed. Still Jews live in Iran largest in the middle east after Israel.

Muslim invasion of Rome : less than 50 in the battle and they surrendered and paid ransom not much blood was lost.

Muslim invasion of Spain / Granada : less that 500 same the Spanish army fled the war against the invading large muslim army. No force conversion and Jews lived there more in number than Jerusalem that time not a single convertion was documented. Chief of Ottoman army was a Jewish man fighting with the Muslim soldiers. It was politics of nationality not religion, today Jews still live in Turkey in large numbers.

Muslims in India : no recorded war but trade of muslim merchants and they ruled over 1200 years and still today Hindus are majority almost 90 percent no force conversion to Islam

Recent history: Sept 11, 3000 death blamed to Muslim fanatics.

Filipine : total killed by terrorism less than 100 in last 10 years against Govt. policy of oppression.

Thailand : less than 50 by bombs and others including army planned incidents.

Palestine : Hamas and other fanatics killed less than 5000 in 60 years of fighting with the state of Israel in return Israel killed over 60,000 +++ 3 million homeless.

This is it.

Add up the numbers you will learn the truth. Know the truth and truth will set you free (The Bible -John) who is greater evil?

Peace and just stop blaming Muslims, learn history and you will see the light why the living evil man Bush has said Islam is peace because this is the truth and the number tells it all. We know 700K killed in Iraq but the media will not say it because they are Muslims but if one die in Israel by a Muslim Palestinian the whole world will cry wolf. Who is the evil?

Antaeus:

"Song of Myself" is my favorite Whitman poem too.

Paganplace:

Hmm, I fear I am going to show the diversity within the Pagan community here. You see, I am rather firmly of the belief that I am God, as is everyone else, and everything else, for that matter. In the rituals I participate in it is fairly common for us to salute one another with "thou art God" "thou art Goddess" or more elaborately, "the God and Goddess in me salutes the God and Goddess in you". This is what I believe is meant in the Charge of the Goddess when it says "And if that which ye seek to find you find not within youself you will never find it without".

But rather than quote more Pagan scripture, I will instead quote my favorit American Poet. (Actually, I should also disclose he's my favorite writer in the English language period).

"I have said that the soul is not more than the body,
And I have said that the body is not more than the soul,
And nothing, not God, is greater to one than one's self is,
And whoever walks a furlong without sympathy walks
to his own funeral drest in his shroud,
And I or you pocketless of a dime may purchase the pick
of the earth,
And to glance with an eye or show a bean in its pod confounds
the learning of all times,
And there is no trade or employment but the young man following it
may become a hero,
And there is no object so soft but it makes a hub
for the wheel'd universe,
And I say to any man or woman, Let your soul stand cool and composed
before a million universes.

"And I say to mankind, Be not curious about God,
For I who am curious about each am not curious about God,
(No array of terms can say how much I am at peace about God
and about death.)

"I hear and behold God in every object, yet understand God
not in the least,
Nor do I understand who there can be more wonderful than myself."

That was an exerpt from "Song of Myself" by Walt Whitman. And in another place in the same poem:

"Swiftly arose and spread around me the peace and knowledge that pass all the argument of the earth;
And I know that the hand of God is the promise of my own,
And I know that the spirit of God is the brother of my own;
And that all the men ever born are also my brothers, and the women my sisters and lovers;
And that a kelson of the creation is love; "

I love Walt Whitman.

Anyway, in as much as God exists, I am a part of that, as is every planet and star, every flower and ant, every poem and song, every place of worship and everyone who worships. I'm afraid I don't recognize any God to which I am not connected. I think this is part of the difference in the hard and soft polytheisms within Paganism, and between those with a strong Pantheistic element and those with whom it is weaker or not present at all. Oddly enough, I am usually disagreeing more with the soft polytheists, since even though I see the gods as part of the physical universe, I also see them as distinct individuals, and the soft polytheists often see diferent gods as aspects of the God and The Goddess rather than as seperate entities in their own right.

Anyway, Paganplace, many blessings to you, and to the acceptance of diversity within the Craft.

Hi, Rock. *Thought* you were being thoughtful there for a minute, but there's still something we can speak to.

No, we don't think we're 'God,' at least any more than we think *you* are.

I see you say this:

"Is not our nature to hate, steal, lie, cheat, get over, be number one, egocentric, vainity, and every other thing that our very own conscience speaks to us about."

No, it's not our nature. Who taught you that, about yourself, about us, about everyone else in the world?

" If this is true how much time do i/we have to to entangle oneself in arguments about whether or not paganism is a religion,"

No, you don't. It is.

Don't lump us in with pedophiles. Trust me, Christianity is not the source of all the world's ills, but to my mind, you have no basis to speak on that.

As for thinking 'God' has something to do with your forms, also, this is something you shouldn't assume is meaningful when you talk to us.

I'm well-aware, though that you were taught the things about us that you've repeated here.

They tried to teach me the same thing.

You have no copyright on goodness, and, no, people aren't as inherently 'evil' as you say.

You want to help serve the world, reduce suffering, and do measurable good, well, great. You'll probably find Pagans there, not announcing themselves or using supposed kindness to coerce or denigrate non-believers.

Perhaps while you 'take the credit' and say these things about us.

No, we don't have big charitable foundations, because we don't in general feel the need to accumulate vast surplus wealth to fill some *hole* in our lives, (I'm always saying, stop screaming that 'sex sells' if you're not willing to stop *repressing sex with one hand and offering material assuagements with the other.* ) ...and then give some away to assuage the guilt, (or the gilt, for that matter.)

But we're ...good people, Rock. Good enough to *take* morality in our own hands, to love life and love people, not out of fear of punishment for our wicked ways, but because there *is* something good, and yes, Godly, to our seeing, in humanity. In Creation, if you like.

We don't need to fight to 'prove' human belief is the *center of the universe* in order to feel suitably 'humble.'

We find your 'humility' unconvincing, and your insinuations that we must think we're 'God' for not obeying *you* *less so.*

Arrogance expressed through passive-aggression is still arrogance.

But you seem to want to be good to people, Rock.

In this we are your friends.

Believe *that.*

Anomymous Rock wrote:

"Go ahead, be a god, make your own way. Some of you think I'm going to pull the "Hell" card out, but I'm not. If such a place or like place exist I am sure that every self centered, smarter than God, lover of self, who does not truly evaluate their true thoughts or actions, will be there, regardless of religion."

Did you ever really try to understand paganism?

Who are you calling smarter than God, lover of self?

Paganism is a religion that is way, way older than your god (ie. Jesus) will ever be. So are many other religions.

I never ceases to amaze me that you people think you have the right way and everyone else has the wrong way. See my post above about world population and christianity!

Hmmm...I thought Pagan Rome fell because the Emperor Constantine had a vision of the cross in the sky and heard the words "with this sign you will conquer". When he won his next battle, he converted to Chrisianity and then set about converting everyone else in the Empire. (or was that just a myth?) Eventually, the loving Christians slaughtered teachers of all other religions, and of the forms of Christianity they disagreed with, then destroyed all the books and works of art connected to those beliefs they could find, and either destroyed the places of worship as well or converted them to churches. This doesn't sound much like the message of Christians becoming the meek servants of all. Lets face it, if the Roman Christians had remained true to the self-efacing version of Christianity that anonymous above has described, the Roman Empire would have remained multi-cultural and multi-religious, and the ancient Pagan religions would never have been forcibally repressed.

I made the above comment that's Anonymous.

To Antaeus:

At the witch's store that my husband and I both teach in she had a sign put up for donations to be sent to Military pagans, so my husband and I collaborated on making bags for stones or cards or whatever they're allowed to have. We sent out quite a few before we were done. Just a thought.

"(For those Pagans in the group--are you familiar with the chant that starts "we come from the sky-eye, flying in the sky-eye"? I think it might be called "Turn the World Around" and was actually featured on the Muppet Show way back in the 70's. Morning Glory Zell added a verse about being the hundredth monkey, and ever since it has been one of my favorite chants)."

I love that chant too. It's one of my favorites, especially since i was raised on the Muppet show.. :)

You raise a really good point. It's one thing to answer honest questions about why we think and feel the way we do about our faith, but it's certainly another to constantly have to reply to such obvious goading, based solely on ignorance. Where do we draw the line? There seems to be no moderator to insist on respect for everyone on here like there seems to be on other threads.

Why should I as a Christian be any more concerned about what people think of my religion as they are about what i think of theirs. First of all Jesus never advocated violence of any sort. The "enemy" in the home would first be the Jewish person (they were the first christians)who would have the audacity to leave Judism, family, and such, and join up with the so called christ or king. That's a lot of pressure, as it would be for anyone of any religion leaving their culture/family for another religion. At the base level, christianity is about the transformation of self--from being totally self surving to become a servant to all, regardlass of who they are or believe. That was the message that transformed the known world and bought down the roman empire; to the extent that the ceasar put on a robe and declared himself peter jr. It is the same unchanging message of Acts 2:38. Christianity is a message of peace in a paradox, that through apparent weakness (the cross death) come strength (spirit of God in ones life). Now tell me, who in this world wants to be or appear weak? Is that not against out nature? Is not our nature to hate, steal, lie, cheat, get over, be number one, egocentric, vainity, and every other thing that our very own conscience speaks to us about. If this is true how much time do i/we have to to entangle oneself in arguments about whether or not paganism is a religion, or that christianty is the cause of all the worlds ills. Pagans, christians (by name only), muslims, cults, pedophiles, what and whoever, are allowed by God to live their life however they want. just don't use God or christians as scapgoats when everybody is individually responsible for their actions. Go ahead, be a god, make your own way. Some of you think I'm going to pull the "Hell" card out, but I'm not. If such a place or like place exist I am sure that every self centered, smarter than God, lover of self, who does not truly evaluate their true thoughts or actions, will be there, regardless of religion.

Jacob, Thanks for coming here! I did need your help!

WHAT?,

would you care to answer my post above. You are NOT the norm, far from it. YOU, dear Sir or Maam, have no clue! You are nothing but a follower (sheep)! You have no original thought of your own!

(God) "IT" as IT is properly called is many things to many people. You think you will go to heaven in the hereafter? HAH! My grandmother, Strong German Woman she was, always told me that if there is a heaven or hell she'd come back and tell me! Guess what, she didn't! Wonder why? If anyone could have acomplished it she would be the one!

My PAGAN FRIENDS, keep fighting, never, ever let the nincompoops of this world put you down! They are the ECLATi-OFFs and they will die because there is not light (PHOTONS) in them!

AHHH, and last but not least WitchQuestion:

You are nothing but a WHAT? or a FRANK. So sad for you. Life IS a highway and YOU are NOT going my way! Thank the might ECLAT and the GODESS for that!

Blessed be, my friends!

What?:

Godless pagan? Now there's an oxymoron if I ever saw one. :P

Wow, the conversation was really hopping today while I was at work.

First, to go back a bit, I would like to thank all of you who commented on the issue I raised about my friend who will shortly be serving in Iraq. It is always good to hear other perspectives, and I believe I will try to find out what sort of talisman I could give him that he would actually be able to carry, since I know the military has regulations about such things.

Second, I had read the posts in witchvox about responding to critisism of Paganism, and I feel that in public forums such as this, every attack does need to be answered, as otherwise the numbers of people who read but don't post (until quite recently this included me) will think we don't have answers to the issues raised. On the other hand, it might be possible to come to some agreement amoung ourselves to perhaps limit our responses to some of the more trollish posters like What?, so that they don't totally control the converstation by constantly repeating the same inane and irrelevant critisisms just to have us all post answers to them.

Speaking of which...

What?:

You again miss the point of Paganism. We do not believe in a creator that exists outside of reality, so we don't praise reality instead of its creator, but as something that was given birth by the universe itself. I actually don't use the term "creation" with reference to reality, since that is not an accurate reflection of my view of reality. And speaking as a Pagan, I don't know of many Pagans who think they have the answers, at least in regard to religious faith, for anyone other than outselves. We all have to live in the world that we experience, and in the world that I have experienced, Paganism is the belief system that comes closest to explaining everything that has happened to me.

What makes you think we haven't cured cancers, changed the weather, and are lessoning the effects of global warming? We are the hundredth monkey, my friend. (For those Pagans in the group--are you familiar with the chant that starts "we come from the sky-eye, flying in the sky-eye"? I think it might be called "Turn the World Around" and was actually featured on the Muppet Show way back in the 70's. Morning Glory Zell added a verse about being the hundredth monkey, and ever since it has been one of my favorite chants).

>>Paganplace:
I think, Lepi, that they really don't understand that spirituality does *not* have to be about acheiving control or numbers. Let's not be goaded. Certainly not asked in fair ways, but it's a fair enough question, 'what the heck is this magic all about.'

I just don't think they care to understand the answers.

Oh, and you pagan, godless wonders have the answers for us.

You have theory, my friend. Erroneous at that.
..goddesses, witches, worshiping the creation..

I guess if a friend of yours invented something good for your daily use, you would worship and praise the creation, not the creator.

Like talking to people who live in a Grimms Fairy Tale book.

Yeah, right.

>>I the Witch will gather from you

From Merriam Webster

witch
7 entries found for witch.
To select an entry, click on it.
witch[1,noun]witch[2,verb]water witchwitch doctorwitch hazelwitch huntwitch of Agnesi

Main Entry: 1witch
Pronunciation: 'wich
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English wicche, from Old English wicca, masculine, wizard & wicce, feminine, witch; akin to Middle High German wicken to bewitch, Old English wigle divination, and perhaps to Old High German wIh holy -- more at VICTIM
1 : one that is credited with usually malignant supernatural powers; especially : a woman practicing usually black witchcraft often with the aid of a devil or familiar : SORCERESS -- compare WARLOCK
2 : an ugly old woman : HAG
3 : a charming or alluring girl or woman
4 : a practitioner of Wicca
5 : WITCH OF AGNESI

So, which witch are all of you witches?

Its so confusing.

According to Merriam Webster..there are at least 6 of you.

Are you the Samantha-type, Endora-type or the Wicked one of the West-type?? Alluring or hag?

Which witch programs does a Wicca witch watch?

Very pretty, Terra. :)

Kind of makes me proud to be Pagan, sometimes, when I see the people. :)

Don't let it get to you, Gaby. The world teaches itself, in some ways faster than others. These guys, they're just more than a little afraid. Maybe they'll figure out what of, eventually: and they've got people in their own religion who might help out.

And, hi, Jacob. :) One of our more courteous visitors. Welcome back. :)

Frank and What....

No Pagan needs to answer to you.

Ashes

I rise,
I soar,
I bend,
I sing,
I fly on wings of destiny.

I shape
I braid,
I tie the knots,
I am the teller of things to come.

Winds that whisper in the trees,
Storms that pass away unseen
I the Witch will gather from you
The elements that will create and renew.
I will walk upon this Earth
Again the lines of death and rebirth.
Fires that burned you sent to me
I was ash in a muddy stream.
Fire and water now tell what I should know...
For I will reap what you have sown.

terra gazelle

You know what, What? Faith isn't about keeping score. Or maybe it is, to you. Poor you.

You know, Frank, there are certain people on these blogs that are intolerant ignoramuses.

At least, I try to be inclusive and non-judgmental when it comes to other faiths. You, Frank, etal., are extremists of the worst kind. You think you have the answer because a bunch of old papyrus tells you so. Also, let me tell you, if you want to talk about being the norm,out of a world population of 6.6 billion, only 2.1 billion are bible based (meaning catholics, protestants, mormons, jehovah witnesses, amish, etc. etc. etc.) That is only 32%, the other 68% believe in something else.

There are many of us who differ with your believes. And that is our right, unless of course, you do not believe in the Constitution of the United States.

You belittle everyone elses religion, yet try to shove yours down everyone's throat. If you are not willing to engage in dialogue, then maybe you should "go have your hissy-fits on blogs that are just for yourselves."

Pagan:

You're right. Faith is not a numbers game, and that was, at least in part, the point I was tryng to make. I guess I didn't make it very clearly.

Perhaps I should have phrased it as a hypothetical question:
If I were the only person on the planet who believed as I do, would that make my belief wrong?

I think, Lepi, that they really don't understand that spirituality does *not* have to be about acheiving control or numbers. Let's not be goaded. Certainly not asked in fair ways, but it's a fair enough question, 'what the heck is this magic all about.'

I just don't think they care to understand the answers.

To What?:

I haver personally witnessed not only endurance and inner strength, but also strength from belief in an idea that all of us are interconnected to everyone and everything. An ability to see life as joyous and sacred in everything we are and do.

Who said anything about us being made in the image of anyone or anything? Certainly wasn't the pagans.

So what is your point?

How about asking questions, rather than attacking for once? you might be surprised.

Paganplace,

'Or is it'....question form..is not accusation..it is a Q-U-E-S-T-I-O-N. The burden is on the recipient of the question to qualify.

Get a degree, my friend. It is your cynicism that prompts a remark such as yours.

What?:

Since when does one have to be a member of a majority to be valid?
Bear in mind that Christians were once a very small cult.
And if you want to talk about sheer global numbers, I believe that Islam would top the list.
And what exactly is the "norm" for religious beliefs?

Frankly, 'What,' I think you're in no real position to be mocking people when you're insisting on some pretty wild stuff, yourself, and apparently accusing people of 'black magic.' :)

Gaby,

Yes, and Ive seen yours and others who think they are the center of the universe drible here also.

Get over it...pagans and atheists will never be the norm, the majority, however you want to spell it. So go have your hissy-fits on blogs that are just for yourselves.

Thats a brash statement...'we are more willing to accept it'

Hogwash and balderdash

I have personally witnessed not only endurance and inner strength, but also strength from belief in a creator God from persons of a young age to advanced age...the ones of more advanced years beyond childhood having a fundamental realization that God is not responsible for our diseases we have, rather our own progressive degeneration being at the root of cause. Additionally, each of these faithful having the realization, too, that God does allow life to be taken, but He will certainly bring it back once again when we are resurrected.

So, keep your Zeus', Apollo's, witchcraft, sorceries...whatever. There are many more out here 'willing to accept' not only the above but also see the same clearly that they werent made in the image of a half man/half horse, nor would they even identify any aspect of their life with such foolishness.

WICCAN,

I know that. Frank just has annoyed me one time too many. He is such a pompous ass he just wants to make me vomit.

WHAT?

My comment to Frank applies to you as well. I've seen your dribble on the other blogs and I am not impressed.

I think, Frank, it would be more helpful to understand that this 'Magic' is first and foremost one of our *teachers,* ...it's about perfecting intent and understanding the effects of our actions, first and foremost. It's about seeing where we express power in our lives, ...not some means to try and express control over others, even by impressing folks with 'signs and wonders.'

If I busted some 'magic' of the kind you seem to expect, what would you do? Freak out, in one way or another. Frankly, your worldview wouldn't be up to it. You still see these things in terms of control and coercion. And besides, it would just obscure the point that the world *is* 'magic' in important ways.

To 'solve global warming,' what am I gonna do? Ask a volcano to blow, and like Pinatubo, give us a brief reprieve from warming effects, but ...then what do we get: Not only all the extra C02 and sulfur dioxide from the eruption, but, even more of the irresponsible behaviour that makes it worse.

Everything's connected. We're part of it, in everything we do. Part of the problem with your literal mindset, Frank, is your insistence on certain ideas tied to this, along with the 'us vs them' mindset... which means you can't seem to understand what's being said to you.

I don't 'say what I can do.' Certainly wouldn't advertise if I were capable of the 'heavy lifting' you seem to expect me to demonstrate. :)

Just cause someone cans say, 'Yeah, I'm pretty strong' doesn't mean they have to rival Atlas. (look what happens when you try that.) :)

So I'm gonna keep you guessing: right now your only *context* for this or any other strange-to-you idea would seem to be fear and adversarial treatment.

Why should I encourage that?

To What?:

And yet, Christians believe that if they pray to god, they can get the same things done. Why is what others have admitted to in this discussion so different from that?

Frank asked us to do magic to cure cancer. Yet, when we asked him to pray to God to cure cancer, he had no response. It's all the same. We just seem to be more willing to accept it.

What?:

That's not how it works. Please go back a few posts and read my response to Frank.

Why dont you leaping gnomes and gnomettes just sprinkle some eye of newt powder on ol' Frank.

Hey, its from your Mother Earth...should work, huh?

..Or..how about this. Pray fervently to your old 'god' friend...you know, the guy thats half horse/half man to take care of ol' Frank. (or has he evolved now to half donkey/half chicken???..coulda lost his/its powers if that happened, tho)

..or is the magic(k) youre referring to just plain ol black magic??

Enlighten us...who are the 'ladies' you speak of?
Let us know their power and from whence it comes.
(Ooohhh, now their admiting they have magic power, folks....)

Gaby-

We can only work magick with the intended's permission, and Frank ENJOYS being hateful, venomous, etc. Besides, we'd have to bind him to us, and I for one want to keep as far as possible from him. I tried to give him to the Lady, but She wouldn't take him. Sigh...

FRANK, frank(ly) you are an idiot! That is putting it as kindly as I possibly can.

Terra, Pagan, Lep, and the others would never to speak to you that way, so I am doing it.

Your discombobulated posts are an affront to every rational being.

May the ladies could work some magick on you and shut up your hateful, venom-spewing, evil mouth!

OK Frank, let's go through this again.

**islam is very structured. it provides not only a belief system but a method by which you must live your daily life. after islam means SUBMISSION.
you cannot be islamic unless you believe in and follow the koran. therefore, to be islamic you must beleive in all those things i hae quoted from the koran. its not a suggestion, its a demand of islam. dont blame that on me i did not write the darn thing, or set up the rules for islam.
as i have said GOOD ISLAMICS ARE EVIL but bad islamics - those who reject the vile verses of the koran can be good people, but then they are not really islamic under the rules established by islam.
got a broblem with the rules - blame the rule maker not me.**
The same can be said of those who follow the Bible. It says that homosexuals are to be killed. If your next door neighbor is a gay man, and you don't beat him to death, are you a bad Christian? It says that witches are to be killed. If you don't burn Terra's house down with her in it, are you a bad Christian? It says that disobedient children are to be stoned. Does that make parents who choose less drastic forms of discipline for their children bad Christians?At one point in the NT, Jesus is quoted as saying that he came with a sword, to set brother against brother, son against father. If my Christian parents don't excise me from the family portraits because I am pagan, does that make them bad Christians?

**as a pagan you have no fixed rules so the concept may be strange for you. you cannot apply the rules of your religion to the religion of others. and in islam the rules are fixed.**
Many of the "rules" of paganism are derived from the laws of nature, which are prety consistent. And there are also some ethical rules that apply across the boatd - things like not attempting to nterfere with another's free will, not using magic maliciously.

**and majic - well how would bringing peace to the world be coercive?**
Peace is more than an absence of war. True peace requires a change of attitude and a desire for true harmony, not merely an eternal standoff. You can't force changes in another's mindset - it has to be voluntary. Otherwise, it's really no different from swordpoint conversions, and I think we all know how effective that is at fostering peace.

**and then there is all that you can do when you stop global warming by a spell or appeals to ghe goddess.
its your religion and you say you can do it, so do it.
it appears you have the honor of being in a religion that can do majic - your rules not mine - so lets see a little majic. cure cancer for us. or maybe you can change the weather and make the rain fall where there is no rain.**
That's not how majic works. We are A PART OF the natural world, not APART FROM it. Any time you attempt to subvert natural law, whether by majic or technology, you set into motion changes that you could not aniticipate and cannot control. Nothing exists in a vacuum. And there is no Undo button for things like cancer or global warming that will fix it all in one swell foop.

**im not making fun of your religion - im just asking you to do what you say you can do, at least on the wicca web sites.**
Really? Could have fooled me.

**come on pagan, give us a break - spread the wealth for us, or admit you cant.**
I could as easily say to a Christian, "You claim to worship a god who can miraculously heal people. Pray to him to cause my amputatated toes to grow back. If you pray for it, and it doesn't happen, then your religion is invalid."

To: Frank Collins the hate monger

Read this chapter from the Bible you never read and I see you as a sick person belongs does not belongs to civil society. Now and then your out of context quotes from Islamic books and other religion at the name of Christianity is worst than a murder to a faithful.

Read your Christian source first before you talk. It is a waste to debate this hate mongers in a public forum. Anyway I am making it easy for you to read this that includes your disported christianity and other major faiths as you do not have time to read the bible or faith books because of the porno sites you spent on your day.

From the Bible....

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB)

and this:

"I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished! Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law. (Luke 12:49-53)

A prescription for internecine warfare and martyrdom!

Couple it with 300 years of war against "infidels," 350 years of choice between conversion or a date with the Iron Maiden, the burning or drowning of witches and heretics, Srebrenica and the genocide in Bosnia…But no one asks, "Is Christianity a violent religion?"

Consider this:

(10) When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.

(11) And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.

(12) And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:

(13) And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:

(14) But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.
16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
18 That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God. (Deuteronomy)

And then consider Deir Yassin, Abu Shusha, Al-Dawayima, and dozens of other massacres by Zionist groups like the Irgun. Consider the disproportionate use of force in last summer's bombardment of Lebanon.

But no one would dare ask, "Is Judaism a violent religion?"

Consider this:

"Till at last the gallant Lakshman and the godlike Rama came,
And they swept the hosts of Ravan like a sweeping forest flame,

"And their shafts like hissing serpents on the falt'ring foemen fell,
Fiercer grew the sable midnight with the dying shriek and yell!

"Dust arose like clouds of summer from each thunder-sounding car,
From the hoofs of charging coursers, from the elephants of war,

"Streams of red blood warm and bubbling issued from the countless slain,
Flooded battle's dark arena like the floods of summer rain,

"Sound of trumpet and of bugle, drum and horn and echoing shell,
And the neigh of charging coursers and the tuskers' dying wail,

"And the yell of wounded Rakshas and the Vanars' fierce delight,
Shook the earth and sounding welkin, waked the echoes of the night!" (Ramayana)

Then think upon the 2002 Gujarat massacre, in which 2000 some Muslims were brutally murdered; countless houses, stores, places of worship burnt down.

Think upon the pogroms of 1984 which resulted in the deaths of 4000 Sikhs at the hands of Hindus angry over the assassination of Indira Gandhi.

Think of the Tamil Tigers who have killed tens of thousands in suicide bombings, assassinations, and ethnic cleansing pogroms.

But no one asks, "Is Hinduism a violent religion?"

Consider this:

"The cakravartin shall come out at the end of the age, from the city the gods fashioned on mount Kailasha. He shall smite the barbarians in battle with his
own four-division army, on the entire surface of the earth. ... Raudra Kalki shall smite Krinmati .... then they shall go to the city the gods fashioned on Mount Kailasha where Cakri lives." (Kalachakra Tantra)

Ponder Zen and the brutal and suicidal Samurai culture. Ponder the Box Rebellion which slaughtered tens of thousands of Chinese Christians. Ponder Tibetan Buddhism and the warrior monks of Lhasa and the countless uprisings of the Tibetan people led by Buddhist monks since communist China took over Tibet in 1951. Ponder the actions of the predominantly Buddhist Sinhalese in Sri Lanka, where civil war has caused the deaths of an estimated 60,000 individuals. Ponder the Democratic Karen Buddhist Association who practices ethnic cleansing and salts their homeland with land mines.

But would we ask, "Is Buddhism a religion of violence?"

No most part it is not. Talk about Islam it is not voilent and the texts are in the Quran is in context of self defence to protect the new community of believers called muslims then 1400 years ago from the idolators in Arabia. Please read and note Islam is the only I repeat only religion that is completely documented from A-Z from books to prophets acts and his followers and accpeted by historians to date. So read and learn to share this buautiful world with many religion and no religion together except this hate monger idiots like Frank are the real problem. Ignorance should be fight with education but hateful mongers are not. Shame on you Frank for boasting Jesus to hate Muslims and shame on your mother that did not teach you to be a good christians.

Peace to you all.

Frank,

To be Christian, you must follow the teachings of Christ, and follow the word of the Bible, correct?

And this means, based on Jesus's teachings, that we must believe in the books of the Old Testament as Canon, including Leviticus. Leviticus is a very bloody book of the Bible. It preaches that we should take our kids out and kill them if they are unruly. It says that we not only can, but SHOULD kill our neighbor if he's working on the Sabbath. And selling our children into slavery? That's just fine.

Yet, we don't do this. Why don't we? Because we've come to the conclusion as a group that it's just not right by moral standards. However, I do know several Christians who believe we should take everything the bible says literally, including all that stuff I mentioned above. Certainly, I don't believe that all Christians are like those few that I've met who believe this.

Why do you find it so hard to believe that Islamic EXTREMISTS are not like all Islamic people? Go to the streets of Iraq and ask people if they believe the things that your videos show. Sure, some of them might, but a large majority won't. Trying to make all Muslims out to be violent and jihadists is not being truthful. Many Muslims would like to live in peace, despite what the Quran says they should do, because they've grown as a people.

You say that this makes them not Islamic. I say that if you're not going around killing people for not believing in Jesus, you're not following what the Bible has said, and therefore aren't Christian.

We can either choose to believe that some parts of our Holy Books are just wrong by modern standards, or we can just all kill each other. But there are enough passages in the Bible that say that you should kill Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and other non-believers in Christ as the one true savior that you have to look in the mirror when making this choice. Don't label Muslims as something that you yourself could be labeled as.

You ask us to use magic to cure cancer, or to change the climate. Well, why don't you pray to God to cure cancer? Has he cured cancer yet? He hasn't? Oh, guess you're just as stupid or irreligious as we are then.

Frank, you a) just don't seem to get it.

As I said on the other board and here, repeatedly, and you've even said just now, but apparently without being able to see the hypocrisy, ...you want to blame all Muslims for the things you fear, and yet want exactly the kind of exemptions for yourself for what's done in the name of Christianity.

You keep insisting I find unacceptable things acceptable because I *won't* join in your hate or literalist thinking and double standards.

As for magic, I'm thinking the concept might just be a little too deep for you. It doesn't work that way. But certainly, coercive magic would be against our beliefs, not to mention that the *desire* to 'make everyone Pagan' is actually quite alien to our beliefs, if not just nonsensical.

As for 'not allowing global warming to happen,' well, we'll see about that. I'm certainly not allowing it to happen by hating my neighbor when I should be speaking to stop the ongoing environmental devastation. Even if it worked the way you seem to expect, you couldn't expect it to hold off the effects of ongoing actions to the contrary forever, could you?

The biosphere is a system of balance: one thing affects another affects another. Frankly, the physical capacity to put a billion years of carbon back in the ground doesn't exist as such.

Especially not when continuing to devastate the rainforests and oceans, and pumping ever more of the stuff into the air. ...while apparently expecting the effects to 'magically go away.'

Ok Frank,

First things first...
Context. So ALL Christians are snake handlers? All Christians pray to Mary? All Christains dunk in the river? It's all Context isn' it?

Frank there is over a BILLION Muslims.There are more of them then Christians. There are Muslim nations(predominatly) that are peaceful and modern. You want to put all Muslims in one basket and you are wrong. You are reading what the Koran says...but ignoring what the bible says. Both bible and koran are copies of the jewish old testiment.

In the bible it says that if you do not believe in that God you are to be killed... your land taken and your virgin daughters either married off to her Parent's killer or enslaved by them. Whole societies were killed...you see the mote in the Muslim eye but not in your fellow Christian's. That is being a hypocrite. Be open to all truth.

As far as Witches changing Global Warming or forceing peace and love...that is wrong on so many levels. Ever hear of ethics or the real?

Ok, I can not cause people to go against their free will...that is just against any ethical behavior. Manipulation is wrong. I know that it is handy to think that Witches can make mankind do what we want...but we can't. No more then you can pray Muslims out of existance, we can not magick stupid out of existance.

Humanity has to come to its own terms as far as how it wants to live or leave the world for it's children. Free will again. Do you want to have all the goodies more then you want a livable planet? That is up to you. We either work together to bring peace and livability, or we all will fall. No Witch can solve that, but we all can be the cure for the illness.

Frank, you and others laugh at us, because you do not know the truth from all the lies of the inquisition, B movies and bad books...you have a way to learn who and what we really are; our ethics and our beliefs... we are a different religion...we have different symbols, different connections to Deity, but we are not evil. No devil, no "supernatural" powers that come from worshipping a entity you call devil. We are normal people that feel the world in a different way.

We do have flakes, just like most other religions, we have those who do not want what we really are...they believe the hype and that is what they want. Most when they discover our truth they leave...it's too much work.

So Frank, go into history and learn of the policies that upset some muslims into violence. What they did was and is horrendous, but none of it came from nothing.

Learn about those who call themselves Witches...who we are, not the rumors.

Blessings,
terra

Gaby,
Debating Frank isn't really about Frank or Frank's attitude/paranoia. But it does aid in keeping my critical thinking/debate/apologetics skills sharp for when I encounter similar attitudes in face-to-face encounters.
Explaining things to people online and seeing them in text helps me to keep my ownfaith fresh and reminds me why I choose to live as I do and what I hope to accomplish by living my faith.
Namaste.

Well, PP...we Pagans keep our promises...lol

There are some good articles in Witchvox.
Defending the Faith:

http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=ustx&c=words&id=11674

Deity by any other name:

http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usmo&c=words&id=11638

If you Pagans have not yet read them you might be interested.

Blessings,
keir

Well, Terra, I'd gathered he wanted some attention, so I promised and gave him some. :)

Its not that Frank really cares about our religion or even the muslims...its that dear Frank wants attention. He quotes all kinds of things from some web site about the Muslim religion...taking things out of context. I mean there are scholars that have been studying the Koran, just like with the bible...and dear Frank thinks he can just copy verses without context and we are going to kowtow to his wisdom. Then there is his opinion of us...and he knows less about our faith then he does Islam...which is pretty darn little.

Frank,
I listen to Deity...I have a personal god that speaks to my heart. Now you can belittle that in your own mind, but darlin, it does not change me. I do not hate any Christians...most of my family is Christian, including my daughter, my Mother and my father. I just was born to be Pagan. Kind of like having red heair and brown eyes...It's just the way I am.

Many Blessings,
terra

Oh, and, you, too, Gaby. :)

I don't think you can really tell folks like Frank anything, but at the same time, it sort of shows us where the fearmongering goes.... Nowhere.

I'm still not sure of the 'logic' of trying to terrorize us into... well, I don't know what, really, especially when he himself demonstrates how quickly that kind of fear and xenophobia can turn right toward *us.*

Fear is the mind-killer, some like to say.

It's certainly where we seem to be seeing these stirrings of fascism at home: it's certainly a simplistic us-vs-them worldview that's led to a lot of grief, just lately, and while he's staring at films of terrible deeds, well, he's a)heling terrorize people, and b) diverting attention from us as Americans really taking accountability for what we're doing or not doing.

What we're not doing, really, is *laying the groundwork for peace in the nation and the world, * and not dealing with the environmental and resource factors that could easily render all this pretty moot, at least for most of us.

Paganplace,
You are right...I see our faith as a bulwork against the dehumanizeing that "some" followers of other faiths work to do. I see it as a way to bring sanity in the mindset of chaos. I also see it as the saving grace of this planet.

I have held onto my faith through loss and war...I have been alive too long and seen too much and my faith and gods have lent me strength and connection through it all.

I think that the belief that all life is sacred and not to be wasted is one that will save us all.

Gabby,
My husband says that I would argue a fence post into a toothpick if I thought I was right. lol.
Ware them down...!
lol.

terra

I think the real contest is between reason and compassion vs fear and fanaticism, Lepi.

I don't think the existence of war is any kind of challenge *to* our faith, but maybe a challenge *for* our faith: certainly mine's been with me through some bad experiences.

But it means people can do better.

Terra, Paganplace, Lepidopteryx, etal.

Why do you even debate this nincompoop Frank? He is as bad the the Islamic extremists he constantly berates.

May the Goddess be with you!

As I said on another board, since my faith is not in a god that exists outside the earthly realm and controls (or declines to control) human actions, but deities that are present in every breath I take, every bite of food I eat, every kiss from my daughter, every caress from my lover, every bird that comes to the feeder in my back yard, every half-eaten mouse with which my cat gifts me, and even every hornworm I pull off my tomato plants, it is impossible for me to lose it.
People sometimes make stupid decisions, and many more follow those who make stupid decisions. It does not change the core of my faith, which boils down to, in the words of a friend of mine - One - you are a part of something bigger than yourself. Two - be nice to each other." The fact that others are not being nice does not release me from my charge to do no harm. It also reminds me of my obligation to vote, and to put my money, my voice, and my actions where my beliefs are.

As to the question of working magickal protection for those you love who are in the military, even if you disapprove of the war, I don't see that as hypocrisy. My prayers are for the safety and well-being of those on both sides. A friend of mine was recently sent to Afghanistan, and I pray daily for her safe return to her son and daughter here.

The invasion of Iraq was never about "freeing" the Iraqi people. Even if you're willing to give Shrubya the benefit of the doubt enough to say that maybe he really did believe there were WMD's there, once it was known that there were not, that our rationale for being there was faulty, we should have pulled out. Instead, it has become, in the minds of many, The War against Islam. Given some of the religio-political rhetoric that has been uttered by the current administration, I don't think it's any accident. There are times when war is necessary and justified (although my belief is that the war in Iraq is neither), but there is never a time when war is holy.

Terra, we're not the ones with anything to answer for, here.

For those who have had things to say about Paganism, that it is a fraud or a con...

Maybe you need to tell this to the federal courts, the IRS, the Post Office, the veterans Association, and the military, and my clerk of court that accepts my Certificate of Clergy that makes me a state recognized minister.

Maybe you need to understand that just because you do not know about our religion does not make it wrong, only you ignorant. Now I am not saying you are ignorant for not knowing about the many religions that fall under the Pagan term, but with the internet you still post such mistaken facts. That, my friend, is ignorant, and prideful ignorance at that.

You obvieously have had no secondary education, or you went to a uncredited school...maybe Liberty? or Bob Jones?

When people are fighting and dieing in a war with Wiccan or Pagan on their dog tags, and they are fighting for the freedom that their religion teaches them to hold as dear as life...how can you say that that religion is a con? I am writing no books...I teach and do not charge, I am a leader and a recognized clergy and am not paid. Just as Starhawk goes all over the world to fight for equality and justice..she is not paid for that...yes she writes books. As do Christian leaders...should they not get paid? Does it mean that any Christian leader that writes a book is a con? are they only Christian to make money off of their books? You do not think things through do you?

I really felt angry when I was read some of these posts...then sad, after all trying to use facts and reason will not change minds that are not open. The falsehoods will continue. Suffer not a Witch to live has killed innocents. The stereotype of what a Witch is has ruined wonderful people. This is not trivia...this kind of "off the cuff poison" frustrates a common ground, and leads to harm.

I can only spin my wheels in trying to make myself and my co religionists understood. I hate the word tolerate...as an American I want more then to be put up with. But at least that is better then some of what we have had in the past.

terra

Thanks, Priver. I guess, speaking of names, I'm just trying to speak for a *place,* here.

It's a place I learned about from my people, not all of whom are Pagan.

But. it's our home.

Frank asks: before a link doubtless intended to traumatize:

"tell me - is this evil?"

I say, Tell me: Does it *have* to be?

Look at it.

In fact, tell me what you see.

What in the Holy Holly Hel do you think calling that 'evil' is supposed to do?

The people who *did* that thought they knew what 'evil' was, too.

They thought it was us. Because of what *you* say.

Certainly, if it's the atrocity I'm sure you're wanting us to look at again, you could do worse than have me in the room with a reasonably-serviceable pistol, or possibly a half-decent stick.

Your point?

'Evil?'

People seem to insist that Pagan vets who die *fighting* your 'War on Terror' are "evil."

What the heck is that word to you?

Frank?

You decided that since I won't agree that all Muslims must be evil because the Koran can be taken to say 'kill Paganplace in horrible ways.'
...unlike of course, the Bible, which in my personal experience has been taken by a certain number of American Christians to mean 'Kill Paganplace in horrible ways,' ..that I must therefore be 'Islamic' ...and thus, by your *idiotic logic* "evil."

I mean, I don't suppose it's ever occured to you that the fact you can't tell the difference between me and the people doing whatever that video shows, might just possibly be a *major functional interrupt in your sense of justice?*

This is not OK.

And you still have no plan.

Frank,
Maybe you need to take some history classes.
Frank-"and where is your proof that christ told anyone to murder and rape? where did jesus say that his religion needed to be spread by violence? if i remembert my history early christians did not have an army. i also remember that they used to throw christians to the lions for entertainment. where was their army then."

God tells his chosen people to kill whole populations, take the land and virgin daughters and either marry them or use them as slaves. Kills the first born children of Egypt. Frankly, Frank... you need some education. The Church destroyed a thousand years of knowledge when it destroyed the great library of Alexandria and killed its teachers and philosophers. One being, Hapatia (sp)a woman mathematician and philosopher whose father was the head of the library. The wonderful monks took Hypatia, striped her of her skin with sharpend clam shells...tore her limbs from her body and after puting her head on a spike and parading it through the streets, dumped her remains in a garbage pile. Then they burned scrolls and the library...then they went to the shrines and temples and took the sacred objects and statues melted things down and made things for their Christian churches.(So like everything else, they had to have Pagan gold to make their church.) They took the High Priest, an old man, from Demeter's Temple and killed him. Plus all the other priests and priestesses and killed them. Some temples were made into stables for Christian soldiers...some were turned into brothels.

The whole view that Christianity took over with no violence, that it was Pagans feeding the poor Christians to the lions while they were song singing innocents is Christian PR. Because facts say other wise.

There was a time I thought that they should have used more lions..but I have worked hard to say that those things were in the past and I am living in the now. But when those who are plainly ignorant of facts come in here and make such stupid remarks, it is a little upsetting. The one thing that Christians have always been good at, is revising history.

Do you know anything about your own religions history? Do you know anything about Pagan history or religions?

You are so down on Muslims and so think we must hate Christians because we try to be thinking beings. Do you know that there are Muslim nations that are modern and who has nothing to do with extremism? For instance Tunisia...look it up...it is the ancient place of Carthage and is in the middle of North Africa. They have free education for all people. They have a hard line anti fundamentalist government. They still have a way to go in allowing dissent, but they have a growing, modern economy. And no Bombs or war.They do have free votes and a modern political system.

This is one Muslim nation...not all Muslims are setting out to kill Christians. Hell it has nothing to do with your religion, except where your missionaries go into their nation and try to convert their people. They are pissed at our policies...policies that are against even our laws.

So Frank, why not see what is true instead of through your own fundamentalist eyes.
terra

But of course other questions are needed. You act as if no other group of people has taught its young to hate the enemies it is currently at war with and suffering casualties from. (and inflicting them as well of course). From the Palestinian perspective, they were invaded and displaced from their lands, and they are increasingly desperate and, one must admit, not very effective in all their efforts to recover their lands, or even maintain the ones they still have for that matter. I am of the opionion that the question the Palestinians need to ask themselves is if their terroristic tactics are actually working, and what besides a little revenge they feel they have accomplished. If you look even at something so crude as the total casualties suffered by both sides, you will find the Palestinians are loosing out. When people are desperatly fighting for their survival, they don't think so much about whether their tactics are evil, just as a starving person might not worry about stealing being evil. But the fact that their tactics have proven to be ineffective and that others might work, such as, oh, working out some deal where they admit that Israel is staying and they need to worry about surviving economically, that they might consider.

All that aside, I personally see no merit in brainwashing children to hate their neighbors, to love death more than life, and to see value as being present in some afterdeathly heavenly reward place rather than in the life they are preparing to live on this planet. Is that what you want to hear? Yes, the Palestianians are both wrong in their brainwashing of kindergardners and ineffective in their attempts to destroy Israel thru terror, and need to consider other options if they want to improve their lot in life.

Here is the post I was referring to. It was made by Terra on one of the other threads.

Crowley's law was, "Do what ye will, shall be the whole of the law." Not Gardener's 'An if it harm none do what ye will' which is opposite of Crowley's belief and way of life. Crowley was called The Beast...and whether he earned it or not he took pride in the epitaph. Crowley died in 1947...Gardner's book came out in 1954, after the Law against Witchcraft was repealed in England, after he had met Dorothy Clutterbuck in the New Forest and learned from her and her group about Witchcraft.

Crowley's magick was Ceremonial Magick, that is High Magick, it carries with it different traditions and rituals...it is mostly an off shoot of esoteric Christianity and ceremonial Egyptian Magick...believing in demons, angels and beings of evil. It is nothing like Wicca or any earth centered faith.

This is a sample of a Crowley invocation, a copy of Egyptian magickal invocation: 'so that every Spirit of the Firmament and of the Ether: Upon the Earth and under the Earth; on dry land and in the Water: of whirling Air; and of rushing Fire and every spell and scourge of God may be obedient to Me.'

The scourge of God he is talking about is the Christain god, not the God of our people. And we never demand for our Gods to be obedient to us. Our gods work with us, we do not treat them as servents, nor are we servents to them.

Crowly followed a mystery religion,OTO...but there are many mystery religions. There is a core that is in Paganism and the mystery religions, is it a surprise that those faiths that include those religions should have simularities? Does that mean that I a follower of one form of mystery religion should find it odd that I might have something in common with another? Did the mystery religion of Hecate take from those of Demeter?

Now if you want to go back to the ancient Mesopotamia, you will find much of what we practice. If you want to go to Babylonia you will see it, if you go to Ur, or even in the ancient Hebrew camps where the women would go into the hills on full moon nights and make offerings of moon Cakes and wine to the Queen of Heaven...who was Ishtar.

Just because those men of the early renewal of the esoteric religions know each other and that they all studied occult literature does not mean that what they found individually was hoccum. People interested in the same topic usually do cluster together. Those interested in birds might also be interested in seeds.
To equate Witchcraft with scientology shows your ignorance...like I said Study. And other then that, who asked for your opinion on our beliefs?

You also forget about The Golden Bough written by Frazier in 1896, long before Gardner. I also have a copy of the Psychology of Witchcraft 1924, Charles Leland's Gospel of Witches 1899 or Apuleius's Golden Ass written pre 158/9 AD, this is the only book of Roman-Greco times that has survived intact. It's like saying that Shamans did not exist, the Priestesses and Priests in the temples did not exist... there is not a thing in Wicca that was "created" whole cloth by modern man, including it's name. From the Athame, wand, cup and Pentacle to herbs, divination, Circles and rites they have all been from the beginning of time...transitioning and migrating but there.

Terra

Paganplace:

I can't help but admire the way you express what most of us feel when some people like these seem to enjoy telling us what we believe. (calling themselves Anonymous when criticizing our names? What's up with that, anyway? )

It's when I hear voices like yours and Terra, Lep, Starhawk and others that I know that there are real voices of reason out there who really are working to make a genuine difference. That's where I can take some hope from in the face of all their nastiness.

You have the Lady behind you in all your communications. May she continue to give you the patience, strength and will to continue the dialogue.

Blessed be. :)

I see there are people here attempting to belittle and slander that which they obviously do not understand, and have no knowledge of. I suggest that you find a college level religious history course and study. I have talked with lawyers, doctors, and yes even ministers who have taken these courses. The truth is that every known religion has its roots in Paganism.

I am not out to convert anyone here. I only wish to show that just because you don’t know or understand a thing does not make it fraudulent; that just because you haven’t been successful in turning us into hate mongers, resorting to scare tactics will work. Trust me when I say that we are very independent thinkers. It will take a lot of solid facts, not threats and innuendo, to change our thinking.

In actuality Pagans are a very diverse and extensive group. It is very possible that you know someone who is Pagan and you aren’t even aware of it. Most of us don’t go around announcing the fact because of the reactions of people like you. We raise families, love, laugh, and work, we feel pain and sadness, we have accidents, we endure illness and disappointment, and we mourn loved ones who are lost in wars just like you do.

In another thread there was a wonderful post dealing with Wiccan history. I will attempt to find it and post it here. Until then let me leave you with the following document. I hope this will help you to understand us a bit.

The 13 Principles of Witchcraft
In April of 1974, the Counsel of American Witches accepted the following as a basic set of principles agreed upon by Wiccans/Witches, no matter their tradition.

1. We practice rites to attune ourselves with the natural rhythms of life. Life forces marked by the phases of the moon and the Seasonal Quarters and Cross-quarters.

2. We recognize that our intelligence gives us the unique responsibility to our environment. We seek to live in harmony with nature, in ecological balance, offering fulfillment to life and consciousness within an evolutionary concept.

3. We acknowledge a depth of power far greater than that apparent to the average person. Because it is far greater than ordinary, it is sometimes called "supernatural" but we see it as lying within that which is naturally potential to all.

4. We conceive of the creative power in the universe as manifesting through polarity, as masculine & feminine, and that is the same creative power that lies in all people and functions through the interactions of the masculine and feminine. We value neither above the other, knowing each to be supportive of the other. We value sex as pleasure, as the symbol and embodiment of life, and as one of the sources of energies used in magickal practice and religious worship.

5. We recognize both outer and inner worlds, or psychological worlds sometimes known as the Spiritual world, the collective unconscious, inner planes, ECT. and we see in the interaction of these 2 dimensions for the other, seeing both as necessary for our fulfillment.

6. We do not recognize any authoritarian hierarchy but do honor those who teach, respect those who share their greater knowledge and wisdom, and acknowledge those who have courageously given of themselves in leadership.

7. We see religion, magick, and wisdom in living as being united in the way we view the world and the lives within it, a worldview and philosophy of life which we identify as Witchcraft.

8. Calling oneself "WITCH" does not a witch make, but neither does heredity itself, nor the collecting of titles, degrees, and initiations. A witch seeks to control the forces within her/himself that make life possible in order to live wisely and will without harm to others and in harmony with nature.

9. We believe in the affirmation and fulfillment of life in a continuation of evolution and development of consciousness, giving meaning to the universe we know and our personal role within it.

10. Our only animosity towards Christianity or towards any other religion of philosophy of life is to the extent that its institution have claimed to be "the only way" and have sought to deny freedom to others and to suppress other ways of religious practice and belief.

11. As American witches, we are not threatened by debates on the history of the Craft, the origins of various terms, the legitimacy of various aspects of different traditions. We are concerned with our present and our future.

12. We do not accept the concept of absolute evil, nor do we worship any entity known as "Satan" of "the Devil", as defined by the Christian tradition. We do not seek power through the suffering of others, nor accept that personal benefit can be derived only by denial to another.

13. We believe we should seek within nature that which is contributory to our health and well being.

Antaeus,

I had a member of my group in Iraq. She got home a few months ago, safe Thank the Goddess...

I did magick to protect her...I am against this war, but not against the soldiers or Iraqis lives.

Military Pagan Blessing
Powers of the ancient ways, in a place far from his/her home and family, I honor You and call upon You:

Powers of Earth, strengthen his/her physical body and the bodies of his/her peers and commanders.

Powers of Air, keep them vigilent at their post, mind clear and sharp.

Powers of Fire, give them courage, even when duty is hard or bitter.

Powers of Water, grant restful slumber and good dreams after a long duty day./

Powers of Spirit, balance him/her in honor, nobility and spiritual purpose.

Powers of Goddess and God and Their unity, Be with Him/Her, surround Him/Her, Bless Him/Her, and protect Him/her as he/she carries out his/her mission.
So Mote it Be!

We need to make sure that as many people survive this mistake as possible. I think it is right to send as much protection as possible to all there. Make a talismen and have the person carry it...Your careing will be with your friend. It can but help.

Goddess be with your friend,
terra

"the church father Augustine, who carefully pointed out that any suffering you could inflict on someone was as nothing compared to the suffering of hell,"

He also said that the 'chief delight' of the denizens of that Heaven was watching the torments of the 'damned.'

Frankly, if I were *that* self-centered, I think I'd rather be one of 72 virgins, or wait tables in Vanaheim, for that matter, :)

One thing I don't think some of these Christians understand is, *they're* the scared ones.

Just like their enemies may be.

A good plurality of modern Pagans came through the worst they could throw at us along those lines.

I don't think they really *understand* *not being scared that way.* Or, *not delighting in the torture of others* that way.

One thing they could learn from us, I think, is *not taking it personally* when you're 'chaff and goats' for the fires of Hell or something.

Not only does it get in the way of 'loving your neighbor,' but it can really screw up your fighting technique.

Wow, what a lot of exchanges in the few hours I was out.

Frank: You are correct, _Jesus_ did not advocate the use of violence. Instead he said to not resist evil, to return good for evil, and that to suffer persecution for him was the greatest thing you could do. Since it is obvious this is _not_ what you are advocating, I must assume your Christianity comes from other sources, like say the church father Augustine, who carefully pointed out that any suffering you could inflict on someone was as nothing compared to the suffering of hell, so if you could torture someone into converting it was to their benifit in the end. Or perhaps you are one of those Christians who still see some validity in the Old Testament, where God's commands to slaughter entire groups of people are common.

If this is not the case, if you take Jesus's command to return good for evil seriously, then what exactly _are_ you proposing be done to the more than one billion Muslims in the world?

I will be honest here--if I were in any of several Muslim countries, I would already be dead, either for practicing a forbidden religion, for advocating Policical freedom, or for being gay. This does not mean that I do not encounter problems and barriers in this country for all three of those things as well. In fact, I would like to say that I believe we should all become _less_ like the Islamic fundamentalists, but I fear there are many who want our country to become _more_ like them. Chuck Norris recently wrote an open letter to President Bush asking him to declare this a Christian nation and support the goals of the dominionists who want Christian fundamentalism to rule here as Islamic fundamentalism does in many nations. Can you not see how this would tend to make me very nervous?

And yes, I see the suffering that is inflicted on many in the Islamic world--to women especially, but also to gay men and to practitioners of native/minority/traditional religions, and to any who advocate freedom of thought and action. Now that I have admited that, what should I do? Should I ignore all other sources of suffering and pain in the world and blame it all on Islam? Well, I won't. I shall instead do whatever I can do in my own life to live in harmony with the earth and with those human beings I encounter in my life. I shall support and respect those people, be they of the economic, political, social, or religious fields, who seek to change the world in creative and practical ways to be more harmonious and sustainable. So that means I would support many of those imprisoned in Iran, for example, for working to bring greater freedom to that society. But somehow I don't think that is quite what you have in mind...but of course I could be wrong.

What _do_ you have in mind?

I mean, come *on,* here, Fye, Frank. Fox News, whoever. You want us to blindly follow some 'vision' with no solutions how *bad* the bad guys are, and how 'Good' America is,

Well, hey, you gotta do better than say, 'Hey, those Muslim countries would kill you. Be glad you live in a country where you're free to be ignored by the likes of me.'

We wanna talk about some liberty, let's see some liberty.

Speak it.

Got one guy here who thinks he's our 'Master' and Islamics if we won't call a third of the world 'evil' ..just like we're routinely-called without basis ourselves.

Got you ...again with no solutions, saying nothing in particular except we should say, 'Islam is bad.'

I'm like. 'Bad enough to say no to.'

I'm supposed to accept second-class citizenship cause I'm not straight, and be *totally* unrepresented in my own government cause only professing monotheists can be elected...

Then rely on your tender mercies after helping stir up some Christian jihad cause I saw some Youtube?

You have to do better.

For one. Stand with us as Americans who deserve equal rights,

For another.

Tell us what you propose to *do.*

I see no proposals of 'what to do,' Fye.

Frankly, allI see *between* the two of you and Frank is that I should *ignore* what I see done here in America in the name of Christianity, while looking at a couple YouTube videos of atrocity to 'be informed' about Islam.

You both seem to say we should hate Islam, but won't say *word one* about respecting our religious freedom here.

Why is that, I wonder?

What do you propose to do?

Paganplace:

I'm not blaming atheists. I find him intelligent and articulate with a wicked sense of humor even though I don't agree with him. I celebrate his right to turn the camera on himself and speak his mind and post it on the internet for all to consider.

I've already made my proposal to you. Keep yourself informed -it enables you to make better decisions. Be independent in your thinking.

Best wishes.

What do you propose to do, Fye?

Now blame atheists?

What's your solution?

Why won't your guys ever *say?*

Frank, is this you? : )

No, he's a British atheist..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhN6CG1zCRc&mode=related&search=

But I'll tell you this: If I were to judge Christianity by the standards with which you insist on judging Islam, ....and then calling me Islamic when I refuse to hate *them* by those standards....

Well, in light of what I've just said, ...how should I judge *your* religion?

Be *glad* I refuse to judge *people* that way.

You wouldn't be doing so well.

I challenge you to see that, and consider that we must, as Americans, keep our highest ideals. Not speak and act, well, ...stupidly out of our lowest fears, no matter how many atrocities those who would make hatred all too simple perpetrate.

You are clearly attached to an idea of 'Us Vs. Them' which can only bring more war and pain.

And, more importantly, no good end.

I know you're afraid.

As I said before, it's *not safe out there* in the world. You seem to be shocked and horrified that someone's holy book might be taken by some as reason to oppress or *kill* you.

I live with that every day, right here in America. It's not my neighbors who probably go to church every Sunday, but the one dude who feels so chickensh** and inadequate he needs an "enemy" to express power over, that I have to watch out for.

We must be brave, and *not* hate.

Make no mistake: if that's not what it means to be American anymore,

Well, then, by the Grey Eyed One, it's *damn* sure what it means to be an American Pagan.

Don't tread on me.

I've talked to you a lot, Frank. It's your fault if you can't read.

Cause, Frank, I hate to break it to you, *you're not my master, either.*

This is America. And I intend to keep her that way.

Even for you.

Try again, Frank.

I don't know how many times we have to point out for your denial that we'd be a lot more impressed with your vilification of Islam if you were willing to stand for justice in our own country, instead of just trying to portray *us* as the enemy, and then say 'Obviously, they're in league with the Muslims.'

Umm.

Can you *hear* yourself, here?

Anyway, Antaeus, I'd say that it's perfectly OK to be concerned with your friends. We can't always control the situation, but we're still people.

I mean, hey, ever hear that old saw, 'Be the change you want to see in the world?'

I think that's the *least* America can do, rather than *do bad and incompetent and expensive things,* while saying, 'Oh, well, the 'bad guys are *worse* so that makes it a good idea to continue doing *stupid things*'

If we're fighting for freedom in the face of religious tyranny, what are *you* doing to prevent it at home? Allying yourself with people who say, 'Wave a flag and a cross and figure anything attached to either of these things is 'good?''

Cast Pagans as unpatriotic and deny our veterans the right to be buried under symbols of our own faith for decades in order to 'prove' how unpatriotic we are?

Call us baby-sacrificers in the name of 'Just Informing' the faithful? No matter *how* many times these allegations are *disproven,* never mind what *we* say?

Is that what you want?

How about more people 'just informed' by their churches 'how evil' we are taking our kids away and/or not considering acts of domestic terror against us 'hate crimes?'

Is that America?

I mean, in me, you're trying to get me indignant about Islam when I've heard Bible verses on the lips of people trying to rape and lynch me.

It seems your only answer is 'Why don't you go to Arabia.'

What?

I say, *no.* This is important.

What. Do. You. Propose. To. Do.

Apart from maybe become what you fear.

Actually, I *asked* if you were Frank, cause I wasn't seeing any particular difference.

As for staying informed... Yes, it so happens I'm aware people are doing horrible things to each other.

What do you propose to do?

Paganplace:

You called me Frank and I'm not Frank (as we've both now told you).

"Call Islam evil"

I have not called Islam evil My position would be the same if the Vienna Boys Choir began suicide bombings and terrorist activities. It is the behavior that is offensive to civilization.

Here's a compilation of my posts:

I love our western civilization. I love our arts and literature and architecture. But most of all I love having the freedom to disagree and think things through and change my mind.

And BTW, I do not consider this a quarrel between religions. It is a contest between a mans right to autonomy, freedom of speech, freedom of religion -all the rights we take for granted- and the totalitarianism that has taken root in the world.

And you are right -it is the behavior that is aberrant and must be reasoned with or confronted -as it has been through the centuries.

"What do you propose to do?"

I propose you stay informed and seek truth and understanding in difficult times.

Best wishes.

For a little reference where I'm coming from, here, Fye, I thought we should have been doing something about the Taliban *long* before 9/11.

People who didn't want us to see the difference between *that* and Iraq by labeling all Muslims as 'terrorists' *didn't finish the job* there cause Bush wanted to assault Babylon or something.

We Pagans on this board are constantly impugned by people who think we should ...what, jump up and down and shriek down imprecations at Islam while Christians here in America don't treat *us* as 'Real Americans?'

People in such a hurry to say, 'Islam is evil, Christians are good' that they won't even *acknowledge* what is done to us here.

Frankly, I think that's all you're trying to prove.

Why should we believe you about Islam when you lie to our faces about *us?*

Sure, we'll defend America. But America has to *be* America.

That includes respecting *us* *and* all other loyal Americans, many of whom it so happens are Muslim.

You think we don't notice how much squalling goes on when a Christian missionary isn't allowed to disrupt someone else's country, ...yet when it's animists in Darfur or Gypsies in Bosnia getting killed, the silence is deafening?

Oh, not only do we want to *defend* America, we want to make sure she *is* America.

So, say it.

What are the real *standards,* here.

And what do you propose to do?

"Now Paganplace.

Who is paranoid and xenophobic? Go over to John Esposito's thread and read Frank's post after mine."

Point is, it's the same idea: Call Islam evil, threaten us, expect different results from doing the same things over and over.

It's not 'paranoid and xenophobic' to refuse to be inflamed to no good end by people who won't examine what *we're* doing.

What do you propose to do?

Now Paganplace.

Who is paranoid and xenophobic? Go over to John Esposito's thread and read Frank's post after mine.

I am not Frank.

And if you want something to ponder, -look how my first post on this thread has my second link with "fyi" added to the end of it and rendering it useless.

I'm not really what you'd call an isolationist, Fye, I just don't think that a war being 'justifiable' necessarily makes it smart or a good or helpful thing to do.

When people intend us to draw the association between atrocities abroad and some need to go on an ill-advised 'crusade' and indulge in xenophobia at home, I say 'No.'

If we're to fight, it must be with honor, with *brains,* and for real liberty, not to express *indignance* about some abstraction.

Pagans know all too well how quickly this xenophobia will turn, not even really against the Muslim world, but *us.* Cause it's part of a package with which we are all too familiar.

Paganplace:

"I hardly think I have to worry about my neighbors here in America being unwilling to defend against outside aggressors, ...I'd be right there with em."

"America concerned with securing and defending America alone" is a sentiment shared by many. My second link is Euro. I feel it is best to be well informed about what is happening in the world. And I admire the mostly young individuals who are exercising their freedom by putting their thoughts on the internet for all to consider.

Best wishes.

What do you propose to *do* about it, Fye?

Or should I say Frank. :)

I'm sorry, Antaeus, here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFsCZinp_gw

If there is another adjustment and you are unable to link -go to youtube and look up:

The Truth About islam for all to see

And you are right -it is the behavior that is aberrant and must be reasoned with or confronted -as it has been through the centuries.

You see, Fye, this 'War On Terror' does *not* mean there are always valid and achievable military objectives, however righteous one may be tempted to feel about administering a beatdown.

I certainly wouldn't say there's never a reason to *strike,* but if one takes this on, it must be done *effectively,* not screwed up and then 'defended' with ever-shifting excuses propped up by xenophobia.

I do not fear Muslims coming here to 'take over,' ...that's nonsense. Nor am I going to "go" to a country with Sharia law in order to, what, 'prove' that the abuse we take here is 'OK' cause it could be worse elsewhere?

What kind of ideal is *that?*

I hardly think I have to worry about my neighbors here in America being unwilling to defend against outside aggressors, ...I'd be right there with em.

I'm more worried about what the war and xenophobia has a way of turning *them* into.

Remember, Islam is some 600 years younger than Christianity. Exactly how tolerant was Christianity 600 years ago? What would (and did) happen to anyone who critisized or lampooned Jesus or even the Pope in Europe in the 1500's? If Christians and Jews still took the Bible as leterally as Islam took the Koran, they would have similar issues. From a my Pagan viewpoint, the differences between the philosophies and practices of the monotheistic religions is smaller than between all of them and Paganism. The problem with them all is that they see sacredness as outside of the Earth, outside of common sense and law, outside of themselves and other humans. (By the way, did you know that in Christian-dominated southern Africa, they are still torturing and burning people as witches? Here is a fun reference the Christians wrote to help them do so..way back in 1989. http://www.totse.com/en/religion/miscellaneous_religious_texts/africanpenteco173932.html

By the way, your second link did not work, so I can't comment on it. But I repeat my earlier question--exactly how do you propose to deal with this problem? Islamic intolerance is not why we are in Iraq, nor is it being lessened any by us being there.

The question, 'Fye,' is what to *do* about it.

Certainly, we live in a country supposed to *guarantee* freedom of religion, which seems all too willing to both allow itself to be incited to folly by acts of horror, as well as, apparently, try to call Pagans the enemy, such as we see with the bit of hatespeech from 'anonymous' up there.

Takes a bit of gall to try mocking someone for a name while taking none, himself, wouldn't you think?

Atrocity exhibitions don't make dumb policies any smarter. They're intended to *piss people off* into *doing* stupid things that play into the violent 'holy war' dynamic and erode support for the very freedom we hope to be promoting.

My above post was to Antaeus.

And BTW, I do not consider this a quarrel between religions. It is a contest between a mans right to autonomy, freedom of speech, freedom of religion and all the rights we take for granted and the totalitarianism that has taken root in the world.

As a pagan, you have no comment on the contents of the links? Only "I make it a practice not to get involved in quarrels between monotheists."

I'm afraid before this is over -it may involve you too or maybe you need to "move to a country in which paganism is illegal. Saudi Arabia comes to mind." as you've already suggested to another poster.

Its wise to seek truth, knowledge and understanding before speaking.

Best wishes.

Dear FYE:

Since none of the justifications used by any US officials for the war in Iraq include the destruction of Islam, what exactly are you proposing? Are you suggesting that all non-Muslims in the world go to war with all Muslims?

But at any rate, I make it a practice not to get involved in quarrels between monotheists.

Antaeus, Paganplace and all readers:

Please view the links in my post above and tell me:

Is there reason for just war?

I would say, Antaeus, that Pagan ethics call first and foremost for seeing a war for what it is, and the rest should follow... we learn a lot about the responsible use of power, whether it should involve battle, or, more likely these days, a deep commitment to peace.

Being able to call a war 'Just' simply isn't *enough* before taking that sort of thing on: you've got to be aware of what you're doing and how you go about it: we don't have the 'luxury' of just insisting 'these are the bad guys' and thinking that'll mean starting a war with no real plan is somehow a responsible action.

A major factor that led to us being in this *bad* war was the President's self-delusion about what would *happen,* which led to not only a bad choice, but bad execution.

I would say, too, Anonymous, that it's not a question of 'running away.' *We're* the big kids on the block, here, and mere stubbornness at doing the wrong thing won't help anything.

Frankly, on Iraq, what seems to be the case is that it's already something we screwed up, and it's way past time we as a nation stopped with calling our dissenters mere 'cowards' when *no one* has a plausible scenario for how all this *training insurgents to fight us* is going to help either us or the Iraqi people.

Right now we're just throwing huge resources and a lot of lives at a mess we created, instead of really taking a hard look at what we can do that's *effective.*

Dear Anonymous,

I'm afraid that in the United States of America, you do not get to decide what is a religion. If you dislike Paganism so much, feel free to either attempt to amend the Constitution, which I believe there is already a movement to change the 1st Ammendment to apply only to Christianity, or move to a country in which Paganism is illegal. Saudi Arabia comes to mind.

Aside from that, we're not going anywhere. Depending on which set of statistics you look at and how you interpret them, we are either the fastest or second fastest growing religion in the country. Might as well get used to us, or get used to being disgusted with us.

For your education:

I love our western civilization. I love our arts and literature and architecture. But most of all I love having the freedom to disagree and think things through and change my mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAYdcAnHoew

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFsCZinp_gwfyi

Terra:

I would agree with most of your points, and I would probably add the Civil War to the list of just wars, esp. after it became about slavery. (to begin with it was about succesion rights, and I'm enough of an anarchist to be persuaded that could theoretically have some merit). What about Afghanistan? They were openly sheltering and supporting the group that attacked us on 9/11. I realize the Bush regime has totally mishandled and botched the occupation of Afghanistan, but do you think it was justified to start with? I myself am quite conflicted about this, and have had some dissagreement with my leftist friends, who see no justification in it.

On another issue, if I were to do magick to protect my friend who is going to Iraq, and who by the way believes it is justified, would that be hipocritcal of me since I oppose the war itself? What if I (or anyone) were to go further and set up an altar to say, Mars, the Roman protector of farmers who became soldiers, that was for the protection of all American Soldiers? Would this be too pro-war? It tears me apart to see the stories of all those who have died in the war, but I am sure the stories of those killed by our soldiers, esp. the numerous innocent civilians, are just as tragic. I have already done and am doing all I can think of to oppose this war. What do you think are the Pagan ethics of this?

Thanks!
Antaeus

Antaeus,
I am anti war unless it is to save life. What is the best action? Is there no other way?

War can be a just action..as in our war of independence,as in the war of 1812 when we were invaded, as in WW2 against those who would kill a race, or force their idealolgy on others. I am like Barack Obama, I am against stupid war.

I honor Hecate, the Goddess of the Crossroad...we have a choice in our lives, what do we want it to stand for? We should look at the past, see what we learned and look to the future to make it better. Is that what we are doing? If the answer is no..then we are wrong.

There is always a blowback on actions...good or bane.

See I am old enough to remember the left overs from ww2. My dad was in what was then called Army Air Corp..what is now the air force. We were stationed in Tripoli, North Africa. Dad took me to Tunis where a POW camp was set up by the nazis. Dad took me in there and I saw where humans had been kept...I remember the smell and I also remember the bullet holes and the dried blood like rust stains against the white washed cement walls. You see they killed all the men in there when the Allies came to save them.

Long story but...we only can go by our experience. WW2 I believe was a necessary evil...to end a worse evil. Viet Nam was a wrong we committed, as well as Iraq is a wrong that will haunt us. We will have karma to pay for this.

terra

To redirect a bit back to the original question--how do those of us who are Pagan maintain our faith in the face of war? There are many Pagans serving in the armed forces, and I do know several Pagans who support this war. Myself, I'm afraid I was a hopeless lefty politically speaking long before I became Pagan, which probably is why I found Starhawks writings so very relevant to me as compaired to many of the other Pagan writers who were available in the 80's. But for the larger, mainstream Pagan community--is there a greater likelihood to oppose war, and to maintain our faith by doing all we can to oppose it? Those Pagans who support the war, do you find some conflict between that and your Pagan beliefs? Since there are God/desses of war in most Pagan pantheons, I would guess that many Pagans believe there is such a thing as a just war. Are there some who are purely pascifists, and if so do you still honor war deities?

The group I practice with tend to be rather anti most wars, including this one from the very beginning, but again inside my own head I'm not sure how much of that is related to my Paganism and how much to my leftist politics, esp. since like Starhawk I tend to blur the seperation between religion and politics (something we shudder at when right wing christians do it, but there you are.)

Anyway, I am interested in hearing some other Pagan perspectives on this issue.

Many Blessings,
Antaeus

Starhawk

One of the greatest benefits of this WaPo site has been getting to know your thoughts and beliefs.

I have yet to read you striking a wrong note. There aren't many writers here I can say that about.

For Centuries people thought monotheism was an advance over Paganism. Your principles and values and reason and spirit are a great advance over virtually every monotheist I have ever met.

Because of you, I have become a Pagan Buddhist.

Terra, best wishes and thanks to you as well for your wisdom and grace.

Many, you have been responded to most wisely and compassionately by the others here, so I will just second their points.

oops...

www.answering-christianity.com/iraqi_torture.htm

Horrible pictures of babies...in Southern Iraq after DU bombs.Now these are hard to see...a nightmare. But for those who say we are doing right in Iraq...you need to see what that means.

http://www.answering-
christianity.com/iraqi_torture.htm

Afghanistan is going through this also...

terra

Starhawk,

Namaste...

Mary,

Back in the 80's this country handed over to Saddam weapons of mass destruction...gas and biological weapons. He killed Kurds...Rumsfield goes and shakes Saddam's hand. After the fact.

We train Osama and his gang to kill...and give them the weapons to do it with. Why? because they are fighting the Russians and we want them to win.We are hand in glove with the taliban then. And don't give a fig about women then either.

They kill 3000 Americans and we don't go after Osama, we go after Saddam. And he hated Osama and all the Muslum fundies.

We build bases on Muslim land, land they call sacred. Do we learn? hell no..we build another base in Iraq, one that will house thousands of soldiers and will remain.

So how many of your people would you allow to be tortured by invaders? We are invaders...THIS administration lied to get into Iraq. LIED. Can anything good come from a foundation of quick sand?

As far as France helping us..that is true. But We started the fight for freedom. We gathered our fighters and we chose our generals and No French Generals led our soldiers or made our decisions...We went to France and asked for their help. Our political leaders met without a Frenchman to be seen. Americans took their lives in their hands and signed the Declaration of Independence. No Frenchman imprisoned George the third in London and hung him...so that they could force their idea of freedom on us.

There are two+ million Iraqis that have had to leave their homes and nation. Iraq history of 6000 years has been desimated. Thousands of girls and women have had to turn to sex work in other countries, because they have no way to care for themselves or families. We did this. We killed, tortured, we bombed joyfully (remember shock and awe?) What babies were under those bombs..ever heard what cluster bombs can do? Ever hear what happens with Depleated Uranium? Depleated Uranium is used to make bombs harder...to put it simply. When the bomb hits all these particles scatter...

DU weapons emit Alpha particle dose to a single cell from U-238 which is 50 times the annual dose level. Cancer is initiated with one alpha particle, its daughter isotopes effect generations as the isotopes bio-concentrate in plants and animals, and travel up the food chain. It is a nuclear weapon because the energy is derived from the nucleus of the atom. They enter the body through the lungs, the digestive system or breaks in the skin. One gram of DU releases more than 12,000 particles per second. The radiation slowly kills the cells that make life possible. The Gulf War syndrome of 1991 did just that ( reported by Dr Asaf Durakovic, Prof. of Medicine , Georgetown University, and discoverer of the Gulf War Syndrome.)

Have you seen the babies born after the mothers have been involved with DPU? I have seen the pictures. Babies without eyes, legs, with stomaches where the throat should be...black and bloated...So I wander which is worse, the rape rooms or the millions of babies, that our invasion of Iraq and our use of DPU in all the middle east, will cause a short horrendous life or the happier ones that will be born dead?

And the winds gather those particles and sweep them up to a 1000 miles or further...so how will you like to have your child drink a glass of water or milk that has partilces of dust of DPU in it? How about our soldiers? What is going on in their bodies? How will the genetic changes in their cells affect their offspring?
http://www.thepowerhour.com/articles/du_effects.htm
Read about what is going on and what will happen. George Bush and all those who used DPU are killers...they are killers. But the worse are those who knew what would happen and let it happen anyway. I saw what had happened after 91, the babies that were born..a doctor sent me the pictures...I got sick. Bush knew.

Mary...too many are ignorant of what is going on. Too many held up their fingers, like they where in some bloody football game...We are number 1...Hurray!!...and people were dieing. Men, women, children...unborn babies...dead, mutated for generations. For what? A LIE! and you can feel good that Saddam was hung. Somehow I wonder if the people in the middle east will think the freedom they have is worth it.

terra

I knew Starhawk would be commenting on this issue, since she is probably just as famous for her political activism as she is for he leadership in the Pagan community. I have also noticed that she receives some static in both communities for her activities in the other.'

Mary, I must point out one significant difference between Iraq and the American Revolution. We started that Revolution on our own, and then sent our most brilliant mind and respected diplomat, Benjamin Franklin, to France to beg them to assist us. Which they didn't do until we had won a couple of victories to prove to them we had a chance to survive. How is this similar to the Iraq situation? We have already overthrown their dictator, and they have chosen of their own will to fight each other rather than work together for their mutual benifit.

And since the principal reason we invaded Iraq was not to assist them in attaining democracy, but to stop the production of weapons of mass destruction that were never there to start with, why are we still there? I have a good friend who is about to go over for the second time, and he still firmly believes it is necesary, that if we were not fighting them over there we would be fighting them here. He openly admitted that the main reason to be there was so soldiers could continue to be killed, so the extremists who wanted to kill Americans would at least be killing soldiers who were prepared to die for their country, rather than commming over here and killing civilians. At what point in time would this no longer be true? Until there is no more Islamic extremeism? How long do we think that might be?

So Mary, I guess my questions to you would be--What would victory in Iraq look like? When would our troops be leaving, and with what pre-conditions? And most importantly, how likely do you think we are to achieve that victory and meet those conditions?

Mary, I hope the benefits you list will turn out to be the real outcomes of this war. So far it's not looking too good for ordinary Iraqis. This gun barrel diplomacy is something like coerced religious conversion. We are reaching out to share a way of life that we know is good, but we may not be able to achieve it by these means....

Maybe you need to look at some of the positives of this war, instead of all of the negatives.

Sometimes to preserve the freedom and rights of people war is a necessary evil.

Look at all the killing etc going on in Irag before the war.

Now we have taken them this far, give them the chance to except the freedom they have and the rights they can now enjoy.

If you lived in Irag under Sudam you would not have been able to voice your opinion with out suffering the consequences.

What about the benefits this has brought to the Iragi children and women. Have you talked to the majority of our soldiers serving there rather than the minority.

Look for the positives not the negatives. WHERE WOULD AMERICA BE NOW, IF FRANCE HAD NOT HELPED US?

Wake up and enjoy the good things.